Pedal steel amp recommendation.

[Bob Welsh]

I'll participate in on topic discussion.
I received as a gift a older (1958-59) Dekley pedal steel 10 string guitar. I have got it in good working order and am curious about a decent amp to run it with. It seems most PSG rigs today use solid state keyboard amps and a slew of stompbox or processing devices to help define their sound. Peavey Sessions 400's seem to be the combo amp of choice. A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.(the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!
I have a early 70's twin that would probably suffice. Would Labtec or Roland jazz chorus amps do for clean and powerful? I have only found a steel guitar forum for resources. Any comments will be appreciated... Robert

[Les Cargill]

Bob Welsh wrote:
> I'll participate in on topic discussion. I received as a gift a older
> (1958-59) Dekley pedal steel 10 string guitar.

Congratulations. It's not all-pull, is it - not from 1958. Rack and
barrel?

> I have got it in good
> working order and am curious about a decent amp to run it with. It
> seems most PSG rigs today use solid state keyboard amps and a slew of
> stompbox or processing devices to help define their sound. Peavey
> Sessions 400's seem to be the combo amp of choice.

Lots of Fender Twin out there on steel. The Session is a pretty
good amp. You should be able to try one before buying.

I sound better thru a Fender than a Peavey myself.

> A high quality
> 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.(the volume pedal of
> today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,etc.) that I don't
> seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!

Don't. Just use an Ernie Ball or Goodrich passive pedal. You can also
possibly find a Carter low-profile passive pedal from Steel Guitars of
Canada ( after John Fabian died, Al Brisco of SGoC is the Carter parts
source ) .

They are 500K and this matters.

The Hiltons and all are heavily buffered. I'd only bother after I
figured out that the volume pedal was a specific tone-suck with whatever
amp you end up with.

You can also add a buffer to a passive pedal for less than you'll
pay for a Hilton. Still, people swear by Hilton pedals.

> I have a early
> 70's twin that would probably suffice.

Yep. It'll be just fine.

> Would Labtec or Roland jazz
> chorus amps do for clean and powerful?

Maybe. This isn't one size fits all.

> I have only found a steel
> guitar forum for resources. Any comments will be appreciated...
> Robert
>

You can't go wrong with the Twin, IMO.


--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Rick N. Backer wrote:

> Actually, the steel guitar forum might be the better place to ask.
> They know what a steel is supposed to sound like and how to get it
> there, usual amount of debate and "so's your mother"s aside. My take
> here is we're mainly guitarists with a smattering of keyboard.
>

I'm a member there, and it's about half a mix of Peavey Session or the
like or Twins. The rest use other things, mainly makes you probably
haven't heard of that are specific to steel.

Paul Franklin uses a Little Walter 50W head and cab.

> That said, there may be a country picker or two that has an inside on
> what amps go well.
>

--
Les Cargill

[Red Boyle]

I've talked to Jonny "Dumplin" Cox about his rig. He uses a Sho-Bud amp. He does run it through a bunch of pedals though. Best steel player I've seen.

[Bob Welsh]

Hi Les, best I can tell, that date of mfg. I found a Facebook page devoted to steelers. "Show us your pedal steel guitar....." I joined and put pics of what I got there. Members argued and consensus was it is a Dekley "student". I took it to a local old PSG tech/player that made replacement pedal rods for it. He agreed to mfg and approximate date. All pull, 3 pedal 1 knee, and said extra drilled/tapped holes in the aluminum body/chassis were for various pedal/knee options. Used for school/instructional settings, they were built as ordered a few at a time, and are found in several configurations. I personally know very little about this style of guitar, I have been interested in lap slide to ease arthritis and skin problems, it let's me play more/longer. The tunings and the math associated with this kind of rig is a fun,new challenge. My lap setup is far from PSG clean. I use small 6v6 or el84 for a cranked tone. I'll have to learn why clean power is the preferred method. It is obvious that saving weight is not the intended reason for this rig. The old twin won't help in that respect. Thanks again....

[Les Cargill]

Bob Welsh wrote:
> Hi Les, best I can tell, that date of mfg. I found a Facebook page
> devoted to steelers. "Show us your pedal steel guitar....." I joined
> and put pics of what I got there. Members argued and consensus was it
> is a Dekley "student". I took it to a local old PSG tech/player that
> made replacement pedal rods for it. He agreed to mfg and approximate
> date. All pull, 3 pedal 1 knee, and said extra drilled/tapped holes
> in the aluminum body/chassis were for various pedal/knee options.

Dekley are good guitars. The only thing "student" about it is the lack
of pedals & knees, and you've already found a way 'round that.

Inherently "student" guitars like the Carter Starter or ShoBud
Maverick, you can't really add pedals and knees.

3 pedals/4 knees is kinda the basic setup for E9.

> Used for school/instructional settings, they were built as ordered a
> few at a time, and are found in several configurations. I personally
> know very little about this style of guitar, I have been interested
> in lap slide to ease arthritis and skin problems, it let's me play
> more/longer. The tunings and the math associated with this kind of
> rig is a fun,new challenge.

Yep.

> My lap setup is far from PSG clean. I use
> small 6v6 or el84 for a cranked tone.

Sure - that's kinda the thing there. It, of course, varies - David
Lindley doesn't do it like Eddie Rivers ( who is playing a console,
standup steel ).

Olli on the SGF is a good guy to watch for lap steel.

> I'll have to learn why clean
> power is the preferred method.

Pedal steel just has a different role in the world. Frankly, I'm, not
pointed at the classic super-clean pedal steel tone. I like a little
more wool on it and less treble.

> It is obvious that saving weight is
> not the intended reason for this rig. The old twin won't help in that
> respect. Thanks again....
>

The PeeVee SS amps tend to be *some* lighter. But a D-10 steel with 8x5
and a healthy 30 pull copedent runs 75 lbs in the case, often.

If you have weight, use wheels.

--
Les Cargill

[Universe]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
<brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Bob,

I haven't been here for a week or two, so pardon the late reply.

Part of your question depends on the sound that you're after and how
loud you intend to play. The Twin should sound very good but you may
find it too clean and bright if you don't have a chance to really
crank it. Often a 40-50 watt tube amp is a good one-size-fits-all for
most guitarists in general. And much easier to carry.

The other aspect of Fender amps: The circuits originated during the
era when surf and other non-distorted music was the main thing. They
have a hard-wired steep mid cut at about 300 Hz. That lends to
minimizing mud in the low end and maximizing perceived power before
distortion.

Contrast that with the older single-tone-knob amps that were used on
so many great Chicago blues recordings (Supro amps were apparently
used on a lot of Zep tunes as well). The simpler tone circuits usually
don't cut mids, so the power stage is pushed hard, and the sound is
generally very up-front, with easier transition into distortion. It's
a very useful sound for steel, IMO.

While I love Fender amps, they do not give you much control over mids,
so you can't get that old Supro tone (older single-tone-knob Fenders
being an exception). As an experiment, you could try using a straight
power amp (like a hifi or keyboard amp), and feed that with a
conventional EQ. Play with the sliders to get an idea of what type of
tone sounds good. If you end up with the sliders pulled down at
300hz, then go for a Fender or similar. If you like more low mids,
then look into a separate preamp and power amp that will allow a wider
range of tone control options.

BTW, your pickups on the steel will still want to see a high impedance
input, so you'd need some type of buffer or (linear) preamp in front
of the EQ.

[Les Cargill]

Universe wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
> <brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll participate in on topic discussion.
>> I received as a gift a older (1958-59) Dekley pedal steel 10 string guitar. I have got it in good working order and am curious about a decent amp to run it with. It seems most PSG rigs today use solid state keyboard amps and a slew of stompbox or processing devices to help define their sound. Peavey Sessions 400's seem to be the combo amp of choice. A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.(the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!
>> I have a early 70's twin that would probably suffice. Would Labtec or Roland jazz chorus amps do for clean and powerful? I have only found a steel guitar forum for resources. Any comments will be appreciated... Robert
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I haven't been here for a week or two, so pardon the late reply.
>
> Part of your question depends on the sound that you're after and how
> loud you intend to play. The Twin should sound very good but you may
> find it too clean and bright if you don't have a chance to really
> crank it. Often a 40-50 watt tube amp is a good one-size-fits-all for
> most guitarists in general. And much easier to carry.
>
> The other aspect of Fender amps: The circuits originated during the
> era when surf and other non-distorted music was the main thing. They
> have a hard-wired steep mid cut at about 300 Hz. That lends to
> minimizing mud in the low end and maximizing perceived power before
> distortion.
>
> Contrast that with the older single-tone-knob amps that were used on
> so many great Chicago blues recordings (Supro amps were apparently
> used on a lot of Zep tunes as well). The simpler tone circuits usually
> don't cut mids, so the power stage is pushed hard, and the sound is
> generally very up-front, with easier transition into distortion. It's
> a very useful sound for steel, IMO.
>

Lap and pedal steel generally have different ... tonal alphabets. Pedal
is frequently used with more of a hi-fi sound and less of a Supro
sound.

One reason people use a lot of Peavey steel amps is that Hartley
actually voiced those for pedal steel players. But a Twin for pedal
steel is practically a cliche.

> While I love Fender amps, they do not give you much control over mids,
> so you can't get that old Supro tone (older single-tone-knob Fenders
> being an exception). As an experiment, you could try using a straight
> power amp (like a hifi or keyboard amp), and feed that with a
> conventional EQ. Play with the sliders to get an idea of what type of
> tone sounds good. If you end up with the sliders pulled down at
> 300hz, then go for a Fender or similar. If you like more low mids,
> then look into a separate preamp and power amp that will allow a wider
> range of tone control options.
>
> BTW, your pickups on the steel will still want to see a high impedance
> input, so you'd need some type of buffer or (linear) preamp in front
> of the EQ.
>

--
Les Cargill

[Too Long in the Wasteland]

It depends if you want to play rock slide or country clean.

[Universe]

But the OP said that he already has a Twin.

So you don't think it's worthwhile to explore adding midrange for the
pedal steel amp. Interesting. That would be one of the very first
things that I'd think was worth exploring.

BTW, the Twin is not a 'hifi' amp. It has a very deep mid notch,
unlike the keyboard amps that the OP mentioned. By contrast, the
Peavey Nashville 400 is a relatively flat response design with a
Baxandall variant tone circuit. That allows boosting the mids over the
level of the treble and bass. That's one of the reasons that I
suggested exploring mid boost via EQ before settling on an amp.

[Bob Welsh]

Thanks for all the comments, I have followed this forum for many years. Until recently, it hasn't been conducive to expose ignorance while trying to glean knowledge from others. Anyway....

The local player/tech that assisted me did show me his rig(s), his back up was Peavey keyboard and session amps. His main rig is rack mount; stereo power amp (Peavey also, I believe), power conditioner, digital processor, strobe tuner and a assortment of stompboxes mounted on a pedalboard hung on the side of his rack flight case. All within easy reach. He said his preamp is actually in his "foot control pedal", and to not see it as just a volume controller. All his signal cords were smaller than typical guitar cords in diameter and were "solderless". ?? He is obvious all country/Texas swing oriented and at 82 years old, quite proficient in what he plays. At that point, his tonal wants and mine will probably differ. He doesn't rock or growl in tone.

My Twin will probably satisfy me for clean power needs. If my current lap slide tone interests are more dirty, and small overdriven tubes has been my preference, how does the higher impedance pickup of the PSG interact with the harder driven smaller amps... Is it a tube/transformer killer?? Thanks!

[Les Cargill]

So in my case, I user a Blues Deluxe ( I'm avoiding a Twin because
they're just too much amp ) and I find a mid cut useful. But that';s
with a Blues Deluxe, not a Twin.

> BTW, the Twin is not a 'hifi' amp. It has a very deep mid notch,
> unlike the keyboard amps that the OP mentioned. By contrast, the
> Peavey Nashville 400 is a relatively flat response design with a
> Baxandall variant tone circuit. That allows boosting the mids over the
> level of the treble and bass. That's one of the reasons that I
> suggested exploring mid boost via EQ before settling on an amp.
>

Good thought; I was not reading you properly.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Bob Welsh wrote:
> Thanks for all the comments, I have followed this forum for many
> years. Until recently, it hasn't been conducive to expose ignorance
> while trying to glean knowledge from others. Anyway....
>
> The local player/tech that assisted me did show me his rig(s), his
> back up was Peavey keyboard and session amps. His main rig is rack
> mount; stereo power amp (Peavey also, I believe), power conditioner,
> digital processor, strobe tuner and a assortment of stompboxes
> mounted on a pedalboard hung on the side of his rack flight case. All
> within easy reach. He said his preamp is actually in his "foot
> control pedal",

... probably a Hilton pedal, right? The buffering means you get less
high frequency loss with the pedal rocked back. It's the same principle
as active EMG pickups.

> and to not see it as just a volume controller. All
> his signal cords were smaller than typical guitar cords in diameter
> and were "solderless". ??

GeorgeL cables.

> He is obvious all country/Texas swing
> oriented and at 82 years old, quite proficient in what he plays. At
> that point, his tonal wants and mine will probably differ. He doesn't
> rock or growl in tone.
>

Yep. No two players want the same thing.

> My Twin will probably satisfy me for clean power needs. If my current
> lap slide tone interests are more dirty, and small overdriven tubes
> has been my preference, how does the higher impedance pickup of the
> PSG interact with the harder driven smaller amps... Is it a
> tube/transformer killer?? Thanks!
>

PSG pickups are pretty high output, but the volume pedal regulates that.

--
Les Cargill

[Universe]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:34:20 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
<brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks for all the comments, I have followed this forum for many years. Until recently, it hasn't been conducive to expose ignorance while trying to glean knowledge from others. Anyway....

Shame about that. AGA was one of the cooler newsgroups way back.
Maybe it will be again.

>The local player/tech that assisted me did show me his rig(s), his
> back up was Peavey keyboard and session amps. His main rig is rack
> mount; stereo power amp (Peavey also, I believe), power conditioner,
> digital processor, strobe tuner and a assortment of stompboxes
> mounted on a pedalboard hung on the side of his rack flight case.

It sounds like he has a definite idea of what he's after. I'm
curious... what types of stomp boxes? I don't often think of steel
players using overdrive boxes, but most of the other bases are usually
covered well by the digital processor (assuming you meant a rack mount
FX/Reverb/chorus). Maybe he just grew attached to some of the other
effects before he got the rack mount unit.

> He said his preamp is actually in his "foot
> control pedal", and to not see it as just a volume controller.

There's a very good reason to do this. I'll explain below.

> All
> his signal cords were smaller than typical guitar cords in diameter
> and were "solderless". ??

Les is correct; those are almost definitely "George L" cables. Very
low capacitance, hence more top end. You'll find that many players
love them or hate them because of that.

Guitar pickups are inductive, so any 'loading' will tend to roll off
highs. By loading, I mean low impedance inputs on preamps, and in
fact, the capacitance of the guitar cable. It forms a circuit--a
filter actually. Guitarists have come to identify that filter as part
of the sound of electric guitar. But there are limits to how much top
end you'd want to roll off.

Here's where the volume pedal comes into play: Pedal steel pickups
are almost invariably mounted near the bridge. If they were closer to
the neck, you'd get some odd effects as the steel passed over the
pickup--you'd be picking up the wrong side of the string.

Being near the bridge, the pickup's output is weighted heavily toward
the treble end, just as the bridge pickup on a strat. Perhaps for
that reason, steel pickup manufacturers started to wind more turns on
their coils, which subdues some of the icepick highs and of course
provides more overall output.

The end result is that they require the same high impedance inputs as
an overwound guitar pickup. Tube amp inputs are fine, but lower
impedances (more loading) will cause pronounced high end rolloff. So
there's some sense in subduing a bit of the icepick effect, but you'd
ideally want to tailor most of the response yourself with EQ.

If you use a volume pedal with a built-in buffer amp, you're home
free. You can feed pretty much anything with it, since the output
impedance is much lower.

> He is obvious all country/Texas swing
> oriented and at 82 years old, quite proficient in what he plays. At
> that point, his tonal wants and mine will probably differ. He doesn't
> rock or growl in tone.

I had the sense that you were looking for a bit more edge. That can
be tricky for steel. On regular guitar, the strings are in 4ths, so
it's easy to play 5th intervals thru an overdrive for the familiar Zep
or Smoke on the Water sound. On steel, the strings are tuned closer
together, in 3rd or 2nd intervals. Overdriving those close intervals
can result in more grungey sounding distortion (intermodulation). An
overdriven amp may get there more gracefully than the typical
overdrive box.

> My Twin will probably satisfy me for clean power needs. If my current
> lap slide tone interests are more dirty, and small overdriven tubes
> has been my preference, how does the higher impedance pickup of the
> PSG interact with the harder driven smaller amps... Is it a
> tube/transformer killer?? Thanks!

No, not in itself. Regular guitar pickups are fairly high impedance
too, and we never blow amps up (ahem).

Seriously, some steel players do have trouble plugging straight into a
Fender input due to the hotter pickups. You can't just plug into the
'low gain' input either, since it has a much lower impedance, and the
highs will be gone. The volume pedal solves all of that.

Volume pedals can get expensive, so you may want to ask around on the
steel forums for recommendations. The pot-driven ones can get noisy.
There are some that are implemented with an optical 'shutter'
(light->shutter->light-dependent resistor), that should work well. But
they may be prone to another set of problems due to the mechanical
aspect.

[Universe]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
<brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.
>(the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,
>etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!

Bob, I just read through your original post again. Not sure about the
reference to '500 ohm volume pedal.' That would probably be 500k ohm
or greater if they're referring to input impedance.

I believe that Goodrich is still offering some well made volume
pedals. There's a company called Telonics that has a very cool
looking feature list, including multiple tapers (how fast the pedal
transitions from low to high volume) and adjustable loading (see my
other post).

Kind of amusing to read that manufacturers often have two different
pedal profiles, with one preferred by those wearing cowboy boots.
Telonics also markets a wacky range of electronics gear for
oceanography and intrusion detection. If you go to their site, it's
easy to miss the volume pedals. Maybe some military-electronics
wizard who happens to play steel.

Not sure, but I think both manufacturers use long-life pots. Perhaps
the optical pedals have fallen by the wayside. That was a good idea
though.

Telonics: http://www.tpa-az.com/page16.htm

Not sure where the Goodrich page got to, but this guy has some info:

http://www.songwriter.com/bradshaw/goodrich_pedals.php

[Les Cargill]

Universe wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:34:20 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
> <brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

<snip>

>
> Seriously, some steel players do have trouble plugging straight into a
> Fender input due to the hotter pickups. You can't just plug into the
> 'low gain' input either, since it has a much lower impedance, and the
> highs will be gone. The volume pedal solves all of that.
>

I am having great luck with this with the Blues Deluxe ( and
that input looks a lot like a Bassman input , Leo be praised ).

The (passive) volume pedal not only reduces level, but it rolls back the
highs, so when you stomp on it, you get a doubling in musical emphasis.
This keeps fills more mellow, not as obnoxious.

> Volume pedals can get expensive, so you may want to ask around on the
> steel forums for recommendations. The pot-driven ones can get noisy.

You have to replace the pots. There are sealed pots available that
fix this, until they wear out in five years.

> There are some that are implemented with an optical 'shutter'
> (light->shutter->light-dependent resistor), that should work well.

Like the Morley pedals - yep, very good units, but I have yet to try one
on steel. The height is a problem.

> But
> they may be prone to another set of problems due to the mechanical
> aspect.
>

Yep yep. Still, guy I use to play with had a Plexi or a
silverface Bassman thru either one or a pair of Marshall cabs,
and a Morely volume/wah pedal.

That was some chest-hair havin' tone.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Universe wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
> <brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.
>> (the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,
>> etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!
>
> Bob, I just read through your original post again. Not sure about the
> reference to '500 ohm volume pedal.' That would probably be 500k ohm
> or greater if they're referring to input impedance.
>

Volume pedals for steel pretty much have a standard 500 or 470k
resistance. I know - you'd think it would be a 1Meg pot but it
isn't.

> I believe that Goodrich is still offering some well made volume
> pedals. There's a company called Telonics that has a very cool
> looking feature list, including multiple tapers (how fast the pedal
> transitions from low to high volume) and adjustable loading (see my
> other post).
>

Yes yes.

> Kind of amusing to read that manufacturers often have two different
> pedal profiles, with one preferred by those wearing cowboy boots.

Not surprising at all; as Abraham Lincoln said, a man's leg should
be just long enough to reach the ground.

Getting the geometry under the table right is work. I can't play with
boots yet. I use boat shows. I used to play barefoot.

> Telonics also markets a wacky range of electronics gear for
> oceanography and intrusion detection. If you go to their site, it's
> easy to miss the volume pedals. Maybe some military-electronics
> wizard who happens to play steel.
>
> Not sure, but I think both manufacturers use long-life pots. Perhaps
> the optical pedals have fallen by the wayside. That was a good idea
> though.
>

It was.

> Telonics: http://www.tpa-az.com/page16.htm
>
> Not sure where the Goodrich page got to, but this guy has some info:
>
> http://www.songwriter.com/bradshaw/goodrich_pedals.php
>

The critical element is the pot itself; there are pots available from
small vendors that work better.

Pedal steel is a high-service, one-off business. I have made mistakes
in part orders that the sellers fixed without asking just because they
knew exactly what I needed despite what I asked for.

It's inspirational. The pedal steel community is about making sure the
instrument survives. The level of competence is ... deafening.

The instrument teaches humility first. The comunity reflects that.

--
Les Cargill

[Universe]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:34:20 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
<brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My Twin will probably satisfy me for clean power needs. If my current lap slide tone interests are more dirty, and small overdriven tubes has been my preference, how does the higher impedance pickup of the PSG interact with the harder driven smaller amps... Is it a tube/transformer killer?? Thanks!

Another idea re the amp. I do believe that midrange forms the
personality of many guitar amps. Often overlooked because many players
have grown up with the standard 300hz mid notch. But when jazz guys
turn their treble all the way down and crank the bass, they're
generally not looking for huge tubby bass--they're trying to get back
mid punch. Fender's deep cut at the 300 hz range is in the heart of
the fundamental freqencies and punchy low overtones on guitar
(actually 300hz is close to the fundamental of the high E string, or
the first overtone of the E on 2nd fret of the D string).

Many players also use humbuckers to get back some of the perceived
loss in mids and low harmonics.

Peavey's steel guitar amps have a couple interesting aspects. They're
basically linear, like a keyboard/PA/hifi amp, with tone controls
that can alter treble and bass both up and down. (Fender's tone
controls allow boost but not cut. Even the Fender mid control does
not push mids up beyond the level of bass and treble).

Peavey has a hard-wired steep low cut around 20 hz or so. That's way
below string fundamental frequencies. They're probably trying to
minimize the thump when bringing the steel down on all the strings or
close to the pickup.

Peavey also has a specific mid control with boost/cut and another
control for generating a more peaky response. That may be to provide
more body, as I mentioned above, but the 'peak' could be an effort to
emulate dobro/resonator tonality.

In fact, MXR makes a pedal (is it called the 'Resonator'?) that's
designed for that.

So here's an idea: Record your steel directly into a computer track
(through a buffer/preamp). All dry signal. Then play it back with
Audacity (free) or similar program. That will allow you to play with
all types of EQ to find response curves that suit you. Then choose
your amp and outboard gear according to that.

Parametric EQ is often more useful than graphic EQ in that you can do
very broad boosts and cuts or you can narrow the band to peakier
response (experiment with dobro sound). You'll find that higher "Q"
(narrow band) will have the peaky effect of a wah pedal. I
personally prefer broader band (low "Q") boost around 800 hz or so to
add body. Often sharp rolloff above 3khz to 5khz to minimize
shrieking treble. That will actually allow you to turn the regular
treble control up, as it will avoid the icepick effect.

[Universe]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:07:19 -0600, Les Cargill
<lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

>Universe wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
>> <brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.
>>> (the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,
>>> etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!
>>
>> Bob, I just read through your original post again. Not sure about the
>> reference to '500 ohm volume pedal.' That would probably be 500k ohm
>> or greater if they're referring to input impedance.
>>
>
>Volume pedals for steel pretty much have a standard 500 or 470k
>resistance. I know - you'd think it would be a 1Meg pot but it
>isn't.

Point was that there's a K in there. But yeah, 1 meg would be better
for an active pedal. The reason that you don't see 1 meg pots in
guitars very often is that as you turn them down, the increased series
resistance works against the cable capacitance and rolls off highs.
Defeats the purpose.

They can be compensated with a cap and a resistor or two, but that
will affect taper somewhat. Rich L worked out a rather clever
compensation method which would probably work well for 1 meg pots.

>> Kind of amusing to read that manufacturers often have two different
>> pedal profiles, with one preferred by those wearing cowboy boots.
>
>Not surprising at all; as Abraham Lincoln said, a man's leg should
>be just long enough to reach the ground.

Lincoln lived in a simpler time. Nowadays, the leg needs to reach the
high-heeled boot, which needs to reach a custom-height volume pedal.

[jh]

On 20.11.2014 09:53, Universe wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
> <brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll participate in on topic discussion.
>> I received as a gift a older (1958-59) Dekley pedal steel 10 string guitar. I have got it in good working order and am curious about a decent amp to run it with. It seems most PSG rigs today use solid state keyboard amps and a slew of stompbox or processing devices to help define their sound. Peavey Sessions 400's seem to be the combo amp of choice. A high quality 500ohm volume pedal appears to be a must also.(the volume pedal of today, seems to serve multiple functions(preamp,etc.) that I don't seem to fully understand,besides their insane cost!
>> I have a early 70's twin that would probably suffice. Would Labtec or Roland jazz chorus amps do for clean and powerful? I have only found a steel guitar forum for resources. Any comments will be appreciated... Robert
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I haven't been here for a week or two, so pardon the late reply.
>
> Part of your question depends on the sound that you're after and how
> loud you intend to play. The Twin should sound very good but you may
> find it too clean and bright if you don't have a chance to really
> crank it. Often a 40-50 watt tube amp is a good one-size-fits-all for
> most guitarists in general. And much easier to carry.
>
> The other aspect of Fender amps: The circuits originated during the
> era when surf and other non-distorted music was the main thing. They
> have a hard-wired steep mid cut at about 300 Hz. That lends to
> minimizing mud in the low end and maximizing perceived power before
> distortion.

SNIP

Hi RS,

you have the mid scoop, unless you dare to turn the mids up and treble
and bass almost to zero... Then even a BF Fender is fairly linear...

regards

Jochen

[Universe]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 13:15:07 +0100, jh <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>Hi RS,
>
>you have the mid scoop, unless you dare to turn the mids up and treble
>and bass almost to zero... Then even a BF Fender is fairly linear...
>
>regards
>
>Jochen

How have you been, Jochen! Yeah, I know the Fender circuit well. It's
elegant, but not as versatile as it could be. Minimal parts count and
all. I've never seen anyone use it with both bass and treble at 0. I
have seen some people put in a switch that completely lifts the tone
circuit (detaches the .047 mid cut cap). The resulting volume blast
is not easy to control, and generally overloads the output stages
quickly, and not necessarily in a good way.

I've just posted some response curves from a couple of my circuit
analysis programs. One does chart the Fender control response. You
may want to take a look. Let me know if you have any thoughts.

Nice to see you.

[Bob Welsh]

Thanks for all the comments! Sorry, I did mean 500k, my lack of full understanding causes me to omit a detail that is glaring.
Funny, as I was questioning the tech/player, I asked about the dexterity he possessed with his feet, mostly his left foot and how he could "roll" with ease, and by this, seem to work two pedals seemingly independent of each other. He was wearing big clunky "Doc Martin" like boots. I asked if different shoes affect his play or setup adjustments on the pedals? He said he was a retired iron worker, he never wore anything other than these.:)

There is a lot of terminology of "sound" that I don't have a good grasp of. Like many, I only know what I like, when I hear it. Some of the science behind it is over my head. Universe, I appreciate your "dumbed down" or simplified explanations, easing into unknowns can be more interesting to perdue when a novice can grasp the subject. Thanks!

Les, it is apparent you have more than a casual appreciation of this kind of instrument, it is good to know. The only thing I have had in my life longer than my wife of thirty five years, is the guitar. I look forward to the challenges that come with learning to play a PSG. It will force me to look at the technical aspect of chord structure in a new way. While I want to understand the "rules" of tradition, my lack of formal knowledge means I'll probably "bend" some. I can afford to spend some money on this thing, as I jones over gear, insight into what I think will work vs what does work, can be a major expense of time and cash. I appreciate the comments that others have that help me stay on track. Because the twin is something I have, it won't hurt to use. However, it could be a little much. I will study the volume pedal a bit as it does seem to be a critical interface between the instrument, me, and whatever amp I try. Prolly worthy of looking into pretty close. Thanks for your perspective!

Thanks for all that have commented! I do hope the trend towards civility continues, definitely a asset! Have a good Thanksgiving, everyone!

[Universe]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 06:50:21 -0800 (PST), Bob Welsh
<brokeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks for all the comments! Sorry, I did mean 500k, my lack of full
> understanding causes me to omit a detail that is glaring.

No problem there, Bob. I believe that many of the passive pedals (no
built in preamp) are 500k. It's a good range for what you're doing.
It can help to have 1meg input impedance, but that would only work
well for an active pedal (battery and preamp).

For many players, the volume pedal is part of the instrument, so if
you think you'll be using it a lot, consider an active pedal. That
will solve a number of problems for you, including other impedance
matching issues in the signal chain. The pedal's internal preamp will
act as a buffer so you'll be able to drive just about anythiing with
it.

> Funny, as I was questioning the tech/player, I asked about the
> dexterity he possessed with his feet, mostly his left foot and how he
> could "roll" with ease, and by this, seem to work two pedals
> seemingly independent of each other. He was wearing big clunky "Doc
> Martin" like boots. I asked if different shoes affect his play or
> setup adjustments on the pedals? He said he was a retired iron
> worker, he never wore anything other than these.:)

There ya go. You gotta get you some big ass boots! It does sound
like your friend could be a good source of info as you get up to speed
on the instrument. There are some relatively specialized things going
on.

There's also a couple steel guitar forums online. Here's one called,
strangely enough...steel guitar forum:

http://www.steelguitarforum.com/
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/

> There is a lot of terminology of "sound" that I don't have a good
> grasp of. Like many, I only know what I like, when I hear it. Some of
> the science behind it is over my head. Universe, I appreciate your
> "dumbed down" or simplified explanations, easing into unknowns can be
> more interesting to perdue when a novice can grasp the subject.
> Thanks!

Not dumbed down, Bob, just a different level. Einstein and Feynman
wrote some of the best intro-level stuff on physics ever. That's an
inspiration. I enjoy helping out fellow players when I can.

All the tech stuff aside though, you may want to try out one of the
Peavey-type amps next to your Twin. Those are the two opposite
polarities in the world of steel, as the midrange varies so much
between them. Twins are a beast to carry around, but it will at least
give you an idea of what to expect from that family.

Then if you end up liking the Peavey-type (flatter response, more
mids) sound more, you could still try to get closer by using EQ up
front.

You're correct about the theoretical aspect too. The idiosyncracies
of steel--tuning, pedals, etc--require a specialized approach. Your
steel player friend will probably be the best resource there.

>Thanks for all that have commented! I do hope the trend towards
> civility continues, definitely a asset!

It probably won't but stop back anyway! :-) Seriously, a couple of
the louder, lewder people here don't even play guitar, so don't let
them bother you.

> Have a good Thanksgiving, everyone!

You too, Bob. Nice of you to check back.

[jh]

Hi RS,

thanks i'm fine... I've still been lurking here from time to time...

I have to say: i really appreciate the route the group is going at this
point of time.
Some swarm intelligence is still left....

regarding your thoughts of the fender controls :-)
good job

for the laymans (or ist it laymen): get duncan munroes TSC
(duncanamps.com) and tinker a bit with the program. It can come handy in
live situations when you *really* know what your tone stack is doing....

regards

Jochen