Net.goths fucked the CATWALK
S Nelson
Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
little nerds. I've seen more posts complaining about how "other goths
look down on me" or "why can't I be a goth even though I'm fat, 35, and
got into it last year." The fact that there was a string debating
whether or not washing your clothes was necessary should tell you
something about why you are not welcome in polite or fashionable
society.
That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth. I'm reminded of an anecdote
from Captain Sensible about the early punk rock days in London. He and
some of his friends were at a club, and Siouxsie Sioux came up to them
and sneeringly said that they weren't real punks. She had on some
outfit from Sex or someplace that must have cost a couple of hundred
dollars. She was probably wrong that they weren't real punks, but they
certainly wouldn't have been real goths. Siouxsie, on the other hand,
definitely was, and her attitude is characteristic of the attitude that
real goths have always had. To see no difference or -- worse yet -- to
think that there should be no difference between an exquisite black
velvet dress and a T-shirt and jeans is like feeling the same about the
Sisters of Mercy and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Many posts have complained about being judged by other goths when they
go to nightclubs. It is sad but not surprising that their authors
aren't in the habit of being judged, or perhaps they avoid such
situations as much as possible. The problem with this is in deciding to
be goths in the first place, they are already judging mainstream society
-- represented by sports, parents, school, Samurais, Dockers, etc. -- to
be unacceptable, aesthetically unacceptable, to be specific. That is
the fatal first step, though. Once you step into a world that's
supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
try.
Become witty, and this does not mean memorizing Monty Python routines.
Become interesting, and not by being Fan Guest of Honor. Above all,
don't think that your depression or failure is interesting. These can
be fascinating in art, but only if it's really good. The odds that your
spiral-bound batch of first-draft poetry is really good are slim.
Why don't you spend the time you spent figuring out your gaming
character's equipment last week figuring out what attractive outfit you
will wear to go out this week? If that's possible. Some people are not
attractive, and no amount of in-group paraphernalia can make them so.
You can wear ankhs and Eyes of Horus till you jingle, but if you are a
fat tub of lard, one, keep yourself decently covered; and two, don't
expect to get any, and please don't try. Do everyone a favor and lose
some weight. This substitution of totems for good aesthetic choices has
dealt a near-death blow to the S/M community, at least in Seattle, where
the perverts are ugly and not afraid to flaunt it.
Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
cynical.
Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
thought that it matters.
For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
people around you.
Super Dimension Fortress Macross
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) wrote:
>Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
>the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
>to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
[large dripping amouts of rant deleted]
>For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
>those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
>hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
>will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
>people around you.
uh huh. and who are you? *wave*
if you ever tried to pull that in detroit, the whole club would prolly
kick your ass... and keep kicking it all the way back to
grunge-town...
pretentious fuck.
thanks for re-affirming my sense of self, nelson.
If youre Gothic, I'll take net.gothic any day of the week.
ps- I hope the "net-dweebs" "gamers" et al run you and yer pals right
out of every club you like. then you'll have something oh so
fashionable to mope over.
-Glen (who thinks if this was a troll, it was a damn good one)
Skate-Gundy
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
>music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
>They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
>real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
>produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
>thought that it matters.
>For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
>those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
>hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
>will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
>people around you.
I suggest you either 1) lurk until you know what you are talking
about and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions.
You actually think that in your little corner of the world,
that's where all the goths exist? Don't be so vain. There
are people who've been into goth longer than you and there will be
people who find you to be a poseur, even in Seattle. Convergence I
showed everyone to be the genuine article and I find it doubtful
that any poseur or Troll would trek a couple of days and spend
$ and time on meeting net.goths they had met through alt.gothic.
If I were to follow your example, equating people I did not
know to be gamers and con-goers, I would find you a teenybopper
who claims to be goth for so long, but was in baggy clothes
just a year ago...
Net.goths are just like any other goths, except that we have
a community here (which means... a social life)
Now what about the net.goth who runs a nightclub and the
net.goths who are DJ's at radios and clubs, and those
that are in bands and those working in the recording industry...?
Careful now, you might be offending someone in your
future. And what about those net.goths who have 'zines
and have published material?
I have had a play performed. I have had poetry readings.
I have had poems published. I've had a short story about
the gothic subculture win in a literary environment. Upon
never reading any of my material or meeting me, you say
that my work sux? It doesn't really matter what you say,
because I had a grant to write short stories, I had a
full tuition scholarship on the basis of what I did.
But I don't write this to play a "bigger and better"
game with you, I write this to tell you that you need to open
your eyes and reserve judgment before you open your mouth.
lXs
--
=======****> "What! No rat salad?! This is a day without sunshine."
WEB PAGE UNDER CONSTRUCTION at:
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~slchen/
Count Von Sexbat
In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
sane...@u.washington.edu "friendless undergraduate" loses:
>The problem is that net.goths all suck.
net.goth, n. One who posts to alt.gothic.
Condemed out of your own mouth?
3/10 (Bonus point for writing paragraphs, but lacks understanding of the
first rule of usenet - "There is always someone who knows more than
you", and the second rule of usenet - "There are too many people
for crass generalizations")
You do not win a kebab, however you are eligible for a signed
photograph of London taken from a plane during an emergency landing,
please forward your home address to claim your prize.
/\../\
Sexbat
hell
--
/.\../.\ | Hearse-reversing, hooch-drinking slam-dancing
sex...@batt.demon.co.uk | caffeine-guzzling hair-spiking, hardcore
Take a Bite 4: Due October 1996 | net.goth from hell(TM)
Aircrash Monthly ----> http://www.demon.co.uk/bat/aircrash
Skate-Gundy
mac...@tir.com (Super Dimension Fortress Macross) writes:
>-Glen (who thinks if this was a troll, it was a damn good one)
No, I don't think it was a troll. Slogan wrote about the
same thing with just about the same level of pretentiousness.
I hope he had a good time at PowerTools bec. the SWgoths did
go.
Jennifer J. Barkas
In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
S Nelson <sane...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
>the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
>to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
>I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
>little nerds. I've seen more posts complaining about how "other goths
>look down on me" or "why can't I be a goth even though I'm fat, 35, and
>got into it last year." The fact that there was a string debating
>whether or not washing your clothes was necessary should tell you
>something about why you are not welcome in polite or fashionable
>society.
<excess crap deleted>
i take it your post is merely a troll (or, a plea for attention)
so therefore it doesn't warrant being replied to in full.
--
j.j. medusa glitter goth
Kevin O' Gorman
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
<namedrop>
[Siouxsie anecdote deleted]
This story rings hollower than well, something extremely hollow.
For a start, in the early punk-rock days, you were as likely to see
Siouxsie in a crappy boilersuit as sequins - more likely, in fact.
(Source: an ex-bf of hers, and photos/posters.)
Furthermore, check for internal inconsistencies next time.
And furthermore, the attitude you ascribe to the woman doesn't tally
with said bf's description.
>Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
>no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
>hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
>you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
>try.
Dear Stupido the Gothificent,
You seem to be one of these people who basically
are "in it" for sex. This, while not entirely crap, is a bit pathetic. We,
the posters to this newsgroup, have seen your type come and go. We've watched
your shallow existences spiralling down into a job at MacDonalds, a
dull raver girlf, and all the close-shaven trappings of that situation.
I give you another year, at best, before either you can't keep it up anymore,
discover E and spend your time paying $$$ for tapwater, or everybody else
figures out that you're an insignificant piece of shite, whose questionable
prowess in the bedchamber just doesn't make up for your gutter-personality, or
all of the above.
>Why don't you spend the time you spent figuring out your gaming
>character's equipment last week figuring out what attractive outfit you
>will wear to go out this week?
Dear Arsehole-o the Black,
Quite a lot of the people here have never played
rpgs, and even if they did, you still have re-iterated your own lack of
intelligence. "What attractive outfit"? Are you the tulpa of James Forgy,
his beliefs and secret desires split off and on the 'net?
>attractive, and no amount of in-group paraphernalia can make them so.
>You can wear ankhs and Eyes of Horus till you jingle, but if you are a
>fat tub of lard, one, keep yourself decently covered; and two, don't
>expect to get any, and please don't try.
Dear Shithead of the Shadows,
If I ever meet you, you're going home with
a broken nose, and if I have the time, two shattered kneecaps.
Who the fuck do you think you are, telling other people how they should
and shouldn't be? By the look of it, you're a nobody, in a small, isolated
scene in a fucking pine-forest. Your sole contribution to goth has, apparently,
been a model to strive away from.
Do everyone a favor and lose
>some weight. This substitution of totems for good aesthetic choices has
>dealt a near-death blow to the S/M community, at least in Seattle, where
>the perverts are ugly and not afraid to flaunt it.
Which shows that you have about as much clue about fetish scenes in general
as rednecks do about goth.
>Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
>drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
>burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
>distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
>cynical.
Dear Myopic little Nothingness,
Congratulations on managing to get your
head so far up your jacksey! Drugs build character? As a former heavy user,
(of everything save narcotics and E) I can safely say that in fact the only
building of character that goes on in connection with them is trying to
piece yourself together after said usage.
Similarly, have you ever met an addict? Of anything? They've burnt off
as much emotional babyfat as I've had spacewalks.
>For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you.
I could make you want me with a toss of my head and a click of my
fingers, you little jerk-off.
But rest assured, you'd never have me. I don't hang out with pathetic,
short-sighted, fuckheads like you; and I certainly don't condescend to
sleep with them.
K.
-
--
"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea/By sea-girls wreathed T( )T
with seaweed red and brown/Till human voices wake us, and we drown."| )( |
GoNQ TPAd PMo M3 C6o a20- b71 g7L w7T r8ebIs s50 Rz Sr N0693 Lie -v2.5 |(/\)|
{http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~spidey/index.html}---{spi...@maths.tcd.ie} ======
Cindy Kurneck
In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, sane...@u.washington.edu
(S Nelson) wrote:
>
> I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
> little nerds.
Yawn
> That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
> An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
> time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth.
oh. thanks. I'm on my way to J.C. Penny's. (snort)
>
> Many posts have complained about being judged by other goths when they
> go to nightclubs. It is sad but not surprising that their authors
> aren't in the habit of being judged, or perhaps they avoid such
> situations as much as possible. The problem with this is in deciding to
> be goths in the first place, they are already judging mainstream society
> -- represented by sports, parents, school, Samurais, Dockers, etc. -- to
> be unacceptable, aesthetically unacceptable, to be specific. That is
> the fatal first step, though. Once you step into a world that's
> supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
> judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
> parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
> nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
Hmmmm.... wait a sec, I'm lost. In the last paragraph you state that you *must*
be a rabid comsumer before you can be *really* goth. Your rhetoric
is confusing.
> Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
> no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
> hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
> you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
> try.
[lots of pretenious stuff snipped. snip]
> Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
> you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
> heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
> towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
> grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
> You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
I'm trying not to giggle. Honest. I'll bet you are quite the expert. Right?
Let me guess. Designer drugs. right? Or perhaps you roll yer own.
Oooo. Wow. heh.
> For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you.
Oh please. Like I give a flying fuck if *you* personally "want" me.
I don't care. You're a pretentious ass. Bite me.
--
Cindy Kurneck
University of Pittsburgh
Central Business Services - PIRRS Project
kurn...@pitt.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~kurneck
Skate-Gundy
>In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, sane...@u.washington.edu
>(S Nelson) wrote:
>> Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
>> you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
>> heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
>> towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
>> grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
>> You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
I admit to having skimmed through the article and did not catch this.
You're pathethic or deluded. There's no requirement for goths to
on drugs. I have a friend (who is a goth) in Seattle and I am
glad he is off speed. He borrowed money, got into trouble, had
to get $ from his parents, became homeless, and finally got thrown
into rehab. His band was supposed to be on a CD, but he never got
his act together.
Gudrun
In article <4phb4r$i...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, kal...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
says...
>>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>
>i take it your post is merely a troll (or, a plea for attention)
>so therefore it doesn't warrant being replied to in full.
>
>
>--
>j.j. medusa
glitter goth
Best answer so far. Why do this guy a favour...
G.
Karen Kardell
> Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
> The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
> opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
> the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
> to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
Oh really, I was there too, and I didn't notice these things and I saw
only two other net.goths there that I know (although I didn't get a chance
to say "Hi".) One thing you might keep in mind is that their liquor
license has been suspended and they are unable to serve alcohol at the
present time so it was *not* as crowded as usual and the play room has
been shut down for the time being. And by the way, the Catwalk is *not* a
gothic only nightclub. Most of the music played is industrial. The
smaller room is generally reserved for more strictly "gothic" music.
*Your* attitude is primarily why the gothic scene in Seattle is
degenerated. There is little room for creativity or spontanity here
because people like you are stuck with a textbook idea of what clothes are
cool.
>
> I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
> little nerds. I've seen more posts complaining about how "other goths
> look down on me" or "why can't I be a goth even though I'm fat, 35, and
> got into it last year." The fact that there was a string debating
> whether or not washing your clothes was necessary should tell you
> something about why you are not welcome in polite or fashionable
> society.
You're not being too particularly "polite" here are you? Guess you don't
belong in "polite and fashionable society either".
>
> That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
> An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
> time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth.
And *you* don't know what gothic is either as evidenced by this inane
comment, so please refrain from telling others what being a goth is all
about.
>
> The fact that their rejection of the trailer
> parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
> nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
Sorry, I didn't grow up in a trailer park. I was a very rich little girl
who grew up in a prestigious suburb of Los Angeles. And what the Hell
does it matter where someone grew up? The gothic mindset is found
anwhere, including I'm sure some people in trailer parks.
>
> Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
> no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
> hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
> you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
> try.
Funny thing, but I'm not interested in talking to people that are so
concerned with outward appearances. Usually, that indicates a complete
lack of depth and substance, something *I* consider very ungothic.
>
> Why don't you spend the time you spent figuring out your gaming
> character's equipment last week figuring out what attractive outfit you
> will wear to go out this week?
Sorry, I'm not into gaming so I wouldn't know about that.
> Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
> you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
> heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
> towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
> grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
> You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
This is the most incredible bullshit I have ever heard. Drugs have
nothing to do with being gothic. Ask all the grunge people who are od'ing
on heroin left and right about that one. I bet they'd be really offended
if you called them "gothic". Drugs have nothing to do with being part of
any scene. People use and do not use in "all" different genres. I don't
drink or take drugs and I've never been to a convention in my life. I
think you've used so many drugs that perhaps it has resulted in some
degeneration of your brain capacity, certainly something I have no desire
to have.
>
> Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
> drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
> burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
> distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
> cynical.
You're talking to someone who has used every single drug on Earth to
excess at some points in her life. You know when I lost my emotional baby
fat? When I stopped taking them. Drug "abuse" and I'm talking abuse
here, not recreational use which a lot of people can partake in, stunts
ones emotional growth. When you stop your addiction you are left
emotionally at the same age as when you started. If you start at 12 and
stop at 25, you're still 12 emotionally. Emotional maturity comes through
dealing with life's experiences without chemically altering the emotions
you feel behind them. Again, I'm referring here to "heavy use" as you so
advocate, not occasional partying.
>
> Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
> music, and sex.
Wow, I'm in a band and a net.goth, guess I blew that stupid theory away.
Let's see, Brian Hodges from Black Atmosphere posts occasionally, so does
Greg Forschler from Fear of Dolls and Ninth Circle, DJ Azrael is a
net.goth, so is Voron, Vervaine, Lauren, Kirsti & Jherek etc..I think
perhaps you should not open your mouth until you know what you're talking
about. Oh, and by the way, I am not *that* concerned with fashion or sex.
Those things are nice but not the sole relevancy to my existence. If they
are for you, you're going to have one sad, empty life.
>
> For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
> those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
> hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
> will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
> people around you.
You know what I'm wondering here. How long have *you* been into gothic?
If the *only* things you see about the gothic aesthetic are clothing,
drugs and sex, you're *not* gothic. And if you'd read the goth code,
you'd also realize that the gothic clothing aesthetic encompasses a wide
variety of styles and looks. You can be as appropriate on the outside as
you like, but on the inside is where it really matters. Have you been
into this lifestyle for 14 years as I have? (And this is not to put down
newer people, some of them are the *best*). Have you ever been in a band?
Have you ever contributed something positive to the scene other than
*your* whining and crying about people not looking as *cool* as you think
they should? Guess what, a lot of the people in bands (which apparently
is cool to you) "laugh" at people like you. Yeah, I like to dress up too,
and I find no need to do that 24 hrs. a day, but that is a reflection of
how I feel inside.. you on the other hand have spent far too much time
looking at the outsides of people and far too little time trying to
understand why those of us who "dress appropriately" do it.
-karen
--
"At no time in my life have I been a person to hold myself polluted by the touch, habits or approach of any creature other than those who were human shape." Austin Osman Spare, c.1945
Bradley W Zimmerman
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 10-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
CA.. by Count Von Sex...@batt.de
> In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
> sane...@u.washington.edu "friendless undergraduate" loses:
8< respectively snipped >8
> You do not win a kebab, however you are eligible for a signed
> photograph of London taken from a plane during an emergency landing,
> please forward your home address to claim your prize.
dammit, guys....
finally someone so infinately stupid comes along who manages to get
my dander up enough to torch his posterior, and EVERYONE
gets to him first.... so i'll refrain from any muscle flexing in
public....
tho' t'would've been fun.....
i wanna kebab...
*pout*
_______________________________THE RAPHRAT_______________________________
rap...@CMU.EDU =http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~bz29/raphrat.html=
*bounce*ing, 2tone-skanking | "I was hoping she'd look at me
chain-smoking perky-gothpunk | but she was checking out the Lima beans
from "da 'burgh" |and artichokes/my heart was broke in pieces"
________________________CO-FOUNDER: ALT.GOTHIC.CRs________________________
Hardrock and Arethusa
Thus saith Skate-Gundy the Unworthy, in the Year of Our Lord 10 Jun 1996 01:54:25 -0700 :
> sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
[a really pathetic rant]
> Now what about the net.goth who runs a nightclub and the
> net.goths who are DJ's at radios and clubs, and those
> that are in bands and those working in the recording industry...?
> Careful now, you might be offending someone in your
> future. And what about those net.goths who have 'zines
> and have published material?
>
met here (don't necessary consider myself gothic, since it is merely a
label and doesn't say anything about me as a person). This is probably
the same sort of person who spent most of last couple of years wearing the
homey g baggie pants and complaining about how all the hip-hop clubs were
infested by gansta-wannabes.
BTW, to all who care, i am back at my club, spinning discs again.
Bring on that Front 242!
Hardrock
--
Hardrock Llewynyth, DNRC and Arethusa Nightshade
hard...@speakeasy.org http://kendaco.telebyte.com/dharland
There is no sunny side of the street at night.
--Lavinnia + +
v v
Skate-Gundy
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
>your fiction world.
You are in your own fiction world because you do not seem to
show an ability to change the way you think.
alt.gothic
does not exist merely in cyberspace - We know each other
personally - I would say this is true for the D.C. goths
and the chi.goths and the Austin.goths etc. Do you not
like technology?
Why didn't you go look at the NEWBIES post then?
>For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
>the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
>is apparently "There is always someone who knows more
>than you." I'm not claiming to know more than anybody. I do
Sexbat is making fun of you, that's all.
>Now let's hear from Skate Gundy, or lXs for short: "I suggest
>you either 1) Lurk until you know what you are talking about
>and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
>2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions."
>I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
>just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
>out at all. And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
Are you scared that they'll see that you are a poseur?
>You're all right here. I suppose if I wanted to see you I
>might go, but for reasons which should be all too clear, I don't.
No, we're not. #gothic is very strong, and from what I hear,
most of the Toronto/Southern Ontario list is from IRC
The Bay.Area net.goths prefer their mailing list, as
do most of the Austin.net.goths (and the NYC-L, it appears)
I haven't seen any of the SWgoths for a while, except on
the Convergence list.
But you seem to think that goth=Vampire role playing. If so,
I suggest you go down to alt.vampyres or #vampcafe
More to your liking, perhaps?
>lXs continues: "You actually think that in your little corner
>of the world, that's where all the goths exist? Don't be so
>vain. There are people who've been into goth longer than you
>and there will be people who find you to be a poseur, even in
>Seattle. Convergence I showed everyone to be the genuine article
>and I find it doubtful that any poseur or Troll would trek a
>couple of days and spend $ and time on meeting net.goths they
>had met through alt.gothic."
>Everyone was the genuine article, huh? Did they all win a
>participation ribbon too? You praise their efforts spent
>going to a convention. This would seem to establish their
>bona fides as con dweebs, but hardly as goths, and certainly
>not as nightclubbers.
Convergence a convention? Please describe what a convention
is like because I've never been to one.
From what I've heard, Convergence I was partially sponsored by
Cleopatra Records, and therefore had bands like The Wake,
Sunshine Blind, (and in fact, the line-up's very similar to
this year's... except maybe Christian Death is playing this
year) as well as net.goth bands who were on labels.
But what about you? I'm concerned for you; you don't
seem to get out very much.
>Many people post here bitching about how they go out to clubs
>and are treated with disdain. I'm giving them better advice
Oh really? Like who? Name someone I know.
>won't excuse them if they decide to look and act like fuckups
>when they go out. Speaking from experience, I've known very
>few industry people who would go to a "meet" of any sort
>in a million years. Ditto DJ's. As for zines, they are at
>least as likely to be crap as any other "literary
>environment," whatever that is.
So how many industry people do you know? I'm interested.
What have you been doing lately besides whining about net.goths?
Why should anyone listen to you? You haven't shown yourself
to have any particular knowledge.. C'mon, tell us... what
music do you like, what do you dress like, what's your latest
job opportunity?
>Sorry about your little friend, lXs. Nothing succeeds like
>success and nothing fails like failure.
Ah. He does very well for himself these days.
>I don't know most of the net.goths you mentioned, but
You don't know about Black Atmosphere? How long have you
been in the Seattle goth scene anyway?
>By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
>specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
>and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
No, you're not. You're writing about alt.gothic
Go read over your first post.
Verily amused,
William C Isenhour
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
>music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
>They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
>real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
>produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
>thought that it matters.
You ratfucking little pusswad,
Tell me,
what the fuck do you look like?
I've a good mind to fly to Seattle,
find your ass and smack the taste from your mouth, boy.
Talk shit like this in real life,
I DARE you,
I know there are some net.goths in Seattle,
and I also know that they
would grind your head into the asphalt
until you HAVE NO FACE LEFT
if they heard you spout shit like this in public.
What a biiiig man you are,
There are people on this board
<myself easily included>
Who have disregarded more about what "Goth"
is really about than you will ever know.
You shoot smack?
Shoot some more,
Shoot some clorox you little bastard,
It could only help.
You're less than nothing,
do you realize that?
You've just throw down everything that you are,
probably everything that you ever will be
to some of the gothest fuckers who have
ever walked the face of the earth,
and you know what?
YOU LOSE.
You fucked up.
"Goth is all about makeup and clothes"
Blow me you hippie piece of shit,
If I had a -nickle-
for every little pissant who came on this
board claiming that they were the SHIT
because they just got some new PVC pants
and a nine-inch-nails tshirt,
I'D THROW THEM ALL AT YOU.
Do you have any idea what I'm saying to you?
I'm saying that you're less than
the alternafuck poser clueless nitwits.
-Less- than that.
And you know what?
I'M RIGHT.
You wanna know why?
BECAUSE I SAY SO.
Why is this?
BECAUSE I'M BETTER THAN YOU.
How can I tell?
READ THAT POST OF YOURS AGAIN, SHITHEAD.
Fucking moron,
Fucking -=MORON=-
I ought to Deathlist you for this,
You've got nothing to offer,
but I don't think that I will.
Honestly,
I don't think that you're a troll,
<if you are, you've done your homework, nice job>
you're just a sad little kid looking
for some meaning in his life.
But,
for some reason,
you have attempted to belittle US.
Bad move.
Here's something for you to think on,
This is a board of supposedly 50,000 readers.
That's 50,000.
That's right,
that number is exactly
49,998 more than the number of functioning
braincells in your head at this very moment.
That's quite possibly 50,000 people
who will read every word that you type.
Ever heard of stagefright?
Well,
this is an audience of 50,000 people, son.
Do you have any idea the kind of balls it
takes to address an audience of 50,000?
From this,
we can assume that most of the regulars here,
<myself most certainly included>
are in possesion of some serious ego.
You know what this means?
This means that you're an insignificant little gnat.
To me, however,
you've been something real special.
You were next.
Now run along and choke on something.
I feel. . .refreshed!
--TSM
Skate-Gundy
Actually, S Nelson might be a "She"
if it's the same person who posted on the
Little Poseur Girls in PVC thread
(or maybe it's a false call)
Skate-Gundy
hard...@speakeasy.org (Hardrock and Arethusa) writes:
>Speaking from experience, as a DJ and artist and professional, i and most
>i know welcome the chance to interact with peers. Since your peers are
>fellow pud-pulling net-trolls, i can understand your reluctance to hold a
>convention.
Ooo! That was great. *clap* *clap*
lXs
who now thinks S Nelson is a troll because of his preoccupation
with strippers and hopes the other S Nelson who lives in Seattle
will not get too maligned.
JS
I'd like to enter this little "discussion". While everybody is pissing and
moaning about how unfair and cruel sanelson is, nobody seems to be
addressing the real problem.
The real problem is that fanboy vampire sci-fi geeks are infesting most of
the club scene in Seattle, and possibly elsewhere. I can confirm
everything sanelson says about the Catwalk - it's all too painfully
accurate.
It's possible that physical shape and weight are factors beyond control.
But is it asking too much to suggest that these people either leave their
Magic decks and their role-playing books at home or decide to attend
"Dragoncon" as opposed to cluttering up club venues where adults
congregate? Is it asking too much that Society For Creative Anacronism
dimbulbs take their fake-medieval costumes to their own interminable
functions, where they are appreciated?
Comics and role-playing fanboys are free to go to nightclubs, just like
anyone else. It's a free country. Is it oppressive to ask them to behave
like adults when they get there and leave their toys at home, and try, for
once, to dress appropriately?
JS
Thomas Parkin
I think that for all the bile, S Nelson has got some genuine gripes. I
began going to the Catwalk when there would only be fifty people there. Sometime
last summer it became a sort of crowded peep show. The numbers swelled to five
and six hundred- which was nice-, but at times I remember wondering, what the
hell all these people are doing standing around staring. (I admit I stand
around and stare too, but in a healthy lurking way- heh-, not in a dumbfounded
gawking way) The problem however is not net.goths, or goths at all- it is the
people who come just to get a look at some wierdos, or a woman dancing in her
nightgown. Such people really haven't got any buisness at that club. They ought
to go to the Lusty Lady, which is there, 24 hours a day, catering to compulsive
voyeurs.
I don't personally take anyone to task for particpating in a goth scene
who feels genuinely attracted to it. But in it's pure form it is a fringe
subculture- and while I don't see drugs, or even fasion as stone-clad
requirements (I've been clean myself for several years, I do no drugs and I
bathe now), it is no place for suburban normalcy- And there is such a thing as
authenticity- as much as my tendancy is to argue on the other side- you cannot
be mr. happy hair cut, with a Cabo San Lucas T-shirt and a Nike baseball cap and
think that you'll be fully accepted. I wore white tennis shoes the first time I
went to a Goth night- It is a mistake that I never made again--- If you become a
Jehovahs Witness, you get a haircut, yes? And if you're sleeping with the
pastors daughter, then the congregation has grounds for calling you a
hypocrite.---- Similarly, if you spend your whole week living a lawnmower life
in Edmonds, then you ought to be doing kareoke at Mud Hen's Bar and Grill on
Saturday night. And if you if you think the perfect life includes anything in
Bellvue, then there is a place called Casa-U-Betcha where you'll find any
number of equally vacant people to mate with. I well remember seeing the things
at the Catwalk that has got S Nelson all stirred up--
Now for some net. goth style whining-- I'm so homesick for Seattle that
I could dissolve. I think of her like a lover, and wake in the middle of the
night thinking her name over and over- Seattle, Seattle- and I get no sleep.
Just seeing the Catwalk mentioned here :( This is no knock on other cities, just
a personal preferance. Central California is TOO DAMN HOT, and not in the Cole
Porter way-- I just want to GO HOME-- sulks and stomping of feet like a
toddler-- And if anyone else is going to the Catwalk Saturday- Ask Anastasia,
the woman reading Tarot by the door, if she will marry me, or at least write me
a letter--
Thom
oddlystrange
is it a troll or is it someone who thinks that bragging about the fact
that they came from the same city that spawned nirvana is cool is just
too tempting.
<reaching is desk pulls out blowtorch>
S Nelson (sane...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
which already isn't saying much...
: The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
: opened.
well then stop looking in the mirrors!!!
Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
: the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
: to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
ok
: I have succeeded.
in making a total ass out of myself, not to mention having sex with smurfs...
(ok I just wanted that kebob again... although I know sexbat isn't going
to let me qualify anymore)
: The problem is that net.goths all suck.
as we've said before there's NO problem with sucking things. Perhaps if
you did it a little more often you'd feel a lot better about life.
: You're whiny little nerds.
I am not little... I could knock you over with a sneeze I bet.
: I've seen more posts complaining about how "other goths
: look down on me" or "why can't I be a goth even though I'm fat, 35, and
: got into it last year."
quit talking about yourself...
: The fact that there was a string debating
: whether or not washing your clothes was necessary should tell you
: something about why you are not welcome in polite or fashionable
: society.
obviously you misplaced your sense of humor. Must have left it at the club.
: That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
ummm. ok.
: An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
: time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth.
pleese... I seen shit that was more gothic-looking than you.
I'm reminded of an anecdote
: from Captain Sensible about the early punk rock days in London. He and
: some of his friends were at a club, and Siouxsie Sioux came up to them
: and sneeringly said that they weren't real punks. She had on some
: outfit from Sex or someplace that must have cost a couple of hundred
: dollars. She was probably wrong that they weren't real punks, but they
: certainly wouldn't have been real goths. Siouxsie, on the other hand,
: definitely was, and her attitude is characteristic of the attitude that
: real goths have always had. To see no difference or -- worse yet -- to
: think that there should be no difference between an exquisite black
: velvet dress and a T-shirt and jeans is like feeling the same about the
: Sisters of Mercy and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Oh goodness I guess I've seen that you've read up on your gothic
literature. Oh my. Can you tell us everything about every band that ever
existed... i bet you were right there when Ian killed himself (and it
would prolly explain why he did it in the first place)
: Many posts have complained about being judged by other goths when they
: go to nightclubs. It is sad but not surprising that their authors
: aren't in the habit of being judged, or perhaps they avoid such
: situations as much as possible. The problem with this is in deciding to
: be goths in the first place, they are already judging mainstream society
: -- represented by sports, parents, school, Samurais, Dockers, etc. -- to
: be unacceptable, aesthetically unacceptable, to be specific. That is
: the fatal first step, though. Once you step into a world that's
: supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
: judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
: parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
: nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
requisit mention of moving out of the suburbs!!!! oh yeah you rock.
: Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
: no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
: hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
: you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
: try.
you're a dork aren't you?? did some girl shoot you down at the club and
this is why you have to come here to write this. To find some kind of
excuse for why she thought you looked like and idiot.
Please I've prollyhad more sex in the last week than you've ever seen
(and damnit good sex too!)
I don't even have to try to have sex. I get it when I need it.
I think if you have to try so hard to get laid *you* dear are the one
with the problem.
: Become witty, and this does not mean memorizing Monty Python routines.
damn!
: Become interesting, and not by being Fan Guest of Honor. Above all,
: don't think that your depression or failure is interesting. These can
: be fascinating in art, but only if it's really good. The odds that your
: spiral-bound batch of first-draft poetry is really good are slim.
but I'm a perkygoff?? Am I disqualified from this rant now???
: Why don't you spend the time you spent figuring out your gaming
: character's equipment last week figuring out what attractive outfit you
: will wear to go out this week?
a) don;t do RPG
b) I'll look good in what-ever I decide to don -- therefore I don't have
to think about it.
If that's possible. Some people are not
: attractive, and no amount of in-group paraphernalia can make them so.
: You can wear ankhs and Eyes of Horus till you jingle, but if you are a
Well you are releaving much... you know the dance don't you. People
probably look at you and yawn a lot dont they.
You prolly look like you try too hard... I'd bet my cat on this.
: fat tub of lard, one, keep yourself decently covered; and two, don't
: expect to get any, and please don't try. Do everyone a favor and lose
: some weight. This substitution of totems for good aesthetic choices has
: dealt a near-death blow to the S/M community, at least in Seattle, where
: the perverts are ugly and not afraid to flaunt it.
still not getting any are you???
: Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
: you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
: heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
: towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
: grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
: You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
you're bitter about being in the remedial classes aren't you?
anyhow... I just drink. It's a lot more fun for me to watch people like
you makes asses out of themselves.
then again on a few I'll make an ass out myself, but really I don't give
a fuck what you think or what anyone else thinks...
now there's a pretty fucking gothic attitute for you.
(ahahaha I'm cool damnit look at me is what you scream with your textbook
gothic attitude... it's old, although it reveals your newness to the
scene. Had you been there in the 80s you would have known that this is
all a joke and we laugh at fucks like you who start taking it all too
seriously)
: Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
: drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
: burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
: distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
: cynical.
I don't need 'em... moving out of your parents hosue and living on your
own for a while will have the same effect.
well one day you might know all about it.
and thank you but the drugs don't keep you thin... unless your drug of
choice is Malox.
: Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
: music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
: They're cool and work at it.
if you have to work at it you're a wank. If it doens't come effortlessly
you're wasting your efforts on the wrong scene.
You need to channel those efforts into something more productive -- like
suicide.
Net.goths are little more than fans of
: real goths.
yes we do tend to admire one another a lot.
They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
: produced by the real goths.
ummm.... like are you in a band??? because if you're not you ain't
producing anything but space on *my* dancefloor.
They're not cool and take offense at the
: thought that it matters.
one day you'll outgrow it... you see when you finally are cool is when it
doesn't matter.... you haven't quite gotten there yet.
nor will you prolly. In about two months you'll burn out on this and head
on over the Courtney Love's house and tell her that drugs are the way to
go since it just brings out that whole angsty-ness needed for the grunge
scene to revive itself back to it's former glory.
: For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you.
I don't want you... don't need you. Now run home and just quit going
clubbing. You'll make everyone happy that way.
: For those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
: hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
: will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
: people around you.
yeah fuck off
twit.
oddlystrange
(who realizes she didn't get a perfect 10 on this one, but heck she
was laughing to hard at this lunacy to begin with than really actually
bother)
--
oddlystrange -- the perkygoff fairy godmother
-----------------(who will make a purtier sig later)----------------------
perkygoff east coast branch office now located at:
http://www.obscure.org/~perky
Thomas Parkin
Sande wrote:
>
> From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>
> Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
> Fifth Year
> Pharmacy
> 226-5705
> sne...@u.washington.edu
>
> lXs
What the hell is this- Unmasking the witch- You ought to be
publicly flogged for this-- She, it turns out, had a legitimate way of
looking at her situation- Underneath all the vitriol and ill-chosen
phrases she was making some legitamte points--
Look, I'm fairly new here, but I know a mob lynching when I see
one-
You don't care at all about understanding- You are like about a
bunch of little chickens, hopping on the bleeding one- Maybe what she
said hit just a little too close to home, hmmm? Tom
More-- There is an esoteric quality to a club scene- That
doesn't mean that it is closed, but there is a personal quality that can
be destroyed if it easily admits people who don't belong- Yes! there are
people who don't belong- My definition of who should participate in goth
is broad (look at other places I've posted), and I think that a newcomer
should not be rejected, but given time- I'm glad I was given time- But
there is another side- The club IS like a sanctuary; in Seattle the
Catwalk became the main temple-- How would it be for a group of deeply
believing monks if their monastary suddenly became populated by large
groups of monks whose belief was insencere- Surely you can understand
what this would mean for the true monks- Surely you can hear that
frustration in S Nelson--- I saw this hapenning at the Catwalk, as at
least two other posters have, and I haven't been there since December-
If it is true that people are playing magic there, sweet Jesus, FUCKING
GO HOME- The temple is a place to commune with and around like minded
people, and if other cities can't hear the legitimate warning in SNelson
then I fear for you--- I went to the Catwalk because it was a place
where the world of frat boys, and what someone else here has called the
shiny-happy lie didn't intrude- You understand this a Sanctuary, if that
has been lost in even a small way, surely there are others here who
would understand the frustration of an SNelson- Or maybe you are all a
bunch of weak-minded geeks and gamers going to college on daddies
money-- Or maybe you just can't see past the point where you are
offended, which is a good sign of weak-mindedness
S Nelson
I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
your fiction world.
First off, I'd like to address the slander leveled against me
by someone claiming that I too was a net.goth by virtue of my
posting here. By that logic, I'm straight because I've done a
man. Like I said in my original article, I thought I'd take a
look at alt.goth to see what all these fuckups thought they
were doing.
For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
is apparently "There is always someone who knows more
than you." I'm not claiming to know more than anybody. I do
know that repulsive dorks are ruining Seattle clubs, littering
the tables with their Vampire role-playing handbooks and
calling each other (and me) "m'lady". I don't care if one of
you could write the Encyclopaedia Gothica; it won't help you
if you do any of those things.
Then there's this question of "crass generalizations". I'll
admit that I didn't end each of my remarks with "this doesn't
apply to those of you who are cool", even though I know that
you can't all be as pathetic as some of you clearly are. I
hoped that by being directly addressed, you'd be more likely
to look at yourself, since you wouldn't have the opportunity
to assume I was talking about somebody else. This is what
happens when you find a "non-judgmental" atmosphere in which
you can "be yourself". It becomes too easy to stagnate.
Here's a gem. According to Glen (a.k.a. Super Dimension
Fortress Macross) "If you ever tried to pull that in Detroit,
the whole club would kick your ass... and keep kicking it
all the way back to Grunge Town..."
Pull what? I'm just addressing the dogs where they lay, on
the net. What worthless Detroit club would rise en masse to
defend the self-esteem of your precious mouthbreathers in
Sandman T-shirts?
Glen goes on to say that "If [I'm] Gothic, [he'll] take
net.gothic any day of the week." Exactly my point.
Now let's hear from Skate Gundy, or lXs for short: "I suggest
you either 1) Lurk until you know what you are talking about
and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions."
I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
out at all. And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
You're all right here. I suppose if I wanted to see you I
might go, but for reasons which should be all too clear, I don't.
lXs continues: "You actually think that in your little corner
of the world, that's where all the goths exist? Don't be so
vain. There are people who've been into goth longer than you
and there will be people who find you to be a poseur, even in
Seattle. Convergence I showed everyone to be the genuine article
and I find it doubtful that any poseur or Troll would trek a
couple of days and spend $ and time on meeting net.goths they
had met through alt.gothic."
Everyone was the genuine article, huh? Did they all win a
participation ribbon too? You praise their efforts spent
going to a convention. This would seem to establish their
bona fides as con dweebs, but hardly as goths, and certainly
not as nightclubbers.
lXs again: "If I were to follow your example, equating people
I did not know to be gamers and con-goers, I would find you a
teenybopper who claims to be goth for so long, but was in baggy
clothes just a year ago..."
I'm not equating every reader of alt.gothic with the pathetic
Caramello scum; I'm equating the convention refugees with
many of the failures who post here. I'm offering some advice
which is desperately needed locally. I didn't post here to
impress you, and the thought that someone might laugh at me
is not enough to keep me from laughing at them. But I'm
laughing through tears.
Many people post here bitching about how they go out to clubs
and are treated with disdain. I'm giving them better advice
than "just feel good about yourself, it doesn't matter what
other people think." If it didn't matter what other people
thought, they wouldn't have been upset enough to post. Many
of these people are crippled by their nerdy social background,
but they aren't able to perceive that. I'm telling them why
people look down on them, not encouraging them to cut
themselves off and be content with conventions and virtual
chat rooms where they won't have to be seen and all the
friends that PBS can provide.
As for net.goth DJ's, industry types, club owners -- no
mention of strippers, I see -- if they produce something
worthwhile, good for them. Even if they do, though, that
won't excuse them if they decide to look and act like fuckups
when they go out. Speaking from experience, I've known very
few industry people who would go to a "meet" of any sort
in a million years. Ditto DJ's. As for zines, they are at
least as likely to be crap as any other "literary
environment," whatever that is.
Sorry about your little friend, lXs. Nothing succeeds like
success and nothing fails like failure.
Karen, I won't respond to your post in detail as it
reproduces what's already been said, but you really had
your head in the therapeutic clouds Saturday if you didn't
see how many vile people were there, front room and back.
I don't know most of the net.goths you mentioned, but
DJ Azrael is a lying, no-talent, mumbling idiot who tells
girls he's autistic to excuse his being such an asshole.
He is the single worst DJ I've ever been subjected to,
and he's killed more venues than Typhoid Mary.
You're right. I haven't read the "Goth Code."
By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
"grunge town" is the center of the goth world, as some
have accused. I'm just pointing out something that sucks,
something you guys may be able to do something about, and
something which might be happening elsewhere.
Bradley W Zimmerman
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 11-Jun-96 Re: I was fucked by a
handful of pipecleaners and it was the best piece of ass my pathetic
orifice has seen since '78!.. by Semen Recepticle Nel...@u.washington.ed
> By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
> specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
> and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
> "grunge town" is the center of the goth world, as some
> have accused. I'm just pointing out something that sucks,
> something you guys may be able to do something about, and
> something which might be happening elsewhere.
oh my god,
you weren't a troll!
holy hell....you actually BELIEVE the pathetic frop you're dishing out!
i....i need a DRINK before i go any further.....
you insult us, then you say that
> I'm just pointing out something that sucks,
> something you guys may be able to do something about
what do you think we're going to do? in your little fantasy world
do you picture us all taking to the air in a big black cloud to
heed your pathetic ond offensive 'call to arms?'
you are one of the biggest hypocrites i've run across. despite your
disdain for technology and the 'net, you use an .edu account to send
a half-baked smooth-brained flame at one of the biggest newsgroups
around, offending a large mass of people whom you've never met and
probably never will meet due to your locale-specific mindset.
you think your 'rules of the gothic subculture' are true?
better yet, do you honestly think that simply because we
take advantage of technology that we are poseurs?
well, "O' Ye Who Masturbates Whilst Looking in the Mirror,"
i've been part of 'the scene' for 7 years now,
i DO NOT play Masquerade,
i DO NOT own fangs,
and i've done enough LSD and pot in my life to LOSE LARGE FUCKING
CHUNKS OF MY MEMORY - THAT is why i quit.
does that qualify me as cool?
that i have fucked myself over and am now paying for it?
i sure hope you're enjoying your morning-afters
but then again,
according to your high-school locker-room theology,
being bedridden and vomiting on yourself is 'gothic'
i also AM in a band
i AM an art major
i AM on the college newspaper staff as a music/concert/club reviewer
and i AM better looking than you...
hell,
i will put money on the fact you would PAY me to look at you...
and while we are on the subject of "paying," you didn't mention to
everyone the fact that Catwalk has an interesting cover charge that
hinges on how you dress - if you don't conform to the dress code you
get charged more, wheras the more pretentious 'in-crowd' gets in for
free...
you are a fashion victim, plain and simple.
there is nothing that separates you from the preps in
high school who would ostracize others for not owning at least
5 Ralph Lauren shirts...
you think Convergence is a Trekkie convention? explain why
the hell Mephisto Waltz, Switchblade Symphony, Sunshine Blind
and Christian Death are playing...
why,
I'll bet you don't even know who those bands are, considering you
are one of the types who only tries to pick-up the other scene-makers
with your pretention, ignoring the music....
the gothic scene would be better off without the likes of you.
you're not trying hard enough with the drugs...
you have to be dead to be goth, am i right?
Face it, S. Nelson,
if you were to suck me off in my studio,
it would be the most creative thing you've taken part in...
Hardrock and Arethusa
Thus saith S Nelson the Unworthy, in the Year of Our Lord 11 Jun 1996 00:02:36 GMT :
>
> I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
> as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
> your fiction world.
>
the results of your last troll to post another one.
> First off, I'd like to address the slander leveled against me
> by someone claiming that I too was a net.goth by virtue of my
> posting here. By that logic, I'm straight because I've done a
Correction. Slander is spoken. This is considered a written medium,
theerfor it would be libel.
> man. Like I said in my original article, I thought I'd take a
> look at alt.goth to see what all these fuckups thought they
> were doing.
>
Sounds like you need to get a life.
> For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
> the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
If you can't be bothered to learn proper nettiquette, it would be nice if
you would feel that you can't be bothered to be a part of it either,since
you are not contributing anything of any substance to it.
> know that repulsive dorks are ruining Seattle clubs, littering
Just like repulsive dorks are ruining Usenet <poke poke>.
> the tables with their Vampire role-playing handbooks and
> calling each other (and me) "m'lady". I don't care if one of
So you consider insulting complete strangers a more legitimate passtime
than RPGs? I guess the jack-off thrills it gives you may be more pleasing
to you than actually attempting to interact with people on a human
level and not take that air of superiority that you obviously have no
legitimate claim to.
> apply to those of you who are cool", even though I know that
> you can't all be as pathetic as some of you clearly are. I
You mean as pathetic as you are.
> hoped that by being directly addressed, you'd be more likely
> to look at yourself, since you wouldn't have the opportunity
> to assume I was talking about somebody else. This is what
Except that we already look at ourselves and know who we are. You post in
order that we look at you, and give you the gratification you obviously
can't get in real life through more human means.
> happens when you find a "non-judgmental" atmosphere in which
> you can "be yourself". It becomes too easy to stagnate.
No, stagnation is brought by conformity. A non-judgemental atmosphere
encourages people to explore their true selves and be the individuals
they were created to be. Judgemental atmospheres demand conformity to a
standard; usually that of the Lowest Common Denominator, as you so amply
demonstrate.
>
> Now let's hear from Skate Gundy, or lXs for short: "I suggest
> you either 1) Lurk until you know what you are talking about
> and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
> 2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions."
>
> I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
> just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
> out at all.
What business is it of yours what people look like, and by whose standard
do you judge "nice". Think rather highly of yourself don't you. No more
than any narcissistic megalomaniac i suppose.
And why would you care what we look like since, as you say:
And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
> You're all right here. I suppose if I wanted to see you I
> might go, but for reasons which should be all too clear, I don't.
>
The reason which is "all too clear" is that you are a pathetic would-be
demagogue who was probably turned down by every high-school bimbo you hit
on.
> I'm not equating every reader of alt.gothic with the pathetic
> Caramello scum; I'm equating the convention refugees with
> many of the failures who post here.
And what criteria enable you to label those here, whom you have never met
and know nothing about, as "failures"? Projection, methinks.
I'm offering some advice
> which is desperately needed locally.
It is neither needed, nor wanted.
I didn't post here to
> impress you, and the thought that someone might laugh at me
> is not enough to keep me from laughing at them. But I'm
> laughing through tears.
Whassa matter? Pull your pud too hard?
> of these people are crippled by their nerdy social background,
> but they aren't able to perceive that.
Maybe that is because as computer programmers, system administrators,
business owners, etc. they will earn more doing what they do than you will
as a spotty-faced burger-flipper.
Maybe that is because as visual artists, musicians, etc they do more to
improve the quality of life for everyone than some miserable dork who gets
his rocks off by trolling people far above him intellectually and
socially.
I'm telling them why
> people look down on them,
No, you are telling us why you don't like us. It is the same disdain
mixed with jealosy a eunuch has for a weaponed man.
not encouraging them to cut
> themselves off and be content with conventions and virtual
> chat rooms where they won't have to be seen and all the
> friends that PBS can provide.
Hrm, sounds like someone we all knw.
>
> As for net.goth DJ's, industry types, club owners -- no
> mention of strippers, I see -- if they produce something
> worthwhile, good for them. Even if they do, though, that
> won't excuse them if they decide to look and act like fuckups
> when they go out.
Neither does it excuse you from acting like a fuckup on Usenet.
Speaking from experience, I've known very
> few industry people who would go to a "meet" of any sort
> in a million years. Ditto DJ's.
Speaking from experience, as a DJ and artist and professional, i and most
i know welcome the chance to interact with peers. Since your peers are
fellow pud-pulling net-trolls, i can understand your reluctance to hold a
convention.
> Sorry about your little friend, lXs. Nothing succeeds like
> success and nothing fails like failure.
And few things are more annoying than a cliche spouting moron.
> He is the single worst DJ I've ever been subjected to,
> and he's killed more venues than Typhoid Mary.
>
And this is a particularly fucked up metaphor. "Typhoid Mary" helped to
spread an infectious disease which resulted in the death of many *people*,
not venues. And i would be interestedin a list of venues which you
believe were "killed" by the actions of DJ Azrael.
> By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
> specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
> and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
By the way, it should be remembered that some of us *are* from Seattle,
and couldn't give a flying rat's left testicle what you think about it or
us. Especially since you are coming from an .edu address; and a U of W
.edu at that.
Hardrock
--
Hardrock Llewynyth, DNRC and Arethusa Nightshade
hard...@speakeasy.org http://kendaco.telebyte.com/dharland
"There is no Cabal."
Cabal Special Agent #007 Full membership application pending
Feyd-Rautha
In <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu> sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
>the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
>to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
>I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
>little nerds. I've seen more posts complaining about how "other goths
>look down on me" or "why can't I be a goth even though I'm fat, 35, and
>got into it last year."
"more posts" not followed with a comparitive?
your grammar sucks, and your vocabulary is obviously
extracted directly from a thesaurus ("uhh, what's another
word for ugly? 're-pell-ent'? guess that'll work")
>The fact that there was a string debating
>whether or not washing your clothes was necessary should tell you
>something about why you are not welcome in polite or fashionable
>society.
please produce said thread, and show that it was propagated
by regular posters to alt.gothic who are not trolls, flamers,
or anonymous goth-bashers who like to do the equivalent of
a drive-by shooting
>That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
>An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
>time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth.
>Many posts have complained about being judged by other goths when they
>go to nightclubs. It is sad but not surprising that their authors
>aren't in the habit of being judged, or perhaps they avoid such
>situations as much as possible.
as above, prove that these posts were made by regulars, and not
transient posters...most of us regulars (going on 4 years for me
in particular) were goth before we discovered the net (at college
usually), and have certainly been clubbing at least that long
(if of age to go clubbing)
>The problem with this is in deciding to
>be goths in the first place,
One doesn't "decide" to be goth, one realizes one already *is*
>Once you step into a world that's
>supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
>judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
>parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
>nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
we accept being judged, but as a particular aspect of being
a net.goth, we generally don't *care* unless the person is
particularly attractive and we desire them ;)
>Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
>no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
>hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
>you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
>try.
I don't go to goth clubs to get people to like me, talk to me, or
fuck me (I can get *that* just about anywhere) I go to dance and
enjoy myself
>Become witty, and this does not mean memorizing Monty Python routines.
>Become interesting, and not by being Fan Guest of Honor.
*sigh* One doesn't "become" witty or interesting, one either *is*
or one isn't...any attempt to seem so when you are lacking in these
fields is usually doomed to failure; fortunately, there is something
interesting about almost everyone, you just have to relax and let
people discover it on their own
>Above all,
>don't think that your depression or failure is interesting. These can
>be fascinating in art, but only if it's really good. The odds that your
>spiral-bound batch of first-draft poetry is really good are slim.
[mindless drivel about looks and fashion deleted]
>Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
>you can't be a goth without them.
au contraire, mes ami, you can indeed...just because Rozz Williams
is a complete junkie, doesn't mean we all have to be
>The best goths I've known have been
>heavy users.
really? the best goths I've known are *ex* users,
the ones who weren't sucked into that idiocy known
as AA or NA (don't give up responsibility for your
addictions, learn to control the disease...me, I'm
an alcoholic, but I just don't drink when I feel that
I've been getting into a bad pattern of drinking
habits
>Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
>towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th
>grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
>You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
you fall for the (what, 7th? 8th?) time into the assumption
that net.goths are geeks who decided they were goths, rather
than goths who know how to use the net...untrue
>Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
>drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
>burn off the emotional baby fat.
Drugs build character? here, shootup this speedball for me...
maybe that'll help you gain an ego which isn't nearly so fragile
>Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
>distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
>cynical.
been there, done that, got enough heart problems
from inhaling the profits to know it's a BAD IDEA
and cynical? I was ALWAYS cynical...why, I'm even a
member of alt.gothic.CR (CR meaning 'cynical romantic')
>Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
>music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
>They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
>real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
>produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
>thought that it matters.
*paging Joel Metz, paging Joel Metz...please bring Gina and Molly
to the terminal...* (Gina and Molly being two of the DJ's for San
Francisco's several goth clubs...and net.goths too...amazing,
isn't it?)
>For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
>those of you who aren't, quit complaining.
Strange, but *you* seem to be the one complaining...
-Feyd
.-----. "...what the eye don't see won't break the heart..." .-----.
/._{O}_.\ http://www.redshift.com/~feyd/index.html /._{O}_.\
{./ \.}GoHu+ TM(AnNr) B0/35Bk]2^1 cBk(DBR)w++ PR(LNi) V-s M++p1{./ \.}
\| |/ ZGoClGnInSkJa-- C++p1u a25(20) n!O b+: H186 g+A mEa5+@2# \| |/
` 'w+! r+SP D++~! h+TAn s9 k++BdDsW Rn SsWy N992WPn LusCA-- HzS` '
S Nelson
Aye and begorrah! Kevin O'Gorman, friend o' the little people, both
on the Net and back home in Eire, has sworn a solemn oath to maim me
if he gets the chance. Well, I'll wager 32 fine Idaho russets
against a like number of potatoes from the Emerald Isle that he'll
come off the worse for it! Come on, me boy, lacquer up your
shillelagh and I'll meet you at the end of the rainbow.
But first, to the rest of your post, which certainly was the best of
the bunch:
If you don't like the anecdote, tell Captain Sensible about it. It
was in an interview from his Damned days.
You say that I'm ""in it" for sex." In what? Certainly not
alt.gothic. I may go to a nightclub looking for sex, but why else
would I go? To express myself? The music should be too loud to
convey anything deep, personal, or meaningful. Get their number
and then see if they're still interesting. But first make sure that
they look good. This is the advantage the nightclub has over the Net.
The threat that having a sex drive will lead to saying "You want fries
with that?" (hardly something you could object to, Kevin) seems
remote. And what do you mean when you say "you can't keep it up
anymore"? Is the maintenance of a goth lifestyle draining in some
fashion? Is it particularly dangerous?
The fetish scene is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awaken.
Believe me, I know more than I could ever want to about at least
one fetish "community." That crowd was one of the major
vectors for nerds contaminating the goth scene. Anything I've said
about goths goes double for them. Lest you forget, I'm only
speaking about the Seattle scene, though I'm now receiving mail
about it happening elsewhere.
I know plenty of users and many serious addicts. It's true, a lot
of them are pretty fucked up, but they're preferable to the
Oreo-gobbling troglodytes flooding the dance floor. I tell people
how they should and shouldn't be because I want them to change,
dumbfuck. At least I have the decency to tell them that directly
rather than threatening them.
Keep tossing that head, Kevin. Maybe it will knock some sense into
it. But I doubt it will make me or any other girl (even a boring
raver) want you.
This is the last I'm going to write, since alt.gothic is completely
peripheral. It is a teenager trying to masturbate by moonlight
and hence going blind twice as fast.
I will leave you to your privacy.
S Nelson
Legal Department
In article <4pid2s$q...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
sane...@u.washington.edu "S Nelson" writes:
>First off, I'd like to address the slander leveled against me
>by someone claiming that I too was a net.goth by virtue of my
>posting here.
You are - deal with it, (or possibly go away?)
>I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
>just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
>out at all.
Speaking for myself, and my friends - we are all more beautiful than
you. How do I know that? I don't - but then neither do you!
>going to a convention. This would seem to establish their
>bona fides as con dweebs, but hardly as goths, and certainly
>not as nightclubbers.
Some of us were going to nightclubs while you were playing with
dollies and listening to boy bands, darling.
>when they go out. Speaking from experience, I've known very
>few industry people who would go to a "meet" of any sort
>in a million years.
I used to have an invisible friend too, but she died....
>By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
>specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
>and most of my detractors haven't.
Ah, a generalisation, perfect....
Message from the legal department of:
[ ] B.A.T
[ ] Battlebridge Press
[ ] Sexbat World Enterprises
[ ] Take a Bite
[X] net.goth
]Herinafter known as BAT]
Dear Ms.Nelson
[Herinafter Known as SUSAN]
Thus you are served forthwith and herinafter with a writ of
[ ] Censure
[ ] Summons
[ ] Cease and Desist
[X] Take a pill
in that YOU did knowingly and in contravention of all international
and moral laws
[ ] Infringe a TradeMark
[ ] Post Unsolicited Advertising Material
[ ] Post Unsolicited Opinion
[ ] Reveal yourself to be a Goblin in the service of Satan
[X] Make a crass generalisation and then defend it
[ ] Breach copyright
[ ] Breach intellectual property rights
[X] Post under the influence of narcotics,alcohol, or hormones
[X] Other
Misuse of legal terminology in a public forum
(If you wish to be slandered, please let me know and I will talk to
the DJ's at your college radio station and arrange to send them a
DAT)
We will be seeking
[ ] The death penalty (where applicable)
[ ] ex-gratia payment of at least (UK Pounds Sterling)
[ ] a public apology
[X] your head on a stick
[ ] The Holy Grail
[ ] all of the above
You will be expected to appear at Clerkenwell Magistrates Court on 13/6/96
at 1:03am. Failure to appear will constitute an admission of guilt (tort
Crown vs Cromwell 1661).
Yours &c.
Ron (The Hammer)
--
Representative - Legal Department, Sexbat World Enterprises
Kevin O' Gorman
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>Aye and begorrah! Kevin O'Gorman, friend o' the little people, both
>on the Net and back home in Eire, has sworn a solemn oath to maim me
>if he gets the chance. Well, I'll wager 32 fine Idaho russets
>against a like number of potatoes from the Emerald Isle that he'll
>come off the worse for it! Come on, me boy, lacquer up your
>shillelagh and I'll meet you at the end of the rainbow.
Kewl - you have no idea how much this has cheered me up...
Actually, having found out you're female, I'm forced by personal
homour to just taking the piss. Rest assured that Seattle WA is
on the list, though, and if I ever pay a visit, I'll make sure
to have you pointed out...
>You say that I'm ""in it" for sex." In what? Certainly not
>alt.gothic. I may go to a nightclub looking for sex, but why else
>would I go?
Condemned by your own lips! (fnar fnar)
>The threat that having a sex drive will lead to saying "You want fries
>with that?" (hardly something you could object to, Kevin)
I personally would object to having to say it.
>seems
>remote. And what do you mean when you say "you can't keep it up
>anymore"? Is the maintenance of a goth lifestyle draining in some
>fashion? Is it particularly dangerous?
Well duh, of course it is. It's ridiculously dangerous for REAL goths
who have to endure the slings and arrows of outraged fundies etc..
If, however, you're just dreesing up to go and score with some similarly vapid
uninterestingly tattoed richkid, you have the torture of utter boredom awaiting
you.
>I know plenty of users and many serious addicts. It's true, a lot
>of them are pretty fucked up, but they're preferable to the
>Oreo-gobbling troglodytes flooding the dance floor.
Idiot. You must be so fucking blind, to imagine that junkies make good
props for your chosen lifestyle.
>I tell people
>how they should and shouldn't be because I want them to change,
>dumbfuck. At least I have the decency to tell them that directly
>rather than threatening them.
I'd never tell you to change. However, I'd ask you with various degrees
of politeness to keep your stupid comments about other people's bodies etc.
to yourself. Personally I couldn't give a fuck if you never changed, once
I don't have to listen to you.
>Keep tossing that head, Kevin. Maybe it will knock some sense into
>it. But I doubt it will make me or any other girl (even a boring
>raver) want you.
If only it were true. Oh well, my biorythms are slowing, so the effect should
bottom out again soon...
>This is the last I'm going to write, since alt.gothic is completely
>peripheral. It is a teenager trying to masturbate by moonlight
>and hence going blind twice as fast.
>I will leave you to your privacy.
You're so kind, bitch. I'll see you 'round...
Super Dimension Fortress Macross
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) wrote:
>I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
>as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
>your fiction world.
Arent you bored yet?
>Here's a gem. According to Glen (a.k.a. Super Dimension
>Fortress Macross) "If you ever tried to pull that in Detroit,
>the whole club would kick your ass... and keep kicking it
>all the way back to Grunge Town..."
>Pull what? I'm just addressing the dogs where they lay, on
>the net. What worthless Detroit club would rise en masse to
>defend the self-esteem of your precious mouthbreathers in
>Sandman T-shirts?
I'll spell it out for you. If you, and your pretentious overinflated
ego, ever set one pointy toed foot in this city, your perfect little
boney ass would be killed. The Bouncers at the club would show you
out, more than likely opening the door with yer pencil perfect face.
clear enough?
>Glen goes on to say that "If [I'm] Gothic, [he'll] take
>net.gothic any day of the week." Exactly my point.
point? besdies the one on yer nose? wasnt aware you had a point to
make here.. my point was : I dont like you, or people like you, so go
away.
for someone who doesnt like usenet, or alt gothic, you sure write a
lot more in two posts than most of us bother to type out in months.
this thread will no longer be glorified by the likes of me.
piss off, wanker.
Jeff Walsh
Good Morning, and welcome to Trollfest.
In yesterday's episode, S Nelson <sane...@u.washington.edu> babbled,
>
>Aye and begorrah! Kevin O'Gorman, friend o' the little people, both
>on the Net and back home in Eire, has sworn a solemn oath to maim me
>if he gets the chance. Well, I'll wager 32 fine Idaho russets
>against a like number of potatoes from the Emerald Isle that he'll
>come off the worse for it! Come on, me boy, lacquer up your
>shillelagh and I'll meet you at the end of the rainbow.
My my what a coherent gentleman. Maybe he isn't a Troll, after all.
Maybe he's in some mental institution somewhere. Poor Lad.
>You say that I'm ""in it" for sex." In what?
In it up to your neck, I'd say. Far too deep for you to handle.
>Certainly not
>alt.gothic.
Well then, go away back to alt.losers from whence you came.
>I may go to a nightclub looking for sex, but why else
>would I go? To express myself?
God no, everybody would be helplessly covered in phlegm.
(Observers, please note the interesting depth to his shallowness)
>The threat that having a sex drive will lead to saying "You want fries
>with that?"
It appears that you have it the other way around. I hope you receive
your sex drive in the post soon. I also wish you every luck in getting
those extra gold stars on your badge.
>The fetish scene is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awaken.
This seconds my theory that you are indeed trussed up somewhere.
Probably a mental hospital.
>Believe me, I know more than I could ever want to about at least
>one fetish "community." That crowd was one of the major
>vectors for nerds contaminating the goth scene. Anything I've said
>about goths goes double for them. Lest you forget, I'm only
>speaking about the Seattle scene, though I'm now receiving mail
>about it happening elsewhere.
>
There are nerds contaminating every scene. For example, I bet that the
people that you hang around with, wish that they didn't have your
illustrious company.
>I know plenty of users and many serious addicts. It's true, a lot
>of them are pretty fucked up, but they're preferable to the
>Oreo-gobbling troglodytes flooding the dance floor. I tell people
>how they should and shouldn't be because I want them to change,
>dumbfuck. At least I have the decency to tell them that directly
>rather than threatening them.
>
Should? Shouldn't?
Maybe people don't want to change. Before most dictators and
meglomaniacs start threatening people, they too tell them how they want
them to change.
You aren't too receptive to these ideas yourself, are you?
>Keep tossing that head, Kevin. Maybe it will knock some sense into
>it. But I doubt it will make me or any other girl (even a boring
>raver) want you.
Have you had a sex change?
>
>This is the last I'm going to write, since alt.gothic is completely
>peripheral. It is a teenager trying to masturbate by moonlight
>and hence going blind twice as fast.
You *are* that teenager.
It appears that you went blind a long time ago.
Why not shed your egocentricity, and consider what other people want,
and other peoples' rights for the first time in your life. Then maybe
you could find some of your own friends.
Stay Happy, now.
:)
** Storm **
Let's play GothCode Bingo 2.5! Eyes Down!
/---------------* St...@ccl-kc.demon.co.uk *---------
/ GoAu6$CS6$Mu8$ZZ9 TMJtIn cCDBR(LBR)w8 PSaScPe M2p4wgD ZGoIpbTeiMe
/ C8o a23- b65 H182 g7! w5 r3 S h4 s10 k5 RN SsWW N0895 LukEN
/-----------------------------------------------------
-bat.
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
[some rather sad trolls]
William C Isenhour <wi...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
[some equally sad macho posturing]
Oh good, can we now put the 2 of them in a corner and watch them fight it out
with sharpened eyeliner pencils ? Please...
I'm not quite sure which posting annoyed me more. Why do people always have
to rise to this sort of bait ?
-bat.
Peter T Caffin
Kevin O' Gorman did cunningly address to the world at large..
: sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
: I could make you want me with a toss of my head and a click of my
: fingers, you little jerk-off.
: But rest assured, you'd never have me. I don't hang out with pathetic,
: short-sighted, fuckheads like you; and I certainly don't condescend to
: sleep with them.
This is the first time I've seen Spidey O'Gorman write a flame.. And
-that- carries significance. He's one of the nicest people I've met
here. A Nice Guy, who is always of positive benefit here.
To S. Nelson: Your narrowminded ignorant ramblings are significant in
that they're more and more prevalent in the goth scene, at least where I
am. This does -not- make them either true nor beneficial nor good.
Were I to see you out at a club, I'd be ignoring your existence and/or
sneering at your lack of social graces. You, it would seem, would be of
negative benefit wherever you go..
--
.-+- [bio][aus.culture.gothic faq][gothcode homepage][perthgoth images] ---.
| [goth][politics][tasteless][etc] @ http://cleo.murdoch.edu.au/~ptcaffin/ |
`-| GothCode 1.0B T3(4,Z) c7w++ P3(2) a H173 s8 k++ t- g+ r--- Srn lAUwa --'
|
/\oo/\
/`'\_
/
The Shechemist
On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, The Shechemist wrote:
Humm..... there are 2 S. Nelson's
Me, sne...@nmsu.edu, shechemist
and
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson)
I just thought I should point that out before I get flamed to a
crisp for something I didn't post.
Shechemist
The Shechemist
On 10 Jun 1996, Skate-Gundy wrote:
> Actually, S Nelson might be a "She"
> if it's the same person who posted on the
> Little Poseur Girls in PVC thread
> (or maybe it's a false call)
I have a feeling this was ment to be an e-mail.
The lovely and talented Shechemist
S Nelson
"Give me your blood, your teeth, your high school pictures
Your words can't begin to satisfy my needs
Give me your hand I'll never give you flowers
Your touch can't begin to satisfy my...
I can't save you from me this time"
-Marilyn Manson and the Spookie Kids
Cindy Kurneck
In article <4pjqqr$nkr$1...@perth.DIALix.oz.au>, sy...@perth.DIALix.oz.au
(Peter T Caffin) wrote:
>
> This is the first time I've seen Spidey O'Gorman write a flame.. And
> -that- carries significance. He's one of the nicest people I've met
> here. A Nice Guy, who is always of positive benefit here.
Really? How very odd. He's been flaming me via email.
It all started when I complimented him on his flame. shrug.
--
Cindy Kurneck
University of Pittsburgh
Central Business Services - PIRRS Project
kurn...@pitt.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~kurneck
'Jherek' W. Swanger
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, JS wrote:
> The real problem is that fanboy vampire sci-fi geeks are infesting most of
> the club scene in Seattle, and possibly elsewhere.
Look on the bright side, it could be jocks, cowboys and bowheads infesting
the club scene. I'll take the geeks any day. They're less likely to pick
a fight. ;)
kirsti
(not jherek)
Kevin O' Gorman
sy...@perth.DIALix.oz.au (Peter T Caffin) writes:
>This is the first time I've seen Spidey O'Gorman write a flame.. And
>-that- carries significance. He's one of the nicest people I've met
>here. A Nice Guy, who is always of positive benefit here.
Bloody 'ell; you should see my email at the moment then - I'm in the curious
position of being attacked by both sanelson and the people she hates...
And me with Field Theory tomorrow.
Does the world have no *respect*?
Feyd-Rautha
In <johnz-10069...@morrison-c30.aa.net> jo...@aa.net (JS) writes:
>I'd like to enter this little "discussion". While everybody is pissing and
>moaning about how unfair and cruel sanelson is, nobody seems to be
>addressing the real problem.
>The real problem is that fanboy vampire sci-fi geeks are infesting most of
>the club scene in Seattle, and possibly elsewhere. I can confirm
>everything sanelson says about the Catwalk - it's all too painfully
>accurate.
And? Show to us that these people learned of the CatWalk
by reading alt.gothic (unlikely, I didn't know about it
myself until recently and I've been reading this group
a long time). I find it more likely that this is a problem
that is confined to your club in Seattle, which has recently
been discovered by people you don't approve of...the usual
thing to do in this case is to start another club and go
there until they find out about that one...etc. etc.
>It's a free country. Is it oppressive to ask them to behave
>like adults when they get there and leave their toys at home, and try, for
>once, to dress appropriately?
What is the difference between their toys and yours?
And *please* define "appropriate goth dress" for us.
>JS
Feyd-Rautha
Lord Boo Raphrat writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 10-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
>CA.. by Count Von Sex...@batt.de
>>In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
>> sane...@u.washington.edu "friendless undergraduate" loses:
>8< respectively snipped >8
>> You do not win a kebab, however you are eligible for a signed
>> photograph of London taken from a plane during an emergency landing,
>> please forward your home address to claim your prize.
>dammit, guys....
>finally someone so infinately stupid comes along who manages to get
>my dander up enough to torch his posterior, and EVERYONE
>gets to him first.... so i'll refrain from any muscle flexing in
>public....
>tho' t'would've been fun.....
>i wanna kebab...
>*pout*
well, look at it this way, he's probably stupid enough
to *respond* to the flames, so we may get another round
of kebab-attempts, correct?
Skarrin Kilgarrin
In article <johnz-10069...@morrison-c30.aa.net>, jo...@aa.net (JS)
wrote:
> I'd like to enter this little "discussion". While everybody is pissing and
> moaning about how unfair and cruel sanelson is, nobody seems to be
> addressing the real problem.
>
> The real problem is that fanboy vampire sci-fi geeks are infesting most of
> the club scene in Seattle, and possibly elsewhere. I can confirm
> everything sanelson says about the Catwalk - it's all too painfully
> accurate.
>
> It's possible that physical shape and weight are factors beyond control.
> But is it asking too much to suggest that these people either leave their
> Magic decks and their role-playing books at home or decide to attend
> "Dragoncon" as opposed to cluttering up club venues where adults
> congregate? Is it asking too much that Society For Creative Anacronism
> dimbulbs take their fake-medieval costumes to their own interminable
> functions, where they are appreciated?
>
> Comics and role-playing fanboys are free to go to nightclubs, just like
> anyone else. It's a free country. Is it oppressive to ask them to behave
> like adults when they get there and leave their toys at home, and try, for
> once, to dress appropriately?
>
> JS
And what, praytell, ARE the "toys" that they must leave at home...and the
"toys" that are acceptable in the backroom...sorry, WERE accetable...at
the Catwalk? Which "costumes" are appropriate?
The ones you approve of? The ones the majority approves of?
The ones you would rather wear? The ones you can GET AWAY WITH WEARING?
Sigh.
I thought "alternative lifestyles" clubes...like the Catwalk bills itself
to be (check the black protest poster and the "reason" the Liquor Control
Board suspended their license)...liked their clientele to embrace
diversity.
I'm glad I have so many gaming shirts and black pairs of jeans...it must
really, really gall people like you to see ME in a goth club having so
much fun...
(Hm. From freaking mundanes to freaking GOTHS...oh, well.)
Check the .sig. I probably have been gaming since before some people in
this thread were BORN. And if I choose to, I can impersonate "real" goths
seamlessly.
Don't often choose to...it costs more to CLEAN those clothes than to
PURCHASE more jeans and t-shirts...
If the crowd at the Catwalk so disturbs you...go away! Back to your
comfortable little clique of superior gothier-than-thous. Set up your own
club where you don't HAVE to bemoan the fact that SOME gamers >are<
attractive...that some geeks >can< dance...that <gasp!> they might
actually be INTERESTING to be around!
Shallow. Pretentious. Irritating. To steal (flagrantly...Jilli uses it
a lot, so will I...it's amazingly accurate) from TSM...part of the 40%.
Feh.
--
Alexander von Hochtritt ska...@wizards.com
"Cold it was as the tide of death; almost it froze my heart."
-- Gandalf, "The Two Towers"
This is my thought, not WotC's...don't blame them, blame me.
BOWIE SHAWN WILLIAM
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
>the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
>to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
Um, ok, now let's just look at what you just said. First, you
have a problem with a local club that you are a patron of. The said club
has some problems with who is attending the local goth night, at least
in your opinion. So, to find the culprit of the problem you read alt.gothic,
which is a newsgroup with many people from all around the world. Most of
these people have never been to the catwalk, and I would venture many have
never ever heard of it before. So whatever problems the club might be having
seems to be confined to a loacl area, and whatever problems alt.gothic
might be having is completely independent of the Catwalk. The solution to
your problem is not to bitch out the alt.gothic posters, the solution is
to accept once you have a club, in the public sphere, you must accept that
many of the patrons are not going to be freaks!. Deal with it, most of the
rest of us have.
>I have succeeded. The problem is that net.goths all suck. You're whiny
Succeeded at what? making a generalization with no justification
what-so-ever?
>That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
>An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
>time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth. I'm reminded of an anecdote
>from Captain Sensible about the early punk rock days in London. He and
>some of his friends were at a club, and Siouxsie Sioux came up to them
>and sneeringly said that they weren't real punks. She had on some
>outfit from Sex or someplace that must have cost a couple of hundred
>dollars. She was probably wrong that they weren't real punks, but they
>certainly wouldn't have been real goths. Siouxsie, on the other hand,
>definitely was, and her attitude is characteristic of the attitude that
>real goths have always had. To see no difference or -- worse yet -- to
>think that there should be no difference between an exquisite black
>velvet dress and a T-shirt and jeans is like feeling the same about the
>Sisters of Mercy and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Ok, I will admit that here I do have some agreement with you.
However, I think that you need to make a distinction between participating
in the ideology of the goth scene and partipating in the fashion of the
goth scene. And, yes, in many cases they are mutually exclusive. I have
seen some of the most beautifully clad goths in the world who from a
distance I thought must be Gods. Yet, after a quick conversation I soon
found out that they were idiots and didn't have a clue about the gothic
scene or what it was all about. On the other hand, there have been some
people in "a T-shirt and jeans" who knew more about the music and scene,
and underlying ideology than the beauties dressed in all black will
ever know.
I think you need to understand what it is you want. If you want
a trophy girl or boy, then you fashion critique is right on. However,
if you want a scene where both areas are stressed than you have to extend
some tolerance for those who do not feel the need to conform to the
stereotypical look of "goth" all the time.
>situations as much as possible. The problem with this is in deciding to
>be goths in the first place, they are already judging mainstream society
>-- represented by sports, parents, school, Samurais, Dockers, etc. -- to
>be unacceptable, aesthetically unacceptable, to be specific. That is
>the fatal first step, though. Once you step into a world that's
>supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
>judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
>parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
>nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
Judged on the same basis of what? Your claim that to be an
authentic goth is only tied in to a display of style? Come on? I am
not going to re-iterate my point about two distinct aspects of goth, but
maybe you should read over it again.
>Thankfully, the gothic scene is not 8th-grade gifted (yet), and we have
>no obligation to "accept you as you are" or your dorky clothes, bad
>hygiene, fangs, or social ineptitude. "Glamour is a rocky road," and if
>you want people to like you, talk to you, or fuck you, you'll have to
>try.
Well, as far as this paragraph goes, I only have to say that what
you are describing is true of any scene in Ameria, not just goths. Jocks
have to be buff, preps have to be rich, etc, etc, etc... . Every scene
has its elements of style, goth is nothing unique in terms of simply
expressing itself by style. Rather, what sets goth apart for me is its
attempt and success at drawing together an intellectual commonality
among its participating members. (intellectual commonality is seen
often enough in other posts).
<Drug paragraph> -- deleted.
My only response: drugs are a monster idependent of any scene.
And once that monster is let out, it cares not who you are, it will
simply devour you.
<Rest of post deleted>
In closing, I would only urge this original poster to read a little
more of what alt.gothic is about, and what the people in this newsgroup
are all about. To claim "all net.goths suck" is to sound a child who needsd
a whipping, an takers?
Oh well, on to the next,
Shawn.
P.s. to all those young goths who I might have offended I apologize for
generalizing, it happens to all of us. Longevity is not the sole measure
of maturity.
Skate-Gundy
Thomas Parkin <tpa...@fix.net> writes:
>I think that for all the bile, S Nelson has got some genuine gripes. I
Yes. OK. This happens. But like in any other subculture, you figure
the poseurs, gawkers, etc. will eventually lose interest and leave.
In a club that's no longer open where I am, that used to happen and
all the goth people would leave after the hour. The club openly
encouraged it by switching the music to more popular industrial
like NIN after those people arrived.
It was mainly due to the fact that their bar stayed
open longer than anyone else's that those people liked the place.
But I would think that in a big city like Seattle, there are other
clubs to go to if you don't like that particular one...
And, dare I say, there are other things to do besides going to clubs.
lXs
listening to the CURE
Skate-Gundy
spi...@maths.tcd.ie (Kevin O' Gorman) writes:
>sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>>You say that I'm ""in it" for sex." In what? Certainly not
>>alt.gothic. I may go to a nightclub looking for sex, but why else
>>would I go?
>Condemned by your own lips! (fnar fnar)
Ooo, you have condemned yourself, Susan! :)
We encourage you to find another subculture
to find your sexual jollies and fetish-o'-the-night.
Perhaps that's why you attract such people, because
you are just like them.
Verily amused,
lXs
Leonora the KittenLady
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) wrote:
>First off, I'd like to address the slander leveled against me
>by someone claiming that I too was a net.goth by virtue of my
>posting here. By that logic, I'm straight because I've done a
>man. Like I said in my original article, I thought I'd take a
>look at alt.goth to see what all these fuckups thought they
>were doing.
Well Dear, you seem to be a bigger fuckup than any of us.
-Leonora (Mistress of All Evil & Goddess Material :)
|\____/ | *Lilles May Grow Even Through Snow-SwitchbladeSymph
| o"" o| |*Doobie Doobie--**SPLAT!!** Sorry I didn't see the
(: Y : ) |*Penguin there!****GO RANGERS! GO PANTHERS!********
U |*Offical Pig Carrying Goth of the New York Rangers*
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Leo_Mistress_of_All_Evil*
Alex von Hochtritt
> Yes. OK. This happens. But like in any other subculture, you figure
> the poseurs, gawkers, etc. will eventually lose interest and leave.
>
Sigh. IF ONLY.
In Seattle - which isn't a very big city, Thank Something - for a club to
stay open (a club that doesn't specialize in the Fad Of The Week
music/hairstyle/clothing) they have to attract a certain size of
crowd...and there aren't many goths/punks/fetishists...they HAVE to have
the poseurs/gawkers/whatnot, or go out of business.
A decade ago I learned to frighten them away by sheer force of ego. (Ask
Jherek/Kirsti...I've got lots. Sigh.) They usually respond badly to
being shrieked at upon entrance..."Hie thee hence, heathens! Back to
Bellevue, Biff! And take the peroxide blonde bimbo with you!"
> But I would think that in a big city like Seattle, there are other
> clubs to go to if you don't like that particular one...
In Seattle? A town that just let 2 of it's supposedly most-popular live
local music clubs close?
Oh, well.
>
>
> And, dare I say, there are other things to do besides going to clubs.
>
>
Remember, doing other things besides clubbing isn't gothic! (Heaven
forfend we have fun, play games...socialize...shudder.)
>
> lXs
> listening to the CURE
>
Alex
listening to Faure's "Requiem"
Feyd-Rautha
>From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
>Fifth Year
>Pharmacy
^^^^^^^^
>226-5705
>sne...@u.washington.edu
WELL, from what she's said about drugs being necessary,
and her major here, I think we can guess who *won't*
be in that career long after they discover there's been
someone dipping into the supplies, can't we?
Skate-Gundy
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>This is the last I'm going to write, since alt.gothic is completely
>peripheral. It is a teenager trying to masturbate by moonlight
>and hence going blind twice as fast.
>I will leave you to your privacy.
>S Nelson
*laughs*
You've prob. never received so much attention in your life.
For a person who dislikes technology, you seem to be
enjoying its uses quite well.
lXs
who's sure another post from S Nelson will appear in
and out of lurkerhood
Sande
From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
Fifth Year
Pharmacy
226-5705
sne...@u.washington.edu
lXs
Hardrock and Arethusa
Thus saith BOWIE SHAWN WILLIAM the Unworthy, in the Year of Our Lord 11 Jun 96 17:24:01 GMT :
>
> In closing, I would only urge this original poster to read a little
> more of what alt.gothic is about, and what the people in this newsgroup
> are all about. To claim "all net.goths suck" is to sound a child who needsd
> a whipping, an takers?
>
considering the quality and nature of the post, it is my conclusion thta
the poster is some spotty-faced male git who gets off impersonating
females (and not doing a very good job of it i might add); i will decline
this time.
Hardrock
--
Hardrock Llewynyth, DNRC and Arethusa Nightshade
hard...@speakeasy.org http://kendaco.telebyte.com/dharland
Kook Code: V.Fomin+ (Grubor+)*2
Kook Number: 3
Kook Code 2: Boursy+2 V.Fomin+ (John Martin Grubor+9)*2
Kook Number v.2: 21
Karen Kardell
> I'd like to enter this little "discussion". While everybody is pissing and
> moaning about how unfair and cruel sanelson is, nobody seems to be
> addressing the real problem.
I think that perhaps if she had chosen to word her objections in a way
that showed some modicum of thoughtfulness the results may have been
different. If her issue is the Catwalk in Seattle, it should have stuck
to that. Blanket generalizations that "all" net.goth frequenters are the
type she is objecting to shows an extremely high degree of ignorance. She
attacked a whole group of people here she neither knows nor has any idea
what kind of lifestyle they lead. And, in addition, made some extremely
ridiculous uneducated comments about heavy drug use, what "gothic" is
supposed to be and the types of people that frequent the newsgroup. *She*
may be into the gothic lifestyle for fashion, drugs and sex, but a lot of
people find a whole lot more to it than that and telling people this is
what they need to be and be into to be considered "gothic" is a shallow
attitude with little understanding of the motivations and psyches of
people who adopt this lifestyle. Her statements are characteristic of
someone not really too familiar with the scene they are trying to be a
part of. "Poseur" comes to mind and I'm not saying she is, but the focus
on "sex, drugs and rock-n-roll" is so clique and can be attached to any
scene. She demonstrated little understanding of the subtle intricacies
that define a person as gothic. She may have "chosen" to be gothic, but a
lot of people here were probably that way from the day they were born and
only later found a term to describe somewhat what they were about. She
sounds like a groupie a lot more than a goth. A follower defining her
identity of herself by some ill-conceived idea garnered by perhaps reading
too many issues of Propaganda and taking them seriously or looking at
bands, DJ's, strippers (although I still don't get this one- I've got a
friend who is a stripper and she certainly does not define herself as
gothic by the mere fact that she strips) and club-frequenters and assuming
rather naively that this is what it is all about. There is Gothic TM and
then there is gothic. She seems to have gotten the big G word without
grasping the small one.
>
> The real problem is that fanboy vampire sci-fi geeks are infesting most of
> the club scene in Seattle, and possibly elsewhere. I can confirm
> everything sanelson says about the Catwalk - it's all too painfully
> accurate.
If they are having a good time, listening to the music, dancing and not
directly bothering someone, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to
be there. The ones that bother me are the frat boys and types such as
this that come in and gawk like fools. Catwalk does have a dress code that
is enforced and the other thing to keep in mind is that no one can "own" a
scene. If people overall are really that concerned about the types of
people being let into the club, then the best thing would be to take it to
the management and ask them to not allow these types in. I cringe when I
see fangs too, but hey, to each his own. There is such a thing as
ignoring those who don't appeal to you and there is such a thing as
getting more people who are "cool" - whatever that is - to come out.
Seattle is a dress down city in general. For those of us who *have* lived
in other cities and see the diversity in clothing, makeup and styles,
Seattle is pathetic in it's attempts at mimicking the gothic aesthetic.
It's all textbook. I see some people with a sense of style and
originality in their dress that most definitely look very gothic, but they
are few and far between. Portland on the other hand has a very small
scene but those people know how to dress to the nines and at the same time
are tolerant and accepting of other's outward manifestions of what makes
*them* gothic. Even if that means choosing *not* to dress up. People tend
to dress up more there though exactly because of the freedom the scene
gives them to express themselves without fear of not being *cool* enough.
A girl at Catwak recently dressed up absolutely as gothic as they come
expressed the fear that she didn't look "gothic" enough and was so worried
about fitting in with her peer group she would probably never have even
taken the chance to create her own uniquely beautiful gothic "look" and
thus enhance the creativity for all around. That is the judgmental
bullshit that goes on here and *that* is why the scene is degrading. The
scene is stagnant and stale here because of it's inability to allow
freedom of expression within the "gothic" subculture itself. When truly
gothic people are afraid to go out because of being judged, then the
people who have been complained about are the ones who step in and fill
the void.
>
> It's possible that physical shape and weight are factors beyond control.
> But is it asking too much to suggest that these people either leave their
> Magic decks and their role-playing books at home or decide to attend
> "Dragoncon" as opposed to cluttering up club venues where adults
> congregate? Is it asking too much that Society For Creative Anacronism
> dimbulbs take their fake-medieval costumes to their own interminable
> functions, where they are appreciated?
Again, if it is such an objection, take it to the club.
>
> Comics and role-playing fanboys are free to go to nightclubs, just like
> anyone else. It's a free country. Is it oppressive to ask them to behave
> like adults when they get there and leave their toys at home, and try, for
> once, to dress appropriately?
Perhaps they like the music, perhaps they relate to the dark aesthetic as
well. The club is there to make money. Everyone, on the other hand should
behave as adults, although I don't see how bringing magic cards to a club
makes one *not* an adult. I have no interest in RPG's or the sci-fi thing
so I don't know any of these people, perhaps you could define what
behavior is objectionable and why. If it is gawking and harrassing people
and making others uncomfortable for who *they* are, that I agree with. If
on the other hand, it is merely because you don't like what they're into,
then don't talk to them or confront them with the fact that what they are
doing is degrading your enjoyment of the club. Catwalk caters to
"alternative" lifestyles, not just gothic. Perhaps these people feel that
their lifestyle is indeed "alternative" and could argue this effectively.
-karen
--
"At no time in my life have I been a person to hold myself polluted by the touch, habits or approach of any creature other than those who were human shape." Austin Osman Spare, c.1945
Karen Kardell
This is *not* the same individual. (I called). This individual's husband
is an electrician and she has now graduated from the u and is very
*against* drug use (which I would think a pharmacist would be), knows
nothing about gothic and was very nice and perplexed about the whole
thing.
Anyway, perhaps in the future, and this is just a suggestion, it would be
wise for us *not* to post people's home phone numbers in a public forum
until we're certain they are the correct individual (and even then, I
wonder if that's really ethical). Perhaps a private e-mail to someone who
would be willing to make a call and check out the situation first would be
better.
We're all a little edgy here because of some of the crap that's been going
on, but I would hate to think that innocent individuals could suffer the
wrath of alt.gothic unwarranted. It is, after all, just cyberspace - even
for those of us who consider it home.
just my .02
Feyd-Rautha
sane...@u.washington.edu ("I'm so much more goth than you") writes:
>I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
>as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
>your fiction world.
1) The net isn't fiction, it is real...it may not have physical
presence in the way you think of it, but reality is not based
in the physical.
>Like I said in my original article, I thought I'd take a
>look at alt.goth to see what all these fuckups thought they
>were doing.
>For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
>the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
>is apparently "There is always someone who knows more
>than you."
2) There are rules here, play by them or get flamed.
>I'm not claiming to know more than anybody.
Really? That's certainly not how it sounded.
You need lessons in clear speaking and conveyance
of concepts, my dear worm.
>I do know that repulsive dorks are ruining Seattle clubs, littering
>the tables with their Vampire role-playing handbooks and
>calling each other (and me) "m'lady". I don't care if one of
>you could write the Encyclopaedia Gothica; it won't help you
>if you do any of those things.
*ahem* "polite and fashionable society" I believe you said in
your initial post...calling someone "my lady" is polite, and
is fashionable *by definition* if a certain amount of people
exhibit this behavior, which by your testimony, they do.
>Then there's this question of "crass generalizations". I'll
>admit that I didn't end each of my remarks with "this doesn't
>apply to those of you who are cool", even though I know that
>you can't all be as pathetic as some of you clearly are. I
>hoped that by being directly addressed, you'd be more likely
>to look at yourself, since you wouldn't have the opportunity
>to assume I was talking about somebody else. This is what
>happens when you find a "non-judgmental" atmosphere in which
>you can "be yourself". It becomes too easy to stagnate.
Who said we were non-judgemental? TSM, this young man needs
your skills at tongue-lashing applied to him. And someone
should offer him a clue (for a modest price of course) before
we let him in here again.
>Here's a gem. According to Glen (a.k.a. Super Dimension
>Fortress Macross) "If you ever tried to pull that in Detroit,
>the whole club would kick your ass... and keep kicking it
>all the way back to Grunge Town..."
>Pull what?
"<rantravebabble>net.goths suck, go back to your scifi
conventions you pack of weenie wannabees <rantravebabble>"
Coming into someone else's favorite hangout and insulting
them is *not* very smart. In case you don't believe me,
go down to your local biker bar and tell them that Harley's
suck, that they should all be riding sportbikes. We'll
wait at the door of intensive care for you so we can yell
at you some more.
>I'm just addressing the dogs where they lay, on
>the net. What worthless Detroit club would rise en masse to
>defend the self-esteem of your precious mouthbreathers in
>Sandman T-shirts?
Where do you think people edge into goth from? We all have
to start out somewhere (I started out in New Wave and New
Romantic). If you keep preventing people from coming into
your scene, you won't have a scene much longer.
>Glen goes on to say that "If [I'm] Gothic, [he'll] take
>net.gothic any day of the week." Exactly my point.
Yes, I suppose Glen *would* rather be partially open-minded
rather than a fascistic little vermin who attacks anyone who
doesn't fit his idea of a perfect world.
>Now let's hear from Skate Gundy, or lXs for short: "I suggest
>you either 1) Lurk until you know what you are talking about
>and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
>2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions."
>I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
>just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
>out at all.
Once again, you assume that the brand of person you so object to
at your favorite club is brought there by the net, and *only*
the net. If you would stop being such a provincial fuckwit, and
ask these people to not bring in those things which you feel
clutter up your precious club (they may actually be *playing*
Vampire there, with the permission of the club), you might find
yourself less anally clenched about it all.
>And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
as a wise man/woman/small-furry-creature-from-alpha-centauri once
said:
"know your enemy before you go to battle"
>lXs continues: "You actually think that in your little corner
>of the world, that's where all the goths exist? Don't be so
>vain. There are people who've been into goth longer than you
>and there will be people who find you to be a poseur, even in
>Seattle. Convergence I showed everyone to be the genuine article
>and I find it doubtful that any poseur or Troll would trek a
>couple of days and spend $ and time on meeting net.goths they
>had met through alt.gothic."
>Everyone was the genuine article, huh? Did they all win a
>participation ribbon too? You praise their efforts spent
>going to a convention.
Convergence is not a convention, it is groups of net.goths vying
for the honor of having from 30-60 people they don't know by voice
(or sometimes face) spend some time in their city experiencing what
it is to be a goth there. I heard Chicago went well, I expect Boston
to go well also, but next year I may well be helping to organize,
or at least provide ideas for, Convergence III in San Francisco.
>This would seem to qualify their bona fides as con dweebs...
>not as nightclubbers.
what do you think we *do* at convergence, sit in the hotel all night?
I believe part of Cusraque's plans for Convergence II involve several
nights (almost all of them) spent at Man Ray, including concerts by
bands such as SwitchBlade Symphony (and there's been discussion of
trying to get Valor to bring Christian Death in also).
>By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
>specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
>and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
>"grunge town" is the center of the goth world, as some
>have accused. I'm just pointing out something that sucks,
>something you guys may be able to do something about, and
>something which might be happening elsewhere.
You *might* try saying "Hey, this sucks, do you have any advice?"
rather than "Hey, this sucks, you assholes are to blame and
here's what wrong with you <rantragefumeincoherently>..."
Now, kindly go die in a dumpster so you don't
take up any nice coffins or anything, alright?
oddlystrange
S Nelson (sane...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
bye!
hope the door hits your ass on the way out
<damn children>
oddlystrange
(who's glad Seattle has been warned, and this girl was beginning to
border on a kind letter to postm...@u.washington.edu)
--
oddlystrange -- the perkygoff fairy godmother
-----------------(who will make a purtier sig later)----------------------
perkygoff east coast branch office now located at:
http://www.obscure.org/~perky
exile
fe...@cats.ucsc.edu (Feyd-Rautha) hathe written,
>Lord Boo Raphrat writes:
>>Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 10-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
>>CA.. by Count Von Sex...@batt.de
>>>In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
>>> sane...@u.washington.edu "friendless undergraduate" loses:
>>8< respectively snipped >8
>>> You do not win a kebab, however you are eligible for a signed
>>> photograph of London taken from a plane during an emergency landing,
>>> please forward your home address to claim your prize.
>>dammit, guys....
>>finally someone so infinately stupid comes along who manages to get
>>my dander up enough to torch his posterior, and EVERYONE
>>gets to him first.... so i'll refrain from any muscle flexing in
>>public....
>>tho' t'would've been fun.....
>>i wanna kebab...
>>*pout*
>well, look at it this way, he's probably stupid enough
>to *respond* to the flames, so we may get another round
>of kebab-attempts, correct?
I still haven't figured out what the point was in the first place.
Why don't you just have a kebab anyway?
{exile}
oddlystrange
after tall this the twit has the gall to repost.... oh we have a gem of
an idiot here.
Haven't seen this in years (I'm seething with it I swear) Just the
knowledge that some of us were born with Beauty *and* brains and some of
us weren't
S Nelson (sane...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
: as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
: your fiction world.
why thank you.... what fictional i-'m-the-center-of-the-universe world do
you hale from BTW?
: First off, I'd like to address the slander leveled against me
: by someone claiming that I too was a net.goth by virtue of my
: posting here.
ummm... try suing in a court for that being slander. I triple dog dare
you. You'd be laughed out of the sourt in a second since you have not a
leg to stand on.
By that logic, I'm straight because I've done a
: man. Like I said in my original article, I thought I'd take a
: look at alt.goth to see what all these fuckups thought they
: were doing.
LOOK KIDS yet another person who claims that their bisexual!!!
woo-hoo
trendy fuck.
I mean that literally.
: For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
: the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
: is apparently "There is always someone who knows more
: than you."
this will apply to life too you know... and in your case to all the
little trendy circles you've belonged to.
I'm not claiming to know more than anybody. I do
: know that repulsive dorks are ruining Seattle clubs, littering
: the tables with their Vampire role-playing handbooks and
: calling each other (and me) "m'lady". I don't care if one of
: you could write the Encyclopaedia Gothica; it won't help you
: if you do any of those things.
I want this encyclopedia!!!!
: Then there's this question of "crass generalizations". I'll
: admit that I didn't end each of my remarks with "this doesn't
: apply to those of you who are cool", even though I know that
: you can't all be as pathetic as some of you clearly are. I
: hoped that by being directly addressed, you'd be more likely
: to look at yourself, since you wouldn't have the opportunity
: to assume I was talking about somebody else. This is what
: happens when you find a "non-judgmental" atmosphere in which
: you can "be yourself". It becomes too easy to stagnate.
you do realize that you are talking to over 50,000 people here don't
you??? Oh so much more thank your little circle of influence. You can't
cut it in the big bad world. You are confined to your circle and for the
most part to yourself.
*you* live in a fantasy world, that will come crashing down on you
eventually when you realize how big and bad the world is beyond your
sphee of influence.
You are going to realize that people don't like you. That even your
friends think of you as a complete waste of space. They may have been
impressed by you orginally, but will find you completely boring -- like a
cardboard cut out contributing noting.
I am only speaking from having seen it with many people in the scene who
had their comet-like moment of brilliance and are now "untouchables"
without friends and without any scene to call home since none will
welcome them nor tolerate them.
just something to mull on... just something to filter through you mask.
: Here's a gem. According to Glen (a.k.a. Super Dimension
: Fortress Macross) "If you ever tried to pull that in Detroit,
: the whole club would kick your ass... and keep kicking it
: all the way back to Grunge Town..."
that would happen in DC as well. Here we'd just make fun of you (to you
face no less) as you peacocked around the club.
within a month you'd never show up again.
: Pull what? I'm just addressing the dogs where they lay, on
: the net. What worthless Detroit club would rise en masse to
: defend the self-esteem of your precious mouthbreathers in
: Sandman T-shirts?
oh some of us give a shit about our scene in case you haven't noticed.
: Glen goes on to say that "If [I'm] Gothic, [he'll] take
: net.gothic any day of the week." Exactly my point.
here's the crux of where we all disagree. You, dear, are Not gothic nor
will you ever be considered gothic unless you go out and get a serious
attitude change.
you will be hated and despised everywhere you go. You will wear out your
welcome no matter where you land -- because to the mass majority of you
you represent nothing more than a normal in a black dress (wow can we put
that on the t-shirts kids??). Worthless.
Your whining and bitching, you SHEER HYPOCRACY (quit whining, but listen
to me bitch) proves it.
: Now let's hear from Skate Gundy, or lXs for short: "I suggest
: you either 1) Lurk until you know what you are talking about
: and can tell between individual net.goths and Trolls or
: 2) walk into a net.goth meet and voice your opinions."
you need to learn how to do a follow-up and quote properly. In the least
it will allow you to make a fool out of yourself a lot quicker.
: I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
circle jerks rock!
: just want them to look nice when they go out clubbing or not go
: out at all. And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
: You're all right here. I suppose if I wanted to see you I
: might go, but for reasons which should be all too clear, I don't.
well you would get your ass kicked anyhow...
that or we'd introduce you to scary gary since you two seem to have a
whole lot in common.
: Everyone was the genuine article, huh? Did they all win a
: participation ribbon too? You praise their efforts spent
: going to a convention. This would seem to establish their
: bona fides as con dweebs, but hardly as goths, and certainly
: not as nightclubbers.
You have no idea what we're talking about. Get your head out of you ass.
It helps you hear a lot better.
But if you're going to keep it there kindly shove it up a little further
so it covers your mouth.
: lXs again: "If I were to follow your example, equating people
: I did not know to be gamers and con-goers, I would find you a
: teenybopper who claims to be goth for so long, but was in baggy
: clothes just a year ago..."
: I'm not equating every reader of alt.gothic with the pathetic
: Caramello scum; I'm equating the convention refugees with
: many of the failures who post here. I'm offering some advice
: which is desperately needed locally. I didn't post here to
: impress you, and the thought that someone might laugh at me
: is not enough to keep me from laughing at them. But I'm
: laughing through tears.
KINDLY NOTE: how you avoid the question of when you joined the scene. We
notice
nice dodge. but not unnoticed
another rule of life: there will always be someone who's been into goth a
lot longer than you have. And they will laug at you when you say you've
been in the scene for any length of time.
: Many people post here bitching about how they go out to clubs
: and are treated with disdain. I'm giving them better advice
: than "just feel good about yourself, it doesn't matter what
: other people think." If it didn't matter what other people
: thought, they wouldn't have been upset enough to post. Many
: of these people are crippled by their nerdy social background,
yeah and then a few of us went out and bough firearms...
: but they aren't able to perceive that. I'm telling them why
: people look down on them, not encouraging them to cut
: themselves off and be content with conventions and virtual
: chat rooms where they won't have to be seen and all the
: friends that PBS can provide.
you're thinking aol again aren't you. Wrong.
: As for net.goth DJ's, industry types, club owners -- no
: mention of strippers, I see -- if they produce something
: worthwhile, good for them. Even if they do, though, that
: won't excuse them if they decide to look and act like fuckups
: when they go out. Speaking from experience, I've known very
: few industry people who would go to a "meet" of any sort
: in a million years. Ditto DJ's. As for zines, they are at
: least as likely to be crap as any other "literary
: environment," whatever that is.
you would spread your legs for anything wouldn't you??
: Sorry about your little friend, lXs. Nothing succeeds like
: success and nothing fails like failure.
: Karen, I won't respond to your post in detail as it
: reproduces what's already been said, but you really had
: your head in the therapeutic clouds Saturday if you didn't
: see how many vile people were there, front room and back.
: I don't know most of the net.goths you mentioned, but
: DJ Azrael is a lying, no-talent, mumbling idiot who tells
: girls he's autistic to excuse his being such an asshole.
: He is the single worst DJ I've ever been subjected to,
: and he's killed more venues than Typhoid Mary.
he won't sleep with you will he?
: You're right. I haven't read the "Goth Code."
: By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
: specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
: and most of my detractors haven't. I don't think that
: "grunge town" is the center of the goth world, as some
: have accused. I'm just pointing out something that sucks,
: something you guys may be able to do something about, and
: something which might be happening elsewhere.
seriously we're only doing it to piss you off
oddlystrange
(who enjoys pissing people off every now and then)
Skate-Gundy
spi...@netcom.com (oddlystrange) writes:
:sane...@u.washington.edu
>: I have succeeded.
>in making a total ass out of myself, not to mention having sex with smurfs...
>(ok I just wanted that kebob again... although I know sexbat isn't going
>to let me qualify anymore)
I'd give you a kebab, but I'd have to steal it from gundy!
lXs
listening to J.D.
Skate-Gundy
Thomas Parkin <tpa...@fix.net> writes:
[snipping]
I have already responded to your previous post. You would have
seen it by now.
It's you who have become vitriolic and incensed. Tell
me, O Defender of S Nelson, are you looking for strippers
and sex too?
Many people have responded to S Nelson kindly on the first
go-around, but clearly not much sunk in. Are you that way
too? Like a broken record?
lXs
face iz white! eyes iz tired!
sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>This is the last I'm going to write, since alt.gothic is completely
>peripheral. It is a teenager trying to masturbate by moonlight
>and hence going blind twice as fast.
>I will leave you to your privacy.
oh now COME ON.
such a fucking TEASE.
you know, you did one thing few people have actually managed to do
lately -
got me out and actually reading a flamefest, rather than deleting
the whole putrid mess.
perhaps it was the catchy title "Net.goths fucked the CATWALK"
i just dont know.
call me one in a million, but damn this is one flame-troll
that makes me *curious* to meet the bait in person. but you have to
ride a bike, and promise to be nice to me when i show up
dressed notgoth.
kay?
oh, and you have to come to sf.
thank you. really. its been entertaining, for flamebait. dont go away.
lurve,
-joel
--
joel metz magpie@{sirius, echo}.com
-=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=- -=oOo=-
"all good people lost in love should never lose their souls" - sdc
-=oOo=- "they all call me crazee... ...but im free!" -=oOo=-
v perkygoff world headquarters, sf, ca v
Skate-Gundy
William C Isenhour <wi...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> You know,
> the real punchline of this is the
> fact that after reading my post,
> this greasespot mailed me up and
After that dramatic exit?
knew it wouldn't last.
lXs
listening to J.D.
Skate-Gundy
spi...@netcom.com (oddlystrange) writes:
>Skate-Gundy (slc...@phakt.usc.edu) wrote:
>: I'd give you a kebab, but I'd have to steal it from gundy!
>this warrents a cartwheel!!!!
oh no! gundy wants to keep it!
he sez it's a special special one
and plus he's getting that yummy^4 seal spread from Vlad
Icthyolicious!
lXs
who sez
maybe oddly will take a GGAF! sticker instead? I think Jilli's
planning to print some.
Count Von Sexbat
In article <4pklrd$1...@larry.rice.edu> Sande writes:
>From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>
>Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
I'm still going to call her Susan.
Thomas Parkin
Skate-Gundy wrote:
> I have already responded to your previous post. You would have
> seen it by now.
I'm sorry, I did not see it. I have a really crappy news server,
apparently- There are things that I seem to never see. Please mail it to
me, if possible
> It's you who have become vitriolic and incensed. Tell
> me, O Defender of S Nelson, are you looking for strippers
> and sex too?
Sometimes- I have known several strippers in Seattle- They are
among my favroite people- I am a little incensed. (I'm sorry, but what
good did it do to post all that personal info on her- including a home
phone!) But it's not personal- That is something that has bothered me
here- She was obviously over-the-top- and everyone took it so personally-
That is kind of a redneck response- "Hey CHIEF, you cant say that about
us!" And yes I am defending S Nelson, partly because I know she has some
good reasons for her attitude, and partly because I have some deep-seated
need to take the side of the underdog, which always gets me into trouble-
>
> Many people have responded to S Nelson kindly on the first
> go-around, but clearly not much sunk in. Are you that way
> too? Like a broken record?
Again, I entered this late, and I didn't immediatley see what was
going on- This is not a retraction of anything I said, only an
acknowledgement that there are legitimate points being made against my
dearest SNelson too- I never saw her original post, nor have I seen a
single kind responce to her- But I'm certainly willing to take your word
for it. Hey, peace-- Tom
Dragoness Eclectic
On Jun 11, 1996 00:02:36 in article <Re: Net.goths fucked the CATWALK>,
'sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson)' wrote:
>I'd like to congratulate everyone who responded to my post,
>as it shows a willingness to engage with people from outside
>your fiction world.
fictional little world...
>For this reason, I can't be expected to care about
>the "Rules of Usenet". Like the "First Rule of Usenet", which
>is apparently "There is always someone who knows more
>the tables with their Vampire role-playing handbooks and
>calling each other (and me) "m'lady". I don't care if one of
>you could write the Encyclopaedia Gothica; it won't help you
>if you do any of those things.
You're posting your opinions to the entire Usenet. Let me
repeat that: the Entire Usenet. That's the world-spanning
Internet, plus uucp links to computers off the Internet,
plus FIDOnet shadowing into literally every country
on the globe. Now, I'll admit there's probably damn few
readers of alt.gothic in, say, Pago Pago, but you should
get my point: whining globally about what you (one person)
doesn't like about a few clubs in ONE city in one tiny
corner of the globe is bad enough, but then somehow blaming
this global cyberspace community for your *personal* problems
with the purely local scene is downright idiotic.
>I don't want to improve net.goths at their circle.jerks; I
>out at all. And why should I bother going to a net.goth meet?
you want them to stay out of your sight. Is that what you
are saying?
Jerk.
>You're all right here. I suppose if I wanted to see you I
>might go, but for reasons which should be all too clear, I don't.
>I'm not equating every reader of alt.gothic with the pathetic
>Caramello scum; I'm equating the convention refugees with
>many of the failures who post here. I'm offering some advice
fool child? You are not a person who is qualified to offer
anyone "advice".
>By the way, it should be remembered that I am writing
>specifically about conditions in Seattle, which I've seen
the entire damn planet?!?
If you're the epitomy of the Seattle "scene", I'd rather move
to Aberdeen...
--dragoness, smoldering...
--
"And the angels had guitars
even before they had wings" -- Meatloaf
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhi...@usa.pipeline.com
Thomas Parkin
Karen Kardell wrote:
>
> I think that perhaps if she had chosen to word her objections in a way
> that showed some modicum of thoughtfulness the results may have been
> different. If her issue is the Catwalk in Seattle, it should have stuck
> to that. Blanket generalizations that "all" net.goth frequenters
Very well said. At last the voice of reason.
> She sounds like a groupie a lot more than a goth.
I don't know about that. She certainly doesn't sound like a goth
Someone else has said it, and I think it puts some things into
perspective- The Catwalk is not really a goth club. The music, in the
larger area, is mostly industrial- In fact, goths are a minority in the
club scene in Seattle-
> The ones that bother me are the frat boys and types such as this that
> come in and gawk like fools.
Amen.
Snipped a bunch-
This was easily the best post that I have seen in this thread.
Everyone, myself included, can learn a lesson from the measured,
reasonable way Karen has put forward her views. No name calling, etc.
Nicely done.
Thom
> -karen
Sande
(unfortunately, I can not quote right now)
Karen, I appreciate everything you have to say. That info was
taken from the Student Directory, which is public
information already. I had to make a guess on who the
individual was from a list, as there is a sanelson listed
on saul (one of u.washington's computers), but not on
homer (the main one)
But even so, it could be a similar situation as with John
Blackmer, where a troll takes over an innocent person's
account without that person's knowledge. (Has her account
been canceled yet?)
I'm glad that you called. I had no way of doing so, and
was hoping someone would look into it.
(The same with John Blackmer troll, whom we now know is in S.F.)
lXs
listening to J.D.
C-ko
Is it oppressive to ask them to behave
> like adults when they get there and leave their toys at home, and try, for
> once, to dress appropriately?
Who the hell are you, my grandmother?! You certainly sound like her!
"Oh, you can't go out to the little goth club in THAT! Put on this velvet
dress and pointy boots! Oh, you look so lovely!"
What the fuck is 'dressing properly'?!!
If I go to your club and don't meet the 'dress code', I'll gladly pay the
higher price so I can wear clothes that truly reflect me - how I feel,
what I think is comfortable, etc. And if my textile semiotics that day are
blue jeans and a worn Skinny Puppy t-shirt, that is what I'll wear going
out. If this makes me too uncool to talk to, well then, that's your loss.
I certainly won't sweat it.
God, it's bad enough that I have a dress code at Sears, now I have one if
i go clubbing in Seattle!
C-ko, dressed improperly
--
"Sodomy with plastic sharks is something perhaps we should discuss
further." -cEvin Key- *<-- Churchill
sel...@facstaff.wisc.edu, Boot Wearin' Rabid Amazon Industro-Woman
*** Home page down - having a time out in the quiet room ***
oddlystrange
Sande wrote:
: From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
: Pharmacy
why am i not suprised
prolly decided to become a pharmasist for all the freebies
(this is nothing personal to the people who actually want to be
pharmasists :) )
oddlystrange
(who wonders if that was her number or the dept's number I'd like to give
her a buzz sometime)
C-ko
In article <4pgg01$1...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, sane...@u.washington.edu
(S Nelson) wrote:
> Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
> you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
> heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
> towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
> grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
> You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
<shrug> whatever.
I guess both my parents were *goth* then - they've both been in treatment
for drug addiction.
C-ko, teetotaling convention nerd who Dares To Be Different.
nikolai kingsley
>
> Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
> drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
> burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
> distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
> cynical.
>
and besides that, it kills off the dumb ones. very Darwinian.
> Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
> music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
> They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
> real goths.
`ME overman! dese MY comic-books!'
- Revelation X
sigh. i'm glad i'm a Maracite.
nikolai
oddlystrange
face iz white! eyes iz tired! (mag...@sirius.com) wrote:
: got me out and actually reading a flamefest, rather than deleting
: the whole putrid mess.
I dunno... it's like some old school flamefest from "back in the days"
kinda makes me feel all fuzzy inside...
damn I'm loving every post of it
oddlystrange
(who doesn't think we need more of them, but heck likes the one we have now)
Kevin O' Gorman
Sande writes:
>From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
>Fifth Year
>Pharmacy
>226-5705
>sne...@u.washington.edu
Which wouldn't be her, the addy in question being sanelson, not
snelson.
K.
-
--
"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea/By sea-girls wreathed T( )T
with seaweed red and brown/Till human voices wake us, and we drown."| )( |
GoNQ TPAd PMo M3 C6o a20- b71 g7L w7T r8ebIs s50 Rz Sr N0693 Lie -v2.5 |(/\)|
{http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~spidey/index.html}---{spi...@maths.tcd.ie} ======
oddlystrange
Skate-Gundy (slc...@phakt.usc.edu) wrote:
: spi...@netcom.com (oddlystrange) writes:
: :sane...@u.washington.edu
: >: I have succeeded.
: >in making a total ass out of myself, not to mention having sex with smurfs...
: >(ok I just wanted that kebob again... although I know sexbat isn't going
: >to let me qualify anymore)
: I'd give you a kebab, but I'd have to steal it from gundy!
this warrents a cartwheel!!!!
woo-hoo
obnet.gothatwork: I have to fill out all these photo orders at my work
and the other day I was enjoying one so much that i actually wrote
woo-hoo on it somewhere... needless to say the lab personell are coming
out and saying woo-hoo a lot.
that and they complain about my nailpolish chipping all over the tape :)
: listening to J.D.
you know I think I'll go put on disorder right now
"who is right and who can tell and who gives a damn right now"
word to live by
oddlystrange
(who's going to put that somewhere one of these days)
^Nicodemus^
lXs hath spoke thusly:
> Actually, S Nelson might be a "She"
I have come to this conclusion also. The confusing bit posted about being
straight because it (we'll say it for now since the sex is what we're
discussing and I really don't think it deserves to be more than an it anyways)
has been with a man. I had to read that one a couple times to attempt to
follow the mess guised as logic. I finally figured that S Nelson is female and
it all made a "little" more sense.
^Nicodemus^
--
GothCode 2.0:
GoTh!3En+ TJtAn B6/13Br cNR(BR)c+3GM PSc(PrL) V+s M++p9w ZGo(Nr!!)
C+3p2umecp a21+ n+O b-:+ H175 g+! mEa1+ w++AT r+B D-! h+FA(AnJt)
s9 k++BN Rm SsYy N0194WPnlw LusOH- HfmSp10
Skate-Gundy
spi...@maths.tcd.ie (Kevin O' Gorman) writes:
>Which wouldn't be her, the addy in question being sanelson, not
>snelson.
If she was on that computer, it would have been a diff addy.
lXs
doesn't matter, someone already wrote the postmaster.
oddlystrange
Karen Kardell (drag...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: We're all a little edgy here because of some of the crap that's been going
: on, but I would hate to think that innocent individuals could suffer the
: wrath of alt.gothic unwarranted. It is, after all, just cyberspace - even
: for those of us who consider it home.
she really ought to change her password then...
oddlystrange
(who will be contacting the school soon)
William C Isenhour
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 10-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
>
> dammit, guys....
>
> finally someone so infinately stupid comes along who manages to get
> my dander up enough to torch his posterior, and EVERYONE
> gets to him first.... so i'll refrain from any muscle flexing in
> public....
>
> tho' t'would've been fun.....
>
> i wanna kebab...
> *pout*
You know,
the real punchline of this is the
fact that after reading my post,
this greasespot mailed me up and
informed me that he was going to make me his bitch.
Did he do this to anyone
else or was I singled out for this distinction?
I'd repost this garbage so
that you could all get a nice close look
at what it looks like when
a coward gets backed against a wall,
but then that would be rude.
--The One and Only.
Skate-Gundy
unse...@wizards.com (Jillian Sutter) writes:
>Jesus, I leave for 2 weeks, and there's this whole explosion about the
>Catwalk. As my friend Alex pointed out in a couple of his posts, so what
>if some of the people who go to clubs are gamers? So? I'm a gamer. A
>lot of my friends are. I'm also a perkygoth, and I go to clubs. So, am I
>not cool enough 'cos I don't do drugs and I'm not promiscuous?
we *luv* you Jilli and can't wait for the perkygoff branch in
Seattle!!!
(Not to mention to GGAF! stickers!)
*bounce* *bounce*
gundy o gundy!
Allison C Serpe
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 10-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
> we can assume that most of the regulars here,
> <myself most certainly included>
> are in possesion of some serious ego.
Pleased you said "most"
Excess and Oohs,
++Allison++
"Hell is other people"-Sartre GothCode (2.0): GoFA TB(MD) (sd)
B11/23/BK!]^1 CBKs++ Mo(Sh) V+s M++4 p1 ZGoGnIn C+ a19+ !!n3na(v)
b+:-3(D) H5'6" g++! m3Ea+3 W++! r-- D++~ h++ s10 K+/K-3n Sry n1
LusPA(NY)+ fms http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~serpe/end.html
William C Isenhour
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 11-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
CA.. by Skarrin Kilgarrin@wizard
>
> Shallow. Pretentious. Irritating. To steal (flagrantly...Jilli uses it
> a lot, so will I...it's amazingly accurate) from TSM...part of the 40%.
I think I'm going to have to
form a list based on this principal
<shameless>
<plug>
<avail. @ http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~wi23/fortypercent.html>
</plug>
and post it as a subsidiary to the Deathlist.
I'm seeing that there might be a use for it as of late.
--TSM
</truth>
oddlystrange
Skate-Gundy (slc...@alcor.usc.edu) wrote:
: maybe oddly will take a GGAF! sticker instead? I think Jilli's
: planning to print some.
sounds good to me
but I still want to get a kebob someday
oddlystrange
(who just likes the word kebob)
Hardrock and Arethusa
[on oddlystrange's mention of working in a photo lab]
Being a photographic lab tech and a photographer myself, i am kind of
interested in where you work love.
--
Hardrock Llewynyth, DNRC and Arethusa Nightshade
hard...@speakeasy.org http://kendaco.telebyte.com/dharland
In his errors a man is true to type. Observe his errors and you will know
the man. --Kung Chi'u (Confucious)
The Shechemist
> > From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
> >
> >
> >
> > Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
> > sne...@u.washington.edu
^^^^^^^
Wrong Login folks. Try fingering sanelson.
Shechemist
Cousin Badger Addams
What is Goth?
That seems to be our defining question doesn't it?
It seems like most of the threads on this group deal with that question in
some way or another.
We are all struggling to attain some sort of self actualization- and as
part of that, many of us are looking for some kind of definition of what
we are, or what we should be.
The truth is that we aren't "supposed" to be any particular way at all.
We only have to be comfortable.
Finding others who are like us, who are comfortable in the same
environments as us, is far more important than what we wear or whether our
eyeliner is or isn't asymetrical.
We each define Goth in a different way- some of us define it by how we
dress, some define it by how we think...but there is no "one true gothic
way". One of the most gothic people I know tends to hang around in a pair
of faded fatigues, a t-shirt and vans. (Of course it's a Sisters of Mercy
T-shirt)
When people start trying to dictate to us what is and is not goth, they
are basically telling us that we should be an exclusionary community and I
can't support that at all. To begin with it leads to inbreeding of ideas
and stagantion of thought. I hate to think about all that I would have
missed out on if I had decided to ignore the girl in the hideous neon
green shirt who I met at a meeting. She certainly isn't a goth- but if it
weren't for her I would've failed to have some of the best times of my
life and I probably wouldn't have met the people who now make up my
sort-of extended family.
So I say, not only should people who are kind-of gothish be allowed to
show up at the clubs, but they should be made welcome and given the chance
to prove whether or not they're interesting and well behaved. Judging
people on a case by case basis is so much more fun.
These are not the oppinions of Wizards of the Coast.
Rhias K. Hall
Cousin Badger
William C Isenhour
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 11-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
> sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
> [some rather sad trolls]
Was it a troll?
You usually don't pick up
responses on this kind of garbage.
> William C Isenhour <wi...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> [some equally sad macho posturing]
Nothing unusual.
> Oh good, can we now put the 2 of them in a corner and watch them fight it out
> with sharpened eyeliner pencils ? Please...
Give me a dollar and we can talk.
> I'm not quite sure which posting annoyed me more. Why do people always have
> to rise to this sort of bait ?
Look around,
I wasn't the only one.
Besides, it's kind of amusing.
However,
I get the point.
--TSM
Jillian Sutter
In article <sljB0hW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, William C Isenhour
<wi...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson) writes:
>
> >Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
> >music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
> >They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
> >real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
> >produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
> >thought that it matters.
>
> You ratfucking little pusswad,
> Tell me,
> what the fuck do you look like?
> I've a good mind to fly to Seattle,
> find your ass and smack the taste from your mouth, boy.
do it, TSM. You can stay at my house while you're here! You and my Wacky
Artist Roommate (tm) can talk about what you'll do with this idiot's
skeleton, afterwards.
> Talk shit like this in real life,
> I DARE you,
> I know there are some net.goths in Seattle,
> and I also know that they
> would grind your head into the asphalt
> until you HAVE NO FACE LEFT
> if they heard you spout shit like this in public.
Personally, I have some very large and violent friends that I like to
contract that sort of stuff out to, but you're right.
Jesus, I leave for 2 weeks, and there's this whole explosion about the
Catwalk. As my friend Alex pointed out in a couple of his posts, so what
if some of the people who go to clubs are gamers? So? I'm a gamer. A
lot of my friends are. I'm also a perkygoth, and I go to clubs. So, am I
not cool enough 'cos I don't do drugs and I'm not promiscuous?
There are people who are in the Seattle scene that I don't like for
various reasons. I don't go bitch about them in a public forum. I just
don't talk to them. Tell me, S Nelson, have you tried that? Or did
someone make you the sole arbitrator for what passes for goth in Seattle
while I was on vacation, and I just hadn't heard it yet? If so, will
someone please send me this month's goth newsletter so I can get caught up
on the proper things to wear at the proper places to be seen, and who are
the cool people that we're all supposed to worship *this* month?
-Jilli
(I'm telling ya'...I leave on vacation, the universe goes wonky.)
**"Gracious pet, ** "We're tragic, romantic figures- **
**I'm a supernatural being."** we're so much cooler than you!" **
*****************************************************************
(honest, none of this reflects my workplace's opinion.)
William C Isenhour
Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 12-Jun-96 Re: Net.goths fucked the
CA.. by ^Nicodemus^@miavx1.acs.m
>
> I have come to this conclusion also. The confusing bit posted about being
> straight because it (we'll say it for now since the sex is what we're
> discussing and I really don't think it deserves to be more than an it
anyways)
> has been with a man. I had to read that one a couple times to attempt to
> follow the mess guised as logic. I finally figured that S Nelson is
female and
> it all made a "little" more sense.
>
> ^Nicodemus^
I'm with Sexbat,
I think that we still ought to call it Susan.
--TSM
oddlystrange
Hardrock and Arethusa (hard...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: [on oddlystrange's mention of working in a photo lab]
: Being a photographic lab tech and a photographer myself, i am kind of
: interested in where you work love.
the answer you seek is in your mailbox
oddlystrange
(who is sounding very much like a fortune cookie today)
Rosaleen Dhu
> Do you have any idea the kind of balls it
> takes to address an audience of 50,000?
> From this,
> we can assume that most of the regulars here,
> <myself most certainly included>
> are in possesion of some serious ego.
Who? Us? *blink blink*
Yes, I just posted something ^that^ stupid to an audience
of 50,000.
So, is it ego or chutzpah? *grin*
--
May all your evenings be irrationally enchanting,
Rosaleen Dhu
---<--{<@ ^*^ @>}-->---
~~~~~OoO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~OoO~~~~~
"and at least I left some stories they could tell -
I did!" - Jack
~~~~~oOo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~oOo~~~~~
Skate-Gundy
22bb...@sirius.com (Moriarty) writes:
>>But even so, it could be a similar situation as with John
>>Blackmer, where a troll takes over an innocent person's
>>account without that person's knowledge. (Has her account
>>been canceled yet?)
>What's the reasoning behind having her account cancelled? You don't like what
>she said?
>Hmmm... kinda like Stalin-Gundy?
>Sorry, I just love that Free Speech thing, please don't use mob-rule to have
>my account cancelled...
Would you read the paragraph before you jump to conclusions, Moriarty?
If a troll takes over an innocent person's account without that person's
knowledge, whose account is it? The troll's or the person who
already graduated? If your account was being used by someone to
post flames without your knowledge like John Blackmer's was,
would you still want the acocunt? Or would you want to have your
name smeared with the troll's racist and obscene posts? Is it
Free Speech to abuse someone else's good name? Is it Free Speech
to do what the John Blackmer troll is doing to John Blackmer?
Please answer.
lXs
Bryce Byerley
> to dress up more there though exactly because of the freedom the scene
> gives them to express themselves without fear of not being *cool* enough.
> A girl at Catwak recently dressed up absolutely as gothic as they come
> expressed the fear that she didn't look "gothic" enough and was so worried
> about fitting in with her peer group she would probably never have even
> taken the chance to create her own uniquely beautiful gothic "look" and
> thus enhance the creativity for all around. That is the judgmental
> bullshit that goes on here and *that* is why the scene is degrading. The
> scene is stagnant and stale here because of it's inability to allow
> freedom of expression within the "gothic" subculture itself. When truly
> gothic people are afraid to go out because of being judged, then the
> people who have been complained about are the ones who step in and fill
> the void.
Well spoken, A lot of us enjoy the music and the fashion, but don't have the
time or the energy or the inclination to put on the warpaint 24 hours a day.
I dress up for special times, but otherwise I'm quite happy with black jeans
and a cotton shirt.
But the most important thing about this thread is that you are your own judge of
"Gothness." If some Pretentious fuck in the club decides that you are a "posuer"
or "part-time-goth" or whatever, to hell with 'em. You can't be part of their
elite. What a fucking tragedy, just keep your elite off my section of the dance
floor.
Personally, I find it much easier to just kick their ass. It's hard to be elite
when the blood from your nose is ruining their 6 hour make-up job. Ahhhh, perhaps
it's time to start with the Prozac. Besides, you don't get Goth-Points for
Physical Violence.
-B
--
"When I die, I want to go | Bryce Byerley
like my Grandfather...in | bry...@cris.com
his sleep. Not screaming | spa...@resort.com
like the other passengers | http://www.cris.com/~bryce-b
in his car." |
-Bob Monkhouse |
Skate-Gundy
Their company is into that, so of course it's part of what the
Wizards.com folks do.
I would hazard that nobody really cares (except for those
detractors) whether or not a goth participates in Role Playing
Games. The two zones are not mutually exclusive, you know.
I would also guess that Moriarty did not catch any of the beginning
of this thread where (some) people responded kindly to S Nelson,
including me (who invited her to come to a net.goth meet so she
could see what net.goths were like and to lurk on alt.gothic)
and despite that, she continued on with her "you are a bunch
of losers" and "you are responsible for f*cking up this club"
train of thought
Skate-Gundy
22bb...@sirius.com (Moriarty) writes:
>You're not a very nice Fairy Godmother...
>Kind of more like the Fairy Godcensor...
Why would she be a censor? She hasn't prevented anyone from posting.
>Fairy Godforbid you ever disagree with the tribe you're whipping into a
>witch-hunt... Tough to train people out of that "burning at the stake" mindset
>once you've set the ball rolling, eh wot?
>Yours, concerned,
>-M.
I guess Moriarty wants a kebab.
bqt...@usa.pipeline.com
On Jun 12, 1996 01:42:36 in article <Net.goths fucked the CATWALK>, 'Sande'
wrote:
>(The same with John Blackmer troll, whom we now know is in S.F.)
Except that his last post, ostensibly from SF and with an SF reply address,
had a harvard.edu message-id line and harvard in the newspath.
Disturbance, who's gotten good at reading headers out of self-defense
--
Andrew W. Ragland, Product Support Manager, R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant
bqt...@usa.pipeline.com *** a.g.CR Charter Member
GoTW!4)Au!3( TM(An) B0/32Bk GR{BR}p+4BM PPrSaG V++s M++p2wD ZGo(NrGnCl)
C+3P2e a33 n*O b-:+D H193 g+* m-3 w++T r++E D-% h+ S* k++* Rm SmNn N0689n1w
LusTN+ HzMc2p4
Thomas Parkin
Edward Johnson wrote:
> elitism and such self important egoism
I rather like that description of myself. Reality is hierarchal,
like it or no. This doesn't mean I don't like gamers. But their are
personalities and there are personas; in other words, there are people
who are living and people who are role-playing. I am one gloomy egoist,
but all I really care about is getting to the bottom of things- I'm not
in the least interested in keeping down the plebs. And I'm not interested
in calling you names, EdVamp-
> As for Sanctuary, bullshit. It's time to grow up and realize that there
> is no such animal,
Well, there was once a Sanctuary. For one brief shining
moment- or should I say, one brief moment of gorgeous opaqueness-And it
is gone.
> and if you can't deal with the commoners and riff raff
> that happen to like your private little club, too fucking bad.
Exactly, it is too fucking bad.
As for taking the side of S Nelson. I've made a good apology
elsewhere.
Thom
Christopher Friedenberg
> Allison C Serpe <ser...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> William C Isenhour@andre
>> we can assume that most of the regulars here,
>> <myself most certainly included>
>> are in possesion of some serious ego.
>Pleased you said "most"
>++Allison++
The first time or the second...?!
--Christopher
Lisa Kellner
On 10 Jun 1996 06:40:01 GMT, sane...@u.washington.edu (S Nelson)
wrote:
>Last night I went to the Catwalk, the top Seattle gothic nightclub.
>The crowd there was the most repellent I have ever seen it since they
>opened. Knowing that one reason for the gothic scene's deterioration is
>the influx of sci-fi conventioneers, gamers, and net-dweebs, I decided
>to take a look at alt.goth and see what the problem was.
(cut)
>That is what the gothic "scene" is supposed to be: fashionable society.
>An alternative fashion, but fashion nonetheless. If you don't spend the
>time on clothes and makeup, you're no goth. I'm reminded of an anecdote
>from Captain Sensible about the early punk rock days in London. He and
>some of his friends were at a club, and Siouxsie Sioux came up to them
>and sneeringly said that they weren't real punks. She had on some
>outfit from Sex or someplace that must have cost a couple of hundred
>dollars. She was probably wrong that they weren't real punks, but they
>certainly wouldn't have been real goths. Siouxsie, on the other hand,
>definitely was, and her attitude is characteristic of the attitude that
>real goths have always had. To see no difference or -- worse yet -- to
>think that there should be no difference between an exquisite black
>velvet dress and a T-shirt and jeans is like feeling the same about the
>Sisters of Mercy and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
hey! did you, like, read that in the GOTHIC ROCK book? <snicker>
honey - have you ever seen a picture of a "real goth"? goth came from
punk, sweetheart. kids weren't dropping $500 dollars on velvet capes
because *their* mommies didn't give *them* money.
>Many posts have complained about being judged by other goths when they
>go to nightclubs. It is sad but not surprising that their authors
>aren't in the habit of being judged, or perhaps they avoid such
>situations as much as possible. The problem with this is in deciding to
>be goths in the first place, they are already judging mainstream society
>-- represented by sports, parents, school, Samurais, Dockers, etc. -- to
>be unacceptable, aesthetically unacceptable, to be specific. That is
>the fatal first step, though. Once you step into a world that's
>supposed to be better than the hated suburbs, you have to accept being
>judged on the same basis. The fact that their rejection of the trailer
>parks they grew up in does not grant them access to the most desirable
>nightclubs seems downright unegalitarian.
people here seem to have enough friends, and no trouble getting into
clubs...and who is doing the judging? people like you? i hate to
tell you this, but purely superficial glamour-goths are in the
minority these days. A *subculture* as a whole can't choose to
exclude people; only people, small cliques, can do that, and most
people here probably would not want to be your friend anyway.
> Some people are not
>attractive, and no amount of in-group paraphernalia can make them so.
>You can wear ankhs and Eyes of Horus till you jingle, but if you are a
>fat tub of lard, one, keep yourself decently covered; and two, don't
>expect to get any, and please don't try. Do everyone a favor and lose
>some weight. This substitution of totems for good aesthetic choices has
>dealt a near-death blow to the S/M community, at least in Seattle, where
>the perverts are ugly and not afraid to flaunt it.
some people will never be bombshells, this is true, and some people
just can't fucking dress...(are you offering your services? image
consulting?) and yes, i know some really ugly S&M people - but you
can't stop anyone from wearing whatever they want unless you start a
secret club and don't let them into your treehouse. if seeing them
bothers you so much, don't go out.
>Another point: Regardless of whatever merit drugs may or may not have,
>you can't be a goth without them. The best goths I've known have been
>heavy users. Nothing says "convention nerd" like a teetotaling attitude
>towards drugs. It shows that you really believed what you heard in 8th-
>grade gifted about channeling your rebellion into a productive outlet.
>You may as well wear a button that says "Dare To Be Different."
>Just as gambling is the simplest, most concise form of risk taking,
>drugs provide the vivid experiences and danger that build character and
>burn off the emotional baby fat. Also, enduring the vagaries of drug
>distribution will make it so you don't have to _pretend_ to be jaded and
>cynical.
uh...yeah. buying heroin from the store where you buy your music is
*so* hardcore. *what* danger? what are you *talking* about? drugs
have their good points and their bad points but none of their points
are "necessary" to be a goth. as if i even need to say this.
>Goths are band members and nightclub people, concerned with fashion,
>music, and sex. They're junkies and DJs and strippers and barhoppers.
>They're cool and work at it. Net.goths are little more than fans of
>real goths. They're consumers of the music and the scene that has been
>produced by the real goths. They're not cool and take offense at the
>thought that it matters.
Not all goths are as superficial as you and your friends (at least,
the way you portray your friends)
once again, matters to who? there are probably more net-goths than
non- in your area. and they are probably smarter than you and your
wacky little friends. Junkies and barhoppers, cool...it's nice to
have diverse friends but are these the people you hang out with all
the time? you must be the most literate one of your crowd, which kind
of makes me worry.
>For those of you willing to try, come out and make us want you. For
>those of you who aren't, quit complaining. Shut up and stay in the
>hospitality suite of whatever convention you crawled out of. There you
>will be accepted and certainly won't be any more repulsive than the
>people around you.
>
*sigh* whatever..
can i, like, be you?.
how old *are* you anyway, miss ".edu"? who made you a gothic
princess? your idea of the "pinnacle of gothdom" is probably drinking
red wine with the blood of the the guy from Rosetta Stone, or
something equally cliche, poseur-y and just plain pathetic.
i know i just posted something in support of kiddie goths, and for all
of you youngsters, this is how *not* to act if you want people who
have actually been goths for more than 6 months to like you. :)
What a dumb post. i can't believe i even bothered to reply, except
that people like you really annoy me. and you're usually ugly, too.
lovelisa :)
Lisa Kellner
oh, i forgot, miss sanelson -
ps. If you don't subscribe to "Propaganda" already, you should. i
think you'd really enjoy it.
;)
lovelisa :)
Moriarty
In article <4pklrd$1...@larry.rice.edu>, Sande wrote:
>From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>
>
>
>Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
>Pharmacy
>226-5705
>sne...@u.washington.edu
>
>
>
>
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>lXs
>
Alright, now, fun's fun, but don't go harassing her... you don't have to
agree with her, but you can give the Bill of Rights a chance before you start
placing Domino's orders from her phone number...
It's nice to be nice, so c'mon... be nice...
Yours, in Nice,
-(The Nice)Moriarty
Moriarty
In article <4pklrd$1...@larry.rice.edu>, Sande wrote:
>From the student directory at U.washington.edu:
>
>
>
>Serene Adair Nelson-Martinez
>Fifth Year
>Pharmacy
>sne...@u.washington.edu
Alright, now, fun's fun, but don't go harassing her... you don't have to
agree with her, but you can give the Bill of Rights a chance before you start
placing Domino's orders from her phone number...
It's nice to be nice, so c'mon... be nice...
Yours, in Nice,
-(The Nice)Moriarty
>
>
>
>
>
>lXs
>