Adobe RGB(1998)>sRGB - working with Fuji Frontier output
frankg
their Fuji Frontier. I supply them with RGB files. In the process of
calibrating my system to theirs, I have discovered that the machine's color
space is sRGB - and my space is Adobe RGB (1998), leading to a discrepancy
in the output .
Once I have the file prepared & ready, how can I preview the sRGB ?
Or do I have to actually change my entire Color settings>RGB setup and tweak
the file and then save a copy in sRGB ?
I'm on Windows98SE and PS 5.5 (but if there is a better way in v6 let me
know as I'm going to upgrade soon).
Thanks
Frank
RossF
<fh.gross@sympatico(nospam).ca> wrote:
>I found a local lab that can make regular color prints from digital files on
>their Fuji Frontier. I supply them with RGB files. In the process of
>calibrating my system to theirs, I have discovered that the machine's color
>space is sRGB - and my space is Adobe RGB (1998), leading to a discrepancy
>in the output .
>
>Once I have the file prepared & ready, how can I preview the sRGB ?
>Or do I have to actually change my entire Color settings>RGB setup and tweak
>the file and then save a copy in sRGB ?
>
I would change RGB Setup to sRGB and let the program convert when you
open the Adobe RGB image. You should get an appropriate preview. Tweak
and save a copy with the profile if that's what your lab wants. PS 5.x
is a bit clumsy and inscrutable.
>I'm on Windows98SE and PS 5.5 (but if there is a better way in v6 let me
>know as I'm going to upgrade soon).
>
PS 6 is much more straightforward. You aren't limited to a single
workspace. If you open an image profiled as sRGB, even if your default
is Adobe RGB (1998), it remains and previews in its native space, as
do all other open images. PS 6 offers better soft-proofing options,
too.
Ross
MSD
then "save as"
but
it is difficult to believe their printer is sRGB
in article 3r+aOxc7X7WE4b...@4ax.com, RossF at RossF wrote on
9/8/01 6:23 PM:
RossF
>I would go to Image - mode - convert to profile
>then "save as"
>but
>it is difficult to believe their printer is sRGB
>
With PS 5.x, there is no Mode>Convert to Profile. If you use
Mode>Profile to Profile, you will only map the Adobe RGB values to
equivalent values in the sRGB space, which is not what the print will
look like. The Preview will still be compensating from the Adobe RGB
space, and PS will still embed the Adobe RGB profile.
If you change your setup to sRGB and then open the Adobe RGB image, PS
5.x will convert the image to sRGB so that it looks as close as
possible to the original (depending what you've enabled in Profile
Setup), the preview will be correct, and the sRGB profile will be
embedded (if you've enabled that in Profile Setup).
PS 5.x is a bit clumsy.
>it is difficult to believe their printer is sRGB
That sounds suspicious to me, too, but make sure to consult with the
lab. If you give them an image that you profiled with Adobe RGB and
they use Photoshop, they should be able to convert it properly for
their output, but your colors might be duller than you previewed. Try
both ways and see which works. If your prints still come out poorly,
then change labs.
Ross
frankg
of trying to calibrate my system to theirs.
Originally, when we started out, I asked a tech what space they were working
in & he confirmed Adobe RGB (1998) - so am I, I thought great ! We're
already in the same ball park.
But after struggling with a few results, I asked for a printed target and a
digital file that they use to set up with. When I inserted the CD, PS asked
me if I want to convert it from sRGB which of course surprised me. Anyway,
If I do the conversion the on screen image does not match the printed
output, but if I leave it as sRGB then it does. I spoke to the manager
there, and he confirmed that the machine is setup in sRGB. Odd, but I guess
it's most acceptable to most customers or something :)
My next batch of prints were still not "matching" and I realised that my
Adobe (1998) profile was embedded in all my files and their process is fully
automated, they're not opening each individual file in PS, so they're not
doing a conversion (as I understand it, even if they did, it would be to the
smaller gamut sRGB & the result would still differ). They could open each
file in PS but thatt would send the cost up significantly.
I installed 6 last night as all indicators point to a better color
management system ( I now have both 5.5 & 6 installed until I feel more
confident with 6) .
Now I need to see how to preview sRGB from my AdobeRGB file (default
space) - I think it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile & then place sRGB in the
Destination box? Correct ?
Actually, probably best that I first Duplicate the Adobe RGB file & then do
the above preview to the duplicate, so that I can look at the 2 images
side-by-side for a comparison.
Do I then Save this Converted to sRGB Profile Duplicate to send them for
printing ? Would this be the best way to go about it ? I'm still trying to
find my way around 6 and develop a workflow. Since not all my output is to
this printer or lab, I still want to keep my files and RGB space as Adobe
RGB (1998) so I've set that up as the default RGB.
Frank
--
http://www.frankgross.com/
<RossF> wrote in message news:kOiaO51atktOvz...@4ax.com...
RossF
>it is difficult to believe their printer is sRGB
>
Another aside: Many printers don't profile their printers, and often
printer drivers are built to expect sRGB because that is the "safe"
standard that M$ and HP have thrust upon us. This does not mean that
the gamut of the printer is so limited, or that sRGB is a very good
match for it. Many photographic images do not use colors that the
printer could print, so sRGB often looks just as good as if you'd used
a larger space. But, for images with highly saturated RGB colors, a
better print could probably be made if you started with a larger,
better matched space (i.e. Adobe RGB 1998), and converted to the
actual measured space of the printer. For instance, most printers can
print much more cyan ink than you will get using sRGB.
Ross
frankg
To preview sRGB from my AdobeRGB file (default space) - is it
Image>Mode>Convert to Profile & then place sRGB in the Destination box?
Correct ?
To see a side-by-side comparison - first Duplicate the Adobe RGB file & then
do
the sRGB preview to the duplicate, then I can look at the 2 images
Correct ?
Before sending file to the lab, do I Save the Converted to sRGB Profile
Duplicate and send it that way for printing ?
Would this be the best way to go about it ? I'm still trying to find my way
around 6 and develop a workflow. Since not all my output is to this printer
or lab, I still want to keep my files and RGB space as Adobe
RGB (1998) default.
Frank
Rob Taal
> >it is difficult to believe their printer is sRGB
>
> That sounds suspicious to me, too, but make sure to consult with the
> lab. If you give them an image that you profiled with Adobe RGB and
> they use Photoshop, they should be able to convert it properly for
> their output, but your colors might be duller than you previewed. Try
> both ways and see which works. If your prints still come out poorly,
> then change labs.
>
The Fuji Frontier Printer prints digital media as sRGB, but you can
ask the lab if they will make prints in PD mode. In this mode the
prints will come out much better, and not so yellow/warm as often will
happen in sRGB mode.
The Fuji Frontier printer will not use any corrections to print your
file in PD mode. If the lab prints in sRGB mode, the Frontier printer
will always adjust your file a little bit (it sometimes uses
autocontrast if it finds your prints lack contrast)
Our lab print files from most people as sRGB, but for our professional
customers we print in PD mode. All our professional customers
calibrated their monitors with our Fuji Frontier Printer using Fuji's
VIT software.
Rob Taal
The Hague - Holland
frankg
what is PD ? and can I get VIT software to calibrate with ?
Frank
"Rob Taal" <rdt...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:47dc5c5b.01090...@posting.google.com...
Mike Russell
news:csKm7.595$BS1....@news20.bellglobal.com...
> In PS 6:
> To preview sRGB from my AdobeRGB file (default space) - is it
> Image>Mode>Convert to Profile & then place sRGB in the Destination box?
> Correct ?
>
> To see a side-by-side comparison - first Duplicate the Adobe RGB file & then
> do
> the sRGB preview to the duplicate, then I can look at the 2 images
> Correct ?
This will work, and may be appropriate given that you are going to be shipping your files out in
sRGB.
Another alternative is to "soft proof" your Abobe RGB images in sRGB, and this may be more
convenient if you just want to gague how your image will look without duping the image. You can set
your soft proof RGB space to be sRGB by default.
It is probably appropriate to set your intent, in color settings, to relative colorimetric instead
of perceptual. Otherwise you may see a loss of brightness and saturation in all your images.
Beware, though, of clipping and resulting loss of detail in saturated areas of your images.
> Before sending file to the lab, do I Save the Converted to sRGB Profile
> Duplicate and send it that way for printing ?
> Would this be the best way to go about it ? I'm still trying to find my way
> around 6 and develop a workflow. Since not all my output is to this printer
> or lab, I still want to keep my files and RGB space as Adobe
> RGB (1998) default.
Set up an action to convert an image to sRGB, then use PS's batch mode to convert all your files
before printing them.
One more word on gamut. Keep in mind you are not necessarily gaining anything by keeping your
images in a wide gamut space - printers, even the Frontier, are more limited in gamut than even a
mediocre CRT, and by implication sRGB. I don't have any experience with the Frontier, though, and
I'd be interested in more detail about the cyan clipping that Ross mentioned.
frankg
Another alternative is to "soft proof" your Abobe RGB images in sRGB, and
this may be more
convenient if you just want to gague how your image will look without duping
the image. You can set your soft proof RGB space to be sRGB by default.
Is this done via
View>Proof Setup>
- in the Setup box: choose Custom.
- in the Profile Box: choose sRGB.
- in the Intent box: choose ?
Save to a name such as "sRGB SoftProof" or whatever.
Is this the way to do it?
Frank
"Mike Russell" <ge...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:9nglc...@enews4.newsguy.com...
RossF
<fh.gross@sympatico(nospam).ca> wrote:
>As my prints were not coming back as expected (wsiwyg) I started the process
>of trying to calibrate my system to theirs.
>Originally, when we started out, I asked a tech what space they were working
>in & he confirmed Adobe RGB (1998) - so am I, I thought great ! We're
>already in the same ball park.
>But after struggling with a few results, I asked for a printed target and a
>digital file that they use to set up with. When I inserted the CD, PS asked
>me if I want to convert it from sRGB which of course surprised me. Anyway,
>If I do the conversion the on screen image does not match the printed
>output, but if I leave it as sRGB then it does. I spoke to the manager
>there, and he confirmed that the machine is setup in sRGB. Odd, but I guess
>it's most acceptable to most customers or something :)
I guess a question that should be asked is--is your monitor accurate?
When you open the sRGB file, and leave it as sRGB, then PS 6 will show
you the colors on your monitor based on your monitor profile--it
doesn't matter what your default space is. The colors should look like
the printed target if everything was done properly on the lab's end,
and your monitor profile is accurate. In PS 6, if you choose to
convert the image into the Adobe RGB space upon opening the file, then
the sRGB numbers are translated to the new space, but you shouldn't
see much difference because you're going from a smaller space to a
larger space.
>My next batch of prints were still not "matching" and I realised that my
>Adobe (1998) profile was embedded in all my files and their process is fully
>automated, they're not opening each individual file in PS, so they're not
>doing a conversion (as I understand it, even if they did, it would be to the
>smaller gamut sRGB & the result would still differ). They could open each
>file in PS but thatt would send the cost up significantly.
>
>I installed 6 last night as all indicators point to a better color
>management system ( I now have both 5.5 & 6 installed until I feel more
>confident with 6) .
>
>Now I need to see how to preview sRGB from my AdobeRGB file (default
>space) - I think it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile & then place sRGB in the
>Destination box? Correct ?
>
With PS 6 you can use soft-proofing. With your Adobe RGB file open,
choose View>Proof Setup>Custom. Choose sRGB as the Profile. If you
select "Preserve Color Numbers", then you will see what the image
would look like if the Adobe RGB values were printed without
conversion to the sRGB space (like Assign Profile) to an sRGB device.
Alternatively, if not checked, then you'll see what would happen if
you converted the Adobe RGB values to the closest equivalent sRGB
values using a profile conversion. The latter choice should preserve
the colors better.
If you want to actually convert the Adobe RGB image to sRGB, then use
Image>Mode>Convert to Profile. That changes color values for real, not
just for previewing. For instance, if you have a deep red in Adobe RGB
that is, say (230, 50, 70), when you convert it to sRGB, the red
component will probably end up maxed out at 255, because that's the
closest match in the sRGB space.
Whether you use Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric doesn't make any
difference when going from one device independent color space to
another, only when using a table-based profile.
>Actually, probably best that I first Duplicate the Adobe RGB file & then do
>the above preview to the duplicate, so that I can look at the 2 images
>side-by-side for a comparison.
>
If you convert to sRGB, definitely do so on a copy. Always save your
Adobe RGB files in case you want to take advantage of a better
printing process some day.
In addition to side-by-side previews, you can use the "Preview"
checkbox in the conversion dialogs to flip back and forth between
original and converted.
>Do I then Save this Converted to sRGB Profile Duplicate to send them for
>printing ? Would this be the best way to go about it ? I'm still trying to
>find my way around 6 and develop a workflow. Since not all my output is to
>this printer or lab, I still want to keep my files and RGB space as Adobe
>RGB (1998) so I've set that up as the default RGB.
>
Make sure you have no other options. If not, convert a copy to sRGB,
tweak the colors if needed, and give them the converted file. You can
ask them if they need the image tagged with a profile. Presumably, if
you convert to sRGB, and they open them as sRGB, then the numbers stay
the same.
Ross
RossF
wrote:
Actually, Mike, just about any printer I know that uses cyan ink has a
gamut that sRGB can't match up to. As I stated in another post, many
typical photographic images do not require full use of a printer's
gamut, so using sRGB isn't as big a sacrifice. That's why sRGB is
tolerated by much of the consumer industry. When you get into computer
generated and enhanced images, and higher-quality photos, discerning
folks are not so pleased with sRGB. :)
Ross
Rob Taal
> Hi Rob,
> what is PD ? and can I get VIT software to calibrate with ?
> Frank
>
> --
> http://www.frankgross.com/
>
I don't know where PD stands for (the Fuji guys haven't explained it
to me yet), but it does have a wider gamut than sRGB.
We noticed this when we took a photo with the nikon d1x of a man with
a white shirt with a very light print on it. Printed as sRGB the guy's
shirt was all bleached out, in PD mode the print was perfect and
according to our monitor.
This mode is not normally activated in the Fuji Frontier, but you can
ask your local lab if they can ask Fuji to activate it. Since we use
this mode all our prints come out exactly as we want it.
Fuji VIT (Visual Image Testset, is sold here in Holland through the
Fuji Frontier printlabs.
The VIT is made by fuji germany:
FUJI PHOTO FILM (Europa) GmbH
Abteilung DTA
Heesenstrasse 31
40549 Düsseldorf
Tel: (0211) 5080- 282, 290, 291, 292
Fax: (0211) 5089= 378
E-Mail: qualit...@fujifilm.de
frankg
Frank
<RossF> wrote in message news:0CGcO564kOgNX0...@4ax.com...