Ceramic vs Silver Mica pF Caps
Mark T. Van Ditta
I have been using silver mica caps as coupling/bypass caps for the pF
range of values; however, I am getting tired of not being able to get
these caps locally (having to place an order for 1 cap really sucks!).
I would like to hear from anybody who has experience using ceramic
(monolithic or multi-layer), pF-range-caps in guitar and audio
applications.
Thanks,
Mark
Tonefactor
>I would like to hear from anybody who has experience using ceramic
>(monolithic or multi-layer), pF-range-caps in guitar and audio
>applications.
I prefer ceramic over silver mica in my Marshalls. They add a little extra
grittiness to the sound.
Kb0tj
I prefer the silver mica caps in my Marshalls... they get rid of that AWFULL
grityness.
Bruce
Tonefactor
>I prefer the silver mica caps in my Marshalls... they get rid of that AWFULL
>grityness.
>
>
Maybe you should consider trading your Marshall in on a Roland Jazz Chorus.
Tone _King
I am lucky, the local electronics store has a large selection
of metalized polyester 600 volt caps and these seem to be great
substitutes.
I have used monolithic for bypass caps on volume pots and occasionally
has a high value network cap.
Thr Mica caps are getting rarer at supply stores for some reason
and I agree with you about it being a pain needing just one.
For what it is worth, some of my best sounding/working projects
have been made from "junk-box" parts. Using whatever is on hand.
Marshall used ceramic caps on the JCM 800 for bypass and there 470pf
/470K networks and no one complained.
cheers
Tone_King
In article <3527B5A6...@NOSPAM.erols.com>, bio...@NOSPAM.erols.com
says...
>
>I have been using silver mica caps as coupling/bypass caps for the pF
>range of values; however, I am getting tired of not being able to get
>these caps locally (having to place an order for 1 cap really sucks!).
>I would like to hear from anybody who has experience using ceramic
>(monolithic or multi-layer), pF-range-caps in guitar and audio
>applications.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mark
>
Mark T. Van Ditta
Tone _King wrote:
> I am lucky, the local electronics store has a large selection
> of metalized polyester 600 volt caps and these seem to be great
> substitutes.
I have one very good local electronics store, Baynesville Electronics.
They have a great selection of eletrolytic and plastic caps; however,
the only thing they seem to have in the pF-range is ceramic.
> I have used monolithic for bypass caps on volume pots and occasionally
>
> has a high value network cap.
>
That's good to know. I looking to use them in tone stacks.
> Thr Mica caps are getting rarer at supply stores for some reason
> and I agree with you about it being a pain needing just one.
>
Does anyone know why this is so?
> For what it is worth, some of my best sounding/working projects
> have been made from "junk-box" parts. Using whatever is on hand.
>
That's also good to know.
>
> Marshall used ceramic caps on the JCM 800 for bypass and there 470pf
> /470K networks and no one complained.
Do techs tend to swap these out for silver mica?
Mark
Mark Amundson
Kb0tj wrote:
> I prefer the silver mica caps in my Marshalls... they get rid of that AWFULL
There was a post awhile back that disliked micas for some reason. I like
micas for RF work because of value stability over temperature and high
Q. Ceramics probably give varying performance due to the different types
ceramic materials. I would guess that the itty bitty 50 volt types would
sound a little different than one rated for over 500 volts.
Mark Amundson,
DJMO...@pathway.net
After a conversation with Dave Funk, I started messing around with
combinations of coupling caps in parallel, (add the values), like a
silver-mica with a ceramic. You can get some neat variations on the "grit
factor" this way. Try mixing a ceramic with a Sprague Orange-Drop.
Darren
>
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Dave Stork
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:15:54 -0700, Mark Amundson <mamu...@mr.net>
wrote:
>There was a post awhile back that disliked micas for some reason. I like
>micas for RF work because of value stability over temperature...
I also like micas for stuff like RF oscillators. However, I've
sometimes used negative tempco ceramics (like N750 types) in order to
cancel out, to a certain degree, the positive tempco of permeable
cores in inductors used in the circuit.
At audio frequencies, I haven't formed any strong opinions. I usually
use micas here as well just because I know they're good quality caps.
I use Orange Drops for the same reason: good quality and long life. I
haven't conducted extensive "listening tests" like the audiophiles do
:-)
--
Dave Stork
Stork Audio
New York
http://members.aol.com/StorkAudio
For email replies, remove "nospam" from address
Lord Valve
In <3527B5A6...@NOSPAM.erols.com> "Mark T. Van Ditta"
<bio...@NOSPAM.erols.com> writes:
>
>I have been using silver mica caps as coupling/bypass caps for the pF
>range of values; however, I am getting tired of not being able to get
>these caps locally (having to place an order for 1 cap really sucks!).
>I would like to hear from anybody who has experience using ceramic
>(monolithic or multi-layer), pF-range-caps in guitar and audio
>applications.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mark
>
To me, silver micas sound like shit in Fenders. I hate the glassy
high end those things produce. A plain old ceramic disc cap is the way
to go; cheap, and you can get 'em anywhere.
Lord Valve
Website at: http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/lord-valve/
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." - Mark Twain
Dave Stork
On 6 Apr 1998 09:25:54 GMT, detr...@ix.netcom.com(Lord Valve) wrote:
>Lord Valve Speaketh:
>To me, silver micas sound like shit in Fenders. I hate the glassy
>high end those things produce. A plain old ceramic disc cap is the way
>to go; cheap, and you can get 'em anywhere.
What accounts for this difference in sound?
Lord Valve
bingo
Actually, the NPO ceramics make good audio capacitors, low
dielectric-absorbtion etc. and even precision values. We use them in pro
equipment at work. Check fig 7 at this site to see a comparision of
different caps. Silver mica is not really great for audio, but very stable
for critical filters.
http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1127,28,00.html
here's a quote from the article:
If a ceramic capacitor is not an NP0 device, is it any good? Most of
the conventional high-K ceramics are just terrible -- 20 to 1000 times
worse than NP0 and even worse than tantalum.
JP
Naww, she was plaing in my amp the other day, and she decided to rest
her ass on pin 3 of my 6L6 and her feet on the chasis, all that's left now is
ferry dust. I guess we're on our own now, Ay.
-- Jp --
____________________________________________________________
To Reply E-Mail you must remove the "No.Spam" from my E-mail
address
Mike Schway
In article <3529baa1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
dst...@nospam.ibm.net (Dave Stork) wrote:
>On 6 Apr 1998 09:25:54 GMT, detr...@ix.netcom.com(Lord Valve) wrote:
>
>>Lord Valve Speaketh:
>>To me, silver micas sound like shit in Fenders. I hate the glassy
>>high end those things produce. A plain old ceramic disc cap is the way
>>to go; cheap, and you can get 'em anywhere.
>
>What accounts for this difference in sound?
>
Pardon my ignorance (the depths of which can be pretty darn considerable
sometimes), but aren't ceramic caps *much* more microphonic than
silver-micas?
OTOH, maybe it isn't too much of a concern since it (I'm assuming your're
referring to the 250pF treble pass cap connected to the plate of the first
stage) is pretty firmly anchored against the fiberboard. Maybe
microphonic caps are more of a problem with *true* point-to-point wiring.
--Mike Schway
--
=====================================================================
|
Mike Schway | [visualize your favorite quote here]
msc...@nas.com |
|
=====================================================================
Danny Russell
Mike Schway wrote:
>
> In article <3529baa1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
> dst...@nospam.ibm.net (Dave Stork) wrote:
>
> >On 6 Apr 1998 09:25:54 GMT, detr...@ix.netcom.com(Lord Valve) wrote:
> >
> >>Lord Valve Speaketh:
> >>To me, silver micas sound like shit in Fenders. I hate the glassy
> >>high end those things produce. A plain old ceramic disc cap is the way
> >>to go; cheap, and you can get 'em anywhere.
> >
> >What accounts for this difference in sound?
> >
>
> Pardon my ignorance (the depths of which can be pretty darn considerable
> sometimes), but aren't ceramic caps *much* more microphonic than
> silver-micas?
>
> OTOH, maybe it isn't too much of a concern since it (I'm assuming your're
> referring to the 250pF treble pass cap connected to the plate of the first
> stage) is pretty firmly anchored against the fiberboard. Maybe
> microphonic caps are more of a problem with *true* point-to-point wiring.
It seems as though when they are hanging suspended by the leads in a
point-to-point wireup as you mention, they tend to resonate like a bell
or a tuning fork. The shorter the leads, the higher the pitch. However
sometimes when they are lying against the fiberboard or anything else
for that matter, they can vibrate against the surface which really
causes a rauchious trash-can rattle much like a preamp tube with really
loose innards. I'm not sure whether the silver-micas are immune or at
least resistant to this. I think I've encountered metalized-foil types
that produce sound when they vibrate. Sometimes caps will have you
looking in vain for that "microphonic tube". -Danny
Tonefactor
>aren't ceramic caps *much* more microphonic than
>silver-micas?
>
>
Maybe that's why they sound better.
CERREM
The main difference between the two types of caps is the equivalent circuit...
Caps have a bunch of internal nasties that ultimately create a small but
noticable circuit network within the cap...
The dielectric absorption for silvered mica caps is very very low and can
effect time constant in this network with respect to ESR and small inductance
values...There is also leakages that need to be considered..When you pass a
pulse through a cap and look at the results...it is possible to then figure the
transfer function of this network using LaPlace Transforms putting into S
domain...
The stability of this network also affect the overshoot and ringing that occur
to the pulse... A nice cap has well damped output from low ESR such as MIT
polysterene caps ect....
Also the reactance of the cap with respect to frequency may surprise some
people when measured..
This is what makes caps sound different.....and every brand has it's own
characteristic network ....
So you choose the cap that sounds the most pleasing to your ear...although it
may be offensive to another ear..........
CHEERS
C.M.
Dave Stork
Excellent reply. You provided information, not just arbitrary
assertions. My math skills aren't up to L-transforms, but at least
you've given enough information that one could verify the assertion if
one were so inclined. I wish more posts were like yours.
--
Java Cafe
Up until now I have been silent but this post demanded a reply. While, I
agree that the original post was excellent, the bottom line is use your ears
in selecting capacitors.
To all others, please continue make your non scientific assertions.
Subjective opinions are heartily welcomed by myself and comprise most of the
knowledge used by the common man.
Even in my chosen field of General Medicine, empericism makes up over half
of the practised knowledge base used in patient care. Empiricism, not
science.
While some opinions may be better than others, none is worthless if stated
with honesty.
This group is used by a number of persons who have good knowledge in audio
electronics including the nomenclature, but it is not here for their
exclusivity.
Tube guitar amplifiers are a great example of subjectiveness at its extreme.
What is good tone? Is it brown, is it loose? Good tone is simply that which
sounds good to YOUR ears.
My JTM 45 back at home has good tone to me, but my brother who is a jazz
guitarist, finds it to be harsh. Is his assertion wrong? Too subjective?
Please continue posting openly in this newsgroup. An open world wide
collection of ideas on guitar amplifiers is certainly worth having.
Sheila McCormack
from an Internet Cafe ( no personal reply possible as I am only
in Canada for 1 more week, then I am off to Germany )
Dave Stork wrote in message <3532699b...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
Dave Stork
Sheila, your point is excellent, but you should bear in mind that the
guitar amp world is infested with misinformation, half-truths, "gurus"
with agendas and incompetent practitioners. Nobody should presume to
suppress the expression of subjective data; however, it happens too
often that someone reads something in a magazine or newsgroup and
passes it along as incontrovertible fact. I'm certainly never annoyed
when someone says "I don't know why, but capacitor X just sounds
better to me than capacitor Y." What gets me is when the statement is
framed "Always use capacitor Y" without any explanation whatsoever.
What's the harm of arbitrary statements? Many players will trust too
much in "authority" and will waste time, money and sleep because
they've been led to believe that inadequacies exist in their gear. It
would be wrong if nobody stood up and asked for data or at least some
detailed subjective evidence. I had a customer who owned a Traynor
tube amp (a Bassmaster) that worked well and sounded great, but he
wanted to pay me to replace all the stranded wire with solid-core. His
enjoyment of his perfectly adequate amplifier had been ruined because
someone had told him that the stranded wire spoils the tone! It would
have been easy money for me to play along, but I felt compelled to
talk him out of it.
Randall Aiken
CERREM wrote:
<snip>
>When you pass a
> pulse through a cap and look at the results...it is possible to then figure the
> transfer function of this network using LaPlace Transforms putting into S
> domain...
<snip>
> C.M.
Hi, C.M.,
Would you please elaborate on this procedure? Don't spare the math, I
am quite familiar with Laplace transforms.
Thank you,
Randall Aiken
rea...@innova.net
Dave Stork
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:34:20 -0400, Randall Aiken <rea...@innova.net>
wrote:
>CERREM wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>When you pass a
>> pulse through a cap and look at the results...it is possible to then figure the
>> transfer function of this network using LaPlace Transforms putting into S
>> domain...
>Would you please elaborate on this procedure? Don't spare the math, I
>am quite familiar with Laplace transforms.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Randall Aiken
>rea...@innova.net
Damn... This is light years beyond me, as a self-taught high school
dropout, but please go ahead and post just so I can look at it and
marvel.
Dr. Stereo
So CERREM:
Would you, like LV, advocate that the customer be given the option of
several caps to try,.... While he is there, take them out and solder others
in so he can play (on) the amp and select the best combination by
listening......Interesting....
Cordials
Dr. Stereo
NOCTURNAL10
You know it would be nice though,as a customer,to have an amp guy that knew
what he was talking about if I knew enough to ask.
Dr. Stereo wrote in message <6h37ip$fvt$1...@news.hal-pc.org>...
Randall Aiken
Randall Aiken wrote:
>
> CERREM wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >When you pass a
> > pulse through a cap and look at the results...it is possible to then figure the
> > transfer function of this network using LaPlace Transforms putting into S
> > domain...
>
>
> > C.M.
>
> Hi, C.M.,
>
> Would you please elaborate on this procedure? Don't spare the math, I
> am quite familiar with Laplace transforms.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Randall Aiken
> rea...@innova.net
Enquiring minds are waiting...
RA