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death in june, Tony Wakeford, and Ian Stuart (Skrewdriver) connection

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Christopher Robin Bishop

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May 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/2/98
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I just found a Skrewdriver (late 1970's- '80's racist rock group)
discography website that has Tony Wakeford and Ian Stewart (Skrewdriver)
listed as once having a musical project together. If this is true I
don't think their can be any doubts that Death in June has far right
sympathies. Ian Stewart was never quiet nor apologetic about his far
right racial and political beliefs. Can anyone elaborate on this?
Chris

christopher

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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the following excerpt is from an interview with Patrick O'Kill of
D.I.J. and later Six Comm/Mother Destruction

"One thing that Doug, Tony and I had in common was that we were all
greatly interested in the politician of change during the 1920's and
30's, particularily the rise of teh nazi party and teh Stalinist
regime. Actually all three of us had been involved in left wing
groups in the 1970's, socialist workers party, anti-nazi league etc."

Further more, Above the Ruins - Songs of the Wolf is a brilliant and
long forgotten album. IMHO. Tony is just into the Norse mythology,
strong imagery, and, judging from the Sol Invictus material, the
notion of might is right.

The most important thing here is that the music is brilliant.

***************************************************************
93 CURRENT 93 WE SEE THE DECAY OF THE ANGEL THE MARCH TO
THE END IS IN ORDER HUMAN LIFE IS LIMITED 93 CURRENT 93
***************************************************************

Hemlock

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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Christopher Robin is saying his prayers...

>
> I just found a Skrewdriver (late 1970's- '80's racist rock group)
> discography website that has Tony Wakeford and Ian Stewart (Skrewdriver)
> listed as once having a musical project together. If this is true I
> don't think their can be any doubts that Death in June has far right
> sympathies. Ian Stewart was never quiet nor apologetic about his far
> right racial and political beliefs. Can anyone elaborate on this?

That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?

Let's first figure out how you made the jump from Tony Wakeford to Death
in June. Yes, he used to be in the band, but hasn't been for quite some
time. It's a bit presumptuous to make a judgement about one artist based
on something an associate of his did at one time.

Secondly, have you ever known someone who's politics you didn't agree
with? I know I have. So Tony Wakeford collaborated with Ian Stuart on a
musical project once... I think the key word here is 'musical' (granted,
Ian Stuart's music wasn't the best). The point being, it's not like they
were organizing skinhead rallies together or something. Politics may not
have had anything to do with it. I could turn this around and ask why you
were reading a Skrewdriver web site... Does that mean *you're* a neo-nazi?

Third: Why does it matter?


Hemlock

Follow the Black Valley Trail of Death,
Into the Beautiful Sunshine...
hemlock(at)kontrol.com
ICQ # 2629119 goth.code available if you ask really nicely.
<note: replace .gov with .com in the From: address to e-mail>

Christopher Robin Bishop

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May 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/3/98
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Hemlock wrote:
>
> Christopher Robin is saying his prayers...
> >
> > I just found a Skrewdriver (late 1970's- '80's racist rock group)
> > discography website that has Tony Wakeford and Ian Stewart (Skrewdriver)
> > listed as once having a musical project together. If this is true I
> > don't think their can be any doubts that Death in June has far right
> > sympathies. Ian Stewart was never quiet nor apologetic about his far
> > right racial and political beliefs. Can anyone elaborate on this?
>
> That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?
>
> Let's first figure out how you made the jump from Tony Wakeford to Death
> in June. Yes, he used to be in the band, but hasn't been for quite some
> time. It's a bit presumptuous to make a judgement about one artist based
> on something an associate of his did at one time.
>
> Secondly, have you ever known someone who's politics you didn't agree
> with? I know I have. So Tony Wakeford collaborated with Ian Stuart on a
> musical project once... I think the key word here is 'musical' (granted,
> Ian Stuart's music wasn't the best). The point being, it's not like they
> were organizing skinhead rallies together or something. Politics may not
> have had anything to do with it. I could turn this around and ask why you
> were reading a Skrewdriver web site... Does that mean *you're* a neo-nazi?
>
> Third: Why does it matter?
>

I saw a post for a skrewdriver discography that had Tony Wakeford and
Ian Stewart as being in a band so I checked it out. I am not a
Skrewdriver fan nor a nazi.
It matters because Ian Stewart helped to transform the oi! scene into
a racist recruiting ground. He promoted racial violence and the national
front. What's to say that the apathy in the underground scene that
listens to Death in June, et cetera could not also be transformed into
hate. Apathy towards this kind of thought will only help condone it.
How can one respect an artist that would musically work with a hate
monger unless they are apathetic or sympathetic to the hate? Have you
heard the music in question so that you can elaborate on it's content?
It matters because some of us care about who we associate with and
the political sympathies of artists we read, listen to, watch, et
cetera. I have lots of friends I don't agree with but none of them want
to kill "niggers" and burn Jews!
You are right that Tony Wakeford is a former member and I should not
generalize about Death in June as a whole. That's why I asked for
someone to elaborate, which you didn't. You attacked me for asking a
question and making a supposition as to Death in June's sympathies.
Thanks for the help and have a nice day.

> Hemloc

catherine

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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Hemlock wrote:
>
> Christopher Robin is saying his prayers...
> >
> > I just found a Skrewdriver (late 1970's- '80's racist rock group)
> > discography website that has Tony Wakeford and Ian Stewart (Skrewdriver)
> > listed as once having a musical project together. If this is true I
> > don't think their can be any doubts that Death in June has far right
> > sympathies. Ian Stewart was never quiet nor apologetic about his far
> > right racial and political beliefs. Can anyone elaborate on this?
>
> That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?
>
> Let's first figure out how you made the jump from Tony Wakeford to Death
> in June. Yes, he used to be in the band, but hasn't been for quite some
> time. It's a bit presumptuous to make a judgement about one artist based
> on something an associate of his did at one time.

Dont you think thats soft-peddling it a bit? Ian Stuart was a violent
bigot. As an "artist", his message was one of violent bigotry. This
isn't a case of disagreeing with the beliefs of an artist divorced from
his work; the art itself is a forum for those beliefs. If someone
collaberates with such a person, on such a project, it is not unfair to
ascribe those beliefs to them. Your dipiction of the circumstances
makes it sound like Christopher is inferring that Julia Roberts supports
a free Tibet becuase she collaberated with Richard Gere, which is not
the same circumstance were dealing with here. That said, there is a
rather open question as to whether such a project occured. However,
what is an uncontroverted fact is that Wakeford has collaberated on a
number of occasions with Boyd Rice, who in addition to being a noise
artist, is a rather prominant neo-nazi, and was running the American
Front at the time of their first projects. DIJ (post-Wakefield) has
also collaberated with Rice. Now you can ballance that out against
Crisis' far-left agenda and the fact that they were openly and
publically opposing Stuart with R.A.R., DIJ's SS imagry fascination and
a whole host of other things, and draw what conclusions you will.



> Secondly, have you ever known someone who's politics you didn't agree
> with? I know I have. So Tony Wakeford collaborated with Ian Stuart on a
> musical project once... I think the key word here is 'musical' (granted,
> Ian Stuart's music wasn't the best). The point being, it's not like they
> were organizing skinhead rallies together or something. Politics may not
> have had anything to do with it. I could turn this around and ask why you
> were reading a Skrewdriver web site... Does that mean *you're* a neo-nazi?


1. Ian Stuart didn't have any politically neutral projects after 1982
2. Granting that I've heard dozens of rumors on the issue which
come and go, assuming that this particular one is true, if you work
with someone whose idea of music is:
"Nigger, nigger, get on that boat
Nigger, nigger, row
Nigger, nigger, get out of here
Nigger, nigger, go, go, go..."
then yes, you get tarred with the same brush.
-


> Third: Why does it matter?

Because its important to some people, as evidenced by the fact that
these rumors (and facts) have been bandied about and debated for years.

Jim Dugan

Hemlock

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
to

So this Christopher Robin Bishop character tells us...

>
> I saw a post for a skrewdriver discography that had Tony Wakeford and
> Ian Stewart as being in a band so I checked it out. I am not a
> Skrewdriver fan nor a nazi.

Ok, I'll accept that. Just curious, you know :)

> It matters because Ian Stewart helped to transform the oi! scene into
> a racist recruiting ground. He promoted racial violence and the national
> front. What's to say that the apathy in the underground scene that
> listens to Death in June, et cetera could not also be transformed into
> hate. Apathy towards this kind of thought will only help condone it.

True, but there is a world of difference between Skrewdriver and Death in
June or Sol Invictus. Neither of the latter bands promote politics of any
kind in their lyrics. Skrewdriver apparently did nothing *but* sing about
their beliefs. I imagine it would be kind of difficult to rally people
around an idea that isn't even stated. Not to mention that I tend to give
fans of this type of music a bit more credit for intelligence than I'd
give your average skinhead.

> How can one respect an artist that would musically work with a hate
> monger unless they are apathetic or sympathetic to the hate? Have you
> heard the music in question so that you can elaborate on it's content?

Have I heard which band? I'm a rather avid Death in June fan, as well as
any related works (ie: Sol Invictus, Current 93, etc). Have I heard
Skrewdriver? Unfortunately yes, through various friends in the past and my
recent ex-roommate's brother who was squatting our living room. He's a
white power skinhead with an extensive collection of far-right wing music.
A great guy on a personal level, as long as he didn't talk about his
political views, which he knew better than to do around me.

> It matters because some of us care about who we associate with and
> the political sympathies of artists we read, listen to, watch, et
> cetera. I have lots of friends I don't agree with but none of them want
> to kill "niggers" and burn Jews!

Thankfully I have none of these either. When it comes to music (or artists
in general), I don't give a second thought to the politics of the artists
involved. I don't care what they're into as long as the music (or art) is
something I find pleasing. This of course depends on their political
agenda not being promoted through their art, at which point it's thrown in
my face and I have to draw the line.

> You are right that Tony Wakeford is a former member and I should not
> generalize about Death in June as a whole. That's why I asked for
> someone to elaborate, which you didn't. You attacked me for asking a
> question and making a supposition as to Death in June's sympathies.

That was neither an attack nor an accusation. Seriously. I get this all
the time about some of the stuff I'm into. I was just following a similar
sort of logic, which turned up an inaccurate result. I'm glad it did.

> Thanks for the help and have a nice day.

Don't mention it :)


Hemlock
np: Fire + Ice, "Gilded by the Sun"

Hemlock

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
to

So this catherine (or Jim Dugan, as the case may be) character tells us...

>
> Hemlock wrote:
> >
> > That's kind of a stretch, don't you think?
> >
> > Let's first figure out how you made the jump from Tony Wakeford to Death
> > in June. Yes, he used to be in the band, but hasn't been for quite some
> > time. It's a bit presumptuous to make a judgement about one artist based
> > on something an associate of his did at one time.
>
> Dont you think thats soft-peddling it a bit? Ian Stuart was a violent
> bigot. As an "artist", his message was one of violent bigotry. This
> isn't a case of disagreeing with the beliefs of an artist divorced from
> his work; the art itself is a forum for those beliefs. If someone
> collaberates with such a person, on such a project, it is not unfair to
> ascribe those beliefs to them

But Death in June was named. I fail to see how they fit in to this
anywhere, aside from the fact that Tony Wakeford used to be in the band.
Wakeford may or may not be a neo-nazi sympathizer, but this doesn't
reflect a thing on Doug Pierce, et al.

I'm not familiar with the Wakeford/Stuart project. Was it in fact a
blatantly neo-nazi work? If so, then I understand why one might question
his beliefs. If not, then I'm afraid I don't get it.

> That said, there is a
> rather open question as to whether such a project occured.

See above. I'm open to being proved wrong. Not that it will prevent my
buying Sol Invictus material, of course.

> However,
> what is an uncontroverted fact is that Wakeford has collaberated on a
> number of occasions with Boyd Rice, who in addition to being a noise
> artist, is a rather prominant neo-nazi, and was running the American
> Front at the time of their first projects.

Now this one has been beaten to death on r.m.i. and WSD-L. Granted, Boyd
Rice tends to go a bit further with the imagery than Wakeford or Pierce
do, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Some may call this naive, but
perhaps apathetic might be more accurate. I enjoy Rice's work, and as long
as it doesn't become a vehicle to promote his personal beliefs I'll
continue to support it.

And don't forget Boyd Rice's contributions to the work of Death in June
(which you mention below), Current 93, Coil, and many other bands/artists.
Would you overlook all of this because of his beliefs?

> DIJ (post-Wakefield) has
> also collaberated with Rice. Now you can ballance that out against
> Crisis' far-left agenda and the fact that they were openly and
> publically opposing Stuart with R.A.R., DIJ's SS imagry fascination and
> a whole host of other things, and draw what conclusions you will.

The conclusion I personally draw is that it doesn't matter. To me, that
is, YMMV.

> 1. Ian Stuart didn't have any politically neutral projects after 1982

True.

> 2. Granting that I've heard dozens of rumors on the issue which
> come and go, assuming that this particular one is true, if you work
> with someone whose idea of music is:
> "Nigger, nigger, get on that boat
> Nigger, nigger, row
> Nigger, nigger, get out of here
> Nigger, nigger, go, go, go..."
> then yes, you get tarred with the same brush.

By some, yes. By most even. I don't buy Skrewdriver's music, partially
because I don't like the ideas it promotes, partially because I think the
music itself is complete shit. But I think the music of Sol Invictus is
great (even if Wakeford is tone deaf :)). That alone is enough for me to
buy it. I don't give his personal beliefs a second thought, or even a
first thought, honestly.

> > Third: Why does it matter?
>
> Because its important to some people, as evidenced by the fact that
> these rumors (and facts) have been bandied about and debated for years.

I'm interested in why it's important to these people. I don't understand
it myself. Wasn't there a thread here a while back about artists (mainly
painters, I believe) who had questionable personal habits? And whether one
could appreciate their art in spite of it?


Hemlock

Axel

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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Hemlock wrote in message ...

>So this catherine (or Jim Dugan, as the case may be) character tells us...

>> > Third: Why does it matter?


>>
>> Because its important to some people, as evidenced by the fact that
>> these rumors (and facts) have been bandied about and debated for years.
>
>I'm interested in why it's important to these people. I don't understand
>it myself.

If an artist has an agenda that I am strongly at odds with I would prefer not
to support them financially.

Since there are many more albums that I want to own than I can afford to buy
this information forms part of the equation in my decisions on what to buy,
what to tape etc.

So knowing that a band I like has views that I am strongly opposed to means
that I am very unlikely to buy their records, see their shows etc.

But at the same time, if I dislike their views (e.g. Gary Numan) but love their
work I am still prepared to spend some money on them.

So gathering as much information as possible is necessary to make a properly
informed decision.

Axel
Everything is True, Even False Things
- Malaclypse the Younger
<axelmaya@SPAM_IS_NOT_NICEglobalserve.net>

Deadlock

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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On Mon, 4 May 1998 09:35:06 -0400, "Axel"
<axelmaya@SPAM_is_not_very_NICEglobalserve.net> squealed like a piggy:
>But at the same time, if I dislike their views (e.g. Gary Numan) but love their
>work I am still prepared to spend some money on them.

What's poor old Gary done? Why is he evil?
<sigh>
Is no one pure any more?


---H*ydn ---
We are grey.
We stand between the Twit and the Flame
Between the Trolls and the Darkness.

Come back Children On Stun! All is forgiven!

Greg Clow

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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catherine <cba...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu> wrote:
: what is an uncontroverted fact is that Wakeford has collaberated on a

: number of occasions with Boyd Rice, who in addition to being a noise
: artist, is a rather prominant neo-nazi, and was running the American
: Front at the time of their first projects. DIJ (post-Wakefield) has
: also collaberated with Rice.

As far as I know, Boyd never actually ran the American Front. And his
association with them - and other neo-Nazi groups - is still considered by
many to be a "shock value" thing. While his politics *are* controversial
and right-leaning in the survivialist/Darwinist/"might is right" sense, I
have *never* seen any racist or hate-fueled quotes attributed to him.

Note also that Frank Tovey of Fad Gadget, who is a strong supporter of
left-wing politics and the rights of the working class, worked with Rice
on an excellent noise album called Easy Listening For The Hard of Hearing
back in the early 80's. Hard to use the "Nazi by association" argument
here.

Finally, I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain that I've seen quotes
from Wakeford renouncing his association with neo-Nazi groups in his
youth, and he and Douglas P (DIJ) have been opposed to the reissues of
some of their more politically charged early work as they wish to
disassociate themselves from the politics. A good example of this was
Douglas P's decision a couple of years ago to remove the Totemkampf (sp?)
logo from all future editions of DIJ releases since it is associated with
the Nazi movement.

: Now you can ballance that out against


: Crisis' far-left agenda and the fact that they were openly and
: publically opposing Stuart with R.A.R., DIJ's SS imagry fascination and
: a whole host of other things, and draw what conclusions you will.

My conclusion is that, quite simply, these people are interested in
political extremes. And the fact is (at least in my mind): the farther you
move to the right or left in the political spectrum, the closer you get to
the extreme edges of the other side. Witness the right-wing Nazi regime
and the left-wing Soviet Communist regime. Two sides of the same coin.

All that being said, though, I look upon Ian Stuart as being scum of the
lowest order. It is one thing to *hold* extreme ideals and beliefs, but it
is quite another to take those beliefs to the next level and express them
in a racist or hateful manner.


Greg

sk...@hevanet.com

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May 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/4/98
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In article <354D85...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>#1/1,
cba...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu wrote:

(snip)
> However,


> what is an uncontroverted fact is that Wakeford has collaberated on a
> number of occasions with Boyd Rice, who in addition to being a noise
> artist, is a rather prominant neo-nazi, and was running the American
> Front at the time of their first projects. DIJ (post-Wakefield) has
> also collaberated with Rice.

Just to set the record straight, Boyd Rice is not a rather prominent neo-
nazi. Last I checked, you had to belong to a neo-nazi organisation to be
given that title. Boyd neither ran the American Front nor was ever an actual
member of it, regardless of the photo of him with the AF uniform--that was
done for Sassy magazine's sake.

> Now you can ballance that out against
> Crisis' far-left agenda and the fact that they were openly and
> publically opposing Stuart with R.A.R., DIJ's SS imagry fascination and
> a whole host of other things, and draw what conclusions you will.

Take this into consideration: Tony Wakeford's nazi guilt-by-association
from working with Ian Stuart in Above The Ruins (in the past) is as relevant
as his anti-nazi work with Crisis (also in the past). The point is, they're
both in the past, and don't reflect his political standpoint (or lack
thereof) today.

> 1. Ian Stuart didn't have any politically neutral projects after 1982

> 2. Granting that I've heard dozens of rumors on the issue which
> come and go, assuming that this particular one is true, if you work
> with someone whose idea of music is:
> "Nigger, nigger, get on that boat
> Nigger, nigger, row
> Nigger, nigger, get out of here
> Nigger, nigger, go, go, go..."
> then yes, you get tarred with the same brush.

Above The Ruins' album, though definitely charged with a pro-European
sentiment, does not have any lyrics like this.

> > Third: Why does it matter?
>
> Because its important to some people, as evidenced by the fact that
> these rumors (and facts) have been bandied about and debated for years.

True; these things are important to some people. And the rumors have
gone on for years and will continue to go on.
Did I hear someone mention Laibach?

--SKot

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

cba...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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In article <6il8vt$p0n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,

sk...@hevanet.com wrote:
>
> In article <354D85...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>#1/1,
> cba...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu wrote:
>
> (snip)
> > However,
> > what is an uncontroverted fact is that Wakeford has collaberated on a
> > number of occasions with Boyd Rice, who in addition to being a noise
> > artist, is a rather prominant neo-nazi, and was running the American
> > Front at the time of their first projects. DIJ (post-Wakefield) has
> > also collaberated with Rice.
>
> Just to set the record straight, Boyd Rice is not a rather prominent neo-
> nazi. Last I checked, you had to belong to a neo-nazi organisation to be
> given that title. Boyd neither ran the American Front nor was ever an actual
> member of it, regardless of the photo of him with the AF uniform--that was
> done for Sassy magazine's sake.

No, even assuming you accept his denials, it was done for Boyd Rice's sake.
I'm not saying that he isn't a shameless self promoter, attention seeker, and
shock-artist, just that he's seldom honest or consistant. The fact is, that
the Sassy picture isn't the beginning and end of it, Rice has appeared
numerous times on Race and Reason, the WAR cable access show and certainly
deliberately lead people to assume he was part of the racist right over a
substantial period of time. While he's generally content to dismiss the photo
as "a lark", when presed on his friendship with Heick, his association with
Metzger and his actual involvement with the AF, he generally falls back on
either the "think what you will of me..." theme that runs through his work, or
alternately draws distinctions between his stated social darwinist/CoS beliefs
and Nazism on semantic points, despite the fact that neither AF nor WAR are
Nazis (a distinction which is rather arcane to people not versed in the
vagaries of race-politcs, but something of which Rice is quite aware).

> > Now you can ballance that out against
> > Crisis' far-left agenda and the fact that they were openly and
> > publically opposing Stuart with R.A.R., DIJ's SS imagry fascination and
> > a whole host of other things, and draw what conclusions you will.
>
> Take this into consideration: Tony Wakeford's nazi guilt-by-association
> from working with Ian Stuart in Above The Ruins (in the past) is as relevant
> as his anti-nazi work with Crisis (also in the past). The point is, they're
> both in the past, and don't reflect his political standpoint (or lack
> thereof) today.

True, and I doubt that Exon is likely to hire any more drunken tanker
captains, but the damage persists. I realize that this is my subjective
opinion, which is the result of an awful lot of thought and information that
is far too broad to really go into here, but I'm a much harsher critic of
those who would knowingly dabble in the excesses of nazism (I realize the use
of the term here is imprecise) for its atmosphere, infamy, associations or
what have you, and thereby advance it, socially and economically all the while
indifferent to the consequnces of their actions. Nazism is all about
propaganda and imagry. Rice and Wakeford not only are keenly aware of that,
but used it to their own ends, at best irresponsibly, and I'm far less
inclined to dismiss that than I would be to accept the repentence of some kid
who saw the Sassy photo and got involved in utter ignorance.

> > 1. Ian Stuart didn't have any politically neutral projects after 1982
> > 2. Granting that I've heard dozens of rumors on the issue which
> > come and go, assuming that this particular one is true, if you work
> > with someone whose idea of music is:
> > "Nigger, nigger, get on that boat
> > Nigger, nigger, row
> > Nigger, nigger, get out of here
> > Nigger, nigger, go, go, go..."
> > then yes, you get tarred with the same brush.
>
> Above The Ruins' album, though definitely charged with a pro-European
> sentiment, does not have any lyrics like this.

What exactly does that mean? And further, why has Wakeford apparently denied
that the project exists? Finally, if your willing to work with an "artist"
whos entire creative regard is this material what does that say about you?

Jim Dugan

Hemlock

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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So this Axel character tells us...

>
> If an artist has an agenda that I am strongly at odds with I would
> prefer not to support them financially.

But if it's just a personal belief? Something that's not being promoted
through their art?

> So knowing that a band I like has views that I am strongly opposed to
> means that I am very unlikely to buy their records, see their shows etc.
>

> But at the same time, if I dislike their views (e.g. Gary Numan) but love
> their work I am still prepared to spend some money on them.

Exactly my reason for not caring much about it. The music is well worth it
to me.

So what's Gary's story?

Axel

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
to

Deadlock wrote in message <355be35e...@news.mel.aone.net.au>...

>What's poor old Gary done? Why is he evil?

Gary loves Maggie Thatcher..

><sigh>
>Is no one pure any more?

Only me.
<sigh>

Axel

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
to

Hemlock wrote in message ...
>So this Axel character tells us...
>>
>> If an artist has an agenda that I am strongly at odds with I would
>> prefer not to support them financially.
>
>But if it's just a personal belief? Something that's not being promoted
>through their art?


It would depend on what the belief is and on how committed they are and how
visible it is in what they are saying, how much I enjoy their art etc.

For example, if a band gave all its money to the Khmer Rouge, even if there was
no reference to its support for them in its music I would almost certainly not
buy any of their records (unless their music was better than S&tB).

Mind you, in this case I wouldn't have a problem taping somebody elses copy and
listening to them, or buying second hand.

On the other hand, if a band contributed a percentage of its earnings to the
Liberal Party & supported them publicly that wouldn't affect my decision.

Most cases would fall somewhere between those two extremes.

>Exactly my reason for not caring much about it. The music is well worth it
>to me.

For me, it comes down to the fact there are a vast number of bands that I like
and I cannot afford to buy everything that I want so the views of the bands
form part of the equation in determining my spending decisions.

To a lesser extent the policies of the record label do too.

>So what's Gary's story?


He's a Thatcherite Tory.

Which, you might have noticed, runs directly against my political beliefs.

sk...@hevanet.com

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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In article <6imcgg$5dr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
cba...@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu wrote:

> No, even assuming you accept his denials, it was done for Boyd Rice's sake.
> I'm not saying that he isn't a shameless self promoter, attention seeker,
and
> shock-artist, just that he's seldom honest or consistant. The fact is, that
> the Sassy picture isn't the beginning and end of it, Rice has appeared
> numerous times on Race and Reason, the WAR cable access show and certainly
> deliberately lead people to assume he was part of the racist right over a
> substantial period of time. While he's generally content to dismiss the
photo
> as "a lark", when presed on his friendship with Heick, his association with
> Metzger and his actual involvement with the AF, he generally falls back on
> either the "think what you will of me..." theme that runs through his work,
or
> alternately draws distinctions between his stated social darwinist/CoS
beliefs
> and Nazism on semantic points, despite the fact that neither AF nor WAR are
> Nazis (a distinction which is rather arcane to people not versed in the
> vagaries of race-politcs, but something of which Rice is quite aware).

No, there's no denying that Boyd is involved in some controversial
political ideas. And he's gone far beyond just pushing people's buttons and
trying to get reactions. But as far as belonging to any political
organisations, the only thing he actively belongs to is the COS.

> True, and I doubt that Exon is likely to hire any more drunken tanker
> captains, but the damage persists. I realize that this is my subjective
> opinion, which is the result of an awful lot of thought and information that
> is far too broad to really go into here, but I'm a much harsher critic of
> those who would knowingly dabble in the excesses of nazism (I realize the
use
> of the term here is imprecise) for its atmosphere, infamy, associations or
> what have you, and thereby advance it, socially and economically all the
while
> indifferent to the consequnces of their actions. Nazism is all about
> propaganda and imagry. Rice and Wakeford not only are keenly aware of that,
> but used it to their own ends, at best irresponsibly, and I'm far less
> inclined to dismiss that than I would be to accept the repentence of some
kid
> who saw the Sassy photo and got involved in utter ignorance.

I won't attempt to apologize for Wakeford or Boyd's actions. But they
are two very different people, with very different ideas. Tony Wakeford has
stated that he and Boyd don't see eye-to-eye. So at the very least, they
can't be lumped in together.

> > Above The Ruins' album, though definitely charged with a pro-European
> > sentiment, does not have any lyrics like this.
>
> What exactly does that mean? And further, why has Wakeford apparently
denied
> that the project exists? Finally, if your willing to work with an "artist"
> whos entire creative regard is this material what does that say about you?

It's true that Tony didn't talk about this project for years. However,
he has recently owned up to it and even released it himself through World
Serpent (as did Douglas P. with the Crisis material). You can find the album
on CD on the racks now. It's actually rather good, and IMHO better even than
some of the early Sol Invictus material. This is an opinion formed with no
bias towards whoever was in the band, since I didn't know that information
when I first heard it.
Interesting to note that there is no information included with the re-
release, and no mention of the personnel involved.

--SKot

Derick Phillips

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Death in June not political? ok, you people just go on thinking that...
Although not as blatant as Rice or Stuart, I am sure in nearly 20 years
of artistry Death in June have expressed a political view or two through
their
music. Death in June's retain a certain amount of subtly in their approach.
And why does it matter? Why does everything have to be so black and white?
If you enjoy their art, that should be the end of it.

Avatar
deat...@juno.com

The Cathedral of Tears
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/5775/


rogue2

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May 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/5/98
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Derick Phillips wrote:

> Death in June not political? ok, you people just go on thinking that...
> Although not as blatant as Rice or Stuart, I am sure in nearly 20 years
> of artistry Death in June have expressed a political view or two through
> their
> music.

Also note that while not many songs are aimed at political matters, they have
done albums for the cause of countries in political strife and war, namedly the
live double cd "Something Is Coming - Live In Croatia" where they gave a
certain percentage of the profits to a charity that helps those harmed in the
war, and the entire album was released just for that purpose in particular.

It might not be political in the sense of "let my people go" or anything, but
it still hits home on a political and international level.

- Rôgue
Smile you fucker!
Happiness is a temporary chemical imbalance of the true state of mind
"Slashed by streaking figures, and beams of the moonlight, and ripped at
the seams, in this midsummer nights dream.." - This Ascension, "Ill Met
By Moonlight"
One of papa pan's demonspawn *adjusts halo*


Axel

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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Derick Phillips wrote in message <6inln1$448$1...@news1.iamerica.net>...

>And why does it matter? Why does everything have to be so black and white?
>If you enjoy their art, that should be the end of it.

It matters because giving money to people who support certain issues is
tantamount to supporting their beliefs.

That's the reason for boycotting companies or places that are doing things one
is opposed to.

If someone has an opinion that I am strongly opposed to I don't want to provide
them with the means to further promote those opinions.

Especially since there are so many other bands that I could support.

Brian Hodges

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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As per Skrewdriver's involvement in Mr Wakeford's 'Above the Ruins', he
has stated both to me and to other lists that this is a rumor. The only
people involved in this project were himself, his girlfriend at the time
and a braindead hippy producer.

That is all.


sk...@hevanet.com

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May 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/6/98
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In article <Pine.A41.3.96a.980506100410.70836B-
100...@dante30.u.washington.edu>#1/1,

I can confirm that he said this. However, there had to have been
someone else involved on this, unless the braindead hippy studio producer did
vocals as well. Because you can distinctly hear 3 different voices on the
album: Tony's (unmistakeable), a woman's (his ex-girlfriend), and some other
guy who is NOT Tony.

David Gerard

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
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On Tue, 5 May 1998 10:30:02 -0400, "Axel"
<axelmaya@SPAM_is_not_very_NICEglobalserve.net> wrote:
:Deadlock wrote in message <355be35e...@news.mel.aone.net.au>...

:>What's poor old Gary done? Why is he evil?

:Gary loves Maggie Thatcher..


He's a Tory voter, but he didn't love Thatcher - e.g. he was appalled by
Clause 28.


--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ AGSF Unit 0|4 http://suburbia.net/~fun/
Stop JUNK EMAIL Boycott AMAZON.COM http://mickc.home.mindspring.com/index1.htm
"God, you have pissed me off to the point where I really wanna cut off your
face and bitch slap your skull." - Individuation

Axel

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
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David Gerard wrote in message <35601269...@thingy.apana.org.au>...

>On Tue, 5 May 1998 10:30:02 -0400, "Axel"
>:Gary loves Maggie Thatcher..
>
>
>He's a Tory voter, but he didn't love Thatcher - e.g. he was appalled by
>Clause 28.


But he was all in favour of her economic policies, union bashing etc.

That's bad enough for me.

Cinka

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
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I think you're all stupid. It sounds to me like none of you know what you're
talking about....

I'm not going into too much detail...but do any of you realize that Nazi's
don't exist anymore? How about they were only around in WWII?? Maybe, ya think?
We're talking white supremisists...stop throwing around a word that doesn't
mean anything anymore...if you don't agree, how about this...Douglas told me
himself at the SF show. Thank you!! snap snap.

-Cinka


the_orchids

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May 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/8/98
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XloreleiX wrote in message
<199805090122...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...


>Cinka wrote:
>
>>I think you're all stupid. It sounds to me like none of you
know what you're
>>talking about....
>

>I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to say "you're all
stupid"--to whom are
>you referring?? Everyone on this newsgroup? The people that
posted to this
>thread with *gasp* differing opinions?


>
>>I'm not going into too much detail...but do any of you realize
that Nazi's
>>don't exist anymore? How about they were only around in WWII??
Maybe, ya
>>think?
>

>Say what? There *are* neo-Nazis. There's a group with
headquarters less than 50
>miles from my home.
>
>Do a little research if you're planning to call everyone else
"stupid." It
>helps you look less so.


>
>>We're talking white supremisists...stop throwing around a word
that doesn't
>>mean anything anymore...
>

>Which word? Nazi? Funny, it's still in the dictionary...and it
does refer to
>people who hold similar views as *well* as the actual members of
the National
>Socialist German Workers' party.
>
>It's *not* an interchangeable term with "white supremacist".


>
>>if you don't agree, how about this...Douglas told me
>>himself at the SF show. Thank you!! snap snap.
>

>He told you *what*, exactly?? Make some sense before you post
something,
>girl...*snap snap*

this "cinka" person keeps posting here because she want's us to
submit to her magazine and then she bitches about our "stupidity"
and posts to threads without really contributing anything except
the fact that she seems to think she's some sort of uber-goth.
i'm finding that this is rubbing me the wrong way really quickly.
truly,
s. daniel
"time is waiting in the wings, he speaks of senseless things, his
script is you and me"
-bowie
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/3986/
wVieba3baGaaiaaaabaa76euMMEYdjbayzbabqbk1heeLx5b5aGb5aOaaaaCcedHZ
daT
aakvnk6baasNbasMEPFaaGaecbusWA

XloreleiX

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to

Cinka wrote:

>I think you're all stupid. It sounds to me like none of you know what you're
>talking about....

I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to say "you're all stupid"--to whom are
you referring?? Everyone on this newsgroup? The people that posted to this
thread with *gasp* differing opinions?

>I'm not going into too much detail...but do any of you realize that Nazi's
>don't exist anymore? How about they were only around in WWII?? Maybe, ya
>think?

Say what? There *are* neo-Nazis. There's a group with headquarters less than 50
miles from my home.

Do a little research if you're planning to call everyone else "stupid." It
helps you look less so.

>We're talking white supremisists...stop throwing around a word that doesn't
>mean anything anymore...

Which word? Nazi? Funny, it's still in the dictionary...and it does refer to
people who hold similar views as *well* as the actual members of the National
Socialist German Workers' party.

It's *not* an interchangeable term with "white supremacist".

>if you don't agree, how about this...Douglas told me
>himself at the SF show. Thank you!! snap snap.

He told you *what*, exactly?? Make some sense before you post something,
girl...*snap snap*

X Lorelei X
* * * * * * *
"Green is the colour of my true love's exoskeleton"~Zorak
"It's wrong because it's, like, against society!"~M. McDowell
http://members.aol.com/XloreleiX ~it's virtually sucky!


Hemlock

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to

So this Cinka character tells us...

>
> I think you're all stupid. It sounds to me like none of you know what you're
> talking about....

Pot? Kettle?

> I'm not going into too much detail...but do any of you realize that Nazi's
> don't exist anymore? How about they were only around in WWII??

Excuse me. *Neo*-Nazis... Better?

> Maybe, ya think?


> We're talking white supremisists...stop throwing around a word that doesn't

> mean anything anymore...if you don't agree, how about this...Douglas told me


> himself at the SF show.

Douglas told you *what*, exactly? That Nazis don't exist anymore? That
Nazis are white supremacists? That you're an idiot? Should I keep
guessing?

> Thank you!! snap snap.

What the fuck was that?

Axel

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to

Cinka wrote in message <199805082154...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

>I'm not going into too much detail...but do any of you realize that Nazi's

>don't exist anymore? How about they were only around in WWII?? Maybe, ya


think?
>We're talking white supremisists...stop throwing around a word that doesn't
>mean anything anymore...

How can anybody be this clueless?
Have you not heard of the National Front in France?
The Republican Party in Germany?
The British National Party?
The Heritage Party in Canada?
All the organisations linked to: http://www.stormfront.org/links.htm

These are all racist, nationalist organisations.
Some of them have managed to get representatives elected.

>if you don't agree, how about this...Douglas told me

>himself at the SF show. Thank you!! snap snap.

Unfortunately, a denial cannot be considered proof.
It is evidence, but people can, and have lied about their beliefs for
centuries.
For example, Galileo denied believing in the heliocentric universe when it
suited him to do so.
But everyone knows he did.

Kei...@hotmail.com

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May 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/9/98
to

As it is . . .

Can we have a more nuanced discussion here? I LOVE the bands, & I love some of
Boyd's stuff too. But I want to talk about the possible political
implications of the music, if for no other reason that I find it interesting.

So be it!

David Gerard

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May 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM5/13/98
to

I went to see Non/DiJ (which are now the same people), so I'm a Nazi too.


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