youthful angst mass-reply

Pauline Law

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Feb 17, 2004, 12:18:26 PM2/17/04

to

i don't have the time reply to each person individually, so i'm going to
break this down categorically:

- why does pauline want to be able to drink?

obtaining alcohol is not actually a problem for me (in fact, all of my
fellow underage friends are always asking me to "work my connections", if
you know what i mean) but in pennsylvania and in massachusetts, the two
states in which i spend most of my time, the liquor laws are positively
draconian. pennsylvania requires a physical barrier between any alcohol
and underaged youth; massachusetts will not allow anyone under 18 in a
public setting where alcohol is served. plus most of the good shows are
21+. this is a problem. this means my friends are busy getting drunk and
stupid over the bar and not talking to me or thinking of talking to me
because i am not in the same setting as they are. that stinks. usually
they come out to say hello, but then it's back to the alcohol...!

- why don't you get a fake id, pauline? (re: siani)

that wouldn't benefit me much in pgh because i know the staffpeople
at the venues. well, actually, there's only one major venue that the goths
hang out at.. boston venues tend to be very very militant.

also, i am respectful of legally allowed people's ability and desire to
get drunk -- i don't want to get the venue in trouble and shut down --
that would ruin a good time for everyone else.

- what social opportunities do sixteen year olds have?

*this* sixteen year old spends most of her week isolated from the
off-campus friends anyway, because she spends most of her week in
class/doing homework/writing stupid vpython code/i hate vpython (oops, off
on a tangent)/working/mentoring underprivileged youth/doing stuff around
the radio station (i.e., training for production-clearance, dj'ing,
directing the calendar). umm... sometimes i go to shows in shitty venues
with unknown bands. actually, those are usually pretty rad.

i think most sixteen year olds get drunk and smoke pot a lot.

and yes, to be honest, i do imbibe fairly frequently in private with my
oldpeople friends. not big on illegal substances, though; i don't like the
vague 'culture' that's associated with them...

- why don't you go to dormitory parties?

frat parties (as i have mentioned before) are stupid. they generally
consist of underagers getting drunk and lots of disgusting boys in track
suits and girls in low-cut shirts grinding to bad hip-hop.

dormitory parties, on the other hand, often don't coincide with really
awesome bands playing in the same room, i think.

i *do* go to private parties -- i'm not complaining about that! i just
want to be able to hang out with my friends in public too. i wouldn't be
getting sloshed with them since hello, i'm in college? i don't think i
actually have money to buy drinks (other than dropping $20 or so in the
'tip bucket' at private parties).

- why are you in a rush to grow up? (in so many words from alt.gothic OG)

i'm really not. please! this august, i hope to turn sixteen again.

this is a very unhelpful attitude to take when discussing my youth --
please understand, i am, for all intents and purposes, an adult. just not
legally recognized as such, and mostly not socially recognized as such
(except for those people who spend a handful of hours with me every few
weeks or so). i don't intend to argue and prove this point (i wonder how
one would do this in an objective fashion?) but if you really must insist,
i can solicit testimonials from no-longer-active hardc0re 0ld sk00l
a.g.'ers with n3t.dicks at least as big as yours.

- and when you say "she's too young for you", do you mean too young for
friendship or for a relationship? (re: jennie)

four words:
THE DIRTY OLD MEN.

(um, ok, so i admit that there is a big difference between someone who is
hot and old and someone who is not hot and old...)

- you should sell your story and become hilary duff! (klaatu, i think?)

aghh! i'll save it for someone else!

pauline

--

carnegie mellon university
department of being spaced-out

post wednesdays 9-10pm
wrct88.3fm http://wrct.org/

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 17, 2004, 1:20:53 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:
> i don't have the time reply to each person individually, so i'm going to
> break this down categorically:

<snips>

> - why are you in a rush to grow up? (in so many words from alt.gothic OG)
>
> i'm really not. please! this august, i hope to turn sixteen again.
>
> this is a very unhelpful attitude to take when discussing my youth --
> please understand, i am, for all intents and purposes, an adult. just not
> legally recognized as such, and mostly not socially recognized as such
> (except for those people who spend a handful of hours with me every few
> weeks or so). i don't intend to argue and prove this point (i wonder how
> one would do this in an objective fashion?) but if you really must insist,
> i can solicit testimonials from no-longer-active hardc0re 0ld sk00l
> a.g.'ers with n3t.dicks at least as big as yours.

Ahem. Not necessary. Look, I said this elsewhere. But I'll rephrase and
reiterate.

With your class of intelligence -- I don't know the specifics but just
guessing that if you're in a college physics cirriculum at age 16, it's
pretty high -- you've been an adult trapped in a juvenile legal-class
existence for some time now. We accept and understand this. My own
skills were less math-centric than your own, but I did pretty much the
same thing. Quite likely, so did most of us. So, we can remember the
disaccomodated feeling rather well, but generally speaking, we can only
advise that time will pass for you as it did for us. Then again, they
also say that one only experiences pain at the moment and in memory it's
not even the bare shadow of what is was when it was experienced. So,
you're suffering now and we can't really relate because for us it's just
a memory. But perhaps we can't remember the pain, but can remember what
we did to deal with it. And really, you appear to be dealing with it in
about the same way that we did. Complain when you feel the need, but
mostly all you can do is try to not watch the clock too much, and the
time will pass, in time.

Not very helpful, I'm sure.

> - and when you say "she's too young for you", do you mean too young for
> friendship or for a relationship? (re: jennie)
>
> four words:
> THE DIRTY OLD MEN.

Have I mentioned yet that I am a dirty Old Man? Not that I'm trying to
pick you up, it's just that I am not quite three times your age. Feel
free to call me granpda, ya whippersnapper. Why, if I could straighten
up enough to reach my cane and walker, I'd hobble on over there and
wheeze at you. ;-)

>
> (um, ok, so i admit that there is a big difference between someone who is
> hot and old and someone who is not hot and old...)
>
> - you should sell your story and become hilary duff! (klaatu, i think?)

Jeeze, now you're even too tired to detect sardonic irony. Actually, I
was thinking about this recent film "Thirteen"[1], which opened a lot of
parents' eyes about their early-teens' lives (wouldn't surprise me
tho'). My suggestion, really, is less that you become the Hilary Duff of
Goth, and more that you try to write and produce a similarly
enlightening documentary. It might even have commercial possibilities
above and beyond distribution to the Indy markets, for instance see the
rather well-done film "Real Genius"[2].

Perhaps I'm just curious as to what is the life of a "teen genius" in
advanced admissions to college. While you're busy angsting between
classes, homework, and activities, feel free to take voluminous notes
that could easily be turned into something saleable. You could write,
direct, and do the soundtrack, I suspect.

Ref:
1. http://www.indiewire.com/movies/movies_030820thirteen.html
2. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089886/combined

--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"

Pauline Law

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Feb 17, 2004, 4:42:43 PM2/17/04

to

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:

> Pauline Law wrote:

> So, we can remember the disaccomodated feeling rather well, but
> generally speaking, we can only advise that time will pass for you as it
> did for us.

[...]

> Not very helpful, I'm sure.

nope, particularly since i realized that sitting tight is the only course
of action (given my refusal to obtain a fake id, which i have been
prompted to on many occasions). pauline is really a grownup (*really!*);
that is, sentiments of that sort are kind of. um. obvious. but that was
the reason for my howl of anguish in the middle of the night. because i
*know* there is nothing i can do. jkldaflka;jdf;kl grarrgg. thank you
for trying, though.

> > four words:
> > THE DIRTY OLD MEN.
>
> Have I mentioned yet that I am a dirty Old Man? Not that I'm trying to
> pick you up, it's just that I am not quite three times your age. Feel
> free to call me granpda, ya whippersnapper. Why, if I could straighten
> up enough to reach my cane and walker, I'd hobble on over there and
> wheeze at you. ;-)

yeah, well, i'm grumpier and more curmudgeony. i bet i can even make
better grumpy curmudgeon faces.

so hmph.

> > - you should sell your story and become hilary duff! (klaatu, i think?)
>
> Jeeze, now you're even too tired to detect sardonic irony.

no way, i was out-metaing you one step further!

> Perhaps I'm just curious as to what is the life of a "teen genius" in
> advanced admissions to college. While you're busy angsting between
> classes, homework, and activities, feel free to take voluminous notes
> that could easily be turned into something saleable. You could write,
> direct, and do the soundtrack, I suspect.

i'm sure the general public will find the story of:

That Girl Who Did Homework A Lot

or

That Girl Who Wrestled With Her Pseudo-VPython-Code A Lot

or

That Girl Who Rode Public Transportation A Lot

absolutely fascinating.

bus driver: why are you running? there's no need to run.
pauline: well, the bus slowed down, and i was still going fast, so...
bus driver: i made you run on purpose!
pauline: well, i got up on purpose so i could run!

oh yeah. workin' newton's first law.

in fact, while my conversational skills are absolutely brilliant, my
scriptwriting, insofar as i've ever cared to investigate, is rather
wooden. do you have a ghostwriter you'd recommend?

siani evans

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Feb 17, 2004, 5:15:49 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:

> - why don't you get a fake id, pauline? (re: siani)
>
> that wouldn't benefit me much in pgh because i know the staffpeople
> at the venues. well, actually, there's only one major venue that the goths
> hang out at.. boston venues tend to be very very militant.
>
> also, i am respectful of legally allowed people's ability and desire to
> get drunk -- i don't want to get the venue in trouble and shut down --
> that would ruin a good time for everyone else.

well, then why not get involved in organising some *decent* all ages
events? surely you can't be the only cool person under 18/21 in your
area... maybe if you tried to organise something you'd find others.

> i *do* go to private parties -- i'm not complaining about that! i just
> want to be able to hang out with my friends in public too.

what about a weekly pre-clubbing meet at a coffeehouse or something
similar?

> - and when you say "she's too young for you", do you mean too young for
> friendship or for a relationship? (re: jennie)
>
> four words:
> THE DIRTY OLD MEN.
>
> (um, ok, so i admit that there is a big difference between someone who is
> hot and old and someone who is not hot and old...)

what is it? i just generally liked people a bit older than me. i don't
think that my attitude was much different between those who were hot,
and those who weren't, except that i would have shagged any of the hot
ones had they shown any interest.... but that applied just as well to
those my own age.

i've got to admit, while i do remember all the stress of being younger
than my friends, and not being able to do some stuff, i *loved* being
16, personally. i went to the UK by myself (my first big trip all
alone!) which was exciting, i got my drivers license, which was the best
thing ***ever***, and i think it's when i finally started to be less shy
and to stop trying to fit into stuff. i loved going to parties with my
friends all summer when they came home from university (not many of them
were still in school), i loved my friends taking me for drives, i loved
finally getting tits, and i loved going to concerts. but somehow i
don't think i wanted to admit how much i enjoyed all that at the time,
for fear that people would think less of me for it. <shrugs> if i'd
learned to just say what i thought i would have enjoyed it even more!

siani
--
\\||//
- oo -
-|--|- (hedgehog)

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 17, 2004, 6:27:30 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>Pauline Law wrote:
>
>

<snips>

>
>>>four words:
>>>THE DIRTY OLD MEN.
>>
>>Have I mentioned yet that I am a dirty Old Man? Not that I'm trying to
>>pick you up, it's just that I am not quite three times your age. Feel
>>free to call me granpda, ya whippersnapper. Why, if I could straighten
>>up enough to reach my cane and walker, I'd hobble on over there and
>>wheeze at you. ;-)
>
>
> yeah, well, i'm grumpier and more curmudgeony.

No way. It takes years and years to achieve the exalted state of
grumpiness of which I am the curmudgeonly master. I can even
sarcastically bitch myself out.

> i bet i can even make
> better grumpy curmudgeon faces.
>
> so hmph.

I suspect that I am more curmudgeonly in my sleep than you are at your
most disgruntled. Though I hasten to remind myself that those who are
gifted in one way are often gifted in another; you might be destined to
be the uber-grumpmeister.

>>>- you should sell your story and become hilary duff! (klaatu, i think?)
>>
>>Jeeze, now you're even too tired to detect sardonic irony.
>
>
> no way, i was out-metaing you one step further!
>
>
>>Perhaps I'm just curious as to what is the life of a "teen genius" in
>>advanced admissions to college. While you're busy angsting between
>>classes, homework, and activities, feel free to take voluminous notes
>>that could easily be turned into something saleable. You could write,
>>direct, and do the soundtrack, I suspect.
>
>
> i'm sure the general public will find the story of:
>
> That Girl Who Did Homework A Lot
>
> or
>
> That Girl Who Wrestled With Her Pseudo-VPython-Code A Lot
>
> or
>
> That Girl Who Rode Public Transportation A Lot
>
> absolutely fascinating.
>
> bus driver: why are you running? there's no need to run.
> pauline: well, the bus slowed down, and i was still going fast, so...
> bus driver: i made you run on purpose!
> pauline: well, i got up on purpose so i could run!
>
> oh yeah. workin' newton's first law.
>
> in fact, while my conversational skills are absolutely brilliant, my
> scriptwriting, insofar as i've ever cared to investigate, is rather
> wooden. do you have a ghostwriter you'd recommend?

I'm feeling bored and should be doing other things. The Fate of the Free
World hangs in the balance. However...

Pauline viciously swipes at the alarm clock which balefully informs her
that the hour is outrageous, but here nonetheless: time to get up. She
wraps her blanket around her and rises from her bed, and mutters dire
imprecations as in her progress towards the shower she entangles her
little toe in the charger cord of her laptop and trips face-first onto
her study table. Her face becomes a study in curmudgeonly grumpiness as
she surveys the damage.

Exiting the shower, she contemplates the morning's inevitable encounter
-- unless perhaps $DEITY has intervened with a nice snowstorm -- with
her personal minor morning nemesis, the Bus Driver of Endless Damnation.
Or is that Damnability? Either way, she's looking forward to this in the
same way she's looking forward to being stretched on the rack.

Warmly, if less than acceptably, dressed, she tears down the sidewalk,
nearly slips on fresh ice, knocks over several trash-cans, and in the
process of recovering her balance, loses her bag with the precious
laptop in it and watches it flop into the street, only to skitter on
more fresh ice. She makes a profound calculation of mass and motion and
friction and rebound and is in the perfect place to snatch it from the
jaws of light traffic. And in the distance, she can hear it: The Bus.

The Bus Driver seems nice enough, but Pauline is not fooled. If she
responds to the apparent courtesies of this person, she's only giving
him ammunition to use against her. Oh, his petty vengeances are limited
in scale and scope, however if they are repeated with suitable
variations day upon day for the rest of the semester, she will be far
too agitated and grumpy to do well with her studies. She favors the bus
driver, therefor, with only her most subtle and damaging of sarcasms.
She will turn upon the bus driver his own best strategem, false camaraderie.

[ see above for dialogue ]

As she seats herself, their brief conversation leaving the bus-driver
wondering what the heck just happened to him, she ponders her memory of
the night before. Oh, the lonely hours of relentlessly banging the
keyboard, interspersed with diet pepsi and RTFM, no time for friends or
enemies, she's wrestling with a Python and it's not being particularly
helpful in this application. She could have been done hours ago, days,
possibly; but she's decided that simply getting it to work won't do.
She's trying for elegance, but knows full well that if she can't get
this done the way she wants it done, by tomorrow bed-time, she will be
for the next twelve hours straight, slapping together some hideous
brute-force functionality that won't be quite nasty enough to force her
instructor to fail her. But she's close, she knows she's close, to
either an A or a D, with nothing in between.

Lecture on the subject isn't improving her mood. The lecturer is waxing
positively eloquent about reiterative structure regeneration, inverse
sort ordering within subroutines, and the importance of a friendly
interface, all of which she already accepts as personal goals of coder
aspiration and all of which are exactly the main problems with her
present project. Twitching slightly, she sneaks out of lecture before
the lecturer can offer to take a look at what she's doing and make
helpful suggestions that would make her blood boil over into something
akin to a killer rage. Her cellphone beeps the arrival of a textie.

Of course, Killer Band From Hell is playing, right here, one week from
today, after everything's been turned in that has to be done soon, and
of course it's playing in an adults-only venue and of course it's her
favorite band and all of her friends will be there. And of course, as
she thrns the corner in the hall, half of her friends are standing right
there, talking about it.

And now the camera, which has so far only focussed on the young student
herself, her actions, her laptop and manuals and style guides and other
props and scenery, really examines her and places other people in the
same focus as she has been in... and you realize that as she joins the
crowd, she's a bit out of place. One of her friends says, "Oh Hi
Pauline, meet Brad[1]. Brad, this is Pauline, advanced admissions you
know, and don't get any ideas, she's too young for you." Pauline isn't
too happy but you can tell she's almost as used to it as she'll ever get.

"Okay, hi, Brad, nice to meetcha. Hey, you guys going to see Killer Band
From Hell?"

"Well, of course, who could miss _them_?"

"Well, um, me..."

"Oh, that's right, Club Local is 18-and-over. Wow, you must be pissed
off, I know they're your favorite band."

Brad pipes in, "Hey, my friend's brother, he says he can get totally
perfect fake ID, maybe you could get in that way?"

Pauline visibly mopes. Pure funk can be seen to be settling in.

[ etc etc etc ]

Okay, my apologies, I'm just trying to take what I think you've been
saying and put it in a format more amenable to making it come out like a
story, instead of the angsty ruminations and glooming of a grumpy
curmudgeon. Furthermore, I am trying to make it evident from the actions
of all involved (more detail is necessary of course, omitted here) that
rather than declaring that you're a grumpy and curmudgeonly teen smarty
in intense college course, that you're demonstrated to be such.

Actual writers may feel free to shred me, as may you. Or, expand as you
will.

Ref:
1. Brad?! No, no way, just couldn't think of anything else, other than
maybe Chris or Jan.

Pauline Law

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Feb 17, 2004, 7:54:12 PM2/17/04

to

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, siani evans wrote:

> well, then why not get involved in organising some *decent* all ages
> events? surely you can't be the only cool person under 18/21 in your
> area... maybe if you tried to organise something you'd find others.

there are, in fact, a fair amount of *good* all ages shows in pgh.
killing joke, for example, was all ages. the problem, however, is that
the youngins these days are way more into the oontz and not enough into
rockin' out.

while i, for one, do not uniformly shun the oontz like some
holier-than-thou deathrockers, i am not interested in putting on events
that consist of too much doomph-doomph-doomph. there's a lot of that
available! but the kids don't go out to shows that much, it seems -- the
old-timers tell me that the "scene" (psh, whatever) used to be much
better.

pittsburgh actually has a fair amount of all-ages venues that are pretty
rockin'. please tell me how i can convince the trendy indie rock kids to
go to the decidedly untrendy goth club. wait, i'm also not indie rock
enough for the indie rockers, because i'm so indie rock i don't fit with
people who share my musical taste. i'm just *that* indie rock.

> what about a weekly pre-clubbing meet at a coffeehouse or something
> similar?

actually, i can go to the club! the only club in pgh is all ages. what i
can't do, however, is hang out with my friends while at the club, because
i know all of.. uh. two people who are under 21 who go to the club.

people generally don't have 18+ events here because there's no point in
doing that since the liquor is already physically separated from the
youngins.

> what is it?

heehee.
well, hot old men are hot, and not hot old men are, um, not hot.

so if a hot old man comes up to me and starts hit on me i politely, um,
decline, and say why. and if they continue to do so, then that's ok with
me!

on the other hand, if a not hot old man comes up to me and continues to
hit on me after i've done my part to extricate myself from the situation,
i say: "see that nice man in the booth? do you hear the kind of music he's
playing? ("aggro/ebm") do you see how tall and big and scary he is?
well... he doesn't like it when old people hit on me very much."

the underlying theory is that hot old men could get chicks their own age,
whereas not hot old men can't and therefore need to hit on young girls to
get laid.

> except that i would have shagged any of the hot ones had they shown any
> interest.... but that applied just as well to those my own age.

yes, that's what i was implying! except as i've gotten older i've gotten
more prudish, so i tend to draw a line at, um, 25 or so. with very special
exceptions of course...

> i've got to admit, while i do remember all the stress of being younger
> than my friends, and not being able to do some stuff, i *loved* being
> 16, personally.

don't get me wrong -- i like being sixteen! in fact, i hope to turn
sixteen again. and i *do* have a good time, generally, i just wish i
didn't live in such an ass-backward country and i could go to 80's night
(which is 21+).

oh! also, on thursday, i'll finally be old enough to hold a driver's
license in the state of massachusetts. woo-hoo. of course i shall
continue to take the bus, and maybe get around to building myself a bike
at some point.

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 17, 2004, 8:25:18 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:

<snips>

> the underlying theory is that hot old men could get chicks their own age,
> whereas not hot old men can't and therefore need to hit on young girls to
> get laid.

Depending on how old an old man is, there might not be chicks their own
age, regardless of how hot he is.

Um, how old is "old"?

If you're 16, I presume that you call "23" old.

As someone who is actually -- on the general human scale -- approaching
the age range generally called "slightly post-prime" in men and
"matronly" in women, if you called _me_ old I wouldn't mind nor be
surprised.

If, on the other hand, you were calling some guy who was 27 "old", I
would suggest that perhaps your vocabulary to describe age ranges might
be in need of some new terminology. Or maybe just use actual numbers.
Because I would tend to think of 27 as adult, but not by much. 23 I'd
generally consider a kid... quite possibly one with a better education
than I have, and adult in their capacities. However should I encounter
anything resembling actual wisdom from such a person I might be somewhat
shocked.

--klaatu, time to resurrect the Ancient Dino Debate Thread, and thought
he should point out that the Ancient Dinos traditionally mutter,
grumble, and stumble about, when reminded that they're considered just
unappealing

PS did I mention that I am grumpy and curmudgeonly?

Pauline Law

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Feb 17, 2004, 8:29:15 PM2/17/04

to

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:

> I suspect that I am more curmudgeonly in my sleep than you are at your
> most disgruntled. Though I hasten to remind myself that those who are
> gifted in one way are often gifted in another; you might be destined to
> be the uber-grumpmeister.

gosh, i think you've just found me a new nickname.

> Pauline viciously swipes at the alarm clock which balefully informs her
> that the hour is outrageous, but here nonetheless: time to get up. She
> wraps her blanket around her and rises from her bed, and mutters dire
> imprecations as in her progress towards the shower she entangles her
> little toe in the charger cord of her laptop and trips face-first onto
> her study table. Her face becomes a study in curmudgeonly grumpiness as
> she surveys the damage.

(editorial note: i don't use a laptop.)

> Exiting the shower, she contemplates the morning's inevitable encounter
> -- unless perhaps $DEITY has intervened with a nice snowstorm -- with
> her personal minor morning nemesis, the Bus Driver of Endless Damnation.

generally my commute to school usually consists of crossing a single
street and walking some 5 minutes to the appropriate building... of
course, that can be perilous at times, as evidenced by the fact that on
october 26, i was hit by a car (and later went out to play DDR that very
night).

> Warmly, if less than acceptably, dressed,

excuse me.
i am never less than acceptably dressed. is that clear? not on your life.

> she tears down the sidewalk, nearly slips on fresh ice, knocks over
> several trash-cans, and in the process of recovering her balance, loses
> her bag with the precious laptop in it and watches it flop into the
> street, only to skitter on more fresh ice.

this is... a perfect rendering of my life! how did you know?!

> She makes a profound calculation of mass and motion and friction and
> rebound and is in the perfect place to snatch it from the jaws of light
> traffic. And in the distance, she can hear it: The Bus.

if i could do that, i bet i wouldn't have been hit by a car.

> As she seats herself, their brief conversation leaving the bus-driver
> wondering what the heck just happened to him, she ponders her memory of
> the night before.

< snip programming exercises >

ah, joyous me -- i took my one required programming course and i hope to
never do so ever ever ever everrrr again! i hate computers!

the programming i do is actually more like pseudo-coding, because it's a
physics-modeling module tacked on to python called vpython
(http://www.vpython.org/"). most of the "code" i produce typically looks
something like this:

# - model the rod as a collection of n point charges, each with charge q/n
# coulombs. first try very small values of n, then increase n until you
# are satisfied with the accuracy of your results. explain what criterion
# you used to make that decision.

spheres = []

while i<N:
thingy = sphere(pos=(0,i * l/N - l/2,0), color=color.blue,
radius=3e-2)
spheres.append(thingy)
i += 1

etc.

> Of course, Killer Band From Hell is playing, right here, one week from
> today, after everything's been turned in that has to be done soon, and
> of course it's playing in an adults-only venue and of course it's her
> favorite band and all of her friends will be there. And of course, as
> she thrns the corner in the hall, half of her friends are standing right
> there, talking about it.

agh.
i remember that used to happen to me so often as a smaller person.
then i would sit at home. and mope.

> "Oh Hi Pauline, meet Brad[1]. Brad, this is Pauline, advanced admissions
> you know, and don't get any ideas, she's too young for you."

brad! i know brad!

you know, i was first introduced to boo through purp. of course it was
more like net.introduced, since i never saw purp while in boston since he
only appeared in public at those goddamn 21+ events.

so when it came around to actually physically meeting bradley, he told me
i should go around the club and ask people if they knew bradley, since
they would have a 1/2 chance of knowing who i was talking about. so i did.
many times. of course, since everyone outside of the cage was under 21 and
bradley clearly never leaves the bar, that 1/2 estimate was way, way, way
off...

finally, since he was, indeed, at the bar, some random eighteen year old
girl (who said "you're asian; that means i'm going to hit on you" -- you
see this is why i can't hang out with other babygoths) volunteered to help
rattle on the cage and yell BRADDDDDLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEYY. and then she
talked about teh sex0r with him a lot.

yuck.
-wrinkles nose-

> "Okay, hi, Brad, nice to meetcha. Hey, you guys going to see Killer Band
> From Hell?"

usually i append that with: "does anyone want to toss me into a hockey bag
and sneak me in?"

> Brad pipes in, "Hey, my friend's brother, he says he can get totally
> perfect fake ID, maybe you could get in that way?"

it has been suggested to me that i _carve_ myself a fake id.

bradley, however, isn't one to encourage me to sneak in to venues -- he
thinks it's a much better idea for me to drink. a lot. as in,"you should
just get a bottle of wine each week. and don't share. that'll get you
through school alright."

(note for the d.a.: bradley has never purchased alcohol for me, nor does
he ever intend to! -- that would be stupid, since there are electronically
stored records of his encouragement of me to follow this practice.)

> Furthermore, I am trying to make it evident from the actions
> of all involved (more detail is necessary of course, omitted here) that
> rather than declaring that you're a grumpy and curmudgeonly teen smarty
> in intense college course, that you're demonstrated to be such.

what we really need is performance art involving me wearing an angry
looking tiki mask painted red and grumbling "gRARRRRRRRR". maybe some
red-lit fog too.

man, i love talking about myself.
i am *really* full of myself, but if you were me, you would be, too.

uber grumpmeister

Pauline Law

unread,

Feb 17, 2004, 8:41:33 PM2/17/04

to

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:

> Um, how old is "old"?

what kind of old? do you mean too old to shag (not to imply that i have
all kinds of promiscuous sex -- ewwwwwwwwwwie) or, um, just "old"?

if you read my comments later in that post (which i am not going to
furnish for you because i suck) over 25 is the age at which i draw a line
and say, "nope, too old and not h-o-t-t enough to make up for it".

on the other hand, i use the term 'oldpeople friends' as shorthand to
distinguish my
twenty-to-thirty-and-i-think-one-is-forty-something-year-old friends from
my infantile college freshman friends. so my infant friends know which
subset of my life i'm referring to, because there is generally very little
crossover between the two groups.

i tend to think of age 60 as getting a little bit old.
and 94 (the age of my employer!) is pretty darn ancient. that's almost
six times my age.

and you are three times my age? 48? well, i wouldn't say you are in the
sprightly springtime of your youth, but gosh, mr. grumpypants, i'm more
worldly and experienced than thinking you are a dinosaur, mmmk?

> PS did I mention that I am grumpy and curmudgeonly?

clearly you feel as if you haven't mentioned it often enough, so go ahead
and just say it again. or i'll do it:

mr. klaatu is an old, curmudgeonly, grumpy DORKBRAIN.

pauline law

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 17, 2004, 9:37:12 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>I suspect that I am more curmudgeonly in my sleep than you are at your
>>most disgruntled. Though I hasten to remind myself that those who are
>>gifted in one way are often gifted in another; you might be destined to
>>be the uber-grumpmeister.
>
>
> gosh, i think you've just found me a new nickname.
>
>
>>Pauline viciously swipes at the alarm clock which balefully informs her
>>that the hour is outrageous, but here nonetheless: time to get up. She
>>wraps her blanket around her and rises from her bed, and mutters dire
>>imprecations as in her progress towards the shower she entangles her
>>little toe in the charger cord of her laptop and trips face-first onto
>>her study table. Her face becomes a study in curmudgeonly grumpiness as
>>she surveys the damage.
>
>
> (editorial note: i don't use a laptop.)

Actually, as I was writing this, the thought occurred to me, if she's
banging on Python she's UNIX, if she's UNIX she'd probably mainfraimish
or at least big-serverish, if she's big-serverish at CMU she probably
has a nice kerberized login to her account from probably a thousand
workstations around campus. In this sort of situation, laptops are
wireless MP3 players and texties.

>
>
>>Exiting the shower, she contemplates the morning's inevitable encounter
>>-- unless perhaps $DEITY has intervened with a nice snowstorm -- with
>>her personal minor morning nemesis, the Bus Driver of Endless Damnation.
>
>
> generally my commute to school usually consists of crossing a single
> street and walking some 5 minutes to the appropriate building... of
> course, that can be perilous at times, as evidenced by the fact that on
> october 26, i was hit by a car (and later went out to play DDR that very
> night).

Well, you mentioned that you were "she who rides much public
mass-transit". Hence the imaginative thing with the bus-driver, you
know, the one you mentioned...

>
>
>>Warmly, if less than acceptably, dressed,
>
>
> excuse me.
> i am never less than acceptably dressed. is that clear? not on your life.

Sorry, I was having "a senior moment" and couldn't for the life of me
access the word "rumpled", much less "deshabille".

>>she tears down the sidewalk, nearly slips on fresh ice, knocks over
>>several trash-cans, and in the process of recovering her balance, loses
>>her bag with the precious laptop in it and watches it flop into the
>>street, only to skitter on more fresh ice.
>
>
> this is... a perfect rendering of my life! how did you know?!

Either you are being beyond metasarcastic, or perhaps I remember being
young and some rather spectacular foul-ups each and every dy. Oh, and of
course these were totally rare and only occurred to prevent me from
"hubris", in my otherwise awesomely kewl and inspirational-to-all life
of supreme and planned perfection.

>
>
>>She makes a profound calculation of mass and motion and friction and
>>rebound and is in the perfect place to snatch it from the jaws of light
>>traffic. And in the distance, she can hear it: The Bus.
>
>
> if i could do that, i bet i wouldn't have been hit by a car.

Damn those cars sneaking up in your blind-spots! (now, where exactly are
those blind-spots, and what can you do to make sure you know what's in
them, what's leaving them, what's entering them...)

Seriously. Go check out an old disney called "Donald Duck in Mathemagic
Land". It has a superior visual explanation of How to Win At Billiards.
Okay, you're a mathish and physics kind of gal, right? Think: Pool
table. Geometry. Angles. Inertia. Friction. Centers of Mass. Angular
Momentum. You'll work it out, lots of people have. Now all you need to
to is master the finesse of getting your fingers to deliver to the table
what your mind envisions. Practice practice practice. Same thing with
musicianship, or not getting hit by cars.

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 17, 2004, 9:47:44 PM2/17/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>Um, how old is "old"?
>
>
> what kind of old? do you mean too old to shag (not to imply that i have
> all kinds of promiscuous sex -- ewwwwwwwwwwie) or, um, just "old"?
>
> if you read my comments later in that post (which i am not going to
> furnish for you because i suck) over 25 is the age at which i draw a line
> and say, "nope, too old and not h-o-t-t enough to make up for it".

Trust me, I am very very far from "hot". I wasn't hot even when I was,
if you take my meaning. I am an hideously deformed and unattractive pale
person of generally execrable appearance and demeanor, and my social
standing is a bit lower than "leper". Street people rightly despise me.
Beggars are of higher class and the average crackwhore is more
appealing. Sensible people rightly flee screaming from my horrid
countenance and did so even when I was 18.

>
> on the other hand, i use the term 'oldpeople friends' as shorthand to
> distinguish my
> twenty-to-thirty-and-i-think-one-is-forty-something-year-old friends from
> my infantile college freshman friends. so my infant friends know which
> subset of my life i'm referring to, because there is generally very little
> crossover between the two groups.

Well, I find myself in a certain quandary. Most of the people I consider
worthy of conversation are usually 30 or older. Occasionally younger
people surprise me and give good conversation.

>
> i tend to think of age 60 as getting a little bit old.
> and 94 (the age of my employer!) is pretty darn ancient. that's almost
> six times my age.
>
> and you are three times my age? 48?

Not quite. Almost.

> well, i wouldn't say you are in the
> sprightly springtime of your youth, but gosh, mr. grumpypants, i'm more
> worldly and experienced than thinking you are a dinosaur, mmmk?

No, trust me, I'm a dinosaur. Scaly tail given to lashing about when I'm
annoyed or nervous, etc. *lash lash lash*

>
>
>>PS did I mention that I am grumpy and curmudgeonly?
>
>
> clearly you feel as if you haven't mentioned it often enough, so go ahead
> and just say it again. or i'll do it:
>
> mr. klaatu is an old, curmudgeonly, grumpy DORKBRAIN.

Actually, I'm just a mean old grumpy man. And getting grumpier all of
the time.

Have a boring webpage chock full of uninteresting links that go nowhere.

http://www.earthops.net/klaatu/

And feel free to tell me about broken links, and hopefully you will
actually make some use of the science, academic, and reference pages,
instead of just repeatedly downloading pictures of models and
celebreties like most of my site's users.

Endymion

unread,

Feb 17, 2004, 10:23:49 PM2/17/04

to

Crikey, do we need to go hiding the spoons *again*?

Pauline, you can't drink legally because most sixteen year-olds are too
irresponsible to drink responsibly, and no one else can be expected to
distinguish you from them. Yes, that's largely because of the way
they're raised and the way the law is to begin with, and it's stupid,
but it's what the law is. You'll have many years to hang out in clubs
when you're older, so stop complaining. Most of us had to sit at home
and complain about how miserable the life of a teenager was when we were
sixteen, and it sounds like you're at least ahead of the game on that.
Two years seemed like forever then, but now it's the blink of an eye.
It's the way of the world, and it's no more use bitching about it than
trying to stop the sun coming up.

Nightclubs where scary men as old as klaatu or myself are hitting on
sixteen-year-olds are no place for someone your age anyway, no matter
how mature and responsible you think you are. You may be able to handle
it perfectly well, but then again you may not, and the problem is, if
you fuck up, you're in no position to pick up the pieces and move on,
while if one of us fucks up, it's not as big a deal, the consequences
won't affect our lives as drastically. Again, sorry, but you'll have
many, many years to do what you want later, and the fact that you had to
wait a little while won't seem like the torments of the damned when
you're older. Fill the time in between listening to old Cure CDs and
writing angsty poetry. And read a lot. You seem like a very intelligent
person and you should be sure and fill your mind before you burn it out
with all the drugs like the rest of us have.

If you feel like you're missing out on the normal college experience
because you're going to college at such a young age, well, look on the
bright side - you'll have two more years to enjoy your twenties with a
job and *money* instead of living the life of a destitute and starving
student like many of us. And you missed out on the joys of late
adolescence in high school.

Oh, and whatever you do, don't take anything cranky old bastards say too
seriously.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

siani evans

unread,

Feb 18, 2004, 5:29:09 AM2/18/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:

> it has been suggested to me that i _carve_ myself a fake id.

i mutilated my real drivers license into a fake ID for c2, by carving
out minute bits of it, and filling with paint, ink, and nail polish.
then i had to go to the drivers license place and say i lost it (which,
coincidentally, i really did!) to get a new one, but it was okay,
because i had a much better picture on the newer one.

siani evans

unread,

Feb 18, 2004, 5:38:23 AM2/18/04

to

Pauline Law wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, siani evans wrote:

> pittsburgh actually has a fair amount of all-ages venues that are pretty
> rockin'. please tell me how i can convince the trendy indie rock kids to
> go to the decidedly untrendy goth club. wait, i'm also not indie rock
> enough for the indie rockers, because i'm so indie rock i don't fit with
> people who share my musical taste. i'm just *that* indie rock.

well, that's how to convince 'em, yep. :)

> actually, i can go to the club! the only club in pgh is all ages. what i
> can't do, however, is hang out with my friends while at the club, because
> i know all of.. uh. two people who are under 21 who go to the club.

ah. well that's crap, but would be improved by pre-club meet-ups.

>
> people generally don't have 18+ events here because there's no point in
> doing that since the liquor is already physically separated from the
> youngins.

ah. how crap is that? i never really had any chance of going to clubs
and stuff (aside from the saw gallery in ottawa) when i was 16, having
been in a small town. and when i moved down south i had the good luck
of making friends with a girl who knew the doormen at all the good
clubs, so i got in with no trouble underage.

>
> > what is it?
>
> heehee.
> well, hot old men are hot, and not hot old men are, um, not hot.
>
> so if a hot old man comes up to me and starts hit on me i politely, um,
> decline, and say why. and if they continue to do so, then that's ok with
> me!
>
> on the other hand, if a not hot old man comes up to me and continues to
> hit on me after i've done my part to extricate myself from the situation,
> i say: "see that nice man in the booth? do you hear the kind of music he's
> playing? ("aggro/ebm") do you see how tall and big and scary he is?
> well... he doesn't like it when old people hit on me very much."
>
> the underlying theory is that hot old men could get chicks their own age,
> whereas not hot old men can't and therefore need to hit on young girls to
> get laid.

i tended to just assume that anyone who needed to hit on me as a
stranger couldn't get laid and was probably icky, and that if i had
anything in common with them i'd probably have met them at some point.
if they managed to try to talk with me without hitting on me then they
got evaluated purely on the basis of how interesting they were, hotness
adding a few interest points. :)

>
> > except that i would have shagged any of the hot ones had they shown any
> > interest.... but that applied just as well to those my own age.
>
> yes, that's what i was implying! except as i've gotten older i've gotten
> more prudish, so i tend to draw a line at, um, 25 or so. with very special
> exceptions of course...

<grin>

> don't get me wrong -- i like being sixteen! in fact, i hope to turn
> sixteen again. and i *do* have a good time, generally, i just wish i
> didn't live in such an ass-backward country and i could go to 80's night
> (which is 21+).

try spending a summer abroad? might be fun, would at least be a change,
and makes people feel terribly uncultured when you say "oh, when i was
16 i spent the summer in france."

>
> oh! also, on thursday, i'll finally be old enough to hold a driver's
> license in the state of massachusetts. woo-hoo. of course i shall
> continue to take the bus, and maybe get around to building myself a bike
> at some point.

oh, yay, get a drivers license!!! you don't have to be all
environmentally evil, but driving is really fun, and it liberates you to
get to a lot more places. besides which, internal combustion engines
are fascinating, and people who work with cars can be surprisingly
interesting. or you could get a motorcycle, or a scooter, which is even
*more* fun. i still took public transport almost all the time when i
was living in TO, even when i had my van, my hearse, and my vespa, but
having the van and all meant i could go to places that public transit
didn't go. and the hearse was just nifty, because it made large black
men try to chat me up.

Joseph Brenner

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 2:23:47 PM2/19/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> writes:

> Most of us had to sit at home and complain about how
> miserable the life of a teenager was when we were sixteen,
> and it sounds like you're at least ahead of the game on
> that.

This is a point. When I was sixteen I was locked up with
the animals in a Junior High on Long Island, begin very
careful to keep my head down and avoid attracting attention.

On the other hand, far be it from me to tell anyone to stop
whining about anything they feel like whining about.

Joseph Brenner

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 2:43:09 PM2/19/04

to

MC <m...@hack.org> writes:

> Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
> > oh! also, on thursday, i'll finally be old enough to hold a driver's
> > license in the state of massachusetts. woo-hoo.
>

> What's the big deal with a driver's license in the US? In Sweden, this
> is mostly an issue far away from the big cities. In a bigger city, you
> won't need a car or, in fact, be able to get anywhere with a car.
>
> I'm about twice your age, btw, and I don't have a driver's license.

In the states, driver's licenses are so ubiquitous they we
tend to talk about them as though they're synonymous with
"legal proof of identity and age". This of course isn't
really the case... you could use a passport for example.
And California (and I presume other states) will issue you
a basic legal ID if you ask for one.

One way of looking at this situation is that the United
States is in a state of denial about being a free country.
We don't have a national ID card, see? Why would a free
country need to keep track of it's citizens like that?

Maybe you were asking about the proof of age business?
That's another thing that America is a bit nutty about
(and has been getting nuttier). The Reagan era brought us
a drop in the legal drinking age, so now it's 21 nationwide. [1]

The with the 90s, a "zero tolerance" philosphy came into
play, essentially arguing that if you beat people up on
minor bullshit they won't dare try any major transgressions.
So a new fanaticism developed at enforcing the drinking age,
and cops started scrutinizing night clubs really closely. I
haven't seen it done myself, but supposedly they sometimes
do sweeps, prowling around in nightclubs looking for
underaged folks. The way it goes is that ID isn't *that*
hard to forge, and someone who's just slightly under 21 has
a big incentive to get a hold of one. But if an actual cop
(as opposed to a doorman) demands your ID, you're not going
to flash a false one. This is the kind of thing that gets
used as an excuse for shutting down nightclubs, which are
often unpopular with certain segments of the citizenry (who
think it's very important for kids to stay home and play
video games).

[1] Sorry if I keep going on about this, but it still
crottles my greeps and I don't even drink.

The drinking age used to vary from state to state. It is in
fact, set by state law. How did Reagan force a nationwide
drinking law? By threatening to withhold federal highway
funds from any states that refused to comply.

This situation is so far away from the original conception
of the United States, and so obviously in contradiction to
conservative rhetoric about individual freedom, that I
marvel that people aren't rioting in the streets at the
sheer outrageousness.

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 3:29:06 PM2/19/04

to

Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix43.andrew.cmu.edu>...

<...>

> i'm sure the general public will find the story of:
>
> That Girl Who Did Homework A Lot
>
> or
>
> That Girl Who Wrestled With Her Pseudo-VPython-Code A Lot
>
> or
>
> That Girl Who Rode Public Transportation A Lot
>
> absolutely fascinating.
>

Everybody loves the strange and exotic.

I bet most people have never met someone who did homework or rode
public transportation before.

Leave out the wacky coding. Everybody knows a "programmer" from the
dot-com days.

<...>

-F

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 3:58:31 PM2/19/04

to

Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix40.andrew.cmu.edu>...

>
> - what social opportunities do sixteen year olds have?
>
> *this* sixteen year old spends most of her week isolated from the
> off-campus friends anyway, because she spends most of her week in
> class/doing homework/writing stupid vpython code/i hate vpython (oops, off
> on a tangent)/working/mentoring underprivileged youth/doing stuff around
> the radio station (i.e., training for production-clearance, dj'ing,
> directing the calendar). umm... sometimes i go to shows in shitty venues
> with unknown bands. actually, those are usually pretty rad.
>
> i think most sixteen year olds get drunk and smoke pot a lot.
>
> and yes, to be honest, i do imbibe fairly frequently in private with my
> oldpeople friends. not big on illegal substances, though; i don't like the
> vague 'culture' that's associated with them...
>

I see your problem: you have the wrong attitude about drugs.

Think of them this way: people have spent a long time ingesting,
inhaling, and injecting random (and often leathal) chemicals in order
to allow you to feel any way you like at any time you like. These
substances will even allow you to believe that sixteen year olds are
interesting. You need to respect these brave humanitarian scientists
who risked their lives so that you will never need to feel isolated
and alone. These chemicals are responsible for many milestones in
life. Many people owe their their first marriage, their first child
(often related), and their first divorce to drugs.

Please, imbibe as often as possible.

A complete set of instructions for their use is available at Borders.
Just look for the reasonably priced /Uncle Fascinet's Guide to
Chemically Assisted Lifestyles,/ and you will be on the well road to a
modern, streamlined happiness.

<...>

>
> - and when you say "she's too young for you", do you mean too young for
> friendship or for a relationship? (re: jennie)
>
> four words:
> THE DIRTY OLD MEN.
>

Drugs will make us look better, too.

<...>

Uncle Fascinet

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 6:12:45 PM2/19/04

to

Joseph Brenner wrote:
> MC <m...@hack.org> writes:
>
>
>>Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>
>>>oh! also, on thursday, i'll finally be old enough to hold a driver's
>>>license in the state of massachusetts. woo-hoo.
>>
>>What's the big deal with a driver's license in the US? In Sweden, this
>>is mostly an issue far away from the big cities. In a bigger city, you
>>won't need a car or, in fact, be able to get anywhere with a car.
>>
>>I'm about twice your age, btw, and I don't have a driver's license.

Your greeps are crottled, you say? But the gostak distims the doshes!
The doshes are, in fact, distimmed bu the gostak! So uncrottle your
greeps, however that is done, man!

There are spiffy little devices, which should be required of employers,
which doormen can use in this area (DC, probably elsewhere) which can
call out and verify DLs by number and expiration date, etc. This is
moving us rather closer to the day when we finally _do_ get our
long-overdue National-ID.

However, about the whole thing with the DL: we in the States, and
presumably elsewhere in Western culture, have few if any real Tests of
Adulthood or Rites of Passage. Getting the Driver's Permit was one of
the very few things almost anyone could try for, but which you stood a
real chance of failing, though given enough persistence and the ability
to see, almost anyone could eventually achieve.

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 19, 2004, 6:14:43 PM2/19/04

to

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet wrote:
> Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix40.andrew.cmu.edu>...

>>four words:
>>THE DIRTY OLD MEN.
>>
>
>
> Drugs will make us look better, too.

Didn't I tell you to not let your supervisor make your coffee for you?

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 5:12:59 AM2/20/04

to

"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message
news:403542ED...@earthops.net...

> However, about the whole thing with the DL: we in the States, and
> presumably elsewhere in Western culture, have few if any real Tests of
> Adulthood or Rites of Passage.

As you say setting this number for adulthood is rather an amusing
exercise in logic especially me seeing this from the UK.
In the UK you get all[1] these Rites of Passage between 16 & 18.
From sex, to drinking to smoking to being employed to kill people
via armed forces. It has always surprised and amazed me that
the drinking law is 21 in the states, How come US citizens
can be considered old enough to be trained as killers, have sex,
drive cars and vote, but aren't adult enough to drink alcohol.

[1] Well you can't legally buy a gun at any age without a special licence
IIRC.

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 10:06:52 AM2/20/04

to

I myself have always thought this to be a trifle confusing. Remember, if
you will, that the original age of majority to marry or to vote was 21
for males and 18 for females (once they got the vote, that is).
Apparently they once decided that it wasn't fair for the females to get
three extra years of voting. So they made the voting age 21. Then, at
some point during the Vietnam Era, the exact same argument was made, as
to how could one be old enough to be drafted into the military service,
and not be old enough to vote against it. So, we got a Constitutional
Amendment -- one of the most speedily ratified -- lowering the voting
age to 18. At the same time, the drinking age (for beer and wine in all
cases where not locally outlawed) was lowered to 18. As time went on, it
developed that this wasn't the best idea in a country where everyone
drives a huge hulking metal deathbox with 8-millions horsepower. Various
groups pressed it into various legislatures on the twin arguments of
"how can our kiddies concentrate on college if they're all hung-over"
and "they're just not responsible enough to not kill everyone in their
paths" and the drinking age was raised again.

>
>
> [1] Well you can't legally buy a gun at any age without a special licence
> IIRC.
>
>

Endymion

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 12:40:02 PM2/20/04

to

"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote

> However, about the whole thing with the DL: we in the States, and

> presumably elsewhere in Western culture, have few if any real Tests of
> Adulthood or Rites of Passage.

At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that each
student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting at least
once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").

Of course the lethal dose for alcohol is entirely dependent on body
weight - and for someone weighing 100 pounds or less, 26-odd units of
alcohol over, say, 6-8 hours, even assuming they've vomited a third of
it up before it was fully absorbed, is more than enough to get them into
the Twilight Zone. So the larger guys usually just end up sick as a dog
for a while, the more average-sized folks at worst end up in the
infirmary or even the ER, but hardly a year goes by when at least one
95-pound, 21-year-old girl isn't sent home in a pine box.

And we won't get into the suburban garage tests of gasoline-huffing, or
of keeping the tussin down long enough for the Robo-trip to start.

I'd say we have few *proper* Tests of Adulthood or Rites of Passage.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com
Fu**ing bats...

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 2:59:52 PM2/20/04

to

Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<4036228C...@earthops.net>...

The reason that the drinking age was increased to twenty-one is as
simple as it is sensible. I've probably told you this before.

It's already been noted that this was a Reagan-era policy. The
drinking age was raised in Colorado in 1987, for example. You'll
notice that this is shortly after the majority of high school seniors
were college-bound. I believe these facts are not circumstancial.

Parents, now expected to care for children until the 22nd or 23rd
birthday instead of the 15th, were justifiably concerned about their
welfare.

And so, the drinking age was raised so that when their children were
old enough to drink, they were ensconced in a state university. Why
it would be important to learn to drink at a state university may not
be readily apparent.

Certainly, since children don't get much experience drinking in
American high schools, they need mentors, and at college mentors
abound. Communists, frat brothers, and professors are all willing to
show an underclassman how to imbibe, especially one who's buying.
However, this was not the reason it was prudent to raise the drinking
age.

Remember that major state colleges are located in two sorts of places.
The first is the small university town, preferably with an
imaginative name like State College or College Station, populated
almost exclusively by students and professors. The other is the state
capital, populated mainly by students, politicians and government
employees. This is why drinking has been delayed for three years.

Now that we have passed that threshold where enouch children are
shipped out of the state to make a difference, we protect parents,
younger children and other members of the community by letting college
students learn to drink and drive where they won't hurt anyone
important.

Due to natural selection, we know that when our children are
reintegrated into human society they won't endanger it.

-F

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 6:06:33 PM2/20/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<c15gqs$k1u$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...

> "Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote
>
> > However, about the whole thing with the DL: we in the States, and
> > presumably elsewhere in Western culture, have few if any real Tests of
> > Adulthood or Rites of Passage.
>
> At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that each
> student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting at least
> once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").
>
> Of course the lethal dose for alcohol is entirely dependent on body
> weight - and for someone weighing 100 pounds or less, 26-odd units of
> alcohol over, say, 6-8 hours, even assuming they've vomited a third of
> it up before it was fully absorbed, is more than enough to get them into
> the Twilight Zone. So the larger guys usually just end up sick as a dog
> for a while, the more average-sized folks at worst end up in the
> infirmary or even the ER, but hardly a year goes by when at least one
> 95-pound, 21-year-old girl isn't sent home in a pine box.
>

If this is true, why do I have such a hard time getting kids to sit in
a dumpster and drink themselves to death? I'm happy to pay, of
course, as long as I get to watch.

>
> And we won't get into the suburban garage tests of gasoline-huffing, or
> of keeping the tussin down long enough for the Robo-trip to start.
>
> I'd say we have few *proper* Tests of Adulthood or Rites of Passage.
>

Oh, come on.

What proper rite of passage isn't potentially lethal?

-F

Endymion

unread,

Feb 20, 2004, 8:30:37 PM2/20/04

to

"HRH Fascinet" <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote

> If this is true, why do I have such a hard time getting kids to sit in
> a dumpster and drink themselves to death?

You're not the one they're trying to impress.

> > I'd say we have few *proper* Tests of Adulthood or Rites of Passage.
>
> Oh, come on.
>
> What proper rite of passage isn't potentially lethal?

The problem isn't the lethality of the ones we have. It's that they
leave the subjects no wiser or better socialized than they were
beforehand, thus missing the whole point of the exercise.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

James Donovan

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Feb 21, 2004, 12:26:49 AM2/21/04

to

In article <c14mjc$dkb$1...@beta.qmul.ac.uk>,
"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote:

I was born/raised/live in the US, and I'm baffled.
I was raised in a Catholic family which gave me wine at the dinner table
since I was 12. I learned from pre-teen years, responsiblity with
alchohol. And when 16, I was given a motor-vehicle capable of
destroying, not only my liver/kidneys, but killing other motorists, or
pedestrians, but I still couldn't decide whether or not Clinton would be
a better leader for the country than Dole (ok... I have to make
split-second decison, whether or not to turn someone into roadkill, but
can't vote for pres, with months to do research on the matter).
At 18, I could get a rifle, which would, statistically kill fewer people
than 16-18 y/o drivers, and join the military to legally kill
foreigners, but to /buy/ booze is a no-no.
At 21, I finally am free from dealing with /most/ gov'mint bullshit, but
still have problems renting a car from someone else besides "Rent a
Wreck", despite the fact that I can now own a handgun, and can buy beer
legally, the combination of the two, of course, being dangerous, if not
deadly.
America was settled/founded by Puritans...

Weapons of killing, whether rifles/shotguns, or cars, or killing in
the name of one's country are OK, but beer is not. This system is too
fucked-up to continue, and it must change. I don't care if you're
conservative, or liberal, but drinking is the /least/ of the problems
with this country's young. The current system is fucked-up, and we have
too many religious fundies preventing real change.

>
> [1] Well you can't legally buy a gun at any age without a special licence
> IIRC.

IIRC, if you live in the country, guns are OK, if they're not
handguns... Farmers have to be able to off pests, so, insofar as I
recall, shotguns/rifles are fine for farmers/rural-dwellars... it's
those who live in cities who are fucked by the UK's gun laws.

>
>

--
Regards,
James

Edvamp

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 3:08:18 AM2/21/04

to

>Most of us had to sit at home
>and complain about how miserable the life of a teenager was when we were
>sixteen

And we didn't have the internet.

>Nightclubs where scary men as old as klaatu or myself are hitting on
>sixteen-year-olds are no place for someone your age anyway

Yeah, it is no fun if they are local too. We should have to go to Singapore
like other businessmen. Seems more exotic that way.

>Oh, and whatever you do, don't take anything cranky old bastards say too
>seriously.

I hate that women are starting out with the clubbing, drinking, etc. so early
anyways. By the time they are old enough for me they have been burned out of
their trying anything experimental phase.

Ever and Always
Edvamp
If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.
www.insidecx.com

MC

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 5:52:25 AM2/21/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> writes:

> At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that
> each student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting
> at least once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").

What's a "fifth"? How much is it? I think it's fairly common for
teenagers in the North of Sweden to drink about 37.5 cl of 40% alcohol
(what you call 80 proof, I believe) every friday or saturday, for
instance.

> And we won't get into the suburban garage tests of gasoline-huffing

Tests? We used to sniff gas and glue in plastic bags when I was a
teenager, but that was no test. It was a way to get away from it all.

--
MC, http://hack.org/mc/

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 9:28:42 AM2/21/04

to

James Donovan wrote:
> In article <c14mjc$dkb$1...@beta.qmul.ac.uk>,
> "Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote:
>
>
>>"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message
>>news:403542ED...@earthops.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>>However, about the whole thing with the DL: we in the States, and
>>>presumably elsewhere in Western culture, have few if any real Tests of
>>>Adulthood or Rites of Passage.
>>
>>As you say setting this number for adulthood is rather an amusing
>>exercise in logic especially me seeing this from the UK.
>>In the UK you get all[1] these Rites of Passage between 16 & 18.
>>From sex, to drinking to smoking to being employed to kill people
>>via armed forces. It has always surprised and amazed me that
>>the drinking law is 21 in the states, How come US citizens
>>can be considered old enough to be trained as killers, have sex,
>>drive cars and vote, but aren't adult enough to drink alcohol.
>>

> America was settled/founded by Puritans...

Thank goodness for the German immigrants and their Bohemian ways, or
we'd still have Prohibition!

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 9:32:05 AM2/21/04

to

MC wrote:
> "Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>
>>At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that
>>each student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting
>>at least once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").
>
>
> What's a "fifth"? How much is it? I think it's fairly common for
> teenagers in the North of Sweden to drink about 37.5 cl of 40% alcohol
> (what you call 80 proof, I believe) every friday or saturday, for
> instance.

"A fifth" is one-fifth of a gallon, so it's a bit less than a liter.

alt.gothic OG

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 1:43:36 PM2/21/04

to

I was commenting on the fact that you cannot attend the social events
of your mental age group due to your physical age limitations. I was
stating that you should enjoy what you are able to do now and don't
worry about the things you can't do.

Also, keep in mind, that unless you find a cure for cancer or solve
world hunger, all the time you spent reading a boring physics book on
a Friday night while you could have been going out and enjoying your
youth (however stupid it might seem) would be an utter waste. You will
die old and useless and not have enjoyed the experiences of being
young and stupid. I don't intend to argue and prove this point, but,
if you really must insist, I can solicit testimonials from
no-longer-active hardc0re 0ld sk00l a.g.'ers that have posted here
before you even had breasts.

Regards...

Pauline Law <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.58-035....@unix40.andrew.cmu.edu>...

> i don't have the time reply to each person individually, so i'm going to
> break this down categorically:
>
>
> - why are you in a rush to grow up? (in so many words from alt.gothic OG)
>
> i'm really not. please! this august, i hope to turn sixteen again.
>
> this is a very unhelpful attitude to take when discussing my youth --
> please understand, i am, for all intents and purposes, an adult. just not
> legally recognized as such, and mostly not socially recognized as such
> (except for those people who spend a handful of hours with me every few
> weeks or so). i don't intend to argue and prove this point (i wonder how
> one would do this in an objective fashion?) but if you really must insist,
> i can solicit testimonials from no-longer-active hardc0re 0ld sk00l
> a.g.'ers with n3t.dicks at least as big as yours.
>
>
> pauline

siani evans

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Feb 21, 2004, 5:16:34 PM2/21/04

to

piggybacking because i never got Endymion's message

> "Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >

> > Of course the lethal dose for alcohol is entirely dependent on body
> > weight - and for someone weighing 100 pounds or less, 26-odd units of
> > alcohol over, say, 6-8 hours, even assuming they've vomited a third of
> > it up before it was fully absorbed, is more than enough to get them into
> > the Twilight Zone. So the larger guys usually just end up sick as a dog
> > for a while, the more average-sized folks at worst end up in the
> > infirmary or even the ER, but hardly a year goes by when at least one
> > 95-pound, 21-year-old girl isn't sent home in a pine box.

i made myself extremely unwell with alchohol when i was thinner (it got
to be the day after the day after, and i still couldn't keep water down
at dinner time, and i started thinking i ought to cut back), and one of
my friends ended up in hospital for a few days with it when we were in
HS. alcohol poisoning is not that tricky to incur.

Endymion

unread,

Feb 21, 2004, 7:44:20 PM2/21/04

to

"alt.gothic OG" <ags...@yahoo.com> wrote

> Also, keep in mind, that unless you find a cure for cancer or solve
> world hunger, all the time you spent reading a boring physics book on
> a Friday night while you could have been going out and enjoying your
> youth (however stupid it might seem) would be an utter waste.

There's a point of diminishing returns either way. All that time you sent
chasing yet more mindless fun, chemical abuse, and cheap flings will seem
awfully pointless when you're asking "Would you like fries with that, sir?"
at age 47.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Joseph Brenner

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Feb 21, 2004, 9:20:21 PM2/21/04

to

edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) writes:

> I hate that women are starting out with the clubbing, drinking, etc. so early
> anyways. By the time they are old enough for me they have been burned out of
> their trying anything experimental phase.

Maybe you need to lower your sights.

Edvamp

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Feb 21, 2004, 9:42:07 PM2/21/04

to

>Joseph Brenner:

>Maybe you need to lower your sights.

You mean kneecap them so they can't run away? A bit drastic, I don't think
we're at that point yet.

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 22, 2004, 8:14:59 AM2/22/04

to

Speaking as someone who can't even get hired for McDonalds, at age 47, I
take that rather personally.

Not that you're wrong, I just resent being used as an example, dammit.

The Emperor Penguin

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Feb 22, 2004, 12:34:44 PM2/22/04

to

Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote

> MC wrote:
> > "Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >>At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that
> >>each student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting
> >>at least once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").
> >
> >
> > What's a "fifth"? How much is it? I think it's fairly common for
> > teenagers in the North of Sweden to drink about 37.5 cl of 40% alcohol
> > (what you call 80 proof, I believe) every friday or saturday, for
> > instance.
>
>
> "A fifth" is one-fifth of a gallon, so it's a bit less than a liter.

Endymion refers elsewhere in the original post to 26 units. 80+
proof is equivalent to 40% b.v., I have discovered. So assuming a
unit = 1 x 25 ml measure of 40% spirits, 26 units would be 65 cl., or
a bit less than a bottle.

Since klaatu provided the above extra information, I did a conversion
and stuff and 3.875 litres over 5 comes out to 75.7 cl. In other
words, pretty much exactly a bottle.

Which left me a little underwhelmed.

~~~
The Emperor Penguin

Endymion

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Feb 22, 2004, 3:34:57 PM2/22/04

to

"The Emperor Penguin" <emperor...@virgin.net> wrote

> Since klaatu provided the above extra information, I did a conversion
> and stuff and 3.875 litres over 5 comes out to 75.7 cl. In other
> words, pretty much exactly a bottle.
>
> Which left me a little underwhelmed.

Don't know where you folks have been - a fifth was the traditional unit of
measure in the English (now American) system for a bottle of hard liquor for
who knows how long, and yes, it is one-fifth of a gallon or 75.7 cl. (Liquor
bottles in the US are usually 750 ml now, but they're still referred to in
casual conversation as "fifths" to distinguish them from liter or 1.5 liter
bottles.)

If that amount of 40% ethanol leaves you "underwhelmed", either you are a
very, very large man or your liver is the size of a horse's. Keep in mind I
was discussing the effects when women under 45 kilos' body weight tried to
drink such an amount.

Half that amount seems a more reasonable intake for a good drunk - although
I understand that Scandinavia has a worse problem with alcoholism than does
most of Europe.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 22, 2004, 3:46:55 PM2/22/04

to

Well, the point is less whether or not you'd be underwhelmed or not, but
whether a 43-kg waif of a girl would be overwhelmed.

A couple of years ago, some folks were greeted one cheery morning with
the sight of some guy sitting out in front of the frat house in a
lounger, apparently asleep. The next morning, he hadn't moved. The
police were called, then the coroner. All of the town was abuzz with
speculation as to "no visible signs of trauma" and then the report came
back in, alcohol poisoning. As in, drunk to the point where the heart
stopped working, beyond drunk to the point where one vomits and inhales
and doesn't notice. Closer investigation determined that the entire frat
and all of its friends were hung-over near to death's door. Apparently
this one guy was a pledge for the frat, and cheerfully guzzled a
half-gallon of vodka, walked outside and sat down in the chair. Everyone
else got too drunk to even check on him. Seems the poor bastard sat
down, buzzed out, and died with enough alcohol in him so that when his
sphincters relaxed, his bowels had been sterilized and his shit didn't
stink. Thus the nearly 36 hours before anyone even noticed he was dead.

Perilously close to GAF, that.

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 22, 2004, 7:04:22 PM2/22/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<c16cd8$tbj$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...

So, what would you consider to be a good rite of passage?

Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?

Shows good woodsmanship and teaches the kid something important at the
same time.

Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.

Or, would you prefer something like the tests Japanese and French
children are subjected to when they're sixteen? The problem is, is
that these sorts of tests Certainly, the children learn quite a bit
when exposed to these pressures, but I doubt that they really learn
anything more than that they really, really hate history and
mathematics. Certainly, wisdom isn't found in late nights of
cramming.

I'd also prefer to stay away from such a highly meritocratic system.

The "rites of passage" that were included earlier in the thread don't
make anyone wiser, more socialized, or what-not. They're just tokens

Would you prefer we all go door to door like the Jehovah's Witnesses?
That kind of rite of passage would make us wiser and teach us how to
interact in certain situations, at least.

But exactly how valuable would it be?

-F

xtrafi...@yahoo.com

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Feb 22, 2004, 7:15:51 PM2/22/04

to

fUCK YOU
xtrafi...@yahoo.com

On 22 Feb 2004 16:04:22 -0800, fasc...@mad.scientist.com (HRH

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 22, 2004, 7:33:08 PM2/22/04

to

Someone ( xtrafi...@yahoo.com ) said:

>
> fUCK YOU
>
>

Thank you.

-F

Pauline Law

unread,

Feb 22, 2004, 8:27:53 PM2/22/04

to

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, xtrafi...@yahoo.com wrote:

> fUCK YOU

fuck your mom!
fuck your face!
fuck, you're from outer space!

pauline

--

"I'm getting really scary images. Sardonic, pretentious, and in pink
sneaks. It's almost 1950s in its subversive wholesomeness" -- klaatu.

post wednesdays 9-10pm
wrct88.3fm http://wrct.org/

Endymion

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Feb 23, 2004, 2:19:37 AM2/23/04

to

"Pauline Law" <pl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, xtrafi...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > fUCK YOU
>
> fuck your mom!

Oh dear. We *are* going to have another spoon problem around here, aren't
we?

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com
Staying away from everyone's mom!

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 23, 2004, 8:47:44 AM2/23/04

to

"Joseph Brenner" <do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:m3k72fz...@crack.nonagon.org...

But just how much is one expected to lower them :)

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

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Feb 23, 2004, 9:02:45 AM2/23/04

to

"xtrafi...@yahoo.com" <xtrafi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1jhi30lgl2udkje1g...@4ax.com>...

Okay, yeah, this has the wrong tone, but I am interested: instead of
generalities, what kind of examples of "rites of passage" can you give
that make people wiser and better socialized?

-F

Whisky-Dave

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Feb 23, 2004, 8:55:49 AM2/23/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:Rn8_b.14811$W74....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> I understand that Scandinavia has a worse problem with alcoholism than
does
> most of Europe.
>

What's the latest story on their supermarket lager, that's below 2%
and is like our standard cans shandy but has an additive to make you throw
up
before getting seriously pissed. There was a problem with these 'drunks'
throwing up gallons of liquid on the metro and on the streets in the mid
80s.
Isn't the drinking legal age 21 too

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 23, 2004, 9:25:23 AM2/23/04

to

"HRH Fascinet" <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote in message
news:5df208ec.04022...@posting.google.com...

>
> So, what would you consider to be a good rite of passage?

A simple basic test to show some sense of awareness of the
path they are going to take.

>
> Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?

Might work, but here in London that might take them too long unless
they live in regents part.

> Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.

Not even naked with bare faced cheeks.

> Or, would you prefer something like the tests Japanese and French
> children are subjected to when they're sixteen?

I don't think france has a drink problem does it, but maybe it's
got something to do with them drinking young from the age of
under 12, i.e they aren't considered to stupid and inexperienced
at drinking so are banned untuil they reach 21 to try it.

>The problem is, is
> that these sorts of tests Certainly, the children learn quite a bit
> when exposed to these pressures, but I doubt that they really learn
> anything more than that they really, really hate history and
> mathematics. Certainly, wisdom isn't found in late nights of
> cramming.

It's found via an interested.

> But exactly how valuable would it be?

As valuable as their interest.

alt.gothic OG

unread,

Feb 23, 2004, 10:08:32 AM2/23/04

to

Good point. However, if you're Happy serving people a Meal at a local
fast food establishment, then more power to you.

Regards...

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<EXSZb.13956$W74....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 23, 2004, 11:14:04 AM2/23/04

to

HRH Fascinet wrote:
> "Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<c16cd8$tbj$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...
>
>>"HRH Fascinet" <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>If this is true, why do I have such a hard time getting kids to sit in
>>>a dumpster and drink themselves to death?
>>
>>You're not the one they're trying to impress.
>>
>>
>>>>I'd say we have few *proper* Tests of Adulthood or Rites of Passage.
>>>
>>>Oh, come on.
>>>
>>>What proper rite of passage isn't potentially lethal?
>>
>>The problem isn't the lethality of the ones we have. It's that they
>>leave the subjects no wiser or better socialized than they were
>>beforehand, thus missing the whole point of the exercise.
>>
>
>
> So, what would you consider to be a good rite of passage?

Ah, Alexei Panshin's excellent little SF novel "Rite of Passage" might
give you some ideas.

>
> Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?
>
> Shows good woodsmanship and teaches the kid something important at the
> same time.
>
> Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.

Actually, a sort of Eagle Scout type survival test might not be too bad.
Serving in the military does remain one of the few semi-traditional
Rites of Passage, though of course it's not universal and I wouldn't
recommend that it should be, "Starship Troopers" notwithstanding.

>
> Or, would you prefer something like the tests Japanese and French
> children are subjected to when they're sixteen? The problem is, is
> that these sorts of tests Certainly, the children learn quite a bit
> when exposed to these pressures, but I doubt that they really learn
> anything more than that they really, really hate history and
> mathematics. Certainly, wisdom isn't found in late nights of
> cramming.
>
> I'd also prefer to stay away from such a highly meritocratic system.
>
> The "rites of passage" that were included earlier in the thread don't
> make anyone wiser, more socialized, or what-not. They're just tokens
>
> Would you prefer we all go door to door like the Jehovah's Witnesses?
> That kind of rite of passage would make us wiser and teach us how to
> interact in certain situations, at least.
>
> But exactly how valuable would it be?

I'm suspecting that the Amish "rumspringa" is sort of the way to go, for
a lot of youngsters. Not so much of a "get off of the farm and party"
type of thing, more of a "go take a look at some part of the world
that's not intimately familiar to you" approach.

Joseph Brenner

unread,

Feb 23, 2004, 2:41:01 PM2/23/04

to

"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> writes:

> "Joseph Brenner" <do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:

> > edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) writes:
> >
> > > I hate that women are starting out with the clubbing,
> > > drinking, etc. so early anyways. By the time they are
> > > old enough for me they have been burned
> > >

> > > their trying anything experimental phase.
> >
> > Maybe you need to lower your sights.
>
> But just how much is one expected to lower them :)

Well, I wasn't thinking about knee-caps.

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 9:52:31 AM2/24/04

to

Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403A26CC...@earthops.net>...

> >
> > Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?
> >
> > Shows good woodsmanship and teaches the kid something important at the
> > same time.
> >
> > Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.
>
> Actually, a sort of Eagle Scout type survival test might not be too bad.

A Recon survival test would be better.

We do want there to be a substantial attrition rate.

But is that what you're really looking for? It's more just a kind of
marker for accumulated and refined skills. As such, it doesn't
involve a learning experience at all, nor a socializing one. Not
quite what it sounded like Bruce was talking about.

These other two ideas, however, seem to have merit.

>
> Serving in the military does remain one of the few semi-traditional
> Rites of Passage, though of course it's not universal and I wouldn't
> recommend that it should be, "Starship Troopers" notwithstanding.
>

> <...>

>
> I'm suspecting that the Amish "rumspringa" is sort of the way to go, for
> a lot of youngsters. Not so much of a "get off of the farm and party"
> type of thing, more of a "go take a look at some part of the world
> that's not intimately familiar to you" approach.
>

From the time I was in the service, I don't think I gained any thing
approximating wisdom. And I think no one would call me well
socialized in any sense of the term.

That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.

Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.

The rumspringa thing looks like the sort adventure that has some
people wax poetic about college (and sometimes, their first car).
About how much they learned when being sent to a far away town with
nothing but daddy's credit card to support their habit.

The trial it must be.

Certainly, the wisdom accumulated during this time is apparent in the
way every frat brother acts and the socialization can be found in
every computer science department.

-F

siani evans

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 2:50:06 PM2/24/04

to

indeed. but there's plenty of that that can be done while getting a B
average if you're reasonably bright.

siani (getting A's is a waste of time - no one will ever care whether
you got 75% or 85% once you leave school.)

MC

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 2:51:27 PM2/24/04

to

"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> writes:

> What's the latest story on their supermarket lager, that's below 2%
> and is like our standard cans shandy but has an additive to make you
> throw up before getting seriously pissed.

It's true that the beer sold in supermarkets in Sweden is regulated at
2.2%, 2.8% and 3.5%.

There are, however, no additives in them.

> Isn't the drinking legal age 21 too

I think you may be thinking about the state monopoly. To buy something
at the state monopoly in Sweden you have to be 20 years of age. In a
restaurant or a pub, however, the legal age is 18.

It is, however, not illegal to drink before that. There is no illegal
drinking age --- it is just illegal to /buy/ alcohol before 18 (in
pubs) or 20 (shops), not to drink or to have it lying around in your
home.

If you consider Denmark to be Scandinavia, I seem to recall that you
have to be 18 to be served alcohol in a pub or restaurant, just like
Sweden, but you are allowed to buy alcohol at 16. At least this was
the case when I was visiting Denmark in way back in high school.

I don't know about Norway.

--
MC, http://hack.org/mc/

HRH Fascinet

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 3:10:44 PM2/24/04

to

ags...@yahoo.com (alt.gothic OG) wrote in message news:<89b0dc3b.04022...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Also, keep in mind, that unless you find a cure for cancer or solve
> world hunger, all the time you spent reading a boring physics book on
> a Friday night while you could have been going out and enjoying your
> youth (however stupid it might seem) would be an utter waste.
>

A copy of Van Vleck, some cheese and a bottle of wine.

Have you no sense of romance, man?

-F

The Emperor Penguin

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 3:18:30 PM2/24/04

to

Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote
> The Emperor Penguin wrote:
> > Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote
> >
> >>MC wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>>At the Flagship University here in town there's a tradition that
> >>>>each student must drink a fifth of 80+ proof liquor at one sitting
> >>>>at least once before graduation (the "fourth-year fifth").
> >>>
> >>>What's a "fifth"? How much is it? I think it's fairly common for
> >>>teenagers in the North of Sweden to drink about 37.5 cl of 40% alcohol
> >>>(what you call 80 proof, I believe) every friday or saturday, for
> >>>instance.
> >>
> >>"A fifth" is one-fifth of a gallon, so it's a bit less than a liter.
> >

< snip>

> > pretty much exactly a bottle.
> >
> > Which left me a little underwhelmed.
>
> Well, the point is less whether or not you'd be underwhelmed or not, but
> whether a 43-kg waif of a girl would be overwhelmed.

Whose point? I was responding to the quoted text, trimming that which
was irrelevant. MC didn't ask about 43 kg waifs, he asked about
fifths.

To make myself clear, being unfamiliar with the units in question, I
had the impression from Endymion's post that either 80+ proof was more
alcoholic than normal, or that a fifth was a rather larger amount than
it turned out to be.

Thus when I discovered that that it was only a perfectly ordinary
bottle of perfectly ordinary strength, I was less impressed.

When one further considers that for many years, I myself weighed a
consistent 47 kg, and could drink over half this amount and still walk
home, remember the whole evening, and have sufficient presence of mind
remaining to drink a pint of water before going to bed, I was less
impressed.

When, as MC pointed out that teenagers in the north of Sweden drink
half a bottle on a weekly basis, I could quite easily believe him,
given that teenagers from round these parts do likewise, which also
made the quantities involved seem less impressive.

Consider too that the UK has about the worst figures in the world for
binge drinking, yet 21 year old, 43 kg waifs rarely drink themselves
to death here-abouts. Apparently, either 43 kg waifs are too rare to
be statistically noticable, or they can actually handle this kind of
quantity of alcohol, or they just don't drink that much, despite, as I
say, binge drinking being the cultural norm. Which led me to suspect,
based on personal knowledge and experience, that perhaps someone
killing themselves in this manner on an annual basis and within such a
small community might be a trifle exaggerated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that knowledge applicable here will
not necessarily apply to the college community of which Endymion
speaks. I'm well aware of the difference between half a bottle and a
full bottle, and I'm well aware that just because I can handle the
former doesn't mean I could handle the latter, though I've never been
stupid enough to try testing this point. I'm well aware that just
because a 47 kg male can drink that much doesn't mean a 43 kg female
could, nor would I be unimpressed if they did. Quite the reverse. A
43 kg female drinking a full bottle of spirits simply as part of some
kind of social ritual would be highly impressive in its stupidity, if
for no other reason. *Anyone* inflicting this kind of damage on their
body for no other reason than tradition is being really quite stupid.

A bottle of whisky/whiskey/vodka/gin/whatever is a lot to be putting
away. No argument there. But in absolute terms, proving how hard you
are by drinking a bottle of spirits still leaves me a little

siani evans

unread,

Feb 24, 2004, 6:05:29 PM2/24/04

to

The Emperor Penguin wrote:

> Consider too that the UK has about the worst figures in the world for
> binge drinking, yet 21 year old, 43 kg waifs rarely drink themselves
> to death here-abouts. Apparently, either 43 kg waifs are too rare to
> be statistically noticable, or they can actually handle this kind of
> quantity of alcohol, or they just don't drink that much, despite, as I
> say, binge drinking being the cultural norm. Which led me to suspect,

i think your first guess was bang on the money. british women are far
more inclined towards a rubenesque build.

siani (that was a rewrite - my first version said "british chicks are
fat" but some of them aren't. it's just that an awfully large
proportion of them are.)

Dag

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 4:48:09 AM2/25/04

to

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:51:27 +0100, MC <m...@hack.org> wrote:

> I don't know about Norway.

18 to buy alcohol up to 21% abv, 20 to buy anything stronger. No
distinction between drinking at pub or buying.

Dag

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 7:28:55 AM2/25/04

to

HRH Fascinet wrote:
> Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403A26CC...@earthops.net>...
>
>
>>>Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?
>>>
>>>Shows good woodsmanship and teaches the kid something important at the
>>>same time.
>>>
>>>Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.
>>
>>Actually, a sort of Eagle Scout type survival test might not be too bad.
>
>
>
> A Recon survival test would be better.
>
> We do want there to be a substantial attrition rate.

Ah, but do they get Recon training before you drop them off in some
steaming jungle surrounded by searing deserts hemmed in by glacial peaks?

>
> But is that what you're really looking for? It's more just a kind of
> marker for accumulated and refined skills. As such, it doesn't
> involve a learning experience at all, nor a socializing one. Not
> quite what it sounded like Bruce was talking about.
>
> These other two ideas, however, seem to have merit.

What, with the bears?

>>Serving in the military does remain one of the few semi-traditional
>>Rites of Passage, though of course it's not universal and I wouldn't
>>recommend that it should be, "Starship Troopers" notwithstanding.
>>
>> <...>
>>
>>I'm suspecting that the Amish "rumspringa" is sort of the way to go, for
>>a lot of youngsters. Not so much of a "get off of the farm and party"
>>type of thing, more of a "go take a look at some part of the world
>>that's not intimately familiar to you" approach.
>>
>
>
> From the time I was in the service, I don't think I gained any thing
> approximating wisdom. And I think no one would call me well
> socialized in any sense of the term.

But how would you have turned out if you hadn't been in the service?

>
> That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
> system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
> Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
>
> Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.

Oopsies, there goes _my_ vote. Can I cheat and solve with tabulation, or
plug stuff into the "generic quadratic solving equation", or do I
actually have to do algebra in my head?

> The rumspringa thing looks like the sort adventure that has some
> people wax poetic about college (and sometimes, their first car).
> About how much they learned when being sent to a far away town with
> nothing but daddy's credit card to support their habit.
>
> The trial it must be.

Heh. "Amish kids have the best parties." Though actually from watching
that documentary "The Devil's Playground" I got the impression that when
they left the farm they generally didn't get far from home and tended to
wind up in crappy trailers in the next town over where they are promptly
exploited into making more crappy trailers, getting paid just enough to
fund forays into substance abuse and 3rd-rate pr0n mags.

Though actually this could easily be mistaken for the Frat Experience,
just with less pay when you're done with it, and a family that actually
wants you to come back home.

> Certainly, the wisdom accumulated during this time is apparent in the
> way every frat brother acts and the socialization can be found in
> every computer science department.

I'm probably not the first to think of it, but can you imagine a Frat of
Computer-Science/Engineering students?

Actually, that would be Phi Kappa Tau at the U of M. I was going to say
"not sure how I escaped with my mind and soul intact" but now that I
think back on it, that would be a complete lie.

The Emperor Penguin

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 1:47:16 PM2/25/04

to

siani evans <si...@velvet.net> wrote

> The Emperor Penguin wrote:
>
> > Consider too that the UK has about the worst figures in the world for
> > binge drinking, yet 21 year old, 43 kg waifs rarely drink themselves
> > to death here-abouts. Apparently, either 43 kg waifs are too rare to
> > be statistically noticable, or they can actually handle this kind of
> > quantity of alcohol, or they just don't drink that much, despite, as I
> > say, binge drinking being the cultural norm. Which led me to suspect,
>
> i think your first guess was bang on the money. british women are far
> more inclined towards a rubenesque build.

Very delicately put. I kinda suspected this myself.

I have to say, though, that if there are a significant proportion of
young women in the sample set who are 43 kg/95 lb/7 st or less, then
that is a deeply unhealthy population. Especially given that the
average USian is taller than the average UKer, regardless of gender.
You'd have to be 4'10"/147 cm or less for this to be a healthy weight.
Which is about your hight isn't it, Siani?

~~~
The Emperor Penguin

Dag

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 2:17:26 PM2/25/04

to

On 24 Feb 2004 06:52:31 -0800, HRH Fascinet <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
>
> That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
> system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
> Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
>
> Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.

Which would prove what? solving quadratic equations simply show
that you have blindly memorized some random formula in highshool
and can regurgitate at will and add a couple of numbers. Wow!
Truly the skills one should test to decide if one is capable of
making political decisions.

If you really want a math question that shows that people can think
have something like making derive the formula for solving quadratic
equations and explain (and prove) how it works and why. Tests
thinking ability without relying on memorizing of random factiods.

Dag

siani evans

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 4:58:22 PM2/25/04

to

The Emperor Penguin wrote:
>
> siani evans <si...@velvet.net> wrote

> > i think your first guess was bang on the money. british women are far
> > more inclined towards a rubenesque build.
>
> Very delicately put. I kinda suspected this myself.
>
> I have to say, though, that if there are a significant proportion of
> young women in the sample set who are 43 kg/95 lb/7 st or less, then
> that is a deeply unhealthy population. Especially given that the
> average USian is taller than the average UKer, regardless of gender.
> You'd have to be 4'10"/147 cm or less for this to be a healthy weight.
> Which is about your hight isn't it, Siani?

it was when i was in my teens. i'm 4' 11 3/4" now. :) i was also 95lb
until i was about 21. now i'm about 120lbs, and i live in the UK. :P

to be fair i had a few friends around the same weight, none of whom were
suffering from eating disorders or anything, and some of whom were a
couple of inches taller - there's more healthy variation that formulas
like BMI imply. around 100lbs is a pretty common weight for girls in
their teens, and despite the marketing of womens clothing, 5'2" is
average height, so quite a few are smaller.

siani

Albatross

unread,

Feb 25, 2004, 9:35:39 PM2/25/04

to

"Dag" <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message
news:slrnc3pt66....@sunna.tekno.chalmers.se...

Good thinking, guys. Let's disenfranchise everyone but Math Geeks.

After all, I've heard that Math is in everything, like God.

Math Geeks as the New Priesthood! A lot like the old Priesthood,
except with more schizoid personality disorder and less pedophilic
flourish.

st Albatross

~

Joseph Brenner

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 4:31:37 AM2/26/04

to

Dag <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> writes:

> HRH Fascinet <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:

> > That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
> > system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
> > Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
> >
> > Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.
>
> Which would prove what? solving quadratic equations simply show
> that you have blindly memorized some random formula in highshool
> and can regurgitate at will and add a couple of numbers. Wow!
> Truly the skills one should test to decide if one is capable of
> making political decisions.

This suggestion comes form the Heinlein book "Expanded Universe",
where -- in what's supposed to be commentary on an old essay
"Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry?" -- he starts talking
about his novel "Starship Troopers" and then goes on to list
a series of different suggestions for alternatives to our
current system of deciding who's allowed to vote.

The idea that voting machines might challenge you to solve a
quadratic equation is just one of a number of them, and the
point is not that this would be a *perfect* way of screening
the electorate, but it's possible that it would be an
improvement... (e.g. as part of this idea he specifies
dropping age restrictions on voting, which has always been a
rather silly, arbitrary screening system, if you ask me).

Anyway, to quote Heinlein's remarks:

I concede that I set the standards on both I.Q. and
schooling too low in calling only for the solution of a
quadratic since (if the programming limits the machine to
integer roots) a person who deals with figures at all can
solve that one with both hands behind him (her) and
her-his eyes closed. But I just recently discovered that
a person can graduate from high school in Santa Cruz with
a straight-A record, be about to enter the University of
California on a scholarship... but be totally unable to do
simple arithmetic. Let's not make things too difficult at
the transistion.

Heinlein may indeed have an attitude something like
"If you engage the equations, you engage reality."
Or perhaps (to quote a John McCarthy .sig line):
"He who can not do arithmetic is doomed to speak nonsense."

But there is some virtue in this particular idea, in that
doing arithmetic problems is (relatively) apolitical.
Would you prefer a test on the subject of "current events"
as a screening system? But who would write the questions;
how could you possibly keep bias out of the system?

It may seem kind of silly to use a handful of math SAT
questions for this purpose, since realistical it would only
screen out people who weren't willing to prepare for the
test... but that in itself might be the point.

Dag

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 4:46:23 AM2/26/04

to

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:35:39 -0800, Albatross <umbrel...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> "Dag" <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message
> news:slrnc3pt66....@sunna.tekno.chalmers.se...
>> On 24 Feb 2004 06:52:31 -0800, HRH Fascinet
><fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful
> political
>> > system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
>> > Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
>> >
>> > Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.
>>
>> Which would prove what? solving quadratic equations simply show
>> that you have blindly memorized some random formula in highshool
>> and can regurgitate at will and add a couple of numbers. Wow!
>> Truly the skills one should test to decide if one is capable of
>> making political decisions.
>>
>> If you really want a math question that shows that people can
> think
>> have something like making derive the formula for solving
> quadratic
>> equations and explain (and prove) how it works and why. Tests
>> thinking ability without relying on memorizing of random
> factiods.
>
>
> Good thinking, guys. Let's disenfranchise everyone but Math Geeks.
>
> After all, I've heard that Math is in everything, like God.

For what it's worth I consider asking math questions on voting ballots
a stupid idea. My point was that if you absolutly had to ask a math
question asking them to solve a quadradic equation makes as much sense
and tests roughly the same skills as asking who won Superbowl 12 and by
how much.

Dag

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 6:03:28 AM2/26/04

to

On 26 Feb 2004 01:31:37 -0800, Joseph Brenner <do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:

> But I just recently discovered that
> a person can graduate from high school in Santa Cruz with
> a straight-A record, be about to enter the University of
> California on a scholarship... but be totally unable to do
> simple arithmetic.

I've discovered that most of the math proffesors and lecturers at
my (and I suppose all) Universities seem totaly unable to do simple
aritmetic.

>
> Heinlein may indeed have an attitude something like
> "If you engage the equations, you engage reality."

Fair enough and as such I agree, but that requires you to actually
understand the equations not simply reproducing them from memory and
blindly putting in numbers. Putting 12 into a black box and getting
97 out doesn't teach you much about reality.

> It may seem kind of silly to use a handful of math SAT
> questions for this purpose, since realistical it would only
> screen out people who weren't willing to prepare for the
> test... but that in itself might be the point.

In that case why not ask about the scores from random World Series
games between 1950-1960? Anybody willing to prepare for a bit should
have no problem with that and you would have proven exactly the same
point.

Dag

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 10:55:41 AM2/26/04

to

"Albatross" <umbrel...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<suGdnahQQ6n...@comcast.com>...

You're getting the hang of it.

Now, just join the Pythagoreans to learn your geometry, and you'll be
well on your way to spiritual enlightenment.

And, you'll get to shut up for five years.

>
> A lot like the old Priesthood except with more schizoid personality

> disorder and less pedophilic flourish.
>

Hey, nobody's offering a panacea.

-F

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 12:10:00 PM2/26/04

to

"siani evans" <si...@velvet.net> wrote in message
news:403BD8C0...@velvet.net...

> i think your first guess was bang on the money. british women are far
> more inclined towards a rubenesque build.
>
> siani (that was a rewrite - my first version said "british chicks are
> fat" but some of them aren't. it's just that an awfully large
> proportion of them are.)

Oi, they're not fat they're big boned :)

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 12:26:21 PM2/26/04

to

Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403C9507...@earthops.net>...

> HRH Fascinet wrote:
> > Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403A26CC...@earthops.net>...
> >
> >
> >>>Sending kids out naked into the woods to kill a bear?
> >>>
> >>>Shows good woodsmanship and teaches the kid something important at the
> >>>same time.
> >>>
> >>>Never to try to kill a bear with his bare hands.
> >>
> >>Actually, a sort of Eagle Scout type survival test might not be too bad.
> >
> >
> >
> > A Recon survival test would be better.
> >
> > We do want there to be a substantial attrition rate.
>
> Ah, but do they get Recon training before you drop them off in some
> steaming jungle surrounded by searing deserts hemmed in by glacial peaks?
>

No, but they're welcome to it afterwards.

>
> > But is that what you're really looking for? It's more just a kind of
> > marker for accumulated and refined skills. As such, it doesn't
> > involve a learning experience at all, nor a socializing one. Not
> > quite what it sounded like Bruce was talking about.
> >
> > These other two ideas, however, seem to have merit.
>
> What, with the bears?
>

After polling, the black bears seem to think this a good idea.

The polar bears and the grizzlies, however, seem to think that by
eliminating the sacred bear-hunting socialization ritual they'd lose
an important source of protein.

>
> >>Serving in the military does remain one of the few semi-traditional
> >>Rites of Passage, though of course it's not universal and I wouldn't
> >>recommend that it should be, "Starship Troopers" notwithstanding.
> >>
> >> <...>
> >>
> >>I'm suspecting that the Amish "rumspringa" is sort of the way to go, for
> >>a lot of youngsters. Not so much of a "get off of the farm and party"
> >>type of thing, more of a "go take a look at some part of the world
> >>that's not intimately familiar to you" approach.
> >>
> >
> >
> > From the time I was in the service, I don't think I gained any thing
> > approximating wisdom. And I think no one would call me well
> > socialized in any sense of the term.
>
> But how would you have turned out if you hadn't been in the service?
>

I don't know, but I probably would have gotten into fewer fights.

>
> > That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
> > system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
> > Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
> >
> > Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.
>
> Oopsies, there goes _my_ vote. Can I cheat and solve with tabulation, or
> plug stuff into the "generic quadratic solving equation", or do I
> actually have to do algebra in my head?
>

I think you're supposed to solve it yourself. Using the quadratic
formula would be fine, I assume, but not tables. The original idea
had you solve the equation, which was random, to get into the booth,
and if you failed an alarm would go off, and you'd have to slink off
in shame. Although, I believe, you were allowed to get back in line.

I'd prefer it to be something more anonymous. Just a question on the
sheet or screen that tells the machine to count the vote or not.

-F

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 12:50:39 PM2/26/04

to

Dag <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message news:<slrnc3pt66....@sunna.tekno.chalmers.se>...

> On 24 Feb 2004 06:52:31 -0800, HRH Fascinet <fasc...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> >
> > That being said, I think Starship Troopers has a wonderful political
> > system. It disenfranchises all the right people. I also like
> > Heinlein's idea about putting math questions on ballots.
> >
> > Can't solve a quadratic equation? Tough.
>
> Which would prove what? solving quadratic equations simply show
> that you have blindly memorized some random formula in highshool
> and can regurgitate at will and add a couple of numbers. Wow!
> Truly the skills one should test to decide if one is capable of
> making political decisions.
>

At least you'll show you have some of the skills that can be used in
reasoning about data. Part of the appeal is that the question be so
simple, like this, that someone who knows how to apply the rule will
not be dissuaded from voting, but be hard enough that someone unable
to reason mathematically won't be able to pass. It's not a perfect
filter, it doesn't get rid of everybody who shouldn't be making
decisions for the community, but it is a start.

That being said, Heinlein believed this particular test was too
simple.

>
> If you really want a math question that shows that people can think
> have something like making derive the formula for solving quadratic
> equations and explain (and prove) how it works and why. Tests
> thinking ability without relying on memorizing of random factiods.
>

That's labor intensive and potentially discriminatory. The beauty of
this system is that it's only cost is in the programming. After that,
it's free. By grading proofs, on the other hand, you're adding in a
costly layer of human discretion that can only gum up the works when
the arbiter makes a poor decision. There's no guarantee, in this
case, that two graders will accept the same explanation. Atop that,
this becomes more and more like a test or a homework assignment, which
would keep people who should vote from voting.

There are better ways of going about this business. You could ask
people to analyze some simple systems of differential equations to
prove that they know some simple facts about sources and sinks and
cycles and bifurcations, and most importantly, show that they have the
capacity to understand how systems interact. Again, the filter is
imperfect, but it shows that people have some of the skills necessary
to make an informed decision.

-F

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 1:06:30 PM2/26/04

to

Dag <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message news:<slrnc3rkk0....@ankh.math.chalmers.se>...

> On 26 Feb 2004 01:31:37 -0800, Joseph Brenner <do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > But I just recently discovered that
> > a person can graduate from high school in Santa Cruz with
> > a straight-A record, be about to enter the University of
> > California on a scholarship... but be totally unable to do
> > simple arithmetic.
>
> I've discovered that most of the math proffesors and lecturers at
> my (and I suppose all) Universities seem totaly unable to do simple
> aritmetic.
>

Heinlein suggested the ability to solve a quadratic equation was a
proof of sentience.

No one ever said that math professors are sentient.

>
> >
> > Heinlein may indeed have an attitude something like
> > "If you engage the equations, you engage reality."
>
> Fair enough and as such I agree, but that requires you to actually
> understand the equations not simply reproducing them from memory and
> blindly putting in numbers. Putting 12 into a black box and getting
> 97 out doesn't teach you much about reality.
>
> > It may seem kind of silly to use a handful of math SAT
> > questions for this purpose, since realistical it would only
> > screen out people who weren't willing to prepare for the
> > test... but that in itself might be the point.
>
> In that case why not ask about the scores from random World Series
> games between 1950-1960? Anybody willing to prepare for a bit should
> have no problem with that and you would have proven exactly the same
> point.
>

Not quite.

World Series winners have no relationship to being able to reason,
whereas even simple mathematics is a form of reasoning. It's no
different than asking someone a basic logical question, such as

"If Sally wins the lottery, she'll give Dag a handjob. Sally hasn't
given Dag a handjob. Has Sally won the lottery?"

The only problem with asking such questions is that people will scream
regional bias. Handjobs are for Yankees, you see, and therefore this
discriminates against Southerners. The same would be true of any
"word problem" that shows that you know how to apply the rule. People
would scream the way they did about using "sled::snow" in the SAT, and
probably louder.

You want something general and meaningful, yet straightforward and
simple, so that sort people with the quiz, not by its presence, into
people that might possibly know what they're doing and people who
definitely do not.

If you ask about the scores from random World Series games between
1950-1960, you're obviously biasing the vote towards the Republicans,
anyway.

-F

Endymion

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 2:22:28 PM2/26/04

to

"The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet" <fasc...@yahoo.com> wrote

> The only problem with asking such questions is that people will scream
> regional bias. Handjobs are for Yankees, you see, and therefore this
> discriminates against Southerners. The same would be true of any
> "word problem" that shows that you know how to apply the rule. People
> would scream the way they did about using "sled::snow" in the SAT, and
> probably louder.

(snip)

> If you ask about the scores from random World Series games between
> 1950-1960, you're obviously biasing the vote towards the Republicans,
> anyway.

No. You're biasing the vote towards people who have a basic
understanding of the shared culture of the United States.

I like the quadratic equation test, but I'm also a firm believer in the
notion of cultural literacy. I know it would be virtually impossible to
come to an agreement on what such a concept should and should not
include, but I think a test for citizenship rights, including voting,
should also test a few out of a very large number (too many for the
subject to pass through rote memorization of a list) of randomly
selected facts to see if the subject has bought into the shared culture
of our nation.

Every American should be able to explain what the World Series is and
name at least a few winning teams - and maybe a team that hasn't won in
a very long time. Every American should be able to place the phrase "I
have a dream" in context. Every American should be able to name the
basic issues the Revolution and the Civil War were fought over. Every
American should be able to tell you what Bugs Bunny's favorite vegetable
is. People who can't do these things are cultural dropouts and have no
place voting.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Nyx

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 5:04:47 PM2/26/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:c1lh2u$8oh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com:

> Every American should be able to explain what the World Series is and
> name at least a few winning teams - and maybe a team that hasn't won
> in a very long time.

Braves, braves, braves, cubs.

Every American should be able to place the phrase "I
> have a dream" in context.

Porno starring Long Dong Silver, right?

Every American should be able to name the
> basic issues the Revolution and the Civil War were fought over.

The evil that is Britain and states rights.

Every
> American should be able to tell you what Bugs Bunny's favorite
> vegetable is.

Bricka bracka firecracker sis boom bah! Bugs Bunny Bugs Bunny rah rah
rah!

People who can't do these things are cultural dropouts and have no
> place voting.
>

And people who have never seen a laser scanner in a grocery store have
no place running for president. Not to mention those that never showed up
for guard duty.

Nyx

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 5:33:38 PM2/26/04

to

Nyx wrote:
> "Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:c1lh2u$8oh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com:

<snips>

>>American should be able to tell you what Bugs Bunny's favorite
>>vegetable is.
>
>
> Bricka bracka firecracker sis boom bah! Bugs Bunny Bugs Bunny rah rah
> rah!

IGUANA?!?!?

Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 6:53:04 PM2/26/04

to

Quoth Endymion:

> Every American should be able to explain what the World Series is and
> name at least a few winning teams - and maybe a team that hasn't won
> in a very long time.

...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?

(Trying to think what the British equivalent would be. How about "every
Briton should be able to explain the off-side rule"?)
--
Gwenhwyfaer (shaking head in wonder)

some girls wander by themselves

Albatross

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 7:43:38 PM2/26/04

to

fasc...@yahoo.com (The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet) wrote in message

>
> Hey, nobody's offering a panacea.

Nobody's really offering anything.

I'd be more interested is this: show that the ankle-deep chaos that is
our democracy would benefit from taking supposedly stupid people out
of the process.

I'm not sure if I buy this idea that the stupidity of voters is the
problem. The problem lies in the character of the intellgent I think
it's more a lack of respect for deep reality. We have a society where
everyone, including, and sometimes especially, the more intelligent,
glance right off everything. That they do it vigorously means very
little. That's the illusion of activism, that vigor is substance. I
think the real problem in our democracy isn't really stupidity, per
se. It's a kind of general befuddlement that occurs where there is no
humility and no patience. Humility and patience can lead to learning,
a lack of them make for intelligent people down the rabbit hole. The
stupid you have always with you. I'm far more interested in reforming
intelligent people than simply excluding stupid people. I'm less
interested in a vacant stare than in a malicious giggle.

The solution, it seems to me, is a slowing of the entire pace of the
culture. So much information, where is wisdom to be found? We need a
much deeper, more deliberate general education. (For instance: imagine
a culture of intelligent and learning young people who didn't beleive
that the sun first rose in 1967.) We need virtues: honesty, humility,
sacrifice, the rest. In short, we need what can never be, and it's ten
minuites to midnight, and the flood is in full force. The
potty-mouthed barbarian fodder are on the scene; cue barbarians.

The Apocalypse of st Albatross
Chapter One

~Fianna

unread,

Feb 26, 2004, 11:31:15 PM2/26/04

to

Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil wrote:
> Quoth Endymion:
> > Every American should be able to explain what the World Series is and
> > name at least a few winning teams - and maybe a team that hasn't won
> > in a very long time.
>
> ...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?

No. I hate baseball. I think it is stupid and boring, and I'd rather watch
my nails grow. However, I know what the World Series is, and can name some
teams that have won it, just because you can't avoid the stupid thing when
it's being played. I don't think there are many people who don't know who
the Yankees are, at least.

> (Trying to think what the British equivalent would be. How about "every
> Briton should be able to explain the off-side rule"?)

The off-side rule is not the World Series. The baseball equivalent question
to the off-side rule is probably something like explaining the designated
hitter rule. I have no idea what that is, either.

Kat

Dag

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 7:14:50 AM2/27/04

to

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:53:04 +0000, Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil <use...@isle-of-avalon.co.uk> wrote:
> Quoth Endymion:
>> Every American should be able to explain what the World Series is and
>> name at least a few winning teams - and maybe a team that hasn't won
>> in a very long time.
>
> ...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?
>
> (Trying to think what the British equivalent would be. How about "every
> Briton should be able to explain the off-side rule"?)

The British equivilent would be being aware that there is a famous team
called Manchester United and knowing what sport they participate in.

Dag

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 9:00:41 AM2/27/04

to

"Albatross" <big...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:886aca83.04022...@posting.google.com...

> fasc...@yahoo.com (The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet) wrote in message
>
> >
> > Hey, nobody's offering a panacea.
>
>
> Nobody's really offering anything.
>
> I'd be more interested is this: show that the ankle-deep chaos that is
> our democracy would benefit from taking supposedly stupid people out
> of the process.

Maybe as they are being relied apon to get the votes in.
The big problem is realising that you're voting for a trained liar,
or someone too 'weak' to have any say in what you've voted for.

> We have a society where
> everyone, including, and sometimes especially, the more intelligent,
> glance right off everything.

In the UK some of the inteligent decide to vote in a strategic manor
which usually screws everything up. Voting for you're 2nd best choice first
because you don't want the major opponent getting in isn't really democracy
or is it ?

> stupid you have always with you. I'm far more interested in reforming
> intelligent people than simply excluding stupid people.

You could always try educating the stupid even the most basic
explanations could do that.

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 9:22:10 AM2/27/04

to

"Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil" <use...@isle-of-avalon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20040226235304....@isle-of-avalon.co.uk...

> ...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?
>
> (Trying to think what the British equivalent would be. How about "every
> Briton should be able to explain the off-side rule"?)

Nah, sticky middle wicket is the one.

Whisky-Dave

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 9:20:21 AM2/27/04

to

"Endymion" <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:c1lh2u$8oh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com...

> Every
> American should be able to tell you what Bugs Bunny's favorite vegetable
> is. People who can't do these things are cultural dropouts and have no
> place voting.

So knowing Bugs Bunny's favorite veg. is more importent than knowing
where Iraq is in the world ? Or indeed any country outside the 5x states
of the USA, or maybe Bugs Bs food supply is more important than
the Israel/Palestine sitiuation.
Personally I think a voter that knows who are the political leaders
of two opposing countries are, and where those countries are on the map
is probably more clued up on world affairs rather than someone that knows
Bugs Bunny's dietry requirments.
But then again what exactly to the polititions want you to vote for
as that's were the infromation comes from...... :(

Tiny Human Ferret

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 10:53:54 AM2/27/04

to

Albatross wrote:
> fasc...@yahoo.com (The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet) wrote in message
>
>
>>Hey, nobody's offering a panacea.
>
>
>
> Nobody's really offering anything.
>
> I'd be more interested is this: show that the ankle-deep chaos that is
> our democracy would benefit from taking supposedly stupid people out
> of the process.
>
> I'm not sure if I buy this idea that the stupidity of voters is the
> problem. The problem lies in the character of the intellgent I think
> it's more a lack of respect for deep reality. We have a society where
> everyone, including, and sometimes especially, the more intelligent,
> glance right off everything.

I personally would tend to point at society's present values of
"competition is the goal and if underhandedness is the key to success
then underhandedness is desirable". There's a general lack of a moral
compass, in any case.

> That they do it vigorously means very
> little. That's the illusion of activism, that vigor is substance. I
> think the real problem in our democracy isn't really stupidity, per
> se. It's a kind of general befuddlement that occurs where there is no
> humility and no patience.

Well, it seems that everyone is living on a schedule of debt service,
and life with some depth is not an intended consequence, but only
something that seems to develop by accident and usually only as a result
of some major wracking of the life-plan. People with a gajillion dollars
worth of debt find themselves sidelined in bankruptcy, and only when
confronted with the fact that a plan for your life doesn't always work
out, do they pause to try to understand why it didn't work, and
eventually many such persons discover -- if they avoid madness or other
extreme life dysfunction -- that their failures might not have been
theirs, but rather redounded to the system upon which they pinned all of
their hopes. My experience is that only when they discover that this
system basically depends on there being a certain number of people's
lives left scattered along the roadside, like so many lost hubcaps, do
they develop enough anger to motivate them to actually wake up and learn
something other than what's put before them labelled as essential to a
career.

> Humility and patience can lead to learning,
> a lack of them make for intelligent people down the rabbit hole. The
> stupid you have always with you. I'm far more interested in reforming
> intelligent people than simply excluding stupid people. I'm less
> interested in a vacant stare than in a malicious giggle.

Absolutely. One of the things that I have always found to be extremely
worrisome in the IT community is the deeply and widely held belief that
intelligence is only really demonstrated by being able to well and truly
fuck over someone just about as (extremely) intelligent as yourself.
This has led to a subculture of coders who definitely can defend against
133+ h4x0rs but that's only because they themselves learned the trade by
getting root from victims. So you wind up with a bunch of highly
intelligent paranoids who rank themselves and are ranked by each other
by exploits and exploit prevention and who spend half of their time
either getting even or trying to get even, or defending against being
gotten even. I'm surprised anything substantive ever gets produced. And
as you point out, the closest most of them come to humor seems to be the
malicious giggle. The worst part of it is, they seem to think this is
not only normal but desirable, and you'd hope that they'd get a clue and
start working to solve problems with their huge intellects but mostly
they seem to be involved in recriminating the sheep or somesuch.

> The solution, it seems to me, is a slowing of the entire pace of the
> culture. So much information, where is wisdom to be found? We need a
> much deeper, more deliberate general education. (For instance: imagine
> a culture of intelligent and learning young people who didn't beleive
> that the sun first rose in 1967.)

June 1970.

> We need virtues: honesty, humility,
> sacrifice, the rest. In short, we need what can never be,

Well, there's _me_. It's not like I'm getting paid for anything I do.
But I keep doing it anyway, like the mythical dutch boy with his finger
in the dyke. But to the degree that I'm keeping anyone dry, I seem to be
doing it mostly so that they can laugh at me instead of trying to
breathe water.

> and it's ten
> minuites to midnight, and the flood is in full force. The
> potty-mouthed barbarian fodder are on the scene; cue barbarians.

http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/ms/ms_001.htm

Albatross

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 1:39:20 PM2/27/04

to

Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil <use...@isle-of-avalon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<20040226235304....@isle-of-avalon.co.uk>...

> ...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?

I think the idea is that you should have some cultural literacy, even
on aspects of the culture you find uninteresting. I don't agree with
Bruce's specific examples, but I sympathize. I think any knowledge
test required for voting unless could only be stricttly limited to
Civics questions. You ought to have some kind of idea of the workings
and purpose of the Seante before voting for a Senator. To Bruce's
point: I think there is just too much noise in the broader culture to
expect a potential citizen or voter to be aware of any given aspect of
it. We, it seems, are multi-cultural. Thirty years ago, it was a
different ball game.

> (Trying to think what the British equivalent would be. How about "every
> Briton should be able to explain the off-side rule"?)

Do you know what won the Osacar for Best Picture last year? That's
closer to the spirit of the question. Time was, the winner of the
World Series, and series past, would have been have been common
knowledge to anyone taking even minimal part in the culture.

st Albatross

~

Nyx

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 3:02:12 PM2/27/04

to

"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote in news:c1njmt$18n$1
@beta.qmul.ac.uk:

> Personally I think a voter that knows who are the political leaders
> of two opposing countries are, and where those countries are on the map
> is probably more clued up on world affairs rather than someone that knows
> Bugs Bunny's dietry requirments.

Yeah? Without going to google, explain who Jesse Jackson is and his purpose
in the US government.

Nyx

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 3:03:05 PM2/27/04

to

"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote in
news:c1njqb$18p$1...@beta.qmul.ac.uk:

No, that would be the equivalent of the infield fly rule. Which is
difficult for even experts to explain.

Nyx

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:06:02 PM2/27/04

to

big...@speakeasy.org (Albatross) wrote in message news:<886aca83.04022...@posting.google.com>...

> fasc...@yahoo.com (The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet) wrote in message
>
> >
> > Hey, nobody's offering a panacea.
>
>
> Nobody's really offering anything.
>

I'm offering you, at minimum, the chance to live in a world run by me
without the bother of going through the world conquest through
asteroid bombardment that would otherwise occur.

It's a win-win situation. I get to give mouth cancer to all of the
impressionable interns I want, you don't have to worry about a hail of
rocks next Tuesday.

I really don't see what your problem with that is.

>
> I'd be more interested is this: show that the ankle-deep chaos that is
> our democracy would benefit from taking supposedly stupid people out
> of the process.
>

Chaos isn't printed in triplicate and authenticated by a notary
public.

Show and benefit are too vague, but I'll give it a shot. If you don't
like what I say, please clarify what you mean. I'm perfectly happy to
show you empirically, which is the only way to do it, but you'd really
have to allow me to implement the voting standards I think best.

And certainly, I never said stupid people shouldn't vote, just people
incapable of utilizing simple reasoning techniques every high school
student should know, like qualitatively analyzing nonlinear
differential equations, that are necessary to understand any issue at
even a basic level. Just because you're unprepared to vote does not
mean that you're stupid.

It seems to me that in a world where people don't understand the
difference between "heath care" and "health insurance," and conflate
the two indiscriminately, a little bit of mathematics in necessary to
resolve the issue. In this case, probability theory.

If you are incapable of understanding the logistic equation and other
population models (that is, if you're Paul Ehrlich and other
Malthusians), then certainly your views on environmental issues are
moot. A simple course on nonlinear dynamics or continuous modelling
would change that.

In both of these cases most of the people energized to vote due to
their (more often than not) paranoid visions of apocalyptic
consequences if we don't act. We could work to a more rational,
inexpensive, and free nation without their useless input just because
the voters whose votes counted would be less susceptible to the
paranoid rumblings of populists.

>
> I'm not sure if I buy this idea that the stupidity of voters is the
> problem. The problem lies in the character of the intellgent I think
> it's more a lack of respect for deep reality. We have a society where
> everyone, including, and sometimes especially, the more intelligent,
> glance right off everything. That they do it vigorously means very
> little. That's the illusion of activism, that vigor is substance. I
> think the real problem in our democracy isn't really stupidity, per
> se. It's a kind of general befuddlement that occurs where there is no
> humility and no patience. Humility and patience can lead to learning,
> a lack of them make for intelligent people down the rabbit hole. The
> stupid you have always with you. I'm far more interested in reforming
> intelligent people than simply excluding stupid people. I'm less
> interested in a vacant stare than in a malicious giggle.
>

I think that the fact that lawyers can't do math would solve most of
these problems.

>
> The solution, it seems to me, is a slowing of the entire pace of the
> culture. So much information, where is wisdom to be found? We need a
> much deeper, more deliberate general education. (For instance: imagine
> a culture of intelligent and learning young people who didn't beleive
> that the sun first rose in 1967.) We need virtues: honesty, humility,
> sacrifice, the rest.
>

And don't forget that we need platitutdes while you're at it: virtues,
values, education, wisdom.

I'd like to either agree or argue, and as long as you keep everything
so vague as you have in the last two paragraphs, I do agree. It's
just that the last two paragraphs are seeped so deeply in generalities
that I cannot, in good conscience, comment.

>
> In short, we need what can never be, and it's ten
> minuites to midnight, and the flood is in full force.
>

Good night for a party.

You bring the scotch, I'll bring the whores.

>
> The potty-mouthed barbarian fodder are on the scene; cue barbarians.
>

We're here, and we're quite grateful you're so enthusiastic about
being cut down.

Fascinet the Hun
Vice Berserker
Vermont Chapter
Fraternal Order of Independent Barbarians

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

unread,

Feb 27, 2004, 3:10:01 PM2/27/04

to

"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote in message news:<c1njmt$18n$1...@beta.qmul.ac.uk>...

This is the funniest post of the month.

-F

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:11:43 PM2/27/04

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Dag <f98...@dd.chalmers.se> wrote in message news:<slrnc3ud5q....@fraggel51.mdstud.chalmers.se>...

I think it would improve things immensely if voters were even capable
of recalling where it is that Manchester United is from.

-F

The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:16:10 PM2/27/04

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Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403F6812...@earthops.net>...
> Albatross wrote:
>
> <...>

>
> > The solution, it seems to me, is a slowing of the entire pace of the
> > culture. So much information, where is wisdom to be found? We need a
> > much deeper, more deliberate general education. (For instance: imagine
> > a culture of intelligent and learning young people who didn't beleive
> > that the sun first rose in 1967.)
>
> June 1970.
>

The sun first rose before June 1970, but the summer solstice of 1970
was the date of the Second Coming.

I'm sorry you missed the rapture.

>
> > We need virtues: honesty, humility,
> > sacrifice, the rest. In short, we need what can never be,
>
> Well, there's _me_. It's not like I'm getting paid for anything I do.
> But I keep doing it anyway, like the mythical dutch boy with his finger
> in the dyke.
>

What a lucky dutch boy.

<...>

-F

~Fianna

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:22:42 PM2/27/04

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The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet wrote:
> Dag wrote:

> > The British equivilent would be being aware that there is a famous team
> > called Manchester United and knowing what sport they participate in.
> >
>
> I think it would improve things immensely if voters were even capable
> of recalling where it is that Manchester United is from.

Auckland, right?

Kat

Endymion

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:30:59 PM2/27/04

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"Albatross" <big...@speakeasy.org> wrote

> Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil <use...@isle-of-avalon.co.uk> wrote
>

> > ...so having no interest in sport whatsoever is unAmerican...?

No, and that's why the question is so general that even someone with no
interest whatsoever in baseball should be able to answer it. I realize
that many people outside the U.S. won't be able to, but then you won't
be voting in our elections, will you? ;-)

> I think the idea is that you should have some cultural literacy, even
> on aspects of the culture you find uninteresting.

Yes, exactly. You should be familiar with events that make the front
page of the newspaper - or at least the headlines. The World Series is
one of those events, like it or not. If you're so tuned out that you
have no idea what the major headlines of the day are, you're too tuned
out to have any business voting.

> I don't agree with Bruce's specific examples, but I sympathize.

The specific examples were just starting points for discussion, although
some of them - "I have a dream," or the basic causes of the Civil War-
are so central to our political culture I think they would have to be
included.

> I think any knowledge
> test required for voting unless could only be stricttly limited to
> Civics questions.

The only trouble I see with that is that so much of our political
culture cannot be understood outside the larger cultural context.

> Do you know what won the Oscar for Best Picture last year?

I would in no way want to turn it into a Trivial Pursuit game with
specific fact questions such as this, because, while I stand by my
statement that one ought to participate in the culture to the point of
reading the newspaper, that doesn't obligate one to remember trivial
facts one or more years down the line. And, to get back to Gwenhwyfaer's
question, no, I don't regard having insufficient interest in sports or
movies to recall specific championship or award winners as unAmerican.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Endymion

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Feb 27, 2004, 3:38:53 PM2/27/04

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"Whisky-Dave" <whisk...@final.front.ear> wrote

>
> So knowing Bugs Bunny's favorite veg. is more importent than knowing
> where Iraq is in the world ? Or indeed any country outside the 5x
states
> of the USA, or maybe Bugs Bs food supply is more important than
> the Israel/Palestine sitiuation.

Whoever said it was *more* important?

And heck, I'll bet more Americans have been to Iraq now than citizens of
every European nation put together!

> But then again what exactly to the polititions want you to vote for
> as that's were the infromation comes from......

And when I can decipher this into some legible form of the English
language, I'll give you an answer.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 27, 2004, 4:13:11 PM2/27/04

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Perennial annoyance, and general gadfly.

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 27, 2004, 4:15:52 PM2/27/04

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The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet wrote:

> Tiny Human Ferret <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message news:<403F6812...@earthops.net>...
>
>>Albatross wrote:
>>
>><...>
>>
>>>The solution, it seems to me, is a slowing of the entire pace of the
>>>culture. So much information, where is wisdom to be found? We need a
>>>much deeper, more deliberate general education. (For instance: imagine
>>>a culture of intelligent and learning young people who didn't beleive
>>>that the sun first rose in 1967.)
>>
>>June 1970.
>>
>
>
> The sun first rose before June 1970, but the summer solstice of 1970
> was the date of the Second Coming.
>
> I'm sorry you missed the rapture.

What, UNIX second #0?

Endymion

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Feb 27, 2004, 5:21:40 PM2/27/04

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"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote

> Nyx wrote:
> >
> > Yeah? Without going to google, explain who Jesse Jackson is and his
purpose
> > in the US government.
>
> Perennial annoyance, and general gadfly.

Is Jesse still the "Shadow Senator" for DC, or did someone else take
over that role?

He's also, along with Jimmy Carter, a sort of self-appointed unofficial
ambassador and hostage negotiator during international crises.

As well as the most crowd-pleasing speechifier who's never actually been
nominated for anything at the Democratic National Convention.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Endymion

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Feb 27, 2004, 5:24:42 PM2/27/04

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"The Fiendish Plot of Fascinet" <fasc...@yahoo.com> wrote

> Okay, yeah, this has the wrong tone, but I am interested: instead of
> generalities, what kind of examples of "rites of passage" can you give
> that make people wiser and better socialized?

I've been mulling this over all week and I can't come up with any better
suggestions than anyone else can. I suspect these are the sort of
institutions a culture has to evolve, rather than having them be
designed or artificially imposed. But dumbass things that teens come up
with in the absence of any adult participation aren't cutting it. And
ancient ones that long ago stopped having any relevance to our culture
don't really cut it either - they need to somehow evolve along with the
culture while maintaining ties to our cultural heritage.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Tiny Human Ferret

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Feb 27, 2004, 6:44:37 PM2/27/04

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Endymion wrote:
> "Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote
>
>>Nyx wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah? Without going to google, explain who Jesse Jackson is and his
>
> purpose
>
>>>in the US government.
>>
>>Perennial annoyance, and general gadfly.
>
>
> Is Jesse still the "Shadow Senator" for DC, or did someone else take
> over that role?

Actually, DC -- as a Territory, under which legal system the District is
administered by grace of Congress -- gets a non-voting voice in the
House, but not officially in the Senate. That voice would be the capable
Eleanor Holmes Norton, a tireless fighter for her constituency, though
I'll be ice-skating in Hell before the District becomes a State, as that
would require at the least an Amendment to the Constitution, which might
forseably upset the entire military-reservations body of law, etc.

>
> He's also, along with Jimmy Carter, a sort of self-appointed unofficial
> ambassador and hostage negotiator during international crises.
>
> As well as the most crowd-pleasing speechifier who's never actually been
> nominated for anything at the Democratic National Convention.

Oh yeah. However, Mr Jackson is thankfully mostly trying to lend
something like the dignity of the cloth to most of the proceedings at
which he speechifies. There's other folks in the District do it better,
such as one fellow who shall remain unnamed, mostly notorious for
calling one of the leaders of the DCFRA "Control Board" a "handkerchief
head". See also somewhere on one of the
http://www.earthops.net/klaatu/district.97.html pages, or one of those
districtxx.html pages, where xx is the year.

Endymion

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Feb 27, 2004, 7:08:26 PM2/27/04

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"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote

> Endymion wrote:

> > Is Jesse still the "Shadow Senator" for DC, or did someone else take
> > over that role?
>
> Actually, DC -- as a Territory, under which legal system the District
is
> administered by grace of Congress -- gets a non-voting voice in the
> House, but not officially in the Senate.

Right, hence "Shadow Senator" - meaning an unofficial position, the
person who acts as a stand-in, in effect speaking for the absent
Senator(s) who would be in that position if the law were changed. It's
something like a shadow cabinet, except that in the latter case the
shadow ministers are actually members of the legislative body who would
presumably become ministers if their party gained a majority tomorrow,
whereas the Shadow Senator holds no elective office at all. I don't
remember how it was decided that Jesse got this position or who bestowed
it on him, but it was someone in the DC statehood movement. There may
have been a straw poll of district voters or something.

--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com

Jennie

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Feb 27, 2004, 7:10:02 PM2/27/04

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In article <886aca83.04022...@posting.google.com>, Albatross wrote:
> I'd be more interested is this: show that the ankle-deep chaos that is
> our democracy would benefit from taking supposedly stupid people out
> of the process.

There's little enough understanding of the needs of stupid
people within the political process as it is. That is, intelligent people,
when in a position to run things, very often get to think that everyone
(or everyone who really matters) is like them, and has much the same
needs. Who will represent those who have different needs? Those who would,
for instance, benefit more from vocational training than from formal academic
education; who find it easier to relax with simple entertainment than
befuddling high-minded arts; who are never going to be suited to
management work and hope to earn a sufficient wage on the shop floor. It
matters to us all that these people should be represented properly,
because they are, like it or not, the very bedrock of our society, and if
they are well looked after we will all prosper as a result.

> I'm not sure if I buy this idea that the stupidity of voters is the
> problem. The problem lies in the character of the intellgent I think
> it's more a lack of respect for deep reality. We have a society where
> everyone, including, and sometimes especially, the more intelligent,
> glance right off everything.

More focus on teaching people to think when they're at school is
the only simple means of intervention I can think of, at a state level,
and it's something I continue to press for. Unfortunately, it tends to be
ignored in favour of a focus on preparing people for an economic
environment where they might get along better by not thinking too much.
There seems to be less and less awareness now of the value of education
for its own sake - the value of broadening the mind.

Jennie

--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie