COMPARING SUPER REVERB AMPS.............
HWBossHoss
Fender amp, and I have a couple of questions....
I was considering a '65 Twin Reverb Reissue, but it sounds a bit too brittle
for me...not a whole lot of warmth, just a lot of top end. Not a horrible
sounding amp, just not what I'm looking for. It does have a LOT of headroom,
which is what I want, since I will be using the amp for my clean sound.
The music store where I work has a '65 Super Reverb Reissue and an extremely
clean, all-original Silverface Super Reverb from the mid- to late-1970's. I
have narrowed my search to one of these amps. I can get the Reissue amp for
wholesale plus 10 percent, and I can get the Silverface for $850.
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS....
1) The Silverface Super Reverb is a master volume model, with the push/pull
master volume pot. (I guess it's a 1977 or 1978 model?) Could someone compare
the '65 Super Reverb Reissue to the Silverface in terms of circuitry?
Generally speaking, how does the '65 Reissue compare to the Silverface in terms
of overall tone/noise/headroom? Which one would tend to have more headroom
without breaking up too much? I want this amp to play CLEAN!!
Which amp is closer to a true "blackface" circuit and sound? What about the
speakers/tube circuits/transformers/etc.? Does either amp have junk for parts?
Which of these two amps would you prefer--not only soundwise, but on a
technical basis? One more thing--Does the master volume of the Silverface mess
up the sound of that amp? I would plan to simply run the master volume all the
way up and use the channel volumes as my "real" volume controls.
2) The Silverface is EXTREMELY clean and was never gigged or modified. It
basically sat in a studio and has no rips in the tolex or grille cloth. It
sounds very nice and warm, and I'm leaning toward that one...BUT...the amp
makes a horrible buzzing noise through the speakers when you are playing fairly
loud and CLEAN. I'm NOT talking about distortion! It is a rattling, farty
type of sound that happens ONLY when I play G & A notes on the D string, and it
happens even if you disconnect the amp's speakers and play the amp through an
extension speaker cabinet--so it can't be the speakers. It's really weird how
the amp only does it on those specific notes, and I'm thinking that it might be
a tube rattling. Or could it be something more serious? I was really kind of
leaning toward the Silverface amp but I don't want to buy it if it has some
problems. I plan to gig with this amp.
Any help/guidance/therapy you can give me would be MUCH appreciated!
THANKS!!!!
HWBossHoss
Balance Control" on the far right end of the back panel.
Jim Anable
> After being a Marshall amp player for so long, I am in the market for a new
> Fender amp, and I have a couple of questions....
>
> I was considering a '65 Twin Reverb Reissue, but it sounds a bit too brittle
> for me...not a whole lot of warmth, just a lot of top end. Not a horrible
> sounding amp, just not what I'm looking for. It does have a LOT of headroom,
> which is what I want, since I will be using the amp for my clean sound.
>
> The music store where I work has a '65 Super Reverb Reissue and an extremely
> clean, all-original Silverface Super Reverb from the mid- to late-1970's. I
> have narrowed my search to one of these amps. I can get the Reissue amp for
> wholesale plus 10 percent, and I can get the Silverface for $850.
If the silverface has a mids control on the "normal" channel, be advised that it is
the 70W ultralinear model.
> HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS....
>
> 1) The Silverface Super Reverb is a master volume model, with the push/pull
> master volume pot. (I guess it's a 1977 or 1978 model?) Could someone compare
> the '65 Super Reverb Reissue to the Silverface in terms of circuitry?
> Generally speaking, how does the '65 Reissue compare to the Silverface in terms
> of overall tone/noise/headroom? Which one would tend to have more headroom
> without breaking up too much? I want this amp to play CLEAN!!
Then you may actually like the 70W model.
> Which amp is closer to a true "blackface" circuit and sound?
Are you sure that's what you really want, or is it just the blackface mystique?
Let your ears guide you, not the color of the panel. The blackface isn't the best
choice for every player. If you want bottom and clean headroom, I'm suggesting
blackface is not the answer.
I'm sure Rich will jump in and save me from regurgitating much of what I've learned
from him, but the silverface should get you a little more headroom and more
bottoms. It has a heftier output transformer, for one thing. The 70W later
silverface will get you even more headroom. The ceramic magnet speakers may give
more bottom.
> What about the
> speakers/tube circuits/transformers/etc.?
The 70W models have ceramic magnet speakers instead of alnico. Various
manufacturers were used at different times. Mine are CTS alnico's.
> Does either amp have junk for parts?
> Which of these two amps would you prefer--not only soundwise, but on a
> technical basis? One more thing--Does the master volume of the Silverface mess
> up the sound of that amp?
Most guys do NOT like the pull boost. But the answer is to not pull it! I believe
that when the master is on full, the only difference is 1 Meg of resistance
parallel to ground. I've been told that you cannot hear the difference, but the MV
can be taken out of the circuit all together, if that's what you really want.
However, a good tech like Rich can rework the preamp gain characteristics to make
the MV useful.
> I would plan to simply run the master volume all the
> way up and use the channel volumes as my "real" volume controls.
>
> 2) The Silverface is EXTREMELY clean and was never gigged or modified. It
> basically sat in a studio and has no rips in the tolex or grille cloth. It
> sounds very nice and warm, and I'm leaning toward that one...BUT...the amp
> makes a horrible buzzing noise through the speakers when you are playing fairly
> loud and CLEAN. I'm NOT talking about distortion! It is a rattling, farty
> type of sound that happens ONLY when I play G & A notes on the D string, and it
> happens even if you disconnect the amp's speakers and play the amp through an
> extension speaker cabinet--so it can't be the speakers.
Ask Rich Koerner of Time Electronics. He knows his stuff, and has a passion for
SR's.
RonSonic
>After being a Marshall amp player for so long, I am in the market for a new
>Fender amp, and I have a couple of questions....
>
>I was considering a '65 Twin Reverb Reissue, but it sounds a bit too brittle
>for me...not a whole lot of warmth, just a lot of top end. Not a horrible
>sounding amp, just not what I'm looking for. It does have a LOT of headroom,
>which is what I want, since I will be using the amp for my clean sound.
>
>The music store where I work has a '65 Super Reverb Reissue and an extremely
>clean, all-original Silverface Super Reverb from the mid- to late-1970's. I
>have narrowed my search to one of these amps. I can get the Reissue amp for
>wholesale plus 10 percent, and I can get the Silverface for $850.
>
>HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS....
>
>1) The Silverface Super Reverb is a master volume model, with the push/pull
>master volume pot. (I guess it's a 1977 or 1978 model?) Could someone compare
>the '65 Super Reverb Reissue to the Silverface in terms of circuitry?
>Generally speaking, how does the '65 Reissue compare to the Silverface in terms
>of overall tone/noise/headroom? Which one would tend to have more headroom
>without breaking up too much? I want this amp to play CLEAN!!
The SF. All the mods CBS made leaned in that direction.
>Which amp is closer to a true "blackface" circuit and sound? What about the
>speakers/tube circuits/transformers/etc.? Does either amp have junk for parts?
> Which of these two amps would you prefer--not only soundwise, but on a
>technical basis? One more thing--Does the master volume of the Silverface mess
>up the sound of that amp? I would plan to simply run the master volume all the
>way up and use the channel volumes as my "real" volume controls.
Then it won't hurt a thing.
>2) The Silverface is EXTREMELY clean and was never gigged or modified. It
>basically sat in a studio and has no rips in the tolex or grille cloth. It
>sounds very nice and warm, and I'm leaning toward that one...BUT...the amp
>makes a horrible buzzing noise through the speakers when you are playing fairly
>loud and CLEAN. I'm NOT talking about distortion! It is a rattling, farty
>type of sound that happens ONLY when I play G & A notes on the D string, and it
>happens even if you disconnect the amp's speakers and play the amp through an
>extension speaker cabinet--so it can't be the speakers. It's really weird how
>the amp only does it on those specific notes, and I'm thinking that it might be
>a tube rattling. Or could it be something more serious? I was really kind of
>leaning toward the Silverface amp but I don't want to buy it if it has some
>problems. I plan to gig with this amp.
>
>Any help/guidance/therapy you can give me would be MUCH appreciated!
Jim told you right in his post. I'm leaning toward tube rattle as a possibility.
Hear anything when you tap on tubes?
Loud and clean ain't the BFSR way, these are not particularly clean amps. Does
this one say "70 Watts" under the speaker jacks? If so it is the least
blackfaced of all the SR's which for what you describe may be a good thing. Play
'em both and by the one you like better. The SF will outlast that reissue by
decades. It may need work, but once that's done, I would consider it more likely
to be reliable.
Ron
HWBossHoss
>this one say "70 Watts" under the speaker jacks?
I can't remember if the SF has a "Mid" control, so I'll have to check to make
sure if it is the 70-watt model.
I do know for a fact that it says "45 watts" under the speaker jacks. That was
one of the first things I checked.
RonSonic
Okay, so it isn't the ultralinear, shoulda said so before.
This is a blackfaceable amp. Which you may or may not want. If'n you like it
don't change it, just get that noise fixed and get the preventative maintenance
done and you'll have an amp good for another couple of decades.
Ron
Wämp
balance. Go through it once and you'll be in very good shape. The UL units are far
too sterile for me. Good Luck. Chris
HWBossHoss
>balance.
Sorry for the dumb question, but what do you mean when you say that most
silverface amps "are a balance"? Is that some kind of biasing method? I'm
clueless when it comes to electronics. Thanks in advance.....
WakyAmps
news:20040226162646...@mb-m16.aol.com:
Yes, the balance comment refers to how the power tubes are
biased. There's a cheap and easy mod that does a much better job.
HWBossHoss
>biased. There's a cheap and easy mod that does a much better job.
I might be wrong, but I am assuming that the "balance" method is a fixed,
non-variable bias setting, and the mod makes the bias setting adjustable?
WakyAmps
news:20040226173455...@mb-m13.aol.com:
Basically. The balance method divvies up a fixed bias voltage
between the two tubes. The mod makes the "fixed" bias voltage
variable. Best of all worlds is where you end up with both
adjustments -- lets you adjust overall bias voltage and then lets
you balance that overall bias voltage between a pair of tubes to
compensate for mismatch -- or, if you like the tone, to
intentionally introduce mismatch :)
Jim Anable
You've got the same type that I just bought, and is now sitting on Rich Koerner's
bench. He just reconditioned the speakers.
http://www.seattle-attorney.com/speaker_before.jpg
http://www.seattle-attorney.com/speaker_after.jpg
He's waiting on some filter caps. Then he'll do the bias mod, some tweaking on the
reverb circuit, then install his reference tubes and give it a go. If it needs it,
he'll tweak the gain structure to get the tone where he's happy with it. I trust
his judgment, he knows how it should sound.
Wämp
is the out put transformer shunt method, which requires only a small
understanding of what goes on, a safe approach and a meter that will read
mili volts. CBS Fender used the same pot, in the same place, to do the
balance so the mod is very simple, yet it's academic and I get out the book
to do it, being feeble brained.
Astin Pitmans book or Gerald Webber's are fun. I hope LV or Rich take time
out and put in another contender. Chris
Wämp
intentional miss match! Chris
Rich Koerner
HWBossHoss wrote:
>
> After being a Marshall amp player for so long, I am in the market for a new
> Fender amp, and I have a couple of questions....
Will, you have more than a few of them.
Let's see how thing go.
> I was considering a '65 Twin Reverb Reissue, but it sounds a bit too brittle
> for me...not a whole lot of warmth, just a lot of top end. Not a horrible
> sounding amp, just not what I'm looking for.
I'll take the use of the word BRITTLE, to mean too much highs, for the given guitar
plugged into the amp.
First, it would be most helpful to mention, exactly what guitar you are using here. A Les
Paul would have me recommending one model year of Super Reverb, and for a Telecaster,
another.
> It does have a LOT of headroom,
> which is what I want, since I will be using the amp for my clean sound.
Here again, there is missing information. For what and WHERE, are you going to use the
Super Reverb.
A gig level volume is one thing. Playing at home another.
Note - Super Reverbs sound their BEST, when cranked up LOUD!!!!!!
You have to WAKE them up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> The music store where I work has a '65 Super Reverb Reissue and an extremely
> clean, all-original Silverface Super Reverb from the mid- to late-1970's. I
> have narrowed my search to one of these amps. I can get the Reissue amp for
> wholesale plus 10 percent, and I can get the Silverface for $850.
>
> HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS....
>
> 1) The Silverface Super Reverb is a master volume model, with the push/pull
> master volume pot. (I guess it's a 1977 or 1978 model?)
Very good. You are in the ballpark.
And, you are talking about the same basic amp Jim Anable just picked up.
In the time line of Super Reverbs, the 70 watt version appeared next.
Which, is an excellent amp, with some tweaks.
> Could someone compare
> the '65 Super Reverb Reissue to the Silverface in terms of circuitry?
Stop in the Fender Field Guide, and compare the prints. It will save me a shit pile of
typing.
You 've happened to catch me taking a break from the bench.
> Generally speaking, how does the '65 Reissue compare to the Silverface in terms
> of overall tone/noise/headroom?
Well, the 65 tends to like low output pickups better, thus better head room in the front
end stages.
The EQ favors the highs and mids. This, due to the speakers and ckt designs.
> Which one would tend to have more headroom
> without breaking up too much? I want this amp to play CLEAN!!
The Silver Face you mentioned has the edge in that department.
The 70 watt version, even more!!!!!!!
> Which amp is closer to a true "blackface" circuit and sound?
This may seem a little confusing, what I'm about to say here.
You have to remember that ALL Super Reverbs have a Super Reverb thing about them. No
other amp in the world does what a Super Reverb DOES.
And THAT is,..... that no other amp in the world DEFINES the sound of the guitar YOU
choose to plug into it, the WAY, a Super Reverb does it.
To me, it takes any guitar you plug into it, and it defines the FINER points of what
EXACTLY you have!!!!!!
For example, it takes a Telecaster, and makes it MORE Telecaster!!!!!!!!!!!!
Same for Strats to Pauls,..... any guitar.
So, having said that,... the different model years of Super Reverb does this same type of
defining thing, in slightly different ways.
My first encounter with this was in Mike Gutowski's Music store in Elizabeth NJ, in 1965.
The Super Reverb had a full house of JBL D-110's in it.
I was hooked way back then.
> What about the
> speakers/tube circuits/transformers/etc.?
Well, Super Reverbs have had quite a few different speakers slapped in them at the factory
during their years of production runs.
All these different speakers have placed their mark on the Super Reverb thing along the
way.
Each type of speaker worked fine for the average Super Reverb user. None of them were a
*bad* sounding speaker. It's just that, with the selection of one guitar over another,
you would have a preference for one over the other. But, that is a thing for one who has
had a Super Reverb for a while, and likes the basic Super Reverb THING they do. This
would fall into getting in to the finer points of what the best speaker choice for your
Super Reverb thing would be for your selection of guitar. It's a down the road sort of
thing.
> Does either amp have junk for parts?
No, not really.
Well,... that is as long as we ARE NOT talking about THAT newly Re-issued version of the
amp, that Fender Forgot HOW to make.
Any of their Printed Circuit Board models of RI tube amplifiers, you could not GIVE
me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, what have they REALLY learned in THEIR 50 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<side bar>
NOTE - For those of you, who for what ever reason, have one of these RI Fender amps, and
want to have a Non Polished Turd REAL RI amp, call me and let's talk about my conversions
for such.
<to continue>
> Which of these two amps would you prefer--not only soundwise, but on a
> technical basis?
To get a feel about where I'm at on amplifiers in general,... take a look here.
http://timeelect.com/RichAmps.htm
You can see I have a passion for Super Reverbs.
Best amp Fender ever made. But, the current Fender, is clue less.
> One more thing--Does the master volume of the Silverface mess
> up the sound of that amp?
Here in AGA there was a raging debate over that issue of master vs non master.
Taking a SF Super Reverb one day on my bench, I made some tests on the output of the amp,
then disconnected the master volume. There was really nothing to SEE or HEAR, for a
difference.
The only difference was if there was a capacitor on the master, and you were using it in
that zone where the cap, actually had impact on the circuit. But full up,.... it's not
there.
The pull boost, is another thing. It sucked.
Some guys have me pull the pull switch pot, and install a non pull master volume. In
doing so, it allows a better BF conversion to a SF Super.
> I would plan to simply run the master volume all the
> way up and use the channel volumes as my "real" volume controls.
There you go. That tweed Super Reverb of mine has no master.
> 2) The Silverface is EXTREMELY clean and was never gigged or modified. It
> basically sat in a studio and has no rips in the tolex or grille cloth. It
> sounds very nice and warm, and I'm leaning toward that one...
I would. Better tranny's, and less aging on the speakers.
It makes a better BF Super Reverb work horse for a working musician.
> BUT...the amp
> makes a horrible buzzing noise through the speakers when you are playing fairly
> loud and CLEAN.
Most likely a tube, connection, or parasitic problem.
> I'm NOT talking about distortion! It is a rattling, farty
> type of sound that happens ONLY when I play G & A notes on the D string, and it
> happens even if you disconnect the amp's speakers and play the amp through an
> extension speaker cabinet--so it can't be the speakers. It's really weird how
> the amp only does it on those specific notes, and I'm thinking that it might be
> a tube rattling. Or could it be something more serious?
Tired speakers of high mileage or age will give that typical low E string fart. That can
be taken care of by a speaker treatment. http://timeelect.com/vinsp.htm
> I was really kind of
> leaning toward the Silverface amp but I don't want to buy it if it has some
> problems. I plan to gig with this amp.
OK,... for doing gigs, it's a better thing.
BTW,.....
http://timeelect.com/Elliott.htm
http://www.elliott-randall.com/suprev.htm
> Any help/guidance/therapy you can give me would be MUCH appreciated!
>
> THANKS!!!!
No problem!!!
I'm just a phone call away if you want to talk. Phone is the primary means of getting a
hold of me.
Here, it's hit and miss. I have computer issues all the time.
Not to mention, I just plain hate typing!!!!!!!!!!
908-353-0933, late in the day is best.
Regards,
Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com
Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
JJman
>understanding of what goes on, a safe approach and a meter that will read
>mili volts.
Milliamps.