Dual Rectifier vs. JCM2000
shoque
distortion with lots of bass. What should I get Marshall Jcm 2000 dsl or
Dual Rectifier? Which has more gain for hard rock/metal?
Odin Mattes
the Dual) and it definitely has brutal distortion with lots of bass. In
fact, when playing metal (Metallica, Pantera, etc...) I never put the gain
past 3/4 and if I turn the bass past 2/3 I cause the cabinet to bottom out.
This is thru a Mesa 4x12 Recto cabinet, which has more bass than the
Marshall 4x12. I am also curious about the new Marshall amps (TSL100)
versus the Mesa Recto amps. I had a JCM800, and the Mesa kills the JCM800
in terms of distortion and bass.
shoque <sho...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:1icM3.3410$j35.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Damien Harrison
shoque wrote in message <1icM3.3410$j35.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
>Hi everyone. If someone can help me out. I'm looking for a brutal
>distortion with lots of bass. What should I get Marshall Jcm 2000 dsl or
>Dual Rectifier? Which has more gain for hard rock/metal?
They both have enough gain for any application. The "deep" switch on the
DSL gives it heaps of bottom end and the Recto has heaps without any
switches. Just try them both out and see which one you like the tone of
better / costs less / has the options you want.
Harro.
Tonefactor
distortion with lots of bass. What should I get Marshall Jcm 2000 dsl or
Dual Rectifier? Which has more gain for hard rock/metal?
>>
They're both wimp machines. Neither produce any bass because of their toy
output transformers. Pick up an old JCM-800, not only will it be cheaper,
but it will kill either of the others.
Odin Mattes
Tonefactor <tonef...@aol.com> wrote in message >
> They're both wimp machines. Neither produce any bass because of their toy
> output transformers. Pick up an old JCM-800, not only will it be cheaper,
> but it will kill either of the others.
>
asked for "brutal" distortion and lots of bass. I have owned JCM800s
before, and they sound great. But they do not have "brutal" distortion. In
fact, without a distortion pedal you cannot even get a good heavy metal tone
out of a JCM800. The TSL and the Dual Recto both have a lot more gain than
the JCM800. As far as the toy output transformers, I don't know what
Rectifier you looked in, but the OT in my Triple Recto head is definitely
not a toy.
Perry Nayyum
>
> Tonefactor <tonef...@aol.com> wrote in message >
> > They're both wimp machines. Neither produce any bass because of their toy
> > output transformers. Pick up an old JCM-800, not only will it be cheaper,
> > but it will kill either of the others.
> >
> If you don't know what you are talking about, don't mislead the guy. He
> asked for "brutal" distortion and lots of bass.
Yeah really Tonefactor, quit spouting rubbish. No bass, I don't think
so! It's quite obvious that you've never played or jammed with a
DSL/TSL. I have owned four (4) JCM 800's, as well as an early 70's metal
face 100W super lead and the DSL blows them all away in terms of
versatility and balls.
And if you think that anyone could actually get a modern metal (I mean
modern, not an Eric Clapton Cream hard rock sound) sound out of a stock
Plexi, I got a nice long suspension bridge to sell you, overlooking
Burrard inlet in beautiful Vancouver BC.
Get with the times, it's not 1969 anymore (predicted reply: I wish it
was 1969, they don't build Marshall amps like they use to, blah, blah
blah, point-to-point, blah blah blah wimpy output transformer ...etc)
Jonathan Krogh
Perry Nayyum wrote in message <380216...@somewhere.org>...
Yes, I think this debate has gone on long enough, I myself am in the camp
that thinks the Plexi stack is the supreme source of all tones ballsy, I
agree the gain isnt all that at reasonable volumes for modern sounds, and
personally have no problem sticking a distortion box in front of a half
crank 4 inputter.
I think its time to rest the debate that the Tranny sizes are the limiting
factor on the bass and balls of the DSL, JCM900 and TSL amps, does anyone
have the facilities to swap in to one of these equivalent trannies from the
JCM800/JMP era?
Time to just see what the potential is.
Ross M Stites
>Tonefactor <tonef...@aol.com> wrote in message >
>> They're both wimp machines. Neither produce any bass because of their toy
>> output transformers. Pick up an old JCM-800, not only will it be cheaper,
>> but it will kill either of the others.
>>
>If you don't know what you are talking about, don't mislead the guy. He
>asked for "brutal" distortion and lots of bass. I have owned JCM800s
>before, and they sound great. But they do not have "brutal" distortion. In
>fact, without a distortion pedal you cannot even get a good heavy metal tone
>out of a JCM800. The TSL and the Dual Recto both have a lot more gain than
>the JCM800. As far as the toy output transformers, I don't know what
>Rectifier you looked in, but the OT in my Triple Recto head is definitely
>not a toy.
The JCM800 dual channel amps should have plenty of gain for anyone. Brutal
distortion comes from the preamp strictly and can easily be had from a pedal
btw. Just toss a good one in front of a quality amp, and you've got instant
metal. Tonefactor is definitely opinionated, but he does know Marshalls pretty
well, and does play heavy music from what I've seen here.
Ross
Ross M Stites
> Poster who's attribution I accidently deleted:
>>And if you think that anyone could actually get a modern metal (I mean
>>modern, not an Eric Clapton Cream hard rock sound) sound out of a stock
>>Plexi, I got a nice long suspension bridge to sell you, overlooking
>>Burrard inlet in beautiful Vancouver BC.
It's pretty easy to do. Just toss a good distortion in front and you're
there. Great flexability and great tone.
>Yes, I think this debate has gone on long enough, I myself am in the camp
>that thinks the Plexi stack is the supreme source of all tones ballsy, I
>agree the gain isnt all that at reasonable volumes for modern sounds, and
>personally have no problem sticking a distortion box in front of a half
>crank 4 inputter.
>I think its time to rest the debate that the Tranny sizes are the limiting
>factor on the bass and balls of the DSL, JCM900 and TSL amps, does anyone
>have the facilities to swap in to one of these equivalent trannies from the
>JCM800/JMP era?
>Time to just see what the potential is.
I'm putting my dollars on the tranny being the reason these amps lack the low
end and "balls" of the older Marshalls. That being said, I think the JCM2000 amps
are fine amps, as is the Dual Rectrifier mentioned in the thread (no lack of XFMR
here). If I had to choose a modern amp for metal tones, I'd probably go look
at a VHT Ultra or CLX (same preamp w/ different power amps). These have a great
modern metal tone in both the rhythm and lead channels. I wasn't thrilled with the
clean, but it's certainly better than average. It'll run a bit more than a DSL,
though. My Egnator will do the high gain thing well and has plenty of balls to
it (rumored to have Plexi style XFMRer's - anyone know for sure?), but if metal
was my game I'd probably go to the VHT first.
Ross
Ross M Stites
>shoque wrote in message <1icM3.3410$j35.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
>>Hi everyone. If someone can help me out. I'm looking for a brutal
>>distortion with lots of bass. What should I get Marshall Jcm 2000 dsl or
>>Dual Rectifier? Which has more gain for hard rock/metal?
>They both have enough gain for any application. The "deep" switch on the
>DSL gives it heaps of bottom end and the Recto has heaps without any
>switches. Just try them both out and see which one you like the tone of
>better / costs less / has the options you want.
The best advise I've seen here so far. Btw, if you get a chance check out amps
by VHT, Hughes and Ketner (sp?), or Engl for good metal sounds. There's a lot more
out there than just Marshall and Boogie.
Ross
Ross M Stites
> Just toss a good one in front of a quality amp, and you've got instant
>> metal
>> Ross
>>
>> The original poster asked for an AMP with "brutal" distortion and bass. A
>Roland Jazz Chorus 120 and a Death Metal Distortion pedal has brutal
>distortion. But the distortion is in the pedal, not the amp. My response
>was that the JCM800 AMPLIFIER does not have "brutal" distortion. I have
>owned Marshall JCM800 heads and used them for metal with a pedal in front of
>them, but without the pedal they just can't cut it for modern metal.
I think you understood what I meant. Throwing a pedal in front of a Jazz
Chorus is nothing like throwing it in front of a Marshall. I assume you
realize this.
Which JCM800 are you refering to? I assume the 2203/2204 series because
the 2205/2210 series should have plenty of gain for metal. (I don't really
like them, but lots do).
>And
>Tonefactor may know Marshalls, but if he thinks the OT in Mesa Rectifiers
>are toys, he doesn't know OTs or Mesas very well.
He's well known for his absolute hatred of Mesa's around here.
Ross
Odin Mattes
> metal
> Ross
>
> The original poster asked for an AMP with "brutal" distortion and bass. A
Roland Jazz Chorus 120 and a Death Metal Distortion pedal has brutal
distortion. But the distortion is in the pedal, not the amp. My response
was that the JCM800 AMPLIFIER does not have "brutal" distortion. I have
owned Marshall JCM800 heads and used them for metal with a pedal in front of
Odin Mattes
>
> Ross
That doesn't explain his asinine comment on output transformers. I hate
Japanese motorcycles, but I would never say that a Harley is faster and more
reliable than a Honda.
D A
more gain with Dual Recto. DAve
TeRRoR
of high gain. AC/DC for example. They don't use amps with tons of gain. Just
amps cranked. I can't understand the reason for so much gain. It doesn't
seem to cut through the mix. As for the Dual Recto, I think they get mushy
at higher volumes where the Marshall will cut through any mix. I think the
DSL is a better buy myself.
Jim
shoque <sho...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:1icM3.3410$j35.1...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Rich Koerner
I was telling myself, "don't look at this thread", over and over and
over for the about a week. My server started to delete them along the
way.
But, I figured it would be the same as the last similar New vs Old BS.
And, the OT thing, and the this, and that of before.
There are some things that are slow to except.
The NEW Generation SUCKS!!!!!
ALL OF THEM!!!!!!
They ALL are shadows of Their Former Examples!!!!!
Think I'm WRONG!
OK, take any *New* top of the line Advertised 100 Watt *ANY* Brand,
*ANY* Model you want, and COMPARE Same to One that was made in the Late
1970's.
I DON'T Care!!! Pick Anyone of them!!!!!
The *NEW* ones *ALL* ,... ARE SHOW & No Go!!!!
As the expression goes!!!!
Just a Pretty Shell with Nothing Of Substance Inside!!!!!
They are light weight *AIR BOXES*!!!!!!
They don't have Iron enough to PASS GAS from one winding to the other.
Just slap a $40.00 Rat Shack SPL meter in front of them BOTH, and
Compare THEM!!!!!
The meter Doesn't Lie, like their Advertising!!!!!!!
Drop them on a 1% load and PUMP THEM UP!!!!
*NONE* of them gives 20 VAC RMS across a 4 ohm load Before Clip!!!!!!
Why Not!!!! Their Older Models DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, where is the Truth in Advertising?????
It's a like smaller engines with lower horsepower being put in the New
Cars, and they are telling you the power(watts) is the same. But when
it comes to putting up the Title of that NEW CAR on the out come of some
street racing, Ya CHICKEN OUT and say, I bought it for the ride(tone) it
gives, not the power. BS!!!!
Wake Up *ALL* you Tone Nuts!!!!
The car (the amp) CAN'T Get Out Of Its Own Way!!!!
It's a Tone Slug owned By A Tone Slug!!!!!
If we were talking cars here, and this were true, EVERYONE Would Be
Bitching To GM, Ford, Etc...
So, I sit here watching the Emperor With No Cloths trying to get others
try them on!!!
Come On Already!!!!
Jonathan Krogh wrote:
>
> Perry Nayyum wrote in message <380216...@somewhere.org>...
> >Odin Mattes wrote:
> >>
> >> Tonefactor <tonef...@aol.com> wrote in message >
> >> > They're both wimp machines. Neither produce any bass because of their
> toy
> >> > output transformers. Pick up an old JCM-800, not only will it be
> cheaper,
> >> > but it will kill either of the others.
> >> >
> >> If you don't know what you are talking about, don't mislead the guy. He
> >> asked for "brutal" distortion and lots of bass.
> >
> >Yeah really Tonefactor, quit spouting rubbish. No bass, I don't think
> >so! It's quite obvious that you've never played or jammed with a
> >DSL/TSL. I have owned four (4) JCM 800's, as well as an early 70's metal
> >face 100W super lead and the DSL blows them all away in terms of
> >versatility and balls.
> >
> >And if you think that anyone could actually get a modern metal (I mean
> >modern, not an Eric Clapton Cream hard rock sound) sound out of a stock
> >Plexi, I got a nice long suspension bridge to sell you, overlooking
> >Burrard inlet in beautiful Vancouver BC.
> >
> >Get with the times, it's not 1969 anymore (predicted reply: I wish it
> >was 1969, they don't build Marshall amps like they use to, blah, blah
> >blah, point-to-point, blah blah blah wimpy output transformer ...etc)
Don't dismiss the fact that these High performance STANDARDS were Set a
long time ago!!!! They Are STILL Valid Standards Today, as they were
in the past!!!!
And, These STANDARDS WERE *Extablished* By The Very Manufacturers
Who CAN'T LIVE UP TO THEM ANY MORE *Today*!!!!!!!!!!!
TODAY in 1999!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Computer technology standards have gone higher as it is easy to see.
Compare any 8088 to a Pentium III. How does that add up.
However, Instrument Amplifiers reached their PEAK in the 1970's,
and from there its been down hill ever since!!!
Come On Already!!!!!!!!!!!
Take the Rose Colored Glasses OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Yes, I think this debate has gone on long enough, I myself am in the camp
> that thinks the Plexi stack is the supreme source of all tones ballsy, I
> agree the gain isnt all that at reasonable volumes for modern sounds, and
> personally have no problem sticking a distortion box in front of a half
> crank 4 inputter.
> I think its time to rest the debate that the Tranny sizes are the limiting
> factor on the bass and balls of the DSL, JCM900 and TSL amps, does anyone
> have the facilities to swap in to one of these equivalent trannies from the
> JCM800/JMP era?
> Time to just see what the potential is.
That potential is exactly the same as the amp those transformers come
out of. Think of taking *All* the Power Supply Components from that
500+ Volt B+ Old Marshall Power Supply, and Transplanting it in a 2000.
Then, having done that, taking also the Output Transformer and those NOS
EL-34's, or GE-6550A's along for the Transplant!
Now, I think we can get the picture of how much we are missing, and how
much improved things could be with today's New Generation of
Amplifier!!!
Or, does the Ostrich STILL have its head in the sand again!!!!
Regards,
Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com
jeanmi
It's a telecaster in a stock JCM 800 2205 (50W) head ! No stompboxes for
distortion. "Bombtrack" is quite a good example of a good metal tone.
jeanmi
Odin Mattes a écrit:
Scott & Kathryn Colborn
This alt.guitar.amps NG has a lot of new people dropping in, who
apparently haven't read any of the previous threads (fairly numerous but
I've been here for 15 months) about the "insides making the outsides."
I respect your opinion, and I think some of the new folks will also have
a growing respect when they have the opportunity of thinking about folks
like yourself who make these contributions and point out the FACTS about the
insides of the amp making the tone, sound, volume, etc.
You are an amp technician. You are a person who actually opens these
very amps we talk about and goes through them with a fine-tooth comb to sort
out problems, troubles and to return the amp to the best tone and sound
possible for the player. So you "know" the insides of the amps we are
talking about.
So when an experienced amp technician talks about the insides of the amp
shaping, or perhaps more bluntly, making the tone and sound of the amp, the
reader who REALLY CARES will take note. Those who want to pose or
pontificate may continue to do so, but they do so at the risk of the FACTS.
If I went to a car lot and wanted a fast car, and I asked the car expert
there (a knowledgeable salesman or bettter yet - the in-house mechanic)
about the motor, the drive train, etc, and he/she pointed out that car "A"
had a much smaller motor and wasn't geared as well as car "B" that had a
bigger motor and better gearing, I would really look at car "B." Seems like
a no-brainer.
But if the car "A" had a flashy paint job, big tires, loud stereo and
looked cool, I guess some people would be "fooled" by the "wrapper" and
think car "A" was a fast car. When they take it for a test drive, and other
cars leave it in the dust, I wonder how they would justify having purchased
the flashy car that had no get up and go. Maybe they would try to convince
others that their car was fast also, so that more people would buy similiar
cars....
I suspect that a lot of the players who talk about the virtues of the
new amps with a zillion switches, a thousand channels, and flashing lights
all over the thing, have never had the opportunity of playing through a
properly set up old "KING" of amplifiers (you can insert your favorite brand
here of old, reliable, hand-made amps). Secondly, as I have pointed out in
previous posts, when a player picks up the old "KING" of amps which is heavy
and then picks up the new amp, which is lighter, they have to wonder about
the weight difference. Perhaps the salesman trys to offset it by telling
the player that they finally have trimmed the amp down so the extra weight
is gone. Maybe the salesman makes it appear to the player that a lighter
amp is better, but still I wonder if the thought passes through the player's
head about what is missing to account for the weight difference.
Years ago I purchased a Tanberg cassette player, built very ruggedly.
When I picked the thing up, it physically was heavy. To this day, when I
pick up some of the newer, "better features" cassette players, I wonder
where the "good stuff" has gone, because they are light as a feather.
Great post again Rich. On that amp shoot-out you were talking about in
a previous post, I wonder how the "new stuff" would fair....(grin). You
should have lots of "SCOTTS" brand tissues there for the guys who show up
with the new light-weight amps that don't cut it. To think folks spend a
lot of dough for the promise of "new" and the old, better sounding more
reliable amps actually cost less in a lot of cases....
Thanks for your contributions as both an experienced amp tech and a
player. I appreciate your knowledge and your good humor Rich!
Walk in Beauty, Peace. Scott
RAC
I can say, based on my tests, that the old ALTEC 1569a ppp EVEN IN
triode MODE WITH A 65' Les Paul on it sounds better than my M-JCM900 and
my PEAVEY CLASSIC 120/120 with the MONSTER Transformers with the
original Sylvania 6l6GC's (8) blows away my M - TSL.
I can't wait to use my itssy-bitsy M-JMP- PA20, at 20W with Mullard
EL84's it will probably sound better than an other new Marshall I have.
I had the transformer (output) rewound as it was putting out about 5W
and the guy who did the work says it's really rocks...
I even have the old 13x8 Eliptical Speakers in the cabinets which I will
wager sound better than my JCM800 full stack.
Go figure...
Tonefactor
Tonefactor may know Marshalls, but if he thinks the OT in Mesa Rectifiers
are toys, he doesn't know OTs or Mesas very well.
>>
I've looked in the back of a few. The trannies looked like they came out
of a Fender Princeton.
Odin Mattes
a Fender Princeton OT transformer. Or he is blind. If you think the OT in
my Triple Rec and a Princeton look anywhere similar to each other, I know
what to make of all of your posts. You have proven yourself to be
uneducated or uninformed about amplifiers.
Tonefactor <tonef...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:01bf14f1$47b3e8f0$052021a6@wshillorins002...
John Huff
<jmg...@nortelnetworks.com> writes:
>
>Do you consider the Rage Against The Machine tone "brutal distortion"
? I do !
>It's a telecaster in a stock JCM 800 2205 (50W) head ! No stompboxes
for
>distortion. "Bombtrack" is quite a good example of a good metal tone.
>
That sound is that head on or near '10'...something most everyday
players can;t do.
Daniel
alann
Me thinks tonefactor bases his "technical" knowledge ( or lack of ) on
information ( mostly wrong ) from opinions gathered from reading usenet groups.
I owned a few Mesa's and for me they didn't appeal to me. They aren't cheaply
built ( by todays standards ).. Every one I had my hands in had very consistant
construction and well laid out PCB's. I just don't like the damn sound of them.
Just way too much mid's for me.
Alan
Odin Mattes
Rectifier. I'm still getting used to it. I think that my problem is that
I'm looking for a tone that I won't be able to describe until I hear it. I
love the sound of a good Marshall, but I'm ready for a change. If I don't
find it in the Mesa, I may try one of the less common high end amps like
Bogner, VHT, Rivera, Soldano, etc...Actually, I've been thinking about
getting a Marshall TSL100 w/1960BV cab and running that amp and my Mesa
Triple Recto side by side. I think the sound of these two half stacks side
by side could be very interesting. It might just be the best of both
worlds. The obvious problem is coming up with the $2000 for the Marshall
rig.
alann <al...@roava.net> wrote in message
news:939782394....@news.roava.net...
Jonrpick
>Tonefactor may know Marshalls, but if he thinks the OT in Mesa Rectifiers
>are toys, he doesn't know OTs or Mesas very well.
No matter what anyone wants an amp to do, tonefactor will recommend a JCM800.
Unless of course, it's to get the "Slash" tone, then anyone playing any guitar
could get that by simply plugging into a 2555. (according to him)
-Jon Pickens