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What exactly is a Goth?

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Skeoch and Prue

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to

I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

skeoch


Tarik Dozier

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
How's that for a unifying force?


"If you'll excuse me... I must seek knowledge and its bastard son, truth."

== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
Webmaster / New Media Center Asst. Coordinator, UIUC Undergraduate Library
Computer Systems Specialist / Asst. Network Manager, Hobbico
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==

Press any key to continue or any other key to quit

oddlystrange

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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Skeoch and Prue (tesl...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
: answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
: Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

when you know the answer to this question, but cna no longer verbalize it
well then you're goth

oddlystrange

(who says it's that or when you get too tired to verbalize it *again* and
jut send said person to the FAQ)
--
oddlystrange @-- the perkygoff fairy godmother --@ pe...@obscure.org
------------(who can't think of something to say here.)----------------
perkygoff east coast branch office now located at:
http://www.obscure.org/~perky

Twilight

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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Tarik Dozier wrote:

>
> On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:
>
> > I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> > answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> > Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>
> The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
> How's that for a unifying force?

oh dear. did you see (here, Twilight assumes someone is from the states)
the sunday comics this past weekend??? They had "political buttons we'd
like to see". And one, which I *shall* own before I die, is
"I'm anti~Macarena... and I vote!"
heehee!
Mixed Media, Sunday the 20th, 1996 :)
Whips and snorts and laughs and kisses~~~
~T~

Celine

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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Tarik Dozier <t-do...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:
>> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
>> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
>> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
>How's that for a unifying force?
> "If you'll excuse me... I must seek knowledge and its bastard son, truth."
>== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================

more seriously. goths are embittered/hopeful romantics with great
style


Tarik Dozier

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Celine wrote:

> Tarik Dozier <t-do...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:
> >> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> >> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> >> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
> >The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
> >How's that for a unifying force?

> more seriously. goths are embittered/hopeful romantics with great
> style

Well, that too. But answers like that seem best left to the FAQs.


"If you'll excuse me... I must seek knowledge and its bastard son, truth."

== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================

Tarik Dozier

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Twilight wrote:

> Tarik Dozier wrote:
> > On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:
> > > I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> > > answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> > > Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

> > The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
> > How's that for a unifying force?

> oh dear. did you see (here, Twilight assumes someone is from the states)
> the sunday comics this past weekend??? They had "political buttons we'd
> like to see". And one, which I *shall* own before I die, is
> "I'm anti~Macarena... and I vote!"

Ah, I missed that one. But I do like what I saw in one of the CCSO
computer sites on campus recently. Posted between a game ban sign and
a message warning users to remain at their computers:


"This is officially a Macarena-free zone."

== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
Webmaster / New Media Center Asst. Coordinator, UIUC Undergraduate Library
Computer Systems Specialist / Asst. Network Manager, Hobbico
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==

This space was supposed to be intentionally left blank,
but some character came along and typed this drivel here.


Ron Cecchini

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an answer.
> I understand the "look" sort of speak

Oh you do, eh?

> but what exactly do Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

The "answer", I believe, is the same to your question above:
Tastes, preferences, biases, beliefs, looks, prejudices, intelligence quotients,
mental states, height, weight, hair color, wardrobe, ET AL - vary.

That's why I am constantly amused by the "Is this goth?" posts...

l8r

--
Ron Cecchini -- Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com
Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication
No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.

Ren

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to

> >> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> >> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do

> >> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

A goth is the negative polarized image of you. Just kidding.

--

http://www.cyberhighway.net/~ren

http://www.crux.org

Individuation

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
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*Eileen runs out and returns with a white tux on*

The FAQ! The FAQ boss! The FAQ!

*Fantasy Island music rolls in*

Eileen


On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>

> skeoch
>
>
>

---
^*^ ^*^ ^*^ ^*^ ^*^
Eileen R. Orzoff<orz...@students.uiuc.edu>
Individuation
"Darling you're the punishment for all my former sins. I let love in."
^*^ ^*^ ^*^ ^*^ ^*^

Eugene Ward

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to

Skeoch and Prue wrote:
>
> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>
> skeoch

well, we believe in many diff. things...
it is hard to generalise... i guess we are "different"
because we tend to be more insightful and open-minded...
basically, people stare at us funny-like and/or run away...
it is hard to viddy a thing like this...

waltre

Ren

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Oct 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/21/96
to

> : answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do

> : Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

Is this a trick question and is it going to be on the test?

Mykl

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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Skeoch and Prue <tesl...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<54fj7m$c...@camel2.mindspring.com>...

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>
This newsgroup........We stick together......We wear black........

We like fuzzy things
We like reading
We like learning
We like making fun of dumb ass questions

...we hate the Macarena....we really hate the Macarena..that is the glue
which binds

--
Mykl my...@obscure.org
Requiem Mass Website : http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/2755
"I'm the Black Knight! I'm invincible!!!"
"You're a looney..."

Christabel La Motte

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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In <54fj7m$c...@camel2.mindspring.com>,

Skeoch and Prue <tesl...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in?

Gothic Women.

> What makes them different from others?

The grace and kindness of the all-powerful Toilet Duck, who gives us
Gothic Women.

--
Christabel "or maybe it's just our rapier wit, dashing good looks, and
twisted senses of humour" La Motte


Twilight

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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Tarik Dozier wrote:

>
> On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Twilight wrote:
>
> > oh dear. did you see (here, Twilight assumes someone is from the states)
> > the sunday comics this past weekend??? They had "political buttons we'd
> > like to see". And one, which I *shall* own before I die, is
> > "I'm anti~Macarena... and I vote!"
>
> Ah, I missed that one. But I do like what I saw in one of the CCSO
> computer sites on campus recently. Posted between a game ban sign and
> a message warning users to remain at their computers:
>

> "This is officially a Macarena-free zone."

We have a coalition on campus against all the scary evil
sorority~I~have~not~one~brain~cell and fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper
people here, that the second we hear the macarena, we shall commit mass
suicide in protest.
if you think I'm joking, I've been told they play the song at every
football game (I personally do *not* watch football)
THAT scares me more than anything. 25000 people dancing *the same dance*
Whips and Shudders and Scary Thoughts~~~~
~T~

Gold

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

In article <54goo0$r...@lynx.unm.edu>, Sel...@unm.edu said...
>Tarik Dozier <t-do...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>>On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:

>>> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
>>> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do

>>> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

>>The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
>>How's that for a unifying force?

> more seriously. goths are embittered/hopeful romantics with great
>style

Embittered? This twists us into what we are...
Hopeful? What we wish we would have...
Romantics? It's a personal thing...
Great style? Goes without saying... |->

--
Au. - go...@tpnet.co.nz - "Abuse of power comes as no surprise."
- shamelessly ripped from alt.gothic
Pope (second class), First Church of Virtual Eris
http://www.tpnet.co.nz/~gold
Dictator of KAOS (UoC'96)
Computer Science Student
Reality Engineer
net.goth

Ron Cecchini

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

Twilight <lucr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> We have a coalition on campus against all the ...
fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper
> people here,

Boy.
I'm glad that you oh-so-goth (wannabe) types are above resorting to stereotypes.

Am I the only fucking person who see the apparent contradiction in
a) "goths" lamenting and crying how everyone judges them because of how
they look and act, and then turning around and
b) judging others because of how *they* look or because of what social
group(s) they belong to?

Get a clue.

> THAT scares me more than anything. 25000 people dancing *the same dance*

Yeah, like goth-dancing is so varied.
Hey, I hate the macarena as much as the next person (though I do admit to
having done it in a drunken stupor 3 years ago in California, before it
became popular). But "goth-dancing" isn't exactly, uh, complicated (?).
Hey, I ain't knockin' it, and I ain't sayin' I don't do it.

But the truth is: get a roomful of goths together, turn up the music,
and... I'll be *damned* if it doesn't look like they're all doin' the
same dance...

Have a bleak day.
[ we sure as hell are in Boston ]

Edward Johnson

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

Ron Cecchini (Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:

: Am I the only fucking person who see the apparent contradiction in


: a) "goths" lamenting and crying how everyone judges them because of how
: they look and act, and then turning around and
: b) judging others because of how *they* look or because of what social
: group(s) they belong to?

: Get a clue.

Yeah, we should be ashamed of ourselves. They merely judge us cos
we are walking down the street and minding our own business. We are
judging them for insulting, beating up or raping people we care about. I
feel so close minded.

: Hey, I hate the macarena as much as the next person (though I do admit to


: having done it in a drunken stupor 3 years ago in California, before it
: became popular).

It's the Electric Slide of the 90's. Face it. We're all going to
succumb to it sooner or later.

But "goth-dancing" isn't exactly, uh, complicated (?).

You've never seen the righ girl do it.

: But the truth is: get a roomful of goths together, turn up the music,
: and... I'll be *damned* if it doesn't look like they're all doin' the
: same dance...

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought at Convergence...

Ever and Always
Edvamp


Twilight

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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Ron Cecchini wrote:
>
> Twilight <lucr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > We have a coalition on campus against all the ...
> fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper
> > people here,
>
> Boy.
> I'm glad that you oh-so-goth (wannabe) types are above resorting to stereotypes.

oh, I'm not above resorting to stereotypes, especially not when the so
called fraternity boys beat up one of my friends because she looked
different than they did. Nor am I when they won't even hand me things (ie
syllabus sheets) in class because they think I'm weird or Satanic. I
group them because they group me. I don't try to understand them because
they don't try to understand me. and aren't you stereotyping *me* by
calling me a 'wannabe'?

> Am I the only fucking person who see the apparent contradiction in
> a) "goths" lamenting and crying how everyone judges them because of how
> they look and act, and then turning around and
> b) judging others because of how *they* look or because of what social
> group(s) they belong to?

> no, maybe not. I speak for myself and myself only. I *am* a pretentious
bitch when it comes to them. I go to one of the top ten biggest
fraternity colleges in the nation. I've dealt with shit just walking to
class, wearing a black shirt and black skirt. I get called something
every day, usually nothing nice. I don't like where I am, so don't tell
me I should leave, I know that. I'm on scholarship, I can't afford to go
anywhere else.

> Get a clue.

I have one, thank you


>
> > THAT scares me more than anything. 25000 people dancing *the same dance*
>
> Yeah, like goth-dancing is so varied.

> Hey, I hate the macarena as much as the next person (though I do admit to
> having done it in a drunken stupor 3 years ago in California, before it

> became popular). But "goth-dancing" isn't exactly, uh, complicated (?).

> Hey, I ain't knockin' it, and I ain't sayin' I don't do it.


>
> But the truth is: get a roomful of goths together, turn up the music,
> and... I'll be *damned* if it doesn't look like they're all doin' the
> same dance...

maybe so. But it doesn't mean I have to like the macarena, does it?

~T~, confused as to why she's getting flamed this early in the morning

Ron Cecchini

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

In article <54j3lj$k...@linet06.li.net>, edv...@newshost.li.net (Edward
Johnson) wrote:

> Yeah, we should be ashamed of ourselves. They merely judge us cos
> we are walking down the street and minding our own business. We are
> judging them for insulting, beating up or raping people we care about. I
> feel so close minded.

So, let me get this straight, Ed:

You agree with the insinuation that "belonging to a fraternity" equates with
"being a rapist" and "beating people up for the hell of it" ?

And while I'm at it, as has already been stated here numerous times
('cause I've been lurking for a long time), pretentiousness is not a
concept foreign to many "goths". Hell, it's even in the friggin' Code.

Not meaning to start a war, just a discussion.

l8r

Lord of Wolves

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>

> skeoch

A "Goth" is a small fire engine that spews salad all over golden turkeys in
the Sahara when it rains.

No really...

Orren

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel where I can't hurt | orr...@darkling.com
I hurt where I can't feel | Orr...@aol.com
----Smashing Pumpkins | http://www.darkling.com/orrenm
T H E L O R D O F W O L V E S

DrX

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
to

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Skeoch and Prue wrote:

> I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
> answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
> Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?
>

I believe in myself. I don't think i'm different than others, I just
like different things. Much as someone who listens to Oasis is
_usually_ different than someone who listens to snoop doggy dog, i'm different in a similar
respect.
-drx
---
D...@netlabs.net (a.k.a. Valhalla)
http://www.netlabs.net/hp/drx/
"To be great is to be misunderstood" -Emerson
---


LordDrakon

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Oct 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/22/96
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(Skeoch and Prue) writes:

>I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an
>answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
>Goths believe in? What makes them different from others?

You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of
qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must
subscribe. As Ludwig Wittgenstein said, "The meaning of a word is its use
in the language". If someone calls themselves gothic, or are defined as
such by others who see them as being a goth, then functionally, that's
what they are. The word means what you *use* it to mean.

--
Lord Drakon (LordD...@aol.com)

"OK, I'm not Ron Carrier, so sue me for attempting to inject some
philosophy into this."

Edward Johnson

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
to

Ron Cecchini (Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:
: In article <54j3lj$k...@linet06.li.net>, edv...@newshost.li.net (Edward
: Johnson) wrote:

: > Yeah, we should be ashamed of ourselves. They merely judge us cos
: > we are walking down the street and minding our own business. We are
: > judging them for insulting, beating up or raping people we care about. I
: > feel so close minded.

: So, let me get this straight, Ed:

: You agree with the insinuation that "belonging to a fraternity" equates with
: "being a rapist" and "beating people up for the hell of it" ?

My university was only 18% greek, yet they accounted for 50% of
the date rapes, 75% of the pointless violence, and 90% of the drive by
insultings. Greek doesn't have to mean asshole, but I'm a gambling man
and I like to play the odds.

: And while I'm at it, as has already been stated here numerous times


: ('cause I've been lurking for a long time), pretentiousness is not a
: concept foreign to many "goths". Hell, it's even in the friggin' Code.

No one is as critical of a group as the people in it. Most goths
realize that there is a sillyness inherent in what we do. No one tears
down pretentious goths as much as other goths. The Goth Code, The Goth
Test, and other things were made partly for information and entertainment
value, but also to take the piss out of ourselves.


Ever and Always
Edvamp


Ron Cecchini

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
to

In article <54k4n1$5...@linet06.li.net>, edv...@newshost.li.net (Edward
Johnson) wrote:

> Greek doesn't have to mean asshole, but I'm a gambling man and I like to
> play the odds.

As long as you realize that your figures weren't statistically significant,
and that your conclusions are based on a very small set of empirical evidence,
and that your logic is.. well... illogical.

Your entitled to your opinions.
Just as I'm entitled to get pissed (though I shouldn't care) at such
ridiculous remarks and call people on it.

"Can't we all just get along?"
Peace

Andrew W Greenwood

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
to

: The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.

: How's that for a unifying force?

Disturbing Macarena story #273:

UCF recently held an international students forum/festival/whatever
to highlight the many different cultures of their students and the
whole diversity thing. The local paper covers it by running a
1/3 page picture and brief caption showing scads of students of all
sorts of nationalities do the Macarena. So much for diversity.

--Scarecrow

-----------------------------------------
Burn bright, dance hard, burn out and
don't give a damn about what others
think about your style of dance -
as long as it is your own.
-----------------------------------------
GothCode v2.5: GoEn6.5$DJ2$ TInAnYcs cDBRw5(8) PLGSa M3 ZGoiGo C6c a26-
b65 H179 g5T w6T r3 h3 s10 k5 Rz SsYy N0292 LusFL

Edward Johnson

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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Ron Cecchini (Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:

: As long as you realize that your figures weren't statistically significant,


: and that your conclusions are based on a very small set of empirical evidence,
: and that your logic is.. well... illogical.

Hang out at Hofstra University for one week. Interview the
security and people who work at the library and on campus rape counseling
center and then tell me I'm wrong.

Ever and Always
Edvamp


Dave Grave

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
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Does anyone have a copy of N&O's ep cd with "A Dozen Winters..." on it
that they'd sell me? da...@surfsupcafe.com


the Albatross

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Oct 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/23/96
to

Ron Cecchini wrote:

> Boy.
> I'm glad that you oh-so-goth (wannabe) types are above resorting to > stereotypes.

Screw you, frankly...
Many steroetypes have their basis in reality... For instance, I
have lived around rednecks on and off during my life... most of the
stereotype fits most of the individual cases...



>
> Am I the only fucking person who see the apparent contradiction in
> a) "goths" lamenting and crying how everyone judges them because of how
> they look and act, and then turning around and
> b) judging others because of how *they* look or because of what social
> group(s) they belong to?

Its like I just read EdVamp saying... playing the odds.
If you belong to a Greek organization, the chances of you having that
ever so appealing combination of ignorance and arrogance go way up.
There is also the fact that frat boys have *chosen* to belong to a group
whose identity is often based on beer and fucking vapid women at any
cost.
BTW, there is nothing wrong with judging other people, we do it every
minute of every day... the only problems arise when you become
fixed in your judgements, and become blinded to ambiguity and subtle
difference...


>
>
> But the truth is: get a roomful of goths together, turn up the music,
> and... I'll be *damned* if it doesn't look like they're all doin' the
> same dance...

They may look like they are doing the same dance... but even
a moment of close observation reveals that this is not so... I know
one girl that bends down until she is in a standing fetal position, then
quivers like Jello... In any case, the point is self-expression, whereas
the point of Macarena is conformity...



> Ron Cecchini -- Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com
> Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication
> No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.

I'm stereotyping you right now.
It'll be interesting to see if you turn out how I expect.

Albatross

David Gerard

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

Skeoch and Prue wrote:

: I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an


: answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do
: Goths believe in?

I believe ... I'll have another drink.

(well, someone had to say it.)


--
http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/goth/


Kirt Andrew Dankmyer

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

> We have a coalition on campus against all the scary evil
> sorority~I~have~not~one~brain~cell and fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper
> people here, that the second we hear the macarena, we shall commit mass
> suicide in protest.

Ah, yes, but do you have a branch of the UnFraternity (tm), Chi Beta
Bicycle?
-Fenris (who is glad he's not actually a _student_ at Wake Forest U)

--
Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- dank...@wfu.edu -- http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/
My opinions are my own. PGP public key available. Surreal poetry on request.
"I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night." --Milton

Kirt Andrew Dankmyer

unread,
Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

Tarik Dozier (t-do...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> The Macarena. We hate the Macarena.
> How's that for a unifying force?

Amen! Praise the God-Buscuit. Pass the ammunition.
-Fenris

Ron Cecchini

unread,
Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

In article <326ECB...@fix.net>, tpa...@fix.net wrote:

> Screw you, frankly...

Why thank you, and please don't call me "frankly"...

> Many steroetypes have their basis in reality...

Amen brother - been saying that for years...

But it still doesn't mean it's right, or that the stereotypes holds
all of the time, most of the time, or even part of the time.
A stereotype is a prejudice - a preconceived notion about something.
And reacting to a situation or person based upon a stereotype is called
a knee-jerk reaction. Ultimately, ignorant and illogical.

But I agree (as you say later on), that we all have our prejudices.
You can't be *alive* without having biases or prejudices of some sort -
whether they be good or bad. But it's how you react to 'em that I think
is important.

[ Wow. All this coming from a conservative? More on that in a sec - ]

> For instance, I have lived around rednecks on and off during my life...
> most of the stereotype fits most of the individual cases...

Well, having lived or worked on a farm most of my life up until the age of 18
[ most people don't know that about me - that I actually, at one time, used
to get up at 4:00am to go milk the cows... ]
I can say that it *wasn't* my experience that the people around me fit the
stereotype. Now, granted, we were the "upstate NY" "rednecks". Maybe we
differ from the *Southern* "rednecks". Dunno. But while we (a family
transplanted from Yonkers, NY) lived life in the slow(er) lane and enjoyed the
simple things, I don't remember once seeing a family of inbred "freaks", or a
Klan rally, or a black having to take a seat at the back of the bus (and being
that I have a black sister, I probably would've killed anyone that tried to do
such a thing).

> Its like I just read EdVamp saying... playing the odds.

Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant.

> If you belong to a Greek organization, the chances of you having that
> ever so appealing combination of ignorance and arrogance go way up.

Sort of like claiming to be "goth", right?

Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness",
"gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc.
So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant,
self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?

It's a good thing I don't judge everyone in this group, or even everyone
who actually *calls* themself a "goth", based on what a few people post...

> There is also the fact that frat boys have *chosen* to belong to a group
> whose identity is often based on beer and fucking vapid women at any cost.

Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?
It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you,
judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some
incidents that occurred at your school.

While I'm on my soapbox, what you don't hear about the fraternal system is
the plethora of campus activities and community involvement that most
fraternities participate in. All you hear, like on the nightly news, is
the *shit* that sometimes happens.

Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people
in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of
beer drinking and chasing women, right?

> BTW, there is nothing wrong with judging other people, we do it every
> minute of every day...

As I mentioned above, I agree that we all do it.
Again, doesn't mean it's right, but we all do it.
Everyone makes a first impression...
And the number of people who can truly *not* judge, or (what's a better word?)
*assess*, a person, based on their initial contact with that person, is
probably very small.

> the only problems arise when you become fixed in your judgements, and become
> blinded to ambiguity and subtle difference...

[ Ron scratches his head ]
I'm confused now...
So, are you saying that you *do* have a problem?
I mean, didn't you just say that you *choose* to "play the odds" and
trust in stereotypes?

...

But I agree with your statement.
As I also implied above, that used to be more of a problem of mine.
I mean, isn't it the stereotype that *all* conservatives are close-minded
bigots? It's not true, but that's the stereotype.

And while I've been a moderate on some issues for a long time, I admit
to being (oh, I won't use the phrase "close-minded"), um, more *resistant*
to the idea that certain types of people were anything other than "freaks".
[ hey, that was pretty good... ]

I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after
Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths), dressed
in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black
combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...

But now, while having no desire to dress like that exactly, I would just
look at that person and, well... probably not think anything. I wouldn't
care. Let that person be who/whatever they want to be. I still have a problem
with people who are blatant *posers*, but whatever... They're the ones
that look stupid.

> > Ron Cecchini -- Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com
> > Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication
> > No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
>
> I'm stereotyping you right now.

No kidding.
And I've known right along that my .sig probably turned off alot of people.
But I don't give a shit.
Why should I change it? To "fit in"?
Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?

So I *lift* *weights*. Oooooo... That makes me *bad*, right?

I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the
ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone-
induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss
is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging
along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare
anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while
I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death
with my one free hand...

Right?

You don't know anything about me or what I'm like in person...

...

So why am I here, if I am apparently so utterly turned off by so many of you?
Why?
'cause I realize that you can't judge the masses based on the actions of a few.

And while *my* prejudices about those that call themselves "goth" prevents me
from ever calling *myself* a "goth", the fact is that I am interested in, and
gravitate towards, most of the things that most goths are interested in.
I can't help that. I am what I am and I like what I like.
But I'm not going to change the way I look, act or think because it conflicts
with the way that The Elders have defined.
[ besides, I'd never find any PVC to fit these legs... ]

> It'll be interesting to see if you turn out how I expect.

I'm more complicated than you could imagine.
Don't even try to figure me out.
Pros couldn't.
Priests and Rabbis couldn't.
Neither could good friends of mine with extensive experience in the areas
of, oh, let's just say: all things mental.

Have a nice day.
And I really don't think you're a bad person.
Maybe you've just had some bad experiences...

My oh-so-anti-goth .sig to follow -

--

the Albatross

unread,
Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

> > Many steroetypes have their basis in reality...
>
> Amen brother - been saying that for years...
>
> But it still doesn't mean it's right, or that the stereotypes holds
> all of the time, most of the time, or even part of the time.
> A stereotype is a prejudice - a preconceived notion about something.
> And reacting to a situation or person based upon a stereotype is called
> a knee-jerk reaction. Ultimately, ignorant and illogical.

It is only a knee-jerk reaction if your judgement is sudden and final,
as I said.
It is a matter of your thinking beginning with the general
then gravitating to the specific as needed. Hardly illogical.

<snip>

<snip, about living on a farm>

Living on a farm does not make you a redneck.
My fathers side of my family owned a large ranch\farm and were very
literary people. A redneck is the sort of person you admit to never
having met.

will you excuse me if I just snip the rest?
Because I dont want to take the time to answer you point for point.
In any case, we will probably agree in the end, thats how these things
go.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? Or have I not been clear.

The original poster made a comment about "frat boys."
Now, anyone with half a brain knows what she is talking about.
Anyone with half a brain also knows that not all people in fraternities
are going to fit the steroetype. In fact there are many fraternities
that have a good purpose. If I rememeber right, Raphpat is in a
fraternity.
BUT, she is speaking of those that do fit the steroetype, and there are
many. Whats more, she is not speaking so much of frat boys as she is of
a tendency to mass thinking in the university that she rightly finds
unbecoming and frightening. If it bothers you so much, a simple,
"remember that not all people in a fraternity are clones", would have
done the trick.

Instead, you give her a lecture about how goths are misunderstood and
arent they hypocrites for judging people then whining about being judged
themselves. (I actually like to be misjudged. I'm addicted to it. I go
out of my way to give people the wrong idea about me.)

And all I said was, all people judge all people all the time... and it
only becomes a problem when people are closed in their judgements, so
that they cant see an individual for who they are. And that many
steroetypes have there basis in reality.

The term "frat boy", is going to be used around here, not to descibe
any particular person, but as a symbol of a certain type of conforming
and thoughtless behaviour. Redneck is used in the same way. "Gothier
than thou" is used in the same way. When such steroetypes are called on,
it is like any other use of language, if you dont know the meaning
behind the symbol then you will be misunderstanding.

You may well argue that "frat boy" is not a good symbol. It is a flawed
symbol for reasons already stated.

I beleive that you were deliberately misunderstanding the use of
the symbol in order to make some self-righteous point.

I was not stereotyping you on the fact that you life weights.
More on the "no excuses. shut up and train."

A

Twilight

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Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

Ron Cecchini wrote:
(not to me, I'm responding anyway)
<snip>

> Now, granted, we were the "upstate NY" "rednecks". Maybe we
> differ from the *Southern* "rednecks". Dunno. But while we (a family
> transplanted from Yonkers, NY) lived life in the slow(er) lane and enjoyed the
> simple things, I don't remember once seeing a family of inbred "freaks", or a
> Klan rally, or a black having to take a seat at the back of the bus (and being
> that I have a black sister, I probably would've killed anyone that tried to do
> such a thing).
>The northern 'rednecks' probably differ from the southern 'rednecks',
you're right in that. I've seen enough racism down here to last three
lifetimes. I wanted to go to a dance in HS with a african american friend
of mine, and my father wouldn't let me. Merely because he was black.


> Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant.

> do you?

> Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness",
> "gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc.
> So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant,
> self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?

I am to people I don't like.... especially when they try to say I'm a
ohsogoth wannabe




> Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?

I'll tell you what I know. Wait, I did. You ignored my answer.

> It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you,
> judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some
> incidents that occurred at your school.

*some* incidents??? Boy, you just don't know, do you? I've had friends
come crying to me because some frat boy tried to rape them at a party.
I've heard them make some of the most sexist and racist jokes I've ever
heard. One of the fraternities on campus BURNED DOWN a black fraterity's
house, and all they got was a year's suspension. I hear comments walking
to class about the way I dress, one of my friend's got beat up because
she had a lip ring, and they said they wanted to "rid the world of the
freaks". Some sorority wench wrote "fuck you you bitch" on my friends
door because she has a black boyfriend. Some girl wrote "you a freak" on
mine. Some girls in my dorm won't even get into the elevator with me
because of the way I look. and still, you assume we're making
generalizations??? I'll repeat what you said to me.
Get a clue.


>
> While I'm on my soapbox, what you don't hear about the fraternal system is
> the plethora of campus activities and community involvement that most
> fraternities participate in. All you hear, like on the nightly news, is
> the *shit* that sometimes happens.

> not down here. Not down here.

> Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people
> in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of
> beer drinking and chasing women, right?

of course not. Those are the 'wannabe' frat boys.


>
> I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after
> Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths), dressed
> in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black
> combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...

why? because they looked different than you?

> Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?
>
> So I *lift* *weights*. Oooooo... That makes me *bad*, right?
>
> I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the
> ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone-
> induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss
> is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging
> along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare
> anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while
> I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death
> with my one free hand...
>
> Right?
>
> You don't know anything about me or what I'm like in person...

as you know NOTHING of me or anyone else.


>
> ...
>
> So why am I here, if I am apparently so utterly turned off by so many of you?
> Why?

> I sit here, asking myself the same question

'cause I realize that you can't judge the masses based on the actions of
a few.
>

> I can't help that. I am what I am and I like what I like.


> But I'm not going to change the way I look, act or think because it conflicts
> with the way that The Elders have defined.

don't. but don't mock me for my beliefs. If I stereotyped frat boys, then
I *must* have a reason for it. Every one I've encountered is that way,
and I've encountered a *lot*.
And I know this wasn't a followup to anything I said, but since you
didn't answer what I *did* respond with, I figured I'd put my two cents
in for this one.
Twilight

Twilight

unread,
Oct 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/24/96
to

Kirt Andrew Dankmyer wrote:
>
> > We have a coalition on campus against all the scary evil
> > sorority~I~have~not~one~brain~cell and fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper
> > people here, that the second we hear the macarena, we shall commit mass
> > suicide in protest.
>
> Ah, yes, but do you have a branch of the UnFraternity (tm), Chi Beta
> Bicycle?
> -Fenris (who is glad he's not actually a _student_ at Wake Forest U)

nopers, but we have the ever present Lamda Sigma Delta! <efg>
~T~

Stryx

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

try http://www.chickasaw.com/~stryx/owlsnest
for a good non-partisan response.

M. Stryx


Ron Cecchini

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

tpa...@fix.net wrote:

> "remember that not all people in a fraternity are clones",
> would have done the trick.

I'll remember that next time.

> (I actually like to be misjudged. I'm addicted to it.
> I go out of my way to give people the wrong idea about me.)

Ha. Maybe we are a little alike...
While I wouldn't say that I'm "addicted" to it, I have purposely given
people the wrong idea before... And I do oftentimes amuse myself with
the thought that people are probably labelling me a dumb musclehed because
of they way I look & dress in public...

> I beleive that you were deliberately misunderstanding the use of
> the symbol in order to make some self-righteous point.

C'mon man... spare me the "self-righteous" dig.
I'm not a crusade of any sort.
I mean, it's not like this is the first time I've seen fraternities referred
to in a less than positive way...
I guess I really did misunderstand you (and her).
Yeah, I guess I'd prefer a better label for that symbol...
But now I know what you're talking about when you use it.
So I guess it'd be ok if I said something like:
"Why do so many of today's 'goths' exhibit that 'frat boy' image of mass
conformity and think they all have to wear black clothes and makeup?"

Peace bro.

Kirt Andrew Dankmyer

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

LordDrakon (lordd...@aol.com) wrote:
> You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of
> qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must

This gave me an interesting image...

Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's
apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when
you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate...
-Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)

Osiris

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

On 25 Oct 1996, Kirt Andrew Dankmyer wrote:

> LordDrakon (lordd...@aol.com) wrote:
> > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of
> > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must

> This gave me an interesting image...
> Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's
> apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when
> you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate...

And if you fail certification, and are equally lucky, you get the beating
of a lifetime. Either way, everybody wins!


"The opinions I have expressed are really your opinions as well, you just
refuse to admit it to yourself." -Tom Grassia

== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==

Be a realist. The glass is twice as large as it needs to be.


StrangeGirl

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Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Kirt Andrew Dankmyer wrote:
>
> LordDrakon (lordd...@aol.com) wrote:
> > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of
> > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must
>
> This gave me an interesting image...
>
> Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's
> apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when
> you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate...
> -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)Ack. I and some of my more sick and twisted friends (you should see th
mild ones) were dicussing forming an "Fashion Police" squad and going
around and giving out tickets to the particularly offensive...(like
the blonde california-tanning creme models in acid-wash denim and pink
sweaters and their ken-doll boyfreinds who show up to goth/industrial
clubs to gape at the wildlife). It is frightening hearing this idea out
of someone else.

(hive mind, anyone?)

StrangeGirl

john thomas flanagan

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

Kirt Andrew Dankmyer (dank...@wfu.edu) wrote:

: This gave me an interesting image...


:
: Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's
: apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when
: you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate...
: -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)

This gave ME an interesting flashback...

"What if they come in and tell us we're doing it wrong?"
"'They' who?"
"The Lesbian Task Force!"

-From "Floating Rhoda and the Glue Man"

John F.

Osiris

unread,
Oct 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/25/96
to

On 25 Oct 1996, john thomas flanagan wrote:

> This gave ME an interesting flashback...

> "What if they come in and tell us we're doing it wrong?"
> "'They' who?"
> "The Lesbian Task Force!"

> -From "Floating Rhoda and the Glue Man"

Yes! Yes!!! That play rocked! The Armory Free Theater is one of C-U's
most redeeming qualities. Speaking of which... I miss Naked Theater!


"The time has come for us to mount our donkeys and leave, for you are
beginning to bore our clearly deranged minds." -Dave Foley

== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================

Webmaster / New Media Center Asst. Coordinator, UIUC Undergraduate Library
Computer Systems Specialist / Asst. Network Manager, Hobbico

Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.


Ben Colborn

unread,
Oct 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/26/96
to

Ron Cecchini (Cecchi...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:
: Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness",
: "gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc.
: So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant,
: self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?

Yes, now run along and play on the freeway.

: Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?


: It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you,
: judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some
: incidents that occurred at your school.

Odd, isn't it? People making generalizations based on their own
experiences.

: Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?

If it takes you 4 days to calculate your Goth Code...

: I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the


: ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone-
: induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss
: is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging
: along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare
: anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while
: I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death
: with my one free hand...

Really? Is that a membership requirement of the gym you belong to?


<> ben colborn <> colb...@uidaho.edu <>

Goth Code 2.0: GoHu+TW$CS$ TMJtYyuIn B6/35Bk!]2^2 cBKw--L PSaMoPr(Pa) V-s
M- ZGoGnInCl C++P3u a21+ n-- b:-- H178 g+T mEa3Ni3G1-3 w+T r+3 D-- h-- s9
k++BW RnSsWw N0893Pnw LusID- HfsS

Ron Cecchini

unread,
Oct 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/28/96
to

In Twilight <lucr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> The northern 'rednecks' probably differ from the southern 'rednecks',
> you're right in that. I've seen enough racism down here to last three
> lifetimes. I wanted to go to a dance in HS with a african american friend
> of mine, and my father wouldn't let me. Merely because he was black.

Well, that's unfortunate that such attitudes exist in your very family.
Hell, even my grandparents (very old world-style Italians) have told my sister
that she shouild marry within her "own". I'll spare you the rant that I
(in a moment of disrespect) unleashed upon my grandmother.

> > Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant.
> do you?

I *am* stubborn, and it does take alot to convince me that I'm wrong,
but to answer your question: yes.
I will admit when I'm wrong, or when I don't know.
But I admit to usually having an opinion of some sort on a given subject -
even if it's not a well-researched opinion.

> I am to people I don't like.... especially when they try to say I'm a
> ohsogoth wannabe

The reason for that implication was (besides being pretty pissed off at that
moment in time) because of the glaring contradiction between your attitude and
(what I *thought*) was the Goth attitude/mentality/belief/philosophy of
tolerance, open-mindedness and acceptance.

> > Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?
>
> I'll tell you what I know. Wait, I did. You ignored my answer.

Ahh! You mention this twice...
Apparently my oh-so-flaky server didn't get your reply (and I thought it was
actually behaving recently...) Or maybe I somehow overlooked it.
Since I've been replying to every other response in this thread, obviously
I'm not ducking your questions. So go ahead and resend/post it (public or
private - I don't care), and I'll respond.

> *some* incidents??? Boy, you just don't know, do you? I've had friends
> come crying to me because some frat boy tried to rape them at a party.

...


> and still, you assume we're making generalizations???

Sure you are.

If you really believe that *all* fraternity/sorority members behave
exactly alike, then you *are* making a generalization.
Moreover, let me ask: has every act of intolerance/prejudice you've
experienced come from a member of the Greek system?
I admit to having a *real* hard time believing that...

See, you gotta realize that, having been in a fraternity (as well as some
other sub/coutnercultures), I feel a kindred spirit of sorts to any
group/subculture/etc that gets maligned because of the actions of *some*
of it's
members. Sure, fraternities are infinitely more "mainstream" than, say, the
Goth sub/counterculture. But don't think for *minute* that I/we didn't suffer
from incessant and excessive prejudices from not only the media, the community,
but even our campus at times.

People tend to focus only on the negative.
That's what sticks in their heads.
They forget all the positive and good things.
That's fact.

And what's fact is that my fraternity, and the whole Greek system, did
more for the campus and community, raised more money for local charities,
put on
more benefits, provided more Big Brother and tutoring services, etc. - than any
single group of FISH (our word for "independents") on campus.
[ and we consistently exceeded the All Men's average. Thhhhbt! ]

...

BTW, regarding the rape thing, *I've* had some friends (both fraternal and
independent) who's reps were seriously damaged by drunk women claiming date
rape and who, both in campus hearings and courts of law, were fully
exhonerated off all the charges brought against them by the women.

So excuse me if I'm touchy on *that* subject.
Rape is rape.
And any every rapist should have his johnson lopped off with a dull spoon.
But I have seen *first* *hand* how a false accusation can almost ruin someone.
So, while your friends may have truly almost been raped, I feel like I have to
throw my 2 cents in when you bring rape into a discussion about fraternities.

> > Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people
> > in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of
> > beer drinking and chasing women, right?
>
> of course not. Those are the 'wannabe' frat boys.

Alright Twilight...
Now I'm not sure if you're just tryin' to yank my chain, piss me off, or
if you really believe that...
[ I suspect the former ]

'cause I hardly think that:
1) *no* Goth likes to drink
(that's obviously false)
2) *no* (male) Goth likes women
(that's probably less obvious than #1, but still obviously false)

> > I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after
> > Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths),
dressed
> > in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black
> > combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...
>
> why? because they looked different than you?

Um, yes. I think I pretty much stated than in my initial post.
I said I *used* to judge them by the way they looked - but that I don't
do it anymore.

[ BTW, I tried the Velvet Elvis for the first time this Friday night.
If you haven't tried it: do it! Mmmm... peanut butter... ]

> > So why am I here,

...


> I sit here, asking myself the same question

I think I answered that one, Twilight honey.

We all pretty much have alot of the same interests.
But we don't all have to agree with every single other person in the group.

Just as, while many member of a fraternity or sorority will have common
interests and goals, not every member agrees with (or even *likes*) every
other member. Nor does every member necessarily agree with or condone the
activities of every other member.

> don't. but don't mock me for my beliefs.

Well, I did't think I was mocking - just pointing out what I perceived to
be a contradiction.

> If I stereotyped frat boys, then I *must* have a reason for it.

And maybe some frat boy's mom got bitten by a vampire 'causing him much
mental anguish and despair and thus motivating him to spend and devote the
entire rest of his godforsaken life to eradicating the undead from the face of
this planet and persecuting all those who give the appearance of sympathizing
with said creatures of the night with their acrylic fangs black capes and
makeup
mm t-shirts and crow posters...

See my point?
I'm not berating you for making a generalization.
We *ALL* do it.
But just as I would like someone to educate me when I'm speaking from my ass,
I find it necessary to educate those that are doing likewise.

> Every one I've encountered is that way, and I've encountered a *lot*.

Just use your head and realize that whatever prejudices you may be facing
cannot be blamed solely on the Greek system or described as being a purely
Greek phenomenon.

> And I know this wasn't a followup to anything I said, but since you
> didn't answer what I *did* respond with, I figured I'd put my two cents
> in for this one.

No prob.
Post (or email - if you don't want to continue this on-line) your
original response and I'll respond.

...

Thinking about changing my .sig to:

"Gem][ni - The Bipolar Wonder of the Modern World" or
"Gem][ni - 'cause 2 heads are better than one!"

[ hmmm... I think I like that... ]

Later

[ I have a certain poster I have to throw out before I get a stake put
through my heart... ]

the Albatross

unread,
Oct 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/29/96
to

Ron Cecchini wrote:


> the glaring contradiction between your attitude and
> (what I *thought*) was the Goth attitude/mentality/belief/philosophy
> of tolerance, open-mindedness and acceptance.

<laugh>
Um, no, those were the hippies.
They're in hiding now; they're pumpin out books about
rainbows and the global brain.

A
++++++++++++++++++++
He was a good boy, he was a nice boy, he was a shy boy,
and it made him bitter.
-Hemingway, from The Sun Also Rises
tpa...@fix.net

klaatu

unread,
Oct 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/30/96