Tube Rattle? Something else?
stki...@duke.edu
Hey all -- I'm having a problem with my
Rivera R30-12. When I play certain tones on
my guitar, there's a zingy, sound coming from
the tubes, themselves -- not through the speaker,
AFAICT, although I can still hear the sound even
at loud practice volumes.
The sound seems to be similar to that that you'd
hear shaking a light-bulb. Very annoying. When
I describe the problem to people, they say: "Oh,
one of your tubes is microphonic," or, "Oh,
you have tube rattle." ?
The thing is, this is the second set of power tubes
I've put in the amp. Am I just getting bad tubes?
Is something loose?
Thanks
Steve
Jeff Liberatore
Jeff
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aamdkj$m95$1...@news.duke.edu...
Kent Pearson
On 30-Apr-2002, "Jeff Liberatore" <jlib...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> If they're EL84's, get used to changing them.
I'm sure that's not real encouraging for the guy to hear. Why is that? Why
would they need to be changed more often than any others?
Kent Pearson
stki...@duke.edu
> If they're EL84's, get used to changing them.
No. On the assumption you were actually trying to help:
the amp is powered by a pair of EL-34's, and
the preamp tubes are 12AX7'S.
Steve
TD Madden
google-search will probably help.
"Kent Pearson
Jeff Liberatore
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aamicn$o7p$1...@news.duke.edu...
I was "actually" trying to help... I eat EL84's alive in a Vox AC15. Of
course it's class A. (i was empathizing) Didn't know much about the Rivera.
Lots of 30 watt amps employ EL84 power tubes. I haven't found a set that
didn't rattle for about 3 or 4 years. I only use it for studio use too.
I apologize for my assumption. Please carry on. I should have researched it
first. You know what they say about ASSUME.
My main amps are Marshalls, which (mine) all use EL34's... Never had a
problem getting good EL34's recently.
What kind of EL34's have you been buying? And where have you been getting
them?
--
Jeff
http://www.mp3.com/JeffLiberatore
http://members.cox.net/jeffliberatore/
http://www.thejack.com
>
>
> Steve
stki...@duke.edu
> I apologize for my assumption. Please carry on. I should have researched it
> first. You know what they say about ASSUME.
> My main amps are Marshalls, which (mine) all use EL34's... Never had a
> problem getting good EL34's recently.
> What kind of EL34's have you been buying? And where have you been getting
> them?
Hey, Jeff -- I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in my question.
First, is this symptom what's described as "tube rattle?" Ie,
the tube seems to make a noise (not through speaker) in some
kind of weird, harmonic sympathy with certain tones?
Originally, the amp had Sylvania (I think) tubes. Sounded
great. Then they rattled, and I replaced them with some
tubes from "www.thetubestore.com" -- Svetlana's, I think.
I didn't notice the problem, when I first changed tubes.
Now I do. <sigh> Is it just the tubes? Something else?
Chris Mohrbacher
else, like a metal grille, bracket, plate, chassis... something mechanical.
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aamdkj$m95$1...@news.duke.edu...
Miles O'Neal
|The thing is, this is the second set of power tubes
|I've put in the amp. Am I just getting bad tubes?
|Is something loose?
What about the preamp tubes? Why
do you assume it's the power tubes?
Microphonic preamp tubes are a
bigger problem, because any rattle
from them gets amplified by every
stage after the tube that's rattling
(shaking, humming, whatever).
Jeff Liberatore
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aamtm8$t6e$1...@news.duke.edu...
> Jeff Liberatore <jlib...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I apologize for my assumption. Please carry on. I should have researched
it
> > first. You know what they say about ASSUME.
>
> > My main amps are Marshalls, which (mine) all use EL34's... Never had a
> > problem getting good EL34's recently.
>
> > What kind of EL34's have you been buying? And where have you been
getting
> > them?
>
> Hey, Jeff -- I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in my question.
> First, is this symptom what's described as "tube rattle?" Ie,
> the tube seems to make a noise (not through speaker) in some
> kind of weird, harmonic sympathy with certain tones?
I would characterize it as "tube rattle" by your description... Except, when
I think of "tube rattle", I'm not hearing anything harmonically sympathetic.
I'm hearing some sort of vibration sound you might liken to a funky sounding
tambourine inside there. Not the same sound as a microphonic tube, which can
be squealy sounding. Maybe you have some loose screws in the head (haha)
somewhere and certain frequencies are freaking something out.
I use to have a Marshall 4X12 cab, that at a certain volume, would make the
cab handles rattle... Took me forever to figure it out! This type of thing
could be a possibility, eh? So, it COULD be anything.
> Originally, the amp had Sylvania (I think) tubes. Sounded
> great. Then they rattled, and I replaced them with some
> tubes from "www.thetubestore.com" -- Svetlana's, I think.
> I didn't notice the problem, when I first changed tubes.
> Now I do. <sigh> Is it just the tubes? Something else?
I think it's the tubes... There are REAL tube aficionados that will be here
when they get home from work (I'm off sick), and they will probably tell you
it's the tube too. I like the Svetlanas, and never had any troubles. In
fact, I can't remember the last time I had an EL34 that did that. They
typically just start fading out...
muse
If you have those spring clip things, make sure they are
bent out so the spring cant vibrate against the tube. I had
some 6550s in a Marshall that did the same thing. It was one
of the springs that would vibrate against the tube. I bent the
little spring clip out a little and it fixed the problem.
stki...@duke.edu
> I think of "tube rattle", I'm not hearing anything harmonically
> sympathetic. I'm hearing some sort of vibration sound you might liken
> to a funky sounding tambourine inside there.
Yes!! That's exactly how I'd describe the noise.
If I unplug a power tube and flick it with a finger, I hear
this tambourine-sounding noise, but it just lasts a second.
With the amp powered on, certain sounds -- especially with
pre-amp gain -- cause this tambourine-sound to occur. I
swear, if I paid attention, I could almost tell you what
*notes* cause this to happen.
Maybe I shouldn't have said it's *that* loud, but I
can clearly hear the noise playing the amp at medium
household volumes. It's surprisingly piercing.
The EL-34's are not secured with a clip, and I've
seated/reseated them. The preamp tubes are covered
by some kind of weird tube stuffed with...?....
I guess I can buy some more tubes, and try them,
but I hate ordering yet another set, when I already
have two pairs -- one US-made. :(
I think I'll have my long-suffering wife put on a hot mitt,
then get naked, and -- no. The devil made me say that.
Put on a hot mitt, and grab the tubes, while I'm playing.
See if that doesn't stop the rattle. Then I'll at least
*know* if it's the tubes, right? <sigh>
You know, it's really quite a nice-sounding amp, IMO,
but with its "American" and "British" channels, it makes
me wish for a REAL Marshall, and a REAL Fender, instead of
something that's "both."
Miles O'Neal
you can also try removing those and
using some silicone (LV has mentioned
thex exact type, try a google search)
on the bases to hold the tubes quietly
in place.
Although with decent sockets, I have
never had a tube fall out, and I don't
use retainers.
Kent Pearson
On 30-Apr-2002, stki...@duke.edu wrote:
> I'm hearing some sort of vibration sound you might liken
> > to a funky sounding tambourine inside there.
>
> Yes!! That's exactly how I'd describe the noise.
>
> If I unplug a power tube and flick it with a finger, I hear
> this tambourine-sounding noise,
Now, if you could just give the preamp tubes some maracas . . . . the
speakers some bongos . . .
(oops, sorry . . . don't let me interupt ;-))
~kp
Jeff Liberatore
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aan0av$12l$1...@news.duke.edu...
> Jeff Liberatore <jlib...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I think of "tube rattle", I'm not hearing anything harmonically
> > sympathetic. I'm hearing some sort of vibration sound you might liken
> > to a funky sounding tambourine inside there.
>
> Yes!! That's exactly how I'd describe the noise.
Aha!!! Well, we'll let the experts go from here... I'm no expert on such
things that I can't hear... We're only guessing now. It's just that "my"
words and your words DO sound strikingly similar to "tube rattle".
> If I unplug a power tube and flick it with a finger, I hear
> this tambourine-sounding noise, but it just lasts a second.
>
> With the amp powered on, certain sounds -- especially with
> pre-amp gain -- cause this tambourine-sound to occur. I
> swear, if I paid attention, I could almost tell you what
> *notes* cause this to happen.
Hmmmm...
> I think I'll have my long-suffering wife put on a hot mitt,
> then get naked, and -- no.
No, no! Take pix and post the results!
> You know, it's really quite a nice-sounding amp, IMO,
> but with its "American" and "British" channels, it makes
> me wish for a REAL Marshall, and a REAL Fender, instead of
> something that's "both."
I played with a guy that had a Rivera Quiana (sp) and it was "supposed" to
do the same thing (Fender and Marshall)... Being a Marshall fan, I'd have to
say that it didn't do the Marshall thing very well, and was decent at the
Fendery stuff. He came to the same conclusion you are getting to, dumped the
amp and got a PV Classic 50 combo, with EL84's!!! Hahaha... How ironic. So
now he has a squished sounding Marshall tone and funky cleans due to the low
headroom of the EL84's. You can't win.
Get a Marshall 2203 and be done... ;-)
Jeff
Jeff
Jeff Liberatore
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:INDz8.4332$Au5....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
You'd have a whole rhythm section in your amp... It shuts up the drummer and
one less mouth to feed too!
Maybe he should just keep those tubes!
Or get a good Marshall... ;-)
Jeff
>
> ~kp
>
Steve Cowell
jlib...@columbus.rr.com says...
> If they're EL84's, get used to changing them.
See, Miles... I'm not the only one!
__
Steve
.
Profklamen
case it is a 12AX7 tube position. I tried four different tubes, they
all made a substantial vibrating glass sound that does not come
through the speakers. It is suprisingly loud when I play the "right"
note and stops when I touch the tube while playing the note. My guess
is that it has something to do with how the tube socket is mounted.
Miles O'Neal
|See, Miles... I'm not the only one!
yeah, but he's not *obsessed*.
I mean, I bet he never goes to the
Jiffy Lube and asks them to change
his EL84s with his oil!
CompUser
> Hey, Jeff -- I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in my question.
> First, is this symptom what's described as "tube rattle?" Ie,
> the tube seems to make a noise (not through speaker) in some
> kind of weird, harmonic sympathy with certain tones?
Try taking the tubes out, one by one, and (in a quiet room)
hold it up by your ear and shake it gently...is that the sound?
I was able to determine the 6V6's as a source of noise in
one of my amps, by doing this..along with the retainer
springs.
Steve
Paul M. Sanders
I haven't read this whole thread, but I had this same issue with a
Rivera amp. Mine was a Chubster 40, which I've sold (not because I
didn't like the amp). I had this problem when I first got the amp and
they buyer had it after I shipped it to him.
The cause was the tubes. Low frequencies physically rattle the filaments
inside the tube amd make that jingling noise. Sounds like a tamborine
sitting on top of the amp.
I've dealt with Rivera on this, in fact Paul himself helped me out with
my buyer.
Seems they have "combo grade" tubes and "head grade" tubes. Some tubes
are mechanically "tighter" than others on the inside. For me they picked
a tight set and sent to my buyer.
Must be something to do with Rivera cabinets that make them susceptible
to this. I know the Chubster cab was deeper than most combo cabinets.
Perhaps it gives the bass more chance to develop and vibrate the tubes
before dissapating out the back of the cab. I dunno.
I retubed my Marshall 2204 using tubes from www.thetubestore.com. The
were good and tight. That's how I noticed the difference, comparing the
two. I don't know that you could always count on their tubes being
"tight", but mine were.
Good luck!
Paul
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve
--
___________________________________
Paul M. Sanders
SGI Network Engineering
Email: p...@sgi.com
Travis Gardiner
like a sonofagun on certain high notes, badly enough to make me junk them
for the ancient Sovtek's that I was TRYING to replace.
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aan0av$12l$1...@news.duke.edu...
Travis Gardiner
sometime.. I used red high temp silicon...
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:_JDz8.49895$4b.1240935@news20...
MS
power tube rattle (as they all do). Basically it worked like this on
the Ampeg: the speaker resonates the chassis metal which in turn
resonates the circuit board, which in turn resonates the tube "inards"
(sockets mounted to PCB), which in turn gives you those weird noises,
which in turn toasts your new tubes in short order. Ampeg offered
various tube bracket thingy's thru their warranty program that made a
marginal difference. I conducted the "have someone put on a mit and
physically hold the tubes while I played" experiment, and the noise
completely vanished.
Diagnosis? Chassis metal that is the thickness of paper will flail
away inside a combo, and at high volumes, in a head as well. When you
have paper thin metal it doesn't matter if the tube sockets attach to
the circuit board or the metal, it's gonna be a problem. That
explains why my '65 Fender has never made a peep of tube rattle: plate
metal chassis. And an old Acoustic T100 has likewise never had rattle
even though it's a 100 watt combo with tube sockets mounted to a PCB,
again, very heavy chassis metal.
Soooo, how to end this phenomenon? One method is to build a new
chassis out of thick metal, but this isn't very feasable most of the
time. Second option? Dampen the thin sheet metal chassis by glueing
plate metal to it. A tube of JB Weld and some plate aluminum and
you're good to go. Just remember you don't have to completely cover
the chassis, just stiften-up the large flat areas succeptable to
flailing, the corner areas will be stiff enough. If you want to make
it look nice, do the inside...
Steve Cowell
says...
> Be careful though, I tried this and needed pliers to get the tubes out after
> sometime.. I used red high temp silicon...
Don't run a bead, use two blobs, one on each side, so
you can easily slice them with a razor blade when changing
time comes (as you know it will).
__
Steve
.
hamer_guitar-man
>You know, it's really quite a nice-sounding amp, IMO,
>but with its "American" and "British" channels, it makes
>me wish for a REAL Marshall, and a REAL Fender, instead of
>something that's "both."
Well I have to agree with you it is a great sounding amp. I have one
and I also have a fender and a marshall... The ampeg is my favourite.
As far as rattles go I have the tube retainer on my power tubes and
dont notice any of the rattles you mention. The stock preamp tubes
that came with mine are a little microphonic......
Good luck with it.
Elvis Paisley
<stki...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aan0av$12l$1...@news.duke.edu...
> Jeff Liberatore <jlib...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I think of "tube rattle", I'm not hearing anything harmonically
> > sympathetic. I'm hearing some sort of vibration sound you might liken
> > to a funky sounding tambourine inside there.
>
> Yes!! That's exactly how I'd describe the noise.
>
> If I unplug a power tube and flick it with a finger, I hear
> this tambourine-sounding noise, but it just lasts a second.
Have you tried shaking the ouptut tubes next to your ear? Do they rattle
inside?
If they rattle, they are beyond their life expectancy or were bumped around
while still hot. But then again, one must realize most contemporary EL34s
will have these symptoms eventually.
Either expect to replace them on a regular basis or try Sovtek 5881s. They
can handle the higher plate voltage for EL34s but hardly ever become baby
rattles. The other option is fork out arms, legs and shirts for some
Mullards or Am. make 6CA7s. You may have some longevity with those but still
try to take care of them by not bumping the amp while the tubes are still
hot.
A lot of damage happens when you move the amp around before the tubes have
cooled. This a somewhat regular occurrence here in the French Quarter clubs
of this city with club managers trying the rush the band off stage so the
next band can get set up and play before the crowd leaves.
I try to tell my customers to first shut the amp off, then pack their
guitar(s), wrap mic cables, help the drummer and whatever, but move their
tube amp off stage LAST and DON'T BUMP IT and hopefully the tubes will be
cooled off enough in case that happens.
> With the amp powered on, certain sounds -- especially with
> pre-amp gain -- cause this tambourine-sound to occur. I
> swear, if I paid attention, I could almost tell you what
> *notes* cause this to happen.
You also may have oxidized socket terminals.
> Maybe I shouldn't have said it's *that* loud, but I
> can clearly hear the noise playing the amp at medium
> household volumes. It's surprisingly piercing.
>
> The EL-34's are not secured with a clip, and I've
> seated/reseated them. The preamp tubes are covered
> by some kind of weird tube stuffed with...?....
>
> I guess I can buy some more tubes, and try them,
> but I hate ordering yet another set, when I already
> have two pairs -- one US-made. :(
>
> I think I'll have my long-suffering wife put on a hot mitt,
> then get naked, and -- no. The devil made me say that.
> Put on a hot mitt, and grab the tubes, while I'm playing.
> See if that doesn't stop the rattle. Then I'll at least
> *know* if it's the tubes, right? <sigh>
Have her try tapping with her fingernails on the tubes while they are in the
amp and listen for rattle noises.
> You know, it's really quite a nice-sounding amp, IMO,
> but with its "American" and "British" channels, it makes
> me wish for a REAL Marshall, and a REAL Fender, instead of
> something that's "both."
I'm a Fender guy, but those Riveras aren't all that bad.
EP
Amp Repairs, Restoration, Electronic Consultation, Innovations, Free Beer at
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Paze, 02
stki...@duke.edu
> Have you tried shaking the ouptut tubes next to your ear? Do they rattle
> inside?
Yup.
I think it's time for new tubes. I tightened every screw I could
find, and if anything that made it worse.
I appreciate all the help from everyone.
Steve