Rozz and Nazis?!
ala...@azstarnet.com
guess what!!l...@hopi.dtcc.edu (GERALD J. LA CORTE) had the world let
it be known:
>During the song from Candide Voltaire, David pulled out a Nazi flag and
>displayed it on the drum set; I notice it was set of backwards, with the
>pole side on the right instead of the left, but figured it was a result of
>David's non-sobriety. After the song, the drummer took the flag off
>his set, David picked it up and draped it over his shoulder displaying
>promenantly.After the eighth
>song, the venue management stepped in, turned on the lights, and ended the
>show, apologizing for any offense. The booking agent also apologized.
>IMO, that doesn't really explain David's wrapping himself in the flag.
>That's pretty much about as explicit as you can get. Parallel with
>wrapping oneself in the Conferderate flag or a white sheet with pointy
>hat. Further, that play has not been advertised in Philadelphia during
>the past five years as far as I know.
its just theatrics really
you might recall Joy Division getting into trouble for their pics on
album covers.
and the early punks wore Nazi badges just to piss off the people who
didnt get it. Siouxsie Sioux did it too. I doubt any of them really
stood for it.
when i was living in Vermont there was a punk band Jesus Nut who have
a song called
Aryan Youth. it sounds pro but Its complete satire. you wouldnt know
it except for a few vague lines that he mumbles towards the end and on
the tape jackets fine print.
heck when i saw them perform, i saw many of my jewish punk friends
singing along with "oi oi oi"
its mostly theatrics and an artistic way of reminding us what kind of
degredation of what fear and blind hate summons up.
thats all
Your Humble Narrator
Aladdin Leather
soon to be moving near New Orleans and
totaly bummed thati've missed Anne rice's
party by 2 weeks
--
http://www.azstarnet.com/~aladden/cobweb.htm (Aladdin & Fuschia)
http://www.azstarnet.com/~aladden/lam.htm (London After Midnight)
http://www.azstarnet.com/~aladden/bauhaus.htm (Bauhaus & dark themes)
See what hell breaks loose when you give a goth HTML lessons
GERALD J. LA CORTE
Well this past weekend was the Dark Harvest festival in Philadelphia; I,
once again, spent the night in the Bus terminal and slept through most of
Sunday once I got home.
First on were Gravedance (Philadelphia) and Majesty in Misery (New York);
both pretty much straight-line gothic bands. Didn't really turn me on,
but people change with time. Then came Advent Sleep (York, Pa - Near
Philadelphia) and New Creatures (New York). Both were more of gothic
dance and I appreciated the beat. I found out later that the New
Creatures had pretty much played out the New York scene - they either
should or should have played around more. How much could it cost to get a
road-trip tour for the north Atlantic cities - Both Boston and Washington
are less than six hours drive from NYC.
Then came the headline act David and Rozz Williams - I was really looking
forward to this one. The first three were kind of cool - nothing to write
home about, but good gothic dance. I saw very quickly that David was very
un-sober, but wasn't sure if it was alcohol, it might have been, but not
likely. I also realized that it was David's show and Rozz was doing
backup vocals and instrumentation.
Then David did an Abba song, a song from Candide Voltaire, a song by
Tennesse sombody (not Williams), and a song by Mama Cass. <Excuse me> -
no I heard that right and typed it correctly also. During his eighth and
last song he basically told everyone and everything to fuck off - it was
much more dramatic than Ministry's - In Case Your Didn't Make the Show -
Stigmata.
During the song from Candide Voltaire, David pulled out a Nazi flag and
displayed it on the drum set; I notice it was set of backwards, with the
pole side on the right instead of the left, but figured it was a result of
David's non-sobriety. After the song, the drummer took the flag off
his set, David picked it up and draped it over his shoulder displaying
promenantly.
During the song by Tennesse whoever it was, I went over to the wall and
sat down hoping would play something more interesting. After the eighth
song, the venue management stepped in, turned on the lights, and ended the
show, apologizing for any offense. The booking agent also apologized.
Going outside, there were basically two groups of people: those swearing
that David and Rozz would be spending the night in the hospital and those
weaping and wailing about the lack of understanding that was shown David
and Rozz. They said the song was, "The Future Belong to Me," where a
German youth is singing the song with a Nazi flag in the background - that
he was just trying to do a scene from a play. They were also unhappy
because the play was a "classic".
IMO, that doesn't really explain David's wrapping himself in the flag.
That's pretty much about as explicit as you can get. Parallel with
wrapping oneself in the Conferderate flag or a white sheet with pointy
hat. Further, that play has not been advertised in Philadelphia during
the past five years as far as I know.
Let's see how the Goth crowd would stand again the Nazi justice system.
Anyone of non-German ancestry is off to the camps. Being homosexual got
you into one of the camps as quickly as being jewish, so there goes all
the men in skirts. The too-skantily-clad women are obviously protitues
and compromising the values of otherwise good people. Anyone wearing an
ankh is a heretic. These two, along with witchcraft got you into one of
the camps. Anyone with fangs is obviously deviant. Is anyone left at the
shows? I suppose the rest of us are guilty by association, or, ohh,
guilty of protecting criminals against the state.
This was Nazi German law, love it or hate it.
To those of you who complained - THANKS A LOT FOR TRYING TO ***FUCK*** UP
THE PHILADEPHIA GOTHIC - INDUSTRIAL SCENE.
Best Regards - no really,
Jay
Mattwolf
ala...@azstarnet.com (ala...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
>its just theatrics really
>you might recall Joy Division getting into trouble for their pics on
>album covers.
> and the early punks wore Nazi badges just to piss off the people who
>didnt get it. Siouxsie Sioux did it too. I doubt any of them really
>stood for it.
Siouxsie Sioux did it and then when she found out Nazis liked it she
started wearing Stars of David to piss THEM off. Sioxsie is cool like
that.
--Matthew
DncngFerrt
ala...@azstarnet.com writes:
:its mostly theatrics and an artistic way of reminding us what kind of
:degredation of what fear and blind hate summons up.
Please explain that to my Jewish friend who left in tears, or to the
twenty or so people who walked out when he did it.
Please also explain that to the people who came out to a goth show for the
first time, who left thinking that we're all a bunch of Nazis.
There's only so much you can chalk up to "theatrics." If he urinated on
the audience and hurled feces at them, would you consider it "theatrics?"
[Patrick]
Dancing Ferret Concerts -- Gothic, Industrial, Ethereal and Vampire
entertainment in Philadelphia
For general info, email Fer...@Ferret.Com or visit http://www.ferret.com
Generally speaking, we don't have tour schedules, only info on
Philadelphia shows.
Christopher Boetticher
In article <553nqm$j...@apache.dtcc.edu>, l...@hopi.dtcc.edu (GERALD J. LA CORTE) done wrote:
<huge snip>
Your account of the evening is so inaccurate I'm wondering if you were
actually there.
1. You obviously don't know who Rozz Williams or David E. Williams even
are. You've mixed up David and Rozz. Rozz sang, David played keyboards.
Rozz used to be in a really cool band called Christian Death. David is a
local artist with 2 cd's out and he appears on the Cleopatra Sisters
tribute record, plus he's a really nice guy that I've known for a
while. The two have never played in public together before. I don't
think the organizers of the show really knew either, otherwise they
wouldn't have been so surprised when a Nazi flag was pulled out.
2. The did a 10cc cover (I'm Not in Love), they did a song from the
musical Cabaret (Tomorow Belongs to Me), they did 2 Christian Death
songs (When I was Bed and Cavity), they did 2 David E. Williams songs
(Pumpernickle Crust, and Sandra Lindsay) and they did one of Rozz's
noise songs (from the Premature Ejaculations stuff I believe, called
Mindfuck)
3. The only people Rozz said fuck off to were the management of the club
and the promoters of the show for pulling the plug. The last song, BTW,
was the 10cc song in which he told no one to fuck off.
4. When you said "Ministry's - In Case Your Didn't Make the Show" did
you mean in Case You Didn't Feel Like Showing Up?
5. Rozz pulled out the flag during Tomorrow Belongs to Me. But, there
were no drums for him to put it on, or drummer to remove it. it was
David who removed it from the keyboards.
Now off to the flag bit... I don't think Rozz was exactly supporting any
Nazi or Fascist ideals. It didn't seem a little kooky that a bisexual in
army fatigues and a Mickey Mouse tie was singing I'm Not in Love wrapped
in a Nazi flag while David E. Williams plays backup?
The early ending of the show really did kill the whole evening for me. I
know I've seen much worse than a Nazi flag. I didn't hear anyone
complaining except for the hyperactive club owner and his brutich
security force who were yelling to kill the mics. I know I was much more
upset by how quickly the whole thing was squashed and we were all thrown
out. I plan and thinking hard before I give the Middle East any more of
my money.
Feh.
Chris
John Yorio
btw, i don't think i was claiming anyone said rozz was indeed a
fascist-at least not in this thread-i was basically adding my two cents,
lest someone think i am rejecting their position, of course i may well
be, oh well nevermind
--
john yorio |graduate student: philosophy "it's where the big money is"
|"What is needed above all is an absolute skepticism toward
|all inherited concepts"-Nietz., The Will to Power
DncngFerrt
l...@hopi.dtcc.edu wrote:
:I saw very quickly that David was very un-sober, but wasn't sure if it
was :alcohol, it might have been, but not likely. I also realized that it
was David's :show and Rozz was doing backup vocals and instrumentation.
You're confusing the two guys. David was the guy playing keyboards. Rozz
was the "very un-sober" person doing vocals that you describe.
:David pulled out a Nazi flag and displayed it on the drum set; I notice
it was :set of backwards, with the pole side on the right instead of the
left, but figured :it was a result of David's non-sobriety. After the
song, the drummer took the :flag off his set, David picked it up and
draped it over his shoulder displaying
:promenantly.
That was Rozz.
Other than that, you're right on target.
[DFC]
Osiris
On 29 Oct 1996, DncngFerrt wrote:
> There's only so much you can chalk up to "theatrics." If he urinated on
> the audience and hurled feces at them, would you consider it "theatrics?"
No, then I'd have to call it "performance art."
"If you'll excuse me... I must seek knowledge and its bastard son, truth."
== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
Christian Grigis
Christopher Boetticher wrote:
>
> Now off to the flag bit... I don't think Rozz was exactly supporting any
> Nazi or Fascist ideals. It didn't seem a little kooky that a bisexual in
> army fatigues and a Mickey Mouse tie was singing I'm Not in Love wrapped
> in a Nazi flag while David E. Williams plays backup?
Does that excuse anything? What he did was *deliberately* offensive,
no matter how he was dressed or who he was playing with, or if he
supports
Nazism or not.
> The early ending of the show really did kill the whole evening for me. I
> know I've seen much worse than a Nazi flag. I didn't hear anyone
> complaining except for the hyperactive club owner and his brutich
> security force who were yelling to kill the mics. I know I was much more
> upset by how quickly the whole thing was squashed and we were all thrown
> out. I plan and thinking hard before I give the Middle East any more of
> my money.
I guess we have very different views then.
The fact that Rozz supports Nazi ideals or not is his problem. But
to impose it on the audience in the way he did it only shows complete
inconsideration.
When you go watch a Die Form or Genitorturers concert, you *know*
that what you are going to see is different and can be offensive, and
you
*decide* by yourself if you want to go & see it or not. Rozz obviously
did it completely out of the blue, since the club, the organizers and
apparently not even David knew about it. And I don't think no one was
complaining. There was a lot of talk going on in the audience.
Rozz acted like a total jerk, and ending the show was the best
thing to do.
This unfortunate part put aside, the evening was excellent, and
the bands performing did a great show!
-Christian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now it's time for the world to see a man with open eyes, |Christian
Grigis
Now it's time to realize we tell ourselves the best of lies,| cgrigis@
Now it's time to see the fact we are all the unity, |
blackntan.
Now it's time for us to deliberate our aim. |
cgisystems.com
------------------- Project Pitchfork - "Conjure"
-----------------------------
John Yorio
it is impossible to argue from what was displayed on saturday night at
dark harvest, that rozz is fascist/nazi/racist, he may very well be but
that can not be decided by the presentation of a swastika or the singing
of a song with the words "fatherland" in it...
consider the argument:
rozz displayed a nazi flag, therefore rozz is a fascist/nazi/racist
compared to
suzi goth wears a crucifix(not just a cross, but a symbol of jesus on the
cross), therefore suzi goth is xtian/racist/homophobic
now one can clearly see in the second case that there may be other
motivating factors for suzi to wear the crucifix-perhaps she finds the
design striking, or perhaps, since she often finds herself accused of
being a satanic priestess, she finds humor in the clash between the
crucifix and her mode of dress-it offends the xtians even more...it can
NOT be safely argued that she is definitely a xtian...
similarly rozz, in the interview in carpe noctum earlier this year, hints
that the swastika has some graphic value for him (he of course could be
lying to cover up a fascist belief but that should work to show the
validity of my argument as well-he's posing as a fascist for a
reason)...it should also be noted that rozz is perorming artist(well the
artist part is debatable i suppose, but i'm not going to split hairs =)
)at the least people will agree he's a performer...there is ambiguity in
the gesture in light of the performance nature of the event...if, as he
claimed, he is an entertainer and shock-value entertains, then hey, what
better way to shock some people...
this is not to say that it was not insensitive of rozz, however this is
an issue of performer responsability (which i will be addressing in the
completed version of this article) not rozz's fascist ties...
DncngFerrt
>I didn't hear anyone complaining except for the hyperactive club owner
and >his brutich security force who were yelling to kill the mics.
That's because you stuck around until the club pulled the plug. The 20+
people who walked out when he pulled out the flag were none too happy
about it.
According to David, he warned Rozz in advance not to pull the flag out
because it was inappropriate to the venue and the show. According to the
venue security, Rozz was warned once to take it down, then he picked it up
again later and wrapped himself in it, at which point, the plug was
pulled.
To be brief, we did not bring Rozz Williams to Philadelphia to have him
perform wrapped in a Nazi flag. In my personal opinion, he did what he
did as a "fuck you" and nothing more.
--Patrick
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 29-Oct-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
Dncng...@aol.com
I don't get it. how does the fact that this guy ran out in tears prove
any conclusion about Rozz or anybody else, except the said guy?
Michael J. Salo
"Fire Dances" / mondays 9am - noon / 88.3 wrct pittsburgh
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~salo/fd.html
-All who died and everything's alive-
DrX
On 29 Oct 1996, John Yorio wrote:
> btw, i don't think i was claiming anyone said rozz was indeed a
> fascist-at least not in this thread-i was basically adding my two cents,
> lest someone think i am rejecting their position, of course i may well
> be, oh well nevermind
>
Well, at rozz's performance at Philly (someone had told me), he apparently
had a nazi flag displayed upside down, and was yelling pretentious remarks out at the
audience. He was saying things like "Go home, and I hate philly".
Someone had said he has to support his junkee habit by playing national
acts.
My question for everyone who went to the oct 26th show: Did this really
happen?
I've heard some other "bad" things about rozz...but i don't want to
believe them. He's a great musicician...
-drx (who wants the _old_ xtian death back)
---
D...@netlabs.net (a.k.a. Valhalla)
http://www.netlabs.net/hp/drx/
"To be great is to be misunderstood" -Emerson
---
ala...@azstarnet.com
Damn!!! wrong sig (not mine)
Your Humble Narrator
Aladdin Leather
soon to be moving near New Orleans and
totaly bummed that i've missed Anne Rice's
DncngFerrt
ti...@netaxs.com writes:
>You obviously don't know who Rozz Williams or David E. Williams even
>are. [snip] I don't think the organizers of the show really knew either,
>otherwise they wouldn't have been so surprised when a Nazi flag was
pulled >out.
According to the Director of Publicity at Rozz's label, Triple X, Rozz has
never done anything like this before. According to David, he has
certainly never done this before. I've never seen or heard of either of
them doing this before, nor has anyone I've spoken to.
--Patrick
ala...@azstarnet.com
guess what!!dncng...@aol.com (DncngFerrt) had the world let it be
known:
> ala...@azstarnet.com writes:
>
>:its mostly theatrics and an artistic way of reminding us what kind of
>:degredation of what fear and blind hate summons up.
>
>twenty or so people who walked out when he did it.
Valid point taken, if it affected someone to that degree I wouldnt
stick around for the rest of the show either.
I'ts very confusing ......
I've got both their music. Since both their lyrics are a tad
undecipherable its difficult to tell from pro to con in the
lyrics that seem to be inspired from a drug hullicination.
are they mocking the Nazi ideals,since im against Nazism I would tend
to think so. its what i 'd see in my mind.
they make their lyrics difficult to understand. I believe they try to
confuse the audience in a way to make you understand your own feelings
toward the matter.
Its seems the performance art was taken to a new level.
Unless the artist said straight out "I'm for the Nazi System"
i would think its performance art mocking the system.
>
>Please also explain that to the people who came out to a goth show for the
>first time, who left thinking that we're all a bunch of Nazis.
I admit that would SUCK!!!!!!
>
>There's only so much you can chalk up to "theatrics." If he urinated on
>the audience and hurled feces at them, would you consider it "theatrics?"
nope, just disgusting
I wouldnt pay to see that.
I wouldnt expect to.
The audience should handle where the line ends and begins
you've shed new light about what happened at the show in the second
post.
I've never seen those two perform live on stage.
so i really cant give that much input.
I know they have bizarre stage presence.
I guess its how far they take it you should handle it.
If you KNOW ITS WRONG
then PROTEST.
KEEP LOVING DA BLUES,BABE
DncngFerrt
ala...@azstarnet.com wrote:
A:its mostly theatrics and an artistic way of reminding us what kind of
A:degredation of what fear and blind hate summons up.
We replied:
D:Please explain that to my Jewish friend who left in tears, or to the
D:twenty or so people who walked out when he did it.
To which Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> responded:
M:I don't get it. how does the fact that this guy ran out in tears prove
M:any conclusion about Rozz or anybody else, except the said guy?
To which we say:
We never said that this person's response proved any conclusion about Rozz
or anyone else. We were disputing the claim that it was "mostly
theatrics" and had been done in "an artistic way."
-DFC-
Terrence J. Gumpper
Enough, enough already!
For christ sakes this is ridiculous!
Does anyone here know *anything* about Rozz Williams or Christian Death?
Anyone here ever see the play CABARET?
You do know Rozz does a cabaret-esque act.
I'm part Jewish & I'm bisexual...you don't see me all spazzed out!
First of all, Rozz is not entirely straight, sexually speaking. This is a
known fact. Colin & Patrick were there that night when the 3 of us
discussed sex & sexuality with Rozz.
Second, that performance stunt Rozz pulled was DIRECTLY from the play
Cabaret which is set in Nazi occupied France.
Yes, maybe what he did was not that kosher, however, don't Goths bitch
about rednecks/casuals/yo-boys making mean, insensitive comments at them!
You all can play your psycho-drama bullshit here in Philly. I'll refrain
from such immature theatrics!It's what I expect anymore. I've been in this
scene here in Philly since the mid-80s, and never was I so disgusted by its
members. But hey what should I expect, the old-school mentality....from
this *new* scene...hahahaha yea right! Back in the day, we would of laughed
our asses off because we know Rozz & he like dick people.
Anyway, here's an idea for all you pissed off philly goths to recruit
people:
JOIN THE JESSE HELM'S CULT...BECOME A PHILLY GOTH.
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 30-Oct-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
Dncng...@aol.com
>
> We never said that this person's response proved any conclusion about Rozz
> or anyone else. We were disputing the claim that it was "mostly
> theatrics" and had been done in "an artistic way."
I still don't understand. Because some people were offended, this means
it was not theatrical or even "artistic"?
I'm very sorry if Rozz somehow violated your "personal space." Might I
suggest the "dancing ferrets" go dance themselves back into their
hutches and stay there?
I believe you've taken up the wrong business.
David Gerard
In article <555tld$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DncngFerrt wrote:
: ala...@azstarnet.com writes:
::its mostly theatrics and an artistic way of reminding us what kind of
::degredation of what fear and blind hate summons up.
:Please explain that to my Jewish friend who left in tears, or to the
:twenty or so people who walked out when he did it.
Rozz is gay. What happened to the fags in Nazi Germany?
How do you feel when Mel Brooks (Jewish) messes with swastikas?
You know damn well it's a joke, of course. But why?
--
http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/scn -- email me if it doesn't work for you
http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~gerard/ (European mirror)
mailto: f...@suburbia.net f...@athene.tertius.net.au
Anti-Scientology Picket Dec 7-8 1996 http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/demo.htm
Terrence J. Gumpper
Christian Grigis <cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com> wrote in article
<3277DA...@blackntan.cgisystems.com>...
> Terrence J. Gumpper wrote:
> > First of all, Rozz is not entirely straight, sexually speaking. This is
a
> > known fact. Colin & Patrick were there that night when the 3 of us
> > discussed sex & sexuality with Rozz.
>
> Huh? So what? I don't really get the connection here ... could
> you elaborate?
>
> > Second, that performance stunt Rozz pulled was DIRECTLY from the play
> > Cabaret which is set in Nazi occupied France.
>
> Including Rozz picking up the flag after David had thrown it
> away, and wrapping himself in it for the next few songs?
>
If people knew what the hell Rozz is like or about Christian they would
find it amusing. Think about it a man who professes not to be heterosexual
with a Nazi flag. The oxymoron is amusing. I\Nazis are not funny, they are
scary & twisted. However, to actually conjure the notion of Rozz being a
Nazi or supporting such beliefs, is a thought wrought only ignorance.
> (...) Lots of blabla & "I was in the scene before you all" etc. (...)
>
> So what if you have been in the scene since the mid-80s?
> If what happened makes you "laugh your ass off", that's great. That
> doesn't mean everybody else has to, nor does that make them any less
> part of "the scene" than you if they don't laugh.
As for this, the point I was making is if they knew, or even had a clue to
what is going on, offense would not have been conceived.
And as for my existence within the scene & for what duration, it was a
reference to the fact I happen to know what I'm talking about, unlike some
others.
Terrence J. Gumpper
Christian Grigis <cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com> wrote in article
<3277DA...@blackntan.cgisystems.com>...
> Terrence J. Gumpper wrote:
> > First of all, Rozz is not entirely straight, sexually speaking. This is
a
> > known fact. Colin & Patrick were there that night when the 3 of us
> > discussed sex & sexuality with Rozz.
>
> Huh? So what? I don't really get the connection here ... could
> you elaborate?
Hey Christian, what happen to homosexuals & jews in Nazi Germany?
And are you aware of Rozz's ethnic & sexual orientation?
Two ques. that needed to be addressed.
DncngFerrt
Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> "apologizes" as follows:
:I'm very sorry if Rozz somehow violated your "personal space." Might I
:suggest the "dancing ferrets" go dance themselves back into their
:hutches and stay there?
You may suggest what you like until you are blue in the face.
:I believe you've taken up the wrong business.
If you are implying that Nazi imagery is integral to either the concert
promotion business, or the goth scene in general, then perhaps you should
hop on over to alt.aryan.youth where the truly intellectual artists are,
and leave us here in the cultural dark ages where we belong.
--Patrick--
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 31-Oct-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
Dncng...@aol.com
>
> If you are implying that Nazi imagery is integral to either the concert
> promotion business, or the goth scene in general, then perhaps you should
> hop on over to alt.aryan.youth where the truly intellectual artists are,
> and leave us here in the cultural dark ages where we belong.
Have you even figured it out yet that they were performing a song from a
play about WWII? It's called ART. FREE EXPRESSION is indeed integral
to art, goth, and life in general.
The "men in charge" shutting down the show because they felt offended
(out of complete ignorance no less)... The very definition of
censorship?
This is all so obvious I'm almost embarrassed to have to try and explain
it to you.
DncngFerrt
>Have you even figured it out yet that they were performing a song from a
>play about WWII?
I think you were the only person bright enough to figure out this very
obscure reference. The rest of us were completely in the dark on this
one. Really.
>It's called ART. FREE EXPRESSION is indeed integral to art, goth, and
life in >general.
He is perfectly free to be artistic and expressive on his own time. When
he's an employee, he can follow the job specs or find another job. If
Rozz wants to rent a concert hall and sieg heil all night long, I don't
care; that's his business and his right. If I'm paying the rent, then *I*
have the right to dictate what goes on.
>The "men in charge" shutting down the show because they felt offended
>(out of complete ignorance no less)... The very definition of
censorship?
If I call you an excrement-sucking malodorous backstabbing pedophile with
buck teeth, and then tell you there's some artistic context within which
the statement was made, does that make you "ignorant" if you still choose
to take offense?
You're missing the key point here, probably because you are choosing to.
The show was shut down because Rozz was warned that his use of imagery was
not appropriate. It was not what he was hired to do. He chose to defy the
wishes of his employers, and as such, his employment was terminated.
Surely an employer has the right to dictate what functions his employees
are to perform? Or do "rights" apply only to people who share your
particular viewpoint?
>This is all so obvious I'm almost embarrassed to have to try and explain
>it to you.
Thank you, once again, for bringing enlightenment to the vast cultural
wasteland that is alt.gothic.
-Patrick-
DncngFerrt
"Terrence J. Gumpper" <tjgu...@pipeline.com>
>However, to actually conjure the notion of Rozz being a Nazi or
supporting >such beliefs, is a thought wrought only ignorance.
One night at the kitchen table doesn't make you his shrink, Terrence.
-P-
DncngFerrt
f...@athene.tertius.net.au (David Gerard) wrote:
>Rozz is gay. What happened to the fags in Nazi Germany?
It is a well-documented fact that a number of people *actively* involved
in violent hate groups in America would have, in fact, been first in the
ovens if they were alive in Nazi Germany.
The fact that Rozz is gay does not make him incapable of being a
hatemonger, nor does it give him carte blanche to be offensive.
You cite Mel Brooks, but his works are presented in the framework of
comedy. There is context there. Rozz's performance was certainly not
comedic in nature.
-P-
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 1-Nov-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
Dncng...@aol.com
> not appropriate. It was not what he was hired to do. He chose to defy the
> wishes of his employers, and as such, his employment was terminated.
What, did you people hand him fucking guidelines as to exactly how he is
supposed to perform? How about you keep your greasy promoter hands out
of it, and leave the performance up to the ARTIST? You are not the
artist, sorry to tell you. Your actions of shutting down the show
(besides being the defintion of censorship, as I pointed out before) are
a textbook example of someone going power-crazy just because they can't
help it. I doubt very many people who went to see ROZZ WILLIAMS et al
perform really give a shit what the Dancing Ferrets think. FUCK YOUR
AGENDA. I will never, as long as I can help it, give my money to
anything which you people have one filthy paw involved in.
the Albatross
DncngFerrt wrote:
> The show was shut down because Rozz was warned that his use of imagery > was
> not appropriate. It was not what he was hired to do. He chose to defy > the
> wishes of his employers, and as such, his employment was terminated.
> Surely an employer has the right to dictate what functions his employees
> are to perform? Or do "rights" apply only to people who share your
> particular viewpoint?
<gasp>
I hope you -wrote him up first-
Oh, the humiliation of being *written up* will quell almost any act of
self-expression!
I wouldnt argue that you have no right to expell someone from a place
that you own.
I would argue that you are a squeamish little toad.
Maybe you could start booking Johnny Mathis.
Sorry, but you used the word *appropriate*- I cant stand that word. Its
a vapid little word. To say that the act was not *appropriate*
is just the kind of desecration of the english language that I would
eject from any club I owned. Its right up there with telling your wife
shes
"special".
"Sure honey, I'd love to fuck your best freind. But...
do you think its *appropriate*?"
If your gonna have some morals, ahve some morals.
Dont hide behind appropriate.
<retch>
Albatross
++++++++++++++++++++
He was a good boy, he was a nice boy, he was a shy boy,
and it made him bitter.
-Hemingway, from The Sun Also Rises
tpa...@fix.net
the mudthing of sector7g
the Albatross (tpa...@fix.net) wrote:
: DncngFerrt wrote:
: > The show was shut down because Rozz was warned that his use of imagery > was
: > not appropriate. It was not what he was hired to do. He chose to defy > the
: > wishes of his employers, and as such, his employment was terminated.
: > Surely an employer has the right to dictate what functions his employees
: > are to perform? Or do "rights" apply only to people who share your
: > particular viewpoint?
: I hope you -wrote him up first-
: I would argue that you are a squeamish little toad.
: Maybe you could start booking Johnny Mathis.
: Sorry, but you used the word *appropriate*- I cant stand that word. Its
: a vapid little word. To say that the act was not *appropriate*
: is just the kind of desecration of the english language that I would
: eject from any club I owned. Its right up there with telling your wife
: shes
: "special".
: If your gonna have some morals, ahve some morals.
: Dont hide behind appropriate.
Seriously. I have agree here. What happens when DeathInJune come to town
and want to play Swastikas for Noddy. Where do you draw the line?
I mean, how is having Women of Sodom perform enamas on stage appropriate,
but Rozz's satire not? Many people might say wearing black crusty makeup, wearing fake
fangs and donning a slip to a club is 'inappropriate'.
Oh, and to the person who said they experienced true opppresion because
they walked into the wrong bar with the wrong kind of clothing on, you can change your
freaking clothes, crybaby. There is real simple difference between deciding to dress a
certain way, and being born into a certain ethnicity or whatever. sheesh.
---
the mudling7g
http://st2184.tc.tufts.edu
Osiris
On 1 Nov 1996, DncngFerrt wrote:
> >The "men in charge" shutting down the show because they felt offended
> >(out of complete ignorance no less)... The very definition of
> censorship?
> If I call you an excrement-sucking malodorous backstabbing pedophile with
> buck teeth, and then tell you there's some artistic context within which
> the statement was made, does that make you "ignorant" if you still choose
> to take offense?
Wow. Is that a part of The New Cruelty (TM)? But seriously, if I paid to
see you onstage, knowing full well your history of theatrics and shock
tactics, and keeping in mind that there might be some basis (historical
or otherwise) for calling me an "excrement-sucking malodorous backstabbing
pedophile with buck teeth," then I would definitely be ignorant if I got
offended.
"Ignorant" (I'm trying to figure out why you put it in quotes), according
to the Oxford English Dictionary, means: destitute of knowledge, either
in general or with respect to a particular fact or subject; unknowing,
uninformed, unlearned; not acquainted with a subject; showing absence of
knowledge; resulting from ignorance.
Therefore, if you don't know something because you're underinformed (as
you've admitted), then you are, in fact, ignorant. Don't take it as an
insult. We're all ignorant of something, because as much as I hate to
admit it, there are some things that even I don't know. Yes, it's all
true! *sob* I couldn't even tell you what you're wearing right now.
"Ignorance is bliss, and patience is a virtue, which means you can live a
pretty good life if you're stupid and don't mind waiting around."
== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
And remember, it's better to hurl yourself screaming naked into the void
than to lie down and sleep with it.
DncngFerrt
Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>What, did you people hand him fucking guidelines as to exactly how he is
>supposed to perform? How about you keep your greasy promoter hands out
>of it, and leave the performance up to the ARTIST?
Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we have an obligation to our
customers - the audience. As local promoters, we have to use our best
judgement as to what might exceed the boundaries of good taste. It's our
job. What doesn't bat an eyelash in LA might provoke a riot elsewhere.
It's also our job to ensure that nothing violates the rules imposed on us
by the venue. If we don't give them that simple measure of respect, then
we may soon find ourselves without a place to hold shows.
You seem to think that people should have carte blanche to do as they
wish, as long as they couch it in the guise of "art." While nobody would
disagree with the fact that there has been an alarming rise in
unwarranted censorship of artistic expression in this country, the fact
remains that you are deliberately confusing the issue. Someone was hired
to come to this city to do a specific job. They did not perform the job
they were hired to do. End of story.
Your continued efforts to cloud the matter coupled with your abusive
attitude make it apparent that you are not interested in a free exchange
of logical ideas; you're simply looking for a fight.
In closing, I suggest that you try promoting a few shows on your own.
Perhaps then you'll gain some understanding of the issues that are truly
involved.
--Patrick--
Jordan Decay
DncngFerrt wrote:
>
> Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
> >What, did you people hand him fucking guidelines as to exactly how he is
> >supposed to perform? How about you keep your greasy promoter hands out
> >of it, and leave the performance up to the ARTIST?
As local promoters, we have to use our best
> judgement as to what might exceed the boundaries of good taste. It's our
> job. What doesn't bat an eyelash in LA might provoke a riot elsewhere.
> You seem to think that people should have carte blanche to do as they
> wish, as long as they couch it in the guise of "art." While nobody would
> disagree with the fact that there has been an alarming rise in
> unwarranted censorship
-----In all honesty, had I been at that show ( I
would have, if my band hadn't been playing a show
that night), I would have been severely disturbed.
I appreciate theatrics and shock value, but this is
too far and too blunt. I'm a fan of Rozz's
Christian death, Shadow Project, Daucus Karota.
But using Nazi imagery is well, trite and truely
offensive. It's been done alot and in varying
ways. Maybe it's just because I'm ethnically, but
not religiously, jewish. I know that if i had been
there, I would have been pissed and damn well
would've liked to lynch his ass. Our genre is
known for using anti-christian and controvesial
imagery to a large extent, and I'm no exception.
One can argue the value of Christianity, of
Satanism, of the gov't, of TV, of drugs, of
suicide, etc. One can't argue that there was any
value to the Holocaust. Rozz wasn't being
artistic, he wasn't being controversial; he's just
a dumbfuck for doing that.
I commend Dancing Ferret for stepping in. Rozz
transgressed the boundaries of shock and
controversy and entered racism. They may have
prevented Rozz from getting his ass kicked (which I
would now like to see, so maybe I shouldn't commend
them ; ) ). There's a fine line between going too
far and being a idiot.
Pain Under Beauty,
J. Decay
steve morrison
DncngFerrt (dncng...@aol.com) wrote:
: Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we have an obligation to our
: customers - the audience. As local promoters, we have to use our best
: judgement as to what might exceed the boundaries of good taste. It's our
: job. What doesn't bat an eyelash in LA might provoke a riot elsewhere.
: by the venue. If we don't give them that simple measure of respect, then
: we may soon find ourselves without a place to hold shows.
hmm, i heard a nasty rumor that if you, dncg patrick, did not agree
with the actions of the management of the club, you would forfeit payment
from the event.
btw, was it -your- idea to pull the plugs, or the management?
just wondering, ofcourse.
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 4-Nov-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
Jordan De...@psu.edu
> transgressed the boundaries of shock and
> controversy and entered racism
You're accusing Rozz Williams of being a racist, just because they had a
nazi flag on stage (during a song from a play about WWII) ?
Michael J Salo
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 4-Nov-96 Re: Rozz and Nazis?! by
> customers - the audience.
I don't like how you're treating the "audience" as one entity (seems a
very nazi mindset to me actually). If any one person decides to take
offense, let them vote with their feet (as several people did).
Shutting down the entire thing because some people (or rather one
person: you) took offense is inexcusable. If I wanted hyper-P.C.
censored "offense free" bullshit I'd stay home and watch the Barney
show, NOT go to a performance headlined by the guy from Christian Death.
Maybe the next "Dancing Ferrets Production" should be Sesame Street Live.
> You seem to think that people should have carte blanche to do as they
> wish, as long as they couch it in the guise of "art."
You seem to think that anything which makes reference to nazism must be
pro-nazi propaganda "in the guise of 'art.'"
> Someone was hired
> to come to this city to do a specific job. They did not perform the job
> they were hired to do. End of story.
I would be interested to read this job description.
> Your continued efforts to cloud the matter coupled with your abusive
> attitude make it apparent that you are not interested in a free exchange
> of logical ideas; you're simply looking for a fight.
But you see, my main point -- censorship really sucks -- exists on a
much higher level than anything you can try to counter with.
> In closing, I suggest that you try promoting a few shows on your own.
> Perhaps then you'll gain some understanding of the issues that are truly
> involved.
If any of these supposed "issues" are relevant at all, you haven't made
them clear yet. You make vague references to the "venue"... are you
going to tell me the venue operators told you to shut it down? (if so,
I'd like their email address so I can send them hate mail too)
Christian Grigis
the mudthing of sector7g wrote:
> Seriously. I have agree here. What happens when DeathInJune come to town
> and want to play Swastikas for Noddy. Where do you draw the line?
> I mean, how is having Women of Sodom perform enamas on stage appropriate,
> but Rozz's satire not? Many people might say wearing black crusty makeup, wearing fake
> fangs and donning a slip to a club is 'inappropriate'.
You are precisely missing the whole point here. If you are a promoter
and
hire Death In June to perform to town, you *know* in advance the style &
imagery
used by the artist, and so do the people who go and see them perform. If
you don't
like it, you stay home.
Rozz's case is different. I have personally seen him performing three
times,
and I own several CDs of his. Could you point out to me any reference to
fascism,
nazism or nazi imagery in any of his previous work or performances?
-Christian
cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com
In article <5560i1$2...@netaxs.com> <556kbr$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <01bbc695$f74bfe40$300d...@pipeline.pipeline> <3277DA...@blackntan.cgisystems.com> <01bbc76c$fc3be640$e90d...@pipeline.pipeline>,
"Terrence J. Gumpper" <tjgu...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> > > Second, that performance stunt Rozz pulled was DIRECTLY from the play
> > > Cabaret which is set in Nazi occupied France.
> >
> > Including Rozz picking up the flag after David had thrown it
> > away, and wrapping himself in it for the next few songs?
> >
> If people knew what the hell Rozz is like or about Christian they would
> find it amusing. Think about it a man who professes not to be heterosexual
> with a Nazi flag. The oxymoron is amusing. I\Nazis are not funny, they are
> Nazi or supporting such beliefs, is a thought wrought only ignorance.
Whether he is a nazi or not is not the point. That is *his* choice.
To deliberatly throw it on unexpecting people's face is what I am
criticizing.
By the way, Terrence, as already mentioned, being gay and supporting
fascist and/or violent ideals are not incompatible.
> > If what happened makes you "laugh your ass off", that's great. That
> > doesn't mean everybody else has to, nor does that make them any less
> > part of "the scene" than you if they don't laugh.
> As for this, the point I was making is if they knew, or even had a clue to
> what is going on, offense would not have been conceived.
I thought I knew at least a bit about Rozz, however I have never seen
references to nazism or usage of nazi imagery in his work. To what extent does
one need to know him to expect this behaviour?
-Christian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
Osiris
On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Michael J Salo wrote:
> If I wanted hyper-P.C.
> censored "offense free" bullshit I'd stay home and watch the Barney
> show, NOT go to a performance headlined by the guy from Christian Death.
Hey! I find Barney to be quite offensive! ;)
> Maybe the next "Dancing Ferrets Production" should be Sesame Street Live.
Oh sure... what with the whole Bert/Ernie thing, and then there's the
lesser-known Big Bird/Mr. Snuffolupogus scandal...
> > Someone was hired
> > to come to this city to do a specific job. They did not perform the job
> > they were hired to do. End of story.
> I would be interested to read this job description.
Wanted: lackey. Sing, goth boy, sing.
"If you'll excuse me... I must seek knowledge and its bastard son, truth."
== Tarik John Dozier =======================================================
aeon...@cryogen.com t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com
===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
Terrence J. Gumpper
Christian wrote:
>
> I thought I knew at least a bit about Rozz, however I have never seen
> references to nazism or usage of nazi imagery in his work. To what extent
does
> one need to know him to expect this behaviour?
>
All right one more time. Here it is. Patrick has every right to protect his
ass, reputation, & venue as a promoter. This point I can not nor will
argue. My argument revolves around free speech. His show was not about
Nazism, fascism, etc. His show is now a cabaret show, which is not very
gothic in essence. The song was from a very renowned play "CABARET". It was
a performance piece. One of those character-role things. As you stated " I
thought I knew at least a bit about Rozz, however I have never seen
references to nazism or usage of nazi imagery in his work." I agree with
this as will most Rozz/CD fans. This point proves what I stated earlier
regarding the performance piece. The ques. of Rozz being a Nazi has been
answered "NO". Now the real ques.: did he have the right to do YES he did.
However, should he have been courteous enough to warn Patrick ahead of
time? In my opinion yes. This question is the one to be asked by everyone &
can only be answered by & for oneself.
The real question deals with the simple act of courteousness that could
have stop this whole psycho-dramatic tizzy everyone is wrapped up in. I
really think this thread has gone on to long. I hope this post will put
this issue to rest. Personally, I find it annoying. All it is doing is
dividing us as a sub-culture.
A. Dominy-Cusraque
Osiris <t-do...@staff.uiuc.edu> with Muppet Dirt:
>On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Michael J Salo wrote:
>> Maybe the next "Dancing Ferrets Production" should be Sesame Street Live.
>
>Oh sure... what with the whole Bert/Ernie thing,
Wasn't that "Officially" Denied?
> and then there's the lesser-known Big Bird/Mr. Snuffolupogus scandal...
I _Knew_ He was Gay!
Stay Intact,
- A
<oOo----------<>--------------<Wretched Design>--------------<>----------oOo>
Indeed, This Face A.Dominy-Cusraque
has been Burned by Tears Praefectus
My Lace is Tattered, & I Am On Fire... Cusr...@tiac.net
<oOo--------------<"Purveyors of Elegant Nastiness">---------------oOo>
Phil Jeffcock
: >What, did you people hand him fucking guidelines as to exactly how he is
: >supposed to perform? How about you keep your greasy promoter hands out
: >of it, and leave the performance up to the ARTIST?
: Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we have an obligation to our
: customers - the audience. As local promoters, we have to use our best
: judgement as to what might exceed the boundaries of good taste. It's our
: job. What doesn't bat an eyelash in LA might provoke a riot elsewhere.
: It's also our job to ensure that nothing violates the rules imposed on us
: by the venue. If we don't give them that simple measure of respect, then
: we may soon find ourselves without a place to hold shows.
I've done my utmost to stay out of this debacle so far, but enough is enough!
It seems clear to me that Dancing Ferrets didn't do their research before they
booked Rozz. Rozz has used Nazi imagery before (for whatever reason) on his
album covers, gig flyers and in his lyrics. At a gig in Scotland earlier in
the year with Gitane (which I attended), he went off stage whilst Gitane was
performing solo and came back on with new make-up, including a Swastica in
the middle of his forehead. The promoter there didn't shut down the gig and
start crying wolf. Basically, although you have given every impression on this
newsgroup before that you are Rozz William's best pal you don't have a single
clue about him. Clearly the claim on your homepage of "We love music,
especially the music we book!" is rubbish - you have no idea about Rozz.
Before you book an artist in future: DO YOUR RESEARCH. Rozz is widely known to
be a contravertial artist and wrapping himself in a Swastica flag hardly
registers a blip on the scale of contravertial compared to some of his other
antics.
I suspect that if you book Rozz Williams a good proportion of the audience
are going to be fans, therefore they would have understood his theatrics.
Thus, you're not even upholding your self-stated obligation to the audience.
If I had travelled miles and paid good money to go see Rozz, a show I would
have been looking forward to with great anticipation for weeks, and the show
was cancelled half way through I would have been exceedingly pissed off!
I trust that YOU compensated the audience for ruining their night too?
: You seem to think that people should have carte blanche to do as they
: wish, as long as they couch it in the guise of "art." While nobody would
: disagree with the fact that there has been an alarming rise in
: unwarranted censorship of artistic expression in this country, the fact
: remains that you are deliberately confusing the issue. Someone was hired
: to come to this city to do a specific job. They did not perform the job
: they were hired to do. End of story.
Surely people attending any event should make some attempt to discover that
it is appropriate to their tastes and that they won't be offended. If some
small minority of the audience can't be bothered to do their research too,
then that is up-to them. I suspect that this wasn't the case - that the
vast majority of the audience weren't offended, they were there for Rozz.
Rozz is a long standing, widely known and widely loved figure in this scene
and most of the audience would be there just for him, not for the off-chance
of some dreary experience.
Since you say that Rozz was hired to do a specific job I assume that you have
a contract signed by Rozz (or an appropriate agent) in which these terms and
conditions, i.e. no Nazi imagery, are clearly layed down which you a prepared
to share with us. Otherwise I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on. When
you say elsewhere that his "employment was terminated" I take it that this
means you didn't pay Rozz for the entertainment he did provide that evening?
I would be very interested in having these questions answered in the public
domain, since you have been so eager to use this medium to publicise your
events in the past.
: In closing, I suggest that you try promoting a few shows on your own.
: Perhaps then you'll gain some understanding of the issues that are truly
: involved.
Oh, life as a promotor, its sooo difficult. If you can't hack it get another
job. In the meantime I suggest that you get real and start doing some
research on who you book in future.
Phil
--
Phil Jeffcock (ph...@bradford.ac.uk)
Computer Centre, University of Bradford, Bradford, UK. +44.274.383317.
Kevin O' Gorman
dncng...@aol.com (DncngFerrt) writes:
>Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we have an obligation to our
>customers - the audience. As local promoters, we have to use our best
>judgement as to what might exceed the boundaries of good taste.
Surely as promoters, your job is to facilitate artists who want to play
in your locality (leaving aside motives like profit). After making the
decision to help said performer, I very much doubt that you should be
taking a critical role.
>You seem to think that people should have carte blanche to do as they
>wish, as long as they couch it in the guise of "art."
You seem to think that you're the one who decides what is and isn't art.
Which is the better viewpoint?
>In closing, I suggest that you try promoting a few shows on your own.
>Perhaps then you'll gain some understanding of the issues that are truly
>involved.
Been there, done that, kept a t-shirt. I've endured some performances that
I thought were truly awful, apologised to owners of venues for the on-stage
antics of punk-rockers with loose sphincters, but would NEVER tell a band
what show I wanted them to do, or kill the gig if they didn't fall in line.
K.
-
--
"we know who you are/i read your palm while you/were sleeping/and i read
through your diary/and the secrets you've been keeping"- rhp
\ GoNQ TPAd PMo M3 C6o a20- b71 g7L w7T r8ebIs s50 Rz Sr N0693 Lie -v2.5 /
\_{http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~spidey/index.html}---{spi...@maths.tcd.ie}__/
Christian Grigis
Phil Jeffcock wrote:
> It seems clear to me that Dancing Ferrets didn't do their research before they
> booked Rozz. Rozz has used Nazi imagery before (for whatever reason) on his
> album covers, gig flyers and in his lyrics. At a gig in Scotland earlier in
Could you please be more specific on that, and give references on
which album covers etc. ?
-Christian
Lilith
Michael J Salo (sa...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Dncng...@aol.com
: > Unfortunately, we can't do that, because we have an obligation to our
: > customers - the audience.
Some of whom came from very far away, and paid good money TO SEE ROZZ
PERFORM!
: person: you) took offense is inexcusable. If I wanted hyper-P.C.
: censored "offense free" bullshit I'd stay home and watch the Barney
: show, NOT go to a performance headlined by the guy from Christian Death.
hear, hear!
: > Someone was hired
: > to come to this city to do a specific job. They did not perform the job
: > they were hired to do. End of story.
: I would be interested to read this job description.
Ditto! As a booker of bands myself, I was SHOCKED as hell to come back
from vacation and read about this fiasco! Especially since I've heard
great things about Dancing Ferret in the past.
If I and my boyfriend hadn't been going to the UK, we'd have gone to the
Rozz show.
Anyhow, when one books a band, they are hired to come perform THEIR ART.
Not your art. A performer is not a little puppet. What, if you booked
say, Lycia for a goth night and they decided to perform wearing pink
polkadots, would you shut them down for breach of contract? No! You hired
the band, and they have the right do do whatever the hell they want, EVEN
IF ITS NOT WHAT YOU EXPECTED AND YOU DONT LIKE IT!
within reasonable measures of SAFETY, not offensiveness. (Incidentally,
it doesn't soud very offensive to me. Especially not when non-gothic,
MAINSTREAM goddamn POP bands like Marilyn Manson are sodomizing each
other on stage and such!)
: > In closing, I suggest that you try promoting a few shows on your own.
: > Perhaps then you'll gain some understanding of the issues that are truly
: > involved.
I am a promoter. I book bands. Your actions sound indefensible.
-althea
dncng...@aol.com
s...@red.seas.upenn.edu (steve morrison)
>btw, was it -your- idea to pull the plugs, or the management?
The management informed that they were pulling the plug, and why. I told
them that we supported that decision.
--Patrick--
Dancing Ferret Concerts -- Gothic, Industrial, Ethereal and Vampire entertainment in Philadelphia
For general info, email Fer...@Ferret.Com or visit http://www.ferret.com
Generally speaking, we don't have tour schedules, only info on Philadelphia shows.
Jennifer Bamber-Repcik
Christian Grigis <cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com> wrote:
> Could you please be more specific on that, and give references on
>which album covers etc. ?
>-Christian
On just about every Premature Ejaculation and Heltir release, which I
might add were mostly put out by Triple X records. It galls me that
Triple X claims that "Rozz has never done anything like this in the
past". Theresa, who as far as I knew, was Rozz's PR director at Triple
X, has actually participated in numerous Los Angeles area Heltir gigs
where the swastika flag was prominently displayed on stage ALONG WITH
an American flag, several large cut-out's of dollar signs, and
pictures of deformed children --examples of what Rozz thinks of as
inflammatory imagery. Perhaps Patrick Ferret was trying to save his
hide when he said that about Triple X, but the fact is Triple X damn
well knows that Rozz has had a swasti-fetish for some time now.
The other interesting thing that Patrick (or someone) noted was that
David E Williams did not know about the little flag performance and
was not happy about it. This is also bull. David has also been known
to use Nazi imagery on his records (notably the 7", 'Triumph of the
Williams') and he and Rozz both agreed to perform the song from
"Cabaret" While Rozz does have a banner with a swastika, the flag in
question actually belonged to David.
By the way, Patrick didn't pay Rozz, but he paid David.
Endymion55
Not to play down the significance of the Holocaust or anything like that,
but this conversation is getting just a little silly. I mean, it's hardly
as relevant as whether or not Tori Amos is gothic and all that other stuff
we go on about.
But seriously, it's silly, and the rhetoric is getting silly. Here's the
basic summary and then can we be done with it, please?
Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> is pissed off about censorship,
which is a good thing to be pissed off about. This isn't a case of that.
Rozz knew he wasn't supposed to do what he did, but he chose to break the
rules, and like anyone who breaks the rules, he should have been prepared
for the consequences. When you ask Mom & Dad if you can have a party, and
they say "Yes, but no smoking" what would you do if one of your friends
came in and lit up? Of course, you'd say "Put that out" and if they
didn't you'd tell them to leave. You're not going to argue with Mom & Dad
that your friend has a right to smoke if he wants to. If you're silly
enough to do that, the end result is going to be: end of party, and no
more parties. Mom & Dad in this case is the club, in case you missed it.
If the promoter books acts that offend the club, guess what? No more
shows. Why should the poor schlubs in Philly lose what seems to be their
only club for shows - so Rozz Williams can dance around in a Nazi flag?
Who is that being fair to?
dncng...@aol.com (DncngFerrt) is pissed off because Rozz Williams put a
Nazi flag on stage and made him and the club look bad. Come on, be for
real. How many people do you think even know what a promoter is or what
they do? Besides, from what I hear, the club people and you guys got on
stage and made it clear that you didn't have anything to do with it. Sure,
maybe some people who left before that didn't hear it, but they are going
to remember Rozz doing his thing, not the club or the promoter or anything
like that. Yes, it sucks that the plug got pulled early on your big show,
but who pulled the plug? The club should have been more understanding
that you weren't prepared for what took place, and been more graceful
about the incident. I think you lost more points for the plug having been
pulled than for what Rozz did.
Jordan Decay <jsh...@psu.edu> is pissed off because he is personally
offended by what Rozz did. I don't know how much offense you can take if
you weren't really there, but at least this guy is up front with what he's
saying. I don't think beating the shit out of Rozz would be a
constructive way to voice your dissent - I think if your offended, the
best course of action is to request a refund and complain to the
management. It's also alot more legal.
"Terrence J. Gumpper" <tjgu...@pipeline.com> is pissed off because there
are too many newcomers to the gothic scene and is apparently friends with
several of the people arguing on this thread, doesnt want to piss any of
them off but still likes Rozz. I'm not sure what to say about that but a
point in his favor is that he's sick of the discussion too.
the Albatross <tpa...@fix.net> is pissed off because people feed stale
bread to the birds. That just speaks for itself.
Me? Not that it matters but I don't much care one way or the other.
We're much more jaded here in the City, and I think someone probably could
take a wizz on the audience here and still not get yanked off stage. I
can see valid points on all sides of the discussion but I don't think
anyone really wants to discuss anymore, they just want to fight.
Which is silly.
+~~Endymion~~+
"Thou hast lips...."
dncng...@aol.com
Michael J Salo <sa...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I don't like how you're treating the "audience" as one entity (seems a
>very nazi mindset to me actually). If any one person decides to take
>offense, let them vote with their feet (as several people did).
"If they don't like what Michael J. Salo likes, let 'em go home."
>Shutting down the entire thing because some people (or rather one
>person: you) took offense is inexcusable. If I wanted hyper-P.C.
>censored "offense free" bullshit I'd stay home and watch the Barney
>show, NOT go to a performance headlined by the guy from Christian Death.
We're not in the business of being "PC," as I've tried to explain before.
Is Rozz Williams incapable of performing without a Swastika flag on stage?
None of the other bands needed a Swastika flag to perform, and people
enjoyed their peformance. If the answer is yes, he's incapable of
performing without a Swastika flag, then it's a sad day, and what's left
to discuss?
If the answer is no, it's not an essential element of his performance,
then why should people who find it offensive have to put up with it? Why
should they be forced to leave as you suggest? The vast majority of the
people (for whom you do not speak, incidentally), did not come for the
purpose of seeing someone wrap himself up in a Nazi flag. It was
unnecessary and served no real purpose other than to shock, offend, and
intimidate.
If you're ever hiring, let me know. I'd love to work for someone who
thinks that employees should be able to do whatever they want to do, no
matter how offensive, and still get to keep their job.
>You seem to think that anything which makes reference to nazism must be
>pro-nazi propaganda "in the guise of 'art.'"
If you bothered to read at all, you wouldn't be so misinformed. When
placed in context, there are many references to nazism (e.g World War II
moveis, just for starters) that are obviously not pro-nazi propaganda...as
I've said.
>But you see, my main point -- censorship really sucks -- exists on a
>much higher level than anything you can try to counter with.
We've already agreed with your main point - censorship really does suck.
So if that's your main point, and we agree on it, why is this discussion
continuing?
>If any of these supposed "issues" are relevant at all, you haven't made
>them clear yet.
If you had any experience in the field you're discussing, they'd already
be clear. Do you have any idea what's involved in getting an establishment
that serves liquor to put on an all-ages show? Complicate that further by
telling the club that most of the people who attend will be dressed in all
black, wearing chains, fangs, spikes, leather, latex, etc. If you even
get that far, come back and continue this discussion.
>You make vague references to the "venue"... are you going to tell me the
>venue operators told you to shut it down?
As was stated previously, the venue shut the show down and informed us of
the decision and why it was made. We supported and still support that
decision.
You're still clouding the entire issue. It's not a free speech issue.
We're not talking about hiring the Electric Hellfire Club and then booting
them for singing Satanic lyrics. We're not talking about booking Marilyn
Manson and then pulling the plug because they sing about pedophilia.
We're talking about someone coming way out of left field with something,
being warned not to do it, and doing it anyway. According to the Director
of Publicity at Rozz's label, he'd never done anything like this before.
It's not what we expected, and not what the majority of the audience
expected. How is this a free speech issue?
Terrence J. Gumpper
Endymion55 <endym...@aol.com> wrote in article
\
> "Terrence J. Gumpper" <tjgu...@pipeline.com> is pissed off because
there
> are too many newcomers to the gothic scene and is apparently friends with
> several of the people arguing on this thread, doesnt want to piss any of
> them off but still likes Rozz. I'm not sure what to say about that but a
> point in his favor is that he's sick of the discussion too.
I don't mind newcomers. However, I don't like ignorant ones who think they
know it all.
All right one more time. Here it is. Patrick has every right to protect his
ass, reputation, & venue as a promoter. This point I can not nor will
argue. However, Patrick, next time do your homework. Rozz loves
controversy!
Christian Grigis
Terrence J. Gumpper wrote:
(...)
[Note: Didn't that exact same message of yours appear in the discussion
already? :-) ]
I tend to agree that there is not much more to say to the question.
The whole point of the discussion turns around a matter of good taste,
common sense and courteousness, all of them having been shown to be
lacking
on Rozz's side, which provocated (justified in my opinion) reactions.
If that is so difficult to understand for some people, what can
we do?
-Christian
Kevin O' Gorman
Christian Grigis <cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com> writes:
> Rozz's case is different. I have personally seen him performing three
>times,
>and I own several CDs of his. Could you point out to me any reference to
>fascism,
>nazism or nazi imagery in any of his previous work or performances?
Samples in the beginning of Iconologia and the cover and content of
Every King A Bastard Son spring to mind - and I'm not even a completist.
Lilith
Jennifer Bamber-Repcik (marq...@primenet.com) wrote:
: The other interesting thing that Patrick (or someone) noted was that
: David E Williams did not know about the little flag performance and
: was not happy about it. This is also bull. David has also been known
: to use Nazi imagery on his records (notably the 7", 'Triumph of the
: Williams') and he and Rozz both agreed to perform the song from
: "Cabaret" While Rozz does have a banner with a swastika, the flag in
: question actually belonged to David.
: By the way, Patrick didn't pay Rozz, but he paid David.
Pretty interesting.
Pretty disgusting, to ask someone to come out thousands of miles and not
pay them because you didn't LIKE their performance.
I really hope Rozz had a written contract, so he can sue both Dancing
Ferret and the venue.
If there are any OTHER PA promoters who are interested in having me refer
some gothic bands who may be coming to the US in the future, please let
me know, as I'll be looking to set up some mini-tours, and have NO
interest in referring anyone to Dancing Ferret.
-althea
dncng...@aol.com
lil...@dorsai.org (Lilith) wrote:
>Not your art. A performer is not a little puppet. What, if you booked
>say, Lycia for a goth night and they decided to perform wearing pink
>polkadots, would you shut them down for breach of contract? No!
Having Lycia play in pink polkadots does not offend the audience. It
doesn't make anyone fear for their personal safety. It doesn't risk us
losing our venue. There's no comparison. We've had people do unexpected
"non gothic" stuff before, e.g. the Swans playing obnoxious 50s country
music between sets. It pissed off our audience big time and killed the
ambience, but we didn't pull the plug.
>You hired the band, and they have the right do do whatever the hell they
want, >EVEN IF ITS NOT WHAT YOU EXPECTED AND YOU DONT LIKE IT!
>within reasonable measures of SAFETY, not offensiveness.
And if skinheads in the audience decided that they must be welcome there
since the headliner was wrapped in a Nazi flag, and started moshing and
sieg hieling and kicking ass (not that any Nazi skins would ever do that)?
One of the factors that led to the venue's decision to pull the plug was,
of course, safety.
You cite Marilyn Manson. I would not have placed Marilyn Manson at that
venue. Nobody who attended a Marilyn Manson show would see anything other
than what they expected to see.
dncng...@aol.com
Thanks to an AOL crash, I can't attribute the quote, but someone @ a U.K.
address said something about doing research, to the effect that we should
have known he would do it.
As stated before, the Director of Publicity at Rozz's label says he is not
aware of Rozz ever having done that before. We booked the Rozz & Gitane
show you cite and he did nothing of the sort here.
If his own label wasn't aware of it, how should we be expected to be aware
of it? Many people, Rozz fans among them, who attended the show were also
not expecting this and were disappointed by what he did, to say the least.
[P]
dncng...@aol.com
marq...@primenet.com (Jennifer Bamber-Repcik) writes:
>It galls me that Triple X claims that "Rozz has never done anything like
this in >the past".
[cut]
>Perhaps Patrick Ferret was trying to save his hide when he said that
about >Triple X, but the fact is Triple X damn well knows that Rozz has
had a >swasti-fetish for some time now.
This came from Bruce Duff, Director of Publicity at Triple X Records.
>The other interesting thing that Patrick (or someone) noted was that
>David E Williams did not know about the little flag performance and
>was not happy about it. This is also bull.
Why don't you ask David himself? David says he warned Rozz not to do it,
but Rozz wanted to do it anyway. His exact words to Rozz were "I do this
under duress." I have booked David before and seen David play before, but
have never seen him display a swastika flag on stage.
dncng...@aol.com
marq...@primenet.com (Jennifer Bamber-Repcik) wrote:
>By the way, Patrick didn't pay Rozz, but he paid David.
You are incorrect.
Rozz already received 50% of his salary. There has been discussion between
the label and the venue concerning the balance.
--P--
Java G
In article <55rjgu$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, endym...@aol.com (Endymion55)
writes:
|>Not to play down the significance of the Holocaust or anything like that,
|>but this conversation is getting just a little silly. I mean, it's hardly
|>as relevant as whether or not Tori Amos is gothic and all that other stuff
|>we go on about.
Well, I'm no nazi, but anyone who knows the slightest jewish history knows
that they were pretty set on butchering other nations, simply because "god"
told them to. Hows that any different to germans killing jews because "hitler"
told them to?
Seems to me that jews are every bit as bad as nazis themselves,
even today what with the palestinian situation.
--
/** Java G <hamm...@meng.ucl.ac.uk>
* Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
* http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
* "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */
Gwendolyn R Schmidt
: btw, was it -your- idea to pull the plugs, or the management?
Frankly, from what *I* saw that night... it was the audience virtually
POURING out the door that prompted Patrick to say that the act was offensive.
The management also told Patrick to shut him up merely for their own "rep".
Either way, Patrick had to respond.
--
Gwendolyn R. Schmidt (grs...@pitt.edu)
aka:
Kathleen DeMoire, Ventrue Primogen of Pittsburgh, Camarilla #9602-037
Vampyra Daisy, co-founder of the internet chat service Resort
Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeotch by the one and only Hyper Jeff!
"Any way you look at it, all the information that a person accumalates in
the span of a lifetime is just a drop in the bucket."
-Bateau, Ghost In the Shell
Gwendolyn R Schmidt
: gothic in essence. The song was from a very renowned play "CABARET". It was
I was there for the song "Cabaret". He then sang a really awful song
from the 80's that had nothing to do with Cabaret. THUS, the songs following
the Cabaret performance had nothing to do with Cabaret. I left right after
that, and it was soon after I left that he was dancing around on stage wearing
the flag.
Excuse me... what is that expressing?
Jennifer Bamber-Repcik
dncng...@aol.com wrote:
>marq...@primenet.com (Jennifer Bamber-Repcik) wrote:
>You are incorrect.
>--P--
Sorry, but Rozz maintains he was not paid.
-JBR-
Phil Jeffcock
Christian Grigis (cgr...@blackntan.cgisystems.com) wrote:
: Phil Jeffcock wrote:
: > It seems clear to me that Dancing Ferrets didn't do their research before they
: > booked Rozz. Rozz has used Nazi imagery before (for whatever reason) on his
: > album covers, gig flyers and in his lyrics. At a gig in Scotland earlier in
: Could you please be more specific on that, and give references on
: which album covers etc. ?
Rozz Williams - Neue Sachlichkeit - has Hitler youth pictures on the CD foldout
and also on the rear cover.
Rozz Williams - Every King A Bastard Son - Has a swastica on the front cover.
Premature Ejaculation - Estimating the Time of Death - Has a Swastica on the
front cover. This album is on Triple XXX, his current label.
I will provide urls to other examples when I have more time and my web server
is back up.
I think part of the problem is that people book Rozz Williams and expect him
to play Only Theatre of Pain. Christian Death is only a small part of many
projects which Rozz has been involved in. Time has moved on, the world has
moved on and so has Rozz.
Phil
Phil Jeffcock
Endymion55 (endym...@aol.com) wrote:
: But seriously, it's silly, and the rhetoric is getting silly. Here's the
: basic summary and then can we be done with it, please?
I dont think we should let this one go until we have had some answers.
The issues for me are those I raised earlier, which Dancing Ferrets have
chosen to ignore:
1) Did Dancing Ferrets specifically draw up a contract with Rozz or an approved
agent before the gig which clearly stated no Nazi imagery.
2) Did Dancing Ferrets refund the audience after stopping the show?
3) Did Dancing Ferrets pay Rozz for his work that evening, for flying 3000
miles etc?
Patrick - you have been very egar to defend your actions re-Nazi imagery.
Prove to us you weren't actually in the wrong as promotor. If you don't respond
then the whole of alt.gothic should assume the answer to the above three
questions is NO and people should, in my humble opinion, boycott your events.
Phil
Phil Jeffcock
dncng...@aol.com wrote:
: Thanks to an AOL crash, I can't attribute the quote, but someone @ a U.K.
: address said something about doing research, to the effect that we should
: have known he would do it.
It was me :)
: As stated before, the Director of Publicity at Rozz's label says he is not
: aware of Rozz ever having done that before. We booked the Rozz & Gitane
: show you cite and he did nothing of the sort here.
Obviously the director of publicity at Triple X is asleep as they have
published 2 CD covers featuring Rozz which contain Nazi symbolism.
When Rozz came back on stage in Edinburgh with a Swastica painted on his
forehead I immediately saw the irony and thought it was pretty funny really.
: If his own label wasn't aware of it, how should we be expected to be aware
: of it? Many people, Rozz fans among them, who attended the show were also
: not expecting this and were disappointed by what he did, to say the least.
Well, they're not really fans if they didn't expect it - maybe they are fans
of Christian Death or Shadow Project, but they've not followed Rozz's full
career or they would know that he has done this before, and, more to the point,
they would have understood what he was doing.
Phil
dncng...@aol.com
>>You are incorrect.
>>Rozz already received 50% of his salary. There has been discussion
>>between the label and the venue concerning the balance.
>Sorry, but Rozz maintains he was not paid.
>-JBR-
Sorry, but you're still incorrect. As you weren't there (and I was), I
don't think you're in a position to say what did or didn't happen.
--P--
dncng...@aol.com
P.J.Je...@bradford.ac.uk (Phil Jeffcock) wrote:
>Endymion55 (endym...@aol.com) wrote:
>: But seriously, it's silly, and the rhetoric is getting silly. Here's
the
>: basic summary and then can we be done with it, please?
>I dont think we should let this one go until we have had some answers.
>The issues for me are those I raised earlier, which Dancing Ferrets have
>chosen to ignore:
I wasn't ignoring your questions - I just feel as though I've been over
this ground a thousand times already. I'll answer one more time, though.
>1) Did Dancing Ferrets specifically draw up a contract with Rozz or an
>approved agent before the gig which clearly stated no Nazi imagery.
The contract we sent (which was never signed and returned, not that it
matters) does not specifically say "no Nazi imagery." It also does not
specifically prohibit flinging flaming feces at the audience, urinating on
the sound equipment, burning a cross onstage, or ejaculating on the
security guards. However, Rozz was warned before the gig by David and his
band that the imagery would be grossly inappropriate for the venue and
that it would cause trouble. Rozz insisted on doing it anyway, to which
David said "I do this under duress." During the performance, the venue
asked that the flag be taken down; David removed it. At this point, Rozz
is now well aware that the flag is out of bounds by the venue rules. A
few songs later, he picks it back up again and that's when the plug is
pulled.
>2) Did Dancing Ferrets refund the audience after stopping the show?
It was a festival bill, but more significantly, we had *zero* requests for
refunds, no kidding.
>3) Did Dancing Ferrets pay Rozz for his work that evening, for flying
3000
>miles etc?
Already answered.
>Prove to us you weren't actually in the wrong as promotor. If you don't
>respond then the whole of alt.gothic should assume the answer to the
above >three questions is NO and people should, in my humble opinion,
boycott your >events.
I wasn't aware we were getting such a big draw from the UK. But
seriously, I've answered your questions. I'm well aware that the gothic
crowd is largely jaded and that many people see the whole Nazi flag issue
as No Big Deal. The problem is, there are enough people who are really
offended by it (and more importantly, threatened by it) that it's an issue
I can't just ignore or shrug off.
Really, the overriding issue is this: there are rules at the venue. I
know, rules suck, and it would be great if I could just put whatever I
wanted on stage and not worry about it, but hey, this is real life, and
there are going to be rules. The venue is owned by a Catholic family of
Lebanese descent. Through working with them (and observing other shows at
their venue) I've been made aware of what is and isn't appropriate to them
according to their personal standards, and it is their right as owners of
the venue to create and maintain those standards. Free speech and other
issues aside, the bottom line is that if I violate those standards (i.e.
if one of my artists does), then I'm not going to be able to produce shows
at that venue any more - which is currently the only venue in Philly
willing to do all-ages goth/industrial shows.
I did not book Rozz with the expectation that he'd do anything of the
sort, and we've been over that aspect already. Rozz, as a veteran
performer, is well aware that different venues (and different cities) will
have different standards as to what is permissible and what isn't. He is
also aware that there are consequences to breaking those rules. He was
made aware of the standards and chose not to respect them. The venue
chose not to continue his performance. For the record, I support that
decision, but even if I didn't, there is nothing I could have said or done
at that point that would have convinced the venue to allow him to continue
his show.
Rozz's performance would not have suffered had he chosen to respect the
venue's wishes and do away with the flag. It was not an integral part of
what he was doing. He did what he did with his eyes open, and to suggest
that he is in no way responsible for the consequences of his actions seems
a bit absurd.
To someone not conversant with all the issues, I can see where some jaded
folks might see this as an overreaction to a trifling issue. I think if
you include my perspective and carefully consider it, you'll see that it's
not so cut-and-dried.
I hope this answers your concerns to your satisfaction. I'm not sure if
I'll be returning to this thread as there's not much else to say, so if
you have additional questions, please email directly.
--Patrick--
Staffan Friberg
Java G writes:
[I won't reply to this... I won't... I won't... oops! too late.]
> Well, I'm no nazi, but anyone who knows the slightest jewish history
> knows that they were pretty set on butchering other nations, simply
> because "god" told them to. Hows that any different to germans killing
> jews because "hitler" told them to?
As for killing people, no, no difference at all. If you kill someone, that
person is dead.
Hitler, however, wanted the jews dead just because they were jews that's
what's so horrible with the holocaust. And, mind you, almost half of the
people who perished in the concentration camps and elsewhere weren't jews.
> Seems to me that jews are every bit as bad as nazis themselves,
> even today what with the palestinian situation.
I believe that's called an illegal generalisation.
There has always been wars, that's how countries come to be and borders are
laid out. If you're going to bash just the jews for fighting you'd better
get back to the history books for a while.
There are actually jews who want to make peace with the arabs, if you
haven't noticed.
--
Staffan Friberg (st...@rabbit.augs.se) Sweden
GothCode 2.0:
GoPS+3TJt(NrZ)B4/18Bk!cNRs--PSh(MoSa)V+sM++ZGo(GnNr--)C+2p3pa27-n
-Ob:-H174g+LmEa2+?w+Lr++D--!%H+PR(MoSh)s10k+RmSrNnN0890nLse!HdSp1
"Exercise caution when dealing with goths." -- MikeVK
Phil Jeffcock
dncng...@aol.com wrote:
I say this mainly to Patrick, but in the presence everyone on alt.gothic:
You make two very interesting statements:
I wrote:
: >Prove to us you weren't actually in the wrong as promotor. If you don't
: >respond then the whole of alt.gothic should assume the answer to the
: >above three questions is NO and people should, in my humble opinion,
: >boycott your events.
dncng...@aol.com wrote:
: I wasn't aware we were getting such a big draw from the UK.
: Free speech and other
: issues aside, the bottom line is that if I violate those standards (i.e.
: if one of my artists does), then I'm not going to be able to produce shows
: at that venue any more - which is currently the only venue in Philly
: willing to do all-ages goth/industrial shows.
The bottom line from these two statements tells me you are only interested
in your personal well-being and your source of income. Thus art goes out of
the window - you are in it soley for the money. The statement "big draw from
the UK" clearly says "I'm making no money from you, thus your opinions
count for nothing". What I actually meant, is that everytime you try to
advertise on this newsgroup, I can remind people that you are a cheat and
a liar; that performers will end up not being paid and that the audience may
have their evening ruined, not that I will persuade all my mates not to go.
(As an asside, I think that a golden opportunity has been missed here. The
show is very likely to be unique. It should have been recorded and put out
on CD - I would have bought it and I'm sure others would too.)
The second one also clearly states that you will side with the venue so you
don't cut off your own source of income.
: The venue is owned by a Catholic family of Lebanese descent. Through
: working with them (and observing other shows at
: their venue) I've been made aware of what is and isn't appropriate to them
: according to their personal standards, and it is their right as owners of
: the venue to create and maintain those standards.
This statement tells me you just don't have a clue, and stands out as a
blatent contradiction that you knew about Rozz's career, that he may offend
the venue owners, yet you did nothing. I'm sure if Rozz had happened to
choose anti-Catholic symbolism rather than anti-Jewish symbolism, which
he has also done in Christian Death (which you say you are familiar with) they
would have pulled the plug even faster. Therefore, you knew full well that
the owners may censor Rozz's show, but you booked him anyway. By your own
admission you made no attempt to inform Rozz that he may face censorship
until he had flown 3000 miles and was about to go on stage. If I were the
performer I would be very very angry at that point. All this contradicts
Rozz's manager's statement that he was not informed at all and that the gig
was not stopped because of the flag.
: I did not book Rozz with the expectation that he'd do anything of the
: sort, and we've been over that aspect already. Rozz, as a veteran
: performer, is well aware that different venues (and different cities) will
: have different standards as to what is permissible and what isn't. He is
: also aware that there are consequences to breaking those rules. He was
: made aware of the standards and chose not to respect them.
Your side of the story is that he was made aware of the standards 5 minutes
before he went on stage, not before he flew to Philadelphia - that hardly
constitutes the basis for a decision for whether to fly 3000 miles with all
the associated effort in planning the act, trying to rehurse with someone
who is 3000 miles away, etc.
: For the record, I support that
: decision, but even if I didn't, there is nothing I could have said or done
: at that point that would have convinced the venue to allow him to continue
: his show.
Everyone can see that you have to say this publicly, even though it may not
be what you believe privately, because you are protecting your source of
income.
: Rozz's performance would not have suffered had he chosen to respect the
: venue's wishes and do away with the flag. It was not an integral part of
: what he was doing.
We have seen testimony from Maria of "The Nursary" that in fact it was an
integral part of his act. The crux of this is the film Cabaret. I suggest you
go see it. Thus you prove yourself wrong again!
: He did what he did with his eyes open, and to suggest
: that he is in no way responsible for the consequences of his actions seems
: a bit absurd.
So you are saying Rozz must be responsible for his actions, re using the flag,
but you are removed from your responsibility, re booking Rozz in the first
place without telling him the score.
: To someone not conversant with all the issues, I can see where some jaded
: folks might see this as an overreaction to a trifling issue. I think if
: you include my perspective and carefully consider it, you'll see that it's
: not so cut-and-dried.
I think you are just lying through your teeth to protect your livelihood,
nothing more.
Actually, far from taking a pro-Nazi stance, Rozz was doing exactly the
opposite. People took it at face value because they do not understand the
wider context.
: I hope this answers your concerns to your satisfaction. I'm not sure if
: I'll be returning to this thread as there's not much else to say, so if
: you have additional questions, please email directly.
You're not returning because you are getting a hammering and you don't want
this public humilliation and bad press for your company to continue for any
longer, not for any other reason. Clearly, your story and that of Rozz via
his manager and testimony from independent witnesses are at odds, and I
know who I believe!
Phil
GERALD J. LA CORTE
: : Free speech and other
: : issues aside, the bottom line is that if I violate those standards (i.e.
: : if one of my artists does), then I'm not going to be able to produce shows
: : at that venue any more - which is currently the only venue in Philly
: : willing to do all-ages goth/industrial shows.
I don't suppose your part of the Philadelphia scene, are you? And I don't
suppose you give two twits if it dries up and blows away. Would you like
the goth scene in your region to stop existing? No, I didn't think so.
Try reading the post "State of the Scene - Philadelphia".
Jay
Jennifer Bamber-Repcik
dncng...@aol.com wrote:
>--P--
This is getting tiring.
You've taken enough of a beating, so I will bow out. But Rozz has been
my best friend for the last 6 years and I have never known him to lie
to me. That is my position.
Jennifer Bamber-Repcik
Terrence J. Gumpper
GERALD J. LA CORTE <l...@hopi.dtcc.edu> wrote
>
> Try reading the post "State of the Scene - Philadelphia".
>
> Jay
>
I can not find this post. If you can will you please forward it to me.
--
Love & Dark Thoughts Always,
Terrence
dncng...@aol.com
>The bottom line from these two statements tells me you are only
interested
>in your personal well-being and your source of income. Thus art goes out
of
>the window - you are in it soley for the money.
You've got me - I promote gothic shows strictly because goth is such a
wildly popular genre and I make such a ton of money off of the dozen or so
goth shows that come through each year. One more payment and that Porsche
is mine!
>The statement "big draw from the UK" clearly says "I'm making no money
>from you, thus your opinions count for nothing".
What is said was "seems kind of silly for someone on the other side of the
Atlantic to threaten a boycott."
>What I actually meant, is that everytime you try to advertise on this
>newsgroup, I can remind people that you are a cheat and
>a liar; that performers will end up not being paid and that the audience
may
>have their evening ruined
At that point I would be compelled to ask if you didn't have something
better to do with your time.
>(As an asside, I think that a golden opportunity has been missed here.
The
>show is very likely to be unique. It should have been recorded and put
out
>on CD - I would have bought it and I'm sure others would too.)
Tell me something I don't already know. We had arranged to have the show
recorded on ADAT and videographed as well, with a view towards trying to
convince Triple X to release it.
>: The venue is owned by a Catholic family of Lebanese descent. Through
>: working with them (and observing other shows at
>: their venue) I've been made aware of what is and isn't appropriate to
them
>: according to their personal standards, and it is their right as owners
of
>: the venue to create and maintain those standards.
>This statement tells me you just don't have a clue, and stands out as a
>blatent contradiction that you knew about Rozz's career, that he may
offend
>the venue owners, yet you did nothing.
How does my stating that the venue owners have rights equate to me not
having a clue?
>By your own admission you made no attempt to inform Rozz that he may face
>censorship until he had flown 3000 miles and was about to go on stage.
If we'd known he was going to do anything that warranted such a response
by the venue, not only would we have warned him, we would simply not have
invited him in the first place.
>: I did not book Rozz with the expectation that he'd do anything of the
>: sort, and we've been over that aspect already. Rozz, as a veteran
>: performer, is well aware that different venues (and different cities)
will
>: have different standards as to what is permissible and what isn't. He
is
>: also aware that there are consequences to breaking those rules. He was
>: made aware of the standards and chose not to respect them.
>Your side of the story is that he was made aware of the standards 5
minutes
>before he went on stage, not before he flew to Philadelphia - that hardly
>constitutes the basis for a decision for whether to fly 3000 miles with
all
>the associated effort in planning the act, trying to rehurse with someone
>who is 3000 miles away, etc.
He had the option of saying "Look, this is integral to my performance, I'm
not a Nazi, here's the context, etc." He certainly could have chosen to
work it out in a reasonable, adult fashion. Instead he chose a childish
"fuck you" and is now unhappy with the result.
>: For the record, I support that decision, but even if I didn't, there
is nothing I >: could have said or done at that point that would have
convinced the venue >: to allow him to continue his show.
>Everyone can see that you have to say this publicly, even though it may
not
>be what you believe privately, because you are protecting your source of
>income.
But, in fact, it IS what I believe privately.
>: Rozz's performance would not have suffered had he chosen to respect the
>: venue's wishes and do away with the flag. It was not an integral part
of
>: what he was doing.
>We have seen testimony from Maria of "The Nursary" that in fact it was an
>integral part of his act. The crux of this is the film Cabaret. I suggest
you
>go see it. Thus you prove yourself wrong again!
I'm uncertain as to what "Nursary" you are referring to. Regardless, I
maintain that the flag was not integral to his performance.
>: He did what he did with his eyes open, and to suggest
>: that he is in no way responsible for the consequences of his actions
seems
>: a bit absurd.
>So you are saying Rozz must be responsible for his actions, re using the
flag,
>but you are removed from your responsibility, re booking Rozz in the
first
>place without telling him the score.
We met our responsibilities and then some.
>I think you are just lying through your teeth to protect your livelihood,
>nothing more.
Then I suppose I'm wasting my time talking to you, aren't I?
>Clearly, your story and that of Rozz via his manager and testimony from
>independent witnesses are at odds, and I know who I believe!
You believe the people who support your opinion, of course.
--P--