Thanks,
Terry
1. The exterior (which you can mod, I did)
2. A bias pot is included (which you can mod, I intend to)
3. The asking price.
I've got a '91. I slapped six coats of tinted Zinser Bullseye shellac
on it. I retubed it with a matched pair of SED Winged C 6L6GC's and
all N.O.S. Mullard rectifier (GZ34) and pre-amped stages 2 and 3
ECC83's. Stage 1 is a GE cryovac'd 12AY7 (lower gain). I will always
keep this amp. Love it. mvm
"Fit E. Cal" <ya...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1180553950....@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Yes, it did. It's pretty much a match for the darker stripe in the
grill cloth. I like it -no phony bright tweed look, but tweed texture.
The amp positively sings when tubed
right. The investment is worth it. Oh, almost forgot! You'll want to
test your speakers to see that they "play forward". This merely
requires a flashlight battery. Look
up the whole how-to as provided by Gerald Weber. All you'll need to do
is reverse the leads on each of the four speakers. mvm
Ok...First of all, be aware that Gerald Weber is about 88% full of
shit. The only bigger moron in the mass-media tube world is Dan
Torres. Both of the above make Willie look like a Rhodes Scholar.
That said, let's address the facts--
Your ears have no idea whether your speakers are all "playing forward"
or "playing backward". The sound coming from your speakers originates
from an AC signal, and the phase at your ears will depend on where you
are standing at any given moment.
Now, it DOES matter that your speakers are not connected out of phase
with each other. That it, when you do the battery test, make sure
that all of them are either "playing forward" or "playing backward" at
the same time. You don't want any of the speakers out of phase with
the others. In other words, you want the hot lead connected to the
same terminal on all four speakers. The battery test will tell you
which terminal is which, just in case the voice coil is connected
differently on one of the speakers.
There are some speakers that have the frames grounded. In that case,
you definitely want that terminal connected to the chassis ground
lead.
All clear?
> All you'll need to do
> is reverse the leads on each of the four speakers. mvm
Um...no.
--E
Well Ether, you're clearly opiniated and that's your right. I battery-
tested the speakers in my Bassman, and in accordance with the advice
rendered by Weber, I wound up making the adjustment he recommends to
see that all four speakers move forward in accordance with the the +
and - terminals matching the batteries poles. Did it hurt anything?
No. Did it do any good? According to you, maybe not. I have enjoyed
Weber's books and articles in Vintage Guitar. I also enjoy Dave
Hunter's stuff as well as Aspen Pittmans. Are these guys perfect?
Probably not, but I don't work on my own two amps, let alone do it for
a living with the property of
other players. As a guitar hobbyist, I have merely enjoyed reading and
learning a little here and a little there, along the way. I'm always
highly suspect of anyone bad-mouthing another. Do Weber or Torres know
"Ether"? If they do, do they take it upon themselves to speak
negatively about you -let alone disparage you in an internet forum
(supposedly / ostensibly) about amps?
I've long made it a habit to narrow my eyes at people who come to me
with negative comments about others. As virtually everyone reading
this is aware via their own life experience, usually, those who come
to you and bad mouth others have no problem whatsoever
going to others and bad mouthing -you.
You may be a nice, professional, caring, thoughtful human being with
chops to spare in everything you touch...but where the character trait
I discuss in this post is concerned, ...-it can't have done you any
favors or bought you anything positive. People like that guy in Denver
may even surround themselves with ingratiating sycophants operating on
dullard crowd-fear impulses...but even THOSE poor cowards have no
respect for guys like him, deep down on an emotional level. The wise
or those who aspire to be give that activity the spur. Truth. mvm
There's a big difference between fact and opinion! My comments are
firmly grounded in the principles of physics.
> I battery-
> tested the speakers in my Bassman, and in accordance with the advice
> rendered by Weber, I wound up making the adjustment he recommends to
> see that all four speakers move forward in accordance with the the +
> and - terminals matching the batteries poles. Did it hurt anything?
> No.
True.
> Did it do any good? According to you, maybe not.
Definitely not--if you merely reversed the leads.
The only good reason to do the "battery test" is to see if any of the
speakers have their terminals reversed. THEN it can help you. If one
or two of four speakers are wired out of phase, the resulting sound
will suck.
> I have enjoyed Weber's books and articles in Vintage Guitar. I also enjoy
> Dave Hunter's stuff as well as Aspen Pittmans.
Cool! Sometimes they write entertaining stuff that also happens to be
true.
> Are these guys perfect? Probably not,
Uh...DEFINITELY not. It's fine to read and enjoy their articles, but
before you take what they say as gospel, look at their credentials
first. How many degrees in electrical engineering does Gerald Weber
have?
> but I don't work on my own two amps, let alone do it for
> a living with the property of
> other players. As a guitar hobbyist, I have merely enjoyed reading and
> learning a little here and a little there, along the way.
That's cool, too. But with that in mind, you should be careful about
advising others--who may be less knowledgeable--with "facts" taken
from questionable sources.
> I'm always highly suspect of anyone bad-mouthing another.
Oh, come on. Like Claudette doesn't deserve it. ;)
> Do Weber or Torres know "Ether"?
I don't hang with simpletons.
> If they do, do they take it upon themselves to speak
> negatively about you -let alone disparage you in an internet forum
> (supposedly / ostensibly) about amps?
I merely shot down Weber's BS about "reversing the leads" on your
speakers. On that one, though, I admit I am assuming that you
conveyed his advice verbatim. Regardless, I have seen other howlers
from Gerald Weber and Torresd firsthand, so I know they can't be
blindly trusted.
The wonderful thing about science is that what I said in my previous
message can be proven correct--repeatedly. The laws of Physics are
wonderfully consistent.
> I've long made it a habit to narrow my eyes at people who come to me
> with negative comments about others.
I dont--as long as the "others" deserve it. And I can tell from your
comments to the riffraff here that you agree.
> As virtually everyone reading
> this is aware via their own life experience, usually, those who come
> to you and bad mouth others have no problem whatsoever
> going to others and bad mouthing -you.
Marc, I have to admit that I don't talk about you.
> You may be a nice, professional, caring, thoughtful human being with
> chops to spare in everything you touch...
Fuck yeah!
> but where the character trait
> I discuss in this post is concerned, ...-it can't have done you any
> favors or bought you anything positive.
If my comments helped even one person make their amp sound better, it
was worth it.
> People like that guy in Denver
> may even surround themselves with ingratiating sycophants operating on
> dullard crowd-fear impulses...but even THOSE poor cowards have no
> respect for guys like him, deep down on an emotional level. The wise
> or those who aspire to be give that activity the spur.
You're confusing a bunch of idiots spewing "me-too" political
diatribes with someone shooting down misinformation. 'Tain't the same
thing.
> Truth. mvm
That's what I promulgate.
--E
Ether-
I'm not certain that being a BSEE or having a Masters (depending upon
when it was earned, given the digital revolution) would necessarily
make a guy a more effective diagnostician where tube amp repairs and
mods are concerned...fact is, he might find
himself SO frustrated and angry at his professional station in life
that the bitterness might actually screw both him and his customers
up...WAIT A MINUTE! I JUST DESCRIBED WHAT GOES ON ALL THE TIME AT
AGA!!...except- those guys are mostly
H.S. only grads w/ a votech edu. :-).
As to the speakers- Here's pretty much what Weber wrote on the '59
Bassman 5F6A "play forward" bit and here's what I did;
"...At that time, there was no established standard concerning marking
the speaker terminals plus and minus. Jensen chose to label them
exactly opposite of what has become today's standard. What is today's
standard? Hook a flashlight battery to a speaker and look to see if
the cone moves forward. If it does not, reverse the leads going to the
speaker terminals. The cone will now move forward. Now look at the
speaker terminals. The one going to the positive side of the battery
is positive, the one going to the negative side, negative. If you do
this with an original Jensen P10R, you will notice that it is marked
backwards.
Stay with me on this. The 4x10 inverts the signal. That means that the
part of the input signal that goes in positive will come out of the
speaker jack negative and the part of the input signal that goes in
negative will come out of the speaker jack positive. Since the
speakers are marked backwards, the signal is re-inverted to make the
amp play forward. (180 degrees plus 180 degrees equals 360 degrees;
now that wasn't so hard, was it?) Does this effect the sound? Forward
playing amps have more apparent low end. If you own a Bassman, I
suggest that you check the phase of all speakers using the battery
method previously described. Often a speaker will be reconed and will
be reinstalled backwards. If one speaker is moving out while the
others are moving in, the speakers are actually working against each
other. The amp will lack punch and projection, and low end will
suffer. Also, if own a 5F6A REISSUE, you will want to reverse the
speaker wires on each speaker so that the amp plays forward like an
original. I would check them with a battery just to make certain. When
you find the positive terminal by today's standards, it should go to
the sleeve of the plug and the negative terminal should go to the pin
in the middle of the plug..."
-G. Weber pg. 53-54 "A DESKTOP REFERENCE OF HIP VINTAGE GUITAR AMPS"
1994
I have say, Ether I checked this and sure enough, all four speakers
required a lead reversal like above, in order to match the battery + /
- "forward play" test. The amp rocks. Maybe you're right about the
fallacy of this test or the competence of Weber compared to William
the Witless. Hell, I don't know, I just play the guitar and love the
shit out of gear and tone tweaking. mvm
Ether-
My understanding is that *relative* polarity (i.e., phase reversal of one or
two relative to the others) matters and the *absolute* polarity doesn't.
Weber's battery test sets absolute polarity, so it will guarantee relative
polarity also. In a sense it's overkill, but it'll get you where you want
to be.
Then again, I'm just a Ph. D. physicist, what do I know about amps? ;-)
Shhhh! There are people typing at AGA who will be only TOO happy to
start typing "phony Ph.D. say's he's a physcicist, bwahahaha",
followed by various and sundry
"LOL's". :-) Marc.
Well it DOES matter if you use 2 amps together or record an amp using
both a Mic and a direct box. There's a standard in Pro Audio that a
positive signal produce outward motion at the speaker. I believe Weber
was talking about original Jensen speakers, I don't know about the
reissues, but old JBL's are backwards as well and there's a tech note on
the subject and what's what at:
http://www.jblpro.com/tech-library/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf
Rather than the battery test at the speaker(which is useful for checking
all are doing the same thing) I use an old 1.5 volt battery on the amp
input I use(Fender Reverb amps are opposite channel to channel). As far
as sounding different, that could be, but guitar pickups are
inconsistent as well. Luckily, we can only play 1 guitar at a time. :)
Cool. I play through two amps, mostly to take advantage of a few
effects in my tone that sound ideal w/it. mvm
You may have missed the point.
Just because you have degrees *doesn't* mean you're an expert.
Even back when I took EE101 in 1967 they did a lot more in the course with
transistors than tubes. Show a recent EE bachelor's degree (or beyond that)
a guitar amp and he'll throw up his hands. Sure, some elementary circuit
theory helps, but beyond that it comes down to experience IMO.
As for me, I've got experience rewiring guitars and making stomp boxes but
none directly with amps....SO...take what I say on the subject with a grain
of salt.
p.s....with regard to the degree, all they gotta do is google it, they'll
find it. That is, if they can handle a simple net search.
Yeah, you're right about that, if you're standing directly in front of the
amps and they're opposite, the two signals will be coming at you out of
phase. I guess from that perspective it's good to have a standard. Didn't
think of that problem when I posted. Thanks!
Actually Rich, the point is this- noone can take your accomplishments
or education away. The very act of attempting to do so defines
and diminishes them further.
AGA is much like touring a burned out inner city ghetto, prison, or
any holding pen for the mentally disabled. The shouts, looks, etc.
define the unfortunate, not those to whom they're intended to be
directed at.
Rudyard Kipling
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
It depends on the person, I guess. But it would definitely prevent
one from making the sort of statement about "forward playing speakers"
that Weber did.
> fact is, he might find
> himself SO frustrated and angry at his professional station in life
> that the bitterness might actually screw both him and his customers
> up...WAIT A MINUTE! I JUST DESCRIBED WHAT GOES ON ALL THE TIME AT
> AGA!!...except- those guys are mostly
> H.S. only grads w/ a votech edu. :-).
At best! Or whatever you could pick up in the lower echelons of the
Navy, betwen below-deck swabs.
> As to the speakers- Here's pretty much what Weber wrote on the '59
> Bassman 5F6A "play forward" bit and here's what I did;
>
> "...At that time, there was no established standard concerning marking
> the speaker terminals plus and minus. Jensen chose to label them
> exactly opposite of what has become today's standard. What is today's
> standard? Hook a flashlight battery to a speaker and look to see if
> the cone moves forward. If it does not, reverse the leads going to the
> speaker terminals. The cone will now move forward. Now look at the
> speaker terminals. The one going to the positive side of the battery
> is positive, the one going to the negative side, negative. If you do
> this with an original Jensen P10R, you will notice that it is marked
> backwards.
>
> Stay with me on this. The 4x10 inverts the signal.
Oh brother...
Like the speaker is getting a DC signal in normal operation. (Not.)
> That means that the
> part of the input signal that goes in positive will come out of the
> speaker jack negative and the part of the input signal that goes in
> negative will come out of the speaker jack positive. Since the
> speakers are marked backwards, the signal is re-inverted to make the
> amp play forward. (180 degrees plus 180 degrees equals 360 degrees;
> now that wasn't so hard, was it?)
Oh..my..fucking...GOD! This is even worse than I anticipated from
your description! It couldn't be any more asinine and ridiculous if
it had been written as satire. As that, it's genious!
> Does this effect the sound? Forward
> playing amps have more apparent low end.
BULLSHIT!
Marc--you might test this theory by trying your amp now, then
reversing all the leads and trying it again. (Hint--you will hear no
difference at all.)
Here's a mind-bender for you--
On your stock Super Reverb, the two channels--Normal and Vibrato--are
wired 180 degrees out of phase with other. So according to Weber, one
channel is playing "forward" and one is playing "backward". Yet if you
plug your guitar into one channel or the other, they both sound fine.
Why is that? It's the miracle of sound waves! Your ear has no idea if
the phase is "forward" or "backward". It merely registers the
frequency and amplitude of the sound wave.
Now, you WOULD have a problem if you used a splitter cable to feed the
same signal into both the Normal and Vibrato channels at the same
time. Some of the imput signal would cancel, and your guitar would
sound more anemic than usual. That's why some guys rewire SR's and
similar amps so that the two channels are in phase with each other--so
that they can jumper the channels.
I'm suprised Weber didn't claim that your amp would only play
"forward" if you were facing it at all times. Good God. It's like
George Bush teaching a class on The History of Diplomacy.
> If you own a Bassman, I
> suggest that you check the phase of all speakers using the battery
> method previously described. Often a speaker will be reconed and will
> be reinstalled backwards. If one speaker is moving out while the
> others are moving in, the speakers are actually working against each
> other. The amp will lack punch and projection, and low end will
> suffer.
Now, THAT part is true! If you have one speaker out of phase, you
will have phase cancellation, and the sound and volume will suffer.
Weber doesn't know which to believe--Physics, or urban legends. So he
proclaims both to the world.
> Also, if own a 5F6A REISSUE, you will want to reverse the
> speaker wires on each speaker so that the amp plays forward like an
> original.
More unintentional satire...
> I would check them with a battery just to make certain. When
> you find the positive terminal by today's standards, it should go to
> the sleeve of the plug and the negative terminal should go to the pin
> in the middle of the plug..."
>
> -G. Weber pg. 53-54 "A DESKTOP REFERENCE OF HIP VINTAGE GUITAR AMPS"
> 1994
Wow. Weber IS an idiot.
> I have say, Ether I checked this and sure enough, all four speakers
> required a lead reversal like above, in order to match the battery + /
> - "forward play" test.
That's all fine and good. But as I said, it only matters that all of
the speakers are wired the same way. The speakers are being fed an AC
signal. "A" for "alternating". The cone is moving back and forth--
forward AND backward. Your ear has no idea which half of the waveform
is the "top" half and which is the "bottom" half, and it doesn't
matter--as long as all of the cones are moving forward or backward at
the same time.
As I also said, the polarity only really matters if you have a speaker
with one terminal connected to the frame. You don't want the positive
speaker lead connected to the frame, since it could potentially short
against the chassis.
> The amp rocks.
As it should!
> Maybe you're right about the
> fallacy of this test
Ain't no "maybe" about it!
> or the competence of Weber compared to William
> the Witless.
Sad, but true!
> Hell, I don't know, I just play the guitar and love the
> shit out of gear and tone tweaking. mvm
Sheeit yeah! But beware the charlatans.
--E
Thanks Ether- It's difficult to know what's what these days given the
intense specialization of function we all have. There are people
giving bad financial, medical and legal advice too, but to some
extent, we get a degree of protection due to the fact they're highly
regulated industries...each has a long history of abuse in the name of
capitalistic greed that led to decades of iterative regulation...
Clearly, electronics is one of those unregulated caveat emptor fields.
The subject matter can get very deep (especially for the otherwise
uneducated and ignorant -like most of us instrument players), so we're
at the mercy of those who have developed a widely
recognized name in the field, like Weber, Hunter and Pittman. This
site offers up people like that tech in Denver, who essentially
degraded himself so deeply over the years, noone but cowards with
defective personality disorders are likely to stomach his advice.
As the old saying goes -where that fella is concerned- "who you are
screams so loud I can't hear a word you're saying".
At any rate, thank you again for your take on Weber's "play forward"
spiel. I guess I did no harm, -and believe this- any/all reading
I've ever done about amp electronics is merely for the sake of being
able to hold a bit of a discussion with with whoever I may take my
amps to over the years, that's all. Caps, resistors, ohms, tubes both
pre-amp and power-output, interleaved transformers, -all this was
completely foriegn to me as a player. I think guys owe it to
themselves to at least familiarize themselves with what's-what if
they're going to purchase gear. Many don't bother. Perhaps they're
better off, I don't know, I just sort of enjoy it all on an admittedly
surface level. What are your thoughts on Dave Hunter's material? mvm
I covered that. To repeat:
"Now, it DOES matter that your speakers are not connected out of phase
with each other. That it, when you do the battery test, make sure
that all of them are either "playing forward" or "playing backward" at
the same time. You don't want any of the speakers out of phase with
the others. In other words, you want the hot lead connected to the
same terminal on all four speakers. The battery test will tell you
which terminal is which, just in case the voice coil is connected
differently on one of the speakers."
The same is true if you are using two amps. See my other comment about
the differing phase of the two channels in many Fender amps.
--E
Remember--these are not scholars who have been vetted by the Nobel
committee. They're guys selling books or other crap. As with any
"knowledge," you have to consider the source.
> This
> site offers up people like that tech in Denver, who essentially
> degraded himself so deeply over the years, noone but cowards with
> defective personality disorders are likely to stomach his advice.
He's an asswipe, but his electronic opinions are generally sound.
> As the old saying goes -where that fella is concerned- "who you are
> screams so loud I can't hear a word you're saying".
That's just his heart about to give out. It creaks like an old
compressor.
>
> At any rate, thank you again for your take on Weber's "play forward"
> spiel. I guess I did no harm, -and believe this- any/all reading
> I've ever done about amp electronics is merely for the sake of being
> able to hold a bit of a discussion with with whoever I may take my
> amps to over the years, that's all. Caps, resistors, ohms, tubes both
> pre-amp and power-output, interleaved transformers, -all this was
> completely foriegn to me as a player. I think guys owe it to
> themselves to at least familiarize themselves with what's-what if
> they're going to purchase gear. Many don't bother. Perhaps they're
> better off, I don't know, I just sort of enjoy it all on an admittedly
> surface level. What are your thoughts on Dave Hunter's material? mvm
I haven't read anything by Hunter. Couldn't be worse than the other
two, though.
--E
Ether wrote:
> > This
> > site offers up people like that tech in Denver, who essentially
> > degraded himself so deeply over the years, noone but cowards with
> > defective personality disorders are likely to stomach his advice.
>
> He's an asswipe, but his electronic opinions are generally sound.
And you're a fucktard/queef, having a "technical" discussion with Walter Mitty,
who is doubtless flying in his taxi, takin' tips and gettin' stoned.
Imagine that.
Say - did you ever figure out how an
indirectly heated cathode rectifier works?
Probably not.
Go fuck your mother.
Lord Valve
Expert
And right on cue, Willie awakes.
How's your daughter, asswipe?
--E
He's got many books out and I've enjoyed them. mvm
Oh- also, Dan Erlewine for guitar repair and maintenence oriented
stuff.
> Go fuck your mother
Advice from LV based on personal experience.
timepixdc wrote:
I fucked your mother?
Hmmmm....musta been at the smoke-in at the Washington Monument
in '68. How old are you?
LV
Some well-intentioned advice;
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar.amps/browse_thread/thread/d469de888d30accc/#
> I fucked
Your hand doesn't count.