replacing filter caps in fender deluxe reverb
nik davis
change the filter caps on. The caps are stamped 16 MFD 450 V but I can't
find any that match that anywhere. What would be a suitable replacement?
(ie would 475 V 16 MFD work, 450 V 10 MFD)
Thanks
mykeym...@yahoo.com
higher MFD is good, higher voltage good,
lower MFD bad, lower voltage dont use at at all
beware of stale capacitors, they go bad with age
always buy the fresh made ones.
recommend you buy BLACKGATE capacitors
which last much longer and have almost unlimited
shelf life. they cost more but its worth it...
go to the Michael Percy website and check it out.
don't buy NOS capacitors, or capacitors that have
no confirmation of manufacture date.
There are lots of vendors who sell old stale
capacitors, they will tell you these caps are
fresh, don't buy them they are JUNK.
only buy from the most reputable sources.
DISCHARGE then TEST all capacitors
before installing. test for LEAKAGE.
do not install leaky capacitors.
notice: I do not sell capacitors, I
only recommend the best ones.
reset bias after changing caps or tubes.
change all electrolytics, not just power supply.
beware of any vendor who tells you: "this
old capacitor is still perfectly good" this is
BULLSHIT.
On Topic
Direct this question to Jochen (Germany) and you're likely to get a
friendly, useful advice in response- Good luck.
F&T ?
Claude V. Lucas
The "MFD" value is for the capacity of the capacitor and should
be as close as you can get for the replacement or else you can
change the way the circuit operates.
The "V" value is the voltage that the capacitor can handle
without bad things happening to it and as long as you choose
one that is not rated lower than the original and will physically
fit where it needs to you should be fine.
If you are replacing them yourself, be careful and be aware of
the polarity of the caps when you solder them into the amp.
Phil S.
"nik davis" <neros...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9867C8A2E2065n...@69.28.186.121...
See what Claude. Use the 475/16mf caps. They should be fine. I'm sure
mykey is very well intentioned, but, personally, I can't see the point of
spending the extra $$ for black gate caps. Sprague or Illinois are more
than good enough for this purpose. If you are as old as I am, you won't
need to worry much about the next cap job and if you should manage to
outlast the caps, you'll just do it again. The el cheapos that Fender put
in to begin with lasted 34 years.
Rich Koerner
20 MFD @ 500 WVDC.
Regards,
Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com
Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
nik
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:43:25 +0000, nik davis Has Frothed:
> What did you do test-wise to determine these capacitors are bad?
I was having some problems with the amp and did some reading,
and changing the filter caps was listed as one solution. I
also read they should be changed in amps this old for overall
better performance.
--
mykeym...@yahoo.com
Claude V. Lucas wrote:
> In article <Xns9867C8A2E2065n...@69.28.186.121>,
> nik davis <neros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I have an Fender Deluxe Reverb (the stamp inside says '72) that I need to
> >change the filter caps on. The caps are stamped 16 MFD 450 V but I can't
> >find any that match that anywhere. What would be a suitable replacement?
> >(ie would 475 V 16 MFD work, 450 V 10 MFD)
> >Thanks
>
> The "MFD" value is for the capacity of the capacitor and should
> be as close as you can get for the replacement or else you can
> change the way the circuit operates.
this is a real load. you can put 100 MFD or higher
and it will NOT "change the way the circuit operates"
this is a fairy tale. the only thing that happens is
the voltage increases slightly. then you rebias the
output tubes. anything 16 MFD or HIGHER will
work with no problem at all. in fact I prefer to
use at least 47-100MFD because power supply
will be filtered better and have less ripple, less
noise in amp, much improved.
Illinois capacitor (made in taiwan) is a very
low quality capacitor and not recommended by
people who know better. Invest in better
parts for the long haul. (advice from fender
authorized repair person, take it or leave it)
Mike Schway
mykeym...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The "MFD" value is for the capacity of the capacitor and should
> > be as close as you can get for the replacement or else you can
> > change the way the circuit operates.
>
> this is a real load. you can put 100 MFD or higher
> and it will NOT "change the way the circuit operates"
> this is a fairy tale. the only thing that happens is
> the voltage increases slightly. then you rebias the
> output tubes. anything 16 MFD or HIGHER will
> work with no problem at all. in fact I prefer to
> use at least 47-100MFD because power supply
> will be filtered better and have less ripple, less
> noise in amp, much improved.
Unless you have a tube rectifier. >50uF will be hard on your rectifier,
Sure, there's not much difference between 16 and 22uF, Usually I'll use
20/500s here. In fact, back in the days when the amp was new, the
normal tolerance for a fresh electrolytic was something like -25%/+75%.
In other words, a cap rated at 16uF could easily have been 25uF or
higher.
> Illinois capacitor (made in taiwan) is a very
> low quality capacitor and not recommended by
> people who know better. Invest in better
> parts for the long haul. (advice from fender
> authorized repair person, take it or leave it)
Take it from THIS authorized Fender repair person, they ain't THAT bad.
Off the shelf they'll often exhibit a lower ESR, dielectric absorption,
and leakage than a new Sprague atom. Also, the smaller package comes in
handy sometimes (actually the size has been a lifesaver for me on
occasion). Sure, I'll usually use a Sprague for a fender recap, but I
also keep those IECs in stock when size matters.
I will say this about the IECs, though: the lead diameter is lots
thinner than the Sprague, and if you do use them under a Fender can, you
have to make sure to leave a little slack (I like the way Rich coils his
leads on his recaps...I do something similar) Also, you should probably
beef up the neoprene padding under the doghouse so the caps are
mechanically stabilized.
--Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Schway | [Picture your favorite quote here]
msc...@nas.com |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Curtis
Hey myke,
What's the rectifier in this amp?
;o)
-Dave
Claude V. Lucas
Far be it for me to argue with a FENDER AUTHORIZED REPAIR PERSON
but I'll leave it.
The only amp I ever owned that had a 100% value increase in the
power supply filters sounded like shit until it was put back
to closer to design specs.
YMMV
Phil S.
"Dave Curtis" <dbaudiot...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:s8m2k2domtpsinetv...@4ax.com...
...ayup...and I might add that today's manufacturing technology is sooooo
much better than it was 40 years ago, even so-called "cheap caps" from
Taiwan and probably superior to OEM. I'd like to know if anyone has
objective test data on whether Illinois caps are OK or not. What? No data?
Thought so. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
What is important is that they are fresh. Buy them from someone who moves
lots of inventory.
Phil
Po' excuse 4 me
>...ayup...and I might add that today's manufacturing technology is sooooo
>much better than it was 40 years ago, even so-called "cheap caps" from
>Taiwan and probably superior to OEM. I'd like to know if anyone has
>objective test data on whether Illinois caps are OK or not. What? No data?
>Thought so. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
Somebody AT LAST got it. Back in da OLDFARTDAYS(.com) we had surplus
bins of leftover radio parts. What U see iz what they get/got.
..just 4 da girlz, and cigarettes.. (sorry..personal song pun)
80% of the 'MoJo' in today's amp world was built on what was
there, local, and cheap. US/UK (UsUk?) it did not matter.
Even when I was in gear, there was only what was in 'stock'..
@ day, I can get any part made at ANY spec at said $$ point..
U can too. Sound costs $$$. U want MoJo, give me plastic 1st.
*IF* the right $$ is spent, yesterday would mean nothing..
- zero. Even less then zero. SS/TUBE/HYBRID Don't matter.
I got some NASTY SS plans..
and I'll be on foot at NAMM in my BB/Lounge T-Shirt.
Stop by..say hello. Win free prizes.
JJTj
On Topic
I've read where G. Weber pointedly disses Illinois caps. What would his
motivation be?!
On Topic
Mike Schway
I'd like to know if anyone has
> objective test data on whether Illinois caps are OK or not. What? No data?
> Thought so. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
>
Hey, Phil (and Mykey, JJ, Rich and others):
I did some testing today. Sorry, not ear testing, just some carefully
obtained numbers:
Materials:
>From my own stock, less than a year old: 6 each Illinois 100uF/350V,
Sprague 100uF/350V, Illinois 22uF/500V (sorry, only had 4 of these in
stock), and Sprague 20uF/500V. As far as I know, they came from only
one mfr lot each. Who knows what would happen if I took samples from
different manufacturing batches.
Method: Measured value, ESR and Leakage (at rated V) using a Sencore
LC103. Leakage measurement was obtained 25sec after start of test
(nearly all electrolytics will show initially high leakage, which
decreases over time).
Results: (means plus/minus standard deviation for 6 samples)
Value:
Sprague 100/350 107.9 +/- 4.5
Illinois 100/350 100.9 +/- 2.4
Sprague 20/500 23.3 +/- 0.8
Illinois 22/500 23.7 +/- 0.2 (note: only 4 of these were
tested)
ESR (ohms)
Sprague 100/350 0.78 +/- 0.10
Illinois 100/350) 0.33 +/- 0.18
Sprague 20/500 1.25 +/- 0.24
Illinois 22/500 3.23 +/- 0.15
Leakage (uA) (note: since leakage measurement generally drifts
downwards with time of test, I chose an arbitrary time of 25 seconds.
All values would've been lower if test was taken over a 1 minute
period). All values are "OK" as far as acceptability for use in new
equipment.
Sprague 100/350 677 +/- 22
Illinois 100/350 490 +/- 129
Sprague 20/500 242 +/- 61
Illinois 22/500 557 +/- 56
So what does this mean?
Overall, both manufacturers make caps which (at least according to
these tests) are suitable for use in newly manufactured equipment. No
duds were found. In fact when I measured "dialectric absorption" (a
measurement related to the ability of a cap to recharge itself on its
own...after discharge and removal of supply), ALL caps measured a
healthy scant 4%.
In general, the Illinois caps are made to tighter tolerances. Read and
weep! Check the standard deviations for all of the tests: Illinois
caps generally had lower S/Ds. Values were closer to their rated
values. Still, both mfr's caps are HUGELY more precise than what was
available 35 years ago where a tolerance of -50%/+75% was not uncommon.
Illinois' average tested at an amazing 1% for the 100uF and 12% for
the 22uF, Sprague's was 8% for the 100uF and 16% for the 20uF.
ESR for the 100uF was significantly lower for the Illinois, but Sprague
had the edge for the 22 (20) uF cap. In all cases, the values fell
within acceptable limits.
These tests are obviously non-musical. I didn't listen to 24 filter
caps, just took some reliable and relevant numbers. Also, there's no
indication on what will happen after 10 years in service (anybody want
to do THAT test?) :-)
But hopefully, this will put to rest the myth that Illinois caps are
unsuitable crap. At least according to what I can measure, they're as
good if not better than the Spragues (at least at the 100uf/350V
value). Admittedly, ESR and leakage were higher for the Illinois than
Sprague at 22uF, but they're still within normal limits of
acceptability.
That said, I still prefer the Spragues for applications where lead
length and strength are important, and Illinois where space is at a
premium.
--Mike
Harrison Ford Prefect
...
> I did some testing today. Sorry, not ear testing, just some carefully
> obtained numbers:
Jim Dandy to the rescue!
Thanks, Mike, great stuff.
I added this to the AGA site. I put
it under "events". Not your typical "event",
but it seemed to fit best there.
Rich Koerner
Thanks Mike.
Me, I'm a Sprague guy from way back, and never had a reason to go with another brand for the tube
amps.
I can't stand those THIN leads on the other brands. Resistors and caps included.
BTW, you forgot the finger test.
Use the back of your finger to take their temperatures.
Works for me, when you want to get a feel for anyone with leakage in the group.
On Topic
save.
Po' excuse 4 me
>Me, I'm a Sprague guy from way back, and never had a reason to go with another brand for the tube
>amps.
My local stocker was (still there) Stark Electronics, and they had
(God Bless them) DRAWERS of Orange drop, or Silver Mica pf caps,
and TONS of (really, a candy shop) ECG resistors, from 1/4 wt to 300wt
heat sink. I was lucky. Then, U bring me ya amp, it needed screen
resistors, the only thing I HAD AVAILABLE were compact 10 wt 1% FP.
..cost me $1 each. Never saw the problem again...
WALLS of ECG replacement transistors. I rolled joints on my ECG
(now NTE) sub book for YEARS. I fixed ya Vox Venue (chuckle)
it got fixed. Over kill. RK, you understand what I mean.
>I can't stand those THIN leads on the other brands. Resistors and caps included.
When I worked at the US Vox 'company' (Pr1mo, M/Mass.), they were on the
last legs. They imported Riverhead basses, Track drums, 'Quest' guitars,
and...VOX. I get a call from Vox UK that U2 needs a Vox tech. Would I
leave my job early (EAW at the time) and drive to NJ and fix his amp..
"...um, yeah, well..sure.."
I start my old Ford with no f/brakes to speak of, leave Worcester, drive
to E/R NJ. At the gate, are my 5 passes, and my name spelled correctly.
I have my Anvil case with enough to rebuild most any AC30, save trans,
and there it is..ripp'ed grill cloth and all. Bluntly, it has 3 rusted
paper clips wedged between the chassis n cab, I place everything aside
to re-build it..p/clips n all. No power to the screens, it was obv,
and I look at some loser's "..repair job..".. 1/4 wt screen resistors..
Replaced 'em with 10wt 1% FP, amp powers right up. NOS tubes, brown'ed bad..
Simple check also showed a few bad s/joints. Edge was over my shoulder
every sec..quiet, but watching. Bono stopped by twice to see the progress.
WHAT does this have to do with the above spew?..simple..
The connection to said part is only as strong as the weakest link,
from wire/lead gauge to s/joints. These 1/4 wts were mere burnt ashes..
Edge hands me a few C notes out of his own pocket after playing with it
for about 30 mins, he was so happy it went so fast. Vox UK was awesome.
See below for more about that night, if ya need a good laugh..
>BTW, you forgot the finger test.
>
>Use the back of your finger to take their temperatures.
Folks get scars there... Works every time...
>Works for me, when you want to get a feel for anyone with leakage in the group.
Great. I try to leak as little as possible..
JJTj
ok, here's the rest of the night.
I'm headed home, I'm tired, and saw U2 in Boston just days ago,
but I have these passes. In E/R N.J, at that time, you could scalp
tickets in a sep area, away from the gate. I go there, try to pimp
the passes..gas fare home, bar bill, whatever. NO ONE believed they
were real. $20 each. I then decide to just GIVE them away...no dice.
..they even had axxcessabilityMoJo for the party after the show..
I look for the Babes hanging outside the doors, and offer them for
FREE. Nope. I find the ugly women, nope. Finally I find 2 girls
pissed cause they had no tickets. I hand them the passes, nope,
they think I'm weird..and they didn't even KNOW me.. so I say "follow me"
and we go to the back door, I remove the back of the passes, press them
on the (neat, firm) breast of each (of age :>) girl, and shove them thru
the door, as the door guy says "..enter..". Snapped a pix of their joy
when they saw the light. Where are they today? I still got 2 un-used
passes from those nights. Vox UK made it all happen. Good times..
Unlike the night in Boston when Louie puked pancakes on the Kink's bass player..
no...there's NO book in the making... hehehehehehe
...It is history in the making...
......and it's in the Key of ' A '..
...what more could any civilized man want...
Rich Koerner
Po' excuse 4 me wrote:
>
LOL, I can dig it.
Those were the days.
Po' excuse 4 me
>LOL, I can dig it.
>Those were the days.
Those who have been there, know ya can't make this shit up..
The book will also include stories from other people, but
when I state 'me' here..I mean...me... Anyway...pancakes..
Boston Music Hall, long ago, the Kinks are playing. It's a
Don Law production (one great un-sung hero) so I make a call,
get 5 passes. IF Don or his people ever see this, I bow to
his years of handing me backstage passes when he fucking KNEW
I was BS'ing his production company to get them. Thank You, Sir.
...anyway... I drive to Boston, go to the counter, there they
are (my name mis-spelled, but the agent knew me). I drive home.
Show is 9'ish. Around 3, we get together to...get stoned...
I'll change the names to protect the guilty. Jackie n Dean
are going with a lady friend n me. Dean asks if his friend
Louie can come. I know Louie, sure, he's cool. All set....
Anyway. We meet at Dean's, and Louie is making Pancakes. Wheat
tree hugging ugly looking things. Louie is also rolling Gold Weed.
...it was THAT long ago... REAL OldFartDays (.com)
We're ignited, and he's pouring the weed in the pancake batter,
making these flapjacks. He's eating them all..maybe 12-15+ of 'em.
I tried a bite...yuck-oie...
He's in THC PanCake never never world by the time we're standing
in the (very small) back door of the Boston M/Hall, waiting for
the BAND to go in 1st. Louie is in the doorway, green to the gills
on 'pancakes', and the Kinks come in. The guy (whom we later saw to
be the bass player) looked at Louie..and said THESE regretted words...:
"..oui, are you ok..?.."
To which, Louie replies...and I quote:
"..no..I'm OD'ing on pancakes.."
to which Louie added, in honest glory.. :
"...SSSSS-PPPPP-EEEEE-WWWWW..." P/Vomit of everything he ate..
The guy ducked in time or it would of hit his face, but it hit his
jacket, back, shoes, and Bass case. I'm looking past them and
Ray Davis is on the floor laughing so hard I started to laugh too.
We took Louie outside, and later we ALL got backstage again, and
the bass player (can't remember who it was, sorry) AGAIN asked
Louie if he was OK, and told him "..it happens all the time.."
Funny thing is, I saw the B/Player yrs later, and he reminded ME about it.
JJTj
I am frolicsome, I am easy,
Good tempered and free,
And I don't give a single pin' me boys
What the world thinks of me.
Phil S
I'm on the road posting via freakin' Google. Mike, the last thing I
expected was for someone to take me so seriously. I had no real idea
what tests would show. It's just fabulous what you did. Thanks.
Phil
Mike Schway
Rich Koerner <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote:
> BTW, you forgot the finger test.
>
> Use the back of your finger to take their temperatures.
>
> Works for me, when you want to get a feel for anyone with leakage in the
> group.
I've done that with old caps, sure. Gotta admit, the finger is cheaper
than my AutoZ..
I once (and once only) tried it to determine the semi-leaky transistor
in a power amp (silly me!). Take the temp of some TO3s, and with the
other hand, compare to the outputs on the opposite alternation. Of
course that meant 100+VDC (with MUCH higher filtration than a tube amp)
across the chest. Yowwwie!
J.P.
wrote:
Anyone using one of those laser temp gadgets? My son traded me for one
of those but I haven't tested it yet. I figured it might be good for
objects you don't want to touch with probe or hand - like tube glass,
ect. Not sure how accurate it is but I suppose I might need to check
it with my digital BBQ thermometer one of these days. Might be a
useful tool. An overheated component could be a fast way to get to a
bad circuit. J.P.
Dave Curtis
They are *way* too useful.
-Dave
J.P.
Not sure I get your meaning
CompUser
> >Anyone using one of those laser temp gadgets? My son traded me for one
> >of those but I haven't tested it yet. I figured it might be good for
> >objects you don't want to touch with probe or hand - like tube glass,
> >ect. Not sure how accurate it is but I suppose I might need to check
> >it with my digital BBQ thermometer one of these days. Might be a
> >useful tool. An overheated component could be a fast way to get to a
> >bad circuit. J.P.
>
> They are *way* too useful.
They are handy for all sorts of stuff.
Harbor Freight now sells their pistol-grip, laser
aimed model for $39. The range on the package
was less than the unit measured, I've gotten
readings close to 1200*F.
Rich Koerner
I've been using one of these for years.
http://www.check-it-electronics.com/chec0316digt.html
I have the air probe, and liquid sensor for it too.
Tell Dick, I said hello.
J.P.
wrote:
This is the one I got. I thought it might be a good idea to not have
to touch components to test them. Keeps me from getting shocked. I
just have to determine if it is accurate. With this, I could possibly
just let the amp warm up and check every component in it for excessive
temp.... J.P.
http://www.wfrfire.com/website/front/index.htm?/website/rescue/heatrack/scotch999.htm&front
PMG
"CompUser" <Nooo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:MPG.1faf00af4...@news.tds.net...
My laser-iron was useful in neutering myself!
J.P.
jh
On Topic schrieb:
Hi marc,
there might be more than one motivation to do that
- Gerald was/is running an amp business, which depends on on elitist
boutique
status. The Kendricks have to be ahead from the "regular" amps, so you
have
to market some features. One of them might be that he propagated *not*
to
use the cheap, ceasy to obtain ICs. Perhaps especially because they
were
used in the 59´ reissues and all other recent production amps from
Fender.
- He might have felt, that a small cap (physical size) can´t compete
with a
big one. The Atoms are the descendants of the old mallories. They
*are* old
technique an that´s propably also the reason, why sprague is intending
to
seize production of them. They have a temperature rating which is
lower than
other caps...
- Rich K does not like the "whimpy" (short and thin) wires on the newer
production caps. That´s a valid point. Perhaps Mr Weber was also
pissed by
that fact..
just my 2 cts
Jochen
Phil S.
"jh" <jh-audio...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:45486ABC...@t-online.de...
>
<snip>
> technique an that愀 propably also the reason, why sprague is intending
> to
> seize production of them.
>
> Jochen
Jochen,
How I wish I could have any degree of fluency in another language! I know
English is a second language for you and you are amazing. I thought you'd
like to know, the word needed here is "cease" not "seize". It can be
confusing. Cease means to stop. Seize is what happens to your car engine
when you run it without motor oil.
Regards,
Phil
On Topic
Then F&T it is :-)
jh
"Phil S." schrieb:
Hi Phil,
thank you very much for that compliment and also for the correction. Of
course
i meant "cease" :-)
I扉e been learning your language for about 30 years now, and i扉e always
liked
it. Reading and posting, the transcription of lyrics also gives some
practice.
But it愀 still my second language, so the danger of unintended offense
is still there...
There was a thread in RAT a few years ago, where a german guy posted
unaccurate
info; he and one guy from the US started a nice discussion, he saw his
mistake and tried to apologize. Then the things went amok...
The poor guy wrote "please apologize.." I would never expect anything
offensive
there. It愀 simply one direct translation of the word "entschuldigen Sie
bitte".
The guy wrote in (IMHO) pretty good english
The interpretation of other guy was exactly the other way round. He
yelled "why
should *I* apologize for *your* mistake?" It simply went through the
roof. It
took a few days and the help of other RATs to calm the waves. ...
thanks again
regards
Jochen