I hate beautiful goth bois
Edvamp
course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different women. All of
them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him backrubs, scratched
his neck, played with his hair. Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at the
club, he has the audacity to be depressed. Guys like that need to have my life
for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got. When it
gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much any girl
there, they forget just how fucking awesome that is. I would love to be like
that, even just for awhile. And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it, I'd
rather be shallow than alone.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Bem
I know exactly what you mean. I know most of the beautifull girls
around here and, somehow, they all like me. With some there is even
some cuddling once in a while. But every evening I go home alone. And
that sucks. Big time. But I don't want to be shallow. If I could be
shallow, maybe I would have gotten one home at some point by now...
Sex I can have on my own (sort of), I crave love.
Btw, the worst is when a friend tells you he has been to bed with a
girl you really like, and you just sit there smiling and hoping he
would shut up and go away and die or something.
Bem
--
We are not in the least bit afraid of ruins.
We are going to inherit the earth.
The bourgouise may blast and ruin their world,
before they leave the stage of history,
but we carry a new world in our hearts.
karl...@my-deja.com
You know what Ed? I would trade everything to have been alone and not
have experienced that glimpse of a beautiful relationship. It tears
you up and spits you out. Now it has taken me a year to start
flirting and you know what? I would say that at least 95% of the time
it is successful. But here is the kicker.... you never seem to be
happy or complete because your heart is not in it. You feel like shit,
a slut, a
monster. I would have to say that I would rather receive no attention
then for me just giving some girl a sexy smile and a slow blink. I'm
not saying that I am attractive, but it's all how you play it. Ah I
don't even know why I am rambling about this.
Take Care
Karl Rose
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Miss Simon
news:20000206071043...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> Just a short rant. At the club last night there was this guy I know.
Over the
> course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different women. All
of
> them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him backrubs,
scratched
> his neck, played with his hair. Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at
the
> club, he has the audacity to be depressed. Guys like that need to have my
life
> for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got. When
it
> gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much any girl
> there, they forget just how fucking awesome that is. I would love to be
like
> that, even just for awhile. And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it,
I'd
> rather be shallow than alone.
I *so* know where you are coming from. For most of my life, I have been
sitting almost permenantly in the "friend" category, and on the rare
occasions when I do find someone special, they eventually decide that they
like being friends with me so much they don't want to risk it by trying to
be more. Only once have I found anyone who wanted to be more, and I got so
scared by the idea that someone found me attractive, I fucked it up
deliberately (well, subconsciously anyway) because it didn't fit with my
view of how my life was. I'd got so used to being "just friends" that I
couldn't handle it.
I've even tried being a bastard, to try and escape the "nice guys finish
last" problem, and they just find it funny that I'm acting weird.
To make things feel worse, on of my close female friends started kissing me
on thursday night during our monthly invasion of the local cheesy pop night
at the university, only to find out that she has no interest in a
relationship, she merely wants to be, and I quote, "rampant friends".
Life bites.
Miss Simon
Too miserable to think of a decent sig.
ICQ : 48694959 http://www.geocities.com/lifeloveandlipstick
Luna
Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
I mean sure, for that one night, or two nights, a week -- whatever --
you may not technically be "alone" ... but then it ends, and there you
are again.
I'd go for quality over quantity any day.
But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
>^Luna^<
josie(at)thej-files(dot)com
http://www.thej-files.com
Edvamp
>on thursday night during our monthly invasion of the local cheesy pop night
>at the university, only to find out that she has no interest in a
>relationship, she merely wants to be, and I quote, "rampant friends".
That I could deal with and be a lot happier. The women I hang out with seem
incapable of viewing me in any ways physical or sexual. At least a "friends
with benefits" relationship would alleviate that feeling.
It's kinda what Sam Kinison said about a woman he was seeing wanting to be
friends. "Oh, so you still get to use me as an emotional tampon, tell me your
problems, bitch and moan about other guys, but we won't actually fuck?"
Ever and Always
Edvamp
K.M.S.
> You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
>
> Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
>
> I mean sure, for that one night, or two nights, a week -- whatever --
> you may not technically be "alone" ... but then it ends, and there you
> are again.
Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
>
> I'd go for quality over quantity any day.
Quantity has a quality all its own.
>
> But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
> attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
> gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
>
>
Hmmmm... cause being alone gets tiresome realllllyyy quick.
Koko "who feels the sudden urge to go rip the head off a ken doll" Martin Sama
Edvamp
Yes, it will.
>I mean sure, for that one night, or two nights, a week -- whatever --
>you may not technically be "alone" ... but then it ends, and there you
>are again.
Long term relationships end too. But at least you had something. There is
something to remember.
>I'd go for quality over quantity any day.
I'd rather have something than nothing any day. I'm not choosing quantity
over quality. I'm saying in the absense of quality, quantity will do quite
nicely.
>But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
>attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
>gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Deviancy
"Edvamp" <edv...@aol.comKILLKILL> wrote in message news:20000206172113...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
> I'd rather have something than nothing any day. I'm not choosing quantity
> over quality. I'm saying in the absense of quality, quantity will do quite
> nicely.
>
> >But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
> >attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
> >gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
>
> I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
I'm living proof that you can have a good relationship with a great girl even when you're not pretty. Hell I won't even look in a fucking mirror heh. Just a matter of luck I guess
+Deviancy+
Tiny Human Ferret
<snips>
> Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
> Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have a winner of the coveted "most
astoundingly bitter sarcasm award" for 1Q 2000.
<snips>
--
"We look through a glass but darkly:
What we see is more colored by our beliefs,
than what we believe is colored by what we see."
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/
K.M.S.
> "K.M.S." wrote:
>
> <snips>
>
> > Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
> > Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have a winner of the coveted "most
> astoundingly bitter sarcasm award" for 1Q 2000.
>
My god! Most astoundingly bitter on _alt.gothic_ *gush* *bounce* I'd like
to thank the academy.... ;)
Koko "Who also wants to thank his parents" Martin Sama
Flight (maggot)
Edvamp wrote:
> >But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
> >attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
> >gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
>
> I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Which is the real point. The grass is always fucking greener.
Right now I wish I could go to a club without my girlfriend and not have
to spend half my time deflecting come-ons. Since my girlfriend and I
seldom can go to a club together, it has turned into me seldom going. I
mean guys hit on me all the time out of clubs, but they have the
courtesy to drop you like a hot potato if you don't instantly signal
back to them that you're interested. For some people you can walk into
a GAF club in jeans and a NIN T-shirt and still find themselves
surrounded by shallow vapid clingers. Some people, like me, who go to
clubs to hang out with people and have a good time being social I find
that I pretty much have to avoid chatting with girls I don't know, since
it's *always* interpreted as scamming.
I mean fuck, if I ask someone what they do it's because I want to know
more about them, not because I want to fuck them or am looking for a
life-mate.
Flight
Flight (maggot)
"K.M.S." wrote:
>
> In article <87kktj$7nh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Luna <luna_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
> >
> > Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
> >
> > I mean sure, for that one night, or two nights, a week -- whatever --
> > you may not technically be "alone" ... but then it ends, and there you
> > are again.
>
> Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
> Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
No, surrounded by beautiful people who are either bored with you and
looking for someone they haven't fucked yet, or by clingers who want to
be associated with you since you look cool and do nothing but pump the
most hollow and transient aspect of your self worth into something it
never should have been in the first place.
Hey, I like feeling handsome, but I get really tired of that being a
barrier to getting to know other people. Now that I have a girlfriend
it's especially frustrating that I can't get into a decent conversation
or friendly relationship with someone of the opposite sex (or any sex
that prefers men over women).
People hunting you down and wanting to be with you whether for a night
or a decade simply by virtue of your looks are not something to hold up
as prizes in the self-esteem contest with your ego. Long term
meaningful friendships are, and I have more than a few times found
myself deprived of what could have been a good friend because he/she
couldn't get over the fact that I didn't want our relationship to be
"intimate."
> >
> > I'd go for quality over quantity any day.
>
> Quantity has a quality all its own.
Yes, it leaves you feeling fat and your bowels are all runny.
You start farting a lot and suddenly no one wants to hang out with a
slut (even if you don't sleep with anyone).
> >
> > But I have to admit, being the center of an attractive group's
> > attention can be really nice ... esteem-boosting ... but eventually
> > gets annoying/tiresome/what-have-ya.
> Hmmmm... cause being alone gets tiresome realllllyyy quick.
You missed the point. Being sought due to your looks does not equal
meaningful company. It's possible to be very alone in a crowd. I can't
believe that most people in here haven't experienced that feeling.
Flight
Canticle
Edvamp wrote:
> Just a short rant. At the club last night there was this guy I know. Over the
> course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different women. All of
> them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him backrubs, scratched
> his neck, played with his hair. Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at the
> club, he has the audacity to be depressed. Guys like that need to have my life
> for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got. When it
> gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much any girl
> there, they forget just how fucking awesome that is. I would love to be like
> that, even just for awhile. And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it, I'd
> rather be shallow than alone.
Nothing shallow about it, really, but believe me, the guy was probably
more upset than you at the fact the person he wanted to be with was
simply not interested in him. Being alone chews, but being alone in a
crowd can be just as bad.
Jeff-boy
maat
"Flight (maggot)" wrote:
>
<snip>
> Some people, like me, who go to
> clubs to hang out with people and have a good time being social I find
> that I pretty much have to avoid chatting with girls I don't know, since
> it's *always* interpreted as scamming.
>
> I mean fuck, if I ask someone what they do it's because I want to know
> more about them, not because I want to fuck them or am looking for a
> life-mate.
This is the reason why I am afraid of approaching people in clubs. The
possibility of rejection doesn't bother me nearly so much as this.
At least with parties, it's easier because there are no assumptions in
this direction. Because of that, I can just have a normal conversation
and see where it goes from there.
Would I like to be the center of attention? Of course. But if I was
totally gorgeous I would always be wondering. Especially since I am not
the least bit interested in laying total strangers.
Remember, Edvamp, things are not always what they seem when viewed by
the outside.
--maat
Albatross
"K.M.S." wrote:
> Hmmmm... cause being alone gets tiresome realllllyyy quick.
After my first marriage I wanted to be alone for a very long time.
A
LordKumar
<Wra...@theseed.net> wrote:
> snip
> I *so* know where you are coming from. For most of my
> life, I have been
> sitting almost permenantly in the "friend" category,
> and on the rare
> occasions when I do find someone special, they
> eventually decide that they
> like being friends with me so much they don't want to
> risk it by trying to
> be more. Only once have I found anyone who wanted to
> be more, and I got so
> scared by the idea that someone found me attractive, I
> fucked it up
> deliberately (well, subconsciously anyway) because it
> didn't fit with my
> view of how my life was. I'd got so used to being
> "just friends" that I
> couldn't handle it.
> I've even tried being a bastard, to try and escape the
> "nice guys finish
> last" problem, and they just find it funny that I'm
> acting weird.
> friends started kissing me
> on thursday night during our monthly invasion of the
> local cheesy pop night
> at the university, only to find out that she has no
> interest in a
> relationship, she merely wants to be, and I quote,
> "rampant friends".
> Miss Simon
> Too miserable to think of a decent sig.
> ICQ : 48694959
> http://www.geocities.com/lifeloveandlipstick
Perhaps I'm living in the throes of fear of commitment
(sneer), but I find the concept of being "just friends"
with a woman to be _highly_ appealing. I have several
beautiful, wonderful female friends who fill this role with
me, and I couldn't be happier. To me, a close friend is more
rewarding by far than a romantic relationship. What's that
funny saying.. "Better to have loved and lost than to never
have loved at all" or something.. I say, better to have the
love of a true friend and retain it, than to have loved and
lost (a romantic love). The friends I have and love, while
not as intense a relationship as a lover, I will have for
ever. I look forward to growing older with these people in
my life, of maturing beside them, of someday swapping
stories about our grandchildren.
I dont have any glaring flaws, I'm a handsome guy, nice,
etc. If I wanted to pursue a higher relationship with these
women, there's no reason why I wouldn't succeed. Indeed, two
of them were started in part because of their interest in
me. If I were given the chance, I would change nothing. The
friendships I have are some of the most rewarding,
fulfilling things I've ever experienced.
I've had ONE romantic relationship... we started off as
friends, and it moved into something more over time. We were
best friends as well as lovers. It lasted about 4 and a half
years, but now it's over, and I'm afraid the strain of what
we once had was too much pressure to maintain a friendship.
I lost what was one of my dearest friends.
So. On one hand, I have an intense romantic love
relationship, 4 years, kapput. On the other hand, I have the
lesser (?) love of several friends, 10+ years, and still
going. I choose the latter as more valuable. I'm not saying
I would change the romantic relationship, it was a valuable
learning experience, but in the long run, what I have is
better than what I had.
Sure, I'm human, I get lonely, I crave the "higher" love, I
do the whole crying myself to sleep thing every now and
then. I suppress my irrational physical desires to become
closer to my female friends. If only we weren't made of this
weak flesh... And sometimes, illogically, it hurts to watch
them have relationships with other people. But I'll never
stop being thankful for the beautiful frienships I have.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Flight (maggot)
"K.M.S." wrote:
>
> In article <389E0A39...@clark.net>, kla...@clark.net wrote:
>
> > "K.M.S." wrote:
> >
> > <snips>
> >
> > > Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
> > > Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
> >
> > Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have a winner of the coveted "most
> > astoundingly bitter sarcasm award" for 1Q 2000.
> >
> My god! Most astoundingly bitter on _alt.gothic_ *gush* *bounce* I'd like
> to thank the academy.... ;)
Yes, and while your at it you can take this "most typical and obvious"
whine of the month award for restating the obvious and generally
redundant in a refreshing and slightly more than dull way...
Flight :P
Brazen Angel
to share:
>>I mean sure, for that one night, or two nights, a week -- whatever --
>>you may not technically be "alone" ... but then it ends, and there you
>>are again.
>
> Long term relationships end too. But at least you had something. There is
>something to remember.
Hopefully at the end of a long term relationship you remember real
love and all the things that go with it as opposed to just some cute
chick who wanted to fuck you for a couple of weeks until you both
realized that that was all there was and moved on to another round of
the same thing with different partners.
> I'd rather have something than nothing any day. I'm not choosing quantity
>over quality. I'm saying in the absense of quality, quantity will do quite
>nicely.
You mean you'd rather get laid than have nothing. Try being confident
because it seems to get everyone laid no matter how pretty or ugly
they are.
And I'm sure the beautiful gothbois wonder just like beautiful
gothgirls if the person snogging or fucking them really likes them or
their outsides only. I'm sure they really enjoy being used half the
time or more.
But you know, cross that bridge when you get to it too.
Brazen
"I'd rather be rejected than used because they both amount to
the same thing in the end, but being used takes a lot longer."
- Marilyn vos Savant
The Evil Chemist
> You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
> Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
I equate such relationships to a starving man <woman> eating sand:
It quenches the hunger pangs, but it doesn't offer any sustenence.
The hunger is what drives us to seek sustenence.
The hunger forces is us out to look for what we need.
It has it's purpose.
"Junk food" is always available, but the problem is one gets used to it,
b/c it's accessible.
So you sit idley eating sand and dirt while you slowly die inside, rather
than look for what you really need.
When it comes to relationships:
Everyone complains they haven't found what they are looking for until they
finally do. Everyone makes the wrong decisions until they make the right
one.
The nagging question though is: How soon is now?
jv
The Evil Chemist
> Just a short rant. At the club last night there was this guy I know.
Over the > course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different
women. All of > them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him
backrubs, scratched > his neck, played with his hair. Then when an
ex-girlfriend shows up at the > club, he has the audacity to be depressed.
You may see 5 or 6 beautiful women, but he only sees one. Nothing any of
those 5 or 6 do or say mean anything if you only care about the one
sitting across the bar.
>Guys like that need to have my life for one month and they will then
>truly appreciate what they've got.
Or maybe you can have his life and realize what he "doesn't got."
Maybe this guy was in love.
Love is being elevated to a place humans cannot comprehend and gods can
only envy. And once you fall from that place, it's not much solace kicking
stones on the ground while you look up at the sky remembering where you
once were.
Love is seeing colors you've never seen before and when it's gone,
the memory of those colors burn in your mind. The black & white world just
doesn't hold the same beauty that it did before.
>When it gets too easy for them, when
>they know they can have pretty much any girl there, they forget just
>how fucking awesome that is.
It really isn't that awesome.
> I would love to be like that, even just
>for awhile.
I wish you were like that for awhile, b/c you will prolly realise it isn't
all you hoped it would be. You'll prolly end up posting about how there
are a zillion women to go home with, but none to be with.
You'd still be alone.
I do mean this with the greatest sincerity.
It's a great ego stroke to have people like you even for the wrong
reasons.
But it really doesn't mean anything.
jv
TSM
>Just a short rant. At the club last night there was this guy I know. Over the
>course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different women. All of
>them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him backrubs, scratched
>his neck, played with his hair. Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at the
>club, he has the audacity to be depressed.
Oh come on, Ed.
How the hell do you know what it's like?
You -aren't- him.
Everything anyone can ever
be comes with it's own set of problems.
>Guys like that need to have my life
>for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got.
It might suprise you just
how willing some of these guys
might be to take you up on that.
>When it
>gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much any girl
>there, they forget just how fucking awesome that is. I would love to be like
>that, even just for awhile. And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it, I'd
>rather be shallow than alone.
I know this guy who is, ironically,
my girlfriend's roommate who could
very easily and accurately be described
as a dope-ass chunk of beefcake.
You know what he said to me the other night?
"Damn, sometimes I just wish the girls would
leave me alone. All I want to do is go out and
dance or something and I can't get a moment's peace. . ."
or words to that effect.
Now I'm sure that'll illicit a few eyerolls from
anyone who reads this, but then remember what 'ol Sam said.
Yeah, that bit a few messages down the line about
being used as an emotional tampon.
The chicks don't want -him-,
they want his big square
shoulders and his nice ass.
-Everyone- gets used, Ed.
Everyone.
Everyone also wants what
they can't seem to get.
In your case, it's sex.
In his case, and I shit thee not,
it's the opprotunity to just -talk-
to a woman without her trying to
get sex out of him.
Might sound crazy, but I swear to God it's true.
On that note,
take a moment to realize what you've "got."
>Ever and Always
>Edvamp
--TSM
fuzzy pink satan (also known as skerry)
<jver...@suba01.suba.com> fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>You may see 5 or 6 beautiful women, but he only sees one. Nothing any of
>those 5 or 6 do or say mean anything if you only care about the one
>sitting across the bar.
yes. :|
i came home from a friday night of tarting and just kind of sat here,
staring at my newsreader, and wishing i was curled up sleeping with
Him[1] like i was before, but never will be again.
i can understand how thrilling the concept of a kiss or a thorough
groping is when you don't get that sort of thing very often.
the hunger for it kept me going and writing stories and dreaming
and being happy in a really tragic sort of way.
>Love is being elevated to a place humans cannot comprehend and gods can
>only envy. And once you fall from that place, it's not much solace kicking
>stones on the ground while you look up at the sky remembering where you
>once were.
enter: tears.
>Love is seeing colors you've never seen before and when it's gone,
>the memory of those colors burn in your mind. The black & white world just
>doesn't hold the same beauty that it did before.
i don't mean to add a 'me too' post, but this one really got me where
it counts.
>You'd still be alone.
>I do mean this with the greatest sincerity.
empty calories.
>It's a great ego stroke to have people like you even for the wrong
>reasons.
most certainly. :)
>But it really doesn't mean anything.
>jv
when one is lonely, living it up can lighten your mood and make
life seem interesting again.
and while that may last for a few hours, you'll always come down
because you've just gotten basically everything BUT what you
really really want.
trust him, he's all too correct.
carrie
[1] i know you don't read any threads but the ones you
yourself start, but on the off chance you do see this...
i miss you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://ossuary.net/~skerrella/ - satan's in the la-BOR-a-tory!
delete the thpam to reply. :P
K.M.S.
<mag...@monkeyTRAPbrains.net> wrote:
Oh no I couldn't your "It's so hard to know wether or not somone likes you
just cause your pretty" posting was far more qualified for the award than
any one liner I could toss off.
Koko "oh no it's the cheese police" Martin Sama
Edvamp
>or a decade simply by virtue of your looks are not something to hold up
>as prizes in the self-esteem contest with your ego.
We seem to live in an All or Nothing society. Attractive people complain
because they are perceived as only physical personas with no emotional or
intellectual properties. I complain that people only see me as an intellect or
emotional sounding board with no physical or sexual properties.
I guess it is difficult to look at people as 3-d human beings so we look at
them as archetypes (Jung can blow me). These archetypes are further
strengthened in popular culture.
I like playing the role of the Big Strong Guy. I like playing the role of
the Listener and Counselor. I like playing the role of the Intellectual or
Academic. But just because I fit into the role of those archetypes doesn't
mean I can't also be the Lover.
It's like the time I hung out with a stripper friend of mine at a club just
bullshitting about Nietzsche and Ayn Rand all night. By breaking out of our
roles, we had a really delightful night.
>You missed the point. Being sought due to your looks does not equal
>meaningful company.
I didn't say I wanted every experience to be meaningful company. It would
just be nice to have that variety, those few short relationships that didn't
work out.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
>those 5 or 6 do or say mean anything if you only care about the one
>sitting across the bar.
To a man that's starving, a person eating a hamburger but wanting filet
mignon is obviously missing what he has in front of him.
>Or maybe you can have his life and realize what he "doesn't got."
Yeah, if the day ever comes when I'm complaining about women throwing
themselves at me or I'm having too much sex, kill me. I'm either insane or
being controlled by aliens.
>Maybe this guy was in love.
>Love is being elevated to a place humans cannot comprehend and gods can
>only envy. And once you fall from that place, it's not much solace kicking
>stones on the ground while you look up at the sky remembering where you
>once were.
I don't believe in love. And all the poetry in the world isn't going to
change that.
>It really isn't that awesome.
Yeah, try telling the starving guy mentioned above that eating is
overrated.
>I wish you were like that for awhile, b/c you will prolly realise it isn't
>all you hoped it would be. You'll prolly end up posting about how there
>are a zillion women to go home with, but none to be with.
As I stated earlier, if I ever got like that, coming from the background I
have, kill me.
>It's a great ego stroke to have people like you even for the wrong
>reasons.
No one can like me for the wrong reasons. I'm not rich, I'm not handsome,
and backstage passes rarely ranks more than a blowjob. Any woman willing to
share herself with me has to see something in me worth liking, so she probably
has the qualities I would like anyways.
>But it really doesn't mean anything.
Like I said, I feel like being shallow for awhile. I think I've earned the
right.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
>groping is when you don't get that sort of thing very often.
Or ever.
>the hunger for it kept me going and writing stories and dreaming
>and being happy in a really tragic sort of way.
That I'll agree with. Angst certainly gets the juices flowing, so to speak.
Definitely was the cause of some of my more interesting posts.
>>You'd still be alone.
>>I do mean this with the greatest sincerity.
>
>empty calories.
Like I said in another post: something vs nothing.
>and while that may last for a few hours, you'll always come down
>because you've just gotten basically everything BUT what you
>really really want.
A. I want those few hours. It isn't enough to hear people that have been
there and done that saying it isn't worth it. I want to have been there and
done that and decide for myself whether it is worth it.
B. (said politely cos I know you mean well) How do you know what I really
really want?
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
>>for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got.
>
> It might suprise you just
> how willing some of these guys
> might be to take you up on that.
Suckers all. When the procedure becomes available I'll be the first on the
table.
>On that note,
> take a moment to realize what you've "got."
>
I know what I've got. All of my women friends know I cherish their
friendship, their respect and their trust in me. I do get frustrated when I
see them make the same mistakes over and over again and fail to recognize a
nice guy right in front of them, but my bitterness doesn't blind me to the fact
that I have earned their trust and that's a big fucking deal.
I am a true American. I know what I've got, and I want more.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Empty
<snip too-familiar rant>
I think a song said it best:
"got spandex bike shorts where the sun don't shine
but the girls don't mind
Cuz that cake boy starts to move
to the old disco groove
And your girlfriend likes that,
You may not like that but thats a fact, black"
-Cake Boy, by Sir Mix-A-Lot
~Empty
------------------------------------------------------------
You are really pretty! |
Tried to lick your wounds, | -Bane, waxing poetic
tongue full of monitor dust. |
http://www.sinclairbrowning.com/emptyspaces
Empty
> I'd rather have something than nothing any day. I'm not choosing quantity
>over quality. I'm saying in the absense of quality, quantity will do quite
>nicely.
As someone who has spent eight months of the last year in an utterly
miserable relationship with a beautiful, but vapid, shell of a human
being, I can tell you to shut up right now Edvamp.
I'd like to have something on my cock, but if that something is
pruning shears, I'll pass.
Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing is
neutral in nature. And I have authority to talk about something,as I
have proven, and authority to talk about nothing, being after all..
Tetsab
> The women I hang out with seem incapable of viewing me in any ways
> physical or sexual. At least a "friends with benefits" relationship
> would alleviate that feeling.
Hrm.
I could have sworn that in an earlier rant of this sort you mentioned
that you can and do hug and kiss friends - and that someone else was
rather confused by this - or was this someone else?
That looks to be the same sitation Simon is in.
> "Oh, so you still get to use me as an emotional tampon, tell me your
> problems, bitch and moan about other guys, but we won't actually fuck"
I've had someone basically tell me that in the past; at least I know now
where they got it from.
[I was utterly enchanted that they assumed I'd do any of the above].
"So you really don't give a fuck what's coming out of one hole unless
you're getting to fuck the other one.."
[above not directed at anyone, just a flipside remark].
Tetsab.
>^..^<
--
Sig-na-a-ture is dead. http://members.home.net/tetsab/
The bytes have left the bell-tower.
Hardrock Llewynyth
of Our Lord Sun, 06 Feb 2000 14:20:59 GMT:
>Btw, the worst is when a friend tells you he has been to bed with a
>girl you really like, and you just sit there smiling and hoping he
>would shut up and go away and die or something.
Around here, that is generally an excuse for swift and blinding
violence :)
Seriously it isn't that painful for me to see that sort of thing, but
i generally know i have absolutely no chance of ever being anything
but an agony-aunt to her anyway. The guy she some crying to when yet
another bed-buddy dumps her or hurts her or whatever.
And and i get told what a wonderful person i am, and how she wishes
she could find someone as nice as me ("and preferably hell of a lot
less ugly" being obviously implied here). All i can do to keep from
screaming at times.
hardrock
--
Hardrock Llewynyth GAC DNRC hard...@speakeasy.org
http://www.speakeasy.org/~hardrock/
I will honour and express all facets of my being; regardless
of state and local laws.
Flight (maggot)
"K.M.S." wrote:
>
> In article <389E652E...@monkeyTRAPbrains.net>, "Flight (maggot)"
> <mag...@monkeyTRAPbrains.net> wrote:
> > > > > Surrounded by beautiful people who want to have a relationship with you.
> > > > > Fuck what a neverending cycle of misery and despair.
> > > My god! Most astoundingly bitter on _alt.gothic_ *gush* *bounce* I'd like
> > > to thank the academy.... ;)
> >
> > Yes, and while your at it you can take this "most typical and obvious"
> > whine of the month award for restating the obvious and generally
> > redundant in a refreshing and slightly more than dull way...
> >
> Oh no I couldn't your "It's so hard to know wether or not somone likes you
> just cause your pretty" posting was far more qualified for the award than
> any one liner I could toss off.
Now, now. No such thing could top the timeless lamentation of those who
are lonely solely because they lack the beauty that blesses the rest of
us with meaningful bounties of relevant adoration.
Come ladies, slobber on my sleeve, just try not to get the heart so
sticky...
Flight
Flight (maggot)
Edvamp wrote:
> >You missed the point. Being sought due to your looks does not equal
> >meaningful company.
>
> I didn't say I wanted every experience to be meaningful company. It would
> just be nice to have that variety, those few short relationships that didn't
> work out.
Well, unfortunately that happens to usually take the form of year after
year of short brief relationships that don't work out, often brought
about by the same behavior that drove you to seek out such random
relationship material.
You seem to be looking for some happy middle ground between being a
swinging sex stud yet being miserably lonely, and just being miserably
lonely. Unfortunately what you are looking for still involves being
miserably lonely, just having lots of sex (which is not a bad ambition,
but let's come to the point here).
The fact is that guys who have lots of chicks don't have meaningful
relationships (in my violent opinion) because they have lots of chicks!
What girl/guy worth having is going to single out someone who lets
anyone with a 6+ rating hang off of them as a meaningful partner for
future contentment and comfort seeking?
Right now it sounds like you're lashing out at the most obvious thing,
those green pastures that are really just acres of poison ivy (to
blatantly shove a metaphor down your throat). You are obsessing on what
you *don't* have, obsessing on the idea of finding a really meaningful
relationship rather than turning your focus on becoming a person worthy
of such a relationship.
No just to disclaim, I am not declaring you unworthy of such
companionship, merely pointing out that no one worth your love and
devotion is looking for someone devoting even marginal effort on the
quest to find them.
Rather they are busy looking for their bliss. They are pursuing their
dreams, feeling their way through life and finding what it is that makes
them truly happy as an individual, rather than harboring any neurotic
illusions that another person will provide this fulfillment for them.
The downside of this is that it means that your eventually finding
someone right for you is dictated entirely by chance. The upside is
that you will end up spending your life searching out what *actually*
makes you happy and probably avoid dozens of frustrating and often
painful diversions into the dark and dreary world of looking for Mrs.
Right. It means that if and when you find that person they will be far
more inclined to provide you with a meaningful partner since their
attraction will be based not on your "beautiful goth" looks but on the
person you are, confident, secure, true to thyself.
Relationships IMO are there for comfort, a pleasant consequence of being
true to yourself. Ask yourself how many couples you know who don't
argue all the time, who don't talk shit about each other, who haven't
broken up at least once. Ask yourself if that is your idea of a good
time. Ask yourself if dwelling on the fact that you are lonely is your
idea of a good time.
Whatever your idea of a good time is, it's entirely up to you to choose.
Flight
Flight (maggot)
Edvamp wrote:
>
> >You may see 5 or 6 beautiful women, but he only sees one. Nothing any of
> >those 5 or 6 do or say mean anything if you only care about the one
> >sitting across the bar.
>
> To a man that's starving, a person eating a hamburger but wanting filet
> mignon is obviously missing what he has in front of him.
A cute comparison, but to be more fair you are talking about a person
that wants water.
Just water, that's all he wants, and all he gets is tacos.
Flight
Edvamp
>that you can and do hug and kiss friends - and that someone else was
>rather confused by this - or was this someone else?
I do hug and kiss my friends. But I do not snog or sleep with them. That
is what I define to be a "friends with benefits" relationship. The friends I
hug and kiss we do in a snuggling way, not in any way sensual.
>"So you really don't give a fuck what's coming out of one hole unless
>you're getting to fuck the other one.."
>
>[above not directed at anyone, just a flipside remark].
And a valid one. How would I react if I had the chance to sleep with
someone I had absolutely nothing in common with didn't really enjoy their
company? Honestly I don't see that happening, as I stated in another post. If
it did, I can't say what I would do. It would depend on how I felt that exact
second.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Flight (maggot)
Edvamp wrote:
> I know what I've got. All of my women friends know I cherish their
> friendship, their respect and their trust in me. I do get frustrated when I
> see them make the same mistakes over and over again and fail to recognize a
> nice guy right in front of them, but my bitterness doesn't blind me to the fact
> that I have earned their trust and that's a big fucking deal.
Well that's your problem.
If all you want in sex, you have to A) treat women like shit, and B) ask
for it a lot!
B) is very important, since even the studliest sex god gets rejected
many many times in their illustrious careers, but speaking from
experience (I didn't "blossom" into a "swan" until I was 20 when my face
caught up with my nose) and from having known many guys who don't fit
any definition of beauty that Calvin Klein ads ever considered but that
still get laid all the time, asking is the relevant factor here. The
difference between guys that fuck and guys that don't is that some guys
ask for sex and others try to concoct meaningful relationships with
women and wind up gaining their trust. They go on to become the wise
and mature counselor, the big brother they never had.
You get frustrated when you see them make the same mistake over and over
again, but you seem to harbor some idea that by having gained their
trust they will somehow see the wisdom of changing their ways and decide
they want to be with a really nice guy after all.
Do you see the folly in this or am I going to have to find a way to make
the pistachio ice cream analogy that I have written twice in 30 line
paragraphs and deleted both times work?
I mean it's not a pretty sight, but I'm willing to make another go at
it.
Flight
Letterbomb
>You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
>
>Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
But they sure as shit alleviate that yawning sense of hopelessness,
despair and crap self-worth.
When your life is a sexual wasteland, angsting over the hypothetical
quality of seemingly impossible relationships is a luxury you simply
do not have, in my experience.
It's the feeling of hopelessness that kills you every morning. Social
and sexual claustrophobia. No way out.
I completely relate to Edvamp.
Letterbomb (who says confidence goes further than anything else.)
____________________________________________________________
Better the illusions that exalt us than ten thousand truths.
- Pushkin
ICQ: 16386278
Bem
<hard...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>>Btw, the worst is when a friend tells you he has been to bed with a
>>girl you really like, and you just sit there smiling and hoping he
>>would shut up and go away and die or something.
>
>Around here, that is generally an excuse for swift and blinding
>violence :)
:P
>Seriously it isn't that painful for me to see that sort of thing, but
>i generally know i have absolutely no chance of ever being anything
>but an agony-aunt to her anyway. The guy she some crying to when yet
>another bed-buddy dumps her or hurts her or whatever.
Yeah. I just stopped listening to these stories.
>And and i get told what a wonderful person i am, and how she wishes
>she could find someone as nice as me ("and preferably hell of a lot
>less ugly" being obviously implied here). All i can do to keep from
>screaming at times.
And the irritating thing is that they really mean it as a compliment
somehow, and they have no idea how much they hurt you. Telling it to
them just ends up with having one less friend, which is also not what
I want.
Bem
--
We are not in the least bit afraid of ruins.
We are going to inherit the earth.
The bourgouise may blast and ruin their world,
before they leave the stage of history,
but we carry a new world in our hearts.
Letterbomb
wrote:
>Quoth edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) on 06 Feb 2000 22:21:13 GMT:
>> I'd rather have something than nothing any day. I'm not choosing quantity
>>over quality. I'm saying in the absense of quality, quantity will do quite
>>nicely.
>
>As someone who has spent eight months of the last year in an utterly
>miserable relationship with a beautiful, but vapid, shell of a human
>being, I can tell you to shut up right now Edvamp.
I think you're being overly hasty in assuming that the intensity or
legitimacy of your experience outweighs the intensity or legitimacy of
Edvamp's.
>I'd like to have something on my cock, but if that something is
>pruning shears, I'll pass.
Sure. But you didn't go into the relationship expecting that to
happen, did you? I hope not.
>Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing is
>neutral in nature.
Oh ho, my young Casanova, no nothing is not. (<-- wow. )
Nothing is gnawing pain for a long time, with a whole lot of
interesting psychological repercussions that suck enormously.
> And I have authority to talk about something,as I
>have proven, and authority to talk about nothing, being after all..
Whatever.
Letterbomb
Luna
edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) wrote:
> Long term relationships end too. But at least you had something.
There is
> something to remember.
But in my experience, I've enjoyed my long-terms much more than my
flings. Most of the people I've dated I haven't gotten to know more
than on a superficial level and vice-versa -- and I hate that.
You get to a point where being alone is better than putting on that
fake face and playing that part, just so you can pretend that you're
not really on your own anyways.
> I'd rather have something than nothing any day.
I don't believe in wasting my time anymore.
If I wanted an empty, meaningless sexual relationship, I'd go buy a
dildo.
>^Luna^<
josie(at)thej-files(dot)com
http://www.thej-files.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Narnia
gusto in alt.gothic:
>Over the course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different
>women. All of them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him
>backrubs, scratched his neck, played with his hair.
Did they want him for his looks? Did they want him for status points?
Did they want him so they could brag to their friends? Or did they
actually want him for who he is?
Trying to discern who is being cozy for what reasons is not fun, and it
feels horrible to have to be so suspect of others.
>Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at the club, he has the audacity to
>be depressed.
The audacity of him being in love!
Perhaps he knew that his ex-girlfriend wanted him for who he was, and
perhaps he fell in love with her for that reason. Perhaps having those
fawning girls around him made him feel worse.
>Guys like that need to have my life for one month and they will then
>truly appreciate what they've got.
Be careful what you wish for. They might never want to give it back.
>When it gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much
>any girl there,
It won't matter to them if they're interested in quality not quantity, and
don't want just any girl there who happens to want them.
>they forget just how fucking awesome that is.
It's awesome for a very short amount of time. That sort of thing gets old
very fast.
>And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it, I'd rather be shallow than
>alone.
You'd still be alone. In fact, you'd be more alone, as you wouldn't ever
know who wanted to be your friend from who wanted to get you in bed for
whatever reason that had nothing to do with you beyond physical appearance
or status, and if it was the latter it would be short-lived.
Revel in your ability to be able to make friends who you are sure are
friends with you for who you are and that will last. And remember, the
grass is always greener on the other side, but when you get there you'll
find that the grass there is brown, dead, and in worse shape than on your
side.
--
=Narnia=
http://www.velvet.net/
Please do not send me spam, msword/non-text files, or chain letters
unless I ask for them or have given prior permission.
Joe Brenner
>Right now I wish I could go to a club without my girlfriend and not have
>to spend half my time deflecting come-ons. Since my girlfriend and I
>seldom can go to a club together, it has turned into me seldom going.
Funny, I'm in a similar situation. If I go out without my
"sheild" I'm afraid that they won't understand that I'm just
looking.
It also strikes me as being a trifle impolitic to go hanging
around on my own in what might be construed as a pick-up
scene.
But this kind of shit isn't exactly what EdVamp needs to
hear just now.
Let me see if I can be more reassuring. If you look around,
I'm sure you'll find examples of guys who look worse than
you do who are doing better with women. So the problem
isn't just that you're ugly, it's that you're stupid -- uh,
no that's not quite it.
What I'm trying to get at, is that this is mostly "just a
phase" you're going through, and once you finally get
through it, you'll look back on these days and realize that
at the very least they make you appreciate having gotten
through them. However you'll still want to go back with a
machine gun and mow down all the people like me who gave
you helpful advice.
I wrote some stuff about this once back in my equivalent
"phase", (and if my piece-of-shit ISP ever wakes up, you
might be able to read some of it):
http://www.grin.net/~mirthless/doomfiles/DRYSPELL.html
Luna
nar...@velvet.net wrote:
> And remember, the
> grass is always greener on the other side, but when you get there
you'll
> find that the grass there is brown, dead, and in worse shape than on
your
> side.
Well, sometimes it's just the same damn color as the side you've just
left and you're still wandering around, trying to figure out what you
want and where exactly you are. (I see this thing more often with my
anorexic/bulimic friends ... always, always finding themselves fat and
unattractive ... )
I just think that if you're trying to fill an emotional emptiness ...
you need something to adequately do the job. Like a Real Relationship.
Damn it, if all you want is sex, don't expect not to be alone in one
way or another. It's like expecting to get full from eating a bowl
full of dry Rice Crispies. A bunch of fluff, with no substance.
>^Luna^< not towards you Narnia, just got me thinking again :)
Joe Brenner
>On Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:17:59 GMT, Luna <luna_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
>>
>>Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
>But they sure as shit alleviate that yawning sense of hopelessness,
>despair and crap self-worth.
>When your life is a sexual wasteland, angsting over the hypothetical
>quality of seemingly impossible relationships is a luxury you simply
>do not have, in my experience.
>It's the feeling of hopelessness that kills you every morning. Social
>and sexual claustrophobia. No way out.
>I completely relate to Edvamp.
Yeah, I don't know about "completely", but I do think the
apostles of True Love here are laying it on a little thick.
Few women are going to be so impressed with your depth that
they're willing to just dive into your pool. Even the best
of them want to see a little flash and sparkle on the
surface, however shallow it really is.
Being "beautiful" is hardly necessary, but it's not
*completely* detrimental either.
And it's easy to say "you just need to be confident", but
radiating "confidence" when you've crashed and burned the
last half dozen times is quite a trick.
Joe Brenner
>Do you see the folly in this or am I going to have to find a way to make
>the pistachio ice cream analogy that I have written twice in 30 line
>paragraphs and deleted both times work?
>I mean it's not a pretty sight, but I'm willing to make another go at
>it.
Do it! Give us two or three versions, and we'll vote on
which one is best.
~twilight~
> Just a short rant. At the club last night there was this guy I know. Over the
> course of the night I saw him snog at least 5 or 6 different women. All of
> them gorgeous, some of them women I liked. They gave him backrubs, scratched
> his neck, played with his hair. Then when an ex-girlfriend shows up at the
> club, he has the audacity to be depressed. Guys like that need to have my life
> for one month and they will then truly appreciate what they've got. When it
> gets too easy for them, when they know they can have pretty much any girl
> there, they forget just how fucking awesome that is. I would love to be like
> that, even just for awhile. And if that makes me shallow, then fuck it, I'd
> rather be shallow than alone.
>
> Ever and Always
> Edvamp
I think that everybody can feel that there's something that they don't have,
can't have, and if they somehow did have it would make everything else so much
better. Looks is one of those things. Sex is another. Love is another.
Sometimes I also think that if I was a beautiful gothboi with goth girls falling at
my feet my life would be sooo much better. Or at least infinitely more fun. ;> I
know about how difficult it is to meet women when it comes to sex- whether it's a
one night stand or an ongoing thing, and it's many times more difficult when it
comes to an actual relationship. Maybe it's too easy for some people, but how many
more don't have it that easy? I'd say almost everyone. I've met you, and you
looked like a normal (gothy) person. I think that looking to meet women is what
scares women off the most. I think that if you act confident, are straightforward
about what you want without coming across as being crude, and don't focus so much
on the "beautiful," then you'll get more fuck. Luck, I mean luck. ;> Get a new
outfit, haircut, shoes, whatever you need to do something for an extra boost of
confidence. That can change the way that you carry yourself. Good luck.
~twilight~(azgoth, it can be hard to not be jealous)
Flight
Joe Breeder wrote:
> Being "beautiful" is hardly necessary, but it's not
> *completely* detrimental either.
Certainly not. It's sort of a kick start for some. Others have to push
the car to the top of a hill and get it rolling so they can pop the
clutch.
> And it's easy to say "you just need to be confident", but
> radiating "confidence" when you've crashed and burned the
> last half dozen times is quite a trick.
Yeh, well, even the most beautiful "bois" have probably crashed and
burned a Hell of a lot more than that. I know a lot of non-beautiful
"bois" who use their confidence as a springboard for their "lack" of
"boi-ish" good looks and do really damn well. The first trick is in
understanding that they will crash and burn nine times out of ten, like
in any venture in life.
Flight
Empty
13:26:58 GMT:
>On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:05:35 GMT, emptyCA...@theriver.com (Empty)
>wrote:
>>
>>As someone who has spent eight months of the last year in an utterly
>>miserable relationship with a beautiful, but vapid, shell of a human
>>being, I can tell you to shut up right now Edvamp.
>
>I think you're being overly hasty in assuming that the intensity or
>legitimacy of your experience outweighs the intensity or legitimacy of
>Edvamp's.
I am most certainly not saying my experience was in any way more
intense or legitimate.
What I *am* saying, is that I have been there. And it's not a road I'd
care to see any of my friends go down.
Edvamp, if you felt like i was being condescending there, I am sorry.
It was not intended.
>>I'd like to have something on my cock, but if that something is
>>pruning shears, I'll pass.
>
>Sure. But you didn't go into the relationship expecting that to
>happen, did you? I hope not.
Not expecting, no. But I should have been.
>>Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing is
>>neutral in nature.
>
>Oh ho, my young Casanova, no nothing is not. (<-- wow. )
>
>Nothing is gnawing pain for a long time, with a whole lot of
>interesting psychological repercussions that suck enormously.
So something bad is better than nothing good?
I suppose this whole thread is growing more and more subjective as it
wears on... My point, however, was that vapid, unfulfilling
relationships are worse than being alone. IME. YMMV.
~Empty, there, Letterbomb, did I disclaim that one enough for you?
maat
"Flight (maggot)" wrote:
>
<snip>
> Well that's your problem.
>
> If all you want in sex, you have to A) treat women like shit, and B) ask
> for it a lot!
>
> B) is very important, since even the studliest sex god gets rejected
> many many times in their illustrious careers, but speaking from
> experience (I didn't "blossom" into a "swan" until I was 20 when my face
> caught up with my nose) and from having known many guys who don't fit
> any definition of beauty that Calvin Klein ads ever considered but that
> still get laid all the time, asking is the relevant factor here. The
> difference between guys that fuck and guys that don't is that some guys
> ask for sex and others try to concoct meaningful relationships with
> women and wind up gaining their trust. They go on to become the wise
> and mature counselor, the big brother they never had.
>
> You get frustrated when you see them make the same mistake over and over
> again, but you seem to harbor some idea that by having gained their
> trust they will somehow see the wisdom of changing their ways and decide
> they want to be with a really nice guy after all.
I must be weird. I actually avoid guys that are too good looking
because I'm worried that they might be stuck-up and empty-headed because
of their looks. (I know, I know. Reverse lookism. Guilty as charged.)
When it comes to sex, I actually prefer having sex with my friends. I
like them, they like me, no one is going to fall in love /stalk/go nuts
on the other person. I also prefer having sex with my friends because I
know that they will respect me in the morning. Having said that, I do
have to find them attractive sexually, and be so inclined, and be in the
mood for that sort of thing.
As far as women confiding in you...I confide in my male friends. But I
confide in my female friends even more. I really resent it when guys
say things like, "Oh, we get to be your emotional tampon and don't get
to fuck you." That's misogynist and cruel. Friends are supposed to
support each other, and help each other through times of crisis. If I
heard a man saying the above statement, I would lose all respect for
him. If he was a friend of mine, I obviously would have to seriously
question our friendship, if fucking is all he thinks I'm good for.
--maat
Jennie Kermode
<hard...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>And and i get told what a wonderful person i am, and how she wishes
>she could find someone as nice as me ("and preferably hell of a lot
>less ugly" being obviously implied here). All i can do to keep from
>screaming at times.
IME, a lot of women who say that do so because they lack self
esteem and honestly don't think they're good enough for you. That, or,
because the friendship has become established as non-sexual, they would
find it awkward, or they assume that _you_ would find it awkward, if they
started flirting, and they're sufficiently fond of you to be afraid of
losing you like that.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk/jennie jen...@innocent.com
fuzzy pink satan (also known as skerry)
onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>>i can understand how thrilling the concept of a kiss or a thorough
>>groping is when you don't get that sort of thing very often.
>
> Or ever.
ow.
>>>You'd still be alone.
>>>I do mean this with the greatest sincerity.
>>
>>empty calories.
>
> Like I said in another post: something vs nothing.
i guess. it kinda seems like guzzling saltwater when
you're thirsty, though.
>>and while that may last for a few hours, you'll always come down
>>because you've just gotten basically everything BUT what you
>>really really want.
>
> A. I want those few hours. It isn't enough to hear people that have been
>there and done that saying it isn't worth it. I want to have been there and
>done that and decide for myself whether it is worth it.
granted.
i'm not saying you shouldn't want it. there's nothing inherently
wrong with having it, if it isn't being used as a substitute for
something else.
> B. (said politely cos I know you mean well) How do you know what I really
>really want?
hmm.
you're right, i don't know what you really really want.
(tellmewhatchawantwhatchareallyreallywant)
i presume a lot, assume a lot, and jump to a lot of halfbaked
conclusions. it's one of my biggest faults and it gets me in
a lot o' trouble.
you've just always seemed to be a real nice guy, and i'd
hate for you to wind up feeling like nothing more than a
cock on legs.
sorry. :|
carrie
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://ossuary.net/~skerrella/ - satan's in the la-BOR-a-tory!
delete the thpam to reply. :P
Panurge
> So something bad is better than nothing good?
Isn't that conventional wisdom among the Hip And Trendy by now? "Hurt
myself today," blah blah blah.
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Francis Bacon
Jetrock
>Also, a few people, mainly Narnia and Jennie I think, have said how much it
>sucks for people to be nice to them merely for the purpose of getting them into
>bed. Yes, that does sound like it would suck. It's cheap and it's demeaning
>and they deserve better.
But that's how it is done. If you don't like telling lies, get used to a
life without cheap, meaningless nookie. And I don't care what anyone says,
cheap meaningless nookie can be a lot of fun. But it has its limits.
The pretty goth boy in your example doubtless knew those limits, which is
why he got bummed when his ex-girlfriend showed up after being glommed by
six other women.
If you want to Score with Lots Of Hot Chicks, learn to lie like a
motherfucker. If you want to keep your honor and conscience intact, learn
to enjoy jerking off. There isn't a hell of a lot of middle ground.
>Both extremes suck I think. Yeah, I would probably feel kinda cheap if I was
>say, rich, or good looking and women slept with me for that reason alone. But
>I would feel better than I do right now.
Would it? Your earlier posts and statements implied that you weren't
looking for meaningless nookie and that those who did get it probably
weren't that happy. Is this a change of heart? Sour grapes? Or are your
earlier statements just lies to get someone into bed that you haven't been
able to admit to yourself are lies?
>What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
>the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
>aren't supposed to have a mind.
On being "the nice guy": I played this particular role for much of my
life: the role of Lady's Champion. The Lady's Champion is her friend and
confidant, her defender and helper in times of trouble, her source of
strength--but very, very, very seldom is he her lover. He may certainly
love her, passionately and intensely, but the chivalric code of the Lady's
Champion prohibits their expression. It's a very powerful medieval image
and one whose value shouldn't be discounted, but, again, it can involve a
lot of beating off.
The Champion just plain doesn't ask. Even if the Lady in question might be
interested. To do so would defile Her purity in the mind of the Champion
and things would Change.
This brings to mind another flaw in the reasoning of the Lady's Champion:
that of pedestalizing a woman, of creating a Fantasy Lady, object of
daydream, masturbation fantasy and recipient of many never-sent love
letters, which can eclipse and replace the actual woman. A woman is
attainable. An Untouchable Goddess is not.
I think I got sick of Untouchable Goddesses at some point, but still
occasionally fell into that trap. Even after I finally gained some level
of skill in lying my way into a woman's arms, I still fell into the Lady's
Champion role occasionally, which ended up wasting a lot of my time and
just resulted in a lot of missed opportunities with women who were,
surprise of surprises, actually interested in having sex with me.
My current situation (marriage) was brought about because I made a
concerted attempt to NOT pedestalize, idolize or fantasize. This, combined
with a modicum of very honest Lies Intended To Get Nookie were utilized to
good effect. Though I do get the occasional urge to build gigantic marble
temples to her with my bare hands.
>
>I guess one benefit is we got another sex/relationship thread going. :)
And an interesting one, too. And I will try, very very hard, to not
mention guns.
Oh damn!
--
--Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!
LordKumar
jetrock@REMOVE_ME.emrl.com (Jetrock) wrote:
> snip
> On being "the nice guy": I played this particular role
> for much of my
> life: the role of Lady's Champion. The Lady's Champion
> is her friend and
> confidant, her defender and helper in times of
> trouble, her source of
> strength--but very, very, very seldom is he her lover.
> He may certainly
> love her, passionately and intensely, but the
> chivalric code of the Lady's
> Champion prohibits their expression. It's a very
> powerful medieval image
> and one whose value shouldn't be discounted, but,
> again, it can involve a
> lot of beating off.
> The Champion just plain doesn't ask. Even if the Lady
> in question might be
> interested. To do so would defile Her purity in the
> mind of the Champion
> and things would Change.
God damnit! Is this a side effect of playing D&D when one is
little? Has anyone done studies on this topic? Damn that
devil game D&D, it converts our children into little
knights! Inserting foul ideals of chivalry and honor into
their pure little hearts!
Or maybe it's just that us geeks turn into 'nice guys' when
we get older, and the collelation between geeks and rpgs is
merely coincidental.
> And an interesting one, too. And I will try, very very
> hard, to not
> mention guns.
> Oh damn!
Something about sex and gun threads, eh Jetrock?
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Edvamp
>phase" you're going through,
It started in High School. I'm 27 now. How long do these bloody phases
last? :)
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
>flings.
Oh I'm sure. And I'm not saying at all that I would choose a fling over a
serious relationship. How do you know whether it will be one or the other?
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
and just sleeping with people cos they're there is all that. Of course I would
prefer meeting someone that I really dug and could talk to that also felt the
same about me, AND have the physical aspect as well.
I'm also not saying I feel used by my female friends (despite the emotional
tampon quote). They are my friends and they know I would take a bullet for
them.
Also, a few people, mainly Narnia and Jennie I think, have said how much it
sucks for people to be nice to them merely for the purpose of getting them into
bed. Yes, that does sound like it would suck. It's cheap and it's demeaning
and they deserve better.
Both extremes suck I think. Yeah, I would probably feel kinda cheap if I was
say, rich, or good looking and women slept with me for that reason alone. But
I would feel better than I do right now.
What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
aren't supposed to have a mind.
I guess one benefit is we got another sex/relationship thread going. :)
Ever and Always
Edvamp
David Gerard
:On Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:17:59 GMT, Luna <luna_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
:>You'd rather be shallow than be alone, eh?
:>Shallow relationships won't really help with that.
:But they sure as shit alleviate that yawning sense of hopelessness,
:despair and crap self-worth.
:When your life is a sexual wasteland, angsting over the hypothetical
:quality of seemingly impossible relationships is a luxury you simply
:do not have, in my experience.
:It's the feeling of hopelessness that kills you every morning. Social
:and sexual claustrophobia. No way out.
:I completely relate to Edvamp.
*speechless*
...
*speechless*
Cameron, you are one of the most *beautiful* men I can think of [1]. You're
gorgeous, you're smart, you're cultured, you're a nice guy.
JESUS, YOU PEOPLE. WHAT IS *WRONG* WITH YOU?!
How do I put this ... Cameron ... Ed ... it's not the *world* that's wrong.
And Ed, you keep posting this thread. And you get the same answers each
time, and you don't apply them. I'm gonna give you a special section on the
tarting page if you don't watch it. I'm warning you.
:Letterbomb (who says confidence goes further than anything else.)
Fuck. You need the goddamn Wizard of Oz to grant you Confidence, so you'll
actually believe it or something?
Fuck. I'd be bashing your heads against walls if not for my ego the size of
a planet and boundless sexual capabilities. Really.
(I live in the burbs. The surroundings are nice, but the people are *so*
badly dressed. At least the goths are beautiful.)
[1] maaaate y know maaaate I think you should know maaaaate you're
gooorgeous maaate, not that I'm a poof or nothin ... Oh wait, I am. Sorry.
--
http://xenu.netizen.com.au/ http://www.caube.org.au/
"HTML's a cheap whore. Treating her with respect is possible, and even pref-
erable, because once upon a time she was a beautiful and virginal format, but
you shouldn't expect too much of her at this point." (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Edvamp
>hate for you to wind up feeling like nothing more than a
>cock on legs.
I think it is safe to say you can lay your fears to rest.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
The Evil Chemist
> I'm also not saying I feel used by my female friends (despite the emotional
> tampon quote). They are my friends and they know I would take a bullet for
> them.
Yeah, but I can't help but think the "substitute boyfriend" is what you
feel at times. <geez how I've felt like this>
That is, when they don't have a guy, they hang out with you all the time,
call you, tell you how great you are, do all the things they'd do with a
"real boyfriend" except the physical part.
And all the time you think "what if?" but you're scared of finding out if
the "what ifs" are just an illusion. You get so scared of thinking this
person will run away from you if you test these specualtions.
So nothing ever comes of it and she finds someone else and you're stuck
listening to her talk all about "him". And you do listen, b/c well, you
are her friend and that cannot change, but it stings, it stings so fucking
much. It hurts even more when you have to shake hands with this guy
knowing that he is really a prick, but you don't want to say anything, b/c
you can't decide if you'd be giving her advice as a friend, or if yer
trying to separate them so you could have a chance.
And you don't want to do this, b/c well you are her friend and you are a
nice guy. So she finds out on her own accord and your always there when
she falls. Your the only one there, b/c everyone else left her drowning
in her own tears.
But she never realises this.
And this goes on and on. And you always place her above you, as
you should b/c you are a friend, but it sucks to no end.
I think I just put my heart on my sleeve.
jv, maybe should step away from the computer for a sec.
The Evil Chemist
> If all you want in sex, you have to A) treat women like shit, and B) ask
> for it a lot!
> still get laid all the time, asking is the relevant factor here. The
> difference between guys that fuck and guys that don't is that some guys
> ask for sex and others try to concoct meaningful relationships with
> women and wind up gaining their trust. They go on to become the wise
> and mature counselor, the big brother they never had.
I think you just split the arrow in half on that bulls eye.
Good shot Robin Hood.
Btw, Hank Aaron also has the most strikeouts in all of baseball:
"You can't strike out if you don't swing the bat, but you can't hit
homeruns either." - Brian Murphy[1] 13 year old Sage.
jv
[1] He had quite an illustrious career, until his demise in 1997 when he
retire to raise a family.
Siobhan
>What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
>the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
>aren't supposed to have a mind.
You did notice your name popping up in the Who I Would Like to Have
Sex with thread more than once, didn't you?
Dammit. I'm bringing a club to C6 with me and I am going to
threaten to *beat* you with it unless you get your ass out there and
hit on somebody.
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today.~Spider Jerusalem
TSM
>> On that note,
>> take a moment to realize what you've "got."
>
> I know what I've got. All of my women friends know I cherish their
>friendship, their respect and their trust in me. I do get frustrated when I
>see them make the same mistakes over and over again and fail to recognize a
>nice guy right in front of them, but my bitterness doesn't blind me to the fact
>that I have earned their trust and that's a big fucking deal.
I think I might have said something along
these lines the last time this subject came up,
but now I'm going to be a little more direct.
You seriously need to ditch this
Draconian notion you have that
wanting -and seeking- sex from someone
makes you less of a person.
What more proof do you need that girls
like sex as much as guys do than the
fact that so many of them are having it?
Sure, people can get hurt as a result of it,
but I can also get hurt if I stub my toe
on the coffeetable.
Shit Happens.
The bad people are the ones that
don't make an attempt to -keep- it from happening.
> I am a true American. I know what I've got, and I want more.
Then fucking take it, already.
The world is not made of glass.
>Ever and Always
>Edvamp
Of all people, Ed, I swear. . .
You could talk water out of a stone.
--TSM
H Duffy
Jennie Kermode <jen...@skinner.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn89umqs...@skinner.demon.co.uk...
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 02:54:00 -0800, Hardrock Llewynyth
> <hard...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
> >And and i get told what a wonderful person i am, and how she wishes
> >she could find someone as nice as me ("and preferably hell of a lot
> >less ugly" being obviously implied here). All i can do to keep from
> >screaming at times.
>
> IME, a lot of women who say that do so because they lack self
> esteem and honestly don't think they're good enough for you. That, or,
> because the friendship has become established as non-sexual, they would
> find it awkward, or they assume that _you_ would find it awkward, if they
> started flirting, and they're sufficiently fond of you to be afraid of
> losing you like that.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, while I'm sure that what Jennie
says is often true, it can simply be a case of lack of chemistry; I've been
in the situation more than once where a male friend has wanted more than
friendship, (Sometimes he's told me so, sometimes he hasn't...) and, while I
loved the person in question as a friend, I simply didn't fancy the guy. I
could, I suppose, have faked it, but that wouldn't have gotten either of us
where we wanted to go.
Which doesn't help Edvamp any, I'm afraid; All I can say is that in every
case I've known, sooner or later someone has pounced on the man in question
and left him in no doubt that they wanted _more_ than friendship; Sometimes
it takes some time, and sometimes you have to learn to be happy with
yourself before someone can see you making _them_ happy too.
H
50 Ft Queenie
>
> On 08 Feb 2000 00:42:02 GMT, edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) wrote:
>
> >What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
> >the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
> >aren't supposed to have a mind.
>
> You did notice your name popping up in the Who I Would Like to Have
> Sex with thread more than once, didn't you?
>
> Dammit. I'm bringing a club to C6 with me and I am going to
> threaten to *beat* you with it unless you get your ass out there and
> hit on somebody.
What siobhan said, plus a little something more.
Let me tell you a story.
I'm dating a Nice Guy (tm).We've been together for
two years. :) Before we got together, we were very
close friends for a long time. For most of that
time, I was dating someone else, and I'd bitch to
him about my SO, and he'd complain about the women
he wanted to date who wanted nothing to do with
him. My SO and I broke up, and the Nice Guy and I
started spending a lot more time together. Sound
familiar?
Here's where the story diverges a bit. The Nice
Guy told me how he felt about me. I didn't feel
the same, but because we were such good friends,
we were able to talk about it and still hang out
together. As time passed (approx 2-3 months) I
slowly started to change my mind. I made a
concious decision to date a Nice Guy for a change,
instead of pretty, charming bois who always ended
up having more ego than personality. Another
factor was that since the Nice Guy had told me
that he wanted a relationship with me, I knew
where I stood with him, yet he didn't push the
issue when I initially said no. So, we slowly
morphed from friends into lovers, and yes, it was
an awkward transition at times, but well worth it.
The point is that I would never have thought to
give the Nice Guy a chance had he not told me how
he felt. So tell your female friends how you feel,
and if they don't respond immediately, give it
time, and keep letting them know that you find
them interesting, intelligent and attractive. You
have nothing to lose.
Steph
--
The goths are beautiful, a vast depth of
subcultural, aesthetic and poetic ideas,
and we would identify with that as we
did back in 1979. But not the post modern
distortion...the costume without the brain.
- Peter Murphy
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On 08 Feb 2000 00:42:02 GMT, edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) wrote:
>
> >What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
> >the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
> >aren't supposed to have a mind.
>
> You did notice your name popping up in the Who I Would Like to Have
> Sex with thread more than once, didn't you?
>
> Dammit. I'm bringing a club to C6 with me and I am going to
> threaten to *beat* you with it unless you get your ass out there and
> hit on somebody.
But will even a club penetrate the patented Obliviousness Shield?
>
> Siobhan
>
> ....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
> {http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
> If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today.~Spider Jerusalem
--
"We look through a glass but darkly:
What we see is more colored by our beliefs,
than what we believe is colored by what we see."
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/
K.M.S.
> Siobhan wrote:
> >
> > On 08 Feb 2000 00:42:02 GMT, edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) wrote:
> >
> > >What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just
because I am
> > >the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive
people who
> > >aren't supposed to have a mind.
> >
> > You did notice your name popping up in the Who I Would Like to Have
> > Sex with thread more than once, didn't you?
> >
> > Dammit. I'm bringing a club to C6 with me and I am going to
> > threaten to *beat* you with it unless you get your ass out there and
> > hit on somebody.
>
> But will even a club penetrate the patented Obliviousness Shield?
>
It will penetrate Level one, but the inner "I'm just dooing this beacuse
somone is threatening to crack my skull open" force field will still be
functioning.
Koko "what's so amazing about really deep thoughts" Martin Sama
Jennie Kermode
<jver...@suba01.suba.com> wrote:
>Yeah, but I can't help but think the "substitute boyfriend" is what you
>feel at times. <geez how I've felt like this>
Is there a clear difference between 'substitute boyfriend' and
'friend'?
I'm curious.
Do women who seem to you to behave in this manner treat their
female friends differently? Do you feel that they treat you with more or
with less respect? Do you yourself allow them to get closer to you than
you would allow another friend? Do they try to push themselves into that
position?
>That is, when they don't have a guy, they hang out with you all the time,
>call you, tell you how great you are, do all the things they'd do with a
>"real boyfriend" except the physical part.
Doesn't one do a lot of those things with friends anyway? Isn't
a lot of it just part of having fun?
This may not be the case with everyone, so I'm just asking. Are
there other aspects to their behaviour which you would not normally expect
outside of a sexual or romantic relationship? Could it just be that they
are particularly intimate and affectionate individuals, or is there
something different going on?
>So nothing ever comes of it and she finds someone else and you're stuck
>listening to her talk all about "him". And you do listen, b/c well, you
Does she stop behaving the same way around you after she finds
him?
That, to me, would be the crunch. That's where she would be
failing as a friend of any type.
I don't have much time for the sort of people who hang around
while sinhgle and then, upon finding a lover, disappear into coupledom,
rejecting past friends and acquaintances and never making the effort to
spend time with them. Those aren't friends, they're just hangers-on. They
don't deserve your energy or your affection. And that's the case
regardless of whether or not you also have sexual or romantic feelings for
them.
>much. It hurts even more when you have to shake hands with this guy
>knowing that he is really a prick, but you don't want to say anything, b/c
>you can't decide if you'd be giving her advice as a friend, or if yer
>trying to separate them so you could have a chance.
This can happen with friendship too, even when no such other
feelings exist. There's always a fine line between respecting people's
independence and protecting them as a friend should.
The Industrial Love KittenLady
> Btw, Hank Aaron also has the most strikeouts in all of baseball:
I know you used this in conjunction with the footnote to mean something
else, but dammit, that's Reggie Jackson ;)
-Leonora
('sides in that catagory, it's probably Wade Boggs, he had to strike out
somewhere you know...)
--
http://www.kittenlady.com | All I needed was the love you gave
we...@kittenlady.com | All I needed for another day
ICQ: 1962098 | And all I never knew ... Only you
Edward Scissorhands
writes
>I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, while I'm sure that what Jennie
>says is often true, it can simply be a case of lack of chemistry; I've been
>in the situation more than once where a male friend has wanted more than
>friendship, (Sometimes he's told me so, sometimes he hasn't...) and, while I
>loved the person in question as a friend, I simply didn't fancy the guy. I
>could, I suppose, have faked it, but that wouldn't have gotten either of us
>where we wanted to go.
It works both ways, I had a friend who I liked, and who was always
attached. We never became very close friends, so that option wasn't
closed, and after she'd split up with someone, we decided to go 'on a
date' as such. It wasn't anywhere, you know? Like, there was absolutely
no spark, we went to a movie, didn't say very much, and went home.
*laughs* We're still friends.
Expanding on this, I've realised that all the times I had been out when
I was in such a bad state of mind, it was always "why doesn't anyone
fancy/like/want to talk to me?". Now, I look at most of the people and
wonder why I ever cared - this of course, never applied when the Mission
was in the Rocking Horse, and my favourite place in the world ;)
But, some people say I'm attractive, some don't. I'd never be an
ubercute gothboi, but I hope I'm not as ugly as I sometimes feel ;) I
think the main problem is that I am incredibly aloof, or come across
that way, because I'm shy. I won't talk unless I have something to say,
smalltalk isn't a skill I possess.
EdwardS, who managed to spend Saturday looking frighteningly stylish,
but felt very out of place in a small town pub full of small town
people.
--
Edward Scissorhands |\ _,,,---,,_
Bunburyist, Goth, Citroenist. AGF-Borg - 0 of Goth /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
E-Mail: EdwardS<at>lovecraft.demon.co.uk |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'::.
Homepage: http://www.lovecraft.demon.co.uk/ '----''(_/--' `-'\_)Morticia
Edvamp
>looking for meaningless nookie and that those who did get it probably
>weren't that happy.
No, those were everyone's replies to me.
>Is this a change of heart? Sour grapes? Or are your
>earlier statements just lies to get someone into bed that you haven't been
>able to admit to yourself are lies?
I beg your pardon?
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
>Sex with thread more than once, didn't you?
Yeah, by guys and women that live across the country from me. :)
>Dammit. I'm bringing a club to C6 with me and I am going to
>threaten to *beat* you with it unless you get your ass out there and
>hit on somebody.
Dammit, threaten to make the girls hit on me. :)
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Edvamp
> Draconian notion you have that
> wanting -and seeking- sex from someone
> makes you less of a person.
This isn't something I pulled out of thin air. Every time I have let on to
a friend that I found her attractive the reaction was almost always one of
betrayel.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Kest
Hardrock Llewynyth <hard...@speakeasy.org> wrote>
> And and i get told what a wonderful person i am, and how she wishes
> she could find someone as nice as me ("and preferably hell of a lot
> less ugly" being obviously implied here). All i can do to keep from
> screaming at times.
>
Edvamp wrote:
> Every time I have let on to
>a friend that I found her attractive the reaction was almost always one of
>betrayel.
>I like playing the role of the Big Strong Guy. I like playing the role of
>the Listener and Counselor. I like playing the role of the Intellectual or
>Academic. But just because I fit into the role of those archetypes doesn't
>mean I can't also be the Lover.
Okay, this is just a theory, but what I seem to be seeing is some people
whose idea of 'being a friend' is to hide things and put on act of being
some mythical ideal archetypal Friend. When your friend wishes she could
find a guy as nice as you do you ask if she's got any friends who might want
to be set up with you? Have you bluntly asked what it is about you she
doesn't find attractive and what she thinks you might be able to do about
it? Do you hide the fact that you're interested so long that when you let it
out it seems like you've been conducting the friendship under false
pretenses? Or do you only let these things out on newsgroups?
k
Marshdrifter
Jennie Kermode wrote in message ...
> Is there a clear difference between 'substitute boyfriend' and
>'friend'?
> I'm curious.
Now this borders on something that goes
through my mind now and again.
What's the difference between being a boyfriend
and being a close friend?
The glaring one for me would be the
physical issues, but that's not always
the case.
I'm sure there's some sort of emotional
aspect here, but I dearly love some of
my female friends. Perhaps it's a combination
of sexual attraction and endeared affection.
I don't know. I lack the experience to really
tell. I imagine it's a thin line, but what
relationships I've had tended to stay away
from that line, sadly.
Stephen
"Go not to the elves for counsel,
for they will say both yes and no."
--Frodo Baggins
Kitte Ka'at
<endymion...@my-deja.com> :
> [1] Most hetero women will say they're willing to be aggressive (if only
it
> didn't scare men off! - which translates to "If only I didn't face the
> same odds of rejection as every man who has ever approached a woman"),
> but for 95% this means (a) when they already know the advances are
> welcome and there is absolutely no chance of rejection, and/or (b) if
> the man is Jude Law.
I have to disagree with your presumption of women's motives for not pouncing
on men as often as we would like to. We live in a culture that labels
sexually assertive women as sluts, tramps, whores, all manner of derisive
labels. I think this is far more a deterrent than fear of rejection, because
frankly, most guys are plenty happy to frolic when given half a chance.
Kitte Ka'at
Eugene, OR, USA
ICQ# 6719344
http://www.kaatspaw.com
God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
K.M.S.
edv...@aol.comKILLKILL (Edvamp) wrote:
> >You seriously need to ditch this
> > Draconian notion you have that
> > wanting -and seeking- sex from someone
> > makes you less of a person.
>
> This isn't something I pulled out of thin air. Every time I have let on to
> a friend that I found her attractive the reaction was almost always one of
> betrayel.
>
Oh hell yeah, once when I revealed a crush i had had on a freind the exact
quote was "Oh, well at least you got over it".
Koko "of those beautiful boys" Martin Sama
Jetrock
>In article <slrn89vb3h....@boulez.emrl.com>,
>
>God damnit! Is this a side effect of playing D&D when one is
>little? Has anyone done studies on this topic? Damn that
>devil game D&D, it converts our children into little
>knights! Inserting foul ideals of chivalry and honor into
>their pure little hearts!
>
>Or maybe it's just that us geeks turn into 'nice guys' when
>we get older, and the collelation between geeks and rpgs is
>merely coincidental.
>
Dominance Thing which, like it or not, gets the Macho Dominant type more
nookie than any ten average dice-rollers. Confidence counts, even when
it's just macho bluster.
>> And an interesting one, too. And I will try, very very
>> hard, to not
>> mention guns.
>> Oh damn!
>
>Something about sex and gun threads, eh Jetrock?
>
It's not a *substitute.* They're a MATCHED SET! ;>
endymion...@my-deja.com
> All I can say is that in every
> case I've known, sooner or later someone has pounced
> on the man in question and left him in no doubt that
> they wanted _more_ than friendship;
Hmph. Sorry, but I don't believe that Disney-esque, Pretty-in-Pink-
ending, "there's someone for everyone" business. Life is a game of
musical chairs and some people get stuck standing when the music stops.
IMHO trying to pretend otherwise is trying to sugarcoat an unpalatable
and vastly unfair reality in an attempt to feel less guilty about being
one of the lucky ones in the chairs.
And most heterosexual guys never get pounced on by anyone unless
they're drop dead gorgeous. I can count the number of times this has
ever happened to me on the fingers of one hand with several fingers
left over - the times I've made the advance myself outnumber them at
least ten to one, and that's only counting successful advances.[1] Most
hetero women will say they're willing to be aggressive (if only it
didn't scare men off! - which translates to "If only I didn't face the
same odds of rejection as every man who has ever approached a woman"),
but for 95% this means (a) when they already know the advances are
welcome and there is absolutely no chance of rejection, and/or (b) if
the man is Jude Law. And the chances of an average-looking guy being
the target of that bold 5% are Slim and None (and Slim just blew town).
The most the average bloke can expect in the way of encouragement is an
assortment of subtle clues that any moves he might make would not be
unwelcome.
Sorry, Ed, but having to make the first move is the price you pay for
being a heterosexual male. Small price, really; after all, you get to
wear comfortable boots and clothes to the club.
> and sometimes you have to learn to be happy with
> yourself before someone can see you making _them_ happy too.
True. Self-fulfilling prophecies are often at work here, as, I suspect,
is the case with Edvamp.
[1] This includes only advances made out of genuine interest, and not
those made purely out of an ulterior motive - for example, to make an
ex-boyfriend jealous.
Endymion
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
endymion...@my-deja.com
> As someone who has spent eight months of the last year in an utterly
> miserable relationship with a beautiful, but vapid, shell of a human
> being, I can tell you to shut up right now Edvamp.
>
> I'd like to have something on my cock, but if that something is
> pruning shears, I'll pass.
> Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing is
> neutral in nature.
This is something like the death vs. slavery question, or a question of
whether having loads of money makes one happier; the difference is a
matter of options. It's almost always better to have more options. If
you have the prospect of mindless, meaningless flings, you at least
have the option to take them or leave them. If you don't have that
prospect, you have only one option, and nothing you don't have the
other way. Mindless sex, like money, can't make you happy, but it's
better to be frequently laid and unhappy than a sexual pariah and
unhappy.
endymion...@my-deja.com
endymion...@my-deja.com
> Everything anyone can ever
> be comes with it's own set of problems.
Sure.
But some problems are more equal than others. And something highly
beneficial can have disadvantages without them outweighing the
advantages.
And I have absolutely zero sympathy for filthy rich celebrities talking
about the problems that are associated with their wealth and fame.
People whining about the problems of being beautiful and popular are
little different.
> It might suprise you just
> how willing some of these guys
> might be to take you up on that.
They might say that, but they don't mean it - or else why do they go to
the trouble to keep up their appearance? It's the easiest thing in the
world to let one's appearance go to seed.
> I know this guy who is, ironically,
> my girlfriend's roommate who could
> very easily and accurately be described
> as a dope-ass chunk of beefcake.
>
> You know what he said to me the other night?
> "Damn, sometimes I just wish the girls would
> leave me alone. All I want to do is go out and
> dance or something and I can't get a moment's peace. . ."
> or words to that effect.
He's full of it. I have never known, or even known of, a single soul
who got that constant attention who didn't go to a great deal of
trouble in order to get it. It is almost always the result of years of
intensive effort perfecting an appearance and style carefully designed
to provoke just that sort of attraction. This is just as true for the
pretty boi at the local club as it is for Madonna.
This is exactly like someone with a 7-figure income whining about the
problems money brings. Shallow popularity is the same in money in this
respect: they take a lot of effort to obtain and are the easiest things
in the world to get rid of if one really doesn't want them.
Usually, of course, what the speaker really means is that s/he is
addicted to the benefits s/he gets from being rich and/or beautiful and
can't bear to forego them, but s/he would love to be able to enjoy
those benefits without the accompanying disadvantages.
> -Everyone- gets used, Ed.
> Everyone.
But someone who gets used by an employer for $1M a year is a lot better
off than someone getting used the same way for $10k. If you've got to
work and you're going to get reamed either way, you might as well at
least get something out of it.
And someone getting used by gorgeous creatures for sexual gratification
is better off than someone being used by the same people as an
unrewarded emotional prop or, worse, the butt of derisive jokes.
> Everyone also wants what
> they can't seem to get.
> In your case, it's sex.
> In his case, and I shit thee not,
> it's the opprotunity to just -talk-
> to a woman without her trying to
> get sex out of him.
Now this is a more subtle and, IMHO, more valid point. I can understand
that - and I can well understand the point that there is a lot more to
life than mere shallow sexual gratification. Everyone (at least
everyone with half a brain) wants the chance for something more
meaningful. Everyone wants to form bonds with others that go deeper
than surface appearances.
But how much is beautiful boi really missing out on that?
Is anyone who is worth having as a friend going to refuse to be friends
with someone because that person is too beautiful to be anything but a
sex toy, any more than because that person is not attractive enough to
be a sex toy?
Is anyone who is sensitive enough to look beneath the surface of a less
attractive guy suddenly going to become so shallow as to see only the
surface of beautiful boi?
Are the women who won't look at him as anything but a gorgeous life
support system for a cock worth trying to befriend? Are they going to
give any more of themselves to the nice, but unattractive guy? Or are
they going to fit more into the "use him for an emotional tampon"
category?
I don't think your friend is missing anything at all. Anyone who is
going to be a real friend is going to be a real friend to him just as
much as to Ed. But the women who want a sexual relationship - whether
it's something deep and meaningful or just mindless fun - are going to
flock to beautiful boi. So, getting back to my last post on this topic,
he has options Ed doesn't have, while Ed doesn't have options beautiful
boi is missing except the option to be used emotionally by the shallow
ones without even the compensation of sexual satisfaction.
(This should go without saying, but of course all of this applies
equally with the gender roles reversed. Beautiful women have a
tremendous advantage in this area over unattractive women which is only
partly compensated for by the attendant distraction from more
substantial characteristics, and a man who is going to be a true friend
to a plain woman is just as likely to be a true friend to a gorgeous
one.)
Everyone keeps saying there is more to life than popularity and shallow
sex. Of course there is. But realizing there is MORE than that doesn't
make anyone any more content with having LESS.
endymion...@my-deja.com
> Yeah, but I can't help but think the "substitute boyfriend" is what
you
> feel at times. <geez how I've felt like this>
>
> That is, when they don't have a guy, they hang out with you all the
time,
> call you, tell you how great you are, do all the things they'd do
with a
> "real boyfriend" except the physical part.
Oh, it gets much worse. The real joy is when she *has* someone else,
but he's a worthless sack of shit who's only good for one thing - so
you get all the duties and burdens of being a boyfriend (like taking
her out on dates, listening to her problems - but of course she only
has a care for *his* problems and can't take any of yours on top of
that - and being a standby social companion for when he's unavailable),
while he gets the corresponding privileges, including, all too often,
love, or what she mistakes for it.
Of course going out together socially or being emotionally close
needn't involve sex - but if someone chooses to bestow his or her
favors, emotional as well as sexual, on someone who is too cheap to
take him/her anywhere that doesn't have a mattress and too emotionally
stunted to engage in any sort of intimacy besides playing hide-the-
salami, it is certainly not up to the rest of humanity, including his
or her friends, to try and compensate for those shortcomings.[1]
> And all the time you think "what if?" but you're scared of finding
out if
> the "what ifs" are just an illusion. You get so scared of thinking
this
> person will run away from you if you test these specualtions.
Learn to ignore that fear. Anyone who is worth having as a friend won't
run away just because you express that, as long as you're reasonably
polite and don't keep pushing it if she's not interested.
> So nothing ever comes of it and she finds someone else and you're
stuck
> listening to her talk all about "him". And you do listen, b/c well,
you
> are her friend and that cannot change, but it stings, it stings so
fucking
> much. It hurts even more when you have to shake hands with this guy
> knowing that he is really a prick, but you don't want to say
anything, b/c
> you can't decide if you'd be giving her advice as a friend, or if yer
> trying to separate them so you could have a chance.
The last bit's always tough. However, I've learned to speak my mind if
I feel it's an honest reflection of caring for my friend and not a
desire to clear the field. Again, if she's a real friend, she'll
respect you for it if you're reasonably polite and not pushy.
Friends don't let friends date assholes. At least not without a warning.
> And this goes on and on. And you always place her above you, as
> you should b/c you are a friend, but it sucks to no end.
Nope. Friends should be equal. I will not put my friends on a pedestal
or sacrifice my own happiness for them, and I would not expect them to
do so for me.[2] That's the only basis for a true friendship. Anything
else is bound to lead to resentment sooner or later.
[1] The line between being a substitute boyfriend/girlfriend and being
a friend to someone who also happens to be involved in an exclusive
relationship is IMHO a situational judgment call but nonetheless
distinct.
[2] This is not to be confused with politeness in sometimes putting the
other's short-term comfort or convenience first, or consideration in
thinking of both your interests instead of just your own.
endymion...@my-deja.com
> If you want to Score with Lots Of Hot Chicks, learn to lie like a
> motherfucker. If you want to keep your honor and conscience intact,
learn
> to enjoy jerking off. There isn't a hell of a lot of middle ground.
I disagree. There is some truth to what you're saying, but I think
there's a lot of middle ground. One trick, which I can't claim to have
mastered, is taking on the style and appearance of a "Danger Man" but
not turning nasty after you've attracted your target. Telling the
little white lies that attract but not the big nasty ones that cause
the pain and suffering down the line.
After all, the only reason assholes get laid is because they fool their
victims into thinking they'll change for this one like they didn't for
any other. If the victim really thought he'd screw her over she
wouldn't be attracted; no one likes getting abused, the thrill is the
appearance of danger and not the reality - like a roller coaster.
So, like a roller coaster, let them see the illusion of risk but don't
let the car actually smash into the ground.
Example:
Pathetic nice guy approach - act desperate, like you'd do anything to
sleep with the girl you're after but know you're not worthy. If
(against all expectations) you succeed, act like you'll die if she
doesn't repeat the performance. Make her feel trapped.
Asshole approach - act like you could have any girl in the
room/scene/city, but you've picked her, and she should be thankful.
Make her feel unique and special, but not quite as unique and special
as you are. Make her think you could screw her over at any time but you
won't, because she's different from anyone else you've ever been with.
If she's the romantic (and gullible) type, tell her your life changed
the moment you saw her and that you'll never be able to look at a
lesser woman with desire again. Afterwards, tell her it was all a lie,
you just said it to get in her pants, and she was the worst lay (of
many) of you've ever had. That'll show how secure you are, put her in
her place, and keep her from coming back to annoy you!
Happy medium approach - act like you could have any girl in the
room/scene/city, but you've picked her, and she should seize the
opportunity. Make her feel unique and special, and try to show her ways
you are too. Let her realize that you, like anyone who isn't powerless
or hooked like a fish, could screw her over if you wanted to, but you
won't do that because you have no reason or desire to be cruel - and
you realize the same about her. If she's the romantic type, tell her
how she is uniquely attractive to you in some particular way (and if
she's not uniquely attractive to you in some way, why are you chasing
her so hard?) Afterwards, continue to treat her the same way; let her
know you're still around because you want to be with her and not
because you think no one else would have you. If you become
uninterested in continuing the relationship, tell her honestly and
explain that nothing has changed about her, that you still see the
things that first attracted you but that the situation has changed.
> The Champion just plain doesn't ask. Even if the Lady in question
might be
> interested. To do so would defile Her purity in the mind of the
Champion
> and things would Change.
> This brings to mind another flaw in the reasoning of the Lady's
Champion:
I'm glad you see that this is a fundamental flaw.
Madonna/whore complexes suck, for everyone involved.
endymion...@my-deja.com
> >Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing
is
> >neutral in nature.
>
>
> Nothing is gnawing pain for a long time, with a whole lot of
> interesting psychological repercussions that suck enormously.
You're locked in a padded cell, with sterile white walls and no form of
stimulation whatsoever. You are in here for life, or at least a Very
Long Time. It will likely drive you insane.
You crave some nice, interesting books. Books that will satisfy your
thirst for knowledge and understanding, but also just give you a way to
pass the time. Or maybe just a CD player and all your CDs from home.
Instead you are given the option to have a TV signal projected (with
sound) onto the wall of your cell. You can turn the program on or off
at will, and select between several not terribly diverse channels. You
have never much enjoyed TV and find the programming shallow and
uninteresting.
If your choice is between TV and freedom, freedom is the obvious choice.
If the choice is between constant, loud, uninterupted TV and no TV at
all, the former might be worse.
If the choice is between the cell with no TV at all and the option to
have TV constantly available but only when and to the extent you choose
to have it, how can choosing the latter possibly make you any worse
off? It certainly isn't distracting you from anything better.
Empty, what was forcing you to stay in that horrid relationship? (This
isn't meant to put you on the spot; if you don't want to discuss it
that's fine.)
It's not like Edvamp said he wanted to find someone shallow and
unrewarding, marry her, and have children. It sounds like all he wants
is the option to have what the other guy takes for granted.
Letterbomb
wrote:
>Yeah, I don't know about "completely", but I do think the
>apostles of True Love here are laying it on a little thick.
Ditto.
>And it's easy to say "you just need to be confident", but
>radiating "confidence" when you've crashed and burned the
>last half dozen times is quite a trick.
You're preaching to the choir, at least as far as I'm concerned. My
trick was to fake confidence (at least initially) in the following
manner:
Don't Care.
Just walk up to whoever takes your fancy, and Don't Care what their
response is. Don't Care if they laugh in your face. Don't Care if
they drag you into the toilets and perform unspeakable acts upon your
person. Don't Care.
Do. Not. Care.
It did wonders for me. If nothing happens, you Don't Care. If
something does happen, great. Your confidence gets boosted and the
drought is over and maybe you've made a friend or something. (shrug)
But it gives you legs, and that's important. And that's when you
really get confidence. I just treated the whole thing as a game.
This may sound a little cold, but it's not. It's just the manner I
used in order to ensure I didn't get wounded by a stranger's potential
rebuttal, and it worked, so therefore I recommend it.
Letterbomb
____________________________________________________________
Better the illusions that exalt us than ten thousand truths.
- Pushkin
ICQ: 16386278
David Gerard
:What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just because I am
:the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
:aren't supposed to have a mind.
You still *believe*, in your heart, that nice guys don't get laid, and that
the way to get laid is to be a bastard. As long as you believe this, you
will not get laid, and part of you will consider that evidence of virtue.
--
http://xenu.netizen.com.au/ http://www.caube.org.au/
"HTML's a cheap whore. Treating her with respect is possible, and even pref-
erable, because once upon a time she was a beautiful and virginal format, but
you shouldn't expect too much of her at this point." (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
David Gerard
:Let me see if I can be more reassuring. If you look around,
:I'm sure you'll find examples of guys who look worse than
:you do who are doing better with women. So the problem
:isn't just that you're ugly, it's that you're stupid -- uh,
:no that's not quite it.
It's as good a way as anyone's put it :-)
:I wrote some stuff about this once back in my equivalent
:"phase", (and if my piece-of-shit ISP ever wakes up, you
:might be able to read some of it):
:http://www.grin.net/~mirthless/doomfiles/DRYSPELL.html
Letterbomb
wrote:
>Quoth cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Letterbomb) on Mon, 07 Feb 2000
>13:26:58 GMT:
>>On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:05:35 GMT, emptyCA...@theriver.com (Empty)
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>As someone who has spent eight months of the last year in an utterly
>>>miserable relationship with a beautiful, but vapid, shell of a human
>>>being, I can tell you to shut up right now Edvamp.
>>
>>legitimacy of your experience outweighs the intensity or legitimacy of
>>Edvamp's.
>
>I am most certainly not saying my experience was in any way more
>intense or legitimate.
>
>What I *am* saying, is that I have been there. And it's not a road I'd
>care to see any of my friends go down.
Fair enough. But naysaying the sensual joys of a vapid one night
stand to someone in the midst of a crisis like this I think is a
little rash.Too broad a stroke.
Don't get me wrong. I've been with some dyed-in-the-wool psychos.
I've spent nights in cold rain trying to stop my g/f slashing her
wrists with a busted alarm clock, the same girl that almost bit my
lower lip clean off one night, for no good reason. And I was in that
situation because it was a relationship that got launched in a club
without my getting to know her first.
But.
She was also some of the best sex I've ever had, and she came along at
just the right time and salved me like nothing else could, for that
very reason. See my explanation in response to Dave Gerard.
It wasn't a good relationship by any means, but I wouldn't go back and
change it either.
I think people need to accidentally walk into walls, and learn from
it. It's not like someone is gonna get into a potentially vapid
relationship and be screwed over every single time. You could argue
that intimately knowing what a crap relationship is like will make you
a better partner when you _do_ find a person you want, and is right
for you.
Shielding people from folly breeds a nation of fools, to (I'm sure)
misquote someone who said it best. Kids in shielded environments
become little bastards once they're allowed to stretch their fettered
wings. I say go out there and do what you need to and come what may,
just do it sensibly. Take your knocks, for your own good, and like
it.
>>>I'd like to have something on my cock, but if that something is
>>>pruning shears, I'll pass.
>>
>>Sure. But you didn't go into the relationship expecting that to
>>happen, did you? I hope not.
>
>Not expecting, no. But I should have been.
This I can relate to. (see above)
>>>Point being, something is not always better than nothing... nothing is
>>>neutral in nature.
>>
>>Oh ho, my young Casanova, no nothing is not. (<-- wow. )
>>
>>Nothing is gnawing pain for a long time, with a whole lot of
>>interesting psychological repercussions that suck enormously.
>
>So something bad is better than nothing good?
Yes.
Between being locked in a closet with absolutely no stimuli whatsoever
for years on end, and the same thing with someone twisting my nipple,
I'll take the latter.
Between getting kissed and getting herpes and never kissing at all,
I'll take the hottest and longest kiss you've got.
Between having loved and lost... you know the words.
>I suppose this whole thread is growing more and more subjective as it
>wears on...
For sure.
From a socio-sexual standpoint I'd be interested to see if it's
primarily the girls on the side of True Love here.
> My point, however, was that vapid, unfulfilling
>relationships are worse than being alone. IME. YMMV.
Spend twenty years alone and get back to me.
>~Empty, there, Letterbomb, did I disclaim that one enough for you?
I think you're overreacting.
Letterbomb
>Cameron, you are one of the most *beautiful* men I can think of [1]. You're
>gorgeous, you're smart, you're cultured, you're a nice guy.
I honestly have no idea what to say to that, but thank you. :)
>JESUS, YOU PEOPLE. WHAT IS *WRONG* WITH YOU?!
That and the fact that while I can relate to Edvamp, my life is no
longer like that.
My life *was* like that for the first 22 years because I was
unfortunate enough to have been born in sunny Cairns, Far North
Queensland, Australia.
Say something intelligent and they'll treat you like an idiot.
It wasn't until I moved to Brisbane that I realised it wasn't me that
was utterly fucked, it was every other resident of that pustule of a
town.
Pretty as it is, if you haven't been raised there. I recommend the
rainforest.
Actually, every part of Queensland north of Brisbane is like that.
The freaks saved me, what can I tell you.
>How do I put this ... Cameron ... Ed ... it's not the *world* that's wrong.
I know. Really. Some of us honestly don't fit in, and that's not
self-indulgent pre-fab angst, it's reality. (shrug)
>:Letterbomb (who says confidence goes further than anything else.)
>
>Fuck. You need the goddamn Wizard of Oz to grant you Confidence, so you'll
>actually believe it or something?
I've got confidence coming out my ears. But I didn't not so long ago.
Spending your high school years being shunned and told you're an ugly
fucker with a big nose will do that to you.
Cam's Tip-O-The-Day: You're socially bulletproof unless you forget
you're socially bulletproof.
>[1] maaaate y know maaaate I think you should know maaaaate you're
>gooorgeous maaate, not that I'm a poof or nothin ... Oh wait, I am. Sorry.
I'm sure I'll live. :)
TSM
>>You seriously need to ditch this
>> Draconian notion you have that
>> wanting -and seeking- sex from someone
>> makes you less of a person.
>
> This isn't something I pulled out of thin air. Every time I have let on to
>a friend that I found her attractive the reaction was almost always one of
>betrayel.
[X]
It doesn't matter.
She wasn't up for it,
no biggie, mon frond.
That has the distinct ring
of someone else's problem.
Now I'm not saying that
your freinds are nuts,
but part of life is
the varied reactions you're
liable to experience.
I promise you that there is
someone out there who won't
see you as a sibling,
but odds are she won't be coming
after you with abandon because most
people just aren't "like that."
The people I've known who've fed me
<beliveable>
stories of attractive sexual partners
they've had in the past just walking
up to them and saying
"Fuck me like you own me"
Can be counted on one hand.
It ain't gonna fall into your lap, man.
>Ever and Always
>Edvamp
--TSM
Edvamp
>on men as often as we would like to. We live in a culture that labels
>sexually assertive women as sluts, tramps, whores, all manner of derisive
>labels.
Most goth women get that anyway just for being goths and dressing like that.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
(David Gerard) wrote:
> On 08 Feb 2000 00:42:02 GMT, Edvamp <edv...@aol.comKILLKILL> wrote:
>
> :What pisses me off is that I'm expected not to have a libido just
because I am
> :the nice guy. It's the opposite extreme I guess as the attractive people who
> :aren't supposed to have a mind.
>
>
> You still *believe*, in your heart, that nice guys don't get laid, and that
> the way to get laid is to be a bastard. As long as you believe this, you
> will not get laid, and part of you will consider that evidence of virtue.
Ahem. Edvamp hit the nail on the head. Drove it into the wood pretty
convincingly too (that imagery makes me go all funny. Ooh!). It is a
plain, simple fact of life that nice guys do _not_ get laid. Two reasons:
1) Nice guys will not make any kind of move, even when they're
interested - they don't want to be sleazy even when the situation calls
for it. This aversion to sleaze often gets overdone so that no move is
made, even if it _wouldn't_ be sleazy.
2) Girls prefer absolute bastards. If every girl that approached me
with the "You're [my real name]. You play in [my band]/You work at [my
place of employment]...[snip small talk]...I thought you were arrogant but
you're a really nice guy. My boyfriend's a complete prick but I love him
so much and [spiel/plea for advice]" schtick bought me a drink then I'd
have saved a considerable amount of money on going out by now. Come to
think of it, they usually do buy me a drink...Hic.
I've always had success when appearing to be the complete bastard who
spits vitriol in the faces of any male who approaches me and feigns
superiority to every human being who ever walked the face of the planet.
I'm too old and wrinkly to do that sort of thing these days but I can
vouch for its success when I was in my early to mid twenties.
More often, I'm just "such a nice guy" which can be exactly translated as
(as I've probably posted before) "sex appeal of a road accident" [1].
Blerg.
Mr Q. Z. D.
[1] - Messrs Ballard and Cronenberg notwithstanding.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"Since I've given up food, I can really taste my cigarettes."
http://hyperion.humsoc.utas.edu.au/qzd
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> The Evil Chemist wrote:
...About the "substitute boyfriend" phenomenon.
> Oh, it gets much worse. The real joy is when she *has* someone else,
> but he's a worthless sack of shit who's only good for one thing
Usually decoration, whether physical beauty or "grooviness". I would hate
to think that these pretty/groovy bois are also great in the sack.
> - so
> you get all the duties and burdens of being a boyfriend (like taking
> her out on dates, listening to her problems - but of course she only
> has a care for *his* problems and can't take any of yours on top of
> that
Oft times she can but she's helpless to do anything about them. She
doesn't find _you_ appealling but can't think of why other people don't
(after all, you're _such_ a sweet guy) and thus can suggest nothing.
> - and being a standby social companion for when he's unavailable),
> while he gets the corresponding privileges, including, all too often,
> love, or what she mistakes for it.
...In this case the devotion to someone who is either beautiful or cool.
[snip]
Been there. Done that. I am thoroughly sick of it and wish that there
was some justice out there. Of course, there's not. That's the way the
elephant rotates.
Mr Q. Z. D., getting ever more angstful the more he reads this thread.
Siobhan
<mag...@monkeyTRAPbrains.net> wrote:
>Yeh, well, even the most beautiful "bois" have probably crashed and
>burned a Hell of a lot more than that. I know a lot of non-beautiful
>"bois" who use their confidence as a springboard for their "lack" of
>"boi-ish" good looks and do really damn well. The first trick is in
>understanding that they will crash and burn nine times out of ten, like
>in any venture in life.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I have failed at *everything* I have tried to do in life. Usually
more than once.
I have also succeeded at everything I've done. Often solely because
I too damn pig-headed to give it up.
As an approach to romance it's not elegant, but it will get you
laid.
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
Love conquers all, rapes all, pillages all, and
leaves all for dead. ~Pratt & Dikkers
Siobhan
wrote:
>On 08 Feb 2000 00:42:02 GMT, Edvamp <edv...@aol.comKILLKILL> wrote:
>>Also, a few people, mainly Narnia and Jennie I think, have said how much it
>>sucks for people to be nice to them merely for the purpose of getting them into
>>bed. Yes, that does sound like it would suck. It's cheap and it's demeaning
>>and they deserve better.
>
>But that's how it is done. If you don't like telling lies, get used to a
>life without cheap, meaningless nookie. And I don't care what anyone says,
>cheap meaningless nookie can be a lot of fun.
*blink*
Why is it necessary to lie to get nookie?
I mean what the hell are you telling them? That you *don't* want
sex? I don't get it.
Canticle
Siobhan wrote:
> *blink*
> Why is it necessary to lie to get nookie?
> I mean what the hell are you telling them? That you *don't* want
> sex? I don't get it.
Well, to be honest...
I've had not a few crumbled near relationships simply due to the fact
that I took too long and spent too much time telling the female involved
I WASN'T sexually attracted to them and had probably made a mistake in
assuming that there was something more than friendship involved.
And as a result had said females swear up and down that I was wretched
scum.
Honesty has its good points and its bad points, really. I'd say that
anyone looking for nookie alone will have a far easier time avoiding
honesty and simply going for what they want. Honesty would just
complicate matters.
Which is why I think meaningless nookie sucks, but hey, thats my
opinion.
Jeff-boy
Rosser Schwarz
: <endymion...@my-deja.com> :
: > [1] Most hetero women will say they're willing to be aggressive (if only it
: > didn't scare men off! - which translates to "If only I didn't face the
: > same odds of rejection as every man who has ever approached a woman")...
: I have to disagree with your presumption of women's motives for not pouncing
: on men as often as we would like to. We live in a culture that labels
: sexually assertive women as sluts, tramps, whores, all manner of derisive
: labels.
and we live in a -sub-culture that deliberately defies standard societal
norms and mores, sexual and otherwise, we have a vastly higher incidence
of polyamoury than society at large and we're arguably more promiscuous;
we reserve with special loathing words like 'mundane' for those who are
unable or unwilling to break out of the kind of world-view which says,
among other things, that sexually aggressive women are sluts.
intra-subculturally [1] those norms, while certainly not -ir-relevant,
should be significantly-to-vanishingly less so than out in the day-to-
day world.
if it's the case that, on the whole, women are more sexually reticent
than men, either we're only play-acting at having 'scaped those mores or
there's some truth to the notion of women being just as afraid of
rejection, but less willing to act in spite of it.
allowing, of course, for variation by individuals, as well as the fact
that i'm just as bloody scared and haven't "tarted with intent" in
years. ;\
: I think this is far more a deterrent than fear of rejection, because
: frankly, most guys are plenty happy to frolic when given half a chance.
and are you giving those half-chances? i ask not to make any sort of
appelation, but because i'm interested in the numbers behind this claim
and whether they're based on experience, anecdotal evidence, conjecture
or "common wisdom."
maybe i'm not most guys, but i'm not about to make the beast with two
backs with just anyone, even in the throes my current dry spell. i have
criteria a person has to meet before i'll go there (and, while i'll be
the first to admit that some of them are physical, they're also usually
the ones i'm most willing to set aside if the rest "passes muster," as
it were).
given that, and that i know i can't be wholly unique in that regard, i
have some small trouble simply accepting the above at face value.
--rosser
[1] i think that's the most post-modern thing i've ever said. i'll do
much penance. ;>
--
the day is done but i don't think i got it right.
-- jawbreaker
Hardrock Llewynyth
Year of Our Lord Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:53:32 -0000:
>> IME, a lot of women who say that do so because they lack self
>> esteem and honestly don't think they're good enough for you. That, or,
>> because the friendship has become established as non-sexual, they would
>> find it awkward, or they assume that _you_ would find it awkward, if they
>> started flirting, and they're sufficiently fond of you to be afraid of
>> losing you like that.
No, that is far from the case. I know, i've tried taking it farther,
tried telling them that i fancied them and since they were looking for
someone like me, i was, in fact, available and pretty strongly
attracted to them.
A lot of them quit talking to me after that. The rest just gave me
the usual "i think of you like a brother" crap.
>I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, while I'm sure that what Jennie
>says is often true, it can simply be a case of lack of chemistry; I've been
And it can be looking like a scary crack-monkey.
What pisses me off is that they tell me i'm cute, tell me i'm very
attractive, tell me that they want someone just like me. When i
complain that i'm ugly and stupid they tell me i'm too hard on myself.
Then i ask them if they want to be involved with me since i'm such a
wonderful person; and they laugh in my face; tell me that there is no
way they could ever consider such a thing.
Or they do get involved, and spend a night going at it like cranked up
stoats. Then when they sober up, tell you they never want anything to
do with you again.
>Which doesn't help Edvamp any, I'm afraid; All I can say is that in every
>case I've known, sooner or later someone has pounced on the man in question
>and left him in no doubt that they wanted _more_ than friendship; Sometimes
>it takes some time, and sometimes you have to learn to be happy with
>yourself before someone can see you making _them_ happy too.
And sometimes it is all just a load of bullshit and all the feel-good
Disneyism happy-ending crap is just salt in an open wound.
Hardrock, worthless piece of shit no one in their right mind would
have anything to do with.
--
Hardrock Llewynyth GAC DNRC hard...@speakeasy.org
http://www.speakeasy.org/~hardrock/
I will honour and express all facets of my being; regardless
of state and local laws.