society wants.. <fill in blank>
TheKumar
<caff...@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> zentariana wrote:
> > <snip>
> > so.
> > what -does- society want?
> >
snip
> What does society want? I think society wants and
> needs a fringe element. It
> helps progress it. But it can't be a fringe, if
> everyone finds it "warm and
> fuzzy".
I dont think that society "wants and needs" a fringe element
the way I want and need a new pair of socks. A 'fringe' is
just a natural occurance in any set as complicated as human
group behavior and definitions of 'normal'. So if you mean
'society wants a fringe element the way a waveform wants
troughs', you are very correct.
> snip the rest
> Caff
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
zentariana
we couldn't tell the difference between inside and outside.. and i was
thinking about a trisha yearwood song, "Real Live Woman" (which i
love) and there's a part where she says "i don't fit the mold society
has planned." so, i paused in my sweeping and scoffed. i mean. a nice,
country singer seems pretty straight, y'know? what else would society
want.
then i swept.
then i paused.
then i kept sweeping so i could get it done - but you really don't
care about my sweeping.
anyway.
she might be right. she might not be what society wants. though i'm
glad she's there, 'cause i like her music.
so i was thinking about what society wants. and i'm not sure.
the best i could come up with is that they want comsumers.. and to get
that they want us to be insecure.
if you're insecure you'll buy more products, join support groups,
blahblahblah..
but on this train of thought, the whole "society hates me because i'm
Different <tm>" thing wouldn't work out so well, unless your
difference was that you were comfy with yourself and didn't care to
buy lots of products or join support groups or gyms.
then again, society would want a -few- of these people so that the
true blue consumer would either have someone to look down upon, "boy,
i look better than -that-" and buy more glitter to prove it. or to
have someone to look up to so that they go buy more grungy looking
things to look like them.
so.
what -does- society want?
icq: 36328663
aim: Zentarian
"uncertainty, in the presence of vivid hopes and fears, is painful,
but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting
fairy tales"
-bertrand russel-
Caffeine
zentariana wrote:
> <snip>
> so.
> what -does- society want?
>
I was going to quote Leonard Cohen ("a box of choc....") but since it was
already mentioned on another thread (somewhere along the "If I were a
Candy..." discussion. If you missed it, go look it up. If you care. :^P ).
What does society want? I think society wants and needs a fringe element. It
helps progress it. But it can't be a fringe, if everyone finds it "warm and
fuzzy".
Notice how many famous people, revolutions of science and culture have come
from the fringe. Alan Ginsberg, Andy Worhol, William S. Bourroughs, the
computer geeks of the 60's, 70's & 80's (yep, almost all of them), Pink
Floyd, and I could just go on.
Just the other day I saw a "pure punk pure hardcore" T-shirt on the back of
this teenager and nearly laughed my ass off. No self respecting punk from my
era (1986+) would wear a shirt like that. And I'm sure the punks from '78-85
would laugh their asses off at me during that time.
So the freaks that don't fit in, inspire music, art, and fashion (remember
the big plaid wearing onset 1991 on. The video "1992 - The Year Punk Broke",
Kurt Cobain et al. stoned out of their skulls rolling about laughing during
an interview on Much Music (Canada's answer to Much Music)). Christ, just
look at all the body piercing places these days...
Perhaps society cultivates the fringe culture, to later mostly assimilate it
into mainstream. But to keep things from stagnating it must constantly have
a new fringe culture.
Ooh, that took too much thought.
I think another glass of wine is in order.
Caff
zentariana
<caff...@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Perhaps society cultivates the fringe culture, to later mostly assimilate it
>into mainstream. But to keep things from stagnating it must constantly have
>a new fringe culture.
i also find myself wandering a lot about what -is- the fringe culture
right now?
it's just so very hip to be altie right now.
i decided a bit ago that now the only fringe culture is the straight
laced prep tight because they're just so rare. (straight laced being
the emphasized point)
i think the "all american" preppy teen now causes more trouble than
any other group. from my experience, anyway.
>Ooh, that took too much thought.
>I think another glass of wine is in order.
share!
Sciamachy
news:3965220a....@nntp.mindspring.com...
> so.
> what -does- society want?
Have a read of "The Society of the Spectacle" by Guy Debord, for one of the
most damning critiques of modern society. It was written in the 1960's but
holds even more true today than it did then, even after the author's suicide
om 1986. Have a look at http://www.nothingness.org for more details. It's
spookily close to what you were saying about society merely wanting
consumers. Very frightening stuff, like waking up from the Matrix to find
you've been living in a machine that just lies to you in order to use you as
its power cells - only this one's real.
Matt
Tiny Human Ferret
<trim>
>
> so.
> what -does- society want?
Society wants utter conformity masquerading as diversity, and the only true
sin is to look like everyone else but secretly think for yourself... and to
have foremost among your thoughts an awareness of what society really wants,
and secondmost, your disapproval.
"I have sworn... eternal enmity against
all forms of tyranny over the mind of Man."
-- Thomas Jefferson
--
"You can take a small town and put it in the 21st Century,
and all that changes is that the rednecks have Palm Pilots."
-- Thomas Hardman
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:46:01 GMT, Caffeine
> <caff...@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps society cultivates the fringe culture, to later mostly assimilate it
> >into mainstream. But to keep things from stagnating it must constantly have
> >a new fringe culture.
>
> i also find myself wandering a lot about what -is- the fringe culture
> right now?
>
> it's just so very hip to be altie right now.
> i decided a bit ago that now the only fringe culture is the straight
> laced prep tight because they're just so rare. (straight laced being
> the emphasized point)
> i think the "all american" preppy teen now causes more trouble than
> any other group. from my experience, anyway.
You want the _real_ fringe? http://www.foresight.org/ or for that matter
http://earthops.org/nanotech.html -- see also http://earthops.org/space.html
not to mention http://earthops.org/weirdness.html
Actually, see all of the links from all of those pages, I think that about
covers it. Ah, one more... http://earthops.org/cult/
BiancaBlack
<caff...@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote:
<snipitty snip>
>an interview on Much Music (Canada's answer to Much Music))
I think you meant: Much Music (Canada's answer to MTV) :-)
>Perhaps society cultivates the fringe culture, to later mostly assimilate it
>into mainstream. But to keep things from stagnating it must constantly have
>a new fringe culture.
>Ooh, that took too much thought.
>I think another glass of wine is in order.
Yep! I'll drink to that! He hehe! :-)
BiancaBlack
http://www.geocities.com/blackbianca
Mare
>so i was thinking about what society wants. and i'm not sure.
>the best i could come up with is that they want comsumers.
I believe capitalist society wants consumers- but I think society as- society-
i.e people grouped together- want safety and security more than anything.
If you use Germany as an example-not all the former comunists who've been
thrown into capitalist society find it a better system. Some feel the
capitalist society is too *stuff* oriented, as it is, that people judge and are
judged by the stuff they have. Some dont like this. Others dont like the lack
of a Communist safety net-
Capitalist culture, on the other hand, while fine with the stuff aspect- or so
they'd have us believe- also has the safety issues. Without discussing
political issues- we'll stick to "freaks". Real "freaks"- not the "I'm so
depressed because they made fun of my nose ring as school" freaks- but genuine
"threats" to society. i.e homosexuals out to "corrupt our youth", political
disenters, conspiracy theorists,(VEGETARIANS! GASP!) the ACLU, - the fringe-
be it right or left. Slammed by the media on a regular basis. A risk to the
stability of the status quo. Boat rockers. Society doesnt like em.
Mare
Special Effects Hair Dye, Gothic Clothing, Cosmetics, More.
http://www.goodgoth.com
Gru the GothCop
zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
>so.
>what -does- society want?
Comforting normality.
For real.
Most people are frightened by what they don't
understand.
So they want things all nice and normal and predictable
and not-frightening.
Charles (aka: the Gruamach) http://home.stlnet.com/~gothcop
alt.gothic's own Garibaldi,Daddygoff and Jedi Footrubmaster
"We commit indiscrestions, and omit our sins from sight.
In a world of intangibles, so many things seem right."
zentariana
GothCop) wrote:
>On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:29:33 GMT,
>zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
>
>
>>so.
>>what -does- society want?
>
>Comforting normality.
>
>
>For real.
>Most people are frightened by what they don't
>understand.
>So they want things all nice and normal and predictable
>and not-frightening.
and yet the love the movies..
Caffeine
BiancaBlack wrote:
>
> >an interview on Much Music (Canada's answer to Much Music))
>
> I think you meant: Much Music (Canada's answer to MTV) :-)
>
You are right. That's what I meant to say. er... I blame it on the
commies... red wine... not me.... er. yeah. so? ah. It wasn't my fault.
Aliens invaded my brain via a rectal probe and forced me to make that
mistake. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.
Caff.
kest
zentariana wrote:
> so i was thinking about what society wants. and i'm not sure.
Society....it's a big thing. I was thinking on my travels, as I went
from hippieville north to yuppieville south, how utterly _futile_ it is
to pretend we're all the same. We're "American" - what the fuck does
that mean? Hell, even 'Californian' doesn't mean much (although
'Washingtonian' almost does).
But we try to pretend anyway, so we can have some sort of meaningful
discourse. We shop at the same grocery stores, eat the same fast food,
listen to the same trite music. We claim our differences as
'individuality' to enable us to deal with them. ANd meanwhile
individuals make good workers. They get ahead. They don't need (or even
expect) the system to care about them.
> the best i could come up with is that they want comsumers.. and to get
> that they want us to be insecure.
> if you're insecure you'll buy more products, join support groups,
> blahblahblah..
>
Yes. Definitely. I took a class last year on the history of consumer
culture - fascinating and yet terrifying stuff.
> then again, society would want a -few- of these people so that the
> true blue consumer would either have someone to look down upon, "boy,
> i look better than -that-" and buy more glitter to prove it. or to
There's a whole division of sociology that does nothing but analyze
deviance. See, every society has to have some weirdos so that the rest
can see where the lines are. If you live in a place that has never
heard of child molestation or murder, then you're more likely to be put
to death for having sex before marriage or something like that.
Because all society wants, really, is its own survival. It wants us to
get along. And if that means ostracizing some so that the rest are more
comfortable, then that's what has to be done. But our huge overburdened
interconnected world is challenging that. We've got that whole
'individuality' thing. Which makes for people who don't really know who
they are, or think they're specialler than everybody else, or can't
really connect with others on a deep level, but everybody at least has a
place. (Whether or not this is a change for the better is something I
change my opinion on daily.)
HTH,
k
Caffeine
zentariana wrote:
>
> On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:13:02 GMT, gothcoph...@stlnet.com (Gru the
> GothCop) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:29:33 GMT,
> >zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
> >
> >
> >>so.
> >>what -does- society want?
> >
> >Comforting normality.
> >
> >
> >For real.
> >Most people are frightened by what they don't
> >understand.
> >So they want things all nice and normal and predictable
> >and not-frightening.
>
> and yet the love the movies..
>
Okay. Austiere thought. Okay people are saying that society wants
"comforting normalacy". Perhaps, society (without knowing) is like an
animal kingdom with darwinism. Take the scale up a bit. Instead of
dealing with small communities, were certain genetic traits may dominate
and you get a whole populate supceptable to a disease (think native
americans and small pox), but culturally, society might need
diversification as well, otherwise it becomes even more stagnant.
I believe (and this is only a belief) that society needs the dreamers,
and the fringe in order to keep from stagnating. Mainstream society
assimilates what is being done on the fringe and promotes it. What is
created on the fringe, through osmosis becomes "normalacy" often enough.
Perhaps I believe all this because I know I get bored easily without
changed. Heck, I get depressed and suicidal without change. So all this
conjecture is broadly based on my own opinion and may have no real
impact on the real world.
GAK.
I am thinking too hard. Need beer. Need to kill a few brain cells
dancing. yep. where's the beer.... Oh here it is!!!!!
Caff
Twilight
> what -does- society want?
Conformity.
Whips and Kisses---
Amy, who's gotten in the censorship/Harry Potter/Big Brother discussion so
many times this week it's scary
--
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
"Something caught on fire somewhere, and
the poems started to burn. . . . Before he
touched the floor, he was wished upon." - AWR
http://www.gothic.net/~Medakse
zentariana
wrote:
>"zentariana" <zenta...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3965220a....@nntp.mindspring.com...
>> so.
>> what -does- society want?
>
>Conformity.
>Whips and Kisses---
>Amy, who's gotten in the censorship/Harry Potter/Big Brother discussion so
>many times this week it's scary
isn't it weird how that happens?
it's like all our minds are the same and everyone is talking about the
same thing all the time.
freaks me out.
Hypezokos Devilgrrl
> what -does- society want?
Who really knows? Society as a whole changes it's mindset like it's
underware. But as for what it needs? When I figure out how to perform mass
cranial enemas ......
Hype the Evil Doctor
********************************
ICQ: 57346120
Glenn Olson
>so i was thinking about what society wants. and i'm not sure.
>the best i could come up with is that they want comsumers.. and to get
>that they want us to be insecure.
>if you're insecure you'll buy more products, join support groups,
>blahblahblah..
>
>but on this train of thought, the whole "society hates me because i'm
>Different <tm>" thing wouldn't work out so well, unless your
>difference was that you were comfy with yourself and didn't care to
>buy lots of products or join support groups or gyms.
Or if it was the line of propoganda society feeds you, to keep you
insecure...
"Of course I hate you. Buy this and maybe I'll hate you less."
>so.
>what -does- society want?
Nothing that I care to worry about.
Edward Scissorhands
Twilight <med...@earthlink.net> writes
>> what -does- society want?
>
>Whips and Kisses---
Yep, conformity, whips and kisses are pretty high on my lists, too :)
EdwardS
--
Edward Scissorhands |\ _,,,---,,_
Retro, notgoth, weird, AGF-Borg - 0 of Goth /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
E-Mail: EdwardS<at>lovecraft.demon.co.uk |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'::.
Homepage: http://www.lovecraft.demon.co.uk/ '----''(_/--' `-'\_)Morticia
Androgyny Masquerade
> "zentariana"
> > so.
> > what -does- society want?
>
> Conformity.
Right. It's times like these that I remember why I hang out here. I
just happened to start reading threads before I posted what this whole
mess is gonna be.
You want to know what society wants? Watch Starz, HBO, or fucking
Cinamax. I just did. I feel bloody dirty now. Movies like She's All
That or 12 Things I Hate About You. I've seen them both. They both
say it, conform, be popular, be something that everyone else will like.
And it hit me as I was enraptured by She's All That. Those movies
are really good about making you want those things to. I caught myself
sympathizing with the main character when she said "I would never let
them see me cry." As she's crying outside of a party. Fuck.
And I caught myself, sitting in a pair of camo pants and shredded but
comfy t-shirt, with a bald fucking head, piercings and tattoos,
sniffling and wanting that with some fiber of my being. The popular
person sweeping into my life, ulterior motives or not, and being
elevated to the status of "okay" if not "Popluar."
There was longing realizing that I won't ever go to prom, or watch
someone I can't stand because they are shallow and self-centered being
crowned Queen of a fucking dance. Society promotes these things, they
encourage being part of the flock. And part of me wants to be there,
wants it to be all okay.
Maybe I'm just tired of doing what I want to do. I'm mostly okay,
then these fucking issues with self-esteem come flairing up and I
wonder if I do these things only because I'm not good enough to be one
of Them. Maybe it's to draw attention away from my Flaw, that Traegic
Oh So Shakespearean self that makes me unworthy. What's it like being
one of the People? One of the Crowd? I dunno. Most of me doesn't
care or want to know, but there is still that voice, the freshman who
dropped out three times, the geek with glasses, the artfag, the part
that's sick of the ridicule, being a curiosity, and the part thats just
tired who wants to know.
YOu want to know what Society wants? Fucked up, freaked out, pissed
off people who can be worn down to fit a mold.
> Whips and Kisses---
> Amy, who's gotten in the censorship/Harry Potter/Big Brother
discussion so
> many times this week it's scary
--
Spider's Androgyny Masquerade
"I accept submission/To the pleasures of the flesh/And the joy of pain/
Satisfy me satisfy/Live like kings and queens/" 'Kings and Queens'-
Killing Joke
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
zentariana
thank you.
that just made me sit down and think bad and nod and say 'yup, me too"
my cousins were able to do it.
one because she tried so fucking hard.. it killed me to watch her
try.. she joined -everything- just to make friends.. she was fat and
bratty and unpopular.. but she made it.
she's now beautiful, and sweet and popular.
my other cousin made it because shes just drop dead gorgeous. i hate
her. i dislike her and i never dislike anyone very strongly. she's the
most backstabbing, nasty, selfcentered... gah. anyway.
i could never do it, though. i always tried.
i went to these camps and the popular girls would go and i tried so
-fucking- hard.. and i cried -every- year because they were so awful
to me.
though, now when i look back and what i -wore-... *shudders*
it's a bit odd, i think.
you wanna fit in. you want to like the boy bands and calvin klein.
want to be able to lose yourself and relax and be brainless. (though i
DON'T wanna wear capri pants. hiss)
okay, i'm gonna quit writing now, my mind is just wondering and i
don't know if i'm making sense..
Gru the GothCop
zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
>On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:13:02 GMT, gothcoph...@stlnet.com (Gru the
>GothCop) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:29:33 GMT,
>>zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
>>
>>
>>>so.
>>>what -does- society want?
>>
>>Comforting normality.
>>
>>
>>For real.
>>Most people are frightened by what they don't
>>understand.
>>So they want things all nice and normal and predictable
>>and not-frightening.
>
>
>and yet the love the movies..
That's their outlet.
They can vent all the repressed feelings within
themselves, and "experience" all those unfamiliar/scary
things in total safety....all they have to do is get up
and leave.
Metamorph
> Twilight wrote:
> > zentariana wrote:
> >> what -does- society want?
> >Conformity.
> >Whips and Kisses---
Interesting theory... *grins*
> >Amy, who's gotten in the censorship/Harry Potter/Big Brother discussion so
> >many times this week it's scary
> isn't it weird how that happens?
> it's like all our minds are the same and everyone is talking about the
> same thing all the time.
> freaks me out.
I tend to think of it as the "Universal Consciousness" for lack of any
better term. When Buddha's teachings were reaching China and Japan,
Jesus' teachings were spreading through the west.
I sometimes wonder if they weren't the same person, with different
scribes interpreting for him/her.
Metamorph
--
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
Metamorph
> > what -does- society want?
> underware. But as for what it needs? When I figure out how to perform mass
> cranial enemas ......
If you are talking about Brain Washing, it's being done all the time.
YOU (all of us) have grown up with it.
Metamorph, that is why I'm a contrary person... *grins*
zentariana
GothCop) wrote:
>>and yet the love the movies..
>
>That's their outlet.
>They can vent all the repressed feelings within
>themselves, and "experience" all those unfamiliar/scary
>things in total safety....all they have to do is get up
>and leave.
i hate scary movies..
they're scary
why would you want to sit in a room and be scared?
i don't understand.
zentariana
>I tend to think of it as the "Universal Consciousness" for lack of any
>better term. When Buddha's teachings were reaching China and Japan,
>Jesus' teachings were spreading through the west.
>
>I sometimes wonder if they weren't the same person, with different
>scribes interpreting for him/her.
i wonder how it happens.
that's one of the -very- few things that makes me think about
religion.. like somehow we're all connected.. meaning we're not just a
body.
Metamorph
> Metamorph wrote:
> >I tend to think of it as the "Universal Consciousness" for lack of any
> >better term. When Buddha's teachings were reaching China and Japan,
> >Jesus' teachings were spreading through the west.
> >
> >I sometimes wonder if they weren't the same person, with different
> >scribes interpreting for him/her.
> i wonder how it happens.
> that's one of the -very- few things that makes me think about
> religion.. like somehow we're all connected.. meaning we're not just a
> body.
Don't call it religion for one thing. Think of it as your spiritual
nature. We are mind, body, and life force or spirit or which ever word
feels most comfortable to your understanding of your inner self.
Metamorph
zentariana
>Don't call it religion for one thing. Think of it as your spiritual
>nature. We are mind, body, and life force or spirit or which ever word
>feels most comfortable to your understanding of your inner self.
me and it are still kinda arguing too much to come to an understanding
;)
Thryn Holloweyes
Androgyny Masquerade wrote:
> Maybe I'm just tired of doing what I want to do. I'm mostly okay,
> then these fucking issues with self-esteem come flairing up and I
> wonder if I do these things only because I'm not good enough to be one
> of Them. Maybe it's to draw attention away from my Flaw, that Traegic
> Oh So Shakespearean self that makes me unworthy. What's it like being
> one of the People? One of the Crowd? I dunno. Most of me doesn't
> care or want to know, but there is still that voice, the freshman who
> dropped out three times, the geek with glasses, the artfag, the part
> that's sick of the ridicule, being a curiosity, and the part thats just
> tired who wants to know.
heh.
thinking about similar issues today myself...
about self-image, and why it is that i've thoroughly rejected so much of
what society likes, but images of what's attractive still fuck with me
so much? not the hair styles, or the clothing, but the facial
structure, and the body type, and the self-assurance that magazines want
to make you think comes with being that sort of "beautiful."
anyway. i already wrote this rant today. reprinted from
http://thryn.diaryland.com , we have the following....
-----------------------------------------------------------
self-image is one of Those Things, you know?
i'm a reasonably attractive person. i'm average height, on the thin side
of average build, my facial features are interesting and not unpleasant,
etc. so why on earth am i so perpetually dissatisfied with my
appearance?
objectively, i can tell myself that perky tits are not the norm, that my
nose really isn't *that* big, that everyone goes through a metabolism
shift in their early twenties, that too-skinny girls are often
unhealthy, and all sorts of other reasonable, logical things.
but objectivity flies right out the window nine times out of ten when i
catch my reflection in a mirror. i don't like my jawline. it's not
chiseled enough. my breasts are funny-looking and unattractive. my ass
is flabby. my stomach's lost its definition. i've gained 3 inches on my
waist in the past year, and it shows. my nose is too big for my face. my
eyes are too deep-set. my cheekbones aren't prominent enough. my lower
body's too big for my upper body.
i don't look like the girls in magazines. i don't look like gorgeous
friend x. i don't look like my beautiful roomate.
i don't look like my sister.
silly thing to judge myself on, but at the root of it all, there it is.
my sister is beautiful. she can pull off any look she wants, and well.
she's got a 20's movie star face, she's tiny, and gorgeous, and i want
to be her.
or at least look like her.
funny, societal ideals almost entirely pass me by. i don't like the
music that's popular, i don't like most popular television shows, many
blockbuster movies just make me roll my eyes in disgust. most clothing
trends strike me as ridiculous, and i'm not particularly driven by the
desire to have more money than everyone who surrounds me.
but the media saturation of what's "beautiful" in a human has
irrevocably warped me into hating what i look like. to the point that i
often think about cutting myself again--because if i can't be beautiful,
at least i can have interesting scars. to the point that i feel
completely undesirable, even in front of a person who moved a thousand
miles to be with me.
to the point that every little flaw i can find with myself magnifies
itself in my brain until i see it as having a neon fucking sign pointing
to it with a big red flashing arrow.
** SPIDER VEINS! ** *flash* *flash* ** CELLULITE! ** *flash*
and no matter what anybody says, i can't accept the fact that my flaws
don't make the entire package completely fucking disgusting.
and then there are those moments when i catch my reflection and think
"damn, i look good."
but they are few.
and far between.
next time around, i just want to be somebody's pet cat. they've got the
ultimate lives...
--
mrowr, /\ /\ *
-kat- ((
AIM - eimi ouden __ O O- \ ))
(ooo\ \ / \ //
``` = v_===\
bluesilence
mean, look at the way we deine our lives- we remember pain much
more feircly than happiness. We define ourselves through being
unique- esp. the 'freaks' and yet there's always the bumper
sticker on the back of my car that says "Always remeber you're
unique. Just like everyone else." Society wants a place where
they don't have to think too much, IMHO. If everyone acts like
sheep, then maybe there won't be as many wolves.... I dunno.
It just seems like conformity is a way of halting the thought
process. We conform out of need to fit in, and when you fit in
with a group, you don't have to worry too much cos hell, there's
all these people backing you up. The 'fringe' of society
isthere to keep the normals in line, i think, but yet we are
still conforming in small ways. Look at the way Goths are
catagorized- wear black, lots o makeup, depressed. and what do
most Goths wear? I'm not saying it's neccisarily a bad thing,
bt it's there. we all conform to being a pat of th majority or
the minority. and some confine themselves to those perimeters.
society NEEDS to be less judgemental, but everyone wants a
verdict in this soap opra life, so that's not looking likely.
later days,
blue jay
~~~"We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at
stars." - O.W. ~~~
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
zentariana
<adancewiththe...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>still conforming in small ways. Look at the way Goths are
>catagorized- wear black, lots o makeup, depressed. and what do
>most Goths wear? I'm not saying it's neccisarily a bad thing,
>bt it's there. we all conform to being a pat of th majority or
>the minority.
i noticed that at convergence..
on day one i was wearing blue and red..
and i was like
"tomorrow! tomorrow i shall wear black!! i will fit in!!"
it was funny ;)
Awkwardly Aside
> objectively, i can tell myself that perky tits are not the norm, that
> my nose really isn't *that* big, that everyone goes through a
metabolism
> shift in their early twenties, that too-skinny girls are often
> unhealthy, and all sorts of other reasonable, logical things.
>
> but objectivity flies right out the window nine times out of ten when
> i catch my reflection in a mirror.
:: nods ::
I keep telling myself that perfect, beautiful, model-type people are
abnormal... but I see them everywhere. Somehow it always comes back to
me being the freak...
~ awkwardly alone
Kris
>i noticed that at convergence..
>on day one i was wearing blue and red..
>and i was like
>"tomorrow! tomorrow i shall wear black!! i will fit in!!"
>it was funny ;)
See now, I noticed it.. and went.. fuck.. did I even *bring* anything black? :P
I had to do some serious digging to come up with something that wasn't blue in
my luggage. I bought baby blue vinyl gardening gloves the other day even.
Notagoth. :)
~Kris .. is bl00. :)
"Maybe you gotta feel lousy sometime, in order to feel better. A little
advice, kiddo, about feeling. Don't think too much about it. And don't expect
it to always tickle." - Berger, "Ordinary People" - Judith Guest.
kest
zentariana wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2000 19:45:36 GMT, Androgyny Masquerade
> <gyspy...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > You want to know what society wants? Watch Starz, HBO, or fucking
> >Cinamax. I just did. I feel bloody dirty now. Movies like She's All
> >That or 12 Things I Hate About You. I've seen them both. They both
> >say it, conform, be popular, be something that everyone else will like.
You're watching the wrong movies, that's all. Try, mm, fight club.
office space. the matrix. couple other recent ones I'm not thinking of
right off the top of my head. If half the movies say conform, the other
half say rebel.
> you wanna fit in. you want to like the boy bands and calvin klein.
"Is _that_ what a man looks like?" -fight club
You know all those conforming popular people? Half of them are wishing
they could be like you. Feeling free enough to be whatever you want to
be. I think there's real power in that.
Me, I'm just a chameleon.
k
Delight
Androgyny Masquerade <gyspy...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Society promotes these things, they
> encourage being part of the flock. And part of me wants to be there,
> wants it to be all okay.
Well said! And in a very scary way I, too, want to be there. Not
all of me, no, but sometimes, I catch myself wondering what it
would be like to have a "normal" life, with "normal" problems.
What would it be like to buy pastel clothes...well, not pastel,
let's not get carried away. What would it be like to actually
belong _somewhere_, or do the "normal" people, the flock, belong?
Or do they look at "us" (a very generic "us" here) and wish
they could be like us? When I was younger (so much younger than
today...), I wanted to be a goth. I admired them, they were so
pretty and I was so shy and frightened. I didn't belong to a
popular group then, I was just a geek. And now, part of me _still_
wants to be a preppy, popular girl. A very small part, I admit,
but it's there.
<snip>
> I'm mostly okay,
> then these fucking issues with self-esteem come flairing up and I
> wonder if I do these things only because I'm not good enough to be one
> of Them.
Yup, that's it. I'm not good enough. That's how I feel. But then
again, I very often feel I'm not good enough to be part of the
goth-culture either. I'm simply not good enough. I realize this
is a problem.
Delight, not accepted by society! Just ask my boss! :(
--
**************************************************
lady_d...@my-deja.com
"the sea is a princess who had a dance very
unusual. The alien is an alien." N.Gaiman
Androgyny Masquerade
> zentariana wrote:
> > Androgyny Masquerade wrote:
> > > You want to know what society wants? Watch Starz, HBO, or
fucking
> > >Cinamax. I just did. I feel bloody dirty now. Movies like She's
All
both
> > >say it, conform, be popular, be something that everyone else will
like.
>
> You're watching the wrong movies, that's all. Try, mm, fight club.
> office space. the matrix. couple other recent ones I'm not thinking of
> right off the top of my head. If half the movies say conform, the
other
> half say rebel.
Didn't like office space, have no urge to see Fight Club, and the
Matrix was a cool flick. ::shrug;: Not something I'm gonna take cue
from.
Most of the time I can just watch a movie for entertainment. 10
Things I Hate About You fucking rocked. It was funny and neat. But
sometimes... sometimes the voices come back and start mocking and
questioning. That's my problem.
> > you wanna fit in. you want to like the boy bands and calvin klein.
>
> "Is _that_ what a man looks like?" -fight club
>
> You know all those conforming popular people? Half of them are wishing
> they could be like you. Feeling free enough to be whatever you want to
> be. I think there's real power in that.
Show it to me. Make me understand that emotionally where the problem
is, not intellectually where I know I'm not a total fucktard, where I
know that I'm at least mildly good looking and won't scare a horse.
_That's_ the problem.
> Me, I'm just a chameleon.
Even chameleons have to fit in.
> k
>
--
Spider's Androgyny Masquerade
"I accept submission/To the pleasures of the flesh/And the joy of pain/
Satisfy me satisfy/Live like kings and queens/" 'Kings and Queens'-
Killing Joke
Androgyny Masquerade
> > then these fucking issues with self-esteem come flairing up and I
> > wonder if I do these things only because I'm not good enough to be
one
Traegic
> > Oh So Shakespearean self that makes me unworthy. What's it like
being
> > one of the People? One of the Crowd? I dunno. Most of me doesn't
> > care or want to know, but there is still that voice, the freshman
who
> > dropped out three times, the geek with glasses, the artfag, the part
> > that's sick of the ridicule, being a curiosity, and the part thats
just
> > tired who wants to know.
>
> heh.
>
> thinking about similar issues today myself...
Great minds think alike.
> about self-image, and why it is that i've thoroughly rejected so much
of
> what society likes, but images of what's attractive still fuck with me
> so much? not the hair styles, or the clothing, but the facial
> structure, and the body type, and the self-assurance that magazines
want
> to make you think comes with being that sort of "beautiful."
Amen.
> anyway. i already wrote this rant today. reprinted from
> http://thryn.diaryland.com , we have the following....
Ah! A pre-packaged rant. :)
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> self-image is one of Those Things, you know?
>
> i'm a reasonably attractive person. i'm average height, on the thin
side
> of average build, my facial features are interesting and not
unpleasant,
> etc. so why on earth am i so perpetually dissatisfied with my
> appearance?
*twitch* That's almost exactly the way I phrased the first part of my
rant before I scrapped that and revised.
> objectively, i can tell myself that perky tits are not the norm, that
my
> nose really isn't *that* big, that everyone goes through a metabolism
> shift in their early twenties, that too-skinny girls are often
> unhealthy, and all sorts of other reasonable, logical things.
<grrr> I refuse to belive in a metabolism shift. It's in my
maternal genes not to have one.
> but objectivity flies right out the window nine times out of ten when
i
> catch my reflection in a mirror.
You too? Mirrors should be banned. I simply cannot look in the
mirror and accept that I'm attractive. I'm not a troll, I'm just not
all that far from bloody homey in my mind.
> and no matter what anybody says, i can't accept the fact that my flaws
> don't make the entire package completely fucking disgusting.
>
> and then there are those moments when i catch my reflection and think
> "damn, i look good."
>
> but they are few.
>
> and far between.
And easily destroyed or forgotten.
> next time around, i just want to be somebody's pet cat. they've got
the
> ultimate lives...
I'm not good enought for that either.
> --
> mrowr,
> -kat-
Gru the GothCop
zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) mumbled:
>On Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:41:31 GMT, gothcoph...@stlnet.com (Gru the
>GothCop) wrote:
>
>>>and yet the love the movies..
>>
>>That's their outlet.
>>They can vent all the repressed feelings within
>>themselves, and "experience" all those unfamiliar/scary
>>things in total safety....all they have to do is get up
>>and leave.
>
>i hate scary movies..
>they're scary
>why would you want to sit in a room and be scared?
>i don't understand.
Because it's a "safe" way to be scared.
They know, going into the movie, that no matter how
scared they get, it'll all be over in a couple of
hours, and then they can go on about their nice,
comfortably normal lives.
Mark Greene
To keep everyone guessing, to keep everyone coming back and asking "now
what?", to simply keep wanting more.
--
gothae subnoto baritus
zentariana
wrote:
>In article <3965220a....@nntp.mindspring.com>,
> zenta...@hotmail.com (zentariana) wrote:
>> so.
>> what -does- society want?
>
>To keep everyone guessing, to keep everyone coming back and asking "now
>what?", to simply keep wanting more.
well, they're certainly getting that.
Thryn Holloweyes
Androgyny Masquerade wrote:
> Great minds think alike.
awwww.... <blushes> spider just compared me to her!
> Ah! A pre-packaged rant. :)
easier than re-ranting, especially in something like that, which takes
so damned much emotional energy outa me. 'sides, that way the people who
are *really* bored can read my other pointless exhibitionist ramblings.
> *twitch* That's almost exactly the way I phrased the first part of my
> rant before I scrapped that and revised.
well, an old friend of mine who knows you (if you're the same spider
anyway, and i think you are) wrote me when he met you telling me he'd
met my long-lost twin, so....
> <grrr> I refuse to belive in a metabolism shift. It's in my
> maternal genes not to have one.
hmph. :P mine, too--but i didn't *get* my maternal genes, oh NOOOOOO!
my seester got to look like my mom's side of the family--and they're all
beautiful... i look like my dad's side. and they're all... interesting
looking. heh. and my dad's side has a definite metabolism shift-trend.
i'll be lucky if i'm not four times my current size from the waist down
by the time 'm 50. some of his aunts give "pear-shaped" a new meaning.
> You too? Mirrors should be banned. I simply cannot look in the
> mirror and accept that I'm attractive. I'm not a troll, I'm just not
alright, i'm gonna have to go hunt down a picture of you now...
<hunt... hunt...>
<gives up>
well, i can't comment, since i have no idea what you look like. but i
know you're fuzzy-headed, and fuzzy-headed chyx are sxxy.
> all that far from bloody homey in my mind.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
oh, great. now i have a mental image of a brotha' fromt he 'hood all
shot-up and dead on the street.
you meant homely, di'n ya?
> > next time around, i just want to be somebody's pet cat. they've got
> the
> > ultimate lives...
>
> I'm not good enought for that either.
i sincerely doubt that, love. i read your posts. you seem to be rather
spiify, akshly. wanna come join my menagerie? ;)
in a better mood for the moment,
Thryn Holloweyes
Delight wrote:
> <snip>
> > I'm mostly okay,
> > then these fucking issues with self-esteem come flairing up and I
> > wonder if I do these things only because I'm not good enough to be one
> > of Them.
>
> Yup, that's it. I'm not good enough. That's how I feel. But then
> again, I very often feel I'm not good enough to be part of the
> goth-culture either. I'm simply not good enough. I realize this
> is a problem.
and here's another variation of my rant. i have no residual desire to
be "one of the popular" crowd, really, i dont' want to wear their
clothes, or listen to their music, or whatever....
but i do want to be something.
and i really dont' fall into any classification terribly well. and that
may not be the problem, but it's part of it. i feel like no matter what
i'm wearing, no matter what the look of the evening is, i dont' *Really*
pull it off.
i guess, in a large way, i feel like time is passing me by, i'm getting
older (though i'm still a young'un), and i still have no direction. and
compounded with having no direction is this weird sense of having no
identity (though objectively i realize i've got a fuckuvalot more
identity than my chronological counterparts who dance at club thump and
listen to the inane shlock that the top 40 radio stations and major
record labels spoon-feed them).
<shrug> is there a mid-life crisis type thing that happens to people in
their early twenties? i think there is. i think i'm hitting it.
something to do with watching my contemporaries get married, find
careers, finish school, and me still wandering aimlessly....
Androgyny Masquerade
> Androgyny Masquerade wrote:
>
> > Great minds think alike.
>
> awwww.... <blushes> spider just compared me to her!
::blink:: Usually people hit me for putting them down on my level.
> > Ah! A pre-packaged rant. :)
>
> easier than re-ranting, especially in something like that, which takes
> so damned much emotional energy outa me. 'sides, that way the people
who
> are *really* bored can read my other pointless exhibitionist
ramblings.
<g> Exhibitionist Ramblings. I like that.
> > *twitch* That's almost exactly the way I phrased the first part
of my
> > rant before I scrapped that and revised.
>
> well, an old friend of mine who knows you (if you're the same spider
> anyway, and i think you are) wrote me when he met you telling me he'd
> met my long-lost twin, so....
Whom? Where are they and where do they know me from? Whatever they
told you may or may not be true? (Covering my ass there.)
> > <grrr> I refuse to belive in a metabolism shift. It's in my
> > maternal genes not to have one.
>
> hmph. :P mine, too--but i didn't *get* my maternal genes, oh NOOOOOO!
> my seester got to look like my mom's side of the family--and they're
all
> beautiful... i look like my dad's side. and they're all...
interesting
> looking. heh. and my dad's side has a definite metabolism shift-trend.
> i'll be lucky if i'm not four times my current size from the waist
down
> by the time 'm 50. some of his aunts give "pear-shaped" a new meaning.
There is no mistaking that I got my mothers genes. We look like
sisters. Except I'm 2 inches shorter than she is. And we weigh the
same, it's disgusting.
I hope my father and his side of the family burns in hell.
> > You too? Mirrors should be banned. I simply cannot look in the
> > mirror and accept that I'm attractive. I'm not a troll, I'm just
not
>
> alright, i'm gonna have to go hunt down a picture of you now...
>
> <hunt... hunt...>
>
> <gives up>
>
> well, i can't comment, since i have no idea what you look like. but i
> know you're fuzzy-headed, and fuzzy-headed chyx are sxxy.
<g> I try very hard to keep people from pictures of me. It's a
grand plan. ((No one, NO ONE is to help anyone find pictures mind
you!))
And I dunno about fuzzy being sexy, I'm just gonna go through the
various stages of the dyke hair cut.
> > all that far from bloody homey in my mind.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> oh, great. now i have a mental image of a brotha' fromt he 'hood all
> shot-up and dead on the street.
It's real, dog. The pigs got my bro, see muthafuckers just capped
his ass while he ran after they tried to jack his shit up. But I'm
smiling now, I can cry later. [1]
> you meant homely, di'n ya?
Erm, Yes. <g>
> > > next time around, i just want to be somebody's pet cat. they've
got
> > the
> > > ultimate lives...
> >
> > I'm not good enought for that either.
>
> i sincerely doubt that, love. i read your posts. you seem to be rather
> spiify, akshly. wanna come join my menagerie? ;)
<g> Sure.
See me and cats have an agreement, we both secretly believe that we
are superior to the other. The secret is, I know cats are right.
> in a better mood for the moment,
Good. Now, pass that my way. Or at least some sort of
upper. :;sigh:: work.
> --
>
> mrowr
> -kat-
>
--
Spider's Androgyny Masquerade
"I accept submission/To the pleasures of the flesh/And the joy of pain/
Satisfy me satisfy/Live like kings and queens/" 'Kings and Queens'-
Killing Joke
[1] I do not hold these views. even if I hav the Flava.
Panurge
>what -does- society want?
I'm not sure. But I think there are enough people in society who don't
want to be troubled by anything to make things difficult for the rest of
us, even if they're not a majority.
When it comes to conformism, there are those who seek actively to suppress
the Other, then there's the go-along-to-get-along crowd, then there are
the more independent-minded. The second crowd knows better than to cause
as much grief as they do, but then they don't have that much power--they
actually don't mind you being Other, but then comes the job interview when
they tell you the home office says your appearance isn't "professional"
enough.
"Society" doesn't want anything--only the individuals in it want
anything. But this is lost on the inordinately other-directed.
David Gerard
:<shrug> is there a mid-life crisis type thing that happens to people in
:their early twenties? i think there is. i think i'm hitting it.
Yes. There's a big one, though usually you'll have them every six months
from age twenty onwards.
--
http://xenu.netizen.com.au/ "Difficult's Greatest Hits (1957): It Made No
Sense!/I Don't Understand!/Why Does It Have to Be This Way?/Make it Harder!/
Who Knows?/You Act So Weird./We're Confused./Attack of Mr. Incomprehensible/
Superstition Boulevard/Paranoid Skeptic Drowning in Jello" (oonh)
Futile
>>what -does- society want?
Compliance and Assimilation.
Futile!
Futile
>Hypezokos Devilgrrl wrote:
>> > what -does- society want?
>> underware. But as for what it needs? When I figure out how to perform mass
>> cranial enemas ......
>If you are talking about Brain Washing, it's being done all the time.
>YOU (all of us) have grown up with it.
>Metamorph, that is why I'm a contrary person... *grins*
no. We were not assimilated into this society, we assimilated "it".
SolitaireRose
news:3976134f...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
No. They want your money. All of it. For crap like what they sell at
Wal-Mart . So Start Shopping!
--
Cory!! Strode, the Best Dressed Man In Comics
My website is better than yours!
www.solitairerose.com
Futile
<Solita...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>"Futile" <moper...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3976134f...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net...
>> >>so.
>> >>what -does- society want?
>>
>> Compliance and Assimilation.
>>
>> Futile!
>
>No. They want your money. All of it. For crap like what they sell at
>Wal-Mart . So Start Shopping!
Especially those "Gothic Surf" T-shirts they have. Those are kind of
cool.
Futile.