Hum from tube amp - disappears when I touch the front panel
D.R
I have this Laney LC50 II. It hums on the dirty channel. Hum
disappears when I touch the strings. Ok, problem with my
guitar I hear most say? My bridge/strings are earthed to the
ground wire on the jack. I try another guitar. Same deal.
Another high quality ProCo cord, same deal.
So without touching my guitar, I touch the metal on front of
amp, noise disappears. Hmmm, am I grounding the amp?
I am grounding the amp it seems when I touch my strings
also.
However, I pull the guitar cord out of amp, no hum. So it only
hums when guitar is plugged in. Hum disappears when I
earth the amp by touching it or my strings. It as if the front
panel comes alive only when guitar is plugged in.
I had the amp serviced recently. They said it had a loose
earth somewhere and it was fixed. The problem was
reduced. Still there. Previously I was hear a static click
when I touched the amp.
The power cable is fine, and so I even tested the wall socket
to make sure it was properly earthed.
The amp was bought new not even a month ago, but goodness
knows how long it was used in store.
Is this "normal" or am I going mad? Other than that, superb
tone.
D.R.
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:10607533...@kyle.snap.net.nz...
** All perfectly normal - you need to earth *yourself* by touching a metal
part that is earthed to minimise AC hum picked up by your guitar's wiring
and pickups. When ya plays the thing ya touches the strings don't ya ??
Very few guitars have enough metal shielding around all wiring and
pickups to eliminate this.
.............. Phil
PMG
It's normal, AND you're going mad.
Nature of the beast. Tube amps hum, solid state amps his, the more
gain and distortion you use, the more noise you'll have to deal with.
Distortion has a tendency to reduce your signal to noise ratio.
You need to develop an instinct for controlling the noise. Learn how
to work the volume control on your guitar.
Most of us learn to roll off the guitar's volume control pretty fast
when we need to cut the noise. The little finger on your right hand
needs to have good muscle memory for reaching for the volume knob.
That should be incorporated into your playing, as a natural thing.
The volume control(s) on your guitar pretty much need to be in
constant use.
Pete
--
Well, I guess reality is what you make of it. --Bender
D.R
> > tone.
>
>
> ** All perfectly normal - you need to earth *yourself* by touching a metal
> part that is earthed to minimise AC hum picked up by your guitar's wiring
> and pickups. When ya plays the thing ya touches the strings don't ya ??
>
> Very few guitars have enough metal shielding around all wiring and
> pickups to eliminate this.
Thanks for the reply. I am still a little confused. Why is the front panel not
earthed then or the guitar socket on the amp? Earthing these would work,
wouldn't it? Putting an effects pedal in front of the amp with it's own power
supply fixes it. It seems to use the earth of the pedal.
Bob Flint
>Nature of the beast. Tube amps hum, solid state amps his,
I hate to nitpick and I'm not trolling.... but that just isn't true...
It may be statistically correct or whatever - but the tube amps I
build don't hum... but they do hiss if you put the treble up... but
they don't hum even at full volume and bass. Well if you stick your
ear into the cab you may hear some hum, but it's not generally
noticeable. This is of course without a guitar plugged in.
Now the hum would depend on the guitar, and not the amp. If the guitar
hums in my amp it will hum in any amp. If it doesn't hum in any
particular SS amp it won't in mine either.
Also all of the Ampeg V22s I have around here don't hum either - even
at earth shaking volume!
I had a MeSIr Boobie Dual Rectum Fryer here a week ago and it was
quiet on the clean channel but hummed like a bitch on the hi-gain! And
that's all in one amp!!
But as to the problem of 'touch hum' I think it has to do with
grounding the guitars strings... every time I've seen that problem
I've cured it temporarily by clipping an alligator lead onto the
strings and to ground at the jack.
D.R
> grounding the guitars strings... every time I've seen that problem
> I've cured it temporarily by clipping an alligator lead onto the
> strings and to ground at the jack.
My bridge/strings are already grounded to the ground at the jack.
So that's why touching the strings has the same effect as touching
the amp.
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> > Very few guitars have enough metal shielding around all wiring and
> > pickups to eliminate this.
>
> Thanks for the reply. I am still a little confused. Why is the front panel
not
> earthed then or the guitar socket on the amp?
** Huh ??? - you said touching them cured the hum ????
" So without touching my guitar, I touch the metal on front of
amp, noise disappears. "
............ Phil
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
** Your are stubbornly missing the point.
The **reason** the strings on a guitar are earthed is to earth the
player - YOU !!!
............. Phil
the bogeyman
"Bob Flint" <Fl...@nospam.thanks> wrote in message
news:jkgljvk9qkq8jlj7d...@4ax.com...
Huh? Using a clip lead should NOT be necessary - if the guitar has passive
pickups,
there already should be a ground wire from the bridge to any ground in the
circuit.
The problem of "touch hum" is as Phil said - you touch the strings or any
metal
part that should be connected to common ground to ground you.
One way around all this is to go with active pickups. The bridge is usually
NOT grounded and you don't have to ground your body to guitar ground.
And there is NO "touch hum" to deal with.
Ed @ Sonic Surgery
Bill Kahle
"Phil Allison" <phila...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f3ade96$0$4186$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
bk
Bob Flint
<commiese...@phobiacentral.net> wrote:
>
>Huh? Using a clip lead should NOT be necessary - if the guitar has passive
>pickups,
Yes I know it 'should not be necessary' but I was talking about guys
who are constantly playing IN their guitars and break that ground
wire. Or the wire loses contact where it's stuck under the metal, due
to corrosion or whatnot.
I know the hum is actually caused by body capacitance, and the player
should keep in contact with the strings. Is that what he was saying?
Maybe I misunderstood...
Bob Flint
OK .... What is happening is that your body is picking up AC voltage
(it's all around us) and is injecting it through space to your guitars
wiring, and into the amp. You know what happens when you unplug your
guitar and touch the jack? BUZZZZ!! We do that all the time to do
simple sound checks, right? Well that BUZZ is the AC from your body.
You are a signal generator!
When you touch ground, you short out that AC signal, that's why the
amp stops humming! Most people hold the strings all the time, and some
guitars have more conductive bodies then others. If you are in good
contact with ground you won't notice the hum. Also if you are in a
place that isn't picking up a lot of AC then it will be less as well.
I thought that you were originally complaining about a broken ground,
but I see that you are talking about a normal phenomenon.
Phil Allison
"Bill Kahle" <cone....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:XtB_a.97920$3o3.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
** WARNING : BK is mentally unstable - ignore all his posts please.
........... Phil
D.R
>
> " So without touching my guitar, I touch the metal on front of
> amp, noise disappears. "
Touching either the strings OR the amp will stop the hum. So when
not touching the guitar, if I touch the amp, the hum stops. This makes
me think I am grounding the amp.
D.R
> amp stops humming! Most people hold the strings all the time, and some
> guitars have more conductive bodies then others. If you are in good
> contact with ground you won't notice the hum. Also if you are in a
> place that isn't picking up a lot of AC then it will be less as well.
>
> I thought that you were originally complaining about a broken ground,
> but I see that you are talking about a normal phenomenon.
So touching the amp to stop the hum is normal and I am then just grounding myself?
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
** Since when are YOU the ground ???
............ Phil
D.R
Well I am touching the ground, so I guess I am capable of earthing things.
So if I stand away from my guitar (guitar in otherside of room), I walk over
to amp and touch it, humming stops. Why then is this normal?
Jim Anable
Phil, did you get too many whiffs of WD-40?
Why on earth (no pun intended) would you think that the purpose is the ground
the person? It can't be for safety reasons. After all, it is actually
dangerous to be grounded. Once you are grounded, any electrical source is a
danger.
Jim Anable
Are you trying to say that by grounding the person it eliminates signal that
YOU would otherwise inject through EMI or something?
Jim Anable
Well, you could be bleeding interference that you are picking up to
ground. You could be acting as an antenna for EMI. Fluorescent lights?
Nearby radio station? Big gnarly transformer? Dimmer switches? All can
cause this.
I'm jumping in the middle of this thread, so this could be asked and
answered.
I assume it is a three prong cord and proper ground at the wall.
Does the amp have a rocker ground switch on it? If so, take it of the "0"
position and try + or -.
Does the amp input ground directly to the chassis? If not, some RF
buzzing will be solved by a .01 microfarad cap from input ground to
immediate chassis ground.
Jim Anable
If you were trying to say what I now think you were trying to say, I may owe you
an apology. However, the purpose isn't really to ground the player. That's a
means to the purpose. The purpose is to eliminate interference that you may
otherwise cause by providing an easier path to ground, thus reducing
interference.
I take it that's what you were trying to say? If so, why not just tell the guy
instead of playing games?
Bob Flint
You got it!! If the effect bugs you - you could get a ground strap
for your wrist, and connect it to the guitar ground. They make these
things for working on static sensitive parts, they are conductive
material with velcro.
Jim Anable
> buzzing will be solved by a .01 microfarad cap from input ground to
> immediate chassis ground.
I should note that this is often a problem if touching the strings or amp face
INCREASES hum. Another test is if repositioning your guitar cable increases
and reduces hum.
Bob Flint
Gee I HATE to disagree with you, but we are all actually grounded...
not very very well at times, but we are assumed to be at ground
potential. You can't imagine that we are supposed to be at 240 volts
now, can you? Or say, 14400 volts like outside my house? (My pole
fries lots of squirrels)
And you are right about every 'grounded' electrical source is a hazard
- but you have to blame the electric company for that, they hooked one
of their wires to earth, and we happen to be touching it. It would be
quite safe if they didn't, but you can't change the reality.
Almost all of the schemes out there now having to do with grounding
are a sort of coverup of the problem. Why do you have a 3 prong
grounded cord? So that the 'dangerous source of current' as you called
it will be shorted out (to ground) in case of a fault (and blow the
fuse) and therefor you will be 'shielded' against the current.
And why a 'ground fault interrupter' ? Because everyone knows the
cause of most electrocutions is 'grounded people' touching and causing
an imbalance in the power system. They sell these things - they don't
sell 'people insulators'!!
All exposed metal in electrical equipment (including guitar strings)
must serve as this safety shield ground. I imagine that grounding of
the strings helped in the noise factor as well!! And you know what? I
bet the electric company doesn't care!!
Jim Anable
...or you can install active pickups. They are so well shielded that you cut the
bridge ground.
Phil Allison
"Jim Anable" <j...@seattle-attorney.com> wrote in message
news:3F3B09F8...@seattle-attorney.com...
** Yes, the player's body has typically several volts AC relative to
ground - try with a DMM on AC and see how many you are.
Capacitance exists ( a few pF maybe) between a player's body and any
unshielded wiring in the guitar - voila hum injection.
........... Phil
Phil Allison
** You will need full foil shielding around the pots, switches and jack
outlet too.
......... Phil
Phil Allison
> If you were trying to say what I now think you were trying to say, I may
owe you
> an apology. However, the purpose isn't really to ground the player.
That's a
> means to the purpose. The purpose is to eliminate interference that you
may
> otherwise cause by providing an easier path to ground, thus reducing
> interference.
>
> I take it that's what you were trying to say? If so, why not just tell
the guy
> instead of playing games?
** Read the whole thread, the OP kept saying a nonsense - that he was
a ground.
Then test with a DMM how many volts above ground you are on a carpet
floor - then stand on an AC cable and get another reading ......
........... Phil
Bill Kahle
> > >
> > > The **reason** the strings on a guitar are earthed is to earth
> the
> > > player - YOU !!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ............. Phil
> > >
> > >
> > Wrong.
>
>
>
>
> ** WARNING : BK is mentally unstable - ignore all his posts please.
The action wasn't performed with your
belief as the primary objective.
Test it. Disconnect the string ground.
Earth you body. See how well that
instrument now performs.
+ I answered to just screw around with you,
which is fun.
bk
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <phila...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3f3afa39$0$4189$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> > "D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:10608290...@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> > > > ** Huh ??? - you said touching them cured the hum ????
> > > >
> > > > " So without touching my guitar, I touch the metal on front of
> > > > amp, noise disappears. "
> > >
> > > Touching either the strings OR the amp will stop the hum. So when
> > > not touching the guitar, if I touch the amp, the hum stops. This makes
> > > me think I am grounding the amp.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ** Since when are YOU the ground ???
>
> Well I am touching the ground, so I guess I am capable of earthing things.
** So you have bare feet and a damp cement floor in your place ???
How else is your body going to be connected to the ground ??
........... Phil
Jim Anable
That's not my experience, although I use shielded cable for all runs. I have
four active guitars, and I live close enough to 3 TV towers that they'd probably
hit the roof if they fell.
Jim Anable
> "Jim Anable" <j...@seattle-attorney.com> wrote in message
> news:3F3B09F8...@seattle-attorney.com...
> > Phil Allison wrote:
> >
> > > "D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> > > news:10608177...@kyle.snap.net.nz...
> > > > > But as to the problem of 'touch hum' I think it has to do with
> > > > > grounding the guitars strings... every time I've seen that problem
> > > > > I've cured it temporarily by clipping an alligator lead onto the
> > > > > strings and to ground at the jack.
> > >
> > > > My bridge/strings are already grounded to the ground at the jack.
> > > > So that's why touching the strings has the same effect as touching
> > > > the amp.
> > >
> > > ** Your are stubbornly missing the point.
> > >
> > > The **reason** the strings on a guitar are earthed is to earth
> the
> > > player - YOU !!!
> >
> > Are you trying to say that by grounding the person it eliminates signal
> that
> > YOU would otherwise inject through EMI or something?
>
> ** Yes, the player's body has typically several volts AC relative to
> ground - try with a DMM on AC and see how many you are.
Peaked out at 1.8V, and I'm in a hot spot.
Phil Allison
> Phil Allison wrote:
> >
> > ** Yes, the player's body has typically several volts AC relative to
> > ground - try with a DMM on AC and see how many you are.
>
> Peaked out at 1.8V, and I'm in a hot spot.
** Now, allow that the 10 M ohms to ground of the DMM has pulled the
original voltage down by a few times and your body is a fine source of hum
injection.
Only a few pF coupling to the guitar's wiring will inject mVs of AC hum
with any harmonics boosted by 6 dB per octave above 60 Hz.
...... Phil
D.R
> >
> > Well I am touching the ground, so I guess I am capable of earthing things.
>
>
>
> ** So you have bare feet and a damp cement floor in your place ???
>
> How else is your body going to be connected to the ground ??
>
Sure thing. I also stand out in a lightening storm in bare feet with a metal
pole waving straight up from my head. But seriously, you don't need to
stand on wet floor in bare feet to earth something.
Here is an experiment:
With good insulating rubber soled shoes, grab a live wire from your mains,
or stick a knife in a live power socket (the positive one). Are you a ground?
D.R
> > > player - YOU !!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ............. Phil
> > >
> > >
> > Wrong.
>
>
>
>
> ** WARNING : BK is mentally unstable - ignore all his posts please.
Is this a running gag, or is someone at this newsgroup very rude?
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> > > > ** Since when are YOU the ground ???
> > >
> > > Well I am touching the ground, so I guess I am capable of earthing
things.
> >
> >
> > ** So you have bare feet and a damp cement floor in your place ???
> >
> > How else is your body going to be connected to the ground ??
> >
> Sure thing. I also stand out in a lightening storm in bare feet with a
metal
> pole waving straight up from my head. But seriously, you don't need to
> stand on wet floor in bare feet to earth something.
** There are other ways.
>
> Here is an experiment:
> With good insulating rubber soled shoes, grab a live wire from your mains,
> or stick a knife in a live power socket (the positive one). Are you a
ground?
>
** Absolutely not - where did you get this mad idea ?
....... Phil
Phil Allison
"D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
** Rudeness passes for a compliment here ....
..... Phil
jh
I can“t believe it,
Bob, Jim, Phil anyone says that "touching the amp, whithout touching the
guitar reduces the noise level of a gain channel" is completely normal;
You are saying, that the grounding of a perfectly grounded amp (3 prong
plug) can be improved by "human ground"
If the ground is intact and the chassis is earthed and shielded
correctly, all internal grounds in good working order, then the guy is
touching a perfect (=0,0x ohm) connection to ground! What should happen
then? Any EMI should have drowned to earth yet; remember he is *NOT*
touching the guitar...
He“s having trouble; and i don“t think that the amp is earthed at
all....
??????
Jochen
"D.R" schrieb:
>
> Hi guys.
>
> I have this Laney LC50 II. It hums on the dirty channel. Hum
> disappears when I touch the strings. Ok, problem with my
> guitar I hear most say? My bridge/strings are earthed to the
> ground wire on the jack. I try another guitar. Same deal.
> Another high quality ProCo cord, same deal.
>
> So without touching my guitar, I touch the metal on front of
> amp, noise disappears. Hmmm, am I grounding the amp?
> I am grounding the amp it seems when I touch my strings
> also.
>
> However, I pull the guitar cord out of amp, no hum. So it only
> hums when guitar is plugged in. Hum disappears when I
> earth the amp by touching it or my strings. It as if the front
> panel comes alive only when guitar is plugged in.
>
> I had the amp serviced recently. They said it had a loose
> earth somewhere and it was fixed. The problem was
> reduced. Still there. Previously I was hear a static click
> when I touched the amp.
>
> The power cable is fine, and so I even tested the wall socket
> to make sure it was properly earthed.
>
> The amp was bought new not even a month ago, but goodness
> knows how long it was used in store.
>
> Is this "normal" or am I going mad? Other than that, superb
> tone.
> D.R.
Dave Curtis
>** Rudeness passes for a compliment here ....
>
>
>
>
>..... Phil
>
Hi Phil,
Thanks for so very briefly summing up the reason you act the way you
do.
Weird, man.
-DC
"Folk on NGs get annoyed by reading facts - it is so hard to sell
bullshit with them in sight" -Phil Allison
Phil Allison
"Dave Curtis" <dmai...@hotmale.com> wrote in message
news:pdepjvo90k49fmo0c...@4ax.com...
>
> "Folk on NGs get annoyed by reading facts - it is so hard to sell
> bullshit with them in sight" -Phil Allison
** Excellent quote.
.......... Phil
Phil Allison
"jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:3F3CB4B5...@t-online.de...
> Guys,
> I can´t believe it,
> Bob, Jim, Phil anyone says that "touching the amp, whithout touching the
> guitar reduces the noise level of a gain channel" is completely normal;
** He has the guitar strapped on when doing this !!!!!
Same as touching the strings, jack plug ...
.......... Phil
jh
D.R.
some questions:
what happens, when you turn down the vol pot of your guitars?
-hum stays the same; dissapears when you touch the chassis
-hum dissapears, as if guitar cord is not connected to the amp
you put your guitar in a guitar stand; leave the pot open; go to the amp
an touch the front panel
-hum is present and stays the same
-hum dissapears
regards
Jochen
jh
Phil Allison schrieb:
Phil,
where did he mention this?
Jochen
jh
Phil Allison schrieb:
Phil,
where did he write that he has the guitar strapped on?
Jochen
D.R
>
> Same as touching the strings, jack plug ...
No, not always.
Phil Allison
** It is implied.
........ Phil
jh
Phil Allison schrieb:
>
> "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:3F3CCE9A...@t-online.de...
> >
> >
> > Phil Allison schrieb:
> > >
> > > "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > news:3F3CB4B5...@t-online.de...
> > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > > I can´t believe it,
> > > > Bob, Jim, Phil anyone says that "touching the amp, whithout touching
> the
> > > > guitar reduces the noise level of a gain channel" is completely
> normal;
> > >
> > > ** He has the guitar strapped on when doing this !!!!!
> > >
> > > Same as touching the strings, jack plug ...
> > >
> > > .......... Phil
> >
> > Phil,
>
> > where did he mention this?
>
> ** It is implied.
>
> ........ Phil
pleas do us a favor,
read his recent posting....
Jochen
Phil Allison
** I did - there is no problem.
Strapped on, hovering over, nearby.... all same.
......... Phil
jh
Phil,
OK, it´s all the same; let´s assume the guitar is "nearby"; let´s say
4-5 foot away from the amp. The volume pot of the guitar is open; the
amp is switched to it´s "dirty" channel and hums.
D.R. walks to his amp and touches the front pane; the hum decreases
noticable. I think that´s close to the scenario he described. OK?
I don´t get it; why should the hum disappear by touching the amp? Please
explain it tome that i can understand it
regards
Jochen
Phil Allison
>
> Phil,
> OK, it´s all the same; let´s assume the guitar is "nearby"; let´s say
> 4-5 foot away from the amp. The volume pot of the guitar is open; the
> amp is switched to it´s "dirty" channel and hums.
> D.R. walks to his amp and touches the front pane; the hum decreases
> noticable. I think that´s close to the scenario he described. OK?
>
> I don´t get it; why should the hum disappear by touching the amp? Please
> explain it tome that i can understand it
** You will *have* to try it out yourself.
Attach say 150mm of wire to the tip of a jack plug on a guitar lead and
plug the other end into an amp and turn it up. Lay the wire on a wood or
carpet floor. Try moving close and then touch the amp metalwork.
Bet you hear the hum vary.
If not - turn on a fluoresent light in the room and repeat above.
.......... Phil
ILMarchChamp
isn't a problem with the amp, it isn't a problem with the person, it
isn't any of those things. For one, a human being is always a ground.
Thats the way things work. It doesn't have to be the actual ground.
For the other thing, there are three ways. ONLY THREE!!!!!
One - Ground the pluck of the amp agains the center screw of the wall
plate. This I only know works in America.
Two - Get an AC Hum eliminator/Ground lift.
Three - Get a wireless guitar system. These completely get rid of
grounds also. Plus a wireless system creates less feedback.
the bogeyman
Here it it Jochen:
DR said right up front if hum disappears when he touches the strings.
He also sez hum disappears when he touches the chassis.
the bogeyman
Jochen, whether or not the amp is earth grounded (but it actually is),
if a player touches the strings, the tuning keys, the bridge, the instrument
cable's plug handle or the chassis of the amp, since it is all should be
common ground, (which BTW is earthed eventually at the fusebox or
breaker box where neutral meets earth ground) then the player is grounding
himself to earth ground and "cleaning" up the hum from the human body's
capacitance or what have you.
There should be continuity from tuning keys via a ground wire under the
bridge
to the jack ground via the ground in the instrument cable to the amp
chassis.
Touch that grounded metal anywhere and you've grounded oneself.
ILMarchChamp
I'll put my real two cents in. A three prong plug does not always
ground an electronic product. This, I do not know why. But it is true.
It does sometimes, but not always. Like I have said before there are a
few ways of defeating the hum.
I will tell you the things I use on my system to ensure noisless
guitar. I will go through the system from the electric plug all the
way to the guitar.
From the plug I have a surge protector. From the surge protector, I
have a power strip. From the power strip I have the Amp, wireless
system and digital pedal connected up. Into the amp I have a 6 inch
shielded cable connected to an AC hum/Ground lift box, which in turn
is connected to a wirless system. From the amp by way of effects loop
I have a digital pedal.
The two things in this system that I say are a must for anyone are the
surge protector and the AC hum/Ground lift box. I also have a
noisegate which will put a pause to other kinds of hum. If any of this
doesn't make sense, just ask about what needs clarification.
Lord Valve
ILMarchChamp wrote:
> If any of this doesn't make sense, just ask about what needs
> clarification.
Holy shit, an expert. This'll be good...
Lord Valve
American
jh
the bogeyman schrieb:
>
> "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:3F3CF088...@t-online.de...
> >
> >
> > Phil Allison schrieb:
> > >
> > > "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > news:3F3CE8FC...@t-online.de...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Phil Allison schrieb:
> > > > >
> > > > > "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3F3CCE9A...@t-online.de...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phil Allison schrieb:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:3F3CB4B5...@t-online.de...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > I can愒 believe it,
> > > > > > > > Bob, Jim, Phil anyone says that "touching the amp, whithout
> > > touching
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > guitar reduces the noise level of a gain channel" is
> completely
> > > > > normal;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ** He has the guitar strapped on when doing this !!!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Same as touching the strings, jack plug ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > .......... Phil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phil,
> > > > >
> > > > > > where did he mention this?
> > > > >
> > > > > ** It is implied.
> > > > >
> > > > > ........ Phil
> > > >
> > > > pleas do us a favor,
> > > >
> > > > read his recent posting....
> > >
> > > ** I did - there is no problem.
> > >
> > > Strapped on, hovering over, nearby.... all same.
> > >
> > > ......... Phil
> >
> >
> > Phil,
> > OK, it愀 all the same; let愀 assume the guitar is "nearby"; let愀 say
> > 4-5 foot away from the amp. The volume pot of the guitar is open; the
> > amp is switched to it愀 "dirty" channel and hums.
> > D.R. walks to his amp and touches the front pane; the hum decreases
> > noticable. I think that愀 close to the scenario he described. OK?
> >
> > I don愒 get it; why should the hum disappear by touching the amp? Please
> > explain it tome that i can understand it
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Jochen
>
> Jochen, whether or not the amp is earth grounded (but it actually is),
> if a player touches the strings, the tuning keys, the bridge, the instrument
> cable's plug handle or the chassis of the amp, since it is all should be
> common ground, (which BTW is earthed eventually at the fusebox or
> breaker box where neutral meets earth ground) then the player is grounding
> himself to earth ground and "cleaning" up the hum from the human body's
> capacitance or what have you.
>
> There should be continuity from tuning keys via a ground wire under the
> bridge
> to the jack ground via the ground in the instrument cable to the amp
> chassis.
> Touch that grounded metal anywhere and you've grounded oneself.
Hi Ed,
I am a guitar player, and I play mainly axes with single coils AND
grounded strings. I know, that the hum is decreased when I am touching
the strings while playing....acting like a kind of "ground shield".
But I have not yet experienced correctly working AND grounded amps where
the hum dissapears when I touch the amp chassis... Perhaps the grounding
schems in germany are more accurate than the american standards, but
i扉e got to admit, I don愒 think so. A correctly grounded amp is always
a better ground than a human being, wearing (normally at least partly
isolating) shoes.
I still say *this amp has a problem with the internal ground, or in the
worst case a problem with the external earthing...
regards
Jochen
jh
the bogeyman schrieb:
>
> "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:3F3CCE9A...@t-online.de...
> >
> >
> > Phil Allison schrieb:
> > >
> > > "jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > news:3F3CB4B5...@t-online.de...
> > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > > I can愒 believe it,
Ed,
you already said it in your other post:
It愀 continuity Guitar ground => Amp Grounds => earth
what we need here is a correct way of explanation:
*How does String grounding decrease noise*
I know that it works; I simply cannot explain how it really works..
but as I already said:
It works, when you扉e got the guitar strapped on and you are touching
the strings; I have never experienced a decrease of hum or other noises
when I touch the chassis of the amp, when the guit rests in its stand...
In contrary; if an amp decreases its noise level when i惴 touching it on
the bench, I惴 always looking for grounding issues -guess what- most
times they are there...
regards
Jochen
Phil Allison
"ILMarchChamp" <fende...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb2c72d.03081...@posting.google.com...
> PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE!!!!!! It isn't a problem with the guitar, it
> isn't a problem with the amp, it isn't a problem with the person, it
> isn't any of those things.
For one, a human being is always a ground.
** Where does this mad idea come from ??
> Thats the way things work.
** And the earth is flat as well.
( snip even worse madness)
........ Phil
Bob Flint
>Guys,
>I can´t believe it,
>Bob, Jim, Phil anyone says that "touching the amp, whithout touching the
>guitar reduces the noise level of a gain channel" is completely normal;
>
>You are saying, that the grounding of a perfectly grounded amp (3 prong
>plug) can be improved by "human ground"
>
>If the ground is intact and the chassis is earthed and shielded
>correctly, all internal grounds in good working order, then the guy is
>touching a perfect (=0,0x ohm) connection to ground! What should happen
>then? Any EMI should have drowned to earth yet; remember he is *NOT*
>touching the guitar...
>
>He´s having trouble; and i don´t think that the amp is earthed at
>all....
>
>
>??????
>
>Jochen
>
Well, I didn't mention touching the amp... only the guitar, however, I
think you miss the point - I never said touching the amp grounded the
amp - I said touching the ground (of the guitar) grounded THE PLAYER!!
I never said anything else... I guess touching the amp would do the
same. Touching the kitchen sink would do the same too!
Bob Flint
>Even though you guys are bickering a little too much for my taste,
>I'll put my real two cents in. A three prong plug does not always
>ground an electronic product. This, I do not know why.
It always grounds the exposed metal of the product - that is it's
purpose. However, some pro audio equipment has a signal 'ground' that
may be floating with respect to the AC ground. This is referred to as
balanced line.
> But it is true.
>It does sometimes, but not always. Like I have said before there are a
>few ways of defeating the hum.
>
>I will tell you the things I use on my system to ensure noisless
>guitar. I will go through the system from the electric plug all the
>way to the guitar.
>
>From the plug I have a surge protector.
Some surge protectors have RFI suppressors - these keep out a lot of
'buzz'.
> From the surge protector, I
>have a power strip. From the power strip I have the Amp, wireless
>system and digital pedal connected up.
So your guitar doesn't actually connect to the amp? It connects to a
wireless transmitter? Does it ever transmit hum?
>Into the amp I have a 6 inch
>shielded cable connected to an AC hum/Ground lift box, which in turn
>is connected to a wirless system.
Do you need the lift with the wireless? Weird....
> From the amp by way of effects loop
Now this is a place you can get hum from!!
>I have a digital pedal.
what does this do?
>The two things in this system that I say are a must for anyone are the
>surge protector and the AC hum/Ground lift box. I also have a
>noisegate which will put a pause to other kinds of hum. If any of this
>doesn't make sense, just ask about what needs clarification.
I hope you never lift the AC ground!
Bob Flint
wrote:
>OK, it´s all the same; let´s assume the guitar is "nearby"; let´s say
>4-5 foot away from the amp. The volume pot of the guitar is open; the
>amp is switched to it´s "dirty" channel and hums.
>D.R. walks to his amp and touches the front pane; the hum decreases
>noticable. I think that´s close to the scenario he described. OK?
>
>I don´t get it; why should the hum disappear by touching the amp? Please
>explain it tome that i can understand it
The only explanation I could give you is that the guitar is acting
like a 'hum receiver'. Do you understand this? Remember he said it is
only apparent with the guitar plugged in.
The coils in the guitar, along with the metal strings, are a vibration
detector AND a magnetic field detector. You can walk around your house
and use it to find light dimmers, battery chargers, fluorescent lights
- all kinds of things!
Now - the next thing we have is the human - a big ugly bag of water
partially connected to ground through the floor, but still
representing an impedance. As this human wanders around the room - he
interferes with and even captures an electro magnetic field.
He not only can radiate this signal into the guitar, he can affect
other signals and fields in the room. When he touches a ground - any
ground - his signal is diminished. And that affects the guitar.
When you deal with the high impedance of tube amps, and the high gain
of a distortion channel, you start to see weird effects. I can
remember a problem of hum I had that would change if I moved my feet
on the floor! The entire room you are in becomes part of the equation.
If there is a weird connection thru the floor and you stand in it's
path, you will affect it. It's like people killed by standing between
a down power line and a water pipe - current in the ground is
intercepted by them. ouch!
One of the last amps I built had a hum problem only when the volume
pot was at the half-way position. I've seen this effect in some amps.
What is it? It's the wiper of the pot picking up a hum field because
it's impedance is now 500k from ground and hot! I first cured it by
putting a shield in front of the pot. Later I swapped it for a 500k
control to short out the hum.
Aye and it's a weird world we live in...
ILMarchChamp
Why are you slamming me? Just because I actually gave an answer to
someone's question instead of saying nonsense about making fun of the
person with the problem, doesn't give you a right to slam my two
cents.
D.R
> >
> > Lord Valve
> > American
>
> Why are you slamming me? Just because I actually gave an answer to
> someone's question instead of saying nonsense about making fun of the
> person with the problem, doesn't give you a right to slam my two
> cents.
Don't worry about it. I am discovering that this ng is full of egos needing to
be massaged. Don't mind them. Thanks for your 2 cents.
Lord Valve
ILMarchChamp wrote:
> Lord Valve <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3F3D2C29...@ix.netcom.com>...
> > ILMarchChamp wrote:
> >
> > > If any of this doesn't make sense, just ask about what needs
> > > clarification.
> >
> > Holy shit, an expert. This'll be good...
> >
> > Lord Valve
> > American
>
> Why are you slamming me?
That was a slam?
> Just because I actually gave an answer to
> someone's question instead of saying nonsense about making fun of the
> person with the problem, doesn't give you a right to slam my two
> cents.
Was that two cents' worth?
Damn, skins're gettin' mighty thin hereabouts.
Here's a Kleenex, there, there...better?
Lord Valve
Puzzled
Spike
<phila...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> ** And the earth is flat as well.
>........ Phil
No wonder you don't know what your doing...
heck you are still a product of the "dark ages".
Regards,
Spike
Phil Allison
"Spike " <spike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f3df43a...@news.airmail.net...
** Then you must be the Piltdown Man.
............ Phil
ILMarchChamp
> >On 15 Aug 2003 11:28:10 -0700, fende...@hotmail.com (ILMarchChamp) wrote:
>
> >Even though you guys are bickering a little too much for my taste,
> >I'll put my real two cents in. A three prong plug does not always
> >ground an electronic product. This, I do not know why.
>
> It always grounds the exposed metal of the product - that is it's
> purpose. However, some pro audio equipment has a signal 'ground' that
> may be floating with respect to the AC ground. This is referred to as
> balanced line.
It doesn't ground in houses around here, too old, even though the
plugs have three prongs, the third isn't connected to anything, its
just sittin there.
>
> > But it is true.
> >It does sometimes, but not always. Like I have said before there are a
> >few ways of defeating the hum.
> >
> >I will tell you the things I use on my system to ensure noisless
> >guitar. I will go through the system from the electric plug all the
> >way to the guitar.
> >
> >From the plug I have a surge protector.
>
> Some surge protectors have RFI suppressors - these keep out a lot of
> 'buzz'.
Mine doesn't unfortunately.
>
> > From the surge protector, I
> >have a power strip. From the power strip I have the Amp, wireless
> >system and digital pedal connected up.
>
> So your guitar doesn't actually connect to the amp? It connects to a
> wireless transmitter? Does it ever transmit hum?
The wirless system doesn't transmit the hum, but it makes it
impossible to ground the system with you fingers. It transmits
non-ground-type hum. Such as AC hum.
>
> >Into the amp I have a 6 inch
> >shielded cable connected to an AC hum/Ground lift box, which in turn
> >is connected to a wirless system.
>
> Do you need the lift with the wireless? Weird....
Yeah, my wirless is a piece of crap, it doesn't ground anything,
making the whole thing hum with grounding problems.
>
> > From the amp by way of effects loop
>
> Now this is a place you can get hum from!!
That's definately true, I use the noise gate on the pedal all the
time, mutes the noise during pauses. But it isn't grounding hum, its
single coil hum. I don't have reverse wound wiring on my guitar
unfortunately, its too old. But it sounds nice.
>
> >I have a digital pedal.
>
> what does this do?
This pedal just has effects, and a noise gate (very useful).
> >The two things in this system that I say are a must for anyone are the
> >surge protector and the AC hum/Ground lift box. I also have a
> >noisegate which will put a pause to other kinds of hum. If any of this
> >doesn't make sense, just ask about what needs clarification.
>
> I hope you never lift the AC ground!
No, I just the the ground lift box to ground the system much like you
would ground with against your hand.
Dave Curtis
>> "Folk on NGs get annoyed by reading facts - it is so hard to sell
>> bullshit with them in sight" -Phil Allison
>
>
> ** Excellent quote.
>
>
>
>.......... Phil
Which also explains why you post what you do. And you're actually
proud of that?
You really *are* weird, Phil.
-DC
Yet Another Miles
> It doesn't ground in houses around here, too old, even though the
> plugs have three prongs, the third isn't connected to anything, its
> just sittin there.
That's just plain crazy.
You really need to get that fixed.
RonSonic
I'm coming in late and haven't read the 3,497 replies, so you've already been
told this before..... it is normal.
Now let me go read the replies.
Ron
Phil Allison
"Dave Curtis" <dmai...@hotmale.com> wrote in message
news:mopsjvog84hh31ioi...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:38:02 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:
>
> >> "Folk on NGs get annoyed by reading facts - it is so hard to sell
> >> bullshit with them in sight" -Phil Allison
> >
> >
> > ** Excellent quote.
> >
> >
> >
> >.......... Phil
>
>
> Which also explains why you post what you do. And you're actually
> proud of that?
** Having trouble reading Dave ? Or is the underlying concept
beyond you ?
Q. What kind of people get upset by facts ?
A. The same ones who are selling bullshit.
................. Phil
Phil Allison
> > So your guitar doesn't actually connect to the amp? It connects to a
> > wireless transmitter? Does it ever transmit hum?
> The wirless system doesn't transmit the hum, but it makes it
> impossible to ground the system with you fingers. It transmits
> non-ground-type hum. Such as AC hum.
** Three impossible things before breakfast ...
............. Phil
D.R
> told this before..... it is normal.
Ok. Problem solved. Flamewar over.
Peace out.
Porky
so clean, I went into spasms of Pete Townsend windmill strokes,
wrapped the cord around my neck, and threw myself off the stage!
Porky
Porky
really serious about your hum problem, do what the professionals do.
Get yourself star grounded. Attach #18 ground wires to earrings,
eyebrow, nose, lip, and nipple rings. (You can daisy-chain multiple
earrings, but keep lip, nipple and other body parts on seperate wires
to avoid ground loop problems.) After all that soldering, the rest is
easy. Just twist the ends of all the wires together and attach to an
aligator clip!
Porky
jh
"D.R" schrieb:
D.R.
You call *that* a flame war? It愀 just been an accelerated thread...
regards Jochen
Yet Another Phil
I prefer to use a
real alligator...
marino....@gmail.com
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:53:26 +1200, "D.R" <D...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> >> When you touch ground, you short out that AC signal, that's why the
> >> amp stops humming! Most people hold the strings all the time, and some
> >> guitars have more conductive bodies then others. If you are in good
> >> contact with ground you won't notice the hum. Also if you are in a
> >> place that isn't picking up a lot of AC then it will be less as well.
> >>
> >> I thought that you were originally complaining about a broken ground,
> >> but I see that you are talking about a normal phenomenon.
> >
> >So touching the amp to stop the hum is normal and I am then just grounding myself?
> >
>
> You got it!! If the effect bugs you - you could get a ground strap
> for your wrist, and connect it to the guitar ground. They make these
> things for working on static sensitive parts, they are conductive
> material with velcro.
i think people who profesionally use welding devices have these, like for welding sensitive electronics componenets which could be destroyed by static, so perhaps that strap could be found in those shops or whatever
boardj...@gmail.com
While this has been most "entertaining" (painful) to wade thru all of this....if you have a guitar with passive p-ups, the slightly increased hum/buzz when not touching the strings is normal and....just the way it is. Get used to it, or get active p-ups.
benj
> On Saturday, October 12, 2013 5:52:45 AM UTC-4, marino....@gmail.com
> wrote:
.
>> i think people who profesionally use welding devices have these, like
>> for welding sensitive electronics componenets which could be destroyed
>> by static, so perhaps that strap could be found in those shops or
>> whatever
recommend for guitar playing because it makes sure you are grounded and
in case of a short circuit or improperly wired ground circuit you can't
let go (as you usually (but not always) can with strings) and you die.
Got it?
> Wow. Just....wow.
>
> While this has been most "entertaining" (painful) to wade thru all of
> this....if you have a guitar with passive p-ups, the slightly increased
> hum/buzz when not touching the strings is normal and....just the way it
> is. Get used to it, or get active p-ups.
touch ground (strings) is an indication that the instrument is not
properly shielded. It has little to do with passive-active except that
active pickups are usually much better shielded than passives which is
why they don't hum as much as well as the fact active pickups have a
lower impedance output so that doesn't pick up as much hum when your
guitar shielding is crap. This hum is NOT "just the way it is".
On the other hand single coil pickups have something called "single coil
hum" (duh) which DOES NOT go away when you touch ground. This hum MAY go
away or at least get less for certain orientations of the guitar (not
necessarily a one that is playable). If you have that THEN that is normal
and the only way to get rid of it is either to get away from the hum
source (usually transformers in amps, lighting, etc) stand in a position
that nulls the hum, live with it, or change to a humbucking pickup.
You guys had better stick to arguing about politics...
boardj...@gmail.com
Here's an idea....quit obsessing over tiny little things that don't amount to shit so you can spend more time play'n....
Phil Allison
"benj"
> Sorry guys, this is just plain wrong. Hum/buzz that goes away when you
> touch ground (strings) is an indication that the instrument is not
> properly shielded. It has little to do with passive-active except that
> active pickups are usually much better shielded than passives which is
> why they don't hum as much as well as the fact active pickups have a
> lower impedance output so that doesn't pick up as much hum when your
> guitar shielding is crap. This hum is NOT "just the way it is".
enough.
Most of the classic Fender guitars and basses have an apalling lack of
shielding, no shielded wire was used let alone lining the routed out areas
with metal foil.
Lost count how many times I have explained to owners that when Leo did these
designs in the 1950s - there were no ( phase controlled ) dimmers and no
flouro lights on or near stages. These are the major culprits when it comes
to electric field, mains noise injection into guitar wiring - aka " buzz" .
Plus amps with massive built in overdrive and pedals with even more gain had
yet to arrive too.
I well remember one case where the drummer ( an electrician by trade)
installed several 4 foot long fluoro lights on the ceiling of the room where
the band rehearsed - replacing the previous incandescents. The instant
result was way more light and a massive buzzing noise through the
guitarist's brand new Telecaster. He was very pissed about it.
It was forbidden to touch the Fender so I offered a possible solution of
fitting grounded, metal mesh screens over each fluoro. It was sneered at
and never tried.
... Phil