Petition for Increased Education Spedning
Christos Dimitrakakis
IF you feel that the government should be spending more money on
education, that education is important for the future of the country and
perhaps that just spending on education always gives better returns than
spending or anything else, please visit
http://www.petitiononline.com/gr_edu/
Read the petition, sign it if you agree and tell about it to your friends.
--
Olethros
http://olethros.dmusic.com
http://www.idiap.ch/~dimitrak/main.html
tommy
> spending or anything else, please visit
What if 'anything else' is hospitals, pensions, less taxes, farmer
subsidies? Unless you convince people that education is a priority above
those and state it clearly, your wasting your time. In any case your
petition is wrong. It asserts that there should be more government funds for
ph D students. What is required is Greece's economy need to mirror that of
western Europe. For Greece to get that composition, we need to bankrupt all
small shops and tourists centres that employ low skilled labour. It also
needs to reduce the power of the unions. And help create large corporations
at the expense of mamma and pappa shops, that would finance the research and
create an industry. Just like in the west.
Because politicians do what the people want, the majority of whom haven't
finished public school, nor understand what a modern western economy is,
quite possible neither do you-Good Luck.
Christos Dimitrakakis
> > spending or anything else, please visit
>
> What if 'anything else' is hospitals, pensions, less taxes, farmer
> subsidies?
Most money is spent on building the Rio-Antirio bridge and the Athens 2004
infrastructure.
> petition is wrong. It asserts that there should be more government funds for
> ph D students.
Yes, currently you have to have a secondary source of income to be a PhD
student in Greece.
> western Europe. For Greece to get that composition, we need to bankrupt all
> small shops and tourists centres that employ low skilled labour.
Low-skilled labour is increasingly provided by immigrants. Small shops
tend to close down in a lot of towns, replaced by large supermarkets.
Unless that trend is reversed, low-skilled labour will always be paid
minimal wage in places like these.
As far as tourist centres are concerned, these are not as many as you
would like to think. The north mainland, where I come from, does not
really have any tourists. I would have to say the same for
mid-peloponesos, although the coast-tour is relatively popular. Most of
the mainland economy in fact does not depend on tourism at all.
> It also
> needs to reduce the power of the unions. And help create large corporations
> at the expense of mamma and pappa shops, that would finance the research and
> create an industry. Just like in the west.
>
You are confusing things. Why would a mama and papa shop need research in
the first place even if they had the money? Research is funded in
large-scale construction projects, such as the IC industry (I don't know
of any mama papa shop that fabricates ICs), the automotive industry (or
that makes cars) etc. mama and papa shops are limited to:
1) Service Industry
2) Retail
3) Small-scale fabrication
Manufacturers are not affected by these groups, nor are these groups
affected by manufacturers.
Anyway, mom'n'pop shops are already taken over by corps. Clothes shops
only sell clothes by multinational corporations. Grocery stores sell
groceries that are distributed through a nation-wide (or sometimes global)
network. THe same goes for the butchers. Animals are taken to particular
slaughterhouses for examination and afterwards there is a re-distribution.
Farmers also sell to centralized institutions which constitute a monopoly.
The seed they buy is also from a handful of large corporations. We are
already there. You just have not noticed. Things are much worse than you
would like to think. So, give education a chance. It is fucking worth it.
If you are clueless you cannot fight for your rights.
Also, education does not have to be related directly to industry. The UK
is a bad example of linking education to industry. Ireland is a better
model.
This is not just related to research. Research is a very small
percentage of the total education budget. More money needs to be paid to
teachers, so that more people would be motivated to actually *become*
teachers. People need to be taught better in the public schools, because
unfortunately most 18-year-olds are incredibly ignorant.
> Because politicians do what the people want, the majority of whom haven't
> finished public school, nor understand what a modern western economy is,
> quite possible neither do you-Good Luck.
>
Again, economy does not have much to do with education. You mention
hospitals. Sure, we can build hospitals. How are they going to be used?
Don't we need to properly educate those doctors that are going to be
working in the hospitals? Don't we need to attract medical experts to work
in this country?
A final question. I do not understand your point. Why are you against
spending more money on education?
Because the money would be taken from other, more important needs? It
could be just as well taken from less important projects.
You also say that increased research funding means the closing down of the
mama and papa shops. I do not see the point, as the industry that provides
funds can do so without actually having a retail presence in the country.
(For example, IBM has a research facility in Athens, where they
investigate hi-frequency communication systems). Or they could have a
simple development presence (For example, ATMEL Corp has a development
facility in Patra, where they design software/hardware for Bluetooth &
802.11 related technology). As for mama and papa shops.. taking the tech
example, if you have a tiny little company that creates a niche
application related to say, encrypted communication.. who are you going to
sell it to? THe public? No, you are going to license it to one of the
corporations. Just please give me ONE link between mama and papa shops and
corporations (apart from RETAIL CHAINS, which have nothing to do with
education, research or development anyway. They are just merchants)
You also say that because of the high need for low-skilled labourers and
the importance of tourism, that well-educated citizens are not necessary.
Again, you have to stop thinking of citizens as consumers and labourers.
We are all supposed to be citizens. We have the right to be educated, so
that we can make informed decisions. Education should not be restricted to
the elite. If you want to be a low-skilled labourer, that has to be a
choice, not something forced upon you. Again, I must remind you that
low-skill labour is increasingly provided by immigrants and that tourism
is in great decline (while in some areas it never existed anyway).
Man, I guess you'd rather spend money on buying missiles so that we can
blow something up instead.
tommy
> the importance of tourism, that well-educated citizens are not necessary.
I presented the exact opposite opinion. I am saying Greece is structured
this way. And education will remain a low priority while Greece is
structured this way. Read my initial post again if you desire an honest
debate.
Christos Dimitrakakis
statement now is how I understood it though. And my point remains that
Greece is not really structured this way. Some parts of Greece are. In any
case, if education remains a low priority Greece will remain as it is. It
is a vicious circle as far as I am concerned.
tommy
are 25% of the workforce. If people like you who have an interest in
promoting higher education, cannot bring yourself to restructure the
economy, so these small one man employed companies must slowly go, then the
vicious cycle will remain. The only jobs offered in our lifetime in Greece
will be low skilled jobs. There is a conflict between long term interests
verses short term comfort.
Lucky Greeks didn't think that way during the 50-70s, otherwise we would all
still be farmers (like our father-grandather was). This conservatism arose
in the 80s.
"Christos Dimitrakakis" <oleth...@oohay.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.0302060053100.10339-100000@barasson...
Christos Dimitrakakis
> are 25% of the workforce. If people like you who have an interest in
> promoting higher education, cannot bring yourself to restructure the
> economy,
Did I ever say I did not want the economy restructured? I know a lot of
people that are trying to strike it off on their own. I know a lot of
small business that succeed. Also a lot that fail. I don't want to lose
the small jobs that already exist, just add more 'small' jobs for people
that go through higher education. It is possible and I know some that
actually had a small business in Greece. It is quite profitable, and the
risks are the same, whether you are an artisan, you own a bar, you are a
merchant, a freelance civil engineer, a painter, or if you write software
for niche markets. Small business are good for all those areas where
corporations cannot ofter the individual attention that a local talent
can. And there are A LOT of those.
The problem is mostly that the government only considers retailers as
small jobs. Pleeeeease. There are so many people that might be doing
much more creative work apart from merely selling stuff that other people
make.
Oh and I think I've completely lost the thread of this discussion.
tommy
> risks are the same, whether you are an artisan, you own a bar, you are a
> merchant, a freelance civil engineer, a painter, or if you write software
> for niche markets. Small business are good for all those areas where
> corporations cannot ofter the individual attention that a local talent
> can. And there are A LOT of those.
>
I agree there are small software companies. But still you need to work in a
large company for a few years, gain experience, knowledge and an
understanding of your market before your strike it alone.
> The problem is mostly that the government only considers retailers as
> small jobs. Pleeeeease. There are so many people that might be doing
> much more creative work apart from merely selling stuff that other people
> make.
The government should not interfere in the economy. It has and look at the
mess Greece is in. A government will naturally supports those retailers
because they have the votes. It will always support unproductive industry
and keep the country backwards. As a result competitive industries are
discriminated against.
>
> Oh and I think I've completely lost the thread of this discussion.
>
>
That throwing money at a problem will not solve it. Need to restructure the
economy, reduce the power of unions and small shops so there can be high
wage companies in Greece like in the rest of the West. If you're not willing
to follow through with the consequences of bringing Greece into the
industrial revolution, let alone the information revolution, then I don't
think there will be ever any wide support.
If you cannot nor willing to argue that education is a higher priority than
hospitals and pensions, then your wasting your time.
These are the reasons Greece is backward and is trapped there.
Why have Greek wealthy invested in Shipping, in import/export Companies and
not in Industry? The Unions. They are your enemy, not funding. Government
Intervention. That is your enemy. Politicians favouring those businessmen
that fund their party, rather than the market deciding. Industry as opposed
to Trading companies by definition requires research and will fund
universities for their own survival and hire graduates for their survival.
Also I think the form of ownership in Greece. Hardly anyone in the west owns
a company outright, they own stocks. As a result the managers are
professionals risen through the ranks rather than the kids of the owners.
That has grave implications on the way workers are treated. If Greece
prohibits (through unfavourable taxation) single ownership of companies,
then consequently funding for education will arise.
Christos Dimitrakakis
elderly and infirm, but for emergency situations. They also have a
'feel-good' factor taht cannot be dismissed. Good hospitals may also at as
places of education for young doctors.
The problem is with pensions. Increased education spending, means more or
less that even more people will be spending time in higher education and
this will be doing 'useful' work for less time. This is what some people
argue. However, my argument is that more money for education will decrease
pension spending in the future because:
1) Well-educated people get higher-paid jobs and get retired much later,
which means that compared to say a manual labourer, a well-educated person
would make a far greater pension contribution.
2) For the reasons mentioned before, well-educated people can help develop
the industry, thus increase the wealth of the state.
Still, the political decision to lower pensions or health spending is
infeasible. The money obviously has to come from elsewhere. Doing either
of those two actions will result in some people getting hurt. A large
number of them, it will also cause the leader to be hated by the people in
general. However, deciding *not* to spend money on projects of little or
no benefit, such as the Rio-Antirio bridge, and use the funds for
improving the rapidly deteriorating state of education in Greece... I
guess Rio-Antirio is a glamorous project (Berlusconi wants to build a
bridge from Sicily to Italy actually!) -
As a side note, I think they should tax the head out of the media monguls
who bombard us with inanities 24 hrs/day. I watched some TV on the
Italy-Greece boat.. and I got TV-sickness very fast.
bekasgr
ola kala
fantazomai pos eisai enas akoma endiaferon typos poy thelei na sosei ton
kosmo
kai go to idio thelo ....
h eleytheria sth gnosh erxete mono apo thn exasfalish ths anepireasths apo
ta kathimerina
problimata parakolouthishs tou kyklou spoudon (kai afta otan eisai 15-25
einai ppolla)
sthn ellada gia na spoudaseis xoris na douleyeis prepei h na sou ta
akoumpane , pou shmainei
oti proerxese apo efporh oikogenia kai oti eisai -ypo elegxo- , h na
kopseis to tsigaro kai na kaneis
proponish monaxikhs nystias (an mporeis kanto kai ela na mou peis)
to paramythi tou ergazomenou spoudasth leitourgei akoma gia arketous sthn
pragmatikotita omos
apla paragei exidikeymenous ergates kai oxi ereynites kai epistimones h
filosofous mia kai ta teleytaia
apaitoun eleytheria kai apalagh apo problimata opos ti tha fame shmera (ama
pinao file oute na tragoudiso de mporo oxi na skeyto )
anyway
ta parapano htan apla gia na kathgoriso kai na metafero se allous thn
eythinh ths katastashs mou (opoios katalabe katalabe)
se parakalo an thes na deis ypografes grafto to rimadi sta ellhnika . se
poioys apeythinese ??? de thes apopseis ths laikhs taxhs h pisteyeis oti gia
na exoun internet xeroun kai agglika tetoiou epipedou ?
h texnh kai h morfosh sthn ellada apeythinontai saytous pou "ta exoun" (kai
ola ta alla tha prostheta ...) mhn apeythinese kai sy mono saytous
Stamatis Bekiaris ICQ#: 115282658
__________________________________________________________________
? "Christos Dimitrakakis" <oleth...@oohay.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.0302011944400.10339-100000@barasson...
shiv
attacking and ruling other country.Tell me they attacked iraq for nuclear
weapons.Did they find any.The war is over every body happy , but why did it
start for.Now the main reason during UN security council was the
weapons.Where are they ?.They keep CNN by there pillow of propanganda.
Greeks are right.I am not saying they should cheer for 9-11.But definetly
they should oppose for iraq war.
--
Shivprasad Koirala
sh...@griffin.gr
Griffin Marine IT Department
syngrou 5 athens
After all, on a twenty-four hour basis....
Marine Travel is our business
visit our website: www.griffintravel.com
mobile (030) - 944 392 362
"bekasgr" <bek...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
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