V3 Splitter?
DM
YCS50.
V1 - clean channel, V2 - gain channel and V3- splitter?
Novice here, what does splitter do again :D
WB
> Novice here, what does splitter do again :D
Splits.
adminattubezone.net
Splits the signal between the two output tubes (or between one bank
of output tubes and the other if there's more than 2 outout tubes)
Phil Allison
"DM"
** The term is short for "phase splitter".
There are several kinds but all do the same job of providing normal and
reverse phase signals for pairs of output tubes operating in push pull.
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/split.htm
Probably the "Schmidt" is most often seen in guitar amps.
..... Phil
DM
Awesome! thanks for the info. So what's a good preamp tubes to use as
for splitter?
Jim
The PI splitter hole is not as critical as the gain stages. In a hifi
situation, you'd want one that's not too far off of a match. But with
guitar, I wouldn't be too concerned about a little asymmetry.
Any quality tube that isn't highly microphonic will work. Even tubes
that are microphonic in a gain hole will often work fine in the PI
splitter hole. In other words, use your third best tube here.
I use quality US, German and British tubes everywhere in my amps,
because I have them. But this is one application where you might not
hear the difference.
A lot of guys are preferring the Tung Sol 12AX7 reissue tube. Check
them out at http://www.tubedepot.com
DM
I e-mailed traynor support and they mentioned I cannot use a non-
12ax7 pre's on my Traynor YCS50(?)
they also mentioned that the Amp does it self bias(?) I don't have to
bias if I change the power tubes..
So I can just pull the old Sovtek 5881's and put a 6L/EL34 group
powert tubes!?
DM
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:15:33 -0500, New B. <new...@bix.nex> wrote:
> >On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:37:51 -0700 (PDT), DM <Bols...@netzero.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>On Jun 10, 9:53 am, Jim <inse@ttle> wrote:
> >>> On 6/9/2010 11:31 PM, DM wrote:
>
> >>> > On Jun 9, 7:52 pm, "adminattubezone.net"<ad...@tubezone.net> wrote:
> >>> >> On Jun 9, 8:27 pm, DM<Bols...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> >>> >>> Hey Amp Guru's!! Tryin' to change the preamp tubes on my Traynor
> >>> >>> YCS50.
>
> >>> >>> Novice here, what does splitter do again :D
>
> >>> >> Splits the signal between the two output tubes (or between one bank
> >>> >> of output tubes and the other if there's more than 2 outout tubes)
>
> >>> > Awesome! thanks for the info. So what's a good preamp tubes to use as
> >>> > for splitter?
>
> >>> The PI splitter hole is not as critical as the gain stages. In a hifi
> >>> situation, you'd want one that's not too far off of a match. But with
> >>> guitar, I wouldn't be too concerned about a little asymmetry.
>
> >>> Any quality tube that isn't highly microphonic will work. Even tubes
> >>> that are microphonic in a gain hole will often work fine in the PI
> >>> splitter hole. In other words, use your third best tube here.
>
> >>> I use quality US, German and British tubes everywhere in my amps,
> >>> because I have them. But this is one application where you might not
> >>> hear the difference.
>
> >>> A lot of guys are preferring the Tung Sol 12AX7 reissue tube. Check
> >>> them out athttp://www.tubedepot.com
>
> >>I e-mailed traynor support and they mentioned I cannot use a non-
> >>12ax7 pre's on my Traynor YCS50(?)
> >>they also mentioned that the Amp does it self bias(?) I don't have to
> >>bias if I change the power tubes..
> >>So I can just pull the old Sovtek 5881's and put a 6L/EL34 group
> >>powert tubes!?
>
>
> >The YCS50H runs the EL34s
>
> >YCS50 appears to run 6L6s
> >Betting that the 6L6GC may be your best bet.
>
> >There also appears to be a bias trim pot.
>
> >Just glanced through the documentation, a closer read
> >may reveal more info.
>
> >The 'splitter' is commonly referred to as the Phase Inverter (PI)
> >You want a 'balanced' tube here.
>
> OK on further reading it looks like the combo ships with 5881 (6L6)
> and the head ships with EL34s
>
> You can run either type but you must set the bias.
> The bias test points look very easy to access.
>
> But according to:http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/manuals/omycs50-50h-90.pdf
> (page 5)
>
> Replacement Tube Selection & Bias**
> These YCS amplifiers come from the factory equipped with matched 5881
> (YCS50H uses matched EL34 output tubes) output tubes. The circuitry
> has been designed to accommodate any type of EL34/6CA7 as well as any
> type of 6L6/5881 output tubes (as long as the four, or two, output
> tubes are of a matching type). The amplifier has also been equipped
> with bias sensing points for each of the output tubes as well as a
> recessed bias adjustment trim pot that can all be accessed without
> removing the chassis from the box. This makes tube replacement quick
> and easy.
> **We recommend adjusting the zero signal bias to +75 mV +/-10mV DC at
> each of the test points. Bias adjustment should be done with the
> amplifier configuration in the 50 Watt mode (YCS50) or 90 Watt mode
> (YCS90). Please refer servicing to qualified personnel.
That's what the manual says.. I emailed Traynor and ask them about
changing the power tubes if they have a
video that shows how to dot it. and here's what they told me > The
YCS50 is self biasing so the unit will rebias itself. <
Has anyone know if this is true? I'm confused.
Phil Allison
"DM"
>
> Replacement Tube Selection & Bias**
> These YCS amplifiers come from the factory equipped with matched 5881
> (YCS50H uses matched EL34 output tubes) output tubes. The circuitry
> has been designed to accommodate any type of EL34/6CA7 as well as any
> type of 6L6/5881 output tubes (as long as the four, or two, output
> tubes are of a matching type). The amplifier has also been equipped
> with bias sensing points for each of the output tubes as well as a
> recessed bias adjustment trim pot that can all be accessed without
> removing the chassis from the box. This makes tube replacement quick
> and easy.
> **We recommend adjusting the zero signal bias to +75 mV +/-10mV DC at
> each of the test points. Bias adjustment should be done with the
> amplifier configuration in the 50 Watt mode (YCS50) or 90 Watt mode
> (YCS90). Please refer servicing to qualified personnel.
That's what the manual says.. I emailed Traynor and ask them about
changing the power tubes if they have a
video that shows how to dot it. and here's what they told me > The
YCS50 is self biasing so the unit will rebias itself. <
Has anyone know if this is true? I'm confused.
** You are dealing with a *fucking idiot* at Yorkville - nothing new there.
The Traynor amp is NOT self biasing !!!!!!!!!!
It however has * DO IT YOURSELF * biasing, which requires a test meter
to carry out.
The change from EL34 to 5881 when going from the head version to the combo
version is very odd, sounds like EL34s ( being taller) would simply not fit
into the chassis space in the combo.
How dopey.
..... Phil
DM
Thanks! I had still have the e-mail and I'm gonna forward that to
there corporate office and complain about that Jack-Ass!
jh
SNIP
> Just glanced through the documentation, a closer read
> may reveal more info.
>
> The 'splitter' is commonly referred to as the Phase Inverter (PI)
> You want a 'balanced' tube here.
Why?
"balanced tubes" are SNAKE OIL
Jochen
White Spirit
>> Awesome! thanks for the info. So what's a good preamp tubes to use as
>> for splitter?
> The PI splitter hole is not as critical as the gain stages. In a hifi
> situation, you'd want one that's not too far off of a match. But with
> guitar, I wouldn't be too concerned about a little asymmetry.
I have found one amplifier where the phase inverter has a significant
effect on the sound: my Marshall DSL-50. Substituting a JJ (which I
normally dislike rather intensely) for the EH 12AX7s that I tend to
favour opened up the sound somewhat and introduced a nice amount of
chime, particularly when coupled with the neck pickup. The clarity of
sound under heavy distortion was improved as well.
Lord Valve
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:22:54 +0200, jh <j...@org.de> wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >SNIP
> >
> >
> >> Just glanced through the documentation, a closer read
> >> may reveal more info.
> >>
> >> The 'splitter' is commonly referred to as the Phase Inverter (PI)
> >> You want a 'balanced' tube here.
> >
> >Why?
> >
> >"balanced tubes" are SNAKE OIL
> >
> >Jochen
>
> Strongly Disagree, for the PI.
> And I do mean for voltage, current, and transconductance.
>
> Read this:
> "The phase inverter - The most important tube in your amp?"
> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
>
> Link is from the bottom of this page, which is also a good read:
> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/pastinfo.html
It's bullshit.
Miles Rose works for Groove Tubes - need I say more?
Lord Valve
Expert (please obsess)
Phil Allison
"New B."
>
>>> "The phase inverter - The most important tube in your amp?"
>>> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
>>>
>>
>>Miles Rose works for Groove Tubes - need I say more?
>>
>
>
> Is the electronic evaluation, (watts, gain, voltage, current,
> transconductance, etc..) all BS ?
** What is being claimed by the obviously semi-literate author is utter
bullshit.
Dressing it up with irrelevant numbers is just a ploy to baffle fools.
> Without other real or true information to go on, it at least
> sounded reasonable.
** Pseudo technical bullshit always sounds " reasonable" to the uninformed.
Like any well constructed lie, it seems more plausible than the truth.
.... Phil
Stephen Cowell
> Like any well constructed lie, it seems more plausible than the truth.
At this point it's good to point out
that Fender used unbalanced PI plate
resistors... on purpose.
__
Steve
.
Phil Allison
"Stephen Cowell"
> At this point it's good to point out
> that Fender used unbalanced PI plate
> resistors... on purpose.
** Got no relevance to anything I or others have posted.
.... Phil
jh
>
> So you contend that a "balanced" triode in the PI slot
> makes no audible difference ?
>
Yes
> It makes no difference in the Push/Pull function
> of the output tubes ? In either Class A or a/B ?
>
NO
> Does it make any difference at all in the voltage swings ?
In the PI - NOT
In the PP Power stage - YES
The standard PI is not a push pull stage. It "creates" the push pull
signal. It tends to level out some of the imbalance of the tube itself.
>
> Then just what is the truth ?
Phil Allison
"New Bullshit = Same as the Old Bullshit"
>
>>** Got no relevance to anything I or others have posted.
>
> Why ?
** Try proving there is any - fuckhead.
.... Phil
Phil Allison
"New Bullshit = Same as the Old Bullshit "
>>> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
** What is being claimed by the obviously semi-literate author is utter
bullshit.
Dressing it up with irrelevant numbers is just a ploy to baffle fools.
> Without other real or true information to go on, it at least
> sounded reasonable.
** Pseudo technical bullshit always sounds " reasonable" to the uninformed.
Like any well constructed lie, it seems more plausible than the truth.
And don't fools like YOU just lap it up.
.... Phil
jh
>
> It seems to me, (maybe I'm weird), that if someone sez:
>
> "Oh, That's BS !!"
>
> .... without further explanation as to 'why' certain statements
> are bogus, those types of replies are just another waste of electrons.
>
> Why is it so difficult for "those in the know" to reveal the *truth* ?
>
> Stating facts can only dispel mythical statements perpetuated
> on us less educated souls. Hence, the confusion prevails.
>
> My 0.02
>
> (/rant)
with all due respect for your rant, but in this thread, IIRC you were
the one to bring up the "theory" of the balanced tube and you are also
the one who can't really backup it.
As I already wrote, the typical Phase Inverter (long tail, or
"schmitt-type") is not a push pull stage. It amplifies the difference of
the initial signal and the grid input of the second stage and brings it
out again at the two plates - one in phase, one out of phase.
There is a lot of local negative feedback (non bypassed cathode R AND
the tail) Although both halves of the tube see the same driving force,
the result is not 100% balanced anyway.
But due to the local feedback, the imbalance of the 2 tube halves is
damped away anyway. The design makes it. Deterioration of the tube is
also not a real issue.
I'd suggest to read the article about the PI on randall aikens site. It
covers a lot of it better than we can explain it here.
http://www.aikenamps.com/LongTailPairDesign.htm
Jochen
jh
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 11:19:45 -0500, Greasehorse
> <greas...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1st page - block diagram shows 5881's...
>
> Yes, but am I correct in information fed to me that
> real 5881's are as rare as hens teeth ?
>
> US Military version of 6L6 ?
> Lower plate voltage, higher current draw, comparable transconductance,
> is what is on the 'net. True or False ?
>
> Am just trying to learn here.
>
> My questions may seem stupid to those
> "in the know"; but how else can one learn ?
>
> Am able to read a book, any recommendations ?
>
>
> Thanks for your input.
The "5881" Yorkville refers to is most propably the russian 6P3C-E.
This tube has been succesfully marketed by Sovtek/Mike Matthews as
"5881/6L6WGC" or "5881WXT" for the last two decades.
This is my bet
regards
Jochen
Jim
If you had one triode measuring 600, and the other measuring 1400, would
it make a difference? Or are you saying that the gain inherent in the
PI stage is such that it really doesn't matter at all?
I know this is a controversial subject, and my Q is sincere, not trying
to be sarcastic.
I know that the toob audiophools insist on balanced PI stages.
I'll generally through one in that is fairly balanced, because I have
many to choose from. Maybe I should compare my closest balanced tube to
my worst balanced to see if I can hear anything.
But I already said that with guitar, an asymmetrical output may even
sound "good."
jh
Hi Jim,
I'll perform a simple test with a 12DW7 in my JTM45. This tube should be
imbalanced enough. I'll report back.
regards
Jochen
jh
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 07:48:48 +0200, jh <j...@org.de> wrote:
>
>>> I know this is a controversial subject, and my Q is sincere, not trying
>>> to be sarcastic.
>>>
>>> I know that the toob audiophools insist on balanced PI stages.
>>>
>>> I'll generally through one in that is fairly balanced, because I have
>>> many to choose from. Maybe I should compare my closest balanced tube to
>>> my worst balanced to see if I can hear anything.
>>>
>>> But I already said that with guitar, an asymmetrical output may even
>>> sound "good."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Then just what is the truth ?
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I'll perform a simple test with a 12DW7 in my JTM45. This tube should be
>> imbalanced enough. I'll report back.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Jochen
>
>
exactly.
>
> Just don't get it. Am just a toob youngster.
>
> If a difference is electronically measurable, shouldn't it
> be audible ? at least faintly, or to the trained ear ?
>
> Why is there so much disagreement ?
>
> Guessing I'm just too stoopid to understand.
>
jh
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:06:55 +0200, jh <j...@org.de> wrote:
>
>>> Aren't the triodes in a 12DW7/ECC832 different on purpose ?
>>
>> exactly.
>
>
>
> It's like pulling hens teeth to get some true scientific information
> from "those in the know".
>
> Why is that ?
>
> Just don't understand that type of mind set.
>
> What am I missing here blokes ?
??
you already posted the whole "information"
the 12DW7 has one system like a 12AX7 and one that is so far off, that
it's a perfect candidate for this test.
Nothing more, nothing less.
jh
Hi Jim,
I performed a first test in my JTM45RI woth a 12DW7 in the PI slot.
very very interesting...
As expected the static test went completely out of the window.
The AU section (2) swamps the bias point.
AX DW
B+: 293 289
Plate 1: 191 229
Plate 2: 193 98
Cathode: 32.6 42.3
Top of tail: 31.5 40.9
Bottom of tail: 8.7 11.5
Scoping the whole thing brings up the following results:
The gain of the PI is affected in a serious manner. The 12DW7 brings out
almost exactly half the swing of the 12AX7 - driven with the same signal.
The test was conducted with the KT66 stage pushed slightly into clipping
with the 12DW7 (1); serious clipping with the AX (2). Rolled volume back
to the same swing (3)
But:
The symmetry of the PI with the 12DW7 (1) was almost exactly the same
compared to the "rolled back" setting of the 12AX7 PI (3). I did not
make a real listening test, but i don't expect it to be that different.
My first conclusion is fairly simple:
The PI and its overall gain characteristics affects the dynamic
behaviour - of course - it's a gain stage.
The "matching" of the systems does NOT affect the balance in any
significant way.
I would have expected at least a slight loss of balance with two systems
that are sooo different. It did not happen.
regards
Jochen
Tony Elka
New B. <new...@bix.nex> wrote:
> And yet you provide no other information.
>
> It's like pulling hens teeth to get some true scientific information
> from "those in the know".
>
> Why is that ?
>
> Just don't understand that type of mind set.
>
> What am I missing here blokes ?
You're dealing with some ill-mannered people with highly damaged
personalities.
It's not you, it's them.
They're called assholes.
Tony
RichL
news:shadowlane-E823D...@93-136-209-74.adsl.net.t-com.hr...
it's definitely not true of Jochen. And, in my humble estimation, he knows
his stuff.
"New B." got himself in a bit of a pickle by strutting stuff that, as it
turns out, he doesn't know. Jochen's been kinder in response than I would
have been.
jh
Hi Rich,
thanks for the kind words..
Jochen
White Spirit
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:22:15 +0100, White Spirit
> <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>> I have found one amplifier where the phase inverter has a significant
>> effect on the sound: my Marshall DSL-50. Substituting a JJ (which I
>> normally dislike rather intensely) for the EH 12AX7s that I tend to
>> favour opened up the sound somewhat and introduced a nice amount of
>> chime, particularly when coupled with the neck pickup. The clarity of
>> sound under heavy distortion was improved as well.
> Bad pi tube?
No; I have very many EH and JJ valves and they are all consistent.
White Spirit
> But you just said that the PI didn't matter !?!?
It has a negligible effect on the sound in most amplifiers in my
opinion. You can find out for yourself the effect of each position on
the quality of tone by exchanging different valves. It is safe to
perform this with preamp valves while the amplifier is switched on, but
never with power valves (their intense heat notwithstanding).
Some players like to take the time to try different valves in each
position until they reach what they perceive to be the optimum combination.
Dave Curtis
<wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>It is safe to
>perform this with preamp valves while the amplifier is switched on, but
>never with power valves (their intense heat notwithstanding).
Safe, but you want to put the amp in standby first, and you *can* pull
power tubes like this, too...
White Spirit
I have been told that preamp valves are 'hot pluggable'.
Morris Slutsky
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Jochen,
Amazing, you actually went and did an experiment. i guess that
settles things. I am curious if you do take the time to do a
listening test, whether there'd be an audible difference.
Tube wisdom sometimes is hard for me to get. I do admit that
different tubes do sound different, but I've mostly noticed that about
power tubes. And I do understand that the first tube needs to have
the least noise and microphonicity, because that's where the signal is
weakest and where there's the most gain ahead of it.
But somehow I wonder why the 'gain hole' is the big tube for overload
characteristics and the PI is negligible. It seems to me that, for
any properly designed amp, each stage has to be capable of fully
driving the next. So if you take a 'classic' non-MV amp and turn it
up and up and up, you'll overload the power tubes first - the PI must
be capable of driving them to full clean output in any proper design -
then you'll overload the PI - the previous stage being required to be
able to drive the PI to full output - and so on. The distortion
characteristics that you hear seem to be likely to come from the later
tubes more than the early ones, because the early tubes are the very
last to overload.
I have, myself, observed that PI overloading is a big factor in
sound. Does it depend on the particular TUBE? That I have not
experimented with and perhaps it will turn out to make no difference
if I do try.
My main amp has both a pre-PI and a post-PI volume control. The pre-
PI is what the standard 'master' MV would be, but I allow the
footswitch to lift up the ground terminal of it to give a 'loud'
button for solos and stuff, at least that was the design idea. The
post-PI MV is the standard stereo-pot design. There is a feedback
path, I understand that the post-PI MV will affect it and cause lower
damping at lower settings there, but basically, I have 2 controls to
play with.
And it is my observation that the amp with pre-PI on 10 and post-PI
on, say, 3, is much crunchier than with the pre-PI on 3 and the post-
PI on 10. The PI is overloading, it's doing something.
Maybe without a PPMV nobody would notice it because the power tubes
would clip first - but I do suspect that a lot of what people think of
as 'power tube saturation' may well be PI saturation.
None of this, of course, means that the particular choice of tube
would make a DIFFERENCE so long as they were in working order. that
would need a listening test to see!
RichL
news:hv4ehb$gf9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
You're welcome.
Stephen Cowell
> And it is my observation that the amp with pre-PI on 10 and post-PI
> on, say, 3, is much crunchier than with the pre-PI on 3 and the post-
> PI on 10. The PI is overloading, it's doing something.
Crunch is symmetrical clipping... something
you get from clipping the PI. Asymmetrical
clipping sounds like a Tube Screamer... dirt,
but with even harmonics still showing up.
Clip any other pre stage (except for a CF)
and get asymmetrical clipping.
__
Steve
.
jh
> not be much change ifany detectable
I will, the test is simple to perform, but I have to have the chance to
crank it up
Jochen
jh
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:34:54 +0200, jh <jh-audio...@t-online.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Am 12.06.2010 20:20, schrieb New B.:
>>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 11:19:45 -0500, Greasehorse
>>> <greas...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1st page - block diagram shows 5881's...
>>> Yes, but am I correct in information fed to me that
>>> real 5881's are as rare as hens teeth ?
>>>
>>> US Military version of 6L6 ?
>>> Lower plate voltage, higher current draw, comparable transconductance,
>>> is what is on the 'net. True or False ?
>>>
>>> Am just trying to learn here.
>>>
>>> My questions may seem stupid to those
>>> "in the know"; but how else can one learn ?
>>>
>>> Am able to read a book, any recommendations ?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input.
>> The "5881" Yorkville refers to is most propably the russian 6P3C-E.
>>
>> This tube has been succesfully marketed by Sovtek/Mike Matthews as
>> "5881/6L6WGC" or "5881WXT" for the last two decades.
>>
>> This is my bet
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Jochen
> Same spec - just different numbers or different tubes?
?
the 6P3C-E is more a 6l6GC than a "real" 5881.
I would not put a real 5881 into a recent amp that asks for one - unless
I had checked the environment before.
For example: 470V on the plates in a 6100 is a bit steep for an old
Tung-Sol. The Sovtek takes that with ease.
Better tube? No
Tougher tube ratings? Yes
White Spirit
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:23:27 +0100, White Spirit
> <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Bad pi tube?
>> No; I have very many EH and JJ valves and they are all consistent.
> And only one changes the tone?
No; there is a difference in tone depending on the brand of valve I use
in the PI slot, which is much greater than can be observed in any other
amplifier I have used.
Dave Curtis
<wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>On 14/06/2010 12:42, Dave Curtis wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:30:28 +0100, White Spirit
>> <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> It is safe to
>>> perform this with preamp valves while the amplifier is switched on, but
>>> never with power valves (their intense heat notwithstanding).
>
>> Safe, but you want to put the amp in standby first, and you *can* pull
>> power tubes like this, too...
>
>I have been told that preamp valves are 'hot pluggable'.
They are, but some will give very loud noises, regardless of control
settings.