1969 Marshall Super Lead 100 watt - What am I, CRAZY???
Kent Pearson
cause I'm sure I'll flip it over pretty fast. There is absolutely *no way*
in hell that anyone could use anything like that by itself in a club and
sound good. But, like I said, I want to experiment with preamping it with
the TSL and see what I get.
Here's a few preliminary details on the amp. I'll try to get some pictures
and post them later.
The first thing I noticed was that it's definitely seen it's gigging days.
This thing hasn't been babied in the least, and the tolex on the box has
quite a few battle scars. The original logo disappeared somewhere along the
way, and someone put a reissue gold logo on it. It looked like shit,
because a) it's too shiny for the rest of the amp, and B) the pegs don't
line up with the original holes, so the lettering was misshapen. I've
removed it until I can figure out what to do.
I don't know if this is the original box, because the aluminum panel has
about 1/8" stripe across the bottom where it looks like it was in another
box that covered that area. It looks like some sand/grit was rubbing
against it. The box is the older flat lip style, as opposed to my '72 which
I seem to recall had a curvature to the lower edge under the panel. The
feet are small rubber feet. There's a white painted aluminum tag on the
back with black lettering which reads;
AMPLIFIER
Manufactured in England by
JIM MARSHALL PRODUCTS LTD.
A.C. ONLY
Frequency 40/60 cycles
Volts 110/250
Watts 375
CAUTION
Disconnect mains supply before
removing back panel
There are two speaker outputs on the back panel, impedance and voltage
selectors, a round connector for a three prong detachable power cord (same
as on the old Hiwatts), and the two fuse holders.
The lettering says SUPER LEAD 100w, and the serial number is SL/A 262?A.
The fourth digit was double stamped. It looks like one stamp was an 8, the
other a 0.
Front Panel;
JMP, power and standby switch, *round* pilot light, presence, bass, middle,
treble, volume I, volume II, and the four inputs. The lettering has almost
completely worn off "INPUTS" and "Indicator, and there is nothing left to
designate which switch is which.
We took it out of the box, and it didn't look to me like much has been done
to it. Almost all of the solder joints were daubed with a copper colored
inspection dye. One of the big blue can caps had obviously been replaced -
it was a lighter blue - the other three matched with a darker (older
looking) blue.
If the power transformer was replaced as the guy claimed, it looked as old
as the rest of the amp. All three transformers are corroded a dark color,
as is the entire chassis. There's a little rust on the transformers, but
nothing extreme.
The sticker on the chassis is dated 18-9-69. Get this . . . that's exactly
one year, to the day, before Jimi Hendrix died.
We fired it up, using a brand new reissue 1960AX 4x12 cab loaded with the 25
watt "greenbacks". I let him play it first. He immediately turned it full
and started playing some power chords. JESUS, was this friggin' thing
LOUD!!!!!!!! I had to put my fingers in my ears! (This was in a garage,
mind you.) Then I tried playing through it. Yep. Exactly as I remembered
these amps. A friggin' sonic weapon. Absolutely no tone, without turning
it to excruciating levels. Too friggin' LOUD!!! Who needs that kind of
power?? WHERE am I gonna play that I could ever turn this thing enough to
sound good??? Also the tone . . . very very boxy and mid-rangy, for the
most part. I jumped the channels and tried various combinations. God DAMN,
was this frigging thing loud!!!!!!!!!!! I don't remember my old Marshalls
being as loud as this one, loud as they were. This could be the loudest amp
I've ever played through. (Great. Just what I need.) I also tried the
guy's Boss Metal Zone pedal with it. Downright NASTY sounding, and I ain't
so sure it's in a good way.
So, I thought about it again for a brief moment. I remembered my original
plan . . . to get it, regardless. BECAUSE, I don't plan to use it by
itself, but rather as slave power for my TSL to see what the combination of
the two sounds like. I also remembered that I have an attenuator I've
successfully incorporated in the past.
The guy wanted $1,600. for the amp and the cab. (The cab is was brand new
in January, never taken out of the house, and dead MINT). I offered him
$1,500, and he threw in the pedal. I could have probably got it for less,
but I figured $100 off was cool. I didn't want to be greedy. He wanted
$1,200. just for the head, so that means I got a brand new 1960AX cab for
$300. and a (new) Boss pedal for free. It ain't like I'm gonna lose money
when I turn this stuff back over. What do you think? Ok deal?
Summary (so far);
What's to gain by this? I'm gonna refresh my memory on these SL's and
remember why I ditched them in the first place, in the face of all the folks
who like to bash on TSLs and DSLs while extolling the virtues of these
proverbial dinosaurs. After all, things change and time distorts our memory
often times. There is the possibility that I could be mistaken after all
these years. Now I'll have them BOTH, side by side, to A-B. And I think I
already know what the outcome is gonna be, judging by what I heard tonight.
The TSL still *eats* that Super Lead up for breakfast and spits it back out
again by lunch, in terms of a versatile and USABLE amp on the small, medium
and large club circuit. However, I am allowing for the possibility that the
two together might be a good thing. One thing for sure, by time I'm
finished, there will be absolutely NO doubt in my mind. The subject will
then be laid to rest, in my mind, once and for all. Anyone who wants to
still insist otherwise can do as the Lord often suggests . . . shit in their
hat and step on it! :-))
Kent Pearson
Kent Pearson
black, not the greenish-black that my other old Marshalls were. I know my
cabs were metal handled GREENISH colored, with the wicker-type cloth. . .
can't remember about the color of the heads. Those old cabs of mine, BTW, I
got 'em used in '72. They had Airline tags hanging off every handle, from
all parts of the world. I've always wondered who might have owned them
before me! (Eric? Jimi? Sure wasn't Joe Schitt, The Rag Man!)
~kp
Kent Pearson
sound is between the 25w greenbacks and the G12T-75s, now that I'll have
them both to A-B side by side. You really can't tell much from the online
samples over a sound card and PC speakers.
~kp
PMG
<bluesguit1@aol<remove>.com> wrote:
[snip]
>The TSL still *eats* that Super Lead up for breakfast and spits it back out
>again by lunch, in terms of a versatile and USABLE amp on the small, medium
>and large club circuit. However, I am allowing for the possibility that the
>two together might be a good thing. One thing for sure, by time I'm
>finished, there will be absolutely NO doubt in my mind. The subject will
>then be laid to rest, in my mind, once and for all. Anyone who wants to
>still insist otherwise can do as the Lord often suggests . . . shit in their
>hat and step on it! :-))
>
>Kent Pearson
I wouldn't be so hasty about passing judgement on this amp.
As I see it, some very large mistakes you're likely to make are trying
to use you TSL as a preamp for the Superlead, having the TSL and the
Superlead together as comparisons, owning the Superlead as an
investment, and not getting the Superlead into the hands of a good
tech to have it tweaked so that you can give it half a chance.
That amp should stand on it's own, and IMO it will be at it's best
when it's not being compared to an amp it isn't. If you put an old
Marshall in a gain competition with a newer Marshall, then we all know
that the newer Marshall has higher gain, and you've basically just
wasted your time.
In my opinion, one of the first things that you need to do is get that
amp into the hands of a good tech who you have good communication
with, and get the thing set up to suit your tastes. And then learn to
use it for what it is. Talk to people like Scott Colborn, and others
who have a lot of first hand experience successfully using the amp.
Otherwise you're likely to be fighting a loosing battle with an amp
that you've already repeatedly claimed wasn't suited for what you do.
Pete
JTM50
tech.
Lloyd
in article iFus8.9644$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com, Kent Pearson
.com> at bluesguit1@aol<remove wrote on 4/8/02 10:02 PM:
RoccaforteAmps
with my fever?
It was real nasty.
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, JTM50 <lgi...@telus.net> wrote:
> Kent before you do any serious comparisons you should have it check out by
> a
> tech.
I hear what you're saying. What's not surprising, though, is that this amp
reminds me of the last three early vintage Super Leads I owned. I can only
describe it as a loud, harsh, unmusical, aggressive sonic assault.
What will the tech look for? A have the schematic and tube voltage chart
for a '72, are these the same?
Regarding comparisons, again, I plan to try to incorporate the best of the
new with the best of the old and see what I come up with. I already know
that the SL *by itself* simply *cannot* cut the mustard for what I
personally need an amp to do in a club situation. There is absolutely no
doubt in my mind about that. Sonic "road-rash" ain't fun for anyone. But I
am allowing for some interesting possibilities combining the two. Mind you,
I'm talking about using the SL as a power amp and the TSL as the preamp.
Unconventional, of course. Who would expect anything else from me?
Finally, your advice about having it gone over by a tech is recieved as good
advice. Again though, I ask, what will he be looking for?
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, mws...@aol.comp (mark ) wrote:
> Hard to believe there was ever a time and place for that beast.
Man, you got *that* right!
> Of course, in '69 a "PA" often meant a Shure Vocal Master.
You know, I saw Cream on their "Farewell Tour", at the Miami Stadium.
That's what they were using. There were something like 6 to 8 Vocalmaster
columns on each side, arranged in a semi-circle. (I seem to recall seeing
something that indicated they were rented from a local music store)
~kp
Kent Pearson
Must be. I just want to settle the issue in my own mind, once and for all -
"the old vs the new" bullshit. Now I've got 'em both, side by side. A
1960's SL and a '98 TSL. So far, the TSL is so far out in front, it ain't
even worth laughing about. A comparison would be absurd. We'll see what
the combination offers. That's where I'm placing my bets. As for the SL
alone, I ain't into driving my audience out of the room or losing gigs.
But, I'll tell y'all what . . I'm the kind of guy who's not too big to admit
it when I'm wrong. I *will* keep you posted regarding any
comparisons/observations about the two. You gotta admit, there ain't a lot
of gigging musicians out there who have both, *and* are interested enough to
sink the dough to dig deep into the heart of the matter. I'm out for blood.
~Kent Pearson
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, PMG <avo...@attbi.com> wrote:
> getting the Superlead into the hands of a good
> tech to have it tweaked so that you can give it half a chance.
>
> That amp should stand on it's own, and IMO it will be at it's best
> when it's not being compared to an amp it isn't. If you put an old
> Marshall in a gain competition with a newer Marshall, then we all know
> that the newer Marshall has higher gain, and you've basically just
> wasted your time.
More gain, more tone, and *all* the options of reverb, effects loops, etc.
> In my opinion, one of the first things that you need to do is get that
> amp into the hands of a good tech who you have good communication
> with, and get the thing set up to suit your tastes. And then learn to
> use it for what it is. Talk to people like Scott Colborn, and others
> who have a lot of first hand experience successfully using the amp.
It seems like we're talking about is certain modifications, Pete, to a
greater or lesser degree. Since this amp is somewhat road-worn, the one
saving grace it has as far as resale is that it *hasn't* been modified,
whether for the better or worse. It is a completely stock 1969, which
should make it more desirable than my old '72. If it had been modded,
there's no way on God's green earth that I'd have ever paid the kind of
money I paid for it. Now, I'm not completely above modding it, but I'd need
to be convinced that it would be for the better and still give it a lot of
thought. My feeling is that an amp either has it or it doesn't. If we're
talking about custom amps, then it ceases to be a real Marshall and become
something else. That "something else" may be a good thing, but never the
less, it's still *something else*. And if you're gonna have something else,
you may as well have it custom built from scratch and leave the vintage
stuff for whoever may want it, stock, as it is. . . . I think.
> Otherwise you're likely to be fighting a loosing battle with an amp
> that you've already repeatedly claimed wasn't suited for what you do.
True enough. As I said, I need a memory refresher. It's been 22 years
since my last Super Lead. That's a long time.
~kp
PMG
I don't know Kent. You're going into this with decided results in
your head. I have no objection to you preferring the TSL. Really.
But you've already decided what the results are before you started.
And you're telling us the results even though you've only had this amp
for a few hours.
Just looking at your whole attitude on the subject in this thread, I
have no reason to believe that you'll use the Superlead the way it
should be used, or that you're really capable of being objective about
judging the amps.
Like I said in the last post, you need to get the thing into the hands
of a good tech, and you also need to learn how to use it and get a
feel for your new piece of equipment.
But if you're only going into this whole venture to prove to everyone
that the TSL is better suited for your purposes, then fuck it, that's
not news to anyone. Your last sentence sums up: "I'm out for blood."
Yeah, well there you go, just what I want to hear from someone who's
claiming to be doing a test between two amps.
No offence intended by my cynicism Kent, but come on now, give this
amp a chance and use it the way it's intended, or get rid of it.
Pete
John Stax
Kent needs an amp with some overdrive. It's obviously a standard 100W
Marshall SL will not break up at 'club levels', so it needs a little
tweaking. The Marshall Kent just bought may also need a little servicing.
Why don't you guys (Doug and Kent) call eachother and talk amp-tone. If this
talk goes well, why not ship the amp to Doug? He can service it and tweak it
a little so Kent can use it for his gigs. Maybe with an option that Doug
buys the amp back if Kent isn't satisfied (because it doesn't have 'verb and
I see Doug bidding on amps here sometimes).
Good idea or not?
Cheers,
John.
WaBo
Let me add my little contribution to this thread ;o)
I think that the Super Lead is more than an amp ! !
The Super Lead puts you in a cloud of sound and power ! !
The Super Lead is a drug you can easilly get addicted to....
I play straight ahead (punk influenced) Rock'n'roll and I' ve
been through all kinds of Marshall and always return to SL...
I just got one red that was out of factory 6 months after yours ! !
After 2 years without playing any electrics.... my blood is
coming back to life....
I realised I was SL cold turkey ;o))
That amp has to my opinion the best way to get and amplify
what the guitar is going through ! ! !
Just my contribution ! ! though
WaBo
PMG
wrote:
Kent does need to talk to someone like Doug who is very much in touch
with what it takes to make an old Marshall work properly.
Pete
PMG
What you've got there is an amp that's full of parts that have been in
the amp since 1969, 33 years. And they've all drifted from their
original values. So we're no longer talking about an amp that's stock
the way Marshall delivered it, it got over being *that* way the hell
over 25 years ago. It's an old amp in need of maintenance.
Not only that, but those old amps were more geared up for tweaking
than the newer amps are. And a tweak is *not* a mod. A tweak would
amount to changing a cap or resistor value here or there to help voice
the amp for your needs. Setting the bias to suit your personal needs.
A mod is when you redesign a circuit and make drastic alterations to
the original design. You've got 3 channels in your TSL to adjust your
sound from, but that wasn't the situation in '69. Back then an amp
could be easily tweaked. So why is that a problem now.
You have an opportunity that you'll pass up if you think that old
deteriorated parts are more valuable than an amp that's working
properly. You didn't pull that amp out of a time machine, you bought
it old and beat with apparently no serious attempts to keeping it
working to it's original specs anyhow. If it had, it wouldn't have
all those original parts in it.
Your TSL's parts aren't 33 years old, so let's not pretend that you're
running a valid comparison test if you leave the Superlead full of 33
year old parts. I'm not saying that the thing should be gone through
an have all new parts put into it, but normal maintenance is normal
maintenance, and it does need that at a bare minimum.
Pete
Mike C.
sounds better than either one alone.
That way you get the gain and effects, and then you also get the
openess/shimmer of the Superlead.
I'm experimenting with a hotplate/slave combo for these two amps now, but i
think i have grounding/strange electrical problems.
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:GHws8.13237$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
John Stax
it
> sounds better than either one alone.
> That way you get the gain and effects, and then you also get the
> openess/shimmer of the Superlead.
Don't you need to connect some kind of dummy-load to the JCM2000 then?
Mike C.
output section. I know it works because i stuck the output cable in my mouth
and didnt get a shock.
(J/k) ;P
I am planning to try the JCM with my hotplate as soon as i can figure out my
strange grounding problem with the two amps connected.
"John Stax" <as...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ub5kv1s...@corp.supernews.com...
winnard
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
I'm very curious about this too.
winnard
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "Mike C." <mcos...@gte.net> wrote:
> Try running your JCM2000 effects out to the superlead. Its what I do, and
> it
> sounds better than either one alone.
> That way you get the gain and effects, and then you also get the
> openess/shimmer of the Superlead.
That was exactly my thought before I bought it. I just haven't had time to
try it yet. The idea is a good one, and I know it'll work. The only
question left is whether or not I'll gain enough in tone to make it worth
lugging an extra head.
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "Mike C." <mcos...@gte.net> wrote:
> No, the JCM2000 has an output mute, which switches off the signal to the
> output section. I know it works because i stuck the output cable in my
> mouth
> and didnt get a shock.
I have to wonder about this, and I'll tell you why. I've been using loop
#2's send to go to my tuner. When I pute the mute on, the tuner still gets
the signal. o problem. But what worries me is that I can still very
faintly hear amplified signal coming out of the speakers, although it's very
very faint - almost inaudible, but it's there. For this reason, I'd be
afraid to run it without a load of some sort.
~kp
John S. Shinal
>> One further thought . . . I'm real curious to see what the difference in
>> sound is between the 25w greenbacks and the G12T-75s, now that I'll have
>> them both to A-B side by side. You really can't tell much from the online
>> samples over a sound card and PC speakers.
>
>
> I'm very curious about this too.
Ditto - I'm more interested in this than the amps, actually.
Kent Pearson
Ah, the never ending headaches. I just wonder if it's worth it.
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, PMG <avo...@attbi.com> wrote:
> I don't know Kent. You're going into this with decided results in
> your head. Really.
> But you've already decided what the results are before you started.
> And you're telling us the results even though you've only had this amp
> for a few hours.
Right, as I said I knew what to expect from a solitary SL ahead of time. I
still haven't conducted my "experiments" yet, which I fully expect to yeild
different results.I have no objection to you preferring the TSL.
>
> Just looking at your whole attitude on the subject in this thread, I
> have no reason to believe that you'll use the Superlead the way it
> should be used,
You're right, Pete.
> or that you're really capable of being objective about
> judging the amps.
>
Well, I don't know about *that*. You must remember that a large part of my
feelings are based on the fact that these amps used to be my bread and
butter back in the '70's. I'll never forget the struggles I had with them
back then.
>
> But if you're only going into this whole venture to prove to everyone
> that the TSL is better suited for your purposes, then fuck it, that's
> not news to anyone.
No, no, that's not it.
> Your last sentence sums up: "I'm out for blood."
> Yeah, well there you go, just what I want to hear from someone who's
> claiming to be doing a test between two amps.
I'm talking about tone when I say "I'm out for blood", I don't mean that as
a bad thing related to the amp.
>
> No offence intended by my cynicism Kent, but come on now, give this
> amp a chance and use it the way it's intended, or get rid of it.
Oh, yes, I will.
~kp
Mike C.
Maximizer after the effects send then plug that into the superlead. I really
does make a big difference in tone. The '2000 is "thinner" in tone, even
when cranked with a hotplate. But i agree, if i had to use just one stock,
it would be the '2000.
The BBE 482 is either loved or hated. Everyone seems to agree that it sounds
great in a non-band situation. The main complaint is that it sucks out mids
(which i dont really agree with, i think some people need to learn how to
use their amp's eq). It really make the tone of my TSL shine, and adds a
final stage of eq before the superlead. The additional EQ on the superlead
give a tone of tonal varieties as well. The superlead is so loud, i just
need to put it on 2-3, and its loud and very clean so there is very
little/no distortion of the tsl gain and effects.
As soon as i get my grounding/electrical problems with slaving figured out,
I'll try various combo's with my hotplate and post the results/settings if
you are interested.
Michael C.
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:C1Cs8.25796$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Mike C.
should have blown up long ago if its bad to do I'm guessing. I tried getting
a definitive answer here a while back, but no one could give me one.
It may be the same as running the amp idle with no load connected.
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:J4Cs8.25936$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
RoccaforteAmps
touch
>with what it takes to make an old Marshall work >properly. >>
Heres a copy of the latest
emails from Steve Shaw
whos SL I just modded:
Lizzy,AC/DC,Hendrix,all to the nines. It absolutely screams. I will get to
Harmony Central w/in the week.
Steve
And:
Doug,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back with you since I got my amp back.
I've been on the road the entire month of March, the month from hell. But
anyway, I have finally gotten the proper time to take my amp through its
paces and it SMOKES. The overdrive is fantastic. The versatility with the
preamp gain is giving me hours of tweaking pleasure. I saw your ad in Guitar
Player mag last month, it looked great. Thanks for everything and I hope all
is well with you.
Take Care and thanks again,
Steve Shaw
-----Original Message-----
From: Roccafo...@aol.com [mailto:Roccafo...@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 6:30 PM
To: Shaw, Steve
Subject: Re: AmpQuestions
RoccaforteAmps
voltage chart
>for a '72, are these the same? >>
KP,
have me mod this amp,
you wont go back(TSL).
Doug
Mike C.
in my Marshall 1960B cab.
THERE IS NO COMPARISON. TRY THESE SPEAKERS IF YOU CAN!! ;)
The g12t-75's sounded like flat garbage compared to the g12h's. It was like
getting a whole new guitar rig. But then again, my sonic "taste" is geared
to early VH - which these do very well.
I've never heard 25 watt greenbacks in person, but supposedly the g12h 30
watt is similar but has a bigger lower end with more lower range mids as
well. Its a totally "non-scooped" speaker, unlike the g12t-75.
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:rzvs8.11131$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
> One further thought . . . I'm real curious to see what the difference in
> sound is between the 25w greenbacks and the G12T-75s, now that I'll have
> them both to A-B side by side. You really can't tell much from the online
> samples over a sound card and PC speakers.
>
> ~kp
>
RoccaforteAmps
(snipped the rest)
Great post,
Doug
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "Mike C." <mcos...@gte.net> wrote:
> As soon as i get my grounding/electrical problems with slaving figured
> out,
> I'll try various combo's with my hotplate and post the results/settings if
> you are interested.
I am.
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, roccafo...@aol.com (RoccaforteAmps) wrote:
> have me mod this amp,
I might. I just have a few concerns.
1) cost of labor, parts and shipping on top of what I already paid (probably
too much, given the beat-up
condition)
2) the fact that it won't be a Super Lead any longer
3) what if I don't like it?
How much modification are we talking about?
As for restoring it to original specs, I wonder how far it's off? Pete
brought up some very valid points about the components drifting. How much
is a little and how much is a lot? And how much difference can it make?
This amp *will* get some tone, albeit dry as hell. The thing is, again,
it's wayyyy too loud.
I'm gonna try it out with my power soak and back it off about two notches
and see how it does. Right now, I don't have time to play with it. Maybe
before the week is out. (I'll tell you what, if I had to gig with this amp
this weekend, I'd be doing some serious sweating right about now.) After I
play with it a bit more, I'll have a better understanding of what I need or
want to do..
Meanwhile, on the side, I'm thinking about cosmetic restoration. Any
thoughts? My idea was to see if I could buy a new empty Marshall reissue
box, and put it in that. As I said, a reissue logo has different pin
placement. Or I suppose I could have the original box renovated by someone
like Plexi-Palace. Also, wondering about replacing the front panel and
knobs. Will the new panels retro-fit a 1969? (Remember, it's got the round
pilot light.) Another thing . . the new Marshalls have the push-on knobs.
Can one get the original type with the set screws? Comments from the group?
(I'd save the original box and parts.)
~kp
Kent Pearson
~kp
Kent Pearson
question. The TSL absolutely *destroys* the SL for versatility and
*usablity* in the club situations I play. Murders it. You might as well be
trying to compare a bare-bones antique bass amp to a modern guitar amp. Any
comparisons are just plain silly, Doug. My idea is to incorporate the two
as a single amplification system. If I had to pick just one, it would be
the TSL, all day long, every day. Let's avoid the amp shootout pissing
contest, please. It leads to nowhere but an endless, unresolved argument,
like politics or religion. I'm not into it.
~kp
TD Madden
"Kent Pearson
I thought I read some complaints about plexi-palace here some time back...could
be wrong though.
TD Madden
I'm curious, if the TSL does everything you want in such an overwhelming manner,
why even HAVE a SL?
No offense intended, just curious.
Regards.
"Kent Pearson
PMG
<bluesguit1@aol<remove>.com> wrote:
>Good points, Pete. I have to agree with you.
>Ah, the never ending headaches. I just wonder if it's worth it.
>
>~kp
Thanks.
I don't know if it's worth it. Those are all attitudes I developed
over the last couple years, so it was just sort of handy to apply them
to your situation.
I hope you'll excuse my cynicism about the comparisons. It was more
or less a knee jerk reaction. I'd love to have had the opportunity to
have bought that amp myself, *and* the cash to make it happen. So I'm
really sort of envious of your buy.
Pete
JTM50
are they) and what is in there?
Then the bias should be checked.
Leaky caps, scratchy pots.
Check for mods that may have been done.
Lloyd
in article pgws8.12351$vT6....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com, Kent Pearson
.com> at bluesguit1@aol<remove wrote on 4/8/02 11:51 PM:
>
> On 9-Apr-2002, JTM50 <lgi...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>> Kent before you do any serious comparisons you should have it check out by
>> a
>> tech.
>
> I hear what you're saying. What's not surprising, though, is that this amp
> reminds me of the last three early vintage Super Leads I owned. I can only
> describe it as a loud, harsh, unmusical, aggressive sonic assault.
>
> What will the tech look for? A have the schematic and tube voltage chart
> for a '72, are these the same?
>
> Regarding comparisons, again, I plan to try to incorporate the best of the
> new with the best of the old and see what I come up with. I already know
> that the SL *by itself* simply *cannot* cut the mustard for what I
> personally need an amp to do in a club situation. There is absolutely no
> doubt in my mind about that. Sonic "road-rash" ain't fun for anyone. But I
> am allowing for some interesting possibilities combining the two. Mind you,
> I'm talking about using the SL as a power amp and the TSL as the preamp.
> Unconventional, of course. Who would expect anything else from me?
>
> Finally, your advice about having it gone over by a tech is recieved as good
> advice. Again though, I ask, what will he be looking for?
>
> ~kp
>
PMG
<bluesguit1@aol<remove>.com> wrote:
[snip...
>Meanwhile, on the side, I'm thinking about cosmetic restoration. Any
>thoughts? My idea was to see if I could buy a new empty Marshall reissue
>box, and put it in that. As I said, a reissue logo has different pin
>placement. Or I suppose I could have the original box renovated by someone
>like Plexi-Palace. Also, wondering about replacing the front panel and
>knobs. Will the new panels retro-fit a 1969? (Remember, it's got the round
>pilot light.) Another thing . . the new Marshalls have the push-on knobs.
>Can one get the original type with the set screws? Comments from the group?
>(I'd save the original box and parts.)
>
>~kp
I'd love to see some pictures of the amp.
I think I'd actually leave the logo off and hope to find an original
somewhere eventually. I think Plexi-Palace charges premium rates for
their services. And they probably are worth it because they seem to
have an eye for detail, but if you're concerned about the maintenance
costs being added to the purchase price, then spending the money on
getting the amp functioning up to snuff would probably be a better
investment.
If it's cabinet cosmetics that are within your abilities, you could
consider handling them on your own while the chassis is shipped out to
someone else to have that part of the job handled. That is if you
decide that that's how you'll handle the working end of the amp.
Pete
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, JTM50 <lgi...@telus.net> wrote:
> The first thing that comes to mind is the condition of the tubes (how
> worn
> are they) and what is in there?
The two inside power tubes say Mesa Engineering on them, and look to be
brand new. The two outter tubes are Sovtek, and appear a little older due
to the fading lettering. They are, of course, marked EL34 / 6CA7
Of the three preamp tubes, the two outside ones are marked Groove Tubes
7025GT. They appear brand new with the bright orange lettering. The middle
tube is another Sovtek, marked 7025 / 12AX7WB
> Then the bias should be checked.
I think the guy said that was done when he had it retubed.
> Leaky caps,
No abnormal hum noticed.
> scratchy pots.
Only the Presence control. I've read that after '69, they made a change to
correct that - something about some DC voltage being present?
> Check for mods that may have been done
Nothing obvious to me, although I'm hardly an expert when it comes to the
innards. I can, however, usually recognize any work that's not up to
factory standard.
~kp
Mike C.
marshall to be nothing short of heresy.
Didn't you see the thread between them about reverb? ;)
"mark " <mws...@aol.comp> wrote in message
news:20020409141729...@mb-cj.aol.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> >Ah, the never ending headaches.
>
> Maybe DR can stick a reverb in that beast for you. Reverb, master volume,
> you're all set.
>
> BTW I have no doubt you're looking to get an honest evaluation. The
Marshall
> True Believers have nothing to fear. Or do they?
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, TD Madden <tma...@erols.com> wrote:
> I'm curious, if the TSL does everything you want in such an overwhelming
> manner,
> why even HAVE a SL?
>
> No offense intended, just curious.
That's a very good question, one which I'm happy to answer. My feeling is
that there *is* a certain quality to the sound of the old Marshalls that's
missing from the TSL, even though the TSL is far more versatile and has
plenty of good sounds of it's own that a Super Lead doesn't have. I can
certainly do better than just "get by" on the TSL alone, something I
wouldn't dream of trying with just a Super Lead. I left that behind me,
years ago. My plan is to marry the sound of a vintage Super Lead with the
options and sounds of the TSL, the gain stages, effects loops and reverb,
etc, and have a REAL "Super Lead" amp that's better than either one of them
alone. As you might have guessed, I'm not a minimalist when it comes to
sound. I like options, and plenty of them.
~kp
RoccaforteAmps
(probably
>too much, given the beat-up
>condition) >>
Are you worried about money,
or great tone?
<< Or I suppose I could have the original box renovated >by someone
>like Plexi-Palace. >>
We do it all,
Kent Pearson
supposed to be the ceramic ones? Three of these are the brown jobbers, and
one is black (not from fire ;-)) No "tube bonnets", either. For that
matter, no retainers of any sort.
~kp
TD Madden
"Kent Pearson
Kent,
Actually I'm right there with you on wanting a SL.....I have a few old Gibson
amps, and a couple Fenders as well....but when I had a chance recently to snag
a '73 for cheap, I was tempted....unfortunately, when I returned the "cheap"
had become NOT cheap.......
There is just SOMETHING about a SL that everyone must sample.
Regards.
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, mws...@aol.comp (mark ) wrote:
> Maybe DR can stick a reverb in that beast for you. Reverb, master volume,
> you're all set.
That WOULD be an improvement. Of course, Marshall figured that out years
ago.
> BTW I have no doubt you're looking to get an honest evaluation. The
> Marshall
> True Believers have nothing to fear. Or do they?
<Smacking my head with a board, as in Monty Python's Holy Grail>
I am not worthy . . . <smack!> I am not worthy . . . <smack!> I am not
worthy . . . <smack!>
~kp
Toonz
> The two inside power tubes say Mesa Engineering on them, and look to be
> brand new. The two outter tubes are Sovtek, and appear a little older due
> to the fading lettering. They are, of course, marked EL34 / 6CA7
BUZZZZZ...Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Go see Lord Valve at once, for a premium
matched quad of EL34's, the best you can afford.
> Of the three preamp tubes, the two outside ones are marked Groove Tubes
> 7025GT.
BUZZZZZ... That amp *needs* ECC83's, the british equivalent to 12AX7A...the GT 7025 tubes,
at least from my comparisons, are waaaay too harsh and treble-oriented for my liking in a
Marshall preamp section, especially the #1 position...Speaking of which- if you can swing
it, a NOS Mullard ECC83 will give you mojo-out-the-you-know in the #1 position...Not
really necessary to load the amp full of them, but you'll get the warm fuzzies if you
stick one in the first socket...
The newest batch of GT 12AX7's are re-marked Sovteks, and out of the dozen or so I
tested a couple of weeks ago, only *one* had decently close matching halves...I don't like
'em one bit...LV will be able to recommend better options- I'd be interested in his
thoughts myself, as I have a need for a couple dozen new 12AX7A's...
They appear brand new with the bright orange lettering.(GT tubes)
I have some with 12-15 years of use on them that look just like that...
> > Then the bias should be checked.
>
> I think the guy said that was done when he had it retubed.
No one in their right mind would re-tube an amp, and put a mish-mash of output tubes in
it...If I were you, I'd invest in a complete set of the best tubes you can afford from LV,
and have the bias adjusted for the new output tubes upon installation by a pro. Perhaps a
good going-over including socket inspection and re-tensioning would be a good idea...It
would be a wise investment of a few bucks to bring an old dinosaur roaring back to life...
> > Leaky caps,
>
> No abnormal hum noticed.
That's a plus...You said that one cap can was lighter blue than the rest, right? Probably
an LCR cap, and the others are most likely stock units, which you should keep an eye on,
to say the least...If one went bad, chances are good that the others are drying up
too...Most *reasonable* folk will go for a complete cap job if one dies and the rest are
more than 10-15 years old...
> > scratchy pots.
>
> Only the Presence control. I've read that after '69, they made a change to
> correct that - something about some DC voltage being present?
Still deserves a shot of good contact cleaner. I have an older 100W plexi head, makes the
barest hint of a noise when you twiddle the presence knob at full bore, which is the norm
for that circuit...If you've got more scratch than that after a good cleaning, you should
invest in a new pot there, of *high* quality...
> > Check for mods that may have been done
>
> Nothing obvious to me, although I'm hardly an expert when it comes to the
> innards. I can, however, usually recognize any work that's not up to
> factory standard.
Quality control for those amps put that "red dye" stuff on all of the turrets and solder
joints during inspection, as well as any and all screws/clamps that needed to be
tightened- of course, a good "vintage faker" will do that too, but at least it's an
indication in the right direction...
Tim
Kent Pearson
I'd get more sag, right? A little more "give" when winding out some
overdriven lead notes? Is this an easy switchover?
~kp
John Stax
> I'd get more sag, right? A little more "give" when winding out some
> overdriven lead notes? Is this an easy switchover?
No.. you need a 5V tap on the PT... And it's a 100W head, so you might need
2 tube rectifiers... Talk to Doug, Rich or some other good Marshall tech on
this newsgroup.
wb
I think your confusing MP-HG with Saturday Night Live ...
After loosing his arms and legs :
" Come back here you coward ... I'll bite you to death ... "
Did MP-HG ever have "I'm not worthy" ?
///
Andy van Tol
You can get that effect with a resistor between the power supply
and the output stage. I've used 100 ohm (10w, IIRC) for my BF
Bandmaster. I made my resistor switchable (using the old polarity
switch).
Maybe someone else could advise if there is another factor to
consider w/Marshal SL.
Andy
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "wb" <NOSPAM_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Did MP-HG ever have "I'm not worthy" ?
No, but they had the monks walking single file, smacking themselves in the
head as they chanted.
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "Mike C." <mcos...@gte.net> wrote:
> From what I have seen, Doug considers putting in an effects loop/reverb in
> a
> marshall to be nothing short of heresy.
To each thier own, I always say. Who am I to argue with one's personal
preference? Someone elses taste in amps doesn't put food on my table. My
amp, and what I'm able to do with it, does.
> Didn't you see the thread between them about reverb? ;)
Yep, sure did. I started it. As it turned out, 78% of the people polled
stated they'd rather buy an amp with reverb over one without it. Hardly a
surprise.
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, mws...@aol.comp (mark ) wrote:
> You're getting flack because you compare your practical, hands-on
> experience
> with the fantasies of true believers. Quite like a religious debate. Some
> dream
> of the mountain, you have been to the mountain. It was too loud.
Amen. So let it be written, so let it be said. The mountain *was* too
damned loud.
But I've figured out how to level it and tame the beast. (See the
"Progress" thread.)
wb
Is it before or after they fling the cows ? I don't remember
that part.
Kent <smack> SL <smack> TSL<smack> ....
What are all these frick'ng knobs's <smack> ... for ?
;-) john.
...
"Kent Pearson .com>" <bluesguit1@aol<remove> wrote in message
news:J7Js8.4683$GM....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, mws...@aol.comp (mark ) wrote:
> >the power tube sockets are not original ... No "tube bonnets", either.
>
> British contraceptives?
Lord only knows what they made those things for. The look like mantles on a
Coleman lantern.
JTM50
Ill second all of this:
Lloyd
in article VzHs8.36953$hq2.10...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com, Toonz at
timmy...@hotmail.com wrote on 4/9/02 12:48 PM:
drwow
.... from my personal stash of MP wav files .............
homepage.mac.com/the_original/.Public/monks.wav
dw
drwow
drwow wrote:
> Boys,
>
> .... from my personal stash of MP wav files .............
>
> homepage.mac.com/the_original/.Public/monks.wav
>
> dw
sorry -
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "wb" <NOSPAM_b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is it before or after they fling the cows ?
I can't remember.
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, "Kent Pearson" <bluesguit1@aol<remove>.com> wrote:
> > >the power tube sockets are not original ... No "tube bonnets", either.
> >
> > British contraceptives?
>
> Lord only knows what they made those things for. They look like mantles
> on
> a
> Coleman lantern.
greg z
>> Lord only knows what they made those things for. They look like mantles
>> on
>> a
>> Coleman lantern.
>
------------------------
Shielding so the black choppers can't monitor the amps.
z
Greg Z
to thine own sound be true
Kent Pearson
On 9-Apr-2002, drwow <dr...@mac.com> wrote:
> Boys,
>
> .... from my personal stash of MP wav files .............
>
> homepage.mac.com/the_original/.Public/monks.wav
yep, that's the one! Thanks, Doc!
John S. Shinal
Dual tube rectfiers is right. Ken Bran did this on the
prototype Super Leads, they ditched it immediately and went to solid
state.
I think that some of the hardness that Kent has described
sounds like it might be biased a little cold (if he already explained
that, I missed it). I can't ID tubes by their visible guts, so who
knows what the GT EL34s are, and I'm not sure what the "tone"
reputation is for the Sovteks. That could be worth looking into.
I'd be tempted to pull two power tubes and run it at 50w,
since it's clearly monstrously loud.
Kent Pearson
> 12AX7A..
Ok, cool. Actually, I have a couple of brand new JJ Tesla ECC83s that I got
from LV a while back as spares. I'll throw them in. BTW, which one is the
#1 position?
> the GT 7025 tubes, at least from my comparisons, are waaaay too harsh and
> treble-oriented
> for my liking in a Marshall preamp section, especially the #1 position..
What amp would these GT 7025 tubes be well suited for? Are they worth
keeping?
> if you can swing it, a NOS Mullard ECC83 will give you
> mojo-out-the-you-know in the #1
> position...
If I can swing it? Why, how much do these things go for??
> Not really necessary to load the amp full of them, but you'll get the warm
> fuzzies if you stick one in the first socket...
Ok, again, which one is the #1 slot??
I'm also gonna pull two power tubes. Since I have two that are marked as
matched Mesas, and two that are marked Sovtek, which would you guys
recommend? Think the volume difference will be considerable? I've never
tried it, but I've heard that it's not that big a difference. I suppose any
volume reduction would be a step in the right direction.
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 10-Apr-2002, jshinal_REMO...@mindspring.com (John S. Shinal)
wrote:
> I'd be tempted to pull two power tubes and run it at 50w,
> since it's clearly monstrously loud.
Thanks, I'm gonna definitely try that. This is DEFINITELY one of the
loudest amps I've ever heard. Right up there with my old Hiwatt. I can't
imagine anyone using that kind of power and still being able to hear.
~KP
John Stax
got
> from LV a while back as spares. I'll throw them in. BTW, which one is
the
> #1 position?
The one closest to the inputs... Most left if you look at it from the back..
> What amp would these GT 7025 tubes be well suited for? Are they worth
> keeping?
Fenders....
> I'm also gonna pull two power tubes. Since I have two that are marked as
> matched Mesas, and two that are marked Sovtek, which would you guys
> recommend? Think the volume difference will be considerable? I've never
> tried it, but I've heard that it's not that big a difference. I suppose
any
> volume reduction would be a step in the right direction.
Remember when you pull 2 powertubes to switch the impedance selector to half
your actual load (8 Ohms with a 16 Ohm cabinet).
I don't think you hear much difference (volume-wise), but pulling 2 tubes
causes the bias-current to increase little that might add a little 'oomph'
to your amp.
Did you try jumpering the channels yet? Plug your guitar in the top right
input, jumper the bottor right input to the top left input. Dail in your
volume with channel 2 (the right one) and add a little 'life' with the
channel 2 volume.
Hope you have more luck with the propper pre-amp tubes. Try experimenting
with an overdrive and/or fuzz if you have one.
!! Rant warning !!
You know these amps weren't designed to break-up at low volume levels,
distortion was considered a bad thing. Look at the old adds in Doyle's
book.. When people wanted more distortion they tweaked (changed some
capacitors and/or resisitors) or modded the amps (adding a master-volume
and/or gainstage). Later these mods came standard on the amps and they
evolved into the amps currently produced. Unfortunately to make more money
out of these amps they used cheaper components and used more complex designs
to make the amp more versatile.
My rule of thumb is: the more components in the signal path, the more TONE
you loose. The old Marshalls have a good simple circuit, good parts. You get
a much more pure/complex tone, the amps reacts better to your playing (more
direct and touch-sensitive). But in order to get the best possible tone you
need to:
1) Service it. Replace drifted resistor values, DC leaking coupling-caps
(which can drasticly alter the bias of the next gain stage and have a bad
effect on tone) and replace tubes if needed.
2) tweak it to YOUR taste and playing situation. You know what you want,
make this clear to the amp tech you're working with. This does not mean
hacking the complete amp, changing a couple of resistors and caps may be
all.
Kent, I know you are one hell of a guitar-player (and singer too!) and you
need a no-frills amp (since you only use the 2nd channel of your TSL). I
know you love the tone of your TSL, you found that tone because of the
versatility of this amp so bare with me:
The TSL are very versatile, but you don't need all that: you already found
that sweet spot! Why compromise tone on stuff you don't need in the first
place? You had some bad experiences with SL's and I can understand your
sceptisism about them. Maybe you didnt have a properly set up one, or didn't
know any good amp-techs. We all here want you to have the best possible
tone. That old Marshall has the potential to give it to you!
I think it's importent to know a good amp tech who understands what you want
out of your amp. I hope there's one not too far away from you. Let him
service/tweak the amp and you won't be looking back. That's what I did when
I replaced my blue 30th anniversary Marshall with my Super Lead. You can
even bring your TSL so he has a reference point for the tone you're looking
for. You've stated in other posts that you run your treble control on 0.
Explain to him what you don't like about the tone if you turn up the treble.
Actually I have a lot more to say, but I think I stop now! I hope you get my
points :)
!! End of Rant !!
Toonz
> Ok, cool. Actually, I have a couple of brand new JJ Tesla ECC83s that I got
> from LV a while back as spares. I'll throw them in. BTW, which one is the
> #1 position?
Best bang for your buck with those tubes, imo...The #1 preamp tube is the one *furthest*
from your EL34's...Looking at the back of the amp, from left to right, it's:
#1 pre, #2 pre, phase inverter...
> What amp would these GT 7025 tubes be well suited for? Are they worth
> keeping?
They are specified in a few places in Fender amps, and you can use them in the phase
inverter position of any amp that uses a 12AX7A for a PI tube...
> > if you can swing it, a NOS Mullard ECC83 will give you
> > mojo-out-the-you-know in the #1
> > position...
> If I can swing it? Why, how much do these things go for??
Depends where you look- I've picked up boxed, brand spankin' Mullards for anywhere from 10
to 25 bucks each, but those days seem to be gone forever...Think in the 40-60 dollar
range, possibly more, especially if they are well-tested, hot outputs, and closely matched
halves...
> I'm also gonna pull two power tubes.
I really, *really* don't think it's going to make much of a difference...I have a 50W head
here- you may have followed the thread of it eating an output tube a week...At approx. 2
out of 10, it's obnoxiously loud...Starts to sound really good at about 5, but only in a
large room or outdoors...Sounds like tone heaven at 7 on up, but after playing in front of
it for a few years, I wonder if I can still make babies;-)...
If you decide to pull two output tubes, you should really re-bias the amp, and run
your impedance selector at *half* of your specified cabinet load...Speaking of the
impedance selector- make damn sure that the pins and socket are sparkling clean and a
tight fit...
You can't just pull any two output tubes you want- when I do it with the Fender TR, I
pull the outer two tubes, as I have looked inside and actually *seen* where the output
tranny primary leads are soldered to- I strongly advise that you pull the chassis out of
the amp briefly, to see where the twisted pair(one red, one white) of wires that lead to
the primary of the OT go- you should leave tubes in the sockets that these wires run
directly to...
I hate to bring this up, as LV might develop an ulcer, but GT offers tubes in a rating
system- the lower the number, the sooner the power tubes saturate...I actually invested in
a quad of 9's and a quad of 2's, just to see what the difference was, and believe me, it
can make a *big* difference in how much you have to crank your amp before you get that
nice tube distortion...The 2's broke up at a *much* lower volume than your average tube,
and the 9's hardly broke up at all, until damn near full volume...GT isn't what they used
to be- their newer tubes don't seem to last as long as the old EL34B's did, but it is an
option...Perhaps LV can rate his tubes like this? I would trust his work over GT...
Since I have two that are marked as
> matched Mesas, and two that are marked Sovtek, which would you guys
> recommend?
If you just *have* to try pulling two, check the primary leads like I said above, and then
try *both* sets, one set at a time, rebiasing when you switch, and see which ones sound
better to you...I still find it *very* hard to believe that someone would put two vastly
different types of tubes in a 100W push-pull amp, and actually consider it a re-tube...
As an aside- I wouldn't bother cutting out the treble boost cap on input #1- it won't
do very much, and once you're into the volume a bit, the effect is null anyway...If you
can't get a tone you like by jumpering the inputs, one of the *best* and easily undone
tweaks you can do, is to change out the resistor/capacitor for the #2 channel- The stock
component is an 820 ohm resistor bypassed by either a 250 or 320 uF cap- that combination
makes for a really *dull* input- you can just pop out the current resistor/cap combo, and
set it aside for future return if you wish, and install something different to give you
more of what you're looking for...If you're uncomfortable with working in there, I would
suggest enlisting the help of a knowledgable tech- it would only take a couple of minutes
to swap in a different voice while he was going over the rest of the amp...Then, you'll
have your classic, overly bright, brittle channel 1, and a nice #2, tailored to suit your
taste...
TimM
Kent Pearson
On 10-Apr-2002, "John Stax" <as...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Remember when you pull 2 powertubes to switch the impedance selector to
> half
> your actual load (8 Ohms with a 16 Ohm cabinet).
Oh, shit . . . I didn't do that. Man, I can barely read the numbers
anymore, they're so worn off. And the Voltage selector switch is even
worse. Looks like it's set to "2" something . . wtf!?!?
> I don't think you hear much difference (volume-wise), but pulling 2 tubes
> causes the bias-current to increase little that might add a little 'oomph'
> to your amp.
> Did you try jumpering the channels yet? Plug your guitar in the top right
> input, jumper the bottor right input to the top left input. Dail in your
> volume with channel 2 (the right one) and add a little 'life' with the
> channel 2 volume.
Yeah, I didn't like it. That Channel 1 is poison. I get plenty of "life"
with the treble and presence control. Also, there's some cross-talk/ bleed
through from channel 1 to 2 id I'm plugged into 2 and turn up 1.
> Hope you have more luck with the propper pre-amp tubes. Try experimenting
> with an overdrive and/or fuzz if you have one.
>
See my other post about using the small amp in place of a pedal.
> !! Rant warning !!
>
> You know these amps weren't designed to break-up at low volume levels,
> distortion was considered a bad thing.
Right. Hense the need for distortion pedals or alternate methods.
> Look at the old adds in Doyle's
> book.. When people wanted more distortion they tweaked (changed some
> capacitors and/or resisitors) or modded the amps (adding a master-volume
> and/or gainstage). Later these mods came standard on the amps and they
> evolved into the amps currently produced. Unfortunately to make more money
> out of these amps they used cheaper components and used more complex
> designs
> to make the amp more versatile.
>
I'm leaving the amp as it is, to get clean sound. The small amp in front
will get my distortion. It sounds *great* that way. (Again, see my
response to Scott)
> My rule of thumb is: the more components in the signal path, the more TONE
> you loose. The old Marshalls have a good simple circuit, good parts. You
> get
> a much more pure/complex tone, the amps reacts better to your playing
> (more
> direct and touch-sensitive). But in order to get the best possible tone
> you
> need to:
> 1) Service it. Replace drifted resistor values, DC leaking coupling-caps
> (which can drasticly alter the bias of the next gain stage and have a bad
> effect on tone) and replace tubes if needed.
> 2) tweak it to YOUR taste and playing situation. You know what you want,
> make this clear to the amp tech you're working with. This does not mean
> hacking the complete amp, changing a couple of resistors and caps may be
> all.
This all makes good sense. I do know that I really "don't" want to mod the
amp into something it wasn't designed to be. If that were the case, I'd
just get something else of have one built. If I ever sell this amp, the
next owner will be happy to know he has the original un-modded circuit.
> Kent, I know you are one hell of a guitar-player (and singer too!)
Well, thank you John!
> and you
> need a no-frills amp (since you only use the 2nd channel of your TSL). I
> know you love the tone of your TSL, you found that tone because of the
> versatility of this amp so bare with me:
> The TSL are very versatile, but you don't need all that: you already found
> that sweet spot! Why compromise tone on stuff you don't need in the first
> place?
You're making good sense, I'm right with you so far.
> You had some bad experiences with SL's and I can understand your
> sceptisism about them. Maybe you didnt have a properly set up one, or
> didn't
> know any good amp-techs.
True. Or maybe *I* just didn't know enough back then to be able to figure
out how to remedy the problems. Look how many years it's been! I also
didn't have a lot of cash to play with back then either, basically living on
rice and beans. It was all I could do to buy the amps in the first place.
$750 or so was a lot of loot for a head back in '72.
> We all here want you to have the best possible
> tone. That old Marshall has the potential to give it to you!
I beive that, yes. (Again, see that other post please)
> I think it's importent to know a good amp tech who understands what you
> want out of your amp. I hope there's one not too far away from you. Let
> him
> service/tweak the amp and you won't be looking back. That's what I did
> when I replaced my blue 30th anniversary Marshall with my Super Lead.
Really?? That's supposed to be a hell of a good amp, isn't it?
> You can
> even bring your TSL so he has a reference point for the tone you're
> looking
> for. You've stated in other posts that you run your treble control on 0.
> Explain to him what you don't like about the tone if you turn up the
> treble.
Yeah, good point.
> Actually I have a lot more to say, but I think I stop now! I hope you get
> my
> points :)
All good points - especially the part where you complimented my playing! ;-)
Just kidding, thanks for the input!
~kp
Kent Pearson
On 10-Apr-2002, "Toonz" <timmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Best bang for your buck with those tubes, imo...The #1 preamp tube is the
> one *furthest*
> from your EL34's...Looking at the back of the amp, from left to right,
> it's:
> #1 pre, #2 pre, phase inverter...
So, number #3 could be be just about *any* working 12AX7, right?
> > What amp would these GT 7025 tubes be well suited for? Are they worth
> > keeping?
>
> They are specified in a few places in Fender amps, and you can use them in
> the phase
> inverter position of any amp that uses a 12AX7A for a PI tube...
Ok, I see where one GT's getting used!
> > I'm also gonna pull two power tubes.
>
> I really, *really* don't think it's going to make much of a difference...
I did it. Yeah, it does seem to make a significant difference.
> You can't just pull any two output tubes you want- when I do it with
> the Fender TR, I
> pull the outer two tubes, as I have looked inside and actually *seen*
> where the output
> tranny primary leads are soldered to- I strongly advise that you pull the
> chassis out of
> the amp briefly, to see where the twisted pair(one red, one white) of
> wires that lead to
> the primary of the OT go- you should leave tubes in the sockets that these
> wires run
> directly to...
Hmm.. I pulled the two outter ones, because I have heard that you can pull
either the inner or the outter on these amps. So far, nothing's smoking. I
*will* have a look inside though before I run it this way again.
> I hate to bring this up, as LV might develop an ulcer, but GT offers
> tubes in a rating
> system- the lower the number, the sooner the power tubes saturate...I
> actually invested in
> a quad of 9's and a quad of 2's, just to see what the difference was, and
> believe me, it
> can make a *big* difference in how much you have to crank your amp before
> you get that
> nice tube distortion...The 2's broke up at a *much* lower volume than your
> average tube,
> and the 9's hardly broke up at all, until damn near full volume...GT isn't
> what they used
> to be- their newer tubes don't seem to last as long as the old EL34B's
> did, but it is an
> option...Perhaps LV can rate his tubes like this? I would trust his work
> over GT...
What sayeth the Lord??
> Since I have two that are marked as
> > matched Mesas, and two that are marked Sovtek, which would you guys
> > recommend?
> As an aside- I wouldn't bother cutting out the treble boost cap on
> input #1- it won't
> do very much, and once you're into the volume a bit, the effect is null
> anyway...If you
> can't get a tone you like by jumpering the inputs,
I have no need at this time to jump them. Channel 2 is as bright as I want
it to be. Channel 1 is simply unusable. The only amp I ever heard that had
that kind of dangerous treble was my old Hiwatt. I'm into building a
following, not killing them off! ;-)
> one of the *best* and
> easily undone
> tweaks you can do, is to change out the resistor/capacitor for the #2
> channel-
> The stock
> component is an 820 ohm resistor bypassed by either a 250 or 320 uF cap-
> that combination
> makes for a really *dull* input- you can just pop out the current
> resistor/cap combo, and
> set it aside for future return if you wish, and install something
> different to give you
> more of what you're looking for...
Interesting. Let me gnaw on that awhile.
> If you're uncomfortable with working in
> there, I would
> suggest enlisting the help of a knowledgable tech- it would only take a
> couple of minutes
> to swap in a different voice while he was going over the rest of the
> amp...Then, you'll
> have your classic, overly bright, brittle channel 1, and a nice #2,
> tailored to suit your
> taste...
> TimM
Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated!
~kp
Stefan Markowitz
news:Jy1t8.23835$GM....@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com:
>On 10-Apr-2002, "John Stax" <as...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Hope you have more luck with the propper pre-amp tubes. Try
>> experimenting with an overdrive and/or fuzz if you have one.
>>
>
> See my other post about using the small amp in place of a pedal.
The _small_ amp? ;-)
I see a pitfall in your plan, have you already tried it?
I think that the eq might be wrong (you want to connect the
fx send of the TSL to the input of the SL?!).
Too bad that the SL doesn´t have a slave input (right before
the PI).
>> I think it's importent to know a good amp tech who understands what
>> you want out of your amp. I hope there's one not too far away from
>> you. Let him
>> service/tweak the amp and you won't be looking back. That's what I
>> did when I replaced my blue 30th anniversary Marshall with my Super
>> Lead.
>
> Really?? That's supposed to be a hell of a good amp, isn't it?
Wanna buy mine? ;-)
It is too f*ckin´ loud (I don´t like preamp-only distortion), though
OTOH I played a 30th Anniversary combo which sounded very good.
I guess that I´m more happy with combos because you can crank them
much more (in comparison to a half stack - because of less speaker
efficiency).
BTW, there´s a soundclip of my 6100 through a 2x12 V30 open back cab
(played at band rehearsal volume, loud but far from being cranked):
http://people.freenet.de/ElGuapo
Stefan
Kent Pearson
On 10-Apr-2002, Stefan Markowitz <stef651...@gmx.de> wrote:
> The _small_ amp? ;-)
> I see a pitfall in your plan, have you already tried it?
> I think that the eq might be wrong (you want to connect the
> fx send of the TSL to the input of the SL?!).
> Too bad that the SL doesn´t have a slave input (right before
> the PI).
I've tried the small amp (Marshall Park Series G15RCD) , and the TSL line
out, both, into the SL. I had no thoughts of the small amp, only the TSL.
But since the TSL was in my van, and the small amp was close at hand, I
tried it first (call me "lazy"). The sound of this combination was friggin'
incredible! (Some of you know how much I love that little practice amp, but
by itself it's too small and has no real meat to it). I thought, "Wow!!!
The TSL is gonna be good through this!". Wrong. Very wrong. The TSL and the
SL sound terrible together, not better, but much worse than either amp
alone. The thing is, I'm not concerned in the least because the MG15RCD
into the SL is a *great* sound.
Look at it like this; You know how some guys use a solid state floor pedal
into the SL to get the tone? Think of this small solid state amp as the
floor pedal. This "floor pedal" has Bass, Treble and sweepable Mid EQ, as
well as Reverb, two stages of Gain control and a Master. It's the absolute
*bomb*! I really don't want to say too much about it, it *should* be kept a
trade secret! I think I'll drop the subject right now as a matter of fact.
In fact, it sounds fucking HORRIBLE. Don't try it. ;-)
~kp
Chris Mohrbacher
"Toonz" <timmy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:C60t8.103297$GF1.11...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
<snipsnip>
> I hate to bring this up, as LV might develop an ulcer, but GT offers tubes in a rating
> system- the lower the number, the sooner the power tubes saturate...I actually invested in
> a quad of 9's and a quad of 2's, just to see what the difference was, and believe me, it
> can make a *big* difference in how much you have to crank your amp before you get that
> nice tube distortion...The 2's broke up at a *much* lower volume than your average tube,
> and the 9's hardly broke up at all, until damn near full volume...GT isn't what they used
> to be- their newer tubes don't seem to last as long as the old EL34B's did, but it is an
> option...Perhaps LV can rate his tubes like this? I would trust his work over GT...
I think LV can match tubes to GT "specs". Or is it Mesa's specs? I forget.
I also wonder if this approach would work for "Alan-747" in his quest for lower volume.
Waddya think, LV?
--- Chris
Toonz
> So, number #3 could be be just about *any* working 12AX7, right?
To a point-
It's good to have one with close matching halves- not so close as you would seek out
for a 5 grand tube stereo amplifier, but you don't want one half getting twice the signal
that the other half gets...
When I renew my output tubes, I always install a fresh PI tube- they get a good
workout in push-pull amps...As for the preamp tubes- unless they go microphonic or get
audibly weak on me, I let 'em ride...
> > > I'm also gonna pull two power tubes.
> >
> > I really, *really* don't think it's going to make much of a difference...
>
> I did it. Yeah, it does seem to make a significant difference.
It might have made a difference for reasons totally unrelated to lower power...If the quad
was severely mis-matched, which I bet it was- the amp might be performing better with just
the one brand of tube in there...I wouldn't pass judgement on it until a *new* set of
matched tubes, all the same brand, with the same internals, giving the same type of
performance is sitting in the sockets...
>
> Hmm.. I pulled the two outter ones, because I have heard that you can pull
> either the inner or the outter on these amps. So far, nothing's smoking. I
> *will* have a look inside though before I run it this way again.
You must have got it right, or you'd have noticed instantly upon sound audition...One half
of a push-pull sounds distinctly different;-)...
Generally speaking, the two primary leads of the OT go to the middle two sockets, and
then short leads go from there to the other two sockets, but it's always a good idea to
eyeball it...I *have* seen exceptions to this rule on occasion...
> I have no need at this time to jump them. Channel 2 is as bright as I want
> it to be. Channel 1 is simply unusable. The only amp I ever heard that had
> that kind of dangerous treble was my old Hiwatt. I'm into building a
> following, not killing them off! ;-)
My 50-watt head is a little *bright* on #1...I'm surprised that you find enough treble on
the second channel- I wonder what the cap value is in there? They are usually *terribly*
dull on #2...
Come to think of it- my 100W head is quite a bit brighter on the #2 channel than the
50W is...I'll have to have a closer look at that one...
TimM
Kent Pearson
On 10-Apr-2002, "Toonz" <timmy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It might have made a difference for reasons totally unrelated to lower
> power...If the quad
> was severely mis-matched, which I bet it was- the amp might be performing
> better with just
> the one brand of tube in there...I wouldn't pass judgement on it until a
> *new* set of
> matched tubes, all the same brand, with the same internals, giving the
> same type of
> performance is sitting in the sockets...
New preamp tubes, a matched quad of good power tubes AND new ceramic sockets
(as original) are in the mail ;-) The amp will then be biased by a
trusted local. We're gettin' there! ;-)
Thanks for the helpful input.
~kp
RoccaforteAmps
> It's good to have one with close matching halves- >>
The superleads driver
is self balancing,
doesnt require
a matched 12AX7.
Doug
CompUser
"Kent Pearson .com>" wrote ...
>
>
> I've tried the small amp (Marshall Park Series G15RCD) , and the TSL line
> out, both, into the SL
>
pedal
> into the SL to get the tone? Think of this small solid state amp as the
> floor pedal. This "floor pedal" has Bass, Treble and sweepable Mid EQ, as
> well as Reverb, two stages of Gain control and a Master. It's the
absolute
> *bomb*! I really don't want to say too much about it, it *should* be kept
a
> trade secret! I think I'll drop the subject right now as a matter of
fact.
> In fact, it sounds fucking HORRIBLE. Don't try it. ;-)
Heheheheh!!! Hey, I tried this a couple of years ago with my Marshall
VS-10...
the line out, into my Kalamazoo...whoo-hoo, that Kalamazoo was a wailing,
nasty Marshall machine!! The VS-10 is a bit different from your Park, and
the
MG series---it has the Marshall tone stack, does great distortion, and
horrible
clean.
Steve
RoccaforteAmps
CompUser
"RoccaforteAmps" > wrote ...
> Noisey ain't it?
As in, "SS-hiss" noisey? Not really,
the VS-10 will hiss out if you crank
either gain or volume up past the
last third of travel, or so. I didn't need
to go that far to overdrive the Kalamazoo,
not by far.
Now Kent got me thinking of revisiting that,
into my Studio 15...heheheheh.
Steve
Kent Pearson
On 11-Apr-2002, roccafo...@aol.com (RoccaforteAmps) wrote:
> Noisey ain't it?
Actually no Doug, honestly, it's not as bad as most stomp boxes I've heard.
No hiss, no hum. Rather quiet, considering all.
Toonz
news:20020411001316...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> The superleads driver
> is self balancing,
> doesnt require
> a matched 12AX7.
Ah- words of wisdom from someone who knows...Thanks very much, Doug- I just learned
something new which will save me a *ton* of time when I re-tube...I was always looking for
the closest match out of all the 12Ax7A's I bought to stick in the PI...
btw- I test my tubes with a TV-7 tester- most good quality 12AX7's test in the 45-65
range, with the occasional 70-80 popping up. I just ran across a single Phillips STR tube
that *pegs* the meter on both halves of the tube! It shows no signs of shorts, and
functions perfectly well in a circuit...Anyone ever run across one that output this hot?
Should I set it aside as an oddball with a potential problem, or stick it in an amp and
enjoy the hot output?
TimM
RoccaforteAmps
Yes,
a 12AU7 that was
branded 12AX7.
Test it as a 12AU7
and see what you get.
If the GM reading
seems right you
probably stumbled
across one of these.
Doug
RoccaforteAmps
>into my Studio 15...heheheheh.
>>
You guys are tourturing
these Marshalls.
STOP IT!!!!!
Stefan Markowitz
news:20020411001316...@mb-fo.aol.com:
> The superleads driver
> is self balancing,
No, it is not self balancing.
Stefan
Toonz
news:Xns91EDC015CDF76...@62.153.159.134...
Okay- now I'm gettin' a headache...Which one is it guys? Should I keep looking for close
halves on my PI tubes, or can I just pop and go...
TimM- dazed and confused...
Stefan Markowitz
news:6ojt8.116327$GF1.12...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com:
> Okay- now I'm gettin' a headache...Which one is it guys? Should I keep
> looking for close halves on my PI tubes, or can I just pop and go...
Just pop and go... this is not a HiFi amp. If you are concerned about it,
you could check out things with a dual trace scope.
Stefan
RoccaforteAmps
>>
Hummm.....
Long tail PI, hummmm........
As the tube wears
it balances its self.
Hummm.......
CompUser
"RoccaforteAmps" wrote ...
>
> You guys are tourturing
> these Marshalls.
> STOP IT!!!!!
Doug, would this be hurting `em...don't wanna
do that---or are you showing your hidden
cork-sniffing side?? =:-O
Steve
RoccaforteAmps
>do that---or are you showing your hidden
>cork-sniffing side?? =:-O
>>
=;)>
Ok, I admit it!
I cork sniff great tone!!!!!!!
"SSsSNNnnnniiiFffffffFffffT!" Ahh!
Can you hear it?
CompUser
"RoccaforteAmps wrote
> =;)>
> Ok, I admit it!
> I cork sniff great tone!!!!!!!
> "SSsSNNnnnniiiFffffffFffffT!" Ahh!
> Can you hear it?
Bwah-hahahahah!
noc10
> Somebody comming down
> with my fever?
> It was real nasty.
I've had it for a couple of weeks, still no voice. Nasty AND tenacious.
noc10
"wb" <NOSPAM_b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:92Is8.2047$fL6....@news.cpqcorp.net...
> Crazy - maybe ... but if your friends seem strange your Ok .
>
> I think your confusing MP-HG with Saturday Night Live ...
>
> After loosing his arms and legs :
> " Come back here you coward ... I'll bite you to death ... "
>
> Did MP-HG ever have "I'm not worthy" ?
>
I'm not worthy is Wayne's World IIRC.
> "> <Smacking my head with a board, as in Monty Python's Holy Grail>
> >
> > I am not worthy . . . <smack!> I am not worthy . . . <smack!> I am not
> > worthy . . . <smack!>
> >
> > ~kp
> >
>
>
>
PMG
wrote:
"Nasty and Tenacious", that was the name of that band I was in with 2
chick singers.
Pete
noc10
"PMG" <avo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:g9gdbusdjdhrl5fbg...@4ax.com...
Hubba-Hubba dude, sounds like my kind of ladies.
PMG
wrote:
Well, you know those stage acts. Offstage they were more like the
church lady. Hearing "Well isn't that special" in stereo'll make you
wish you were deaf already.
Pete
Jack
alt.guitar.amps, bluesguit1@aol says...
>
> On 9-Apr-2002, "Mike C." <mcos...@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > No, the JCM2000 has an output mute, which switches off the signal to the
> > output section. I know it works because i stuck the output cable in my
> > mouth
> > and didnt get a shock.
>
> I have to wonder about this, and I'll tell you why. I've been using loop
> #2's send to go to my tuner. When I pute the mute on, the tuner still gets
> the signal. o problem. But what worries me is that I can still very
> faintly hear amplified signal coming out of the speakers, although it's very
> very faint - almost inaudible, but it's there. For this reason, I'd be
> afraid to run it without a load of some sort.
Mutes in a lot of electronic stuff (tv's and such) don't totally cut-
off the signal. They pad the level down, something on the order of 20 to
30dB or so (maybe even more). RCA did this with their tv's.
--
de N2MPU Jack FN20
Modeling the NYC and NYNH&H in HO and CPRail and D&H in N
Proud NRA member
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Kent Pearson
On 12-Apr-2002, Jack <jack...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> Mutes in a lot of electronic stuff (tv's and such) don't totally cut-
> off the signal. They pad the level down, something on the order of 20 to
> 30dB or so (maybe even more). RCA did this with their tv's.
> --
The question is, is it safe to run the amp like that without a speaker load?
~kp
Jack
alt.guitar.amps, bluesguit1@aol says...
>
If that is what is indeed is happening, the power tubes are still
putting out signal. That being the case, I'd not run the amp without some
kind of load.
Kent Pearson
On 11-Apr-2002, "CompUser" <steve762us...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Heheheheh!!! Hey, I tried this a couple of years ago with my Marshall
> VS-10...
> the line out, into my Kalamazoo...whoo-hoo, that Kalamazoo was a wailing,
> nasty Marshall machine!! The VS-10 is a bit different from your Park, and
> the
> MG series---it has the Marshall tone stack, does great distortion, and
> horrible
> clean.
Consider that the large Marshall slave is being set for the warmest clean
sound sound it will deliver to begin with. When you crank the guitar, the
Park goes into that great distortion and it gets amplified further by the
"slave" amp. When you back off the guitar volume, the distortion backs off
with it, but you're still left with a big fat clean sound from the Marshall
who's character is more predominant than the sound of the Park. It's
basically the same as using a sophisticated stomp box that's left on instead
of switching it on and off. This is what a lot of guys used to do with Fuzz
Faces, but the quality of sound from the FF wasn't the same. I've got a
couple of those around, one's home-made, one's factory - they sound about
the same - and have no desire to use them. Just a little too cheap 'n'
nasty sounding for what I'm doing.
Now, keep in mind, that the line outs on these little amps were probably
meant to feed into a PA or mixing board to reproduce the sound without the
use of a mic. But by going into a guitar amp instead, totally different
results are achieved. One thing I've learned is that is doesn't sound good
with just any old amp combination. The small amp has to have a sound you
*really* like to begin with, not just *so-so". And the amp that it goes
into must also be a good amp. Even then, the results are likely to vary,
depending on your tastes. This combination happens to work very well. A
lucky coincidence maybe.
Now, shhhhh . . . no more about this.
~kp
Of course, you all *do* realise, that all of this "amp/sound preference"
thing this is directly related to what sound you're trying to achieve for
the particular style of music you're trying to convey. That's why what
works for some isn't always best for the next guy.
Kent Pearson
due to a malfunction.