Pantone gradient - how ?
C. Nielsen
pantone process solid colors ( a dark and a light green ) even if I choose
the colors from the pantone libery it won't work.
Do enyone know how to make a gradient fill with 2 pantone colors ?
Do anyone know if it will be a problem for the printer with a pantone
gradient fill , will
it look the same once printed ?
Thanks.
Ch. Nielsen
Doug Winger
"C. Nielsen" <C.NielsenD...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Make sure you're not using spot colors, but instead true CMYK process
colors (or RGB if you're working in that mode). If you are using spot
colors, gradients generally don't work very well unless you're using
tint percentages of the same ink/spot color.
Keep in mind that spot colors live entirely outside the world of
CMYK/RGB and are a unique, separate color plate in printing. Blending
them in a gradient with "regular" process colors or another ink color is
quite the black art.
I don't have CS3 yet, but unless they've changed things a lot, dragging
the colors to your working palette if they're not already there and then
double clicking them individually should bring up a dialog that allows
you to convert between spot color and process. There might be some minor
color shifting in the final- as you're no longer using a true spot color
so your printer will be deciding what they look like - but it will
generally print well.
- Doug
Jim Webb
> In article <46d3dcc0$0$67278$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk>,
> "C. Nielsen" <C.NielsenD...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In illustrator CS3 , I have a problem creating a gradient with 2 different
>> pantone process solid colors ( a dark and a light green ) even if I choose
>> the colors from the pantone libery it won't work.
>> Do enyone know how to make a gradient fill with 2 pantone colors ?
>>
>> Do anyone know if it will be a problem for the printer with a pantone
>> gradient fill , will it look the same once printed ?
Two methods I've used to print a 2-spot-colour job with gradients of the
two colours (e.g. blending red>blue):
1. Simple foolproof method - use just solid Cyan, Magenta, Yellow or
Black (e.g. instead of red>blue, blend magenta>cyan) and tell the
printer to substitute the Pantone colours on-press. The disadvantage is
the client proof will have the wrong colours -- and you don't really see
the end result until it is on press.
2. More finicky: create the blend twice - first with one Pantone
blending to 0%, when paste a copy on top with the other Pantone blend
going th eother way (again, blending to 0%), and in the Attributes box
check 'Overprint' for the top object. View in 'Overprint Preview' mode
to see the result. If you check the separations in the print dialogue
you will see only the two colours will print - no CMYK.
Jim Webb
Sudury
inez
> 2. More finicky: create the blend twice - first with one Pantone
> blending to 0%, when paste a copy on top with the other Pantone blend
> going th eother way (again, blending to 0%), and in the Attributes box
> check 'Overprint' for the top object. View in 'Overprint Preview' mode
> to see the result. If you check the separations in the print dialogue
> you will see only the two colours will print - no CMYK.
>
> Jim Webb
> Sudury
>
Yes, I find the above a much better option, though I don't put a lot of
faith in the display preview for Pantones in general, much less a blend
of two or more. If you're going to blend two separate Pantones instead
of using tint percentages of the same Pantone, I'd take the additional
logical step of chosing colors that share similar makeup (check your
guide). Like so:
Pantone 348: 10 pts Pantone Pro. Blue, 6pts Pantone Yellow, 1/2 pt
Pantone Black
Pantone 369: 12pts Pantone Yellow, 4pts Pantone Pro. Blue, 1/4 Pantone Black
Or one color with black, the other without black, like Pantone 322
paired with Pantone 3275.
For lack of a better way to say it, at the least you'll know these
colors *should be* more sympatico.
Or, I could just be crazy annul;)
inez
C. Nielsen
"inez" <nez...@or.fact> skrev i en meddelelse news:fb1r9i$9tr$1...@aioe.org...
> Jim Webb wrote:
>> 2. More finicky: create the blend twice - first with one Pantone blending
>> to 0%, when paste a copy on top with the other Pantone blend going th
>> eother way (again, blending to 0%), and in the Attributes box check
>> 'Overprint' for the top object. View in 'Overprint Preview' mode to see
>> the result. If you check the separations in the print dialogue you will
>> see only the two colours will print - no CMYK.
>>
>> Jim Webb
>> Sudury
>>
>
> Yes, I find the above a much better option, though I don't put a lot of
> faith in the display preview for Pantones in general, much less a blend of
> two or more. If you're going to blend two separate Pantones instead of
> using tint percentages of the same Pantone, I'd take the additional
> logical step of chosing colors that share similar makeup (check your
> guide).
> inez
Thanks to everyone for your very informative answers. It helped me a lot.
It is a lot more complex area, than I imagine, and apparently very difficult
to be sure, what the colors will look like, once printed.
Ch. Nielsen
Manuel
Manuel Rivas
"C. Nielsen" <C.NielsenD...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46d3dcc0$0$67278$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
C. Nielsen
"Manuel" <man...@leucartoons.com>
>I do this all the time and it works, what problem are you having?
>
> Manuel Rivas
>
>> Do anyone know if it will be a problem for the printer with a pantone
>> gradient fill , will it look the same once printed ?
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Ch. Nielsen
My problem was that the gradient fill, turned itself into CMYK color if I
tryed to do anything with it. I have been trying out some different setting,
since I recently upgraded to CS3 - from illustrator 10, something must have
gone wrong.
I can make a gradient now with specific pantone colors. So fare so good. But
then a was told, that it couldn't be printet, because of the way the
pantone-colors are printet without rasters.
I you do it all the time, that can't be true. So is there a specific way to
save my illustrator file, that would make it perfect for printing.
Thanks, again.
Ch. Nielsen
inez
>
> My problem was that the gradient fill, turned itself into CMYK color if I
> tryed to do anything with it. I have been trying out some different setting,
> since I recently upgraded to CS3 - from illustrator 10, something must have
> gone wrong.
> I can make a gradient now with specific pantone colors. So fare so good. But
> then a was told, that it couldn't be printet, because of the way the
> pantone-colors are printet without rasters.
> I you do it all the time, that can't be true. So is there a specific way to
> save my illustrator file, that would make it perfect for printing.
>
> Thanks, again.
> Ch. Nielsen
>
>
I'm not understanding what you mean by "it couldn't be printed, because
of the way the pantone-colors are printed without rasters."
Are you talking about specific raster effects or what? You certainly can
print a Pantone spot raster image and/or a Pantone spot vector image.
Pantone spot gradients will print. With your previous scenario of one
color gradient over another color gradient to create a gradient blend
where they overlap; the one thing I would do is let the printer know
since they may want to adjust their screen angles for best results.
Now, if this job is going to a thermographer it could be problematic.
There are some limitations to screening for raised print. Knowing how
and when to communicate with the printer's prepress is the single most
important thing for print quality control that a designer must do. Make
first contact prior to designing the job to get their basic print
specifications. Learn to worship prepress since they are the ones who
deal with your file(s) and "make it so." Get a proof(s) that both you
and your client can sign off on. Beyond that, of course, the pressman
has to be on top of the job, but you have zero control over him unless
you can go to the press run.
When you have no contact with the printer you can only ask the print
intentions of your client and prepare your design for it to the best of
your ability, so you need to understand some prepress basics.
Can you upload a web image somewhere that would show us what you're
attempting to do? Barring that, give us more step-by-step details? Do
you have a solid understanding of the difference between Pantone solid
colors and Process color?
Manuel
no special way of doing this I usually just add the gradient fill to the
shape and then drag the spot colors to the little sliders in the gradient
window and print. If this is an issue with CS3 I would like to know so I
don't upgrade.
--
Manuel Rivas
"C. Nielsen" <C.NielsenD...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46d6df65$0$23734$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
C. Nielsen
"Manuel" <man...@leucartoons.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:xnGBi.24586$7e6....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Well I can't speak for CS3 since I have never used it, I have CS2 and I
> have no special way of doing this I usually just add the gradient fill to
> the shape and then drag the spot colors to the little sliders in the
> gradient window and print. If this is an issue with CS3 I would like to
> know so I don't upgrade.
>
> --
> Manuel Rivas
Don't worry, it must have a setting in my setup, it is working now.
Ch. Nielsen
inez
> "inez" <nez...@or.fact> skrev i en meddelelse news:fb6r8p$691$1...@aioe.org...
>> C. Nielsen wrote:
>>> I can make a gradient now with specific pantone colors. So fare so good.
>>> But
>>> then a was told, that it couldn't be printet, because of the way the
>>> pantone-colors are printet without rasters.
>>> I you do it all the time, that can't be true. So is there a specific way
>>> to save my illustrator file, that would make it perfect for printing.
>>>
>>> Thanks, again.
>>> Ch. Nielsen
>> I'm not understanding what you mean by "it couldn't be printed, because of
>> the way the pantone-colors are printed without rasters."
>> Are you talking about specific raster effects or what? You certainly can
>> print a Pantone spot raster image and/or a Pantone spot vector image.
>> Pantone spot gradients will print. With your previous scenario of one
>> color gradient over another color gradient to create a gradient blend
>> where they overlap; the one thing I would do is let the printer know since
>> they may want to adjust their screen angles for best results.
>
> have createde some problems, but also problems based on what other people
> that I thougth new better, told me. Basicly I know that cmyk colors are
> printet with 4 separat colors that mix to any other color by mixing small
> spots of the 4 colors + white from the paper. Pantone colors are printet
> with a premade one color substanse to ensure the exacte same color everytime
> it is used. I thought it was more smurge on, than made with small dots, and
> therefore good for rich colored areas.
> No I get the understanding that pantonecolors also are printet with small
> dots of color, the same way as cmyk.
Not exactly. You can solid blocks of a spot color printed, but areas
that are a lighter tint of the color will be made lighter with
dots/screen. The dots have nothing to do with making the Pantone spot
color though. A spot color is the ink color that's put on the press and
is more opaque that process colors. A spot color is one plate. They do
render richer colors than process color, but it also depends on the
paper used.
You're basically right about what process colors are. Four base colors;
cyan, magenta, yellow, black; are applied on four separate plates as
dots and the printing of these four plates on the same piece of paper
produces other colors.
Hey, we all have to start somewhere;) Give a commercial printer a call
and ask to set up a visit. Many are accommodating and will let you
follow a job from prepress through print.
>> Now, if this job is going to a thermographer it could be problematic.
>> There are some limitations to screening for raised print. Knowing how and
>> when to communicate with the printer's prepress is the single most
>> important thing for print quality control that a designer must do. Make
>> first contact prior to designing the job to get their basic print
>> specifications. Learn to worship prepress since they are the ones who deal
>> with your file(s) and "make it so." Get a proof(s) that both you and your
>> client can sign off on. Beyond that, of course, the pressman has to be on
>> top of the job, but you have zero control over him unless you can go to
>> the press run.
>
> Thank you. I think this is a very good adwise, that I am going to follow
> next time I have to do a print job.
>
>> When you have no contact with the printer you can only ask the print
>> intentions of your client and prepare your design for it to the best of
>> your ability, so you need to understand some prepress basics.
>>
>> Can you upload a web image somewhere that would show us what you're
>> attempting to do? Barring that, give us more step-by-step details? Do you
>> have a solid understanding of the difference between Pantone solid colors
>> and Process color?
> I can't say I do.
>
> Sorry, I can't show anything specific from this job. It is a company
> changing brand including several pantone colors. Before it was more like a 2
> color design, some of it is here :
> http://www.gekkographic.dk/den_hurtige/den_hurtige_1.htm - no. 28 - the
> pink icons
>
Hmm...so those are old and, well, they're just regular 1&2 color icons
with tints. So these don't illustrate what you're trying to do. I'm
afraid I really need a more detailed idea of what you're trying to do to
be able to help.
Do you own Pantone guides?...Coated/uncoated? If not, try to get at
least the coated/uncoated guide, even if it's a year or two old. There's
nothing better that seeing the actual ink color on paper. For books to
get you on the way, get the Pocket Pal (http://tinyurl.com/yosw6j) and
Getting it Printed.
inez
> Well I can't speak for CS3 since I have never used it, I have CS2 and I have
> no special way of doing this I usually just add the gradient fill to the
> shape and then drag the spot colors to the little sliders in the gradient
> window and print. If this is an issue with CS3 I would like to know so I
> don't upgrade.
>
Hi Manuel,
It's not only a question of being able to make a gradient of two spot
colors; often it's a question of should we make such a gradient and the
best way to get it to print predictably. Perhaps you've been very lucky
with your printing. How have your similar jobs been printed?
C. Nielsen
"inez" <nez...@or.fact> skrev i en meddelelse news:fb7rcv$jkh$1...@aioe.org...
> C. Nielsen wrote:
>> "inez" <nez...@or.fact> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:fb6r8p$691$1...@aioe.org...
> Hmm...so those are old and, well, they're just regular 1&2 color icons
> with tints. So these don't illustrate what you're trying to do. I'm afraid
> I really need a more detailed idea of what you're trying to do to be able
> to help.
>
> Do you own Pantone guides?...Coated/uncoated? If not, try to get at least
> the coated/uncoated guide, even if it's a year or two old. There's nothing
> better that seeing the actual ink color on paper. For books to get you on
> the way, get the Pocket Pal (http://tinyurl.com/yosw6j) and Getting it
> Printed.
I must say I'm so impresed with your long and detailed answers, it is a joy
and very helpfull.
I will get more information and a pantone guide, so that I whon't be in this
situation again. It has been a challenge, but learnfull ( if there are
something called that ).
I have finished the icons - short deadline as allways - and the customer was
happy.
Thanks again
Ch. Nielsen
inez
Glad to hear you were successful:) Design is a never ending learning
process because it encompasses so many sciences and technologies. We're
all still learning;)
I'm probably one of the least educated people in this group, but I've
been working at it for many moons. Another valuable newsgroup:
comp.publish.prepress
You're welcome,
inez
PS_if you join the other newsgroup just be sure to explain that you're a
designer who wishes to learn how to do things right for print. These
folks receive problematic files from designers on a daily basis, so
"designer" is not popular in the group. They will help if they know you
are sincere in your desire to learn and you ask intelligent, specific
questions. Don't be insulted by any slurs they sling at designers in
general. They need to vent;)
Manuel
output to film with an EPSON 3000, I use 40 to 35 lpi for the frequency and
25° angle. Then I burn my screens and print (screenprint). I use two to six
Pantone colors and sometimes I have many gradients and never had a problem.
--
Manuel Rivas
"inez" <nez...@or.fact> wrote in message news:fb7rkf$ki7$1...@aioe.org...
inez
> I output my separations on vellum using an HP 5000 printer, sometimes I
> output to film with an EPSON 3000, I use 40 to 35 lpi for the frequency and
> 25° angle. Then I burn my screens and print (screenprint). I use two to six
> Pantone colors and sometimes I have many gradients and never had a problem.
That's because your colors are being converted (probably to CMYK to
machine sRGB) and are no longer spot colors. Somewhat different than
prepping files for a commercial offset press.
Manuel
and they separate as spot colors, and they stay as spot colors. I don't see
why or how prepping files for commercial offset press would be different. I
used to take my files to be separated at a prepress service place some time
ago and never had problems with spot colors being converted to CMYK.
--
Manuel Rivas
"inez" <nez...@or.fact> wrote in message news:fba0vi$ia2$1...@aioe.org...
inez
> I don't understand, my colors are not being converted, they are spot colors
> and they separate as spot colors, and they stay as spot colors. I don't see
> why or how prepping files for commercial offset press would be different. I
> used to take my files to be separated at a prepress service place some time
> ago and never had problems with spot colors being converted to CMYK.
>
They are being converted when you print from you HP or Epson. I'm sure
the original files will separate at a service bureau or printer, but
blending spot colors can be very tricky. What you see on screen may be
can be far different than what you see on screen, even with very good
screen calibration and color management. Your color printer profiles may
be set up so that your inkjets give you acceptable color proofs. But you
had the advantage of dealing with a service bureau. They made your files
work. Many small print shops won't go through the trouble.
However, C. Nielson seems to be completely new to spot color work and is
inexperienced with print processes. One might doubt that the monitor is
calibrated for print. Also, he/she has no Pantone guides and therefore
has no true idea what these inks look like on paper. Blending spot
colors because they look good on screen is very tricky business, doubly
so if you are inexperienced and not particularly set up for it. I have
no idea what you produce, how color critical it is, or who does how much
work on your files prior to print, but C. Nielson does not have your
advantages. Therefore it's much better to advise caution that allow
him/her to just assume it will work. Many clients these days have no
idea of where they're going to have things printed and want to control
that choice, so designers need to act somewhat as their own prepress so
that if the files end up in the hands of the cheapest, sloppiest print
house, they still have some chance of getting printed decently for the
client. After all, printers will, when given the chance, blame the
designer when something goes wrong with the job. I want my clients to be
pleased, and I want to be able to defend my work if it is attacked by
some miscellaneous printer. After all, they don't want to eat the print
job, and they know the client doesn't know any better. It's up to us to
know better;)
Just my 2 cents,
inez
Manuel
and my Epson is an inkjet and I don't use them to output color proofs, I use
them to output BW separations and the separations that I get are the actual
spot colors separated to different plates. When I output, the CMY colors are
grayed out and only the black and the sopt colors are selected to print. No
conversion, believe me.
The original question was:
***********
In illustrator CS3 , I have a problem creating a gradient with 2 different
pantone process solid colors ( a dark and a light green ) even if I choose
the colors from the pantone libery it won't work.
Do enyone know how to make a gradient fill with 2 pantone colors ?
************
I do gradient fills with 2 and three Pantone colors on a daily basis and I
have never had a problem with them, I though that C. Nielsen's problem was
the spot colors being converted to CMYK, like drawing a circle and filling
it with a gradient that goes from Pantone 300 to Pantone 355 and next time
you click the circle the colors are no longer Pantone but CMYK. That's why I
asked if this was an issue with CS3 since many suggested weird workarounds
like going from one spot color to a tint of the same color and then
overprinting another gradient also going from one color to a tint of the
same color on top of it. I don't have to do this in CS2 I go from one color
to a different color (both spot colors) and I get the right separations all
the time.
thanks
Manuel
inez
Sorry, I wasn't catching that you were doing your own separations by
laser. I think most of us are not doing our own seps since we send our
files electronically to various print shops. I send separated spot PDFs
to one print house, but these are just 1 Spot plus Black, though I do
use overprints and multi-ink blends to get more range from tints to
shades and solids.
I know that, depending on version (possibly other things), an
Illustrator file with such gradient objects can convert to CMYK if saved
to PDF. Importing/placing into layout programs and running through
postscript to PDF might also be unpredictable.
The workaround mentioned isn't weird at all though. It's sort of like
pre-separating and, with overprint preview, *might* offer a *somewhat*
better view of what the final press print may look like. It assures that
if it saved as PDF, or imported to a layout program and sent to
postscript/PDF, it should separate at the print shops end, whether RIPed
to film or direct to plate. But to me, the biggest part of the guess
work is the actual blending of such a gradient that will render
predictable colors. Since C. Nielson doesn't even have color guides,
what happens on screen could be widely different from what happens in
final print.
I think the OP was able to make the gradient your way after another go
at it, but I still don't know if it's advisable for the circumstances. I
don't know where or how those icons/logos might get placed/imported or
in which app(s), or how they'll finally be output. So, still tricky.
Manuel
Manuel Rivas
macbook
<C.NielsenD...@hotmail.com> said:
Offset printing uses AM printing and your in-house printer is obviously
using FM (stochastic printing)
There's no way you can predict 100% what an offset press will offer as
a gradient nor can you match what you print on your epson to the final
product, especially ones that use gradients with minor tonal changes
from start to finish.
--
Cheers,
MacBook