A topic for debate
Ronald M. Carrier
Proposed:
Techno is the popular-music form of conceptual art.
Discuss.
Later...
--
Ronald M. Carrier -- rcar...@suba.com
Graduate Student in Philosophy, Northwestern U.
"Philosophy--I'm only in it for the money."
Prunesquallor
rcar...@suba01.suba.com (Ronald M. Carrier) wrote:
>Proposed:
>Techno is the popular-music form of conceptual art.
>Discuss.
>Later...
Alright Ron, I weazled out on the Religion vs. Science debate - so I'll
bite on this one. But first, we need a starting point. Why do you make the
connection between the two? Why not another musical form such as hip-hop
or something else to connote with conceptual art? Granted, I've not heard
a whole lot of techno, but what I have heard I've found to be a bit vapid,
same with conceptual art; is that the connection? ;)
Where's {exile}? Ohhh {exile} ...
Prunesquallor
- you have to keep your reply under 100 lines though, otherwise all bets
are off :P
P.S.
Hope that last bit didn't offend you; it's the length of your posts and
the time investment needed to properly respond to them that usually makes
me hold off on replying - and I'd like to discuss this if you're serious.
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exile
In article <5i6l7t$5...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
}rcar...@suba01.suba.com (Ronald M. Carrier) wrote:
}>Techno is the popular-music form of conceptual art.
}
} Alright Ron, I weazled out on the Religion vs. Science debate - so I'll
}bite on this one. But first, we need a starting point. Why do you make the
}connection between the two? Why not another musical form such as hip-hop
}or something else to connote with conceptual art? Granted, I've not heard
}a whole lot of techno, but what I have heard I've found to be a bit vapid,
}same with conceptual art; is that the connection? ;)
}
} Where's {exile}? Ohhh {exile} ...
But, but, but...
{trying hard to figure out how to whine in text}
~I don liiike conceptual art~
I suppose that gives the two something else in common.
Techno is all concept and no form?
Personally... I'd see it the other way. All form no concept. It's purely
decorative and not very good at that. Unless... the idea is to sell records
and give people something banal and soulless to bop about to.
{exile}
He spent all that day roaming over the house. He nearly drowned himself in the
bath-tubs, put his nose into the ink on a writing table, and burned it on the
end of the big man's cigar, for he climbed up in the big man's lap to see
how writing was done. {R.Kipling}
Canticle
Ronald M. Carrier <rcar...@suba01.suba.com>
: Proposed:
: Techno is the popular-music form of conceptual art.
Errr...
I have encountered very little in the way of techno that I can appreciate
at all in any way, shape, form or manner. About the only techno song I've
ever appreciated at all, as a matter of fact, is Electron, by Eo...and it's
weird because the song strikes me as an interpretation of something...what,
I'm not sure, because I'm horribly grounded in the mundane and banal
reality into which I've been thrust kicking and screaming by the trolls
which must surely govern the universe....ok, I'm being pretensious now,
I'll shut up.
I'd amend what you said to read that Techno is the popular-music form of TV
Advertising. It's meant to be catchy and quick, and convey a simple,
ordinary, utterly boring message...although once in a great while you'll
come across something truly original and meaningful.
Jeff-boy
exile
In article <5i8jlb$e...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
gha...@ix.netcom.com__removethistorespond (Prunesquallor) wrote:} I don't like it either - now hush up and play. ;)
Alright, alright...
}> I suppose that gives the two something else in common.
}
} Okay, we've established that they are both vapid and unlikable. Do we
}have any other points of commonality? Can we connect them to any sort of
}aberrant behavior - such as obsessive scab-picking or ear wax monitoring?
Sensationalism?
}> Techno is all concept and no form?
}
} Hey - I think you're onto something. I can just see techno musicians,
}before recording saying things like: "Okay, we're going to make some
}_REALLY_ cool and meaningful music that will focus on Kant's infatuation
}with women's issues." "Yeah! We could call it _A Posteriories et Saving
}Cream 'Cause I Can't_ and REALLY make a STATEMENT baby!" "Cool, lets hit
}it."
I do hope we're both being sarcastic.
I figure someone probably sits around their bedroom or the lobby in the
studio messing about with a drum machine 'till someone walks into the room and
says... "hey... I think you may have something there." Or... until they get
that little quirky sensation in their knees that's indicative of a decent
dance beat.
Then... they listen to that beat until they think of something else that
might work with it or the next door neighbor tosses something out of the
second story window and our intrepid techno musician get a thought like...
"hey... I could pound on some trash cans, sample it, toss in the scream from
that cat that he hit with the garbage and the squeal of the tires of the car
that swerved to avoid the cat as it ran yowling into the street.
{Now... to recreate the whole mess.}"
I think the idea's thrown in after the fact.
"Hey... that sounds like the way I feel about folks starving in third world
countries... I think I'll call it Argentina Yowls like a Can of Cats."
} Never occurred to me exactly how similar the two forms were.
And the conceptual artist?
Probably sits in a similar place until something similar happens. Then...
"Ok... If I take some trash cans, lock a cat inside one of them and set up
conveyor system that drops bits of offal {must really disturb the audience and
make the gallery earn their 6o%} on top of the can *next* to the can that the
cat's in and let folks observe the actions of the can with the cat in it
{maybe paint the cat can purple or something} then I can represent the idea
of... ummm.... *osmosis*... yeah!, that's it... osmosis... Now... how can I
relate that to society?
Ok... Ok... I can make a simply lovely statement about the effects of the
poverty in third world nations on the more affluent nations by painting a
picture of Argentina on the floor next to the struck can, etc, etc, etc..."
}> Personally... I'd see it the other way. All form no concept. It's purely
}>decorative and not very good at that. Unless... the idea is to sell records
}>and give people something banal and soulless to bop about to.
}
} Which is, strangely, very similar to the way I feel about conceptual art.
I thought conceptual art was supposed to be all concept no form. Tho'. I
suppose, in reality, the opposite may be true. Maybe it's dependant on the
integrity of the artist?
I'd think both forms lend themselves to easy, disposable art... not really
requiring devotion, dedication or honesty on the part of the artist. Again...
that's up to the artist.
} Actually, I don't dislike the idea of conceptual art, just 99.99% of
}conceptual artists - pretentious poseurs, IMNSHO, without any more real
}artistic ability than that required to be an Amway salesman.
I like the idea. I can't take it very seriously though. I've always thought
it was a way to fill galleries and promote the artist. Then again... maybe
that's the point.
Prunesquallor
ex...@tezcat.com (exile) wrote:
> ~I don liiike conceptual art~
I don't like it either - now hush up and play. ;)
> I suppose that gives the two something else in common.
Okay, we've established that they are both vapid and unlikable. Do we
have any other points of commonality? Can we connect them to any sort of
aberrant behavior - such as obsessive scab-picking or ear wax monitoring?
> Techno is all concept and no form?
Hey - I think you're onto something. I can just see techno musicians,
before recording saying things like: "Okay, we're going to make some
_REALLY_ cool and meaningful music that will focus on Kant's infatuation
with women's issues." "Yeah! We could call it _A Posteriories et Saving
Cream 'Cause I Can't_ and REALLY make a STATEMENT baby!" "Cool, lets hit
it."
Never occurred to me exactly how similar the two forms were.
> Personally... I'd see it the other way. All form no concept. It's purely
>decorative and not very good at that. Unless... the idea is to sell records
>and give people something banal and soulless to bop about to.
Which is, strangely, very similar to the way I feel about conceptual art.
Actually, I don't dislike the idea of conceptual art, just 99.99% of
conceptual artists - pretentious poseurs, IMNSHO, without any more real
artistic ability than that required to be an Amway salesman.
Prunesquallor
- leaving himself wide open on this one.
Geoff Steckel
In article <5i93jg$8...@tepe.tezcat.com>, exile <ex...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>In article <5i8jlb$e...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>gha...@ix.netcom.com__removethistorespond (Prunesquallor) wrote:
>}> ~I don liiike conceptual art~
>} I don't like it either - now hush up and play. ;)
> Alright, alright...
ROFL! May I join in?
>}> I suppose that gives the two something else in common.
>} Okay, we've established that they are both vapid and unlikable. Do we
>}have any other points of commonality? Can we connect them to any sort of
>}aberrant behavior - such as obsessive scab-picking or ear wax monitoring?
> Sensationalism?
>}> Techno is all concept and no form?
[how to write techno with no brains at all (:-)]
> "Hey... that sounds like the way I feel about folks starving in third world
>countries... I think I'll call it Argentina Yowls like a Can of Cats."
>} Never occurred to me exactly how similar the two forms were.
> And the conceptual artist?
> Probably sits in a similar place until something similar happens. Then...
>
> "Ok... If I take some trash cans, lock a cat inside one of them and set up
>conveyor system that drops bits of offal {must really disturb the audience and
>make the gallery earn their 6o%} on top of the can *next* to the can that the
[how to create conceptual art with no brain at all (:-)]
Do techno writers write MANIFESTOs? Every conceptual piece must have
a STATEMENT or MANIFESTO, an Artist's Life, and a vocal rant.
This attracts journalists and confuses critics.
> I thought conceptual art was supposed to be all concept no form. Tho'. I
>suppose, in reality, the opposite may be true. Maybe it's dependant on the
>integrity of the artist?
Integrity as in structural solidity? May I raise a question about
communication, where artistic integrity includes efforts to communicate
to people outside the artist's skull?
> I'd think both forms lend themselves to easy, disposable art... not really
>requiring devotion, dedication or honesty on the part of the artist. Again...
>that's up to the artist.
>
>} Actually, I don't dislike the idea of conceptual art, just 99.99% of
>}conceptual artists - pretentious poseurs, IMNSHO, without any more real
>}artistic ability than that required to be an Amway salesman.
>
> I like the idea. I can't take it very seriously though. I've always thought
>it was a way to fill galleries and promote the artist. Then again... maybe
>that's the point.
I think that conceptual art as mostly practised is a way of doing the
-look-at-me- dance. To transfer the concept, a well written manifesto
would do it, but nobody would pay much for that. Separating concept
from realization, the distinction between conceptual art and techno is
the position of the public (seated/walking vs. dancing) and the admission
fee.
Maybe conceptual artists should do techno albums and take their
installations on tour to promote the albums?
ash
exile
In article <E8A23...@spdcc.com>, gw...@spdcc.com (Geoff Steckel) wrote:
}In article <5i93jg$8...@tepe.tezcat.com>, exile <ex...@tezcat.com> wrote:
}>In article <5i8jlb$e...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
}>gha...@ix.netcom.com__removethistorespond (Prunesquallor) wrote:
}[how to create conceptual art with no brain at all (:-)]
}
}Do techno writers write MANIFESTOs? Every conceptual piece must have
}a STATEMENT or MANIFESTO, an Artist's Life, and a vocal rant.
}This attracts journalists and confuses critics.
And gives the artist a basis for his "line of bullshit TM" {your "vocal
rant"?}.
Usually the artist can develop the "concept" of a piece by throwing a
"concept outline" at the audience and building on it by answering the
audiences questions... A manifesto might make a dandy outline.
The problem with this is that sometimes the artist gets backed into a corner
and is stuck defending an idea that has nothing to do with his original {if
any} intent.
}> I thought conceptual art was supposed to be all concept no form. Tho'. I
}>suppose, in reality, the opposite may be true. Maybe it's dependant on the
}>integrity of the artist?
}
}Integrity as in structural solidity? May I raise a question about
}communication, where artistic integrity includes efforts to communicate
}to people outside the artist's skull?
My definition of artistic integrity would include that... Personally, I think
art needs to communicate to be effective.
}> I'd think both forms lend themselves to easy, disposable art... not really
}>requiring devotion, dedication or honesty on the part of the artist. Again...
}>that's up to the artist.
}>
}>} Actually, I don't dislike the idea of conceptual art, just 99.99% of
}>}conceptual artists - pretentious poseurs, IMNSHO, without any more real
}>}artistic ability than that required to be an Amway salesman.
}>
}> I like the idea. I can't take it very seriously though. I've always thought
}>it was a way to fill galleries and promote the artist. Then again... maybe
}>that's the point.
}
}I think that conceptual art as mostly practised is a way of doing the
}-look-at-me- dance. To transfer the concept, a well written manifesto
}would do it, but nobody would pay much for that. Separating concept
}from realization, the distinction between conceptual art and techno is
}the position of the public (seated/walking vs. dancing) and the admission
}fee.
So... the realization of the concept is all marketing?
"We put those trash cans there so we could convince you that America is
overly affluent."
}Maybe conceptual artists should do techno albums and take their
}installations on tour to promote the albums?
Like GWAR, Alice Cooper, Genesis, Skinny Puppy, etc? Tho' not exactly
techno... the same idea might apply.
Geoff Steckel
In article <5ic5g9$9...@tepe.tezcat.com>, exile <ex...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>In article <E8A23...@spdcc.com>, gw...@spdcc.com (Geoff Steckel) wrote:
>}In article <5i93jg$8...@tepe.tezcat.com>, exile <ex...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>
>}[how to create conceptual art with no brain at all (:-)]
>}
>}Do techno writers write MANIFESTOs? Every conceptual piece must have
>}a STATEMENT or MANIFESTO, an Artist's Life, and a vocal rant.
>}This attracts journalists and confuses critics.
>
> And gives the artist a basis for his "line of bullshit TM" {your "vocal
>rant"?}.
>
> Usually the artist can develop the "concept" of a piece by throwing a
>"concept outline" at the audience and building on it by answering the
>audiences questions... A manifesto might make a dandy outline.
It looks like the "LoB(tm)" often comes first. The outline is written
(a) because the show opens tomorrow
or
(b) early on because the artist in question prefers writing to
-erm- nonwritten stuff
> The problem with this is that sometimes the artist gets backed into a corner
>and is stuck defending an idea that has nothing to do with his original {if
>any} intent.
Defenses I've seen don't have much to do with anything either.
20 pages of Artforum...
>}would do it, but nobody would pay much for that. Separating concept
>}from realization, the distinction between conceptual art and techno is
>}the position of the public (seated/walking vs. dancing) and the admission
>}fee.
>
> So... the realization of the concept is all marketing?
>
> "We put those trash cans there so we could convince you that America is
>overly affluent."
Well, yeah. Versailles is pretty effective work of art saying
that "the guy who commissioned me is richer than you can imagine"
while being actually -made- of plaster, wood, and paint.
Also saying "I don't -have- taste, I -define- taste".
>}Maybe conceptual artists should do techno albums and take their
>}installations on tour to promote the albums?
>
> Like GWAR, Alice Cooper, Genesis, Skinny Puppy, etc? Tho' not exactly
>techno... the same idea might apply.
It gets a much bigger audience than an opening on Newbury St. (:-)
ash
Kyper
On 5 Apr 1997 11:14:10 -0600 the one known as rcar...@suba01.suba.com
(Ronald M. Carrier) wrote:
>Techno is the popular-music form of conceptual art.
Some techno is. Like the stuff that Daft Punk are producing right now...
Most of Orbital's stuff is quite good...
A lot of the other stuff is complete crap....
- Aidan
Warning! The e-mail address in the from and reply to headers is a spam trap.
To e-mail me write to "aidan" "@" "skinner.demon.co.uk", removing the quote
marks. Sadly, this has been necessary due to the amount of junk I recieve.
LlizardKng
I must agree that most Techno being put out now is poo
Justin Newstrum
LlizardKng (lliza...@aol.com) wrote:
: I must agree that most Techno being put out now is poo
IMO most music in general right now is 'poo'. There are afew bands that
are actually produce intellegent, innovative music, but the vast bulk of
what you will find in your local record store is just derivative crap. I
tend to find that the bet place to find intellegent music nowadays is in
fact with techno/industrial.
going back to the earlier thread about rivetheads hating goths for me just
stems from the fact that most 'Gothic' music is just as copycat and stale
as most other genres of music.
Justin
Kathryn M. Denton
Looking for good techno?
Four words: Future Sound of London!
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