Subs on the Great Lakes
Fritz Gearhart
Early this morning, 1amish on 5/19 I was watching a show on the
Discovery channel called Steel Sharks or something. It was about
history and use of submarines. One of the topics covered was the use
of sub launched ICBM's, Tridents I believe. The reason it caught my
eye is because there was a retired admiral who mentioned that he could
hit Russia from any of his subs, and he subsequently listed off a
bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
does anyone else know anything about this?
Fritz
Steve Koren
fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
> Discovery channel called Steel Sharks or something. It was about
I saw the same episode quite a while ago. I noticed the same thing you
did.
> bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
> great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
I think he was blowing smoke. I don't think there are any navy subs in
the lakes. Its probably even prohibited by treaty with Canada.
OTOH, sometimes public relations tours are made by various USN frigates
and destroyers. I saw one of these in Cleveland a number of years ago.
- steve
Norman Morin
In article <4nnl2e$l...@vixc.voyager.net>, fgea...@vixa.voyager.net
(Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
>The reason it caught my
>eye is because there was a retired admiral who mentioned that he could
>hit Russia from any of his subs, and he subsequently listed off a
>bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
>great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
>does anyone else know anything about this?
I wonder how much secrecy would be involved in a sub passing through
the locks at, say, Soo Sault Marie? Given how concerned the Navy is
with keeping their locations unknown (even to most Navy people) one
would think there'd be some. But other than going through the locks on
a cloudy night (or something like that) there doesn't seem much they could do.
--Norm
--
Norman J. Morin
nmo...@weber.ucsd.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------
Department of Economics * University of California, San Diego
9500 Gilman Drive * La Jolla, CA 92023-0508
-------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Hebert
In article <oj6vihr...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com>, ko...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com (Steve
Koren) wrote:
>fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
>
>> Discovery channel called Steel Sharks or something. It was about
>
>I saw the same episode quite a while ago. I noticed the same thing you
>did.
>
>> bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
>> great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
been removed.
--jim
----------------------------------------------
Jim Hebert, K8SS | Cruise Lake Huron
CW Communications | (virtually) at
ji...@w8hd.org | http://tango.w8hd.org
WB or CM Hilbrich
Jim Hebert (ji...@w8hd.org) wrote:
: The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
: up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
: Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
: been removed.
*** I am sure that there are a few of us old enough to remember the
Captured World War II U-Boat, U505 that was towed into Lake Michigan, and
the hauled accross Michigan Avenue to become a part of Chicago's Museum of
Science and Indusry.....
Actually, not very far from Chicago, the Glenview Illinois Naval Air
Station, which was (maybe still is) the Home of the Naval Air Reserve
also know as the Weekend Warriors conducted Anti-Submarine Warfare
practice over Lake Michigan. Up until the 60's, when I left for college,
they were still using Neptune Bombers stuffed with equipment...
Just Maybe, the Navy snuck a Boomer into the lake to give both groups some
real practice... But I doubt that it was done with the knowledge of many
people.
Bill
--
=============================================================================
Bill Hilbrich St. Cloud, Minnesota hilb...@cloudnet.com
" It's A Magical World, Hobbes, Ol' Buddy... ...Let's Go Exploring ! "
Calvin's Last Words 12/31/95
=============================================================================
Steve Koren
ji...@w8hd.org (Jim Hebert) wrote:
> The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
> up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
> Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
> been removed.
There is also a non-active one in Cleveland (the USS Cod) that's been
moored by Burke Lakefront airport as long as I can remember. You can
take tours through it.
- steve
Bob Gilreath
Jim Hebert (ji...@w8hd.org) wrote:
: In article <oj6vihr...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com>, ko...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com (Steve
: The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
: up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
: Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
: been removed.
I don't recall now, but wasn't the U-505 thats now at the Museum of Science and
industry, sailed (or towed) thru the great lakes and then hauled out of the
water to the museum site in chigaco?
Bob
: --jim
Launy Paul
About ten years ago they brought a WWII sub through the welland canal and
towed it to Buffalo where, I believe, it is part of a naval museum. I've
never seen a working sub pass throught the Welland Canal but last summer a
Canadian Nuclear sub was in the Toronto Harbour on a tour.
Launy
: The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
: up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
: Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
: been removed.
: --jim
: ----------------------------------------------
: Jim Hebert, K8SS | Cruise Lake Huron
: CW Communications | (virtually) at
: ji...@w8hd.org | http://tango.w8hd.org
--
_
Will Flor
>
> >fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
> >
> >> Discovery channel called Steel Sharks or something. It was about
> >
> >I saw the same episode quite a while ago. I noticed the same thing you
> >did.
> >
> >> bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
> >> great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
>
> up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
> Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
> been removed.
>
There's certainly one at the Manitowoc Maritime Museum at Manitowoc, Wi.
During WWII they built subs there, then floated them by barge to Chicago,
then down the Illinois and Mississippi rivers (still by barge) to the
Gulf, where they set off to the Pacific Theater via the Panama Canal.
-Will Flor wi...@rrgroup.com
James Marron
WB or CM Hilbrich wrote:
>
> Jim Hebert (ji...@w8hd.org) wrote:
>
> : The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
> : up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
> : Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
> : been removed.
>
> Captured World War II U-Boat, U505 that was towed into Lake Michigan, and
> the hauled accross Michigan Avenue to become a part of Chicago's Museum of
> Science and Indusry.....
>
> Actually, not very far from Chicago, the Glenview Illinois Naval Air
> Station, which was (maybe still is) the Home of the Naval Air Reserve
> also know as the Weekend Warriors conducted Anti-Submarine Warfare
> practice over Lake Michigan. Up until the 60's, when I left for college,
> they were still using Neptune Bombers stuffed with equipment...
>
> Just Maybe, the Navy snuck a Boomer into the lake to give both groups some
> real practice... But I doubt that it was done with the knowledge of many
WW II vintage and with a name like Croaker, I doubt many were anxious to
serve on her.
Dave Moorman
My memory may be faulty but I think there are subs listed in Know Yor
Ships and Greenwood's & Dill's.
Dave
--
Dave Moorman
Downers Grove
Illinois, USA Be big, don't belittle!
Paul Cordingley
ze...@newton.physics.BrockU.CA (Launy Paul) wrote:
>About ten years ago they brought a WWII sub through the welland canal and
>towed it to Buffalo where, I believe, it is part of a naval museum. I've
>never seen a working sub pass throught the Welland Canal but last summer a
>Canadian Nuclear sub was in the Toronto Harbour on a tour.
>: The only submarine I've ever seen on the Great Lakes was the old one tied
>: up to the pier at the Naval Reserve Armory, just east of the Belle Isle
>: Bridge in Detroit. It used to be there in the 1960's, but it has since
>: been removed.
Hi Launy and all,
To pick a nit, Canada doesn't have any nuclear submarines. One of the
three diesel-powered subs did tour the Great Lakes a couple of years
back. The local paper ran a photo of the Toronto skyline taken thru
the vessel's periscope - complete with cross-hairs etc - spooky!
As to active warships, the treaty that ended the war of 1812 (my
history is pretty rusty, or I'd remember the exact name) specified
that the US and Canada (Britain at the time) could only have a certain
number of warships on the Great Lakes at any time - I think it's one
or two each. The treaty remains in force today and both countries
honour it.
A few years ago I read an article suggesting that Lake Superior would
be a good place to hide a nuclear missile sub, as the depth and the
amount of magnetic rock around the lake would make it very difficult
to spot a sub by satellite etc.
If anyone out there has a copy of Jane's, maybe you could quote the
dimensions for a 'boomer' sub. I bet they wouldn't fit thru the St
Lawrence seaway - they are pretty big!
Cheers
Paul
K. Foss
On May 21, 1996 17:45:31 in article <Re: Subs on the Great Lakes>,
'ze...@newton.physics.BrockU.CA (Launy Paul)' wrote:
>About ten years ago they brought a WWII sub through the welland canal and
>towed it to Buffalo where, I believe, it is part of a naval museum.
That is correct. It is the submarine Croaker and is part of the Naval Park
in Buffalo. I believe that submarines were built in the Great Lakes during
WW II. I believe they were built in Wisconsin.
Gary R. Good
Submarines were built in Manitowoc, Wis., and there used to be one
of them on display in downtown Manitowoc years ago. Don't know
if it is still there. Also, the U.S. Cod has been on display
in Cleveland for many years. Just east of the CG station on
the lake front. Open year round, except for maybe Christmas,
New Years, etc.
>
--
Gary R. Good fs...@cleveland.freenet.edu
I am going to have to leave early to
make up for coming in late.
RodWriter
The World War II sub USS Silversides at Muskegon is another Lake Michigan
sub on display. It's story was featured in the movie "Destination: Tokyo."
I can't find it right now, but it seems to me there are other subs that
you can tour through in Lake Erie or Lake Ontario, possibly both.
--Rod Smith
PNTHRS
I think there's one in Cleveland, too.
Chuck Evans
Ray Marshall
PNTHRS (pnt...@aol.com) wrote:
: I think there's one in Cleveland, too.
Something that has not been mentioned in this thread is that there is a
treaty between the U.S. and England/Canada after the War of 1812 which
prohibits war ships on the Great Lakes without the permission of the
other party.
I think one visited Duluth in 1956 for the city's centennial
celebration. My younger brother got to go on it, but I didn't.
Ray Marshall
Minneapolis
Jack Painter
In article <4o0bat$b...@cobra.Minn.Net>, raym...@Legarto.Minn.Net says...
>I think one visited Duluth in 1956 for the city's centennial
>celebration. My younger brother got to go on it, but I didn't.
>Ray Marshall
>Minneapolis
The U.S. Navy maintained a handful of active Diesel Boats for radar
picket and ant-submarine warfare training until the early 1980's, when
the last were all sold, gifted to museums, or scrapped. I don't remember
one ever going by Erie...but I was born in '57. By the way, mentioned in
this thread was the USS Croaker somewhere up the Lakes...she was part of
the pier-scape at New London for almost half a century. Slipped aboard
her at night through the funnel as a Sub-School ritual.
--
=================================================================
John F. (Jack) Painter Federal Contracts Accounting
804-464-1007 VA-SAB Air Pollution Control
jf...@infi.net Fax 804-464-1064 Electric Power Research Inst
Marian Vasile
>Early this morning, 1amish on 5/19 I was watching a show on the
>Discovery channel called Steel Sharks or something. It was about
>history and use of submarines. One of the topics covered was the use
>of sub launched ICBM's, Tridents I believe. The reason it caught my
>eye is because there was a retired admiral who mentioned that he could
>hit Russia from any of his subs, and he subsequently listed off a
>bunch of locations where nuclear subs are, and one of those was "the
>great lakes." I haven't heard of any nuclear subs in the great lakes,
>does anyone else know anything about this?
>
>Fritz
>
Last summer I was fishing offshore Toronto about 5 miles,and I saw
something like a submarine. That time I tough it can't be for real,but
now I change my mind.It was a sub for sure.
Marian
mr...@pipeline.com
In article <4ntrl2$m...@news.inforamp.net>, Paul Cordingley writes:
>
>
>If anyone out there has a copy of Jane's, maybe you could quote the
>dimensions for a 'boomer' sub. I bet they wouldn't fit thru the St
>Lawrence seaway - they are pretty big!
>
>Cheers
>Paul
>
>
David Miller and was surprised to find that you could fit an Ohio class
boomer through the locks and into the Lakes.
Length:560 ft. beam:42 ft draught:35 ft 6 in.
Okay, you might scrape along the bottom in some of the channels, but...
It's an interesting proposition.
Later, John Mueller,livin'in da Bronx, still thinking of Michigan and
home.
Steve Koren
crs...@inforamp.net (Paul Cordingley) wrote:
> that the US and Canada (Britain at the time) could only have a certain
> number of warships on the Great Lakes at any time - I think it's one
I wonder what counts as a warship. Does the Niagara still count? :-)
> be a good place to hide a nuclear missile sub, as the depth and the
> amount of magnetic rock around the lake would make it very difficult
> to spot a sub by satellite etc.
I dunno... I think you can't practically spot subs by satellite anyway,
and Superior is deep for a lake but it is mere chicken feed compared to,
say, the Atlantic :-)
- steve
HowellFilm
The USS Silversides, a WWII naval sub is docked at Muskegon as a museum.
Up until 1989, it was a floating museum at Navy Pier in Chicago (it was
docked there next to another famous vessel, the Milwaukee Clipper).
Unfortunately though, after Mayor Washington died, the new leaders of the
Windy City decided that the dock space at Navy Pier was too valuable for
the famous Silversides and Clipper, and forced them to leave. The
Milwaukee Clipper eventually ended up as the centerpiece of the Hammond
(Indiana) Marina where it remained until this year. Gambling entered the
picture there, and the Clipper was moved to the Calumet River while the
City of Hammond searches for a new home port for the legendary 90 year old
Great Lakes luxury liner. It'd be nice if the Milwaukee Clipper could move
back to her old home port, Muskegon. There, she would be a big hit, and
work could begin on her restoration to cross-lake service.
Mark Howell
Producer, "The Milwaukee Clipper; Should We Scrap a Great Lakes Legend?"
Mark Howell
Burbank, CA
Sojourner
mr...@pipeline.com wrote:
It may be an interesting proposition but not very practical.
Regardless of attempting to bring a boomer through at night I doubt
very much if the Navy would be willing to expose it to satellite
surveillance and the obvious media coverage.
Once in Lake Superior it would be one less boomer the Russians would
have to be looking for. (Yes, they still have an interest in our
submarine fleet.) A integral part of a boomer's mission is to avoid
detection and be ready to respond.
Maybe someday a decommissioned one may be a tourist attraction on the
lakes?
Dennis
Raphael L. Totzke
I don't recall if this info has been posted yet. If not, here it is for
all to read.
The USS Cobia is tied up at the Maritime Museum in Manitowoc, Wisc.
Tours are available daily. It represents the many subs built in
Manitowoc for the war effort.
WE WON!!!
Roland Burgan
My memory tells me that all operational submarines are banned from
the Great Lakes by International Treaty.
Roland Burgan, Hancock, MI
Jim Zeirke
When the Manitowoc Maritime Museum moved the sub to its current berth,
this was back in the late 80's or early 90's, they brought in the guy who
skippered it during WWII to be in the conning tower when it was moved.
It must have been a real thrill for that old guy to once again command
the COBIA.
Jim
Sscitymilw
The U.S.S. SILVERSIDES is moored in the Muskegon Channel. The Gato class
WWII submarine can be viewed during guided tours. School, scout and
church groups can arrange overnights aboard the submarine, which can
accommodate up to 60 people. They have a gas furnace with a break-away
valve allowing for year-round usage.
A couple of years ago U.S.S. SILVERSIDES was towed out into Lake Michigan
and filmed by the BBC, as part of a documentary on WWII submarines. On
May 26th, I believe they fired up a couple of the 9 cylinder diesel
engines (4 total) during their Memorial Day weekend ceremonies. All four
engines are operational, and are periodically fired up. They usually have
a National Guard flyover at the ceremony as well.
U.S. Navy reservists assist maintaining U.S.S. SILVERSIDES and the museums
U.S.C.G.C. McLANE, a 125 foot former Coast Guard Cutter built in 1927.
George
sscit...@aol.com
(S.S. CITY OF MILWAUKEE is a former great lakes carferry, now undergoing
restoration at Elberta MI)
For a brochure on the U.S.S. SILVERSIDES & MARITIME MUSEUM, please e-mail
Cathy Morin at: cath...@aol.com
Kim Sebert
Subs on the Great Lakes. We can't forget the U-505 in Chicago at the
Museum of Science and Industry. I know it isn't in the water but you
can see the Lake from there.(Or could).
I also find it hard to forget the submarine races those warm summer
nights camping at the bridge. Ahhh Yes. I remember them well. Never did
figure out who won...(c:
Kim
Fritz Gearhart
>My memory tells me that all operational submarines are banned from
>the Great Lakes by International Treaty.
>Roland Burgan, Hancock, MI
After I posted my initial question regarding subs on the Great Lakes,
a few people mentioned this to me via email. This past weekend I
asked a friend who is in the coast guard about this treaty and that
there was none. He also said that the only subs on the lakes in use
are small research ones. Does anyone else know anything about this
"treaty?"
Fritz
LeeToon
The Subway shop on Perkins Avenue here in Sandusky ain't bad, though a
Blimpie's has opened in Huron. But the best subs around here are from
AllWays Pizza and from Pizza House West. And they're cheap, too.
Sub-versively yours,
Don Lee
SOSIDEJOHN
You can still see the lake from the U-505 -- if you stand on tippy-toe and
look over the trafffic on Lake Shore Drive. Did you know that it'll be
moved to the front of the Museum when the rebuilding plan is completed
(2001?)?
Steve Koren
lee...@aol.com (LeeToon) wrote:
> The Subway shop on Perkins Avenue here in Sandusky ain't bad, though a
> Sub-versively yours,
That was really a sub-standard pun.
- steve
Jonathan Bare
Fritz Gearhart (fgea...@vixa.voyager.net) wrote:
: >My memory tells me that all operational submarines are banned from
: >Roland Burgan, Hancock, MI
: Fritz
I've been watching too much late-night A&E, but a Naval commander told the A&E
cameras that no matter what was going on in the world, he'd always have a
warhead aimed at a shortlist of former Soviet cities no matter where the subs
were stationed... the Pacific, Atlantic, under the Pole and in the Great
Lakes, etc. Makes sense... no bad guys here (subs that is). The toughest and
most inhibiting thing would be to get the subs past onlookers at the various
locks and shallow passageways.
I think the name of the A&E documentary was Silent Warriors of the Deep or
something like that...
jonathan l. bare -- who calls from the home port of the Cobia, Manitowoc
jlb...@acs.bu.edu
jlb...@csd.uwm.edu
Fritz Gearhart
>I've been watching too much late-night A&E, but a Naval commander told the A&E
>cameras that no matter what was going on in the world, he'd always have a
>warhead aimed at a shortlist of former Soviet cities no matter where the subs
>were stationed... the Pacific, Atlantic, under the Pole and in the Great
>Lakes, etc. Makes sense... no bad guys here (subs that is). The toughest and
>most inhibiting thing would be to get the subs past onlookers at the various
>locks and shallow passageways.
>I think the name of the A&E documentary was Silent Warriors of the Deep or
>something like that...
>jonathan l. bare -- who calls from the home port of the Cobia, Manitowoc
>jlb...@acs.bu.edu
>jlb...@csd.uwm.edu
It was that very program that prompted me to inquire! (I too spend
too much late time watching A&E..) For some reason though, I thought
that the programs was called 'Steel Sharks' or something..
Fritz
Jack Painter
fgea...@vixa.voyager.net says...
>>SNIP/ but a Naval commander told the A&E
>>no matter where the subs were stationed,the Pacific, Atlantic, under
>It was that very program that prompted me to inquire!
>Fritz
Superior has at least marginal areas that a boomer could operate,
however, the range from Superior to antagonist targets is near the limit
of the weapon systems capabilities. Unreasonable to have to wait 35
minutes for small theatre weapons to arrive on target. Much greater of a
deterrent to have them deliverable within 15 minutes from a wide range of
open-ocean patrol areas.
Jack
Steve Koren
fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
> It was that very program that prompted me to inquire! (I too spend
> too much late time watching A&E..) For some reason though, I thought
> that the programs was called 'Steel Sharks' or something..
Sharks of Steel is the Discovery Channel show. That's where I saw it
(which I am sure of because I don't get A&E :-). But maybe the same
footage was used for A&E too.
I still think he was pulling our legs. I mean, considerer.... first,
you can't very well sneak a sub into the lakes. There's so many rivers
and locks you have to go through, even at night it'll be noticed.
Second, there are no submarine bases, so it'd have to come back out
every 6 months or so anyway. Third, the lakes are big, but not big like
oceans are big. There seems little point to having one in the lakes to
begin with. Fourth, there might (not sure) be treaties preventing such
a thing to begin with. Fifth, the SLBMs have a long range but not quite
that long.
I still believe the fellow was blowing smoke.
- steve
Old Salt
Steve Koren (ko...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com) wrote:
: fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
: - steve
One more thing to add. Why have a
sub in the Great Lakes if
you have (had) :(
a SAC bomber base in the UP.
-Brett
Jsmeed
I have heard rumors of subs on the lakes before, but I kind of just
considered the source. Having just visited lock #3 on the Welland canal,
I'm pretty sure a SLBM wouldn't fit. This may have been mentioned before
in the string, but about 30 years ago, one or two subs WERE stationed on
the Detroit River, just north of the Belle Isle Bridge, along with a small
Navy gunboat (U.S.S. Paducah, I think; I've got a picture of it aroud here
somewhere). I always assumed they were either recruiting tools or tourist
attractions.
Jeff S.
Rochester Mi.
xmas
The USS COD is also docked on the shore of Lake Erie in Cleveland, and is
available for tours throughout the summer.
Jonathan Bare
Steve Koren (ko...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com) wrote:
: fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
: > It was that very program that prompted me to inquire! (I too spend
: > too much late time watching A&E..) For some reason though, I thought
: > that the programs was called 'Steel Sharks' or something..
: Sharks of Steel is the Discovery Channel show. That's where I saw it
: (which I am sure of because I don't get A&E :-). But maybe the same
: footage was used for A&E too.
Ooops... my mistake.
: I still believe the fellow was blowing smoke.
Quite likely. Though I still like to think that maybe... just maybe there's
enough fire power floating around the Lakes to destroy a few small
countries... And I don't mean the stuff they drag up out of the live-fire
range on Lake Michigan out off of Sheboygan.
jonathan l. bare
jlb...@acs.bu.edu
jlb...@csd.uwm.edu
Ragnar
Steve Koren wrote:
>
> fgea...@vixa.voyager.net (Fritz Gearhart) wrote:
>
> > It was that very program that prompted me to inquire! (I too spend
> > too much late time watching A&E..) For some reason though, I thought
> > that the programs was called 'Steel Sharks' or something..
>
> Sharks of Steel is the Discovery Channel show. That's where I saw it
> (which I am sure of because I don't get A&E :-). But maybe the same
> footage was used for A&E too.
>
> you can't very well sneak a sub into the lakes. There's so many rivers
> and locks you have to go through, even at night it'll be noticed.
> Second, there are no submarine bases, so it'd have to come back out
> every 6 months or so anyway. Third, the lakes are big, but not big like
> oceans are big. There seems little point to having one in the lakes to
> begin with. Fourth, there might (not sure) be treaties preventing such
> a thing to begin with. Fifth, the SLBMs have a long range but not quite
> that long.
>
>
I am inclined to agree. I do recall, however, that at the time of the MX Missile
debate during the Carter and Reagan years (remember, the railroad in the desert
shell game proposal?) there was some thought given to constructing inexpensive,
low-tech diesel-electric subs to be stationed in the Great Lakes. The thought was
that the area would be vastly larger, thus harder to blanket for the USSR, and that the
'subs' could be very inexpensive, given the small operating depth and low speed requirements.
I don't think this was ever considered very seriously, given that the military by and large
likes big, high-tech systems, and I would also assume that our Friends to the North would have
had something to say about this. Not to mention that the Air Force would never give up its ICBM's
to the Navy.
It would be an interesting possibility, though.
Dave Green
All this talk about subs in the Great Lakes. . . and I used to think
that taking your date to see the submarine races in the Detroit River
was just a joke.
KOERS
When i was a child in the 50's, a diesel sub used to visit Milwaukee on
Lake Michigan on a regular basis.
Jim Carr
Could someone repost the "michigander" list?
Thanks. Our feed through GaTech has been awful for the last few weeks
(this one from 7 June just arrived!) and I have only seen followups.
Could be the robo-newskiller expired it as soon as it got here...
ko...@hpsrk.fc.hp.com (Steve Koren) writes:
>
>I still think he was pulling our legs.
Yes. And since I was talking to some submariners this weekend, I took
the chance to ask about it. One of them observed that they train people
for boomers at "Great Lakes" training base near Chicago, so it could be
an inside joke. It is banned by treaties, but it is not a crazy idea.
>I mean, considerer.... first,
>you can't very well sneak a sub into the lakes.
When subs go on patrol, they make their exit quite publicly for
reasons related to various treaties. Then they disappear. This is
much easier to do in a place like Lake Michigan where there are few
enemy attack subs or destroyers to elude. Bases are the main problem,
but from a security standpoint it would be great. Very hard to target.
> Fifth, the SLBMs have a long range but not quite that long.
No problem for today's missles. Polaris was limited.
--
James A. Carr <j...@scri.fsu.edu> | "The half of knowledge is knowing
http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/ | where to find knowledge" - Anon.
Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | Motto over the entrance to Dodd
Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | Hall, former library at FSCW.
Greg Hayden
> When subs go on patrol, they make their exit quite publicly for
> reasons related to various treaties. Then they disappear. This is
> much easier to do in a place like Lake Michigan where there are few
> enemy attack subs or destroyers to elude. Bases are the main problem,
> but from a security standpoint it would be great. Very hard to target.
Not that publicly. There was a fella over on sci.military.naval that
took a pic of a departing sub from the Golden Gate Bridge one morning
then tried to find out which one it was. I don't believe he ever did.
--
Greg Hayden
Another Merchant Marine Page
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1965/
Steve Koren
j...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) wrote:
> >I mean, considerer.... first,
> >you can't very well sneak a sub into the lakes.
>
> When subs go on patrol, they make their exit quite publicly for
> reasons related to various treaties. Then they disappear. This is
Yep, true. Mostly I just meant that someone would notice it going in
there in the first place. Since no one has (that I've heard of), it
seems improbable that there's one in there.
Still, it'd be pretty cool if there was :-)
The Navy does bring the occasional FF or DG into the lakes for public
relations tours.
- steve
Jsmeed
>When subs go on patrol, they make their exit quite publicly for
>reasons related to various treaties. Then they disappear.
That's the problem. When a boomer goes down, it could be anywhere. In
order to enter the lakes, though, it has to be public. A submerged sub
draws too much water to fit through the locks at Welland or to make it
across Lake St. Clair. Same for the Soo locks. Therefore, it gets real
easy to at least estimate where it is.
Jeff Smeed
Rochester Mi.
Jack Painter
A former (boomer) submariner responds to:
<4q45a0$8...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu>, j...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu says...
>>I mean, considerer.... first,
>>you can't very well sneak a sub into the lakes.
>reasons related to various treaties. Then they disappear.
All nameplates and pennants are removed prior to non-publicized departure
dates. Stealthy departure (submerged a.s.a.p.) is critical, since both
of the bad guys still employ listening "trawlers" to track and assign
their fast-attack tailers to us, and they linger right outside our
terratorial waters, and inside our harbors when they can pull it off.
>enemy attack subs or destroyers to elude. Bases are the main problem,
>but from a security standpoint it would be great. Very hard to target.
A handfull of mirvs would cover all of the deepwater areas of Superior!
>> Fifth, the SLBMs have a long range but not quite that long.
>No problem for today's missles. Polaris was limited.
Poseidon was still limited, and the Trident's (the only active class) is
still "limited" when compared to land-based ICBM's. I watched with some
disgust as we let the Russians watch the destruction of inert Poseidon
and Trident missiles and launchers here in Virginia Beach, where the
country's only Guided Missile School used to be. Now it is in King's Bay
GA and Bremerton WA., where the Trident subs operate from. Still two
crews per boat, but less R & R between patrols, since the off-going crew
has to help during the oncoming crew's refit.
WB or CM Hilbrich
Jsmeed (jsm...@aol.com) wrote:
: >When subs go on patrol, they make their exit quite publicly for
: That's the problem. When a boomer goes down, it could be anywhere. In
: order to enter the lakes, though, it has to be public. A submerged sub
: draws too much water to fit through the locks at Welland or to make it
: across Lake St. Clair. Same for the Soo locks. Therefore, it gets real
: easy to at least estimate where it is.
**** True, but once it was in the Great Lakes, it would still be a lot
harder to find than the Land Based ICM sites in North Dakota, or even the
railroad based shuttle system that was proposed.
Bill
--
=============================================================================
hilb...@cloudnet.com
" It's A Magical World, Hobbes, Ol' Buddy... ...Let's Go Exploring ! "
Calvin's Last Words 12/31/95
=============================================================================
LeeToon
JSmeed wrote:
< A submerged sub
draws too much water to fit through the locks at Welland or to make it
across Lake St. Clair. Same for the Soo locks. Therefore, it gets real
easy to at least estimate where it is.>
Don't mean to make fun, but the post put the following picture into my
head:
The lockmaster is visited by several Ray-Ban-wearing, humorless men in
badly-fitting cheap suits, and is told to cycle the lock at such-and-such
a time. Asking why, he is told, "Don't ask questions. This did not happen,
and we were never here."
Don Lee
Sandusky, Ohio
Opinions are my own. If you agree with me, that is your problem.
Sourdough
Sure, there are subs out there. (in Superior anyway) They were brought in
in the late 60's and early 70's. I saw them being dropped in one night off
the North Shore. Was done by a large aircraft hovering over lake (could
see the lights)..appeared to be motionless at the time. suddenly about
eight smmaller lights appeared under it (probably portholes) and they
descended to the lake level and dissapeared. The bright light overhead
then shot off at a relative (not supersonic) fast speed.