Stupid Black Beauty Cap Fad?
Brian Hill
vintage electronic equipment since 1976 and playing guitar even longer. My
question is this. Where did the idea come from that leaky unreliable black
beauty caps have some special magical audio characteristics? If they were so
great Fender and Gibson would still be using them as well as all the custom
audio and amp mfgs. Its an urban legend guys. Don't fall for it.
Brian
Spike
Great post. What are some other urban legends that you've come
across?
Regards,
Spike
On Sat, 01 Mar 2003 01:34:40 GMT, "Brian Hill" <jonny...@jps.net>
wrote:
recruiterman
news:Q6U7a.6225$M85.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Hi Guys. Im new here but not to music or electronics. I've been restoring
> vintage electronic equipment since 1976 and playing guitar even longer. My
> question is this. Where did the idea come from that leaky unreliable black
> beauty caps have some special magical audio characteristics?
Who said they had to be leaky and unreliable? I've got a lot of Black Beauty
and Black Cat caps. None of mine are leaking. Maybe you're thinking of
Astrons, which are known to leak. All of my Black Beauty's and Black Cat's
are fine and in great shape. Why do some amp manufacturer's use Allen
Bradley resistors, which aren't made anymore? Why do some amp manufacturers
use 30 year old tubes that aren't made anymore? Where did the idea come from
that a 30 or 40 year old vintage amp or guitar sells for 10 times what it
did when it was new?
>If they were so great Fender and Gibson would still be using them as well
as all the custom
>audio and amp mfgs. Its an urban legend guys. Don't fall for it.
The caps aren't made anymore, that's why Fender and Gibson aren't using
them, just like Fender isn't using the blue molded caps anymore. Hell, most
production amp companies use the cheapest caps they can get, along with PC
board mounted tube sockets, cheaper transformers, etc... They aren't
building the amps for tone IMHO, they're building them as cheap as they can
get away with, for the companies bottom line. And while we're at it, how
come we're not all using Mullard's in our amps? The reason, they're not made
anymore.
Mikey
Miles O'Neal
> The caps aren't made anymore, that's why Fender and Gibson aren't using
> them, just like Fender isn't using the blue molded caps anymore. Hell, most
> production amp companies use the cheapest caps they can get, along with PC
> board mounted tube sockets, cheaper transformers, etc... They aren't
> building the amps for tone IMHO, they're building them as cheap as they can
> get away with, for the companies bottom line. And while we're at it, how
> come we're not all using Mullard's in our amps? The reason, they're not made
> anymore.
Aw come on, Mikey, it was a decent first
time rant. Don't spoil it by getting all
logical about things!
Besides, you seem to imply that some
big companies might be more interested
in the bottom line than about quality
or tone or otherwise taking care of
their customers.
Whou could be so cynical?
-Miles
I mean, besides you and me...
Brian Hill
Matchless and a Soldano amp hear that are all hand wired with no Black caps
or Mullard valves. Gee! I guess its all crap? I need to be more logical I
guess? Im not trying to piss off anyone I just don't understand the logic.
Those Black beauties were discontinued because they were junk!
Brian
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:GbZ7a.202$6i7.396...@news.onr.com...
nuke
today. My favorites are the ones I got from Randall Aiken.
There ain't a damn thing in the world wrong with 715 and 716 series Orange
drops either.
<< So you think its impossible to get a quality capacitor? Or tube? I've got a
Matchless and a Soldano amp hear that are all hand wired with no Black caps
or Mullard valves. Gee! I guess its all crap? I need to be more logical I
guess? Im not trying to piss off anyone I just don't understand the logic.
Those Black beauties were discontinued because they were junk!
Brian >><BR><BR>
--
Dr. Nuketopia
Spam filtering is off. AO-Hell catches most of it now.
recruiterman
about some other things, like when I see people paying hundreds of dollars
on Ebay for a vintage SF or BF Fender chassis that looks like a POS. Just
because it's old, doesn't make it great. I also can't understand people
paying thousands of dollars for a Fender Relic guitar that Fender
intentionally distresses to make it look old and beat up. That seems silly
to me. Just buy an American Standard and beat it up yourself if you want to
save a few thousand.
I build Hoffman style PTP boards and I use Mallory 150 and DMF series caps.
The Mallory 150 is metallized polyester and is about 1/4 the size of a
comparable Black Beauty or CDE Black Cat. Many amps guys feel that the
Mallory 150 sounds the closest to the old caps (yours truly included). The
Black Beauty's are too large for my board layouts, but I have some of them
in case I need to replace some caps in a vintage amp, like my 68' SF Super
Reverb. I love the new caps, I spent over 1 year researching the cap market.
Most of the older caps have a 20% or 10% tolerance whereas it's easy today
to get a cap with a 5% tolerance, which is almost becoming the standard.
There are also 1% tolerance caps available, which can come in handy in the
phase inverter circuit or anywhere you want to have matched caps, without
having to match them yourself.
Components, like the electronic industry itself, have come a long way in the
last 30 years. Manufacturers discontinue products for a wide variety of
reasons, maybe they replace them with an improved product, maybe they
discontinue them because they don't want to make them anymore (i.e. Allen
Bradley Carbon Comps). You may think the Black Beauty's are junk and you're
entitled to your opinion, but there are other players out there that may
love the Black Beauty's, because that was what was in the amp that they had
as a kid, or they're restoring a vintage amp and they want to keep it as
original as possible, or they like the tone of those caps or whatever. I've
also used plenty of Orange Drops and I like them as well, I think that SBE
makes a quality cap. Everybody has their personal favorites for whatever
reason. Also, if memory serves me correctly, the Black Beauty's are mylar
and foil. I don't believe that they're oil caps, which means that they do
not leak, since there's nothing to leak. I have a lot of Black Beauty and
Black Cat caps, I've never seen anything leaking out of any of them.
Mikey
"Brian Hill" <jonny...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:Dg38a.6855$M85.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Elvis Paisley
EP
"Brian Hill" <jonny...@jps.net> wrote in message news:Q6U7a.6225$M85.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
recruiterman
LOL. Personally, I've bought tubes from LV, never had any problems. Those
JJ 6L6's are just gorgeous!
Mikey
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:P6FHO4DJ37681.9839351852@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Elvis Paisley
EP
In article <8NicnafoX8B...@comcast.com>
recruiterman
LOL I wonder what you would have called me if I had a lot of problems with
LV's tubes and didn't like the JJ 6L6's? Would that have made you feel
better?
Mikey
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:Z2700C2H3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Elvis Paisley
The real EP
"recruiterman" <recrui...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:kKWdnd6CMcv...@comcast.com...
Elvis Paisley
I know what you're trying to do.
You're just a weasel with no gonads if you have to use an anonymous mail
service to pretend to be me.
The real EP
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:P6FHO4DJ37681.9839351852@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Elvis Paisley
I know it's you using an anonymous mail service to post as me. Only problem
is, is you're not posting when I usually do, you fake shit.
What's the problem, lost your balls in Vietnam?
Can't post as yourself? What a chickenshit.
The real EP
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:Z2700C2H3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
recruiterman
tubes, and yes, I really like the JJ 6L6's. Sorry you can't handle that.
Mikey
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:IRJY9WMO376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Elvis Paisley
I don't need an anonymous mail service to hide my identity, but a
chickenshit like you sure does.
What's the problem? Lost your balls in Vietnam?
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:IRJY9WMO376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Slick Willy
I know what you're trying to do.
You're just a weasel with no gonads if you have to use an anonymous mail
service to pretend to be me.
LV
American
Slick Willy
I know it's you using an anonymous mail service to post as me. Only problem
is, is you're not posting when I usually do, you fake shit.
What's the problem, lost your balls in Vietnam?
Can't post as yourself? What a chickenshit.
LV
American
Elvis Paisley
Har.
EP
"recruiterman" <recrui...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:nZ6dncJ2d8o...@comcast.com...
Elvis Paisley
I know what you're trying to do.
service to pretend to be me.
The real EP
Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message news:P6FHO4DJ37681.9839351852@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
>
Elvis Paisley
chickenshit like you sure does.
What's the problem? Lost your balls in Vietnam?
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:IRJY9WMO376...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Elvis Paisley
I know it's you using an anonymous mail service to post as me. Only problem
is, is you're not posting when I usually do, you fake shit.
What's the problem, lost your balls in Vietnam?
Can't post as yourself? What a chickenshit.
The real EP
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:Z2700C2H3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Slick Willy
Take it from me, this chump is an anonymous loser. Just look at the header.
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:TW8SXHVO3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Slick Willy
There's only one real EP and this one is fake, folks.
Take it from me, this chump is an anonymous loser. Just look at the header.
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:ZI5HUKDR3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Slick Willy
There's only one real EP and this one is fake, folks.
Take it from me, this chump is an anonymous loser. Just look at the header.
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:9XHNI2JH3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Slick Willy
There's only one real EP and this one is fake, folks.
Take it from me, this chump is an anonymous loser. Just look at the header.
LV
American
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:5IP6003F3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
recruiterman
Mikey
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
news:TW8SXHVO3768...@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Miles O'Neal
> So you think its impossible to get a quality capacitor? Or tube? I've got a
> Matchless and a Soldano amp hear that are all hand wired with no Black caps
> or Mullard valves. Gee! I guess its all crap? I need to be more logical I
> guess? Im not trying to piss off anyone I just don't understand the logic.
I hate to say this, but I'm not sure you applied any.
I don't see how you could possibly get that ouit of
what Mikey and I said.
I buy quality caps all the time for my work. But the
guys doing mass production of amps that have to be sold
as cheaply as possible to satisfy the bonehead MBAs
who think today's bottom line is all that matters, and
increasingly unthinking customers willing to take whatever
is thrown at them the cheapest, don't buy that quality.
They buy the cheapest thing they can squeeze by with, for
the most part.
> Those Black beauties were discontinued because they were junk!
Right. Just like every other product that has been
discontinued.
I have no idea why that particular line was discontinued.
If you have some actual evidence that this is the reason,
I'd love to seee it. But you appear to have made a huge
leap of logic based on little evidence - from what you have
posted so far.
-Miles
Miles O'Neal
> Damn EP, that's the first shot you've taken at me since, well, I think ever.
> LOL I wonder what you would have called me if I had a lot of problems with
> LV's tubes and didn't like the JJ 6L6's? Would that have made you feel
> better?
Elvis swears that isn't him. I couldn't testify either
way in a court of law, but I *can* say it's posted
from elsewhere than Elvis's normal stomping grounds.
Brian Hill
> Brian Hill wrote:
> > So you think its impossible to get a quality capacitor? Or tube? I've
got a
> > Matchless and a Soldano amp hear that are all hand wired with no Black
caps
> > or Mullard valves. Gee! I guess its all crap? I need to be more logical
I
> > guess? Im not trying to piss off anyone I just don't understand the
logic.
>
> I hate to say this, but I'm not sure you applied any.
> I don't see how you could possibly get that ouit of
> what Mikey and I said.
>
> I buy quality caps all the time for my work. But the
> guys doing mass production of amps that have to be sold
> as cheaply as possible to satisfy the bonehead MBAs
> who think today's bottom line is all that matters, and
> increasingly unthinking customers willing to take whatever
> is thrown at them the cheapest, don't buy that quality.
> They buy the cheapest thing they can squeeze by with, for
> the most part.
Ok. I agree to a point. Yes they sell a lot of crap today but its hard to
get a bad capacitor now days with the process and materiels they use. I mean
if a place was making bad caps they would'nt be in biz long since they got
to cater to all i.e.-Military,Comercial and dorks like me and you that sit
around fixin radios and amps.
>
> > Those Black beauties were discontinued because they were junk!
>
> Right. Just like every other product that has been
> discontinued.
>
> I have no idea why that particular line was discontinued.
> If you have some actual evidence that this is the reason,
> I'd love to seee it. But you appear to have made a huge
> leap of logic based on little evidence - from what you have
> posted so far.
No Its fact that Sprague Black Beauties were discontinued. I restore a lot
of military equipment as well as amps and other radios and a few Co.s like
Hammarlund which made SP-600 receivers and other things had problems with
those caps. The military was a big contract for Sprague. They shitcaned
those caps after that. But Im sure they'll bring em back after they see what
their selling for on Ebay :)
--
73 Brian Hill
Brian's Radio Universe
http://home.jps.net/~jonnysocko/
recruiterman
> Ok. I agree to a point. Yes they sell a lot of crap today but its hard to
> get a bad capacitor now days with the process and materiels they use. I
mean
> if a place was making bad caps they would'nt be in biz long since they got
> to cater to all i.e.-Military,Comercial and dorks like me and you that sit
> around fixin radios and amps.
Brian, If that was true, then every company in the world that manufacturers
a product must be making quality products, which isn't the case at all IMHO.
Caps are just like anything else, there's great ones and not so great ones.
Some use excellent materials, some do not. There's approximately 1,200
companies in the world that make capacitors. Many of them private label for
other companies, so the brand X cap that you bought from what you thought
was a cap company in the U.S., turns out to be made somewhere in China or
wherever. Taiwan's very big with companies that manufacture components, and
they're becoming a major player in the electronics market as well. Xicon is
a private labeler/distributor, they buy components from companies all over
the world and have their name put on the component, so there's no telling
where the component originated from. Not every cap company has the latest
and greatest manufacturing equipment, nor does every company use the same
quality materials or quality control standards. It's like Papa John's TV
commercial say: "Better ingrediants make better pizza". How come most
Chinese tubes are crap? How come everybody raves about Mullards, and RCA's,
Phillips, GE, Brimar, etc...? They're all tubes, shouldn't they all be the
same/sound the same? There is a big difference, IMHO, when a company uses
better quality materials, better manufacturing practices, better QA/QC,
etc...
> No Its fact that Sprague Black Beauties were discontinued. I restore a lot
> of military equipment as well as amps and other radios and a few Co.s like
> Hammarlund which made SP-600 receivers and other things had problems with
> those caps. The military was a big contract for Sprague. They shitcaned
> those caps after that. But Im sure they'll bring em back after they see
what
> their selling for on Ebay :)
One thing that I think you have to remember, is that there is a big
difference in the specs required by guitar amps versus the specs required by
a fighter jet or piece of military equipment. What's good for a guitar amp
may not be good for a precision piece of military equipment, and vice versa.
With guitar amps, what we're going for is tone. A component that, on paper
sounds like it would work great in an amp, may actually turn out to sound
like crap. Another component, that has crappy spec's that would have most
people shaking their heads may sound great in the amp. That same component
may not be a great choice for a fighter jet, or tank or whatever, but it may
sound great in an amp. What it boils down to is that regardless of the specs
of the component, or what materials it's made of, the final authority from
an amp perspective is how it sounds. It still has to be rated at the proper
voltage and has to be the right value, but the end result is that it has to
sound good to the owner of the amp. On paper, polypropylene caps have much
better specs than polyester, but a lot of players (me included) prefer the
tones of the polyester cap. On paper, the Orange Drop 716's should be great,
but I've heard a lot of players say that they sound harsh to them. It's all
personal preference in the amp world.
Mikey
CNJ
"Elvis Paisley" <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
> Watching Vlave's toady bitches squirm makes me feel great!
EEEEEWWWe!!! that juss sounds NASTY...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003
TD Madden
recruiterman
of imposters in this group.
Mikey
"CNJ" <cnjo...@xcoastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:Rmw8a.9001$M85.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Kahuna
>
> It's hard to beat a quality tape-wound epoxy sealed polypropylene cap made
> today. My favorites are the ones I got from Randall Aiken.
>
> There ain't a damn thing in the world wrong with 715 and 716 series Orange
> drops either.
>
--
> Dr. Nuketopia
Amen! Polypropylene dielectric is one of the best if you are
looking for clean audio. Very low dielectric absorption. BTW
ceramic NPO isn't too shabby but not as good as poly.
regards,
Kahuna
RonSonic
<gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
>Fuck you again Lupi.
>
>I know it's you using an anonymous mail service to post as me. Only problem
>is, is you're not posting when I usually do, you fake shit.
>
>What's the problem, lost your balls in Vietnam?
>Can't post as yourself? What a chickenshit.
>
>The real EP
Dude, I don't know who this is or why he thinks it's funny. I'm sure
he'd explain it pretty much the way you have, expressing shock that
not everybody thought it was LoL ROTFL hilarious. I like the
"chickenshit" accusation for someone who uses a phoney name and email
address.
Hell, I'd even feel bad for you being subjected to that if you
yourself hadn't posted so much crap that reads pretty much like your
little shadow here. As ye sow....
I would even have helped in the dignity department by emailing this
privately, except I'd have to go find your real email address. As
things are, fuck it. Enjoy reading your kind of shit. Maybe you think
these posts are somehow worse than what you post - to the rest of us
it really doesn't matter much. Sorta like a brand name that's been
bought by some offshore consortium, as long as the product's the same
nobody cares.
Ron
Delenda est Carthago
RonSonic
Apply the duck test and well, it doesn't really matter does it.
Let's see
Real EP: Vicious vindictive homoerotic perversion.
Fake EP: Vicious vindictive homoerotic perversion.
Who cares. Neither one of 'em is even amusing.
Ron
Delenda est Carthago
Kahuna
> No Its fact that Sprague Black Beauties were discontinued. I restore a lot
> of military equipment as well as amps and other radios and a few Co.s like
> Hammarlund which made SP-600 receivers and other things had problems with
> those caps. The military was a big contract for Sprague. They shitcaned
> those caps after that. But Im sure they'll bring em back after they see what
> their selling for on Ebay :)
>
> --
> 73 Brian Hill
I just replaced a dozen "Black Beauties" in my Collins 75A-4
with 715 Orange Drops. Cleared up all kinds of drift problems in
the AVC.
So what are they fetching on Ebay? I hear the audiophooles like
'em as they were used in old Mac tube amps.
regards,
Kahuna
Bill Kahle
"nuke" <lar...@aol.commode> wrote in message
news:20030301112919...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> It's hard to beat a quality tape-wound epoxy sealed polypropylene cap made
> today. My favorites are the ones I got from Randall Aiken.
>
> There ain't a damn thing in the world wrong with 715 and 716 series Orange
> drops either.
is Aiken sellin'? Have you
ever messed around with
the low cost Illinois?
My .02: why F around with
the black beauties? They leak
as bad as the yellow astrons.
Bill
nuke
The hi-K types tend to add distortion and can sound pretty nasty in some cases.
It's hard to get the low-K stuff on purpose a lot of times as a low-volume
repair part. (onesy-twosey quantity) so I'd tell most people to go with mica or
polystyrene (best).
It's not that there's anything special about the low-K ceramics, it's just
today you ask for a ceramic cap and you are likely to get anything and have no
idea what the parts guy handed you.
>Amen! Polypropylene dielectric is one of the best if you are
>looking for clean audio. Very low dielectric absorption. BTW
>ceramic NPO isn't too shabby but not as good as poly.
>
>regards,
>Kahuna
--
Dr. Nuketopia
Spam filtering is off. AO-Hell catches most of it now.
nuke
don't appear to be anything particularly special, except for having long,
strong axial leads which are very handy for hand-wiring work.
I've used Xicons and other stuff. The dielectric formulation is the most
important characteristic, followed by conductor type (film and foil or
metalized). Construction differences like epoxy dipping or end-capping make a
difference with microphony and seal quality. One bad thing about orange drops
and any other epoxy-dip cap is when you bend the leads, the epoxy inevitably
breaks around the lead. That could compromise long-term reliability if humidity
enters the part.
Also, most parts are made for automatic insertion into printed circuit boards.
Not always easy to adapt to hand-wired eyelets, tag boards or PTP amps.
>Yep. Btw, what brand
>is Aiken sellin'? Have you
>ever messed around with
>the low cost Illinois?
>My .02: why F around with
>the black beauties? They leak
>as bad as the yellow astrons.
>
>Bill
Miles O'Neal
> Ok. I agree to a point. Yes they sell a lot of crap today but its hard to
> get a bad capacitor now days with the process and materiels they use.
Not necessarily. If I am, buying huge quantities, and
I just want a cap that will last 5 years, that's what
I will get.
Nevermind the huge fiasco with bad 'lytics that nearly
took down some mobo mfrs...
> I mean
> if a place was making bad caps they would'nt be in biz long since they got
> to cater to all i.e.-Military,Comercial and dorks like me and you that sit
> around fixin radios and amps.
They make a huge spectrum of products, from dirt
cheap to top notch. It's like switches. You can
get killer switches, but you can also buy stuff
from RS that might last 5,000 make/breaks, but then
again it might not.
...
>>>Those Black beauties were discontinued because they were junk!
>>
>>Right. Just like every other product that has been
>>discontinued.
>>
>>I have no idea why that particular line was discontinued.
>>If you have some actual evidence that this is the reason,
>>I'd love to seee it. But you appear to have made a huge
>>leap of logic based on little evidence - from what you have
>>posted so far.
>
> No Its fact that Sprague Black Beauties were discontinued.
I didn't dispute that. I'm wondering what your evidence
is as to *why* you think they discontinued them. That's
all.
-Miles
Brian Hill
ended because of mil contract research which found them to be unreliable in
milspec equipment.
--
73 Brian Hill
Brian's Radio Universe
http://home.jps.net/~jonnysocko/
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message > I didn't dispute that. I'm
recruiterman
doesn't require mil spec components. Black Beauty's might not be good enough
to be used on the Space Shuttle, compared to the tight tolerance of today's
mil spec components, but then again, a component that's used on the Space
Shuttle may not sound good in a guitar amp. And sound/tone is what we're
after. I use modern caps (Mallory's) in my boards and amps, but I wouldn't
be opposed to using a Black Beauty, or Black Cat either if I had the room on
my boards. Some guys prefer them, some may not. It's all about personal
preference. I could also ask you why someone would want an old restored
radio, when today they can get a digital receiver, with surround sound,
digital tuning, maybe even satellite radio reception, etc... Don't todays
receivers/radio's offer better reception, smaller size, less distortion,
better tuning stability than the old radio's? Why would someone want to
listen through an old radio that's 30 or 40 years old, when we have much
better made radio's available with tighter tolerance components? It's
probably the same reason that some guys like playing their guitar through a
30 or 40 year old amp, personal preference.
Mikey
"Brian Hill" <jonny...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:6H99a.2392$wJ1.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Miles O'Neal
> All I know is what I was told by military techs like my dad. That they were
> ended because of mil contract research which found them to be unreliable in
> milspec equipment.
Ah. I'd love to know the details.
nuke
Ah. I'd love to know the details >><BR><BR>
Miles,
You got to realize that "mil-spec" doesn't mean anything unless you know what
spec the military is throwing around.
Sometimes the only difference is the markings are not water soluble - which was
the case on a lot of JAN "mil-spec" tubes for instance.
Tom Brown, Jr.
All a Black Beauty capacitor can offer that a nice clean modern capacitor
usually won't are (1) leakage, (2) failures, and (3) a nasty oily mess to
clean up. If you want the "sound" of a Black Beauty capacitor but would
prefer to avoid the circuit instability and failures that BBs are known for,
just measure your favorite one with an impedance bridge (and possibly a
megger) and determine its exact impedance (expressed in resistance and
reactance) and then pick out a capacitor with the right reactance and
parallel a resistor with it to achieve the same amount of dc leakage that
the BB was doing.
What you are doing, of course, is altering the circuit so that it will
behave as if there was a crappy capacitor in it (a higher than normal
leakage one) but you won't have the risk of a good ol' Black Beauty (1)
shorting and frying other components in addition to shutting your amp down,
(2) shifting in just how bad it does leak, resulting in circuit instability
or (3) leaking that nasty oily mess all over your gear. I've seen all three
failure modes many times and I can't imagine why anyone would want to use
the nasty things. And I've cleaned up more of that oil than I ever wanted
to see....
There's no magic in a Black Beauty capacitor that gives it a special "tone"
that another capacitor doesn't have. All they have that a good capacitor
doesn't (or shouldn't) is dc leakage. And you can have that by just adding
a resistor in parallel to the capacitor.
That's not just my opinion.....it's measurable, verifiable physics.
A capacitor is a device that puts an impedance in a circuit. Nothing more,
nothing less. The impedance can be described (totally) in terms of
resistance and reactance. As long as you're not exceeding the voltage
rating and flashing across the insulating material, nor exceeding the
current rating and overheating the capacitor, that impedance is all that
determines the "tone" of a capacitor. And even in those cases (over
voltage, or over current), any change in performance is still accompanied by
a measurable though possibly momentary or varying change in impedance.
Here's an excerpt from another posting I found on the Usenet that describes
a BB's most common failure mode:
[Begin quote]
Tektronix scopes were the first place I ever came across
Black Beauty caps. I was rehabing a 513D scope,
and EVERY ONE WAS BAD!. They all leaked oil, and they all
had high DC leakage.
I asked an engineer at Tektronix why they used such junk,
and they said it was because Mallory did something to make
one of the owners mad, and he swore that Tektronix would never
ever buy anything made by Mallory.
He explained to me why the BB caps fail.
If you look carefully at the banded end of the
BB cap, you will see a thicker area of the lead right up
against the black body. That is actually a piece of brass
tubing. When the caps are made, the oil is injected into
that tube, and then the lead is fitted in the hole, and soldered
to form the seal. When you solder the leads on the cap, if you
don't use a heatsink, enough heat travels up the lead to melt
the solder, and make a cold joint. The oil will then leak
out. The capacitor will then fail at some future point.
Tek used the caps on terminal boards, and the solder joints
were 1/4" or so from the ends of the caps, so all of their older
scopes failed this way, until they learned to heat sink the leads.
Even if you didn't kill the cap by soldering, the plastic will
eventually shrink a little bit, breaking the seal between the tube
and the body creating a leak. This makes NOS caps a problem.
I wouldn't even consider even for one minute using a NOS Black Beauty cap.
There are so many vastly superior caps available.
-Chuck
[End quote]
An interesting side-issue to all this is that even if you did want to
emulate a Black Beauty with a good capacitor and a resistor, you would not
be emulating the way the amp sounded when it was new. Black Beauties are
not long-term stable and get worse with age, so the probability is that when
a given Black Beauty was new, it didn't affect the amp as it would today.
:-)
Oh, well.....
Tom
"recruiterman" <recrui...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:aiGdnb7Hap4...@comcast.com...
Elvis Paisley
the feigned indignation to cover up the fact that he is indeed the EP
imposter.
BTW, Loopi Loser, you should be bright enough to know I've never posted
using AOL.
Lupi Poopi:
1-whiny victim
2-chickenshit
3-dickless as usual
4-not the alleged computer expert?
5-liar
6-bestiality buff
7-TOADY
8-phoney
9-Satan shitcake
10-loser with too much time on hand
Go bite yourself, lesboy
"Lupi Zopi" <lupiz...@rumageusa.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.18cdd5041...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> Slick Willy wrote:
>
> > Fuck you again Lupi.
> >
> > I know it's you using an anonymous mail service to post as me. Only
problem
> > is, is you're not posting when I usually do, you fake shit.
> >
> > What's the problem, lost your balls in Vietnam?
> > Can't post as yourself? What a chickenshit.
> >
> > LV
> > American
>
> Edward,
>
> I almost missed this post buried in all the AGA bullshit noise! [1]
>
> Fuck you, Ed!
>
> I've been calling you a psychotic drunken stalking waste of
> protoplasm for longer than I can remember. I don't have to
> hide to do that! [2] I don't have the time to waste on reading
> your pathetic victim-shit posts these days, and frankly, you're
> not worth reading, you're a complete bore [4].
>
> Speaking of "chickenshit", for years we've watched you:
>
> 1. attack the regulars
> 2. spoof the regulars.
> 3. post via Google.
> 4. post via AOL.
>
> It's no stretch for me to believe that you're spoofing yourself via
> a remailer. (it fits the Paisley MO... I'll show them I'm a victim,
> "poor me, everybody's picking on me").
>
> Ed, you're a fucking coward! You're a fucking "chickenshit"!
>
> You struggle to been seen as a victim (LV was mean to me, Pete was
> mean to me, dw was mean to me, Miles was mean to me, Lupi was mean
> to me, everybody is mean to me... me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me,
> bla, bla, bla, bla, boohoo, bla, bla, bla, bla...).
>
> Boo, fucking, Hoo! (poor abused ED... *NOT*)
>
> I feel so sorry for you, *NOT*!
>
> Get back on your meds...
>
> Hey, just in case I forgot, ROT IN HELL!
>
> Oh, and BTW, EAT SHIT AND DIE!
>
> I ignore most of your pathetic shit but *FUCK YOU* this time!
>
> Lupi
>
> [1] Much of it posted by you!
> [2] Hey ED, you're a fucking pile of worthless toxic waste. [3]
> [3] I'm sure folks a tired of me telling you what a pile of shit
> you are! [6]
> [4] Apparently, you miss me. [5]
> [5] but you're subhuman shit not worth my (or anybody's) time!
> [6] And I've been calling you a worthless pile of shit since
> you crawled back into AGA [7]
> [7] BTW, how's your lower unit doing these days, [8]?
> [8] Mr. Dickless
>
>
Miles O'Neal
> << Brian Hill wrote:
>
>>All I know is what I was told by military techs like my dad. That they were
>>ended because of mil contract research which found them to be unreliable in
>>milspec equipment.
>
>
> Ah. I'd love to know the details >><BR><BR>
>
> spec the military is throwing around.
I *do* realize. That's why I'd love
to know the details. Were they really
crap (there have been cases), or did
they fail to meet some spec the cap
mfrs had simply never paid attention
to, because in their world nobody cared?
Appearance, size, oddball stress test,
what?
Miles O'Neal
> Hi Mikey-
>
> All a Black Beauty capacitor can offer that a nice clean modern capacitor
> usually won't are (1) leakage, (2) failures, and (3) a nasty oily mess to
> clean up.
Oil? In a Black Beauty??? Do tell!!!!!!!!
All the BB's I've ever seen were plastic (mylar).
They weren't all that reliable, but they didn't
tend to play Exxon Valdez all over the place.
-Miles
Tom Brown, Jr.
Yep. As that fellow said in the post that I quoted, that's one of the main
failure modes. The seal gets broken and the oil starts leaking.
I seriously doubt that the military quit using them for some "hangnail"
issue..... I suspect it was because they just failed way too often.
I've seen so many of them fail in Tektronix instruments and Tektronix didn't
over stress components. They were very conservative about component usage
with a goal of high performance with a low failure rate. If BBs failed in
Tektronix instruments then they'd fail in anything.
They really are crap.
I guess it's not all that amazing to see BBs sold for real money in a day
when companies can sell $600 power cords to audiophiles and $300 patch cords
and $10,000 sets of speaker cables (and the porcelain insulators to keep
said speaker cables off your wooden floor). Once, in a discussion of
high-dollar power cords, I asked someone promoting them what he thought
about all that "cheap, pedestrian grade romex" that was in his house ahead
of the $600 power cord...... He couldn't really deal with that. So he
ignored it. ;-) And went on blathering about the incredible sound quality
improvement he got when he plugged his $600 power cord into his CD player.
Man.....
Tom
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:QpC9a.314$QF4.88...@news.onr.com...
Brian Hill
gear like I do you would see that after the 50s around when the BBs came out
they almost immediately quit using them and switch to mica/disc types.
--
73 Brian Hill
Brian's Radio Universe
http://home.jps.net/~jonnysocko/
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message > I *do* realize. That's why
Brian Hill
I replace em all the time. They are split down the side most the time. I can
send pics and you can see what they look like and the type equip I take em
out of. If you want Miles
recruiterman
mentioned Mallory Black Beauty's? My Black Beauty's are Sprague, and they
don't leak anything because they're mylar and foil, and none of the Black
Beauty's that I have (Sprague) have a brass insert with solder where the
"oil" is leaking. Both sides here may indeed be right, but I think that both
sides are talking about totally different caps.
Mikey
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:QpC9a.314$QF4.88...@news.onr.com...
recruiterman
"Tom Brown, Jr." <mmct...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:QZp9a.216$mp6...@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> Hi Mikey-
> All a Black Beauty capacitor can offer that a nice clean modern capacitor
> usually won't are (1) leakage, (2) failures, and (3) a nasty oily mess to
> clean up.
Hi Tom. My Black Beauty's don't leak oil, there's no leakage because they're
mylar and foil.
> Tektronix scopes were the first place I ever came across
> Black Beauty caps. I was rehabing a 513D scope,
> and EVERY ONE WAS BAD!. They all leaked oil, and they all
> had high DC leakage.
>
> I asked an engineer at Tektronix why they used such junk,
> and they said it was because Mallory did something to make
> one of the owners mad, and he swore that Tektronix would never
> ever buy anything made by Mallory.
Is he saying that they didn't want to use Mallory Black Beauty's? Or, that
they didn't want to use Mallory so they used Black Beauty's? The reason that
I ask is that my Black Beauty's were made by Sprague.
> If you look carefully at the banded end of the
> BB cap, you will see a thicker area of the lead right up
> against the black body. That is actually a piece of brass
> tubing. When the caps are made, the oil is injected into
> that tube, and then the lead is fitted in the hole, and soldered
> to form the seal. When you solder the leads on the cap, if you
> don't use a heatsink, enough heat travels up the lead to melt
> the solder, and make a cold joint. The oil will then leak
> out. The capacitor will then fail at some future point.
My Sprague Black Beauty's don't have this brass tubing that you're speaking
of. They're mylar and foil so there's no oil to leak out.
Mikey
Miles O'Neal
> Hi Miles-
>
> Yep. As that fellow said in the post that I quoted, that's one of the main
> failure modes. The seal gets broken and the oil starts leaking.
No, not yes.
Unless I'm remembering wrong, this discussion started about
Sprague Black Beauties. Did it not?
Because Sprague Black Beauties are paper/mylar/foil caps.
There *is no oil* in them!
Tom Brown, Jr.
Miles? The ones that I am referring to are from instruments made in the 50s
and possibly early 60s. And yes there was most definitely oil in the ones
that I have seen.
There may be some miscommunication here......
Back in the 60s and to this day I have seen and heard the capacitors that I
am talking about referred to as "black beauties". Now, just as "kleenex"
can refer to "a tissue" or an actual Kleenex brand tissue, maybe the term
"black beauty" has been genericized to some degree and may have been used to
refer to capacitors other than the ones bearing the trade name. I don't
know for sure about that.
But I do know that the capacitors that I am referring to have been referred
to as black beauties by more people than just me for a long time and they do
have oil in them (until they fail and it leaks out, that is!). I have
washed it off my hands and out of equipment on many occasions.
So, if you and I are indeed referring to different capacitors, I'll just
quote Emily Litella.... "nevermind".... :-) Sorry for the
misunderstanding.
Tom
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:HgW9a.327$k33.286...@news.onr.com...
Tom Brown, Jr.
I think you must be right in your other post about Miles and I (and you)
talking about different capacitors. As I posted to Miles, I can't say at
all whether the ones I'm referring to (and the fellow whose message I quoted
was referring to) are Sprague or what brand they might be......but they have
been referred to as black beauties for a long time by a lot of folks. It
could very well be a generic use of what was really a trade name.
Believe me, I wish the ones that I am referring to had NOT had oil in
them..... It really made a mess when it leaked out.
Say, Mikey, what era are the ones you are referring to from? Maybe they
changed the design of the capacitor at some point and the ones I'm referring
to are older than the ones you have..... Wouldn't be the first time a trade
name had been recycled....
Interesting.....
Thanks for the info, and sorry for the misunderstanding.
Tom
"recruiterman" <recrui...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gPqcnXYOV6z...@comcast.com...
recruiterman
LOL! All of my Sprague Black Beauty's have red lettering, I've seen some
that had yellow lettering. My caps are NOS, I'm not sure of the exact
vintage, but they've probably have a few years on them. However, they look
almost brand new, they've never been used so they're in excellent shape.
I've been auctioning some of my NOS caps and I have some digital pics of the
Black Beauty's. I'd be happy to email you some pic's of the caps. Send me an
email off line and let me know.
Mikey
"Tom Brown, Jr." <mmct...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Ra2aa.28182$jq5....@fe10.atl2.webusenet.com...
Miles O'Neal
> What era are the "black beauty" capacitors that you are referring to from,
> Miles? The ones that I am referring to are from instruments made in the 50s
> and possibly early 60s. And yes there was most definitely oil in the ones
> that I have seen.
I don't know all the years they were made; I've seen them
in a variety of 60s amps, radios and TVs, at least.
What did these caps look like?
-Miles
Tom Brown, Jr.
rings. When I have time, I'll pull out an old Tek junker and photograph a
couple of `em....
Tom
"Miles O'Neal" <m...@rru.com> wrote in message
news:f4iaa.349$yX1.92...@news.onr.com...
Tom Brown, Jr.
Thanks for the info. If you don't mind, please do email me a photo of some
of your BBs and when I can, I'll pull an old Tek junker scope and photograph
a couple of what I've always heard referred to as BBs and will send it to
you.
I wonder, now, who made the ones that I'm referring to..... I have some Tek
parts/vendors reference books.....maybe I can tell from that.
Interesting stuff!
Tom
"recruiterman" <recrui...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EI-cnc-S5vo...@comcast.com...
Spike
The color coded ones were made by Sprague, some were put in Marantz
Gear, 7s, 8s and so on. They were numerous lots not made from acid
free paper and they deteriorate. As told by a retired Marantz tech.
Regards,
Spike