My website is up.
The Man-Like Madness
http://www.darksites.com/souls/goth/goblin108/index.html
GOBLIN
==================================
Childbirth isn't natural. We're not supposed to give birth. We're supposed
to live forever. We're supposed to be in a Garden right now, leaning
against a tree, naming animals. The fact that you don't know the name of
every animal tells me something. We left the garden too soon. Whats that?
"I don't know" It's a wombat, go back to the Garden. -Bill Hicks
Quemaqua
Took a look for a bit... pretty good shite.
Thanks for sharing.
Peace,
Que
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Sure could use a vacation from this stupid shit."
- Tool
The Man-Like Madness
Quemaqua wrote in message ...
>Real nice site, Goblin.
>Took a look for a bit... pretty good shite.
>Thanks for sharing.
Hey, thanks.
And I was expecting flames.
exile
> Quemaqua wrote in message ...
> >Real nice site, Goblin.
> >Took a look for a bit... pretty good shite.
> >Thanks for sharing.
>
> Hey, thanks.
It is a nice site... strange provider though.
> And I was expecting flames.
Whatever for?
--
{exile} - http://www.freespeech.org/apophysis {v6.o} - ICQ# 47439354
"Throw me the shadows of your life."
B. Mackenzie
Cory Strode
news:s1n99d...@corp.supernews.com...
Actually, I won't flame it. It a nice personal website, although I would
like more content. Of course, I think everyone should throw a lot of their
personal writing on their webpages, even if it isn't any good. It lets you
get some people who will tell you what you are doing wrong who aren't your
friends who just want to tell you how ggreat you are.
On the page about you, you work with the text so that it doesn't run down
the page so narrowly. Other than that....
Anyway, I can't flame someone who uses a Bill Hicks quote. He was the King,
no matter what Elvis fans say.
--
Cory!! Strode, The Best Dressed Man In Comics
Solitai...@worldnet.att.net
"That which doesn't kill you makes you miserable, bitter and cynical."
Visit my webpage at: www.SolitaireRose.com
AOHell Messinger name RoseSeule1
Like you care.
The Man-Like Madness
>> >Real nice site, Goblin.
>> >Took a look for a bit... pretty good shite.
>> >Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> Hey, thanks.
>
> It is a nice site... strange provider though.
Well, I can't use my provider and my own webspace, because I'm using that to
run a site for my parent's buisness..and it was free, an easy to set-up, and
I don't mind the intrusive little bat and top menu bar anywhere near as much
as mind tripod and geocities obnoxious little mini-window crap.
>> And I was expecting flames.
>
> Whatever for?
This is alt.gothic. You figure it out.
GOBLIN
==================================
If your children speak to you in Latin or any other language which they
should not know, or if they speak to you using a voice which is other than
their own, shoot them immediately. It will save you a lot of grief in the
long run. NOTE: It will probably take several rounds to kill them, so be
prepared.
The Man-Like Madness
>> http://www.darksites.com/souls/goth/goblin108/index.html
>
>Actually, I won't flame it. It a nice personal website, although I would
>like more content. Of course, I think everyone should throw a lot of their
>personal writing on their webpages, even if it isn't any good. It lets you
>get some people who will tell you what you are doing wrong who aren't your
>friends who just want to tell you how ggreat you are.
Yeah, I plan to add more as time goes on, but I'm never sure about adding
personal writings...I mean, who really cares what I think?
>On the page about you, you work with the text so that it doesn't run down
>the page so narrowly. Other than that....
But I really like that look. And dammit, do you have any idea how long it
took me to get that to work right? That's the first time I've ever used
tables. They are SUCH a PAIN in the ASS. Better than frames tho.
>Anyway, I can't flame someone who uses a Bill Hicks quote. He was the
King,
>no matter what Elvis fans say.
Hell yeah. Too bad he's dead.
The Man-Like Madness
>You don't look like what I imagined.
What did you think I looked like?
>Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
>No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
I'm goign to as soon as I get a new job and some mad money. I've got about
ten drawing set aside that are scannable size, and they're gonna go up as
soon as I have $15 for Kinkos.
GOBLIN
==================================from the sufi
Mullah Nasrudin once entered a store and asked
the proprietor, "Have you seen me before?"
"No," was the prompt answer.
"Then," cried Nasrudin, "How do you know it is me?"
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Let the flaming begin.
>
>http://www.darksites.com/souls/goth/goblin108/index.html
You don't look like what I imagined.
Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
Alain.
diathesis
1999 19:09:08 -0000):
: Let the flaming begin.
well, if you insist. ;)
actually, my only comment that is remotely flame-like is that the
navigational system is somewhat odd. it's fairly functional, but it's
still odd. doesn't operate in a manner that i entirely understand or
agree with, but i did manage to find my way around nonetheless, perhaps
because there were so few pages in total.
other than that, reasonably well done.
- diathesis
--
diathesis "that which does not kill us makes us stranger"
http://www.synecdoche.com/
Hagdrisil
>>> http://www.darksites.com/souls/goth/goblin108/index.html
To add to the complements of others, well made page.
Deffinately better than mine was when I first put it together.
>>On the page about you, you work with the text so that it doesn't
>>run down the page so narrowly. Other than that....
>But I really like that look. And dammit, do you have any idea how
>long it took me to get that to work right? That's the first time
>I've ever used tables. They are SUCH a PAIN in the ASS.
I've used tables through out my entire pages. I used Netscrape
Comunicator to build them, it makes quick work of roughing out the
html. Then sometimes I go back and pollish up the details with
notepad.
I had a copy of MS front page installed a month or so ago. I think I
tried to do all of 3 things with it before I decided that I hated it.
> Better
>than frames tho.
Frames do have their place, such as providing an index for breaking
up large volumes of information into short, bite-sized pieces.
Hagdrisil
--
* ICQ# 21297130 * http://www.magma.ca/~mboland/ *
hagd...@magma.ca(RAZY)
"No one ever listens to Zathras, Quite mad they say,
It is good that Zathras dose not mind,
Has even grown to like it, oh yes."
-- Zathras, Babylon 5
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Alain wrote in message <38211175...@news.planet-int.net>...
>>You don't look like what I imagined.
>
>What did you think I looked like?
To be sincere, I thought you would have been the kind to take grrrreat
care of his appearance, involving highly professional make-up, an
obsessively maintained long hairdo, and would have opted for a very
glamour look, involving thick velvet and many yards of lace and some
mousseline. Something in the charismatic-sect-leader/cheesy rockstar
vein.
>>Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
>>No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
>
>I'm goign to as soon as I get a new job and some mad money. I've got about
>ten drawing set aside that are scannable size, and they're gonna go up as
>soon as I have $15 for Kinkos.
Ah, if only we lived in the same place. We could put my cheap, but
functional, digital cam to good use. I wonder if there aren't any
local (local to *you* that is) a.g. poster/lurker who could do it for
you AND for free, naturally.
Alain.
The Man-Like Madness
>>What did you think I looked like?
>
>To be sincere, I thought you would have been the kind to take grrrreat
>care of his appearance, involving highly professional make-up, an
>obsessively maintained long hairdo, and would have opted for a very
>glamour look, involving thick velvet and many yards of lace and some
>mousseline. Something in the charismatic-sect-leader/cheesy rockstar
>vein.
HAH HAH HAH!!!
Really? Wow. I probably would look like that too, if I wasn't so apathetic
and poor.
Oh, and I have very wavy hair, so if I let it grow out, it turns into Farrah
fawcett hair, which looks really weird on a guy.
>>>Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
>>>No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
>>
>>I'm goign to as soon as I get a new job and some mad money. I've got
about
>>ten drawing set aside that are scannable size, and they're gonna go up as
>>soon as I have $15 for Kinkos.
>
>Ah, if only we lived in the same place. We could put my cheap, but
>functional, digital cam to good use. I wonder if there aren't any
>local (local to *you* that is) a.g. poster/lurker who could do it for
>you AND for free, naturally.
That would be cool. But Kinko's is easy enough. It'll actually only be a
few days, depending on my mood. I have the money right now, but I may
decided to buy food instead. It's always a tough choice: eat or art? eat or
art?
The Man-Like Madness
>Quoth the The Man-Like Madness/mka...@speakeasy.net (on Sat, 30 Oct
>1999 19:09:08 -0000):
>: Let the flaming begin.
>
>well, if you insist. ;)
>
>actually, my only comment that is remotely flame-like is that the
>navigational system is somewhat odd. it's fairly functional, but it's
>still odd. doesn't operate in a manner that i entirely understand or
>agree with, but i did manage to find my way around nonetheless, perhaps
>because there were so few pages in total.
>
>other than that, reasonably well done.
Odd navigation huh?
I suppose it could be a little more friendly.
Thank's for the feedback. :)
Quemaqua
Alain <ala...@planet-int.net> wrote in message
news:38211175...@news.planet-int.net...
> Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
> No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
Yeah, I agree.
Would like to see some of it.
Peace,
Que
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"What the fuck did you say?"
- Sevendust
The Man-Like Madness
<7vnT3.1076$cn1....@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>...
>> Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
>> No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
>
>Yeah, I agree.
>Would like to see some of it.
Umm...oh boy.
Don't everyone go getting your hopes up.
I'm not that great of artist.
The Man-Like Madness
>>Wow. I probably would look like that too, if I wasn't so apathetic
>>and poor.
>
>what I had previously imagined. I knew that you were short on bucks, I
>simply thought you would put too much importance in the previously
>mentioned details to consider being short on money as a reasonable
>reason to abstain from doing so. Ah, apathy. Terrible thing, eh?
>I'm victim of it.
Well, there's also the fact that I am NOT a lace-n-frills sort of guy. If I
could afford to dress anyway I wanted (and could afford time at a gym, and a
proper diet so that i'd look good in these clothes) I dress like Keanu in
"The Matrix". That's badass. I want an entire wardrobe made of PVC, black
leather, and SHINY polyester. ::drool::
>>Oh, and I have very wavy hair, so if I let it grow out, it turns into
Farrah
>>fawcett hair, which looks really weird on a guy.
>
>I don't remember what she looks like, but I can imagine.
Yeah, when I was 15, and couldn't quite swing the entire facial hair thing,
and had long hair, I'd get mistaken for a girl. I have very pretty eyes
apparently. It throws people off.
>>That would be cool. But Kinko's is easy enough. It'll actually only be a
>>few days, depending on my mood. I have the money right now, but I may
>>decided to buy food instead. It's always a tough choice: eat or art? eat
or
>>art?
>
>Easy. Less food. Or cheaper food.
>With enough coffee and smokes, I could run a whole day with a can of
>raviolis or anything similarly cheap.
My regular diet is: A pack of cigarettes, two two-liter bottles of Mountain
Dew, and something microwaveable.
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Alain wrote in message <382c4859...@news.planet-int.net>...
>>>What did you think I looked like?
>>
>>To be sincere, I thought you would have been the kind to take grrrreat
>>care of his appearance, involving highly professional make-up, an
>>obsessively maintained long hairdo, and would have opted for a very
>>glamour look, involving thick velvet and many yards of lace and some
>>mousseline. Something in the charismatic-sect-leader/cheesy rockstar
>>vein.
>
>HAH HAH HAH!!!
heh.
>Really?
Yes.
>Wow. I probably would look like that too, if I wasn't so apathetic
>and poor.
But, *that* is the true difference. That's what doesn't match with
what I had previously imagined. I knew that you were short on bucks, I
simply thought you would put too much importance in the previously
mentioned details to consider being short on money as a reasonable
reason to abstain from doing so. Ah, apathy. Terrible thing, eh?
I'm victim of it.
>Oh, and I have very wavy hair, so if I let it grow out, it turns into Farrah
>fawcett hair, which looks really weird on a guy.
I don't remember what she looks like, but I can imagine.
>>Ah, if only we lived in the same place. We could put my cheap, but
>>functional, digital cam to good use. I wonder if there aren't any
>>local (local to *you* that is) a.g. poster/lurker who could do it for
>>you AND for free, naturally.
>
>That would be cool. But Kinko's is easy enough. It'll actually only be a
>few days, depending on my mood. I have the money right now, but I may
>decided to buy food instead. It's always a tough choice: eat or art? eat or
>art?
Easy. Less food. Or cheaper food.
With enough coffee and smokes, I could run a whole day with a can of
raviolis or anything similarly cheap.
Alain.
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Quemaqua wrote in message
><7vnT3.1076$cn1....@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>...
>>> Try to put some photos of your artwork on it.
>>> No need to be professionally done, you know? Just a few shots, hmm?
>>
>>Yeah, I agree.
>>Would like to see some of it.
>
>Umm...oh boy.
>
>Don't everyone go getting your hopes up.
>
>I'm not that great of artist.
Don't worry. I have no expectations.
I only believe in what I see.
Alain.
oddlystrange
I could go all gothicwebpagesthatsuck on you, however given our past
history that would prolly not really accomplish anything...
So...
The good: The graphics are nice. I like the little band. I like how it
is offset from the side. This is a nice visual touch. You color choices
are spot on -- they get along very well and are easy to read and all
that stuff.
In other words you have half the battle down.
The bad...
I don't know if you used an html editor for these pages or not. However
if you did you need to go out and find a new editor because the layout
is mungled. If this is intentional... ehhh.... I don't know what to
say... sometimes you make a statement you never intended to make.
OK... a quick lesson in user interface... consistancy is good. You'll
lose "viewers" at your site if there isn't a familiar navigation system.
Your site is lacking this. I get to one pages and have to look at the
bottom to get elsewhere, on another page its the top, and on another its
the side.
After a while people are going to start feeling lost and/or tricked by
your site and they're going to leave. Only the people who are there for
a reason along the lines of knowing you personally and not wanting to
offend you are going to stay.
What I'd do -- and you're welcome not to and think of your own site
navigation is leave the writing down the side like you have it, but
align it with the top of the page -- and always have that side
navigation go to the top teirs of your side (i.e. home, about me, links,
etc.).
I'd also do the "iconic blur" that you have on the main graphic for each
section and allow that to be a guide to where you are -- in other words
when you're in the "poems" section the poems would be on that little
pendant and blurred while "home" would appear "normal"
These are just a few very subtle things that you can do that will REALLY
improve the readability of your site.
oddlystrange
(who's been doing this all day today... well all day yesterday... its
now the next morning) :)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - -
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
oddlystrange
"The Man-Like Madness" <mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> Yeah, I plan to add more as time goes on, but I'm never sure about
adding
> personal writings...I mean, who really cares what I think?
Its a weird thing, for a long time my site was very impersonal (its a
wreck right now, whether personal or not... I need to upload the update,
but its not in that condition yet.... anyhoooo)
Uh... Oh yeah... For a long time I left my site as a collection of
photography tips, mac help stuff and things like that... and it did
moderately well -- I'd put the traffic in a steady low range (about 60
or so visitors a day give or take the random "We choose you as site o
the day" spikes...)
Then I started making it more personal. Put up the autobiography and
since then traffic is considerably higher.
This is amazing since if you ask me (and anyone who remembers my site
prior to the addition of the autobiography) is that there's *less*
content now. But its content that you cannot find anywhere else.
And that's what is the difference on a personal homepage. No one else is
going to have *YOU* on their site. Remember that.
> But I really like that look.
I don't have a problem with the narrow tables at all. Its an interesting
look, and you're not a professional or business site and that means
you're welcome to go for a look that would get slammed elsewhere.
> And dammit, do you have any idea how long it
> took me to get that to work right? That's the first time I've ever
used
> tables. They are SUCH a PAIN in the ASS. Better than frames tho.
I have yet to build anything other than a long document site that used
frames. Learn that art of tables though. They are the only way to really
get decent layout. Eventually you'll be able to think the design of a
page in tables.
There's some nifty tabling tricks out there too that will get you
bordered boxes and patterned backgrounds. Keep playing with them.
oddlystrange
(who doesn't know what platform you're on -- though I'd assume windows
because of the alignment on your page -- but I'd look into a text editor
with HTML plugs to fiddle with tables with all the attributes they have)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - - -
The Man-Like Madness
Hey first off, thank you for all the very constructive criticism. This is
exactly what I was hopin for.
>I could go all gothicwebpagesthatsuck on you, however given our past
>history that would prolly not really accomplish anything...
>
>So...
>
>The good: The graphics are nice. I like the little band. I like how it
>is offset from the side. This is a nice visual touch. You color choices
>are spot on -- they get along very well and are easy to read and all
>that stuff.
Well, graphic design is my forte. It's everything esle that gives me a
headache.
>In other words you have half the battle down.
>
>The bad...
>
>I don't know if you used an html editor for these pages or not. However
>if you did you need to go out and find a new editor because the layout
>is mungled. If this is intentional... ehhh.... I don't know what to
>say... sometimes you make a statement you never intended to make.
No, I don't have any htnl editing programs. I just used notepad, a book on
web design, and IE. If you can recommend a good, free editor, I'd use it.
I have MS Publisher, which I use for DTP. It does web pages, but I feel
that it over-formats them, and it's can't handle transparent graphics, which
I love to death and refuse to give up. :)
>OK... a quick lesson in user interface... consistancy is good. You'll
>lose "viewers" at your site if there isn't a familiar navigation system.
>Your site is lacking this. I get to one pages and have to look at the
>bottom to get elsewhere, on another page its the top, and on another its
>the side.
So you think all the pages should be cross-accesible? I think I can swing
that. On the poetry page, I figured that people might get bored, so there's
that string of "Top" along the side so that you can jump back to the top of
the document without scrolling for years. I mean, that's a long ass file.
It's only going to get bigger two, since I have another ten opages of poems
to add. I may make several pages, divided by theme.
>What I'd do -- and you're welcome not to and think of your own site
>navigation is leave the writing down the side like you have it, but
>align it with the top of the page -- and always have that side
>navigation go to the top teirs of your side (i.e. home, about me, links,
>etc.).
Okay.
>I'd also do the "iconic blur" that you have on the main graphic for each
>section and allow that to be a guide to where you are -- in other words
>when you're in the "poems" section the poems would be on that little
>pendant and blurred while "home" would appear "normal"
That is an excellent idea. I think I'm going to do just that.
>These are just a few very subtle things that you can do that will REALLY
>improve the readability of your site.
Thanks again for the very useful advice.
GOBLIN
==================================
There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio. What is sacred?
Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? And what is worth
dying for? The answer to each is the same: only love. -Don Juan De Marco
Hagdrisil
>No, I don't have any htnl editing programs. I just used notepad,
>a book on web design, and IE. If you can recommend a good, free
>editor, I'd use it. I have MS Publisher, which I use for DTP. It
>does web pages, but I feel that it over-formats them, and it's
>can't handle transparent graphics, which I love to death and
>refuse to give up. :)
Netscape comunicator. It has an editor built in, does transparent
gifs and tables are a breeze.
It's free and available just about everywhere.
Hagdrsisil
(Ya so Netscrape is evil, it's better than Frontpage, 'Scrape is free
and it's mildly user friendly.)
exile
> web design, and IE. If you can recommend a good, free editor, I'd use it.
http://nonags/advancenet.net/index.html
Go to Freeware/Browse/Html Editors
Go with the 6 duck editors. I know Coldmind Hydrascript is excellent
and Arachnophilia kicks ass even if it does take the text approach.
--
{exile} - http://www.freespeech.org/apophysis {v6.1} - ICQ# 47439354
exile
>
> Netscape comunicator. It has an editor built in, does transparent
> gifs and tables are a breeze.
>
> It's free and available just about everywhere.
It munges your code to hell... go with Arachnophilia.
exile
> exile scribed in <m3904gc...@21stcentury.net>:
> >hagd...@SSHI.org (Hagdrisil) writes:
> >> Netscape comunicator. It has an editor built in, does transparent
> >> gifs and tables are a breeze.
> >>
> >> It's free and available just about everywhere.
> >
> > It munges your code to hell... go with Arachnophilia.
>
> I have never heard of this one, do you have a URL? and is it free?
> (Important seeing as my budget is aimed at a cd-rw right now)
:} You would do that right after I clear all the buffers.
http://nonags.advancenet.net/index.html
Go to Freeware/browse//html editors
oddlystrange
>
> Hey first off, thank you for all the very constructive criticism.
This is
> exactly what I was hopin for.
No problem. I do this all day at work now so I'm getting more in the
habit of "what can be better" than pointing out what's wrong.
> Well, graphic design is my forte. It's everything esle that gives me
a
> headache.
Well like I said, you're winning awards for color choices there :)
> No, I don't have any htnl editing programs. I just used notepad, a
book on
> web design, and IE. If you can recommend a good, free editor, I'd use
it.
I don't know the PeeCee well enough. I have software that my company
buys for me on my PeeCee and I still use BBedit on my Mac. However, I've
learned that dictionaries are the way to go on html by hand. There are a
lot out there, just go to your favorite coffee & a book place grab a few
of them and site down and pour over one. There HAS to be one that clicks
with you.
(bad pun I know)
Anyhoo...
One area you could work on is tables... but you already admitted that
you're still figuring your way around them. If you think visually just
think like this "Tables inside tables."
The easiest way I know of to get a page from the brain to the browser is
to chunk it up into its tables beforehand and then fit the elements in.
I can't explain this in text... damnit...
> I have MS Publisher, which I use for DTP. It does web pages, but I
feel
> that it over-formats them, and it's can't handle transparent graphics,
which
> I love to death and refuse to give up. :)
Avoid anything with the word "Microsoft" on it when it comes to making
web pages and you'll do fine.
> So you think all the pages should be cross-accesible?
Not necessarily. That's kinda a "do what you feel is best" kind of
thing. I was thinking more that the "escape" hatches should always be in
the same space -- on the side, top, or bottom of the page. That way when
you're done looking at it you don't have to hunt around for the next
thing to do.
For example the button that takes you back to the main page should
always be in the top right of the screen. If you're going to decide to
put it there.
> I think I can swing
> that. On the poetry page, I figured that people might get bored, so
there's
> that string of "Top" along the side so that you can jump back to the
top of
> the document without scrolling for years.
Hrmmm on my browser most of the poems could be read without scrolling.
Then again I've got my screen set at a very unholy resolution.
> That is an excellent idea. I think I'm going to do just that.
woo-hoo!
(sorry I occassionally get that "I win!" feeling when someone follows my
advice) :)
oddlystrange
(who says thanks for listening)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >---
Hagdrisil
>hagd...@SSHI.org (Hagdrisil) writes:
>>
>> Netscape comunicator. It has an editor built in, does transparent
>> gifs and tables are a breeze.
>>
>> It's free and available just about everywhere.
>
> It munges your code to hell... go with Arachnophilia.
I have never heard of this one, do you have a URL? and is it free?
(Important seeing as my budget is aimed at a cd-rw right now)
Hagdrisil
Hagdrisil
I answered both of my own questions :)
>> No, I don't have any htnl editing programs. I just used
>> notepad, a book on web design, and IE. If you can recommend a
>> good, free editor, I'd use it.
> http://nonags/advancenet.net/index.html
> Go to Freeware/Browse/Html Editors
> Go with the 6 duck editors. I know Coldmind Hydrascript is
> excellent and Arachnophilia kicks ass even if it does take the
> text approach.
I'm dl'ing both. Now for food...... and coffee, can't forget the
coffee!
Hagdrisil
(Coffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffee!)
Hagdrisil
>>> It munges your code to hell... go with Arachnophilia.
>>
>> I have never heard of this one, do you have a URL? and is it
>> free? (Important seeing as my budget is aimed at a cd-rw right
>> now)
> :} You would do that right after I clear all the buffers.
Murphys law ;-) it's everywhere!
> http://nonags.advancenet.net/index.html
It gave me an error. I took a wild guess and tried www.nonags.com and
it worked
> Go to Freeware/browse//html editors
I dl'ed both of the ones you recomended in another post.
Now It's of To Snortin Timmies[1] for coffee!
Hagdrisil
[1] Tim Hortins. ;)
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Well, there's also the fact that I am NOT a lace-n-frills sort of guy.
So your genre is completely different from what I thought.
>If I
>could afford to dress anyway I wanted (and could afford time at a gym, and a
>proper diet so that i'd look good in these clothes)
True. That kind of stuff doesn't tolerate love handles or a blubber
tire. But more than cash, it's will that you need to cut in the lard.
Personally, I'm like a yo-yo in this domain.
>I dress like Keanu in
>"The Matrix". That's badass. I want an entire wardrobe made of PVC, black
>leather, and SHINY polyester. ::drool::
I like thick rubber, leather, too, and basic stuff to go under it.
Such a t-shirts and jeans. Yet, I could sport leather or similarly
thick rubber on my butt, too. I liked the boots in that flick. No, I
didn't seen it, just the ads.
>Yeah, when I was 15, and couldn't quite swing the entire facial hair thing,
>and had long hair, I'd get mistaken for a girl.
Must be annoying at long, eh?
>I have very pretty eyes
>apparently. It throws people off.
Some people used to think so of my eyes. In the end, I found out they
were sight impaired (the people) and that my eyes are just kind of
piercing, but definitively not "pretty".
>My regular diet is: A pack of cigarettes, two two-liter bottles of Mountain
>Dew, and something microwaveable.
If you convert yer mountain dew to the version that has fake sugar in
it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and, rapidly,
will get used to the taste.
Alain.
The Man-Like Madness
>>a book on web design, and IE. If you can recommend a good, free
>>does web pages, but I feel that it over-formats them, and it's
>>can't handle transparent graphics, which I love to death and
>>refuse to give up. :)
>
>gifs and tables are a breeze.
>
>It's free and available just about everywhere.
You're kidding me.
Well fuck, that's it, I'm switching.
The Man-Like Madness
>> Well, graphic design is my forte. It's everything esle that gives me a
>> headache.
>
>Well like I said, you're winning awards for color choices there :)
You just have no idea how tickled I am to hear you say that. It tookk a
long tiem to come up with. I looked at a million goth pages, and ruled out
reds and blues as overdone, and blood/gore was right out, but I wanted
somethign spooky. But not too spooky, more a mellow, haunting sppoky. So I
thought...Autumn! And I think that page verily screams "It's autumn.
Relax." I want to run sound on it as well, but I'm having trouble getting
the sound file small enought o make it less-than-incredibly-obnoxious.
>I don't know the PeeCee well enough. I have software that my company
>buys for me on my PeeCee and I still use BBedit on my Mac. However, I've
>learned that dictionaries are the way to go on html by hand. There are a
>lot out there, just go to your favorite coffee & a book place grab a few
>of them and site down and pour over one. There HAS to be one that clicks
>with you.
I have the Webmaster's Professional Reference, but I've only read like forty
page sof it. tech manuals give me a headache, but I'm plodding through it
slowly.
>(bad pun I know)
>
>Anyhoo...
>
>One area you could work on is tables... but you already admitted that
>you're still figuring your way around them. If you think visually just
>think like this "Tables inside tables."
Is that possible, tables within tables?
Which is better to use, percentage based widths, or fixed widths? I have no
idea what the standard screenwidth is, or any of that stuff, which makes
designing this stuff hard.
>The easiest way I know of to get a page from the brain to the browser is
>to chunk it up into its tables beforehand and then fit the elements in.
>
>I can't explain this in text... damnit...
Boy, I know that feeling.
>> I have MS Publisher, which I use for DTP. It does web pages, but I
>feel
>> that it over-formats them, and it's can't handle transparent graphics,
>which
>> I love to death and refuse to give up. :)
>
>Avoid anything with the word "Microsoft" on it when it comes to making
>web pages and you'll do fine.
Simpler to say: Avoid anything with the word "Microsoft" on it and you'll do
fine.
>> So you think all the pages should be cross-accesible?
>
>Not necessarily. That's kinda a "do what you feel is best" kind of
>thing. I was thinking more that the "escape" hatches should always be in
>the same space -- on the side, top, or bottom of the page. That way when
>you're done looking at it you don't have to hunt around for the next
>thing to do.
>
>For example the button that takes you back to the main page should
>always be in the top right of the screen. If you're going to decide to
>put it there.
Oh, okay, i think i get what you're saying.
>Hrmmm on my browser most of the poems could be read without scrolling.
>Then again I've got my screen set at a very unholy resolution.
Yikes. All of them? I have to scroll forever on my pitiful little monitor.
>> That is an excellent idea. I think I'm going to do just that.
>
>woo-hoo!
>(sorry I occassionally get that "I win!" feeling when someone follows my
>advice) :)
Who doesn't? :)
>oddlystrange
>
>(who says thanks for listening)
Thanks for taking the time to say somehting worth listening to!
The Man-Like Madness
>>Well, there's also the fact that I am NOT a lace-n-frills sort of guy.
>
>So your genre is completely different from what I thought.
I'm trying to figure out what gave you that impression, and I'm at a loss.
>>If I
>>could afford to dress anyway I wanted (and could afford time at a gym, and
a
>>proper diet so that i'd look good in these clothes)
>
>True. That kind of stuff doesn't tolerate love handles or a blubber
>tire. But more than cash, it's will that you need to cut in the lard.
>Personally, I'm like a yo-yo in this domain.
Yo-yo. Yep, that's me.
>>I'd dress like Keanu in
>>"The Matrix". That's badass. I want an entire wardrobe made of PVC,
black
>>leather, and SHINY polyester. ::drool::
>
>I like thick rubber, leather, too, and basic stuff to go under it.
>Such a t-shirts and jeans. Yet, I could sport leather or similarly
>thick rubber on my butt, too. I liked the boots in that flick. No, I
>didn't seen it, just the ads.
Ooh, it's good, you should see it.
>>Yeah, when I was 15, and couldn't quite swing the entire facial hair
thing,
>>and had long hair, I'd get mistaken for a girl.
>
>Must be annoying at long, eh?
Never annoyed me overmuch, found it more funny than annoying really.
>>I have very pretty eyes
>>apparently. It throws people off.
>
>Some people used to think so of my eyes. In the end, I found out they
>were sight impaired (the people) and that my eyes are just kind of
>piercing, but definitively not "pretty".
Well, my eyes garner me more compliments than anything else, so i asume they
are nice looking.
>>My regular diet is: A pack of cigarettes, two two-liter bottles of
Mountain
>>Dew, and something microwaveable.
>
>If you convert yer mountain dew to the version that has fake sugar in
>it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and, rapidly,
>will get used to the taste.
Blech. But I luv the sugar. Sugar makes me hyper.
oddlystrange
"The Man-Like Madness" <mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> You just have no idea how tickled I am to hear you say that. It tookk
a
> long tiem to come up with. I looked at a million goth pages, and
ruled out
> reds and blues as overdone, and blood/gore was right out, but I wanted
> somethign spooky.
I agree. I'm tired of red text on a blak background, purple text on a
black background and the like. That's prolly what appealed to me about
your pick was it was refreshing :)
> I want to run sound on it as well, but I'm having trouble getting
> the sound file small enought o make it less-than-incredibly-obnoxious.
I have issues with sound files embedded into pages, but it seems to be
quickly becoming the norm.
> I have the Webmaster's Professional Reference, but I've only read like
forty
> page sof it. tech manuals give me a headache, but I'm plodding
through it
> slowly.
I lucked out. When I read all the way through a "How to use html" book
it was when tables were the newest thing on the block. THe book wasn't
very big... and since then its just been adding onto that knowledge.
> Is that possible, tables within tables?
Oh yes. I don't know where I'd be today without that ability. Just
remember that you can only put a table within one CELL of another table
for instance:
<TABLE>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE> All the elements of this new table must be placed
here and the table ended before the close TR or TD from the original
table.
</TABLE>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
> Which is better to use, percentage based widths, or fixed widths?
There's no right or wrong answer to this question. A few things to keep
in mind -- text is usually best read at a width of about 400 pixels.
ABOUT... What I do is generally if the content of the cell is to contain
a lot of text is make that cell a fixed width and everything around it
percentage.
You can use both in a table just not for the same cell.
> I have no
> idea what the standard screenwidth is, or any of that stuff, which
makes
> designing this stuff hard.
Well there's the rub of web design. At least when you do ANY other
design you know what the output medium is going to be abnd how it will
behave... designing for the web you need to be ready for everything from
someone using a text-based browser like lynx up to someone on a graphics
workstation with gazillions of colors and a 21 inch monitor set to
1600X1200 (my monitor at home can go higher than this even!) or so.
The general design template that most people going to the internet
design use is a PC, 256 colors at 640X480, using a 56K modem.
Generally I think that's a LITTLE outdated and I design for a PC at
thousands of colors, 800X600 and a 56K modem.
However you have to remember that most people fall in a range above
that. But if you design for the lowest common denominitor you'll
eventually start working for the better look for everyone.
> Simpler to say: Avoid anything with the word "Microsoft" on it and
you'll do
> fine.
Well for a long time there was a standing argument here "Don't start Mac
bashing around oddly." :)
> Yikes. All of them? I have to scroll forever on my pitiful little
monitor.
The gods gave me a monitor with unholy resolution and crappy color
balance. Then again the gods also left this monitor in and empty cube
behind mine that I commandeered for the greater benefit of intranet web
design at the company that I work for. :)
> Thanks for taking the time to say somehting worth listening to!
I do that every now and then.
oddlystrange
(who's in one of her helpful person stages. Don't worry I'll be back to
firey and angry again in a few weeks)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~pe
klaatu
>
> In article <s1pllp...@corp.supernews.com>,
> adding
> > personal writings...I mean, who really cares what I think?
>
> Its a weird thing, for a long time my site was very impersonal (its a
> wreck right now, whether personal or not... I need to upload the update,
> but its not in that condition yet.... anyhoooo)
>
> Uh... Oh yeah... For a long time I left my site as a collection of
> photography tips, mac help stuff and things like that... and it did
> moderately well -- I'd put the traffic in a steady low range (about 60
> or so visitors a day give or take the random "We choose you as site o
> the day" spikes...)
>
> Then I started making it more personal. Put up the autobiography and
> since then traffic is considerably higher.
>
> This is amazing since if you ask me (and anyone who remembers my site
> prior to the addition of the autobiography) is that there's *less*
> content now. But its content that you cannot find anywhere else.
>
> And that's what is the difference on a personal homepage. No one else is
> going to have *YOU* on their site. Remember that.
Yuppers. What amazes me is how few people have bothered to read the
"klaatu_FAQ" on my site. Nobody cares. </snivel>
>
> > But I really like that look.
>
> I don't have a problem with the narrow tables at all. Its an interesting
> look, and you're not a professional or business site and that means
> you're welcome to go for a look that would get slammed elsewhere.
Heh, nobody slams my site, nobody comments on it. They just read it...
>
> > And dammit, do you have any idea how long it
> > took me to get that to work right? That's the first time I've ever
> used
> > tables. They are SUCH a PAIN in the ASS. Better than frames tho.
>
> I have yet to build anything other than a long document site that used
> frames. Learn that art of tables though. They are the only way to really
> get decent layout. Eventually you'll be able to think the design of a
> page in tables.
>
> There's some nifty tabling tricks out there too that will get you
> bordered boxes and patterned backgrounds. Keep playing with them.
Absolutely true. The only way to really guarantee a specific layout will
appear as you want it to, regardless of browser (outside of lynx), it to use
tables. But even tables aren't guaranteed unless you use Netscape.
>
> oddlystrange
>
> (who doesn't know what platform you're on -- though I'd assume windows
> because of the alignment on your page -- but I'd look into a text editor
> with HTML plugs to fiddle with tables with all the attributes they have)
> --
--
"We look through a glass but darkly:
What we see is more colored by our beliefs,
than what we believe is colored by what we see."
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Alain wrote in message <3821a311...@news.planet-int.net>...
>>>Well, there's also the fact that I am NOT a lace-n-frills sort of guy.
>>
>>So your genre is completely different from what I thought.
>
>I'm trying to figure out what gave you that impression, and I'm at a loss.
If you find out, lemme know. Maybe just personality misinterpretation.
But don't take it for sure... It's just a supposition.
>>I like thick rubber, leather, too, and basic stuff to go under it.
>>Such a t-shirts and jeans. Yet, I could sport leather or similarly
>>thick rubber on my butt, too. I liked the boots in that flick. No, I
>>didn't seen it, just the ads.
>
>Ooh, it's good, you should see it.
Maybe I'll rent it, then. There are already 5 flicks, including this
one, I have to rent.
>>Some people used to think so of my eyes. In the end, I found out they
>>were sight impaired (the people) and that my eyes are just kind of
>>piercing, but definitively not "pretty".
>
>Well, my eyes garner me more compliments than anything else, so i asume they
>are nice looking.
Well, well... Okay, okay.. shut up, okay? heh
>>If you convert yer mountain dew to the version that has fake sugar in
>>it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and, rapidly,
>>will get used to the taste.
>
>Blech. But I luv the sugar. Sugar makes me hyper.
Ah, that's too true. Some people truly need sugar or they go down.
Weird thang.
Alain.
The Man-Like Madness
>I agree. I'm tired of red text on a blak background, purple text on a
>black background and the like. That's prolly what appealed to me about
>your pick was it was refreshing :)
Well, I'm just glad to hear that my effort and attempt at originality
worked.
>> I want to run sound on it as well, but I'm having trouble getting
>> the sound file small enought o make it less-than-incredibly-obnoxious.
>
>I have issues with sound files embedded into pages, but it seems to be
>quickly becoming the norm.
Yeah, well, I have no intention of doing it unless it *enhances* the page.
I've seen too many dumb sites where the sound file finally finisheds
downloading as I'm done reading the page.
>> I have the Webmaster's Professional Reference, but I've only read like
>forty
>> page sof it. tech manuals give me a headache, but I'm plodding
>through it
>> slowly.
>
>I lucked out. When I read all the way through a "How to use html" book
>it was when tables were the newest thing on the block. THe book wasn't
>very big... and since then its just been adding onto that knowledge.
Argh, this book I have, it's HUGE. It's quite possibly the biggest book
I've ever tried to read, and there's no plot, no central theme, nothing to
keep my interest. Just endless writings on CGI, Perl, and HTML. ::whack::
(sound of Goblin's head bouncing off his desk)
>> Is that possible, tables within tables?
>
>Oh yes. I don't know where I'd be today without that ability. Just
>remember that you can only put a table within one CELL of another table
>for instance:
>
<snip sample>
Cool, I'll give that a try when I want to do something fancier.
>> Which is better to use, percentage based widths, or fixed widths?
>
>There's no right or wrong answer to this question. A few things to keep
>in mind -- text is usually best read at a width of about 400 pixels.
>ABOUT... What I do is generally if the content of the cell is to contain
>a lot of text is make that cell a fixed width and everything around it
>percentage.
>
>You can use both in a table just not for the same cell.
Ahh, now that is interesting. I can see how that could be very useful.
>> I have no
>> idea what the standard screenwidth is, or any of that stuff, which makes
>> designing this stuff hard.
>
>Well there's the rub of web design. At least when you do ANY other
>design you know what the output medium is going to be abnd how it will
>behave... designing for the web you need to be ready for everything from
>someone using a text-based browser like lynx up to someone on a graphics
>workstation with gazillions of colors and a 21 inch monitor set to
>1600X1200 (my monitor at home can go higher than this even!) or so.
Exactly. I much prefer design for print. Print is easy.
>The general design template that most people going to the internet
>design use is a PC, 256 colors at 640X480, using a 56K modem.
>
>Generally I think that's a LITTLE outdated and I design for a PC at
>thousands of colors, 800X600 and a 56K modem.
>
>However you have to remember that most people fall in a range above
>that. But if you design for the lowest common denominitor you'll
>eventually start working for the better look for everyone.
Okay, well, when teh Madhouse goes into revision (which is going to be
soon), I think I'll design for the second set-up you mentioned, as that is
what I'm at.
>> Simpler to say: Avoid anything with the word "Microsoft" on it and
>you'll do
>> fine.
>
>Well for a long time there was a standing argument here "Don't start Mac
>bashing around oddly." :)
I love Macs. I haven't used one regularly since high school, but I want to
get a Mac, and bad. I'm so fucking sick of this PC. Yay, it's configurable
to all hell. Yay. It can run a bazzillion different programs. Yay. A MAC
is EASY, and it doesn't give me a HEADACHE, and it does exactly what I want
it to. Without crashing. Anyone who wants to jjst do design work should
have a MAC. That's all I have to say on the subject. That and Macs RULE.
>> Yikes. All of them? I have to scroll forever on my pitiful little
>monitor.
>
>The gods gave me a monitor with unholy resolution and crappy color
>balance. Then again the gods also left this monitor in and empty cube
>behind mine that I commandeered for the greater benefit of intranet web
>design at the company that I work for. :)
That's always fun.
The Man-Like Madness
>Well, well... Okay, okay.. shut up, okay? heh
Tired of hearing about my eyes? Okay, shutting up now. :)
>>>If you convert yer mountain dew to the version that has fake sugar in
>>>it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and, rapidly,
>>>will get used to the taste.
>>
>>Blech. But I luv the sugar. Sugar makes me hyper.
>
>Ah, that's too true. Some people truly need sugar or they go down.
>Weird thang.
My school counselor thinks I should go get myself tested for diabetes. I'm
scared too. I don't want to know if I have diabetes. That might mean
needles. Ick.
Hagdrisil
>>Netscape comunicator. It has an editor built in, does transparent
>>gifs and tables are a breeze.
>>
>>It's free and available just about everywhere.
>You're kidding me.
>Well fuck, that's it, I'm switching.
If you have one of those cd's that's come from a semi-recent computer
mag, you might not even have to dl the whole thing. The core program
bits might be on the disk. Just install what's there, and then you
just use the smart update option and get the most recenet version
sent strait to you. :)
Though as Exile pointed out, it can mangle html a tad. The biggest
reason I like Comunicator is that e-mail, www browser and editor are
all in one program. It will do newsgroups, but I don't like the way
it works with the groups, so I use a seperate program for that.
One nice feature of 'Scrape composer is that it alows you to launch
an external text editor to tweek the code from the edit window. I've
been using notepad for this, and realy haven't found anything to
replace it.
Though I do still have to check out the two programs that Exile
recomended. Oh to find a way to make spare time....
>If your children speak to you in Latin or any other language which
>they should not know, or if they speak to you using a voice which
>is other than their own, shoot them immediately. It will save you
>a lot of grief in the long run. NOTE: It will probably take
>several rounds to kill them, so be prepared.
I live not to far from a military base, I'll find out if they have a
short term loan program. <G>
Hagdrisil
(Who's off to find coffee.... me adicted? Naaaahh, what ever gave you
that Idea {coffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffee})
Hagdrisil
>>One area you could work on is tables... but you already admitted
>>that you're still figuring your way around them. If you think
>>visually just think like this "Tables inside tables."
>Is that possible, tables within tables?
Yes! did it on my page. Great way to make sure that when you put
something somewhere it stays there!
>Which is better to use, percentage based widths, or fixed widths?
>I have no idea what the standard screenwidth is, or any of that
>stuff, which makes designing this stuff hard.
I personaly like fixed width, they don't tend to mess up your
formating as much.
The screen size I use is 1024x768 mostly 'cuase that's what my screen
is set to. 800x600 is also fairlc common as well.
Hagdrisil
(coffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffee)
exile
> One nice feature of 'Scrape composer is that it alows you to launch
> an external text editor to tweek the code from the edit window. I've
> been using notepad for this, and realy haven't found anything to
> replace it.
On the surface it does do a pretty good job...
Whatever you do... don't save your page to your hd with it... you
will spend ages cleaning up the mess.
Hagdrisil
>> I want to run sound on it as well, but I'm having trouble
>> getting the sound file small enought o make it less-than
>> -incredibly-obnoxious.
>I have issues with sound files embedded into pages, but it seems
>to be quickly becoming the norm.
If I ever built music into a page, I would give the option of not
playing the it. I've been surfing one to many times while listening
to one of my cd's and suddenly had some tinny sounding anime-ish
theme song twanging along in the middle of it.
I eventually un-installed bothe creschendo and Quicktime plugins.
Hagdrisil
Hagdrisil
>> One nice feature of 'Scrape composer is that it alows you to
>> launch an external text editor to tweek the code from the edit
>> window. I've been using notepad for this, and realy haven't
>> found anything to replace it.
> On the surface it does do a pretty good job...
> Whatever you do... don't save your page to your hd with it... you
> will spend ages cleaning up the mess.
That might explain where most of my hd keeps disapearing to ;-)
I've always saved from notepad then when Scrape gives me the warning
that another program's altered the open file, I just tell it to
update from the newly saved one and discard the version in the
current window. No real problems have poped up, accept that when I
try and preview form the editor, the changes don't imediately take
effect.
After I get my cd-rw I'll be dumping the partition and starting again
from scratch. I'll try both programs you recomended before I do. :)
Alain
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Alain wrote in message <38236764...@news.planet-int.net>...
>
>>Well, well... Okay, okay.. shut up, okay? heh
>
>Tired of hearing about my eyes? Okay, shutting up now. :)
Oh, I just hoped you'd look at your eyes, for a bit and then come to
the same conclusion I came about mines. You know. To make me feel less
alone.
>>Ah, that's too true. Some people truly need sugar or they go down.
>>Weird thang.
>
>My school counselor thinks I should go get myself tested for diabetes. I'm
>scared too. I don't want to know if I have diabetes. That might mean
>needles. Ick.
Bah... If you look away, you'll notice that you didn't even noticed
when the needle penetrated your skin. Do it a few times (well, have
someone do it to you) and soon you'll be able to do your own piercings
with a big nail without twitching an second.
Alain.
oddlystrange
<--nightshade--atgeocitiesN...@192.168.1.1>,
--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--)
wrote:
> i have to agree. sound in a web page is often enough to make me say
> `don't care 'bout the content any more,` *clickety-click* bye-bye
> window.
One nice thing about being on a modem is I often get the downloading
application dialog that I can quickly hit cancel on. At work I don't
have that ability. So I just leave sound turned off.
> heh. remember when the html reference guides were one web page, and
not
> terribly long at that? (html 2.o was a single RFC, IIRC)
Actually the book I was referring to (and I still have it around because
its how this whole thing got started) was HTML 2.0 its very funny
because at the end of it it encourages you to go to a site and review
the "draft" of html 3.0.
Other goodies in this book include a picture of the origianl Microsoft
site *snicker*, a reference to the now outdated concept of "hypermedia
publishing" and good ole netscape 1.1
I spent about 4 days solid reading that book at the end of the summer in
1995 and my life hasn't been the same since.
oddlystrange
(who says thanks for making me look through it again)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - - - - -
The Man-Like Madness
--nightshade-- <--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com> wrote in
message <--nightshade--atgeocitiesN...@192.168.1.1>...
>In article <s215ve...@corp.supernews.com>, "The Man-Like Madness"
><mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> I love Macs. <snippitty> That and Macs RULE.
>
>now you're sucking up to the right people. ;)
>
>
>just add in a footnote about *nix being right for some things, and whinge
>for a while about the poor state of *bsd for PPC hardware, and you've got
>it made.
Um...nix is all right for certain applications, but damn, I really wish
someone would do somehting about the sad state of bsd for PPC hardware,
becuase it's getting mighty annoying.
(So...uh, what am I talking about anyway?)
GOBLIN
==================================
There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio. What is sacred?
Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? And what is worth
dying for? The answer to each is the same: only love. -Don Juan De Marco
The Man-Like Madness
>Other goodies in this book include a picture of the origianl Microsoft
>site *snicker*, a reference to the now outdated concept of "hypermedia
>publishing" and good ole netscape 1.1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "hypermedia publishing" is that habit of
over-crosslinking everything in a document? I kinda like that.
Goblin
shadowlight
says...
> Alain wrote in message <38236764...@news.planet-int.net>...
>
> >Well, well... Okay, okay.. shut up, okay? heh
>
>
> Tired of hearing about my eyes? Okay, shutting up now. :)
>
> >>>it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and, rapidly,
> >>>will get used to the taste.
> >>
> >>Blech. But I luv the sugar. Sugar makes me hyper.
> >
> >Weird thang.
>
>
> My school counselor thinks I should go get myself tested for diabetes. I'm
> scared too. I don't want to know if I have diabetes. That might mean
> needles. Ick.
why? do you drink excessive amounts of liquids? pee a lot? eat 16 spoons
of sugar on your already pre-sweetened cereal?
Diabetes is pretty easy to control if you catch it early. there are
pills for insulin control, so _if_ you do have diabetes, you may not have
to go the injectable route. and giving yourself shots has to be
preferable to blindness & death, i would think.... (you wouldn't want
those pretty eyes to be sightless would you?)
my cat gets insulin 2x/day. he can deal. i'm sure you could :)
and sugar free drinks aren't an option for some people... some of us
can't drink/eat artificial sweeteners. <blech!>
lee
benton, UberPoseur
<limb>
I think that what she was refering to is the idea of embedding more than just
text and images in a document. Y'know, video, sound, all the bells and
whistles in Flash 5. ;)
</limb>
The idea is kind of archaic, becuase it is the defacto way.
Like OLE, which was a total pain in the ass in Win3.1, but which I do every
time I open up exchange.
> I kinda like that.
I don't, becuase there are too many places to go, and I hate interrupting a
paticular train of thought in reading something to go elsewhere.
I much prefer the links to be in an easily accesable place for referal and
return.
The exception would be mailto: embedded when someone is mentioned, and define
or image links for a particlar unknown concept or word.
But those are just my tastes. Paragraphs made up of nothing but links are
better suited to everything.slashdot.org than a way to convey maximum
information.
May the One shine on us all, even if it is only because we don't like to miss
a thing.
benton.
(( Darn. I supposed I'll have to go home soon ))
oddlystrange
"benton, UberPoseur" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> <limb>
>
> I think that what she was refering to is the idea of embedding more
than just
> text and images in a document. Y'know, video, sound, all the bells and
> whistles in Flash 5. ;)
>
> </limb>
You're in the right tree. You're just on an actual branch. The
defininition of "HyperMedia Publishing" as it was used in this book was
FAR more mundane than that.
It was simply referring to the *revolutionary* concept of being able to
link several documents together through hyperlinks -- in 1995 it was a
pretty amazing concept that you could write a document, click on a word
or phrase and get more information about that word or that concept.
The idea was that one day you could go on forever following links to
learn more about every minute detail of something that you're reading. A
click on the phrase "Z'wounds" in Hamlet would tell you what it meant,
with another link to other Elizabethan phrases which would link to
perhaps information about Elizabethan England etc. etc.
So its basically what the web is now. This book predated the ability to
embed sound in a web page, the use of a background tiled image was a new
thing, and images themselves were a rather new concept.
Flash, and QuickTime were a LONG way off. (well QuickTime about 6 mos to
a year, and I first saw Flash in LATE 1996).
> The idea is kind of archaic, becuase it is the defacto way.
Well you got that part right :)
> I don't, becuase there are too many places to go, and I hate
interrupting a
> paticular train of thought in reading something to go elsewhere.
You're not forced to go anywhere though. Using my above example of
Hamlet you can read the whole play, and perhaps later go check out the
links.
Web publishing has kinda changed in that regard. Initially you saw a lot
of documents with words in it links to other places. So that you were
kinda flitting about everywhere.
Now it seems that the text tends to stay "solid" until the end when "for
more information" seems to be the norm. Links within text tend to be
nothing other than pop-up windows with definitions and the link -- a
dead end in the link world.
oddlystrange
(who needs to go design some web pages speaking of....)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- -
The Man-Like Madness
>> My school counselor thinks I should go get myself tested for diabetes.
I'm
>> scared too. I don't want to know if I have diabetes. That might mean
>> needles. Ick.
>
>why? do you drink excessive amounts of liquids? pee a lot? eat 16 spoons
>of sugar on your already pre-sweetened cereal?
Yes, yes, and yes (well, no, but I assume you're actually asking "Crave
sugar constantly?")
> Diabetes is pretty easy to control if you catch it early. there are
>pills for insulin control, so _if_ you do have diabetes, you may not have
>to go the injectable route. and giving yourself shots has to be
>preferable to blindness & death, i would think.... (you wouldn't want
>those pretty eyes to be sightless would you?)
To be honest, I would rather die first. I find nothing quite so terrifying
as the idea of losing my two priamry sense (sight & hearing), or the uise of
major limbs.
> my cat gets insulin 2x/day. he can deal. i'm sure you could :)
lol
> and sugar free drinks aren't an option for some people... some of us
>can't drink/eat artificial sweeteners. <blech!>
I can't eat anything with nutrasweat in it. It tastes just like alum to me.
I pucked up so severly my face implodes. It isn't pretty.
exile
> Though I think that a hypertext'd fiction piece could be very interesting.
Start one.
The Man-Like Madness
benton, UberPoseur wrote in message <382242E4...@mediaone.net>...
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but "hypermedia publishing" is that habit of
>> over-crosslinking everything in a document?
>I think that what she was refering to is the idea of embedding more than
just
>text and images in a document. Y'know, video, sound, all the bells and
>whistles in Flash 5. ;)
Oh, okay, sure. I can see that.
>Like OLE, which was a total pain in the ass in Win3.1, but which I do every
>time I open up exchange.
What's OLE?
>> I kinda like that.
>
>I don't, becuase there are too many places to go, and I hate interrupting a
>paticular train of thought in reading something to go elsewhere.
Well, I really like it in educational stuff. Like anything on philsophy.
because so many ideas get cross referneced, it's nice to be able to click
ona word and get it's defintion, etc.
>I much prefer the links to be in an easily accesable place for referal and
>return.
>
>The exception would be mailto: embedded when someone is mentioned, and
define
>or image links for a particlar unknown concept or word.
Oh yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about.
Though I think that a hypertext'd fiction piece could be very interesting.
GOBLIN
Rachael
> In article <Goblin> says...
<added from Goblin's previous post to Alain>
>>> If you convert yer mountain dew to the version that has fake sugar
>>> in it, you'll snipe a load of calories off your daily diet and,
>>> rapidly, will get used to the taste.
>>
>> Blech. But I luv the sugar. Sugar makes me hyper.
>
> Ah, that's too true. Some people truly need sugar or they go down.
> Weird thang.
</added>
>> My school counselor thinks I should go get myself tested for diabetes
>> I'm scared too. I don't want to know if I have diabetes. That might
>> mean needles. Ick.
I do not see how anyone could conclude diabetes from your craving
for sugar and its effect on you. In the days in which a disposition
of diabetes turns into the actual illness, in this time of appearance,
you'd become more and more tired, indifferent, apathic and reluctant
to food, sugar would not make you "hyper" in any way (except you mean
it makes your blood sugar hyperglycemic, but in that case it accumu-
lates until you treat it or die).
Moreover, in case of diabetes there is no option: You need to know
whether or not you're diabetic, you need to treat it and you need to
become aware of your body. Otherwise you're dead, period.
> why? do you drink excessive amounts of liquids? pee a lot? eat 16
> spoons of sugar on your already pre-sweetened cereal?
The actual appearance of diabetes is shown by symptoms like thirst,
dehydration, apathy and heavy loss of weight, but there is definitely no
craving for food, in particular sweets or sugar. Most diabetics lose
all appetite before the illness is diagnosed and treated.
> Diabetes is pretty easy to control if you catch it early.
Wholeheartedly agreed on. Diabetes can be handled nowadays pretty
easily and does not limit your life in any way, in particular after
getting used to the necessary treatment (like diet, blood sugar counts
and injections). One needs to get aware of oneself more, but diabetes is
no restriction to life anymore as it used to be some years ago.
> there are pills for insulin control, so _if_ you do have diabetes,
> you may not have to go the injectable route.
That's not entirely true. There are two types of diabetes: Type I af-
fects mainly young people and is caused by a predisposition. This kind
of diabetes mellitus needs to be treated with diets and injections, but
due to progress in therapy neither the necessity of diet nor the needles
mean any restriction. Type II diabetes, however, which is known to af-
fect old people of a bad physical condition and overweight, is much more
widespread and common than type I, and its therapy most often includes
pills that stimulate the body's own production of insulin. If the type
II patient does not lose weight it may, however, be necessary after a
while to use injections instead since the body's ability to produce the
needed surplus of insulin deteriorates.
> and giving yourself shots has to be preferable to blindness & death,
It's not only preferable, it is necessary. No shot = no life.
Rachael
'mbeidh giota císte agat? Giota beag.
& listening to Sibelius
--
"Suavia musae... me delectant, me deiciunt, me consolantur."
Follow me... http://redrival.com/quisquilia/initiatio.htm
Rachael...@gmx.net
benton, UberPosuer
>In article <382242E4...@mediaone.net>,
> "benton, UberPoseur" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>> <limb>
>>
>> I think that what she was refering to is the idea of embedding more
>than just
>> text and images in a document. Y'know, video, sound, all the bells and
>> whistles in Flash 5. ;)
>>
>> </limb>
>
>You're in the right tree. You're just on an actual branch. The
>defininition of "HyperMedia Publishing" as it was used in this book was
>FAR more mundane than that.
Well, I spun 'Hypermedia' though Whatis I go this:
~* whirrr *~
Hypermedia, a term derived from hypertext, extends the notion of the
hypertext link to include links among any set of multimedia objects,
including sound, motion video, and virtual reality. It can also connote a
higher level of user/network interactivity than the interactivity already
implicit in hypertext.
~* end *~
Hypertext documents are nothing new.
>It was simply referring to the *revolutionary* concept of being able to
>link several documents together through hyperlinks -- in 1995 it was a
>pretty amazing concept that you could write a document, click on a word
>or phrase and get more information about that word or that concept.
I wasn't quite on the net then. My first net connection was though netcom,
and I had Mosaic, which was ugly and didn't render things correctly, and
Netscape.
I do remember when background gifs weren't the norm. The web kind floated
over the endless grey sea of default colors.
I do recall the TABLE and BLINK tags as being new and different things, and
that I had no problem apprehending them with the version of Netscape that I
had.
I do remember when Lycos was at Carnegie Mellon, and you had to pick a
server.
So what does that date me as, late 1995 and/or early 1996? I don't recall
exactly.
>The idea was that one day you could go on forever following links to
>learn more about every minute detail of something that you're reading.
I spent a lot of time doing that early. Now I hardly ever just boink about
the web like that.
Eventually one stops seeing the Web as an entertainment activity, and more
of a resource for particular information more complete than any other
reference work.
Not to say that I don't 'surf', every once in a while, but i'm usually doing
other things with my net connection.
> A
>click on the phrase "Z'wounds" in Hamlet would tell you what it meant,
>with another link to other Elizabethan phrases which would link to
>perhaps information about Elizabethan England etc. etc.
Clever concept, doesn't help you if you have to read all of Hamlet.
>So its basically what the web is now. This book predated the ability to
>embed sound in a web page, the use of a background tiled image was a new
>thing, and images themselves were a rather new concept.
Without border=0, even. ;)
>Flash, and QuickTime were a LONG way off. (well QuickTime about 6 mos to
>a year, and I first saw Flash in LATE 1996).
I think QT was out in 1995, but I could be very wrong.
>> The idea is kind of archaic, becuase it is the defacto way.
>
>Well you got that part right :)
Notice the limb tags. ;)
"Nothing gets a faster and more accurate answer than posting the wrong
information to USENET."
That is someone's law. Clue me.
>> I don't, becuase there are too many places to go, and I hate
>interrupting a
>> paticular train of thought in reading something to go elsewhere.
>
>You're not forced to go anywhere though. Using my above example of
>Hamlet you can read the whole play, and perhaps later go check out the
>links.
Exactly, but the primitive back-forward navigation that we are stuck with,
doesn't really help you with the kind of multi-threaded interactivity that
that format calls for.
Eventually, you go off on some wierd tangent, and it becomes non-intuative
to go back, especially when you visit pages that break back-forward
functionality with redirects, frames, and other Bad Web Behavior.
>Web publishing has kinda changed in that regard. Initially you saw a lot
>of documents with words in it links to other places. So that you were
>kinda flitting about everywhere.
I remember that. Yuo get to some interesting places that way.
You can also get mired in a pit of sludge.
>Now it seems that the text tends to stay "solid" until the end when "for
>more information" seems to be the norm. Links within text tend to be
>nothing other than pop-up windows with definitions and the link -- a
>dead end in the link world.
Or a href=# tag to later in the page. I do not like pop-ups. Do Not Take
Control Of My Browser.
This is why 'push' died the screaming death that it deserved. I'm sure that
you know that 'They' are trying to resurrect it. Horrid idea.
May the One shine on us all, even if we enjoy web pages that are content
heavy, and pretty light.
--
benton -- bento...@mediaone.net -- ICQ: 32861590
love will
tear us apart
oddlystrange
"benton, UberPosuer" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Hypertext documents are nothing new.
Oh true. They've been around since at least the GUI, if not before.
There was some sci fi writer that talked about it all the time in the
'60s. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Klaatu could name him off the
top of his head.
Anhooo... the difference between early hypertext documents and what was
so revolutionary about them with the advent of the web's popularity was
initially a hypertexted document was a self-contained entity -- if I was
going to make a hypertext document, the links themselves would never
venture outside of my own creation.
What made the web so revolutionary in this was that you were able to
link to someone else's work, and they to another person's. So for the
first time it wasn't one person's (or business or school or whatever's)
knowledge that drove your search, but rather a collective intelligence
of several different sources.
It still seems pretty damn cool to me.
> I wasn't quite on the net then. My first net connection was though
netcom,
> and I had Mosaic, which was ugly and didn't render things correctly,
and
> Netscape.
Well... I was on a netcom shell in 1995. They still sold shell accounts
cheap back then. $7 a month!
> I do recall the TABLE and BLINK tags as being new and different
things, and
> that I had no problem apprehending them with the version of Netscape
that I
> had.
AAAIIIG!!! Blink. The most evil tag ever invented!
> I do remember when Lycos was at Carnegie Mellon, and you had to pick a
> server.
Heh. I remember when Yahoo was coming out of an .edu/~something address
:)
> So what does that date me as, late 1995 and/or early 1996? I don't
recall
> exactly.
The first time I saw graphics on the web was in late 1994. I remember
this so clearly too its scary. It was David House's gothic links page.
Someone had sent me the URL because I was in my graphics class and bored
out of my mind and had seen that mosaic was on the computer, but I
didn't really know where to go with it (as in... I'd used lynx... but
when I hit G: on the keyboard to go somewhere nothing happened :) ). So
he sent me the URL told me where to put in in the browser and sent me on
my way.
I just remember thinking that it was the coolest thing I'd EVER seen.
Being able to simply publish once and have it seen all over the world.
And since I tend to think graphically, breaking out of lynx was just
that jump that I needed to really fall in love.
> I spent a lot of time doing that early. Now I hardly ever just boink
about
> the web like that.
I do and I don't. I go on "knowledge" searches all the time. Pretty much
I'm like "I want to find out more about..." and head off into the world
of whatever is out there about that topic.
I have with a lot of trepidation found myself increasingly using the web
for commercial undertakings (shopping and the like). Which kind of
bothers me because I'm paranoid of seeing the freedom to publish on the
web swallowed up by every increasing costs thanks to giant retailer on
the web.
If you ask me the web is the MOST and ONLY purely democratic system of
speech that's ever existed. My web page can go somewhere where my zine
would never travel.
And I'm scared to death of seeing that go away as the commercialization
of the web continues.
> "Nothing gets a faster and more accurate answer than posting the wrong
> information to USENET."
>
> That is someone's law. Clue me.
Ha! I haven't heard that one. I'd assume that its the second rule of
usenet though :)
> Exactly, but the primitive back-forward navigation that we are stuck
with,
> doesn't really help you with the kind of multi-threaded interactivity
that
> that format calls for.
True. And some browsers are trying to deal with that. I would like to
see perhaps a pull out on a browser with an information tree -- so you
could see what you've followed and what you've gone to anew with each
click.
> Or a href=# tag to later in the page. I do not like pop-ups. Do Not
Take
> Control Of My Browser.
Well pop ups are a simple thing to do. The issue is that a lot of people
forget to close them and then wonder why the browser has swallowed up so
much memory.
> This is why 'push' died the screaming death that it deserved. I'm sure
that
> you know that 'They' are trying to resurrect it. Horrid idea.
They will because people know that they're not good enough to have
people come to them.
> love will
> tear us apart
Back to the concrete blond weirdness. I was JUST listening to that!
oddlystrange
(who says the MGB must be busy coordinating our music choices)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perk
The Man-Like Madness
interesting.
>
Um, no. I'd really rather not punish y'all with my purple prose.
There's a reason I write scripts and not stories. Scripts don't have to
have elegant descripptions of things.
The Man-Like Madness
>I do not see how anyone could conclude diabetes from your craving
>for sugar and its effect on you. In the days in which a disposition
>of diabetes turns into the actual illness, in this time of appearance,
>you'd become more and more tired, indifferent, apathic and reluctant
>to food, sugar would not make you "hyper" in any way (except you mean
>it makes your blood sugar hyperglycemic, but in that case it accumu-
>lates until you treat it or die).
Actually, sugar does not make me hyper. I was just kidding around with
Alain. That's the danger of combing two unrelated posts from me. I don't
know why I like sugar so much. It doesn't really make me feel any different
than I normally do.
>Moreover, in case of diabetes there is no option: You need to know
>whether or not you're diabetic, you need to treat it and you need to
>become aware of your body. Otherwise you're dead, period.
>The actual appearance of diabetes is shown by symptoms like thirst,
>dehydration, apathy and heavy loss of weight, but there is definitely no
>craving for food, in particular sweets or sugar. Most diabetics lose
>all appetite before the illness is diagnosed and treated.
Umm...you're scaring me.
<snip scary stuff>
>It's not only preferable, it is necessary. No shot = no life.
No, scratch that, you're terrifying me.
God, I really don't want to go to the clinic and find out. This is scary.
benton, UberPoseur
>
> In article <ru4iOG6+QdEx1I...@4ax.com>,
> "benton, UberPosuer" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > Hypertext documents are nothing new.
>
> Oh true. They've been around since at least the GUI, if not before.
Before.
Alto's word processor might have used the hypertext model, but they figured
that plain old wordprocessing was enough of an adventure. The development of
hypertext and the devlopment of the personal computer were pretty concurrent.
> There was some sci fi writer that talked about it all the time in the
> '60s. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Klaatu could name him off the
> top of his head.
I would be willing to bet it as well.
> Anhooo... the difference between early hypertext documents and what was
> so revolutionary about them with the advent of the web's popularity was
> initially a hypertexted document was a self-contained entity -- if I was
> going to make a hypertext document, the links themselves would never
> venture outside of my own creation.
Well, I can recall a couple of bits of educational software in my early days
that used a hypertext-like model of the one that you describe.
> What made the web so revolutionary in this was that you were able to
> link to someone else's work, and they to another person's. So for the
> first time it wasn't one person's (or business or school or whatever's)
> knowledge that drove your search, but rather a collective intelligence
> of several different sources.
That and the linkage process fosters and creates and exchange of knowledge. I
know that I get a number of links every day from various sources which beg to
be clicked on and transported to their knowledge.
Instead of embedding the document, or transcribing it, it's location is given
on some very remote machine and off you go.
> It still seems pretty damn cool to me.
It is cool. Kind of. I like the old web better. I know that the web sucks for
most people with slow connections. The kind of service that I peddle is the
only solution.
I spend most of my time reading and writing ASCII, which I could do with a
glass tty and a 110 baud modem.
I find that more fufilling than the web, becuase while the web is
participatory, it is largely static (( I was going to say non-interactive, but
that would sound kind of silly )) in comparison to USENET.
> > I wasn't quite on the net then. My first net connection was though
> netcom,
> > and I had Mosaic, which was ugly and didn't render things correctly,
> and
> > Netscape.
>
> Well... I was on a netcom shell in 1995. They still sold shell accounts
> cheap back then. $7 a month!
I didn't have shell access, or if I did, I didn't know it.
> > I do recall the TABLE and BLINK tags as being new and different
> things, and
> > that I had no problem apprehending them with the version of Netscape
> that I
> > had.
>
> AAAIIIG!!! Blink. The most evil tag ever invented!
Indeed.
> > I do remember when Lycos was at Carnegie Mellon, and you had to pick a
> > server.
>
> Heh. I remember when Yahoo was coming out of an .edu/~something address
> :)
I didn't clue into Yahoo until much later. I used Lycos for just about
everything search like.
~* snip *~
> > I spent a lot of time doing that early. Now I hardly ever just boink
> about
> > the web like that.
>
> I do and I don't. I go on "knowledge" searches all the time. Pretty much
> I'm like "I want to find out more about..." and head off into the world
> of whatever is out there about that topic.
www.google.com is the search engine of preference for me right now. I get
attached to one or the other and change when it reveals and obvious deficincy
or a total cluelessness when entering a simple search. /. revealed the wonder
that it google to me, which I have grown quite fond of.
I'm also happy that google doesn't try to be a 'portal' or other wired-speak
bullshit. Just a search engine. Their 'o's were pumpkins for halloween, but
that is the prettyiest thing that they have ever done.
I also have a basket of useful information sites. I don't bookmark much, I
tend to go where I want to go by remembering how I got there.
> I have with a lot of trepidation found myself increasingly using the web
> for commercial undertakings (shopping and the like).
I've bought a few things. Nothing expensive.
I could order a catalogue just as easily, but then I don't have to wait for it
in the mail.
I've been generally satisfied with the goods I have purchased.
I like it becuase I don't have to deal with people face to face.
> Which kind of
> bothers me because I'm paranoid of seeing the freedom to publish on the
> web swallowed up by every increasing costs thanks to giant retailer on
> the web.
Wait a second. The cost of web publishing is pretty much nil. If you don't
want to do a free site, there are many low cost web hosting services out
there, or you can just ask someone who does have a web server for a smidgen of
space.
You can fit a fuckload of text into even the tiniest share of webspace.
> If you ask me the web is the MOST and ONLY purely democratic system of
> speech that's ever existed. My web page can go somewhere where my zine
> would never travel.
That too.
> And I'm scared to death of seeing that go away as the commercialization
> of the web continues.
~* shake shake *~
Won't happen. There are *endless* frontiers. It isn't as though there is a
finite amount of web to go around. That is thinking like the domain squatters.
There is always More Space.
> > "Nothing gets a faster and more accurate answer than posting the wrong
> > information to USENET."
> >
> > That is someone's law. Clue me.
>
> Ha! I haven't heard that one. I'd assume that its the second rule of
> usenet though :)
It is up there.
I like Sojberg's Laws myself.
> > Exactly, but the primitive back-forward navigation that we are stuck
> with,
> > doesn't really help you with the kind of multi-threaded interactivity
> that
> > that format calls for.
>
> True. And some browsers are trying to deal with that. I would like to
> see perhaps a pull out on a browser with an information tree -- so you
> could see what you've followed and what you've gone to anew with each
> click.
With redirects and other shenanigans that web sites pull now, it would be hard
to make clear.
> > Or a href=# tag to later in the page. I do not like pop-ups. Do Not
> Take
> > Control Of My Browser.
>
> Well pop ups are a simple thing to do. The issue is that a lot of people
> forget to close them and then wonder why the browser has swallowed up so
> much memory.
Memory is a non issue. System resources OTOH. There is a tendency to use fancy
tools to do something when simple ones will suffice. My lookup for rates is a
huge JAVA monolith.
There is no need for such things. You could just have a couple of web pages,
and click via link, instead of hearing the grind a whirr of the processor and
disks as they attempt to wrap their heads around JAVA>
> > This is why 'push' died the screaming death that it deserved. I'm sure
> that
> > you know that 'They' are trying to resurrect it. Horrid idea.
>
> They will because people know that they're not good enough to have
> people come to them.
Maybe it was just before it's time. I don't think so. I think it was a idea
for which there is no possible execution which will work for the diverse
platforms and technology, and keep things swift and secure.
> > love will
> > tear us apart
>
> Back to the concrete blond weirdness. I was JUST listening to that!
That is what Ian has on his gravestone.
I have that picture on my desktop at work right now.
May the One shine on us all, even if we've been listening to a lot more JD
recently.
benton.
(( collecting mail bits ))
klaatu
>
> In article <ru4iOG6+QdEx1I...@4ax.com>,
> "benton, UberPosuer" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > Hypertext documents are nothing new.
>
> Oh true. They've been around since at least the GUI, if not before.
> '60s. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Klaatu could name him off the
> top of his head.
Crap, you lose. I don't think it was the 60s, more like the 70s, I'm
thinking for the moment that it might have been either Mack Reynolds, or
Dean Ing, though as a long shot I could suggest that it might have been
Jerry Pounelle. I do know that in the early 80s there were some folks
experimenting around with the idea, but the concept of a hypertext browser
was as yet nebulous. I can't recall the exact person off of the top of my
head right now, but I will know it if I see it, he's a guy who does a lot of
military/future-wars stuff, who did the first hypertext multi-ending novel,
I believe it was done on a Mac on HyperCard, I'm thinking maybe 1986 or so.
>
> Anhooo... the difference between early hypertext documents and what was
> so revolutionary about them with the advent of the web's popularity was
> initially a hypertexted document was a self-contained entity -- if I was
> going to make a hypertext document, the links themselves would never
> venture outside of my own creation.
Exactly.
>
> What made the web so revolutionary in this was that you were able to
> link to someone else's work, and they to another person's. So for the
> first time it wasn't one person's (or business or school or whatever's)
> knowledge that drove your search, but rather a collective intelligence
> of several different sources.
Which is why I get so mad when people either do entirely local-content on
their pages, or alternatively, have almost no local content and simply
direct you to local content. I try to mix it evenly. Most of my pages were
done when the 'Net wasn't awash with search-engines, or at least my
scientific pages were done that way. WebSurfing at that time was pretty
dependent on how top-down and organized pages were...
>
> It still seems pretty damn cool to me.
>
> > I wasn't quite on the net then. My first net connection was though netcom,
> > and I had Mosaic, which was ugly and didn't render things correctly, and
> > Netscape.
>
> Well... I was on a netcom shell in 1995. They still sold shell accounts
> cheap back then. $7 a month!
>
> > I do recall the TABLE and BLINK tags as being new and different things, and
> > that I had no problem apprehending them with the version of Netscape that I
> > had.
>
> AAAIIIG!!! Blink. The most evil tag ever invented!
Heh heh. The only use I've ever really had for it was for putting a blinking
cursor in hypertext, for an on-line communication.
>
> > I do remember when Lycos was at Carnegie Mellon, and you had to pick a
> > server.
>
> Heh. I remember when Yahoo was coming out of an .edu/~something address
> :)
Geezer.
>
> > So what does that date me as, late 1995 and/or early 1996? I don't recall
> > exactly.
>
> The first time I saw graphics on the web was in late 1994. I remember
> this so clearly too its scary. It was David House's gothic links page.
> Someone had sent me the URL because I was in my graphics class and bored
> out of my mind and had seen that mosaic was on the computer, but I
> didn't really know where to go with it (as in... I'd used lynx... but
> when I hit G: on the keyboard to go somewhere nothing happened :) ). So
> he sent me the URL told me where to put in in the browser and sent me on
> my way.
>
> I just remember thinking that it was the coolest thing I'd EVER seen.
> Being able to simply publish once and have it seen all over the world.
>
> And since I tend to think graphically, breaking out of lynx was just
> that jump that I needed to really fall in love.
>
> > I spent a lot of time doing that early. Now I hardly ever just boink
> about
> > the web like that.
>
> I do and I don't. I go on "knowledge" searches all the time. Pretty much
> I'm like "I want to find out more about..." and head off into the world
> of whatever is out there about that topic.
>
> I have with a lot of trepidation found myself increasingly using the web
> for commercial undertakings (shopping and the like). Which kind of
> bothers me because I'm paranoid of seeing the freedom to publish on the
> web swallowed up by every increasing costs thanks to giant retailer on
> the web.
Not going to happen. If you're in the US, get and maintain your own 24/7
server. Get domain name while you still can. In any case, go out _right now_
and fiber your backyard or building, and fiber it to the next building. Even
if you'll never have OSS backbone speeds, your packets will get through.
>
> If you ask me the web is the MOST and ONLY purely democratic system of
> speech that's ever existed. My web page can go somewhere where my zine
> would never travel.
Absolutely. That's why a Free InterNet (that's also very cheap) is possibly
the single most important thing in the world, outside of having air to
breathe, etc.
>
> And I'm scared to death of seeing that go away as the commercialization
> of the web continues.
Create an alternative thrust. Write. Do art. Make sure it's there. And
never, ever, ever, knowingly put content on a server-farm unless you
personally know the owner/operator/sysadmin. The Corporate Server Farm is
going to be the thing that will return us to the Bad Old Days of "freedom of
the press belongs to whoever can afford one".
>
> > "Nothing gets a faster and more accurate answer than posting the wrong
> > information to USENET."
> >
> > That is someone's law. Clue me.
>
> Ha! I haven't heard that one. I'd assume that its the second rule of
> usenet though :)
klaatu's law. Even though I didn't coin it. =)
>
> > Exactly, but the primitive back-forward navigation that we are stuck with,
> > doesn't really help you with the kind of multi-threaded interactivity that
> > that format calls for.
>
> True. And some browsers are trying to deal with that. I would like to
> see perhaps a pull out on a browser with an information tree -- so you
> could see what you've followed and what you've gone to anew with each
> click.
Excellent idea and duly noted, I suspect. BTW; you will notice that I
increasingly use pop-ups in all of my links which take people offsite from
my portal/"central" pages. For instance, see
http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/metascience.html -- IIRC I have set it to
spawn a smaller browser window to new sites, so that you'll always have the
bottomlevel (last hit) page at my site available in the background. Please,
give it a try and if you have any suggestions to improve utility, please
mail me.
>
> > Or a href=# tag to later in the page. I do not like pop-ups. Do Not Take
> > Control Of My Browser.
>
> Well pop ups are a simple thing to do. The issue is that a lot of people
> forget to close them and then wonder why the browser has swallowed up so
> much memory.
Pop-ups are at present the closest thing to an information tree that most
browsers have (beside what you get when you hold down the "back" button in
netscape to get the history list). I do consistently make use of the <A
href="page.html#line></a> and <a name="line"> tags, but I am pretty rare as
I exclusively handcode.
>
> > This is why 'push' died the screaming death that it deserved. I'm sure that
> > you know that 'They' are trying to resurrect it. Horrid idea.
>
> They will because people know that they're not good enough to have
> people come to them.
>
> > love will
> > tear us apart
>
> Back to the concrete blond weirdness. I was JUST listening to that!
>
> oddlystrange
>
> (who says the MGB must be busy coordinating our music choices)
The MGB is busy these days.
> --
> "Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
> -- Bobcat Goldwait
> referring to Alice Cooper
> --< http://www.obscure.org/~perk
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
"We look through a glass but darkly:
What we see is more colored by our beliefs,
than what we believe is colored by what we see."
shadowlight
says...
> >Moreover, in case of diabetes there is no option: You need to know
> >whether or not you're diabetic, you need to treat it and you need to
> >become aware of your body. Otherwise you're dead, period.
>
>
> >The actual appearance of diabetes is shown by symptoms like thirst,
> >dehydration, apathy and heavy loss of weight, but there is definitely no
> >craving for food, in particular sweets or sugar. Most diabetics lose
> >all appetite before the illness is diagnosed and treated.
>
>
> Umm...you're scaring me.
informed is good.
> <snip scary stuff>
> >It's not only preferable, it is necessary. No shot = no life.
>
> No, scratch that, you're terrifying me.
> God, I really don't want to go to the clinic and find out. This is scary.
go! i expect a report back. you really need to find out before damage is
done.
the shots are not a big deal. insulin needles are tiny. they don't hurt.
(i've stuck myself enough... now those damn 16 guage needles on the
Ringer's drip bottles... those hurt! but that was rehydrating a liver
failure kitty, not the diabetic)
here... go talk to Mooch about diabetes ;)
http://www.mooch.org
i need to update it, since he's down to 3 units 2x/day & if he doesn't
stop the midday/midnight glucose drop (it gets as low as 43), it'll be
reduced again soon. right now he gets a snack between doses especially at
night, because i _hate_ waking up to seizures. (dead sleep to opening the
bottle of Karo in the fridge: 15 seconds & that includes grabbing the cat
& running downstairs... but i'm so used to it i don't even call the vet
until office hours anymore. karo syrup & sweet potatoes fixes him right
up)
lee <i had an epileptic dog too.... no, none of my pets can be normal>
benton, UberPosuer
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>benton, UberPoseur wrote in message <382242E4...@mediaone.net>...
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but "hypermedia publishing" is that habit of
>>> over-crosslinking everything in a document?
>
>
>>I think that what she was refering to is the idea of embedding more than
>just
>>text and images in a document. Y'know, video, sound, all the bells and
>>whistles in Flash 5. ;)
>
>Oh, okay, sure. I can see that.
As it turns out, I was wrong, but I wasn't far from the truth.
>>Like OLE, which was a total pain in the ass in Win3.1, but which I do every
>>time I open up exchange.
>
>What's OLE?
Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
presentation inside another electronic document.
Like nightshade said, it is bloated and a really poor implimentation. There
isn't any point to creating all those sopies of the document becuase of the
uglyness of IMAP[1].
A better and more responsible thing would be to put the relevant file on a
shared network volume and then have it linked in the sent email.
>>> I kinda like that.
>>
>>I don't, becuase there are too many places to go, and I hate interrupting a
>>paticular train of thought in reading something to go elsewhere.
>
>Well, I really like it in educational stuff. Like anything on philsophy.
>because so many ideas get cross referneced, it's nice to be able to click
>ona word and get it's defintion, etc.
That is a nice feature.
But I just like reading everything in order, and then count on making the
linkages in my head. It infuriates me that there might be something in the
document that I might be missing because I followed a link somewhere and
ended up learning more about 15th century dress patterns.
>>I much prefer the links to be in an easily accesable place for referal and
>>return.
>>
>>The exception would be mailto: embedded when someone is mentioned, and
>define
>>or image links for a particlar unknown concept or word.
>
>Oh yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about.
>
>Though I think that a hypertext'd fiction piece could be very interesting.
It has been done. I recall having an interactive comic book on the C64,
where one followed various characters about and when one encountered a
particular concept you could hop onto a different path.
Kinda like 'choose yur own adventure' books, but different.
May the One shine on us all, even if we are listening to 80's radio.
--
benton -- bento...@mediaone.net -- ICQ: 32861590
love will
tear us apart
benton, UberPosuer
--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--) wrote:
>In article <s25li8...@corp.supernews.com>, "The Man-Like Madness"
><mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> >Like OLE, which was a total pain in the ass in Win3.1, but which I do every
>> >time I open up exchange.
>
>> What's OLE?
>
>object linking extension? it's that obnoxious shite that allows you to
>paste an excel document into a word document, then edit the table with all
>the standard excel tools later.
Embedding.
Basically, yes.
>it is the harbinger of extreme document bloat, an internet standards
>killer for your intranet, and it doesn't play nice with others.
The fucking *Xerox Star* did it better. It made no differentiation between
various kinds of documents made with it's tools. You didn't have to do extra
v00d00 to embed a graph into a presentation, fer example. All the tools to
modify everything were in everything.
>apple tried something similar a while back (opendoc, was it?), and it died
>a horrible death because it sucked. m$ document intergration sucks balls,
>too, but it didn't die because it says gatesware on the side and appeals
>to managers.
We haven't had a thread about the ruling on M$ yet, have we? I'd put it
together, but I'm waiting for one of the more legally inclined minds on a.g.
to do it so we can get a proper analysis.
May the One shine on us all, even if when M$ is gone/brokenup/different,
what do we do now?
The Man-Like Madness
>Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
>presentation inside another electronic document.
Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
>>Well, I really like it in educational stuff. Like anything on philsophy.
>>because so many ideas get cross referneced, it's nice to be able to click
>>ona word and get it's defintion, etc.
>
>That is a nice feature.
>
>But I just like reading everything in order, and then count on making the
>linkages in my head. It infuriates me that there might be something in the
>document that I might be missing because I followed a link somewhere and
>ended up learning more about 15th century dress patterns.
Well, I love learning anything new, I'm an information junkie, so when I'm
reading multimedia enclyclopedias and whatnot, the wandering off into far
fields is half the fun. I love Encarta to death (though a REAL mm
enclyclopedia would be cooler).
And it's great when a really weird word is linked to it's defintion.
GOBLIN
==================================
"Capital punishment turns the state into a murderer. But imprisonment
turns the state into a gay dungeon-master." - Emo Philips
>>>I much prefer the links to be in an easily accesable place for referal
and
>>>return.
>>>
>>>The exception would be mailto: embedded when someone is mentioned, and
>>define
>>>or image links for a particlar unknown concept or word.
>>
>>Oh yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about.
>>
>>Though I think that a hypertext'd fiction piece could be very interesting.
>
>It has been done. I recall having an interactive comic book on the C64,
>where one followed various characters about and when one encountered a
>particular concept you could hop onto a different path.
>
>Kinda like 'choose yur own adventure' books, but different.
>
>May the One shine on us all, even if we are listening to 80's radio.
>
benton, UberPosuer
--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--) wrote:
>In article <088lOJEt2nXLxo...@4ax.com>, "benton, UberPosuer"
><bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>> We haven't had a thread about the ruling on M$ yet, have we?
>
>see Re: Microsoft Monopoly Judge...
That was *after* I posted the original. ;)
See, alt.gothic is like a Crackerjack Box.
There is always a prize at the bottom.
It may not be the one that you want though, it may be a sucky lemon-yellow
plastic ring.
>> May the One shine on us all, even if when M$ is gone/brokenup/different,
>> what do we do now?
>
>ummm? improve drastically?
I think that things are going to march lock-step in Bill Land a fair while
yet.
But I also think that there will be a lot more interesting products out
there by many different vendors.
Maybe M$ will even improve it's OSen?
>--nightshade--
> {M$ is not gone, they just need to purchase a few appellate judges}
The quip is that M$ can't be a monopoly, becuase they simply aren;t
organized enough.
They don't even have smoky back room to coordinate their shady deals. They
do it all over email, which is delightfully subpeonable.
May the One shine on us all, even if sorting though your average office's
internal mail is likely to be insanely boring.
benton, UberPosuer
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>benton, UberPosuer wrote in message ...
>>Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
>>presentation inside another electronic document.
>
>Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
Mildly useful. Exchange hates letting go of the documents, though. If you
try to do an intuitive cut/paste on the document, in general you just get a
broken link where you tried to stick it. You have to Save As... the document
and then the location.
Stupid interface mistakes.
>>>Well, I really like it in educational stuff. Like anything on philsophy.
>>>because so many ideas get cross referneced, it's nice to be able to click
>>>ona word and get it's defintion, etc.
>>
>>That is a nice feature.
>>
>>But I just like reading everything in order, and then count on making the
>>linkages in my head. It infuriates me that there might be something in the
>>document that I might be missing because I followed a link somewhere and
>>ended up learning more about 15th century dress patterns.
>
>Well, I love learning anything new, I'm an information junkie, so when I'm
>reading multimedia enclyclopedias and whatnot, the wandering off into far
>fields is half the fun.
Yes/no. As I presented elsewhere (( I think, I might have just thought of it
and not written it )) if you have to read Hamlet, wandering off into lala
land might gain you all manners of other information, but you haven't read
Hamlet.
I'm just being a grouch. It is a minor quibble.
Depending on your connection and the time of the day, I suggest you check
out everything.slashdot.org
Y'll cream your jeans. Check out the authors for the entries for goth-type
things. ;)
I think that my definition for ethernet is still up after like a zillion
years.
> I love Encarta to death (though a REAL mm
>enclyclopedia would be cooler).
That is the way that Brittanica is going. There is something about a Real
Encylopedia which is so much more satisfying somehow. As a wag put it, it is
hard to cuddle up with a CD-ROM.
>And it's great when a really weird word is linked to it's defintion.
I will have a copy of the OED someday. In print. All 9 zillion volumes. I
will start from the beginning and not finish until I have reached the end.
My life will then have attained fullness.
May the One shine on us all, even if it is some inredebly obscene sum for
that work.
exile
> >Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
> >presentation inside another electronic document.
>
> Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
Like clicking on a link in Pegasus and opening an url in Netscape.
It's actually one of the nice things about windows.
exile
> <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > We haven't had a thread about the ruling on M$ yet, have we?
>
> see Re: Microsoft Monopoly Judge...
We could do it this way:
Microsoft is like a pomegranate, isn't it? {As opposed to a burrito}
Or an aardvark...
diathesis
00:14:29 -0800):
: Relax." I want to run sound on it as well, but I'm having trouble getting
: the sound file small enought o make it less-than-incredibly-obnoxious.
Sound on a website that isn't a very well done media piece (say,
flash/java somethingorother) is almost always obnoxious. I'd stay away
from it, were I you.
: Is that possible, tables within tables?
:
: Which is better to use, percentage based widths, or fixed widths? I have no
: idea what the standard screenwidth is, or any of that stuff, which makes
: designing this stuff hard.
Nesting tables is possible and useful. Be careful with it, extensively
nested tables make your source ugly and complicated, and slow down the
rendering process.
Since people's res varies from, say, 640x480 (lots of people who don't
know much about their computer run at low res, although some people just
like low res) to 1600x1200 (and up, I suppose, but I know several people
who run at 1600x1200 and none who run higher), the ideal website
design does not constrain, but rather flows at almost any resolution and
text size.
However, it's certainly possible to do a good design that constrains, it
just doesn't flow as well in any random resolution. It's up to you. My
general advice would be to start with some constrained designs in fixed-
width tables if you feel unsure, but that your end goal should be a
design that flows in almost any resolution.
- diathesis
--
diathesis "that which does not kill us makes us stranger"
http://www.synecdoche.com/
klaatu
>
> On Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:56:56 -0500,
> --nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--) wrote:
>
> >In article <088lOJEt2nXLxo...@4ax.com>, "benton, UberPosuer"
> >
> >> We haven't had a thread about the ruling on M$ yet, have we?
> >
> >see Re: Microsoft Monopoly Judge...
>
Oopsies, "my bad" -- I should have given all due credit to you in that
article. Well, didn't you say you were too tired?
>
> See, alt.gothic is like a Crackerjack Box.
>
> There is always a prize at the bottom.
>
> It may not be the one that you want though, it may be a sucky lemon-yellow
> plastic ring.
Sorreee....
>
> >> May the One shine on us all, even if when M$ is gone/brokenup/different,
> >> what do we do now?
> >
> >ummm? improve drastically?
>
> I think that things are going to march lock-step in Bill Land a fair while
> yet.
I dunno, in the Washington Post "tech classifieds" there was a nice and very
glowing report about Linux...
>
> But I also think that there will be a lot more interesting products out
> there by many different vendors.
>
> Maybe M$ will even improve it's OSen?
I think it will have to...
>
> >--nightshade--
> > {M$ is not gone, they just need to purchase a few appellate judges}
>
> The quip is that M$ can't be a monopoly, becuase they simply aren;t
> organized enough.
>
> They don't even have smoky back room to coordinate their shady deals. They
> do it all over email, which is delightfully subpeonable.
Think they'll make _that_ mistake again?
>
> May the One shine on us all, even if sorting though your average office's
> internal mail is likely to be insanely boring.
>
> --
> benton -- bento...@mediaone.net -- ICQ: 32861590
>
> love will
> tear us apart
--
benton, UberPoseur
klaatu wrote:
>
> "benton, UberPosuer" wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:56:56 -0500,
> > --nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <088lOJEt2nXLxo...@4ax.com>, "benton, UberPosuer"
> > ><bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> We haven't had a thread about the ruling on M$ yet, have we?
> > >
> > >see Re: Microsoft Monopoly Judge...
> >
> > That was *after* I posted the original. ;)
>
> Oopsies, "my bad" -- I should have given all due credit to you in that
> article.
No need. I was cranky and bitchy and didn't have the tools at hand to make a
proper post. I was waiting to hear from radovic or Edyn...endy... That E name
on it.
> Well, didn't you say you were too tired?
More like boiling over with self-immolation. (( Ref. The Seven Sins ))
> >
> > See, alt.gothic is like a Crackerjack Box.
> >
> > There is always a prize at the bottom.
> >
> > It may not be the one that you want though, it may be a sucky lemon-yellow
> > plastic ring.
>
> Sorreee....
But yer my favorite yellow plastic ring! (( Ref. People of a.g. Part Five ))
> >
> > >> May the One shine on us all, even if when M$ is gone/brokenup/different,
> > >> what do we do now?
> > >
> > >ummm? improve drastically?
> >
> > I think that things are going to march lock-step in Bill Land a fair while
> > yet.
>
> I dunno, in the Washington Post "tech classifieds" there was a nice and very
> glowing report about Linux...
Still not a consumer OS. You don't realize how painfully stupid the average
computer user is.
> >
> > But I also think that there will be a lot more interesting products out
> > there by many different vendors.
> >
> > Maybe M$ will even improve it's OSen?
>
> I think it will have to...
It is way too early to call.
> > >--nightshade--
> > > {M$ is not gone, they just need to purchase a few appellate judges}
> >
> > The quip is that M$ can't be a monopoly, becuase they simply aren;t
> > organized enough.
> >
> > They don't even have smoky back room to coordinate their shady deals. They
> > do it all over email, which is delightfully subpeonable.
>
> Think they'll make _that_ mistake again?
Yes. Everything is over e-mail these days. Plots and assignations.
May the One shine on us all, even if e-mail can be a way to pass the day.
benton.
(( where have they been? ))
Aidan Skinner
>"The Man-Like Madness" <mka...@speakeasy.net> writes:
>> benton, UberPosuer wrote in message ...
>> >Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
>> >presentation inside another electronic document.
>>
>> Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
>
> Like clicking on a link in Pegasus and opening an url in Netscape.
It's easy to do with a simple regexp (to detect the link) and a shell
call.
Slrn has this. Pine could. It's trivial. You don't need OLE.
- Aidan
--
"I say we just bury him and eat dessert"
http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk/aidan/
OpenPGP Key Fingerprint: 9858 33E6 C755 7D34 B5C5 316D 9274 1343 FBE6 99D9
exile
> In article <38275D03...@mediaone.net>, "benton, UberPoseur"
> <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> > > I dunno, in the Washington Post "tech classifieds" there was a nice and
>
> > Still not a consumer OS. You don't realize how painfully stupid the average
> > computer user is.
>
>
> by those standards, winblows isn't a consumer OS either.
I think kde right out of the box is pretty damned easy... It's no more
difficult than windows anyway.
They're going to have to do something about installs and distribution
compatibility though or this os ain't never going to make it.
exile
> In article <m3n1sp1...@21stcentury.net>, exile <ex...@21stcentury.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Like clicking on a link in Pegasus and opening an url in Netscape.
>
>
> {who says *harumph*, this works in almost every text-based app in my OS,
> and it doesn't have to be an actual link, just plain tex.}
The clipboard?
oddlystrange
"benton, UberPoseur" <bento...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Alto's word processor might have used the hypertext model, but they
figured
> that plain old wordprocessing was enough of an adventure. The
development of
> hypertext and the devlopment of the personal computer were pretty
concurrent.
True. But I don't think there was anything other than ideas. I certainly
don't think it would have been possible for a practical working model of
hypertext to have existed prior to the word processor.
> Well, I can recall a couple of bits of educational software in my
early days
> that used a hypertext-like model of the one that you describe.
Additionally, if you keep the definition VERY loose. The spell checker
could qualify as the first practical use of hypertext.
Though once again not in the sense that hypertext has become on the web.
> That and the linkage process fosters and creates and exchange of
knowledge. I
> know that I get a number of links every day from various sources which
beg to
> be clicked on and transported to their knowledge.
Exactly. A collective sense of information. If you think about it we've
been heading for this for a while with the town newspaper sharing time
with the television enws, and the network news and so on.
Now it seems there is almost a collective pool of information out there.
Available to be tapped at a whim. This to me is astounding.
A library had to carry to research material you needed. They needed to
have enough books. Someone had to pay to publish the books. Etc. etc.
> It is cool. Kind of. I like the old web better. I know that the web
sucks for
> most people with slow connections. The kind of service that I peddle
is the
> only solution.
I like both webs. I love the graphical aspect of it. It is an art unto
itself and combines the two things I love -- technology and design. To
me the new web is a beautiful thing to behold.
But then again the old web was far more practical.
However, I suspect that in 10 years a modem will seem as archaic as a
punch card.
> I find that more fufilling than the web, becuase while the web is
> participatory, it is largely static (( I was going to say
non-interactive, but
> that would sound kind of silly )) in comparison to USENET.
Well in comparison I could see that. However I find the web more
intelligent in a lot of ways. I also find it something that I can
control better. I go looking for the inspiration on the web. Here I have
to wait for it.
> I've bought a few things. Nothing expensive.
Oh sketchy and I prolly do 50 percent or more of our crap shopping over
the web. About the only thing we buy non-web is groceries.
> I could order a catalogue just as easily, but then I don't have to
wait for it
> in the mail.
I prefer to just go geddit. I typically know what I want and its a
matter of finding it at the best price. In that respect I love the web.
I recently had to find a *new* (as in not used) camera lense for my
camera in the $100 range. All the stores in the city had the new lense
around $175. Most online places had it for $126. I finally found it for
$103 at walmart.com! (they don't carry the lense at any of the local
walmarts here).
> I've been generally satisfied with the goods I have purchased.
As have I. I've never been "e-screwed" so to speak. Then again I don't
buy stuff of eBay or off pages with rainbow colored dividers and the
like. I try to use places I trust, and the sellers on eBay are not among
that group.
> Wait a second. The cost of web publishing is pretty much nil.
Now. I don't beleive that this will always be the case. I'm quite
fearful of what may be down the road for the web.
> If you don't
> want to do a free site, there are many low cost web hosting services
out
> there, or you can just ask someone who does have a web server for a
smidgen of
> space.
Yes, but how long can that last? How long will bring a hosting company
on the web be affordable.
There's been a move recently for advertisers to stop doing banner ads.
Studies are coming out sayign they're ineffective.
If the banners go a lot of the "free" web hosting companies are not
going to have a beens of support.
Wave goodbye to the free web.
Supporting a site is easy. Supporting a domain or a hosting service is
not.
> Won't happen. There are *endless* frontiers. It isn't as though there
is a
> finite amount of web to go around. That is thinking like the domain
squatters.
> There is always More Space.
But at what cost?
Think about it.
If you wanted to start something called amazon.com in 1996 just getting
yourself in business could happen for less than $1000. All you needed
was to buy a domain name, set yourself up on a backbone, and make a web
page (that's like $350 or so). Perhaps buy a handful of banner ads. Try
to spread word through the community and the like... for the most part,
back then there weren't banner ads so this was mostly free sidewalk
pounding stuff. Support and the like would take the other chunk.
If you wanted to do it today -- and you wanted to make it a VIABLE
business pounding the virtual pavement to advertise isn't going to be
enough. You'll need to buy commercial air time. Get ads on popular
pages.
You're looking at that initial $1000 in 1996 now being somewhere around
$10,000 to get a large-scale "e-business" off the ground.
Granted you can still "mom-n-pop" yourself here and there. Plenty of
people are doing it. But the acheivement of the web equivalent of a blue
chip business is now very much out of the no-capital start-up's reach.
That's part of what I'm talking about. What I am referring to is the
fact that now advertising spending can win over content on the web.
The best site might not win, but rather the one that can advertise the
largest.
> With redirects and other shenanigans that web sites pull now, it would
be hard
> to make clear.
Actually not really. I was thinking more along the lines of the
"history" tab in MSIE being made a lot more practical.
The most basic adapatation of this would be for the tab to follow the
path you've taken in a outline kind of form. Think perhaps how dejanews
shows threads.
Slowly indenting each click -- for instance if you started at a search
engine and went to a site, realise that that site didn't have the
answer, backed up went to a new site, followed a link on that site,
Followed a link to a different site, and then after getting your answer
typed in a new URL to look up something else your tree might look like
this:
search engine
L__How to be goth
L__Gothic Clothes
L___How to dress goth
L____Make Cloves Fast!
Search Engine
> May the One shine on us all, even if we've been listening to a lot
more JD
> recently.
Well ... uhhh me too.
oddlystrange
(who says the MGB is stalking me!)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www
oddlystrange
kla...@clark.net wrote:
> Crap, you lose.
You've let me down! boo!!!! You're supposed to know everything published
in science fiction since the alien space ship cave drawings!
> I don't think it was the 60s, more like the 70s, I'm
> thinking for the moment that it might have been either Mack Reynolds,
or
> Dean Ing, though as a long shot I could suggest that it might have
been
> Jerry Pounelle.
All I know is the guy lives on a house boat somewhere and is hella
bitter about not getting the level of credit for inventing the concept
of hypertext that he thinks he deserves.
> Heh heh. The only use I've ever really had for it was for putting a
blinking
> cursor in hypertext, for an on-line communication.
Now there's a use I hadn't thought of before... a blink around the pipe
symbol for some geeky graphical trick. I may just use this once to say
I've done it!
> Geezer.
Yeah, didn't I tell you, my last name is Cern.
> Absolutely. That's why a Free InterNet (that's also very cheap) is
possibly
> the single most important thing in the world, outside of having air to
> breathe, etc.
I do agree. I think once you've taken care of the basic living
necessetites the freedom of *all* people to communicate in their own
way is important.
Granted that doesn't extend to usenet if you ask me
It falls under the fact that I actually consider usenet far more of a
push technology than the web. You get someone's post here whether you
want it or not. You have to go looking for stuff on the web.
There should be a slight level of resistriction on that. THough mostly I
think that restriction falls under commercial advertising.
> The Corporate Server Farm is
> going to be the thing that will return us to the Bad Old Days of
"freedom of
> the press belongs to whoever can afford one".
EXACTLY. That's my fear. That the ability to publish will be put out of
the reach of *FREE*
If it costs more than a walk down to your local library to use the
machines there to make a web page the web is no longer truly free.
oddlystrange
(who likes this topic! This is the most interesting thread here for a
LONG time)
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - - - - - -
.
.
.
.
.
.
Matt Andrews
>On 08 Nov 1999 03:58:34 -0600, exile <ex...@21stcentury.net> wrote:
>>"The Man-Like Madness" <mka...@speakeasy.net> writes:
>>> benton, UberPosuer wrote in message ...
>>> >Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
>>> >presentation inside another electronic document.
>>>
>>> Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
>>
>
>call.
>
>Slrn has this. Pine could. It's trivial. You don't need OLE.
Could? Does. The only thing Pine "lacks" compared to other mail
clients in the other OS is ability to click on stuff to launch
virii^H^H^H^H^Hattachments.
--
Dream well...
Curgoth
Narnia
<mka...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>http://www.darksites.com/souls/goth/goblin108/index.html
The one thing I can suggest is to make the text colour a bit lighter.
It's hard to read on my monitor.
=Narnia=
http://www.velvet.net/
Narnia
--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--)
wrote:
>heh. remember when the html reference guides were one web page, and not
>terribly long at that? (html 2.o was a single RFC, IIRC)
Yep.
<sigh>
>i've done cgi, javascript, dynamic pages, etc. and i'm sick of it all.
They all have their uses, but most people don't use them correctly.
The vast majority of sites which use 'flashy things' are huge wastes
of time and space.
>i'm thinking of designing a web site which caters first and foremost to
>text-based browsers.
I wish more people would; it's what I do for my site. I'm currently
working on making my site seamless and cross-browser compatible; the
only way to truly do that is to have it cater to text-based browsers,
which basically ensures that it will look wonderful and load quickly
on any GUI browser. I cannot understand why more people don't do the
same.
=Narnia=
http://www.velvet.net/
siobhan
>I wish more people would; it's what I do for my site. I'm currently
>working on making my site seamless and cross-browser compatible; the
>only way to truly do that is to have it cater to text-based browsers,
>which basically ensures that it will look wonderful and load quickly
>on any GUI browser. I cannot understand why more people don't do the
>same.
Because they suck.
HTH
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.interlog.com/~siobhan} sio...@interlog.com
"The pen is mightier than the sword. The neat thing
about a keyboard though is that it weighs more and
you can get a much better batting grip."~TSM
klaatu
>
> It was a dark and stormy night when nar...@velvet.net (Narnia) wrote:
>
> >I wish more people would; it's what I do for my site. I'm currently
> >working on making my site seamless and cross-browser compatible; the
> >only way to truly do that is to have it cater to text-based browsers,
> >which basically ensures that it will look wonderful and load quickly
> >on any GUI browser. I cannot understand why more people don't do the
> >same.
>
> Because they suck.
>
> HTH
>
> Siobhan
Okay then dammit. I will have to submit myself to scrutiny. See
http://earthops.org/ which is the Linux box warming my feet, it's served at
only POTS at 28.8 compressed. So it's essential to have my pages be simple.
Now you don't have to slag on my colorscheme since it's not a gothic site,
just do me a favor and see if it's remotely usable for almost anyone.
klaatu
>
> In article <38232157...@clark.net>,
> kla...@clark.net wrote:
>
> > Crap, you lose.
>
> You've let me down! boo!!!! You're supposed to know everything published
> in science fiction since the alien space ship cave drawings!
Yeah, but I can't recall reading that exact piece.
>
> > I don't think it was the 60s, more like the 70s, I'm
> > thinking for the moment that it might have been either Mack Reynolds,
> or
> > Dean Ing, though as a long shot I could suggest that it might have
> been
> > Jerry Pounelle.
>
> All I know is the guy lives on a house boat somewhere and is hella
> bitter about not getting the level of credit for inventing the concept
> of hypertext that he thinks he deserves.
Um, David Drake maybe? Or could it have been the guy who did the _Titan_ and
_Blue Champagne_ stuff, which would be John Varley? Crap, if it _was_
Varley, he ought to be madder 'n' fuck, it would be yet-another case of a
former homeless person getting dicked out of a fortune he thought up while
shivering in the warehouse district of Austin's endless winter rains.
>
> > Heh heh. The only use I've ever really had for it was for putting a blinking
> > cursor in hypertext, for an on-line communication.
>
> Now there's a use I hadn't thought of before... a blink around the pipe
> symbol for some geeky graphical trick. I may just use this once to say
> I've done it!
>
> > Geezer.
>
> Yeah, didn't I tell you, my last name is Cern.
>
> > Absolutely. That's why a Free InterNet (that's also very cheap) is possibly
> > the single most important thing in the world, outside of having air to
> > breathe, etc.
>
> I do agree. I think once you've taken care of the basic living
> necessetites the freedom of *all* people to communicate in their own
> way is important.
>
> Granted that doesn't extend to usenet if you ask me
>
> It falls under the fact that I actually consider usenet far more of a
> push technology than the web. You get someone's post here whether you
> want it or not. You have to go looking for stuff on the web.
>
> There should be a slight level of resistriction on that. THough mostly I
> think that restriction falls under commercial advertising.
I'll agree with you in practice, if not exactly in principle. UseNet is in
fact the most "push" of the technologies, and that's where the concent
restriction comes into play, if the server owners are paying out their own
money to forward someone else's advertising, that's just not right.
>
> > The Corporate Server Farm is
> > going to be the thing that will return us to the Bad Old Days of "freedom of
> > the press belongs to whoever can afford one".
>
> EXACTLY. That's my fear. That the ability to publish will be put out of
> the reach of *FREE*
>
> If it costs more than a walk down to your local library to use the
> machines there to make a web page the web is no longer truly free.
Hey, see an article in today's _Washington Post_ business section, it was
pretty in-detail about high-security corporate server farms, those guys make
A Fscking S#itload Of $$$ for each corporate client. So you know that
mom-n-pops are going to start charging what the market will bear, and places
like http://earthops.org/ (moi) could start doing the same if we could pay
for co-location space, or get our own address-space from IANA as well as a
fiberoptic gigabit link -- but the telco, which owns part of the serverfarm
industry, is not going to want to share the pie. So _right now_ go out and
get wired and crank up a server, and give server space to people for $20.00
a month for 20megs and dedicate a machine for cgi-bin. If your client isn't
high-profile corporate, medium security (nobody knows where it is <grin>)
will do -- but most importantly, you can server-farm for reasonable rates,
and help keep the rates down for the general public, which is what's most
essential.
In all truth, I am still not totally sure why my provider hasn't jacked
their rates to something totally unaffordable. If they do, I'll SBA declare
and get the loan for gigabit fiber and go serverfarm myself; it'll be the
only way for me to even have my own sendmail instad of depending on telco
POP3 servers.
>
> oddlystrange
>
> (who likes this topic! This is the most interesting thread here for a
> LONG time)
>
> --
> "Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
> -- Bobcat Goldwait
> referring to Alice Cooper
> --< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - - - - - -
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
"We look through a glass but darkly:
What we see is more colored by our beliefs,
than what we believe is colored by what we see."
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be
purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - P. Henry
Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
Re-transmission of this e-mail expressly prohibited.
Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/
exile
> In article <m33dugt...@21stcentury.net>, exile <ex...@21stcentury.net>
>
> > > wot, easy enough for the average luser to use and understand?
> > > by those standards, winblows isn't a consumer OS either.
>
> > I think kde right out of the box is pretty damned easy... It's no more
> > difficult than windows anyway.
>
> real continuous design outside the control panel, and some things you just
> plain need CLI for. i don't think this *should* be the case, but it makes
> it harder to hold kde/cde/gnome up as the entire user experience.
I didn't mean that at all... it is one aspect of linux that's as easy as
windows. I'm switching back and forth between enlightenment and scwm at the
moment... I think enlightenment's a fairly easy interface as
well... afterstep... Windowmaker. If you set it up straight out of trhe box
and just use it the way most normal folk do there's not a whole lot that's
really difficult about it.
Other than the damned installs and I'm still having problems getting gtk
stuff to compile. Suse's very own fucking RPM's don't work and I'm finding
that whole matter to be a bit pissy. At the moment I'm wholey sold on the
idea of sticking with Debian. If they were to put out a disk with a decent
gui install and get some sort of widespread "official" recognition... I
think a lot of the problem would be solved. 'Course a lot of the other
distributions would die then.
exile
> On 8 Nov 1999 22:57:09 GMT, Aidan Skinner <ai...@skinner.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 08 Nov 1999 03:58:34 -0600, exile <ex...@21stcentury.net> wrote:
> >>"The Man-Like Madness" <mka...@speakeasy.net> writes:
> >>> benton, UberPosuer wrote in message ...
> >>> >Object Linking and Embedding. Putting documents like a powerpoint
> >>> >presentation inside another electronic document.
> >>>
> >>> Right, I've seen that. I hate that.
> >>
> >> Like clicking on a link in Pegasus and opening an url in Netscape.
> >
> >It's easy to do with a simple regexp (to detect the link) and a shell
> >call.
> >
> >Slrn has this. Pine could. It's trivial. You don't need OLE.
You've forgotten emacs. :} It's not a bad feature all the same...
Look at what you can do with a well put together system... database
functions... instant update of data system wide {and I'm lumping dde in
here as well}. Over a network it's an extremely nice idea... it's not
trivial at all.
> Could? Does. The only thing Pine "lacks" compared to other mail
> clients in the other OS is ability to click on stuff to launch
> virii^H^H^H^H^Hattachments.
I'd be really surprised if Microsoft didn't have some of those in
development.
Nile Evil Bastard
oddlystrange <pe...@obscure.org> wrote:
:"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
: -- Bobcat Goldwait
: referring to Alice Cooper
Herion is a rael kliier.
--
http://netizen.com.au/ http://www.caube.org.au/ "Feeling that way about women
seemed pretty natural, too. After all, I was surrounded by media portrayals of
women as sexual creatures, things to be desired and lusted after. Was the world
then going to turn round and say 'Oh, by the way, that all-surrounding message
wasn't aimed at you, you just got it by accident'?" (Jennie Kermode)
klaatu
Slackware 7.0 is out, with glibc and everything. I may have to give it a
try. I've got to get another system up and running first, obviously, since I
am not about to overwrite the present one and have server downtime. But you
might want to give it a try, se http://www.slackware.com/
> --
> {exile} - http://www.freespeech.org/apophysis {v6.1} - ICQ# 47439354
>
> "Throw me the shadows of your life."
> B. Mackenzie
--
oddlystrange
<--nightshade--atgeocitiesN...@192.168.1.1>,
--nightshade--atge...@microsoft.com (--nightshade--)
wrote:
> footnotes.
Dude! You're so analog! [1]
oddlystrange
(who still thinks that's a good example)
[1] I actually heard someone using that in public like a slur. What has
god wroth? [2]
[2] Look ma! Hypertext!
--
"Golf has killed more rock stars than herion."
-- Bobcat Goldwait
referring to Alice Cooper
--< http://www.obscure.org/~perky >--- - - - -
Matt Andrews
>cur...@gothic.dyndns.org (Matt Andrews) writes:
>
>> Could? Does. The only thing Pine "lacks" compared to other mail
>> clients in the other OS is ability to click on stuff to launch
>> virii^H^H^H^H^Hattachments.
>
> I'd be really surprised if Microsoft didn't have some of those in
> development.
:) But the hard part is getting people to run them as root...
After they extarct them from the message into their home directory, etc.
IOW, anyone who gets an e-mail propagated virus in *nix deserves it.
--
Dream well...
Curgoth
exile
>
> Slackware 7.0 is out, with glibc and everything. I may have to give it a
> try. I've got to get another system up and running first, obviously, since I
> am not about to overwrite the present one and have server downtime. But you
> might want to give it a try, se http://www.slackware.com/
I think what I'll eventually do is just get a debian bootdisk that works put
together download the necessary files, reboot, delete and set everything back
up. The time I've wasted with incompatabilities is just too much. Debian uses
.deb files and I can keep it current over the net. I won't have to worry
about whether *.lib.so whatever is in /usr or usr/local or off in bumfuck
egypt. I don't mind compiling stuff... rather enjoy it as a matter of fact.
If I've got to watch it fail 2o times before I get everything fixed it's more
than a bit of a drag. Most of the stuff I want to use comes stock in Debian
anyway. {everything comes stock in Debian}
I may not be 100% knowledgable when it comes to computers... I do know one
hell of a lot about them though... If I'm having this many problems with the
damned upgrades {the system's incredible... I'm not faulting anything about
it.} ... your average user's going to be flat out lost. If that's in the
name of competition or some shit... this system won't ever get out of
geekland and onto the desktops of the world. {Yes... I'm a trifle pissed
about it.}
I may wait 'till I come up with the cash for a new motherboard and processor
for my old system... It would be nice to simply run two computers and turn
the monitors on and off as opposed to the restart thing... some things I just
can't do in linux yet, but I really can't see using anything else for a
personal system. Windows is just depressing to log back into.
exile
Thank you but that attitude is just stupid.
The easiest way to do that would be to put instructions in the body of the
message.
This system, in order to make it has got to be user friendly... that means
friendly to any user including those that don't have the time to read a
stack of manuals, those that are afraid to do anything other than what the
instructions tell them and folk that just aren't interested.
Do you really think linux needs to stay the property of sysadmins and
programmers?
Matt Andrews
> This system, in order to make it has got to be user friendly... that means
> friendly to any user including those that don't have the time to read a
> stack of manuals, those that are afraid to do anything other than what the
> instructions tell them and folk that just aren't interested.
That depends on how you define "make it". I don't think linux should
become everybody's OS.
IMHO, it has it's place in the hands of those who can understand it
(the sysadmins and programmers you mention below, plus those who do
other stuff, but are intersted anyway) and in network environments
where there's someone doing the admin work.
I think there are limits to how user-friendly a system can be made
before it starts to get stupid.
> Do you really think linux needs to stay the property of sysadmins and
> programmers?
No, but OTOH, I don't see it as being usable for the LCD either, not w/o
mucking up some of the Good Things about linux. A lot of people will
have trouble keeping track of multiple user accounts, for example.
If the box is being maintained as a part of a network, with a network
admin to do the root-level stuff, then fine, a lot of the user-level
stuff can be handled by the user, but I don't see linux as being
the OS for everyone at home, not without it being changed substantially.
Thus far, most of the GUI/user-friendly aspects of linux have been
added *on top* of the exisitng stuff, so that the "hard" way to
do things is still there. I have my doubts about how far this
can take linux.
I'm of the opinion, though, that the world could use a few
solid operating systems, each targetted at a particular
market. There's no need for one OS to have the entire
market. YMMV.
--
Dream well...
Curgoth