Counting in a tune
bassman2
the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute sense of
timing?
Also, how would you count in an "odd" time signature, such as 9/8?
Vince
Toby Gray
tune. Everyone is responsible for keeping good time. Drummers get the
honor quote often because they are central stage usually and everyone
can hear them plus they often have the mis-conception they are in
charge of time and often wrongfully get the blame if things speed up
or slow down. If the tune is new let the vocalist count it off since
they have them most at stake.
Odd meter count off should be at least discussed if not rehearsed
before a gig. 9/8 depending upon how it is broken down (3-3-3,
2-2-2-3, 5-4, etc), I would start with the leading sub count if not
the whole measure.
For fans of odd meter should dig out a copy of Don Ellis' Electric
Bath LP :-)
Toby
sln
> Who generally does this in your band, the drummer (usually by hitting
> the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute sense of
> timing?
Drummer for us usually, tho' sometimes guitar, especially if the song
opens with guitar before drums come in.
> Also, how would you count in an "odd" time signature, such as 9/8?
Depends on the feel of the song, sometimes 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3, sometimes
1--2--3--.
No firm rules for anything here...
sln
--
======================================================================
Mr. Shannon Nelson Parents can't afford to be squeamish.
sln - at - onemain dot com
BW
If I'm singing the lead, I like to count it in. Which is not to say
it's always flawless, but I have a tempo in my head (along with the
voices), and that's how I want to do the tune. I might adjust for the
future if it's not all I was hoping it'd be.
Whether or not the drummer counts in (in general) depends on the
drummer. I've worked with some who I wouldn't trust to count in
anything. Others who are so perfect that I trust them completely.
They're metronomic. I like it when I work with one of those. Takes all
the responsibility off the rest of the band, and I have complete
confidence it'll be great.
By the way, in symphonic circles, the orchestra might get less than a
beat and they're expected to pick up the tempo. With a decent orch, it
works. (Not to belabor the point, but an example: Beethoven's Fifth
Symphony begins on the "and" of "one", and the conductor will often
just give the downbeat. That means you get a half a beat to lock in.
Beautiful.)
BW
eadg
news:73e38408-9c16-497a...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> Who generally does this in your band, the drummer (usually
> by hitting
> the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute
> sense of
> timing?
Varies quite a lot with me. With like minded musos a hit on a
snare is sometimes enough to launch into 200+ bpm mayhem.
Otherwise, most commonly (if it's not the bandleader),
whoever has a 'feel' for the next song you're going to play.
I _love_ a good count in btw.
> Also, how would you count in an "odd" time signature, such
> as 9/8?
>
> Vince
1-2-3,123, or 3 bars of 2 and one of 3. 'Blue Rondo A La
Turk' springs to mind...lovely transition into 4/4 for solos
too.
--
SR
bassman2
> By the way, in symphonic circles, the orchestra might get less than a
> beat and they're expected to pick up the tempo. With a decent orch, it
> works. (Not to belabor the point, but an example: Beethoven's Fifth
> Symphony begins on the "and" of "one", and the conductor will often
> just give the downbeat. That means you get a half a beat to lock in.
> Beautiful.)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I was thinking of starting a thread on the topic of classical
musicians and the role of the conductor when it comes to timing...Is
the conductor's role (amonst others) to give the orchestra clues on
how to interpret the music, and how do they look at the conductor AND
the score at the same time? Apologies for my lack of knowledge here, BW
BW
Never apologize when seeking knowledge! (I guess that depends on the
kind of knowledge you're seeking, but you're safe here).
The conductor is controlling everything, and the group is performing
what the conductor has in his/her head. You can find different
versions of standard repertoire with very different tempos, different
dynamics, etc. The conductor is dictating it all. It's really quite
fascinating. I suggest you go to your library and take out some CDs of
the same work by different orchestras and catch some of the
differences. Interesting stuff.
As to how the players see the conductor, it's done peripherally. Like
driving down the street and (hopefully) seeing a kid running out from
between parked cars. You're not looking at or for the kid, but you see
him. With orchestras, you generally position your music stand so the
conductor is just above the music. You never have to look at him
directly, but he's clearly in your range of vision. When I do an
orchestra gig, I insist on my own music stand for this reason. I don't
want to compromise the positioning.
It's a good question, and I hope I answered it for ya.
BW
Les Cargill
> Who generally does this in your band, the drummer (usually by hitting
> the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute sense of
> timing?
The right answer is almost always "drummer clicks sticks". It is
never "guitar player starts song" ( unless the song is "Rocky
Mountain Way").
> Also, how would you count in an "odd" time signature, such as 9/8?
>
Oddly.
> Vince
--
Les Cargill
Gary Rosen
"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hhrabh$u43$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
> bassman2 wrote:
>> Who generally does this in your band, the drummer (usually by hitting
>> the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute sense of
>> timing?
>
> The right answer is almost always "drummer clicks sticks". It is
> never "guitar player starts song" ( unless the song is "Rocky
> Mountain Way").
If the song starts with a guitar intro, the guitar player should
just play it, and he *should* be playing it at the right tempo.
- Gary Rosen
theclyde
With the project I am currently in, the guitarist/singer starts all
the songs. After a few bars, myself on bass and the drummer on drums
come in.
Steve Freides
One hopes that whoever can do the job best in each band is the person
chosen to do it. In the jazz combo I'm in, in which I play keyboards
while my son plays trumpet, I count everything because it just works
better when I do. A bit of trial and error and we figured that out.
-S-
Steve Freides
Just to add a bit to what BW said, try this little experiment: pick a
magazine article with a page turn in it, and start reading out loud a
few lines before the end of the first page. Note the spot where you are
actually speaking when you turn the page, and repeat this process a few
times. You'll notice that, even if you didn't turn the page early
("early" meaning before you actually reached the end of the page) on the
first reading, you almost certainly turned it early on the third or so
try.
This means that you have the ability to effectively memorize a bar or
two or more ahead of where you're playing - music works the same in this
regard as does English. Thus, one of the things that happens, in
addition to seeing the conductor peripherally, is that you actually
watch him or her when you know what the upcoming notes are and you've
realized it's an important spot in the piece for you to watch the
conductor so that everyone plays together.
A good ensemble musician must look at the conductor _and_ use his or her
ears to listen to the other players since there is sometimes a lag
between the conductor's gesture and when the musicians actually play
what was just signalled.
You would enjoy, if you can avail yourself of the opportunity, attending
a rehearsal of a symphony orchestra. Sit near the front.
-S-
Derek Tearne
> This means that you have the ability to effectively memorize a bar or
> two or more ahead of where you're playing - music works the same in this
> regard as does English.
The real trick, though, for reading musicians, is to turn the page while
still playing a complex passage on tempo.
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S - improvisation from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
bassman2
> It's a good question, and I hope I answered it for ya.
Most certainly! Thank you
bassman2
> You would enjoy, if you can avail yourself of the opportunity, attending
> a rehearsal of a symphony orchestra. Sit near the front.
>
rehearsal but now that you have mentioned it (good idea!) I'll look
into it!
Thanks
bassman2
>
> The real trick, though, for reading musicians, is to turn the page while
> still playing a complex passage on tempo.
>
presumably this is because they don't have a "third" hand...
Misifus
It's also why the "Second Chair" players get to do the page turning for
the first chair players. :)
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
Mike Fleming
<d426860d-db3a-408d...@35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
bassman2 <vince_an...@hotmail.com> writes:
> I was thinking of starting a thread on the topic of classical
> musicians and the role of the conductor when it comes to timing...Is
> the conductor's role (amonst others) to give the orchestra clues on
> how to interpret the music, and how do they look at the conductor AND
> the score at the same time? Apologies for my lack of knowledge here, BW
Possibly less than they think (or than the audience think).
I had assumed that the conductor was the sole arbiter of tempo, until
hearing a very recent episode of "Desert Island Discs" [1] with an
operatic director, John Copley. He revealed that in one production,
the conductor was conducting because he'd put up the money for the
production, and he was crap. So the mezzo-soprano wore a tap shoe, and
tapped out the beat, and the orchestra followed her. Then all the, er,
vocalists [2] followed her example.
[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qnmr and you should be able to
hear it if you're quick enough
[2] Or voxists, if you prefer
--
Mike Fleming
Mike Fleming
<73e38408-9c16-497a...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
bassman2 <vince_an...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Who generally does this in your band, the drummer (usually by hitting
> the sticks together) or the person that has the most acute sense of
> timing?
If it's a song we all start together, the drummer. If it's a song that
one instrument starts, it's them (it's nice to actually get to do the
timing when we do "Dancing in the moonlight").
> Also, how would you count in an "odd" time signature, such as 9/8?
Ah, that's the ceilidh band. Our melodeon player starts all our tunes
with a 2-bar lead-in. We have no drummer, so that's not an option. As
the lead-in goes something like "Deeee diddly-diddly diddly-dee, dee
diddly diddly diddly dee" [1][2], we pick up the timing from that, and
if an extra crotchet comes up now and again (as it does), we just take
that in our strides.
[1] I hope you took note of where the hyphens were, they're very
significant for the timing.
[2] My inability to read music isn't a disadvantage, I've never had
any chord charts for the tunes, and neither has the guitarist. It's
great fun, liberating, and at times a little random.
--
Mike Fleming
BW
> In article
> <d426860d-db3a-408d-b69a-2d5dd16d4...@35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> bassman2 <vince_angelon...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > I was thinking of starting a thread on the topic of classical
> > musicians and the role of the conductor when it comes to timing...Is
> > the conductor's role (amonst others) to give the orchestra clues on
> > how to interpret the music, and how do they look at the conductor AND
> > the score at the same time? Apologies for my lack of knowledge here, BW
>
> Possibly less than they think (or than the audience think).
>
> I had assumed that the conductor was the sole arbiter of tempo, until
> hearing a very recent episode of "Desert Island Discs" [1] with an
> operatic director, John Copley. He revealed that in one production,
> the conductor was conducting because he'd put up the money for the
> production, and he was crap. So the mezzo-soprano wore a tap shoe, and
> tapped out the beat, and the orchestra followed her. Then all the, er,
> vocalists [2] followed her example.
>
> hear it if you're quick enough
>
> [2] Or voxists, if you prefer
>
> --
> Mike Fleming
Really, Mike, how often do you think that happens in professional
classical circles? I'm gonna guess virtually never. Often those with
money can start a project and do what they want if they're paying the
bills, but this is so rare that it's virtually non-existent. I've
played in perhaps a dozen or more classical orchestras over the years
and every conductor has known what they were doing, and were
completely in charge.
I'll share this, though, on an "anecdotal" level. I play in a big band
weekly and when I joined, the "conductor" (note quotation marks) was a
musical imbecile. The best example: he'd count a waltz in "1-2-3-4".
No kidding. He really knew NOTHING about music. The bottom line is
that I refer to him in past tense. He lasted for a while due to
sympathy from the players. He was old and lonely, and this community
band was his outlet. We tried to help him understand music, but when
that didn't work, he was gone. And that wasn't a professional
organization.
TM
> the first chair players. :)
Which begs the question.....why in orchestral settings are musicians
not required to memorize the music?
In many other forms (rock, fusion, jazz) the arrangements and parts
can be equally as challenging but when's the last you saw a band of
the genre with sheet music in front of them.
Steve Freides
>> It's also why the "Second Chair" players get to do the page turning
>> for the first chair players. :)
>
> Which begs the question.....why in orchestral settings are musicians
> not required to memorize the music?
>
> In many other forms (rock, fusion, jazz) the arrangements and parts
> can be equally as challenging
Uh, I don't think so.
> but when's the last you saw a band of
> the genre with sheet music in front of them.
When was the last time you saw a big band, e.g., Lincoln Center Jazz,
_not_ playing with music in front of them?
And, now that I'm through telling you you're full of s#$%, we might
consider how many people play each part. If it's one on a part - think
rock band or jazz trio/quarter/quintet - it can be OK if you don't do
the same thing every time. OTOH, try that with a couple of dozen
violins supposedly playing the same part.
Rock is equally challenging, GMAFB, please. The answer is "size of the
group" and "type of music."
-S-
Derek Tearne
> > It's also why the "Second Chair" players get to do the page turning for
> > the first chair players. :)
>
> Which begs the question.....why in orchestral settings are musicians
> not required to memorize the music?
Firstly, why on earth should this be a requirement in *any* form?
Playing from music is not necessarily any better than playing the same
piece from memory.
> In many other forms (rock, fusion, jazz) the arrangements and parts
> can be equally as challenging but when's the last you saw a band of
> the genre with sheet music in front of them.
I have to ask what your experience of orchestral settings is? Thinking
about it, I'd also have to question your experience of jazz as sheet
music and charts are far from out of place in many jazz settings.
One very big difference between rock/fusion/jazz settings and orchestral
settings is that the contemporary music ensemble will usually have a
repertiore of maybe three hours of concert ready music at a given time.
An orchestra will have a vast repertoire of music - with most pieces
being at least 20 - 40 minutes long. They will generally play these
pieces a very small number of times in a concert series and then move
onto the next symphony etc.
A busy orchestra can play more hours of different pieces in a season
than musicians in many popular forms would play in an entire career.
Consider something like the promenade concerts - an annual summer series
of over 80 classical concerts in the UK - mostly at the albert hall and
mostly played by the same orchestra. Can you imagine how many notes it
would be to memorise the entire repertiore for even one season? Some
of the more experimental music played at the proms may never be played
again and the ink may still be wet on the scores.
Now, for many classical concerts there will be a named/featured soloist
- who may not be a regular member of the orchestra - and they *will*
usually have memorised the pieces being played - but usually they will
have a relatively limited repertiore of tunes that they specialise in in
this way.
Consider an analogous situation in Jazz, a visiting artist gets locals
to play - in this situation you will usually see music stands in front
of the locals. In fact big band / large repertoire ensembles work like
this in almost all musical forms.
Reading allows competant musicians to play a larger repertoire, of more
complex music, accurately (very important if you have ten people playing
the same part) with significantly less preparation (where less could be
zero).
Derek Tearne
> Firstly, why on earth should this be a requirement in *any* form?
> Playing from music is not necessarily any better than playing the same
> piece from memory.
I meant that to be the other way around - but the point still stands I
guess - there isn't anything inherently better or worse about either way
of playing.
BW
The only advantage to playing from memory, and this ONLY applies to
small ensembles (rock or folk group, for instance) is audience
communication. If you're staring at a music stand, you can't be
relating to the audience members as well. However, in orchestral
settings, this is a non-issue.
We've talked about the quantity of music an orchestra plays in a
season, but one thing that hasn't been touched upon (much, if at all)
is the detail of that music. Even if a player could/would memorize the
notes, there's a detail to classical that exists almost nowhere else,
and the average rock player has absolutely no idea! Dynamics, tempo
changes, bowing (for some), phrasing (for all). It's an amazing ocean
of tiny details that can't be ignored. This is one of the reasons I
love to play it and find it challenging/satisfying.
This has been mentioned before, but is worth an additional mention:
attending an orchestral rehearsal is worth it's weight in gold for
someone who is interested in expanding their horizons. In NYC, the NY
Philharmonic has some open rehearsals, and you can't spend a more
fascinating few hours. In fact, attending a good college orchestra
rehearsal might be more accessible. I'd also recommend for those who
can read music (not to open THAT can of worms again, but here's an
example of why it's an advantage), I'd recommend picking up a mini-
score for the work that's being rehearsed. Not expensive. It's what
the conductor sees on his/her music stand. Every part, notated. That
alone should answer some questions.
BW
Steve Freides
And, we should also add, there is a wonderful tradition of volunteer
community bands and orchestras. Most concert bands, although they are
winds, brass, and percussion, also have a single upright bass player - a
great way to get some regular chops time for anyone new to playing
upright and who can read music.
-S-
Benj
The rule is: With suction all things are possible!
I once was privileged to attend a rehearsal of the Cleveland Symphony
with Stravinsky himself conducting his own works. What an education
that was! The guy was like a million years old and could barely walk
but once he got the stick in his hand he was like God on the podium!
Wow.
eadg
"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1jc02mr.1hx6cztjq07kuN%de...@url.co.nz...
> TM <t...@themorgans.org> wrote:
>
>> > It's also why the "Second Chair" players get to do the
>> > page turning for
>> > the first chair players. :)
>>
>> Which begs the question.....why in orchestral settings are
>> musicians
>> not required to memorize the music?
(snip)
> Consider an analogous situation in Jazz, a visiting artist
> gets locals
> to play - in this situation you will usually see music
> stands in front
> of the locals. In fact big band / large repertoire
> ensembles work like
> this in almost all musical forms.
If there's any such 'payment' for learning to read I got mine
with a big band I was in a while back, backing up Bobby Shew
and later, Lasse Lindgren, two top trumpeters. In both cases
we had the charts a few weeks prior to the gig for rehearsal.
I also learned a 'h7' is a 'b7' in Swedish ;)
>
> Reading allows competant musicians to play a larger
> repertoire, of more
> complex music, accurately (very important if you have ten
> people playing
> the same part) with significantly less preparation (where
> less could be
> zero).
>
> --- Derek
Exactly, and to re-address the OP's thread, the count ins on
those occasions were given by the artist, not the bandleader,
and boy, was I happy about that. It does make a difference
for really fast/slow/cut time tempos.
--
SR
BW
Wow is right. Must have been a memory to last a lifetime. I've seen
Bernstein at rehearsal, but that's as close as I've come to a
Stravinskyesque legend. Lenny was pretty close, but not Igor. Or is
that "eyegore"?