C7 - Band Announcement -COIL
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
******** New York City, August 17-19, 2001 *********
*********** http://www.convergence7.com ************
****** 7 days left to buy tickets for $70.00 ******
(please notice, we have pushed the
$70. ticket deadline back a week)
The Organizers of Convergence 7 are proud to announce that
Coil will be one of the distinguished bands performing for
you this August.
Dark, chaotic, perverse, and innovative - Coil has been
around since the early 1980's and has restlessly pioneered
all manner of electronic and esoteric music through the
years. Their performance for Convergence 7 will surely be
unlike anything most attendees have ever experienced; this
will be their first-ever performance in North America.
Founded by Peter Christopherson of Throbbing Gristle and
John Balance (both Psychic TV alumni), Coil is the distilled
elixir of everything which is taboo and mind-bending. Wildly
eclectic with regards to musical elements, their music is the
soundtrack to dreams of blood, secret gods, mad inventions,
forbidden lusts, cosmic rituals, alchemical delerium, and
magicks unearthed.
Please check out some of the amazing sounds of Coil on our
website: http://www.convergence7.com/coil.html
In case you missed it, the fabulous other bands who have
been selected to play Convergence 7 are:
SNOG - http://www.convergence7.com/snog.html
Claire Voyant - http://www.convergence7.com/clairevoyant.html
Neurepublik - http://www.convergence7.com/neurepublik.html
Deep Red - http://www.convergence7.com/deepred.html
(more bands to be announced very soon)
It's getting close, and the excitement is overwhelming!
--Carrin (aka: Sacred ... creepy and altogether kooky)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ www.carrin.org ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ www.convergence7.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Blu
Three words:
Bigger.
Faster.
More.
Sheryl Kirby
Nah, it's more like "Nobody's buying tickets and we've gotta make some money
to cover our asses, so let's bring in a band with a guaranteed draw even
though they're not a goth band and have little appeal to our supposed target
audience."
Coil fans are desperate enough to pay $60 - $80 to see the band; even if it
means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only using
it to see Coil. They've never played live in North America, and only once or
twice in the UK over the past 20 years or so. There are enough people that
would pay that much to see them, that the necessity of attracting folks from
alt.gothic is now negligible.
But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
Sheryl
--
I am tired, and we are tired, of being sold a packaged lifestyle, when all
that is actually for sale is a goddamned double-double and a snack.
http://www.toronto-underground.com
A web directory for the rest of us.
Blu
>though they're not a goth band and have little appeal to our supposed target
>audience."
>But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
>alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
Doh, I didnt see that at first but damn, I think you're right. By god, you are
a wise woman! Its amazing the perspective experience puts on things.
---
StarVox: http://www.starvox.net
Goth/Industrial Music Zine
Bryen193
>Coil fans are desperate enough to pay $60 - $80 to see the band; even if it
>means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only using
>it to see Coil.
Hey! I resemble that remark....
++++ Once I looked at the Starres and they were all Blood ++++
++++ http://www.angelfire.com/80s/ashenthorn/index.html ++++
RazorJAK, the Once & Future Crankygoth
<she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>Blu wrote:
>>
>> Three words:
>>
>> Bigger.
>> Faster.
>> More.
>
>Nah, it's more like "Nobody's buying tickets and we've gotta make some money
>to cover our asses, so let's bring in a band with a guaranteed draw even
>though they're not a goth band and have little appeal to our supposed target
>audience."
>
>Coil fans are desperate enough to pay $60 - $80 to see the band; even if it
>means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only using
>it to see Coil. They've never played live in North America, and only once or
>twice in the UK over the past 20 years or so. There are enough people that
>would pay that much to see them, that the necessity of attracting folks from
>alt.gothic is now negligible.
>
>But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
>alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
Sheryl? Would you please stop channeling me when you type? :-)
I was about to post the very same thing before your post came through.
I said pretty much the same thing on the wnygoth list when the
announcement that COIL was playing hit our list.
RazorJAK
--
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank
her.
--
624 of 4057 in the Sigfile O' Doom
--
http://www.pagans.org/~razorjak
ICQ 5300005 ~~~ AIM, YAHOO MSN & IRC RazorJAK
remove my CODPIECE to email me
cr...@cornell.edu
<she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
>alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
>
>Sheryl
>--
Well, if you wanted it to be all about you, maybe you should have
bought tickets instead of indulging in a stupid little boycott because
you happen to not like one of the promoters involved. It was the
antis and the factions who made it not about the people, when they
arranged to try to split people into different venues and events
rather than bring them together.
As for 'Coil not a goth band' I'm surprised that you of all people
would say that. Because damn, Masochistic Religion, now they were
sooooo goth.
- Carrie
Michael Johnson
>Sheryl Kirby <she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>>to cover our asses, so let's bring in a band with a guaranteed draw even
>>though they're not a goth band and have little appeal to our supposed target
>>audience."
>>But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
>>alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
>Doh, I didnt see that at first but damn, I think you're right. By god, you are
>a wise woman! Its amazing the perspective experience puts on things.
Now, I *like* Coil.
And, while it's true that they've never have been 'a goth band' as
such, a great deal of their stuff dovetails pretty neatly with the
goth aesthetic. I think Coil *do*, broadly speaking, have the right
kind of appeal for a goth event.
But...
Coil have a *massive* following. Their fan-base is, I would hazard,
plenty big enough to sell out C7's main venue by itself. And this
fan-base will inevitably include a large number of people who'll
neither know nor care about Convergence; they'll neither know nor care
about goth in general, or net.goth in particular.
They'll just see a Coil show - and they'll think, 'Wahey! Coil are
playing! Get in there!'
Where is this going to leave the people for whom Convergence is
supposedly organised - the net.goths?
Effectively shut out of their own event, I fear.
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions > 1995 - 2001 > http://www.nemesis.to
They think it's all over. It is now!
Scott Crawford
In article <3B542FFF...@stainedproductions.com>, Sheryl Kirby
<she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
> Nah, it's more like "Nobody's buying tickets and we've gotta make some money
> to cover our asses, so let's bring in a band with a guaranteed draw even
> though they're not a goth band and have little appeal to our supposed target
> audience."
You might be right on the "nobody's buying tickets" part (time will tell,
I suppose...), but I think you're on crack if you're serious about the
"little appeal to our supposed target audience" part. I mean, hot damn.
Coil? Sorry, Sheryl, but "you a basehead" if you don't think goths give a
shit about Coil. I've known TONS of goths who dig 'em.
If this goes down as announced, about the only thing that could top it for
me (while still being within the "supposed target audience" realm) would
be an Xmal Deutschland reunion. Kudos go out to the C7 Committee if they
DO pull this off.
Now, here's where this gets tricky...as of right now, Coil are "confirmed"
to play their first-ever North American show, but, as many of us have
found out over the years, shit happens when it comes to bands from other
countries entering ours, especially for the first time. Anyone from the
Pet Shop Boys to Godflesh to New Model Army have had landing troubles at
one point or another, sometimes well in advance of an event, sometimes on
the day of travel. Coil (for a number of reasons) seem like prime
candidates for these sort of troubles.
After reading the announcement, I saw this on the "offline ticketing" form
(http://www.convergence7.com/alternativeticketing.html) for C7:
"Please note, there are NO REFUNDS or exchanges for your C7 ticket. All
sales are final. There will be no exceptions."
With this policy in place, you folks on the C7 committee better be
99.99999% sure that you can deliver on this Coil thing, or there will be a
reckoning, regardless of what disclaimers or caveats you may already have
in place.
You'll have at least three groups of people howling for your heads on sticks:
1. People who were fence-sitting on attending before this announcement.
2. People who were going to be in town, but weren't planning to play your
reindeer games at all before this announcement.
3. Those people that Sheryl mentioned, who would buy tickets JUST to see
Coil. Like it or not, Convergence is an open-to-the-public event, and
they've got just as much of a right to attend as any of you who've
attended every C*.
I don't know about you guys, but I ESPECIALLY wouldn't want to be on the
receiving end of the wrath of a bunch of Coil fans. >:D
I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest two "good faith" measures
here, to keep this whole thing from spiralling out of control.
First, I'd like to suggest that the C7 committee amend their ticketing
policy to allow refunds on tickets purchased from this date (07/18/01)
onward, if Coil don't appear for ANY reason. If you're not having trouble
selling tickets, and if Coil are indeed completely, legally confirmed,
this amendment to your policy should carry little (if any) risk at all,
and it's completely fair to those who bought tickets prior to the Coil
announcement (as they were already sold on the event, without Coil's
involvement).
Second, I'd love to see something in writing from U.S. Customs (or
whoever's responsible for this sort of thing) posted on the C7 site,
saying that Coil are cleared to land and perform here. Scans of some
documents will do just fine.
Given the amount of hubbub surrounding this Convergence already, I think
that those two suggestions are fair and reasonable. I also think that
they'll go a long way toward not only improving attendance at C7, but
morale toward the event as well.
If anyone has any questions regarding my suggestions (or anything else
C7-related, including my availability for pudding wrestling matches), they
can feel free to email me at su...@mybigblackcock.com.
Sincerely,
Scott Goddamn Crawford
Webmaster, My Big, Black Cock (and still YOUR CWF Champeen!)
http://www.mybigblackcock.com/
Bryen193
>You might be right on the "nobody's buying tickets" part (time will tell,
>I suppose...), but I think you're on crack if you're serious about the
>"little appeal to our supposed target audience" part. I mean, hot damn.
>Coil? Sorry, Sheryl, but "you a basehead" if you don't think goths give a
>shit about Coil. I've known TONS of goths who dig 'em.
...but their fan base consists mostly of non-goths. The Coil email list is
already awash with people making mocking fun of the idea of Coil playing a
"goth" social event. At this point, they may as well change the name of the
thing from "Convergence 7" to "North American Coil Gig 1".
Sheryl Kirby
> Well, if you wanted it to be all about you, maybe you should have
> bought tickets instead of indulging in a stupid little boycott because
> you happen to not like one of the promoters involved. It was the
> antis and the factions who made it not about the people, when they
> arranged to try to split people into different venues and events
> rather than bring them together.
Huh??? Perhaps we're having some pronoun trouble here... I'm hoping that "you"
is a collective alt.gothic "you" because I personally had nothing to do with
boycotts, antis, factions or splits of any kind. I wasn't on alt.gothic for an
18 month period that included the vote for C7. I didn't vote at all, nor did I
participate in any sort of slagging, boycott or fiendish plan to throw a
wrench into the works. In fact, at one point recently when complaints arose
over the ticket price, I even stood up for them.
> As for 'Coil not a goth band' I'm surprised that you of all people
> would say that. Because damn, Masochistic Religion, now they were
> sooooo goth.
If you're going to this show expecting "Tainted Love" and "Windowpane" you're
going to be *sadly* disappointed. Coil's current works are *extremely*
oriented to the ambient, experimental electronic vein.
And as for Masochistic Religion, they're a Toronto icon that just happen to
have a wacky, self-deprecating sense of humour. If you couldn't get the joke,
that's not my fault.
Sheryl Kirby
> Sheryl? Would you please stop channeling me when you type? :-)
>
> I was about to post the very same thing before your post came through.
> I said pretty much the same thing on the wnygoth list when the
> announcement that COIL was playing hit our list.
Great minds baby, great minds.
As a matter of fact, though, hearing through Greg the feedback coming off the
Coil mailing list, I may be wrong. From the sounds of it, not many die-hard
fans *are* that willing to shell out the cash for a weekend pass just to see
the band. Especially when they've pretty much been promised a Coil tour in the
next year or so. It may *not* be the great coup it was expected to be, after
all.
Joseph Max
Michael Johnson wrote:
>
> Now, I *like* Coil.
>
> And, while it's true that they've never have been 'a goth band' as
> such, a great deal of their stuff dovetails pretty neatly with the
> goth aesthetic. I think Coil *do*, broadly speaking, have the right
> kind of appeal for a goth event.
>
> But...
>
> Coil have a *massive* following. Their fan-base is, I would hazard,
> plenty big enough to sell out C7's main venue by itself. And this
> fan-base will inevitably include a large number of people who'll
> neither know nor care about Convergence; they'll neither know nor care
> about goth in general, or net.goth in particular.
>
> They'll just see a Coil show - and they'll think, 'Wahey! Coil are
> playing! Get in there!'
>
> Where is this going to leave the people for whom Convergence is
> supposedly organised - the net.goths?
>
> Effectively shut out of their own event, I fear.
The solution is very simple -- BUY YOUR TICKETS NOW. If some people in the
net.goth community have refrained from buying tickets to the event that has been
organized for them, because they couldn't see through the OBVIOUS bullshit and
distortions of the C7 committee's detractors, who's fault is that?
See the bed? They made it. Lie down...
- J:.M:.555
A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging
their prejudices.
-- William James
RazorJAK, the Once & Future Crankygoth
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:30:02 GMT, Sheryl Kirby
><she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>
>
>>But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
>>alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
>>
>>Sheryl
>>--
>
>
>Well, if you wanted it to be all about you, maybe you should have
>bought tickets instead of indulging in a stupid little boycott because
>you happen to not like one of the promoters involved.
Not all who are boycotting the events are doing so just because they
hate Cliff. Some of us used to be some of the more vocal defenders of
the NYC bid until it was shown just how they were doing things.
nothing like the whole bait and switch ... retracting statements ...
promising one thing and then giving another
Honestly, if it wasn't for someone who has talked to the band
already, I thought COIL would be a "Oh, yeah they were supposed to
play but they cancelled the day of the show."
Looks like the gig is actually legit ( surprise surprise )
Sad that they had to pull that trump card in order to sell tickets.
Proving they think that Convergence is about the music and not about
the people.
>It was the antis and the factions who made it not about the people,
>when they arranged to try to split people into different venues and
>events rather than bring them together.
OH PLEASE! The fact that the comittee decided to not sell individual
tickets for seperate days, started the ticket price at so much more
than any other convergence ( after saying they'd be able to get a good
price because of all their so-called connections ) switch hotels to an
even more expensive one, etc etc etc is what prompted the C7-Rescue
people ( whom I'm not a member of - I'm only speaking for myself - not
as one of them ) to post about alternative hotel bookings than the 5
star one the commiteee chose, daytime events, and finally alternative
night events when it started being clear that C7 wasn't panning out at
all.
The C7 that the commitee proposed started falling apart WAY before the
"factions" started popping up.
>As for 'Coil not a goth band' I'm surprised that you of all people
>would say that. Because damn, Masochistic Religion, now they were
>sooooo goth.
Obviously someone who didn't get the joke at C4.
Masochistic Religion TRY to be a hokey and cornball as they can.
They were booked as a joke. Kinda tongue in cheek for the pityfuck
that the opriginal Convergence people had to endure by having Valor's
band play.
RazorJAK
--
Freshest if eaten before date on carton.
--
1595 of 4057 in the Sigfile O' Doom
Sheryl Kirby
> You might be right on the "nobody's buying tickets" part (time will tell,
> I suppose...), but I think you're on crack if you're serious about the
> "little appeal to our supposed target audience" part. I mean, hot damn.
> Coil? Sorry, Sheryl, but "you a basehead" if you don't think goths give a
> shit about Coil. I've known TONS of goths who dig 'em.
Have you heard any of their new stuff? See Bryen's reply to your post as well.
The word is they'll be promoting the new album; they're not interested in
doing the old stuff (no "Tained Love" no "Windowpane"...). There may be some
Goths who are also into the ambient electronic thing, but for the most part, I
don't think it's going to be appreciated.
> Second, I'd love to see something in writing from U.S. Customs (or
> whoever's responsible for this sort of thing) posted on the C7 site,
> saying that Coil are cleared to land and perform here. Scans of some
> documents will do just fine.
I have no idea if the US system for this at all similar to the Canadian
process, I've heard it's actually *more* strict and detailed, but based on the
Canadian process... The "immigration" paperwork is done and issued ahead of
time, but the band can still be stopped while entering the country and refused
entry. Anything and everything can be justification... We had a band not get
through Canadian customs because the guitarist had a shoplifting charge from
when he was twelve. (And again, my experience has been that US customs is even
stricter than its Canadian counterpart.)
My point... while there is preliminary paperwork that can be shown if
necessary, the C7 committee really has no control over what happens when the
band arrives and goes through the borders, and as such cannot realistically
make a guarantee that the band will get through customs and immigration
without hassle. I'll definitely stand up for them on that count, because even
if they've completed all the paperwork and paid all the necessary fees, the
customs and immigration stuff at the port of entry is really beyond their
control.
50 Ft Queenie
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:30:02 GMT, Sheryl Kirby
> <she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>
> >But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
> >alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
> >
> >Sheryl
> >--
>
> Well, if you wanted it to be all about you, maybe you should have
> bought tickets instead of indulging in a stupid little boycott because
> you happen to not like one of the promoters involved.
This is not just about people "not liking"
Cliff. This is about Cliff behaving badly in
public and engaging in unprofessional
conduct.
It was the
> antis and the factions who made it not about the people, when they
> arranged to try to split people into different venues and events
> rather than bring them together.
>
> As for 'Coil not a goth band' I'm surprised that you of all people
> would say that. Because damn, Masochistic Religion, now they were
> sooooo goth.
Masochistic Religion were a staple in the
Toronto goth scene for a long time. Their
locals shows were always well attended by
People In Black. More than one reviewer
compared them to The Swans, who had a loyal
goth following last I checked.
Their performance at C4 was not their best.
That was not the fault of any of the
organizers. I also don't think that many of
the C4 attendees "got" MR. They're not
supposed to be taken very seriously.
Steph
--
Beside the eternal why, there is a yes, and a
yes, and a yes!
- E.M. Forster, A Room with a View
Trystan L. Bass
> Coil have a *massive* following. Their fan-base is, I would hazard,
> plenty big enough to sell out C7's main venue by itself. And this
> fan-base will inevitably include a large number of people who'll
> neither know nor care about Convergence; they'll neither know nor care
> about goth in general, or net.goth in particular.
>
> They'll just see a Coil show - and they'll think, 'Wahey! Coil are
> playing! Get in there!'
>
> Where is this going to leave the people for whom Convergence is
> supposedly organised - the net.goths?
>
> Effectively shut out of their own event, I fear.
Nobody's shut out -- you just have to buy a ticket. You could have bought a
ticket back in May or June (when they were cheaper too). You had plenty of
advance notice.
And if you didn't already buy a ticket, & they all disappear in the next few
days because of the Coil announcement, you only have yourself to blame for
shutting *yourself* out of Convergence.
So what if ppl want to come for the bands? "It's not about the bands," the
grouchy nothing-can-please-us alt.gothic old folks complain. Well,
apparently this year, it's not about the people either. It's been about one
petty little faction of ppl bitching & moaning about the elected C7 staff &
doing everything they can to thwart the real Convergence from happening.
"We're trying to help" the so-called rescue squad squeals! Sure, by
scheduling events directly in competition with the official C7 events (which
have been a year in the making & announced on the website for ages). How can
that possibly help?
The supposed rescue squad are the ones trying to break Convergence up into
little cliques. Wasn't the whole point of Convergence to "converge" & come
together? Noooo, divergence is more to their tastes.
The real Convergence staff tried to give the community a gift. A wonderful
event, full of fun & surprises, with plenty of spaces for ppl to socialize.
We brought in 2 bigger name bands bec. we thot you deserved something really
special.
After all, you asked us to create this event for you. Of course, we didn't
know then that, while a large majority of you were happy to vote for us, a
whiney little group of you would work against us at every turn.
Those who have supported us from the beginning have bought their tickets
already & will get a great treat of seeing Coil & Snog, in addition to
enjoying the Absinthe Tea, the 2 fashion shows, the Cloisters Picnic, the
Goblin Market, the Darkside Panels, etc.
Those who've spent all this time harassing us.... well, I don't give a rat's
ass if you don't get tickets. I'd rather see Coil fans snap 'em up -- at
least they'll appreciate the hard work we've done.
--T.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Trystan L. Bass @->--- www.toreadors.com
gothic martha stewart & all-around crafty chick
C7 fashion show -- www.convergence7.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Daednu
> As a matter of fact, though, hearing through Greg the feedback coming off the
> Coil mailing list, I may be wrong. From the sounds of it, not many die-hard
> fans *are* that willing to shell out the cash for a weekend pass just to see
> the band. Especially when they've pretty much been promised a Coil tour in the
> next year or so. It may *not* be the great coup it was expected to be, after
> all.
Great coup?
Geeze...and all this time I thought we were working our butts off to put
together a fun event for netgoths. I had no idea it was supposed to be a
great coup. I thought that was the opposite of what it was supposed to
be.
I suppose we disappoint then.
~Daednu
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands -e.e. cummings ~
~ They are love's last gifts; bring flowers, pale flowers. ~
~ http://www.velvet.net/~daednu/ ~
~ http://www.strangeparenting.com ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daednu
> Now, here's where this gets tricky...as of right now, Coil are "confirmed"
> to play their first-ever North American show, but, as many of us have
> found out over the years, shit happens when it comes to bands from other
> countries entering ours, especially for the first time. Anyone from the
> Pet Shop Boys to Godflesh to New Model Army have had landing troubles at
> one point or another, sometimes well in advance of an event, sometimes on
> the day of travel. Coil (for a number of reasons) seem like prime
> candidates for these sort of troubles.
True, but it really helps to know the US immigration system from the
inside out. And back again. It also helps having people in on the Visa
situation who've been dealing with the INS for several years. ;)
Daednu
> Have you heard any of their new stuff? See Bryen's reply to your post as well.
> The word is they'll be promoting the new album; they're not interested in
> doing the old stuff (no "Tained Love" no "Windowpane"...). There may be some
> Goths who are also into the ambient electronic thing, but for the most part, I
> don't think it's going to be appreciated.
To be honest, I think that's a really silly argument. The number of
goths into electronic music is absolutely huge.
> I have no idea if the US system for this at all similar to the Canadian
> process, I've heard it's actually *more* strict and detailed, but based on the
> Canadian process...
I have extensive experience with the US system.
> The "immigration" paperwork is done and issued ahead of
> time, but the band can still be stopped while entering the country and refused
> entry. Anything and everything can be justification... We had a band not get
> through Canadian customs because the guitarist had a shoplifting charge from
> when he was twelve. (And again, my experience has been that US customs is even
> stricter than its Canadian counterpart.)
I can't say that one is stricter than the other. They both have their
sticking points and loop holes. However prior convictions or even
charges is a HUGE point that you check out ahead of time. Even though it
may sound silly, but all details like that have to be taken into
account.
Sheryl Kirby
> Great coup?
> Geeze...and all this time I thought we were working our butts off to put
> together a fun event for netgoths. I had no idea it was supposed to be a
> great coup. I thought that was the opposite of what it was supposed to
> be.
> I suppose we disappoint then.
From www.dictionary.com See reference #1.
coup (k)
n. pl. coups (kz)
1.A brilliantly executed stratagem; a triumph.
2.
a.A coup d'état.
b.A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover: a
boardroom coup.
3.Among certain Native American peoples, a feat of bravery performed in
battle, especially the touching of an enemy's body
without causing injury.
Are you saying you *don't* intend for the Coil performance to be triumphant?
Or that booking them for their first ever North American appearance didn't
take some brilliant execution? Are you sure you really want them there at
all??
Sheryl Kirby
> Sheryl Kirby wrote:
> > Have you heard any of their new stuff? See Bryen's reply to your post as well.
> > The word is they'll be promoting the new album; they're not interested in
> > doing the old stuff (no "Tained Love" no "Windowpane"...). There may be some
> > Goths who are also into the ambient electronic thing, but for the most part, I
> > don't think it's going to be appreciated.
>
> To be honest, I think that's a really silly argument. The number of
> goths into electronic music is absolutely huge.
Maybe where you are. A lot of places that's not the case. I've presented Goth
events and electronic events and the crossover is pretty slim up here. And
don't forget, there are many different *types* of electronic music. The stuff
Coil is doing now is pretty obscure.
> I can't say that one is stricter than the other. They both have their
> sticking points and loop holes. However prior convictions or even
> charges is a HUGE point that you check out ahead of time. Even though it
> may sound silly, but all details like that have to be taken into
> account.
You mean, all the details you *can* take into account, until the time that
they actually walk through customs, at which point everything is up to the
discretion of the customs officer.
Rachael
>> Coil? Sorry, Sheryl, but "you a basehead" if you don't think goths
>> give a shit about Coil. I've known TONS of goths who dig 'em.
>
> ...but their fan base consists mostly of non-goths. The Coil email
> list is already awash with people making mocking fun of the idea of
> Coil playing a "goth" social event.
When Coil did the Wave-Gotik-Treffen in June as one of the headliners
(on Saturday night) their concert was very successful and plenty of
goths did enjoy it (or at least were struck with amazement). But maybe
the German scene is much more oriented towards electronica/industrial.
(Although the weekly playlists seem to indicate that the very same
holds true for US goth nights.)
Rachael
listening to The Magnetic Fields
and not present at all in a.g
--
"Suavia musae... me delectant, me deiciunt, me consolantur."
Follow me... - currently virtually homeless, sorry, looking for new hp -
Rachael...@gmx.net - mails currently irregularly downloaded -
Daednu
> Are you saying you *don't* intend for the Coil performance to be triumphant?
> Or that booking them for their first ever North American appearance didn't
> take some brilliant execution? Are you sure you really want them there at
> all??
You could analyse my words to death and the attribute things I never
thought, felt, said or even dreamed of. OR you could just take the gist
of what I was saying.
Daednu
> Maybe where you are. A lot of places that's not the case. I've presented Goth
> events and electronic events and the crossover is pretty slim up here. And
> don't forget, there are many different *types* of electronic music. The stuff
> Coil is doing now is pretty obscure.
I've been around in a lot of places.
I'm figuring if even Ottawa has a night dedicated to it, surely there
are more. Plus I've seen/heard so many goths go on about how this music
is really "their thing".
> You mean, all the details you *can* take into account, until the time that
> they actually walk through customs, at which point everything is up to the
> discretion of the customs officer.
Well, yes and no. They need proper grounds to turn you back. If you've
done everything absolutely properly, they can't turn you back. Even
customs need to report back to someone about their actions.
Kathleen Latzoni
>>Sheryl Kirby <she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
>
>>>to cover our asses, so let's bring in a band with a guaranteed draw even
target
>>>audience."
>
<...>
>Now, I *like* Coil.
>
>And, while it's true that they've never have been 'a goth band' as
>such, a great deal of their stuff dovetails pretty neatly with the
>goth aesthetic. I think Coil *do*, broadly speaking, have the right
>kind of appeal for a goth event.
>
Hm... maybe Sheryl could explain more clearly what she means, when she says
that Coil is "not a goth band"?
- do you mean "gothic rock" as opposed to "industrial/experimental/noise/et
al" [which a lot of people whom I would consider "goths" do listen to]
- do you mean that, in yr opinion, "goths" don't make up a large enough
percentage of their fan base?
- do you mean they don't have enough fans who are *net* goths; or who post
to
a.g.* ; or some other subset?
- or is it just those fsckin' cow suits???
If anyone feels like pointing me to a URL where I can get a concise
definition
of the phrase "Goth Band", that would save some time, I suppose...
>But...
>
>Coil have a *massive* following. Their fan-base is, I would hazard,
>plenty big enough to sell out C7's main venue by itself. And this
>fan-base will inevitably include a large number of people who'll
>neither know nor care about Convergence; they'll neither know nor care
>about goth in general, or net.goth in particular.
>
>They'll just see a Coil show - and they'll think, 'Wahey! Coil are
>playing! Get in there!'
>
>Where is this going to leave the people for whom Convergence is
>supposedly organised - the net.goths?
>
>Effectively shut out of their own event, I fear.
>
>
I can see how this might be a problem; my only question is, haven't the
tickets been on sale since late April / early May, or somesuch? [Not being
on
the committee, I don't remember the exact date...] It seems to me that
anyone
who might complain about being "shut out" by Coil fans, had 2-3 months to
buy
a ticket before Coil was even announced.
Or, is your concern more that the Invading Ungoth Coil Fans <:) are going to
attend *only* that show, and blow off the rest of the official events?
...And
in that case, wouldn't that be a feature rather than a bug?
Just in case there is somebody who really wanted the C7NYC experience, but
now
can't attend the official events b/c the Coil droogies pushed hir out of the
ticket line... show up anyhow; there's plenty of unofficial stuff going on
that weekend, too. You can even come out to Bklyn, and Kev & I will take you
to some botanicas and make wholegrain pancakes, or something.
I've also heard about a really cool craft-supply shopping trip on that
Friday
afternoon... :)
Yrs,
Kathy L.
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Sheryl Kirby
> > You mean, all the details you *can* take into account, until the time that
> > they actually walk through customs, at which point everything is up to the
> > discretion of the customs officer.
>
> Well, yes and no. They need proper grounds to turn you back. If you've
> done everything absolutely properly, they can't turn you back. Even
> customs need to report back to someone about their actions.
ROTFLMAO!!! You're funny. You might want to consider a career in stand-up
comedy, cause that has me in stitches.
Daednu
> ROTFLMAO!!! You're funny. You might want to consider a career in stand-up
> comedy, cause that has me in stitches.
Whatever.
I've been there.
Sheryl Kirby
> Hm... maybe Sheryl could explain more clearly what she means, when she says
> that Coil is "not a goth band"?
>
> - do you mean "gothic rock" as opposed to "industrial/experimental/noise/et
> al" [which a lot of people whom I would consider "goths" do listen to]
>
> - do you mean that, in yr opinion, "goths" don't make up a large enough
> percentage of their fan base?
>
> - do you mean they don't have enough fans who are *net* goths; or who post
> to
> a.g.* ; or some other subset?
>
> - or is it just those fsckin' cow suits???
I'm not arguing the point that there are Goths that like Coil. However, I
think that the majority of their fan-base are most decidely "not-goth". Over
the years they have done lots of music that definitely had an appeal to a
certain sub-set, as did other bands like Current 93, Legendary Pink Dots, etc.
However, the most recent work is extremely ambient experimental, is very
different from their earlier work and is unlikely to have a broad appeal to
people attending an event that, up until this point, was about Goths.
So, to try and specifically answer the rest of your questions; no, I don't
think that goths make up a large percentage of their *current* fan base. Of
the people I know who are considering attending C7 to see Coil, only one of
them could be considered goth. When we did a Coil tribute night here in
Toronto last year, only about 10% of the people that showed up looked at all
goth, although many of them *had been* into the Goth scene at some point.
And... um... moo. :)
> >Effectively shut out of their own event, I fear.
> >
> >
>
> I can see how this might be a problem; my only question is, haven't the
> tickets been on sale since late April / early May, or somesuch? [Not being
> on
> the committee, I don't remember the exact date...] It seems to me that
> anyone
> who might complain about being "shut out" by Coil fans, had 2-3 months to
> buy
> a ticket before Coil was even announced.
Uncle Nemesis can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read his comment as being
more of a psychological "shut-out" than a literal one.
> Or, is your concern more that the Invading Ungoth Coil Fans <:) are going to
> attend *only* that show, and blow off the rest of the official events?
> ...And
> in that case, wouldn't that be a feature rather than a bug?
From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
the rest of the official events is definitely the plan. It may or may not be a
good thing, depending on whether the various events were booked with minimum
attendance numbers or minimum bar/food sales included in the contracts.
Scott Crawford
> I have extensive experience with the US system.
Well...show us the money!
Coil are (obviously) on record as saying the gig will happen, on their web
site. (although someone might want to tell them that it's "Irving" Plaza,
not "Irvine", heh...), so this is definitely a few steps past "I'll
believe it when I see it" status.
Unless there are rules against posting the paperwork (which there
shouldn't be...they're a matter of public record...), let's see 'em! If
you want to black out any financial details involved, hell, do that, but
for a number of reasons, some of us would like a bit more proof that this
is indeed on.
No comment on my "refund" suggestion yet? I mean, sure, if the committee
wants to let consumer stupidity run its course, fine, carpe diem, but I
think a show of respect and trust to Convergers would be a much better way
to go.
-S
Sheryl Kirby
>
> Sheryl Kirby wrote:
> > From www.dictionary.com See reference #1.
> <snip>
> > Are you saying you *don't* intend for the Coil performance to be triumphant?
> > Or that booking them for their first ever North American appearance didn't
> > take some brilliant execution? Are you sure you really want them there at
> > all??
>
> You could analyse my words to death and the attribute things I never
> thought, felt, said or even dreamed of. OR you could just take the gist
> of what I was saying.
Likewise, my dear.
Joseph Max
Daednu wrote:
> Sheryl Kirby wrote:
> > ROTFLMAO!!! You're funny. You might want to consider a career in stand-up
> > comedy, cause that has me in stitches.
>
> Whatever.
>
> I've been there
I dunno, D -- the plane could crash carrying the band. They could get
kidnapped by aliens. I mean ANYTHING can happen, ya know...
Can we say "hysterical", children? Can we say "grasping for any excuse"? Sure
we can...
- J:.M:.555
"Invention... does not consist in creating out of the void, but out of
chaos." -- Mary Shelley
Sheryl Kirby
> I dunno, D -- the plane could crash carrying the band. They could get
> kidnapped by aliens. I mean ANYTHING can happen, ya know...
>
> Can we say "hysterical", children? Can we say "grasping for any excuse"? Sure
> we can...
Actually, my excuse at this point is just that it's so terribly amusing to
watch you come on here and throw your huffy little tantrums.
Sheryl
(who knows from her own humbled first-hand experience that it's a bad scene
for Convergence organizers to get pissy on alt.gothic)
Michael Johnson
>Uncle Nemesis can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read his comment as being
>more of a psychological "shut-out" than a literal one.
Um, yes, actually. In fact, I was originally going to say something
like 'given the elbow', but I ended up saying 'shut out' because I
thought it would be a little clearer. Well, I got *that* one wrong,
then, didn't I!
As it happens, we had a similar discussion on upg not tooo long ago:
someone suggested booking New Model Army for the Whitby Gothic
Weekend. Good band, quite a few goths like 'em, on the face of it not
a bad idea.
Trouble is, if New Model Army were booked for the Whitby Gothic
Weekend, the relative scale of the band vs. the event would mean the
Whitby Gothic Weekend would immediately default to the New Model Army
Weekend - with a few odd bits of 'goth stuff' tacked on.
Yes, obviously the goths who normally attend the WGW could grab their
tix early, to ensure that a sudden influx of NMA fans would not
*physically* shut them out of the event....but when they actually
arrived in Whitby, they'd find that the event itself had been
radically changed by the one dominating factor of the main band. And
then they might feel that the event just isn't 'for us' any more....
I hypothesise. But you know what I mean (I hope!)
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions > 1995 - 2001 > http://www.nemesis.to
They think it's all over. It is now!
Bryen193
>From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
>the rest of the official events is definitely the plan.
Bingo. I'm a goth, and before 9am this morning, I hadn't given the slightest
thought to attending. Somehow the absinthe tea party, meet and greet, clothing
swap, or whatever had failed to entice me to part with $70 plus travel and
lodging. I think this would apply to non-goth coil fans doubly.
>However, the most recent work is extremely ambient experimental, is very
>different from their earlier work and is unlikely to have a broad appeal to
>people attending an event that, up until this point, was about Goths.
Now here I have to disagree. If some perfect stranger was to ask me what great
"goth" music sounds like, I'd have to point to some recent Coil music
(especially Musick to Play in the Dark Vol II). Their combination of
ingenuity, dark elegance, sinister beauty, appreciation of the bizarre...How
could this fail to go over well at a goth event? It will go over smashingly,
except maybe with a few pirate-costumed ninnies whining for Shitsters
impersonators...
Jodi
>From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
>the rest of the official events is definitely the plan.
I think that this would be an inherent danger of having a band as "big"
as Coil at any Convergence-sort of event (i.e. part of a themed festival
type thingie).
For instance, New Model Army regularly feature in people's Fantasy
Whitby Line-ups, whereas we all know the reality would be a large
proportion of tickets going to people who don't give a stuff about the
rest of the bands and even less about other events/ social elements, and
thus people who go for a combination of the above would miss out.
Coil at C7 is pretty much exactly the same situation. (Except, of
course, that it's actually happening).
Jodi
Who would love to see Coil, but not at Convergence, if that makes any
sense.
I am angry I am ill and I'm as ugly as sin
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
- Magazine, "A Song from Under the Floorboards"
Sheryl Kirby
> Now here I have to disagree. If some perfect stranger was to ask me what great
> "goth" music sounds like, I'd have to point to some recent Coil music
> (especially Musick to Play in the Dark Vol II). Their combination of
> ingenuity, dark elegance, sinister beauty, appreciation of the bizarre...How
> could this fail to go over well at a goth event? It will go over smashingly,
> except maybe with a few pirate-costumed ninnies whining for Shitsters
> impersonators...
I guess it would depend on the ratio of "pirate-costumed ninnies" in
attendance then. But given it's Convergence, isn't it *all about* the pirate
costume? ;)
Sheryl Kirby
> Who would love to see Coil, but not at Convergence, if that makes any
> sense.
Absolutely. I mean, I don't begrudge the C7 committee booking them when they
had the opportunity, it's definitely a coup (in the "triumphant" sense of the
word); one that many promoters across North America having been trying to
achieve for years, myself included.
But I don't think they're an appropriate band for Convergence, exactly for the
reasons you and Uncle Nemesis have alluded to re: New Model Army. It goes back
to the original debate over "what is Convergence really about"? If it's
supposed to be about bringing the people of alt.gothic together, then that
should be the foremost goal of any organizing committee. Booking a band, no
matter how fabulous they are, that would draw a large percentage of people
specifically to see the band, and not partake in the other activities,
essentially alienates the people that the event was supposed to be for in the
first place.
If you don't care about alienating your target audience, then all is well and
good. It just depends on the goals and philosophies of the committee and its
individual members. But at the same time, I've been in the big Convergence
organizer's chair and I know the difficulties and the stress that abounds, and
I know that the financial commitment requires covering your ass. The draw that
Coil will bring in will definitely help to cover some asses.
Joseph Max
> Joseph Max wrote:
>
> > I dunno, D -- the plane could crash carrying the band. They could get
> > kidnapped by aliens. I mean ANYTHING can happen, ya know...
> >
> > Can we say "hysterical", children? Can we say "grasping for any excuse"? Sure
> > we can...
>
> Actually, my excuse at this point is just that it's so terribly amusing to
> watch you come on here and throw your huffy little tantrums.
Call it several months of built up frustration. Glad you're enjoying the show.
> Sheryl
> (who knows from her own humbled first-hand experience that it's a bad scene
> for Convergence organizers to get pissy on alt.gothic)
Oh I get it. Everyone else is supposed to be free to "get pissy", spread
distortion, innuendo and downright lies, while we who are actually doing THE WORK
are supposed to just grin, grease up and bend over...
Maybe it's time for a new "tradition".
My offer still stands. As soon as the distortion, innuendo and downright lies
cease, so will my "pissiness".
- J:.M:.555
"I had all I can stands, and I can't stands n' more!" -- Popeye the Sailor
Trystan L. Bass
> First, I'd like to suggest that the C7 committee amend their ticketing
> policy to allow refunds on tickets purchased from this date (07/18/01)
> onward, if Coil don't appear for ANY reason.
Sorry, but we can't refund money we've already paid to someone else --
namely, the venues. In the very unlikely event that Coil's plane drops into
the Atlantic on their way to NYC, we still have to pay Irving Plaza (among
other venues & vendors). And, being responsible ppl who live up to their
contracts, we would pay them. So there goes your refund money. Anyone who's
worked for volunteer & other nonprofit groups knows refunds are pretty
impossible when you're lucky to break even.
So, if you care about Convergence or just want to see Coil, you buy a ticket
& hope a terrorist (or peeved Cliff-hater) doesn't blow up the venue & the
band doesn't catch the plague on their way to the show. It's just a risk you
take.
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
"RazorJAK, the Once & Future Crankygoth" <razo...@pag-mycodpiece-ans.org>
wrote in message news:77u8ltobsol9subsm...@4ax.com...
> Not all who are boycotting the events are doing so just because they
> hate Cliff. Some of us used to be some of the more vocal defenders of
> the NYC bid until it was shown just how they were doing things.
> nothing like the whole bait and switch ... retracting statements ...
> promising one thing and then giving another
You know what RazorJAK, I don't necessarily remember you being
very supportive for very long. In fact, you've been someone who
has done nothing but complain and and argue since about a month
after we won the bid.
There was no bait and switch . . . shit happens . . . and I every other
Convergence committee has had to make adjustments in their plans.
>
> Honestly, if it wasn't for someone who has talked to the band
> already, I thought COIL would be a "Oh, yeah they were supposed to
> play but they cancelled the day of the show."
>
> Looks like the gig is actually legit ( surprise surprise )
Surprise, surprise . . . You doubted us . . . YET again!
> OH PLEASE! The fact that the comittee decided to not sell individual
> tickets for seperate days, started the ticket price at so much more
> than any other convergence ( after saying they'd be able to get a good
> price because of all their so-called connections ) switch hotels to an
> even more expensive one, etc etc etc is what prompted the C7-Rescue
> people ( whom I'm not a member of - I'm only speaking for myself - not
> as one of them ) to post about alternative hotel bookings than the 5
> star one the commiteee chose, daytime events, and finally alternative
> night events when it started being clear that C7 wasn't panning out at
> all.
blah blah blah
This is repetitious, and nothing you haven't said before. The
fact is . . . we never lost it, we never started to fail miserably
. . . someone said we did, then you told 2 friends, then they
told 2 friends, and so on, and so on.
If you doubt something, and you think for yourself, then you ask
someone who would actually know the truth. Then it's up to you
to either have faith in their word, or not. But you have to ask
first.
-Carrin
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
it
> means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only
using
> it to see Coil. They've never played live in North America, and only once
or
> twice in the UK over the past 20 years or so. There are enough people that
> would pay that much to see them, that the necessity of attracting folks
from
> alt.gothic is now negligible.
<sarcasm> Yep, wow, you're very quick. </sarcasm>
Coil was chosen for many reasons . . . we like them a lot being the
biggest. And whether they are "goth" or not is your personal opinion
. . . Andrew Eldrich doesn't think he's goth -HA! I happen to have an
aweful lot of goth friends who absolutely adore Coil. Luckily, those
friends will be there to get to see an amazing show with me.
>
> But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
> alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
<sarcasm> After all, everyone on a.g has been so supportive of us up
to this point. </sarcasm>
Despite any new rumors that are sure to start flying around amidst the
accusations and absolute untruths that have become standard practice
here . . . we actually still are hosting a truly amazing Convergence,
complete with all kinds of activities and performances that will allow
people who are actually interested in coming together for one event, to
be together, to enjoy the company fo their friends, to support an effort
of hard work by many people who care about making it an amazing event!
Believe it or not, there are a lot of them . . . they just don't whine
all the time.
This may sound kind of bitchy, and for once, I am not holding my tongue.
I'm tired of seeing new and completely unfounded lies on here about
something that I have worked so hard to put together. It belittles not
only my efforts, by the undying dedication of all the other Committee
members who have also sat back and watched it happen.
I'm tired of seeing people who don't even KNOW Cliff, who have never
even met Cliff, who don't even have any facts, even those who have met
him yet still don't have the facts, haven't even bothered to look into
their own minds and find their own opinions, rather than just accept
some other sheep's words without question or conviction, I'm tired of
seeing just such people get up in arms, denounce an entire event, and
flat out propogate rumor and inuendo! The hard core fact remains . . .
THIS IS NOT JUST CLIFF!!! There's a whole committee of people, who
despite the rumors, HAVE NOT QUIT!
THINK FOR YOURSELVES! FIND OUT FOR YOURSELVES! Ask the questions to
the people who can answer . . . not people who have no clue and are
basing their ideas on what they heard from someone else.
It saddens me to see such a blantant lack of support NOT ONLY for us
as a Committee, but also for all of the people who have had enough
faith in us to believe in our committments . . . LIKE THE BANDS!!!
<sarcasm> oh, but it's not about the bands </sarcasm>
For some people, it is about the bands AND about the memories from
seeing those bands while they were sharing those times with their
friends.
I hope that those of you who have been supportive . . . and there have
been a lot!! . . . I hope you realize how much your kind words and your
faith in us has helped us get along in this endeavor. I hope you all
come up and introduce yourselves to me so I can thank you for your
support!
-Carrin
Joseph Max
Scott Crawford wrote:
> In article <3B5490E2...@olywa.net>, Daednu <dae...@olywa.net> wrote:
>
> > I have extensive experience with the US system.
>
> Well...show us the money!
>
> Coil are (obviously) on record as saying the gig will happen, on their web
> site. (although someone might want to tell them that it's "Irving" Plaza,
> not "Irvine", heh...), so this is definitely a few steps past "I'll
> believe it when I see it" status.
>
> Unless there are rules against posting the paperwork (which there
> shouldn't be...they're a matter of public record...), let's see 'em! If
> you want to black out any financial details involved, hell, do that, but
> for a number of reasons, some of us would like a bit more proof that this
> is indeed on.
Well, some of you are going to be disappointed when a) nobody is posting
anything of the sort to any usenet forum, and b) you miss out on getting one
of the limited number of tickets that are selling like mad right now even as
we speak.
Your choice...
> No comment on my "refund" suggestion yet?
Trystan has dealt with that issue.
> I mean, sure, if the committee
> wants to let consumer stupidity run its course, fine, carpe diem, but I
> think a show of respect and trust to Convergers would be a much better way
> to go.
We show our respect and trust to Convergers by doing our jobs and doing them
well. People who trust us will get everything the hoped for. People who don't
trust us can take a flying leap, as far as I'm concerned. Their loss.
- J:.M:.555
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's
mind there are few."
-- Shunryu Suzuki
rad...@spam.earthlink.net
<she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote:
> Daednu wrote:
>
> > > You mean, all the details you *can* take into account, until the time that
> > > they actually walk through customs, at which point everything is up to the
> > > discretion of the customs officer.
> >
> > Well, yes and no. They need proper grounds to turn you back. If you've
> > done everything absolutely properly, they can't turn you back. Even
> > customs need to report back to someone about their actions.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!! You're funny. You might want to consider a career in stand-up
> comedy, cause that has me in stitches.
>
Personally, I'm a little skeptical of either of your claims of
expertise since in neither the US nor in Canada is this a customs
issue, a fact that should be patently obvious to anyone whose ever done
the paperwork. Performance Visas, just like every other Visa are
administered by the INS. Despite the hyperbole and horror stories
usually engendered by people who don't leave enough time, try to cut
conrners or evade fees or simply don't know what the hell theyre doing,
its really not hard. You fill out the forms, provide the supporting
documentation, give them the $450 and wait. You need to leave at least
35 days from the submission of *all* of your documents. If youre not
in an excluded category or coming from a rogue state, thats really all
there is to it in 95% of the cases.
The only thing cusoms has anything to do with is equipment and if you
have a valid visa and are smart enough to get an ATA carnet for another
200 pounds its a relatively painless proceedure.
Jim Dugan
Siobhan
wrote:
>My offer still stands. As soon as the distortion, innuendo and downright lies
>cease, so will my "pissiness".
Or, you could take the high road, and just let the event speak for
itself.
Just a suggestion.
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
I once got a fortune cookie with a fortune that said "The
reward of patience is more patience." I threw it on the
ground and stomped on it. ~E Matthesen
Sheryl Kirby
> Oh I get it. Everyone else is supposed to be free to "get pissy", spread
> distortion, innuendo and downright lies, while we who are actually doing THE WORK
> are supposed to just grin, grease up and bend over...
That's pretty much how it worked for all the rest of us that came before you.
Why should you get special treatment? Did no one from Seattle pass the
"Convergence Ass-Grease" on to you guys?
Look, from someone who was admittedly the "hothead" of the Convergence
committee I worked on, it's in your best interest to chill. (If you don't
believe me, do a google search on "C4" and view my personal PR fuck-ups first
hand. You'll realize that I know what I'm talking about here.) Up until this
point, you guys have been (mostly) consistent about having one person speaking
for the group, and I've thought highly of you for that point.
I can understand a lot of the stuff that people have complained about over the
past few months, but I can also, on a lot of issues, see your POV. I know what
you're going through, including the stress of trying to please a group of
people that seem unpleasable. I've been there; same group of people for the
most part.
But all of you jumping in here to defend things really only makes it worse.
You've gone from having one person doing all the talking to a bunch of
different people speaking for all the other different people. You all must
have realized by this point that you can't please everybody, hell, sometimes
you can't please anybody; but you've just got to go along and get the job done
anyway.
This is alt.gothic, man, bitching is pretty much what we do here. Bitching
about Convergence, especially. If someone didn't clue you in to that before
you signed on, you might want to try and contact your union rep. ;) Hell, if
you check the rest of the thread, you'll see where people are *still* ragging
at me about a band that I booked for C4... *three* freakin' years ago.
In any kind of event this size, there are bound to be people that are not
completely happy with what you're doing, and there are bound to be mistakes.
Every committee has gone through its share of fuck-ups; venue changes,
committee member changes, price changes, law suits, restraining orders (yes,
really)... IMHO, the reason those things got held against C7 and not "those
that came before", was what appeared to be a lack of openness to keep people
up to date on what was going down. Opinions differ on whether sharing that
info is in the best interest of the event, but in this case, it appears that
the people this event was meant to be for would have preferred a degree more
information.
There's nothing that can be done to change that now, of course, and it's not
really a lesson for the future for this particular committee (although future
committees might want to take heed of what has transpired), but it is an
explanation of the bad feelings that abound. You don't necessarily have to
like that, but I think you're probably going to have to accept it.
I can't speak for anybody else on this issue, but personally, I don't wish bad
things for you or the event. I *know* the work that goes into these things,
and no matter what people think of the various committee members personally,
none of you deserve that. But you all need to keep in mind that a *lot* of
people are terribly hurt by the way things have been run. Whether you feel
that hurt is justified or not is another issue, but the feelings are there.
Nowhere that I've seen has that been addressed. Again, you all may not feel it
*needs* to be addressed, but the people this event is supposed to be for
obviously do. And by not addressing that, they've been made to feel alienated,
intentional or not.
Booking a band like Coil, as wonderful as they are, only furthers that feeling
of alienation. Part of it is the circumstances surrounding this particular
band; not having played NA before, they're going to draw a number of attendees
that otherwise wouldn't have even considered coming to Convergence, thus
making it more about "the bands" than about the act of converging itself.
Since there were bad feelings of this event "not being about the attendees" to
begin with, adding Coil (and their particular set of circumstances) to the
bill only exacerbated those feelings. Given the posts made by many of the
committee members, it genuinely seems (to me at least) that this probably
wasn't your *intention*. Nevertheless, the feelings created cannot be denied.
And I don't think anybody is expecting you to pull Coil from the bill because
of it, but at the same time, as the committee of people making these
decisions, you do have to bend over and grease up for the fallout and bad
feelings because of it.
> Maybe it's time for a new "tradition".
It's time for a *lot* of new traditions surrounding Convergence. Almost all
aspects of it, in fact, relating to everything from the committees, the voting
process and what people should realistically be able to expect from it. We
start bitching about that once the submission period for C8 has been
announced.
> My offer still stands. As soon as the distortion, innuendo and downright lies
> cease, so will my "pissiness".
You've got a looooooooooooong month ahead of you. :) Just remember; there are
many different points of view on this issue, to some people, the "distortion,
innuendo and downright lies" are coming from your camp. You can take it all
terribly personally and spend all your time on alt.gothic arguing about it, or
you can take the high road, ignore it, let one person speak for your group,
and set to the huge amounts of work I *know* you've all still got in front of
you.
Sheryl
Joseph Max
Siobhan wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:46:28 -0700, Joseph Max <jm...@necronomi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >My offer still stands. As soon as the distortion, innuendo and downright lies
> >cease, so will my "pissiness".
>
> Or, you could take the high road, and just let the event speak for
> itself.
>
> Just a suggestion.
And not a bad one, but for a couple of things. By taking too high a road, as
we've done so far, we just end up being thought of as aloof, ivory tower
PROMOTERS, and promoters in any scene are automatically suspect. The more
successful, the more suspect. So being PROMOTERS, then anything negative that is
said about us is assumed factual unless challenged. We're guilty until proven
innocent.
And some things have been said and done that are simply beyond the pale. Answer
must at some point be given.
And the event will STILL speak for itself. But don't take my word for it. Come
and see.
- J:.M:.555
"All great things must first wear a terrifying and monsterous mask, in order to
inscribe themselves on the hearts of humanity." -- Fredrick Nietzsche
The Lighthouse Keeper
"Sheryl Kirby" <she...@stainedproductions.com> wrote in message
news:3B5487CD...@stainedproductions.com...
> cr...@cornell.edu wrote:
> If you're going to this show expecting "Tainted Love" and "Windowpane"
you're
> going to be *sadly* disappointed. Coil's current works are *extremely*
> oriented to the ambient, experimental electronic vein.
No "Bloodcicle honey suck!"?
Awww man...!
<grin>
--
Monstrum comminuat,
The Lighthouse Keeper
castiro...@facehugger.com
http://lhkeeper.nocturnis.net
Sheryl Kirby
> Personally, I'm a little skeptical of either of your claims of
> expertise since in neither the US nor in Canada is this a customs
> issue, a fact that should be patently obvious to anyone whose ever done
> the paperwork. Performance Visas, just like every other Visa are
> administered by the INS.
We don't have an "INS" department in Canada. We deal with Human Resources
Development Canada - Foreign Worker Recruitment. aka "Immigration". You're
right in that it's got nothing to do with "customs"; I think that term started
to get thrown around interchangably, which is probably my fault.
> Despite the hyperbole and horror stories
> usually engendered by people who don't leave enough time, try to cut
> conrners or evade fees or simply don't know what the hell theyre doing,
> its really not hard. You fill out the forms, provide the supporting
> documentation, give them the $450 and wait. You need to leave at least
> 35 days from the submission of *all* of your documents. If youre not
> in an excluded category or coming from a rogue state, thats really all
> there is to it in 95% of the cases.
That's sort of how it's done in Canada, except the $450 is paid by the band at
the port of entry, it's not done in advance. As well, once the paperwork is
processed, it's sent to the promoter who then has to forward it to the band to
present to the appropriate people when they enter the country. This Visa
allows them to work in the country for the dates specified; in Canada, it
doesn't necessarily get them *into* the country. I've had bands come across
with everything in perfect order who still got delayed for hours just because
the immigration officer thought they looked "weird".
I've also had the HRDC officer who processed the original paperwork tell me
one set of information and then had the band show up to enter the country and
be told another set of information; right down to a different set of
performance fees (which left the band scrambling for cash since we had
provided them a money-order in what we were told was the correct amount. The
money order was less than what the band was told the fee was and the border
guys wouldn't take the MO and make change). I've had bands come in with all
their paperwork completed, their money-order for $450 in hand, and had the
immigration officer refuse to take the payment and wave them through because
"I was in a band once and I know how tough it can be." (!!!) It may be
different with the US, but for Canada, it appears to be totally at the
discretion of the officer processing the band through.
> The only thing cusoms has anything to do with is equipment and if you
> have a valid visa and are smart enough to get an ATA carnet for another
> 200 pounds its a relatively painless proceedure.
Equipment and merchandise in Canada, since the government charges the band GST
(goods and services tax) on merchandise when they come into the country, then
the band has to file a claim when they get home to get back the GST on unsold
items.
The Lighthouse Keeper
all
> aspects of it, in fact, relating to everything from the committees, the
voting
> process and what people should realistically be able to expect from it. We
> start bitching about that once the submission period for C8 has been
> announced.
I think we should have the motherfucker in Beijing.
How goth would THAT be?
The Lighthouse Keeper
>I hope you all
> come up and introduce yourselves to me so I can thank you for your
> support!
>
> -Carrin
Y'all should've booked Flickerstick.
The Lighthouse Keeper
> Bryen193 wrote:
> I guess it would depend on the ratio of "pirate-costumed ninnies" in
> attendance then. But given it's Convergence, isn't it *all about* the
pirate
> costume? ;)
NO! Damnit.
It's about the NINNIE... and the pirate costume does NOT the ninnie make.
The Lighthouse Keeper
> rad...@spam.earthlink.net wrote:
> We don't have an "INS" department in Canada. We deal with Human Resources
> Development Canada - Foreign Worker Recruitment. aka "Immigration".
Socialist freaks. <grin>
kest
>>And some things have been said and done that are simply beyond the pale.
>Answer must at some point be given.
>
Just don't lose your sense of humor; its one of your strong points.
>And the event will STILL speak for itself. But don't take my word for
>it. Come and see.
>
You buyin' the drinks? ;)
k
--
You had to be there.
Joseph Max
> jm...@necronomi.com (Joseph Max) challenged the world with:
>
> >>And some things have been said and done that are simply beyond the pale.
> >Answer must at some point be given.
> Just don't lose your sense of humor; its one of your strong points.
I feel a "Rescue Squad" parody rising in me.... oh god stop me before I kill
again.......
>
> >And the event will STILL speak for itself. But don't take my word for
> >it. Come and see.
> >
>
> You buyin' the drinks? ;)
I already owe you one. I was planning to swap insider horror stories of band
gossip and tribulations for shots of Bushmill's. But for you, it's a freebie.
- J:.M:.555
"Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two
pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they
ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. But because of their limited
perspective, they never came close to guessing they were making champagne."
-- Kurt Vonnegut
pixie
Crawford) wrote:
>Second, I'd love to see something in writing from U.S. Customs (or
>whoever's responsible for this sort of thing) posted on the C7 site,
>saying that Coil are cleared to land and perform here. Scans of some
>documents will do just fine.
Heh.
I remember when I was supposed to see the Cranes open for the Cure and
they couldn't get in the country in time for the tour...
Apparently, many shows on the Wish tour did have the Cranes, but not
the early ones, and I was at the first.
Not that this has anything to do with anything... more of a just
sayin.
I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
pixie
--
"In conclusion, I have dominated the world and you are
all my faithful servants. Goodbye."
st Albatross
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7 wrote:
> I'm tired of seeing new and completely unfounded lies on here about
> something that I have worked so hard to put together.
I know for a fact that your mother is going to be bringing yellow jello
to this event. Come on, how goth is that? In the good old days of
Convergence, everyone's mother brought green jello, the only true gothic
jello. You can call me a liar, but I know what I know.
> It belittles not
> only my efforts, by the undying dedication of all the other Committee
> members who have also sat back and watched it happen.
You're taking what every Convergence committee has taken since C3. A
lot of people care jack all about your efforts compared to the
mastubatory satisfaction they get from dissing anything that doesn't
line up for them like proverbial ducks.
If you guys are getting it worse than usual, it is due to two reasons:
one, the fact that your long-time local civil war has spread; and two,
you are standing at a very controversial juncture regarding the meaning
and future of the event. That's too bad - but anyone who has watched
this for the last few years had to know it was coming.
Anyway, as justified as your feelings are, your feelings have little
enough to do anything. The event will speak for itself, and for you. It
is the event that justifies your efforts.
> <sarcasm> oh, but it's not about the bands </sarcasm>
It isn't about the bands. At least, Convergence of Old was not about
the bands. Not even a little. Not a smidgen; not one iota. It would have
been attended, by the regulars of this newgroup for whom it was
organized, if Ray Potts and the Country Fever band was the main event.
st Albatross
--
"AMOR. MAN IN A COMA, MA'AM. NEMO. AMEN." - Geoffrey Hill
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
"Trystan L. Bass" <trys...@NOTtoreadors.com> wrote in message
news:tl9f2bq...@news.supernews.com...
> So, if you care about Convergence or just want to see Coil, you buy a
ticket
> & hope a terrorist (or peeved Cliff-hater) doesn't blow up the venue & the
> band doesn't catch the plague on their way to the show. It's just a risk
you
> take.
>
> --T.
I have never purchased tickets to a concert or a festival or a convention
that a refund policy. The last tattoo convention I went to had a note on
their site that said
"refunds? HA!"
Just another point to bring up.
I'd be interested to know if there are any conventions out there that do
offer refunds.
-Carrin
lorelei
jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk says...
>
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:46 GMT, Sheryl Kirby wrote:
>
>>From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
>>the rest of the official events is definitely the plan.
>
>I think that this would be an inherent danger of having a band as "big"
>as Coil at any Convergence-sort of event (i.e. part of a themed festival
>type thingie).
>
>For instance, New Model Army regularly feature in people's Fantasy
>Whitby Line-ups, whereas we all know the reality would be a large
>proportion of tickets going to people who don't give a stuff about the
>rest of the bands and even less about other events/ social elements, and
>thus people who go for a combination of the above would miss out.
Well, I've never been to Whitby, but it sounds closer to the 'convention' model
of Convergence than, say, the goths' answer to Reading, Glastonbury, T in the
Park etc. Also, NMA seem to play an awful lot of gigs in the UK anyway, which
would make it seem kind of pointless to book them at Whitby.
If a genuine "dark music" festival along the lines of WGT or Zillo ever *did*
happen over here, then maybe those who are really into schmoozing could have
their Convergences back on a manageable scale, uninterrupted by people who (god
forbid) are really more interested in the music. But I'm convinced that this
will never, ever happen.
There are very few opportunities for overseas bands without the backing of
powerful record companies to play lucrative gigs in the States, so in a sense I
can't fault them for taking advantage. But I must wonder if a band like Coil,
presumably not regular readers of the alt.gothic* hierarchy on Usenet, doesn't
somehow imagine that Convergence *will* be akin to WGT. They're in for a rude
awakening if so...
>Coil at C7 is pretty much exactly the same situation. (Except, of
>course, that it's actually happening).
>
>Jodi
>
>Who would love to see Coil, but not at Convergence, if that makes any
>sense.
I agree, but probably for very different reasons. The whole concept of
Convergence turns me right off-lots and lots of people I never wanted to meet,
and perhaps a tiny handful that I *would* like to meet (but could just as easily
do without the excuse of some large organised hootenanny), all packed like
sardines into some hall and shouting to be heard. This after a good 10 months of
whingeing on a massive scale about how Convergence isn't supposed to be about
the bands, and how everything done by the promoters is totally wrong, it's
tooooo expensive, what about the neeeetgaaaawths, blah, blah, blah. If these are
the sorts of people who attend, I'd prefer a weekend of quiet relaxation at a
nunnery!
Oh well-I'll cheerily wait for the inevitable European tour, and if anyone
complains there, hopefully it'll be in a language I can't understand.
lorelei
~~~~
"I'm going to leave work and go to the park
to suckle some sunshine! Jippi!"--eirik
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
"st Albatross" <big...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:3B54FFC1...@speakeasy.org...
> Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7 wrote:
>
> > I'm tired of seeing new and completely unfounded lies on here about
> > something that I have worked so hard to put together.
>
> I know for a fact that your mother is going to be bringing yellow jello
> to this event. Come on, how goth is that? In the good old days of
> Convergence, everyone's mother brought green jello, the only true gothic
> jello. You can call me a liar, but I know what I know.
YES!! But wait until you TASTE IT!!! Mom puts real lemons in
it, it adds to any goth demeanor!! I promise. *lol*
and just for the record, my momz would have mad fun at C7, yo!
*tee hee*
> Anyway, as justified as your feelings are, your feelings have little
> enough to do anything. The event will speak for itself, and for you. It
> is the event that justifies your efforts.
You know what? You're right, it is more about my feelings right
now . . . and I realize that . . . but I've sat for a very long
time and watched the proverbial poo-poo flailing about the wobbily
walls of usenet . . . and for once I didn't, still don't really,
feel like sitting back and a) ignoring it or b) responding gently
and diplomatically. It's all relative, I know this, I'm a rational
human being . . . and I often wonder how just such rationale allowed
me to volunteer for such an exercise in futility . . . meaning the
"spokesperson" aspect of it and all.
But "the show must go on", "on with the show", "see you in 2 and 2"
. . . oh wait ;) (love connection reference, for those tikees)
It will be magnificent, it will be one of the most special
events of my life, and I know this.
> > <sarcasm> oh, but it's not about the bands </sarcasm>
>
> It isn't about the bands. At least, Convergence of Old was not about
> the bands. Not even a little. Not a smidgen; not one iota. It would have
> been attended, by the regulars of this newgroup for whom it was
> organized, if Ray Potts and the Country Fever band was the main event.
You're right, it wasn't about the bands, and for some people,
it's still not. But be on this end and you'll realize that's
long gone. People whine about the fact that there aren't any
bands in the proposal, then they whine about the first band
selections -they're not good enough, then we get overloaded
with band suggestions, and then hate mail when those bands
aren't selected, then there's whine to be had that the band
selections are overblown . . . it's that whole silly thing
about not being able to please everyone all the time. So we
wanted something we could be proud of, something that we knew
our friends would like.
C'est la vie (sp?, I failed French ;)
-Carrin
Margaret A Sawyer
.. by C. CONVE...@carrin.or
> that a refund policy. The last tattoo convention I went to had a note on
> their site that said
>
Really? I went to a concert in Ohio where there were about 6 bands, plus
events. Two of the main bands canceled, and they offered refunds. Seeing
as I had driven three hours to see the show, I was a bit pissed, but
stayed to enjoy the other 4 bands. A few of my friends did ask for
refunds though.
Personally, I do think a refund policy would be a very good idea. :) I
always feel really confident about buying tickets with refund policies
because I know that the promoter has an extra incentive to make sure
that the show happens. It's a really small gesture of good will, but it
makes a big difference. :)
Megan
--
Megan Sawyer
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~msawyer
"Rock stars... is there anything they don't know?" -Homer Simpson
Victorianrose
Carrin wrote:
> C'est la vie (sp?, I failed French ;)
Carrin, darling, your French is tres magnifique.
Victorian Rose
looking forward to C7 - only wishes she had her business up and going sooner
so she could participate in the Goblin Market :(
Greylock
>I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
You're missing out.
Go buy Horse Rotovator.
-----
H*ydn
"Ironically, the goth music seems to be evolving into
something I liked when playing C64 games." - ren
Greylock
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:46 GMT, Sheryl Kirby wrote:
>>From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
>>the rest of the official events is definitely the plan.
>I think that this would be an inherent danger of having a band as "big"
>as Coil at any Convergence-sort of event (i.e. part of a themed festival
>type thingie).
Cx has often had "big" name bands (and no, I'm not including Peter Murphy).
Why, there was Christian Death, Clan of Xymox, some other big electro band
who cancelled C5 or C6....
Greylock
>I have never purchased tickets to a concert or a festival or a convention
>that a refund policy.
>offer refunds.
You may wish to look at the Whitby website then.
The disclaimer is something to the effect of: "If you are purchasing
tickets to see a particular band *please* let us know so we can deal with
you later on if problems arise."
Seems like a sensible policy.
Voltair
:I don't know about you guys, but I ESPECIALLY wouldn't want to be on the
:receiving end of the wrath of a bunch of Coil fans. >:D
Nick/Yaruar
> Last episode jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk (Jodi) said:
> >On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:02:46 GMT, Sheryl Kirby wrote:
> >>From the people I know of that are considering going to see Coil, blowing off
> >>the rest of the official events is definitely the plan.
> >I think that this would be an inherent danger of having a band as "big"
> >as Coil at any Convergence-sort of event (i.e. part of a themed festival
> >type thingie).
>
> Cx has often had "big" name bands (and no, I'm not including Peter Murphy).
> Why, there was Christian Death, Clan of Xymox, some other big electro band
> who cancelled C5 or C6....
Ahh, big fish.... tiny pond.....
Nick/yaruar
Scott Crawford
OK, time for me to debunk the two-pronged assault of the ma-cheen. ;D
"The captain has turned on the 'tongue-in-cheek' light in the cabin..."
"Trystan L. Bass" <trys...@NOTtoreadors.com> wrote in message
news:tl9f2bq...@news.supernews.com...
> Sorry, but we can't refund money we've already paid to someone else --
> namely, the venues. In the very unlikely event that Coil's plane drops into
> the Atlantic on their way to NYC, we still have to pay Irving Plaza (among
> other venues & vendors). And, being responsible ppl who live up to their
> contracts, we would pay them. So there goes your refund money. Anyone who's
> worked for volunteer & other nonprofit groups knows refunds are pretty
> impossible when you're lucky to break even.
You haven't paid the venues in advance of ticket sales?
*holding back snickering, because it's not very nice*
That doesn't sound like you're being "responsible ppl" to me. To cite an
somewhat vague example first (vague out of necessity, since most of the
details aren't "ready for the public" yet), before you try to convince the
lemmings that "EVERYONE does things this way": a few friends of a friend
are working on promoting a concert later this year in the NYC metro area
with some pretty big name bands that would appeal to this NG quite a bit
(but that I'm not at liberty to discuss yet). They've apparently secured a
pretty large venue, and signed contracts with at least one, if not a few
of the bands as of last writing. They've also secured (drum roll,
please...) enough funding to pay for the venue and pay the bands if ticket
sales go tits up BEFORE they've made an on-sale announcement! From what I
understand, they've had to bust ass, because it's a LOT of money, but it's
supposedly secured. Heck, on a smaller scale (mostly because it wasn't at
a booze serving venue and because I didn't have bands play), I paid for my
convention (see below) up front, out of pocket, without using ticket sales
to pay the venue owners or talent directly.
> So, if you care about Convergence or just want to see Coil, you buy a
> ticket & hope a terrorist (or peeved Cliff-hater) doesn't blow up the
venue & > the band doesn't catch the plague on their way to the show. It's
just a risk
> you take.
Well...
* With a full Coil tour pending but looking promising (according to their
official web site)...
* ...a list of bands that, unless you guys announce that Xmal thing I
suggested, pretty much looks underwhelming at the moment...
* ...A LOT of us Convergers already making alternate plans to hang out
that weekend ... (many of whom are also planning to blow off
Downtime...God, I hate that place...)
* ...and a committee that has a few members who seem pretty determined to
talk down to anyone who voices a concern about this event, legitimate or
not...
...I don't think it's a risk that I'm likely to take, and it's certainly
not a risk I'm going to recommend that any of my fence-sitting friends and
acquaintances take at this point. Don't worry, though. You'll most likely
get your money, and that's your primary concern at this point, correct?
To be fair here, I know first-hand what it's like to get the shit kicked
out of you in a public forum by ingrates for wanting to break even, and it
SUCKS, but I DID pay up front, and it doesn't sound like you guys did, so
on at least one part of the issue, this is kind of justified.
In my opinion, while the committee probably DOES "care about Convergence",
they should have:
1. Been far more fiscally responsible from the get-go. Even in NYC,
there's gotta be a better way to go about this sort of thing. If there
wasn't a way to work this out in advance, then you DON'T PUT IN A BID FOR
CONVERGENCE. As probably the chief example of this, flying a band with
"marginal appeal" (far less than Coil's, IMO) in from Australia for one
show was not the way to go, regardless of how much some people on the
committee may like them, and how cool it is to "fly in a band from
Australia". I've seen ticket prices for Convergence go from $25 to
(minimum) $60 in 4 years, and not even the ridiculous excesses of the
concert industry justify that kind of hike on a "by the people, for the
people" event. It sets a dangerous precedent for ticket prices to remain
at this level or go even higher, regardless of where Convergence is, or
who's involved.
It probably would've also helped if you guys had cash up front to pay for
this thing, too.
2. Been FAR less smug and FAR more approachable about what you're doing,
ESPECIALLY in light of how some of the haters in this newsgroup view the
committee chairman. I've now watched the organization of about 4
Convergences. More than some people, but less than some, too. I've seen
some committee folks fly off the handle, seen some well-meaning committee
folks promise things they couldn't deliver on and screw people that way,
but I can't say that I've seen this level of hubris from any previous C*
committee, especially not this week.
All you folks have managed to do by handling things this way is play into
the hands of a whiny bunch of haters with anti-Cliff agendas, who,
unfortunately, will make a name for themselves off of your hard work. For
the record, and I think Cliff probably already knows this, but I am not
within MILES of that kind of agenda. I'll give ol' Cliffy a hard time
about stuff from time to time, sure, but it's always in the interest of
making sure he does right by Convergence. To be frank about this, I
would've LOVED to see you guys put together a GREAT Convergence (and maybe
even make NYC at least a shadow of its former self; newsflash for those
just tuning in, you WILL be disappointed with NYC, if you think it's like
all those stories you've heard...Giuliani all but killed that New York.
:|) and shut every damn one of the cranks up, but you're not making it
easy to do so at all.
Then, in article <Ke757.115622$WT.20...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Carrin
-for CONVERGENCE 7" <car...@carrin.org> wrote:
> I have never purchased tickets to a concert or a festival or a convention
> that a refund policy. The last tattoo convention I went to had a note on
> their site that said
>
> "refunds? HA!"
What smug pricks. =)
> Just another point to bring up.
>
> I'd be interested to know if there are any conventions out there that do
> offer refunds.
In the event of band cancellations at concerts, refunds are OFTEN given,
more often than not, in fact. A few examples, off the top of my head:
Monster Magnet had to bow out of the Cult tour just last weekend, because
Dave Wyndorf blew his knee out on or around the day of the show in NJ. I
talked to someone who got a refund. Siouxsie cancelled her appearances on
one of the NJ dates of the first Lollapalooza in '91. While I know of NO
ONE who opted to do this ("c'mon, Jane's and the Buttholes, man..."), they
were offering refunds. The ill-fated ENIT festival offered refunds when
half the bands crapped out (too bad they didn't have the list of who
cancelled up until you were inside the venue, ugh...). The "Zappa's
Universe" tribute concert (I believe in '91 or '92 at The Ritz in NYC)
offered refunds to anyone who didn't want to stay after finding out that
Frank was too ill to attend. I could probably go on about concerts, but
I've made my point on concerts by individuals and "festival"-type things.
When I ran Electronicon (the first international classic video game fan
convention - site archived at http://home.earthlink.net/~sdcrawford/econ/
for a few more weeks, then moving to a new server) in 1997, I offered
refunds, and I believe I even gave a few to people whose travel plans fell
through last minute (which was a stretch on my part, and totally not
required, but hey, I'm the man...). There were a few registered attendees
who no-showed, too, and if they asked, I would've gladly refunded their
money, "break-even" or not. Of course, once again, the venue was paid for
in advance, so I COULD make those decisions.
To stretch a point even further, even baseball games offer rainchecks. If
an ACT OF GOD interferes with your entertainment, they make good, and this
is one of the greediest entertainment conglomerates in the world we're
talking about here.
Just about any entertainment promotion operation that has any interest
whatsoever in having credibility beyond a single event (and maybe that's
the clincher here) will offer refunds to people if the listed
entertainment is not delivered as promised at the time of ticket purchase.
This is why I suggested the cutoff date on the refunds, since Coil weren't
on the ticket until yesterday or so.
Well, there ya go. I've said my piece. Feel free to pick this apart at
will, kids. It's just some guy that never participates on a.g. until
something affects him directly's two cents. Maybe, if there's another
Convergence, I should volunteer to be on the committee, or at least advise
them on some stuff, so I have "room to talk".
Oogiewawa!
Scott Goddamn Crawford
Webmaster, My Big Black Cock and...y'all know the rest.
http://www.mybigblackcock.com/
Jodi
>Last episode pixie <ei...@mindspring.com> said:
>>I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
>
>You're missing out.
>Go buy Horse Rotovator.
Indeed.
And the Hellraiser "Soundtrack".
And possibly "Scatology".
That's about all that's essential in my books. In that order.
Jodi
I am angry I am ill and I'm as ugly as sin
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
- Magazine, "A Song from Under the Floorboards"
Jodi
>I'd be interested to know if there are any conventions out there that do
>offer refunds.
Whitby.
Scott Crawford
jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:11:25 GMT, Greylock wrote:
>
> >Last episode pixie <ei...@mindspring.com> said:
> >>I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
> >
> >You're missing out.
> >Go buy Horse Rotovator.
>
> Indeed.
>
> And the Hellraiser "Soundtrack".
>
> And possibly "Scatology".
>
> That's about all that's essential in my books. In that order.
"Unnatural History", baby. Can't front on that. Great music to trim a
Christmas tree to, especially "The Pope Held Upside Down".
"Love's Secret Domain" has its moments too, if you can track down a copy of it.
-S
Sheryl Kirby
>
> Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 18-Jul-101 Re: C7 - Band Announcement
> .. by C. CONVE...@carrin.or
> > I have never purchased tickets to a concert or a festival or a convention
> > that a refund policy. The last tattoo convention I went to had a note on
> > their site that said
Hmm... I wonder if those Wotapalava people know that $200 of their money got
credited to my Visa account...
> Really? I went to a concert in Ohio where there were about 6 bands, plus
> events. Two of the main bands canceled, and they offered refunds. Seeing
> as I had driven three hours to see the show, I was a bit pissed, but
> stayed to enjoy the other 4 bands. A few of my friends did ask for
> refunds though.
If the band doesn't make it for some reason, it's only fair. After all, most
contracts are set up so that if the band doesn't make it to the show, they
don't get paid, so it's not as if the promoters would be going out of pocket
to offer a refund.
> Personally, I do think a refund policy would be a very good idea. :) I
> always feel really confident about buying tickets with refund policies
> because I know that the promoter has an extra incentive to make sure
> that the show happens. It's a really small gesture of good will, but it
> makes a big difference. :)
There are always things that are beyond the promoters control, but fixing the
boo-boos always generate goodwill. I refer you all to the great C4 t-shirt
debacle... when we pointed out the problem and offered to repair the
silkscreening, not one person complained about having to give their shirt
back. And as many people pointed out when they thanked us "You could have just
not said a word, let us all go home, wash the damn thing and end up with a
plain black shirt. It's so totally cool of you to offer to fix the problem
before we even knew there was one." The same philosophy applies to refunds.
Nick/Yaruar
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:19:06 GMT, Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7 wrote:
>
> >I'd be interested to know if there are any conventions out there that do
> >offer refunds.
>
> Whitby.
Whitby is sooooooooo not a convention.
Nick/yaruar
Gothpat
Crawford) had this to say:
But it has been stated that Coil currently doesn't perform any of the
songs from these albums. I have to admit that I wouldn't be too keen
to see them if all they did was ambient/trance/techno.
But, pixie, do check out the ones mentioned abouve.
Their version of "Tainted Love" is quite wonderful in a sad sort of
way.
GothPat
Sheryl Kirby
>
> it
> > means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only
> using
> > it to see Coil. They've never played live in North America, and only once
> or
> > twice in the UK over the past 20 years or so. There are enough people that
> > would pay that much to see them, that the necessity of attracting folks
> from
> > alt.gothic is now negligible.
>
> <sarcasm> Yep, wow, you're very quick. </sarcasm>
That's what they told me in school.
> Coil was chosen for many reasons . . . we like them a lot being the
> biggest. And whether they are "goth" or not is your personal opinion
> . . . Andrew Eldrich doesn't think he's goth -HA! I happen to have an
> aweful lot of goth friends who absolutely adore Coil. Luckily, those
> friends will be there to get to see an amazing show with me.
So... is Convergence about alt.gothic... or is it now about a party for your
friends?
> > But if anyone had any concerns about C7 *not* being about the people of
> > alt.gothic, this should clinch it.
>
> <sarcasm> After all, everyone on a.g has been so supportive of us up
> to this point. </sarcasm>
I think people have been supportive in a proportional degree to the amount of
inclusiveness you've offered them.
> Despite any new rumors that are sure to start flying around amidst the
> accusations and absolute untruths that have become standard practice
> here . . . we actually still are hosting a truly amazing Convergence,
> complete with all kinds of activities and performances that will allow
> people who are actually interested in coming together for one event, to
> be together, to enjoy the company fo their friends, to support an effort
> of hard work by many people who care about making it an amazing event!
> Believe it or not, there are a lot of them . . . they just don't whine
> all the time.
Did you ball gag them all?
I'm interested in the phrase here of "allegations and absolute untruths"...
I've seen *opinions* presented, I've seen *feelings* expressed, but could you
please point out some examples where people have knowingly out and out *lied*
about C7?
> This may sound kind of bitchy, and for once, I am not holding my tongue.
> I'm tired of seeing new and completely unfounded lies on here about
> something that I have worked so hard to put together. It belittles not
> only my efforts, by the undying dedication of all the other Committee
> members who have also sat back and watched it happen.
Again, can you please present some examples of what you consider to be "lies"?
> I'm tired of seeing people who don't even KNOW Cliff, who have never
> even met Cliff, who don't even have any facts, even those who have met
> him yet still don't have the facts, haven't even bothered to look into
> their own minds and find their own opinions, rather than just accept
> some other sheep's words without question or conviction, I'm tired of
> seeing just such people get up in arms, denounce an entire event, and
> flat out propogate rumor and inuendo! The hard core fact remains . . .
> THIS IS NOT JUST CLIFF!!! There's a whole committee of people, who
> despite the rumors, HAVE NOT QUIT!
Look, I barely know Cliff. I met him at C4 and I dislike him for some of his
behaviour there, but that's not enough to inspire me to work against a
Convergence he might be working on. And while I wasn't around during the vote,
I can't recall seeing anything recently where anybody said something to slag
Cliff and therefore told other people, "don't support Convergence". My
impression of the lack of support you guys have gotten has been that it
stemmed from people simply not getting information in a timely fashion, not
getting information when they asked for it, and not being taken into
consideration in the planning of an event that was meant for them, and
therefore not trusting that you guys were doing your job.
Convergence is like alt.gothic's first born child. You've been hired to
babysit. You might be Mary Freakin' Poppins, but that doesn't mean that the
fretful parents aren't going to call you every fifteen minutes to check in.
And as the fretful parents, if they're not happy with your responses, they
have every right to be concerned.
I've always maintained that the most difficult part of putting together a
Convergence is not dealing with bands or venues or financial responsibilities,
it's the PR; dealing with the people that the event is for. The people here
hold Convergence very close to their hearts; it's where friendships are
forged, relationships are formed and even sealed (at least two or three C*
have included weddings); the people of alt.gothic expect to be a part of the
planning process. In taking on the organizational responsibility, you also
took on the job of dealing with that. It is *your job* to keep everyone happy,
or at least as happy as realistically possible. That means listening to
suggestions (even if it's the most whacked out idea in the world), replying
nicely, and perhaps even offering an explanation of why their suggestion
cannot be used, just so their feelings aren't hurt.
It is also *your job* to make sure that the people get the information they
need in a timely fashion. When you have people whining cajoling and begging
for information four months before the event so they can make travel plans,
that is not a "timely fashion", regardless of how hard you might have been
"working on it" all along. It is also your job to see that the correct
information gets to the right people... what was the point of the post to
*Cangoth* about air fare discounts listing flights to NYC from major US
cities, in US prices? And did you ever reply to the person that pointed out
that the information you provided to that list was essentially useless?
Cliff makes a nice scapegoat, but from what I've seem, no one is placing all
the blame for things on him.
<snip>
> I hope that those of you who have been supportive . . . and there have
> been a lot!! . . . I hope you realize how much your kind words and your
> faith in us has helped us get along in this endeavor. I hope you all
> come up and introduce yourselves to me so I can thank you for your
> support!
Again, I see the amount of support you've received as directly proportional to
the amount of timely information and the level of inclusion that you've
offered the people of this newsgroup. You may feel differently of course, but
it's obvious that the people this event was meant for don't agree with you.
Gothpat
>I have never purchased tickets to a concert or a festival or a convention
>that a refund policy. The last tattoo convention I went to had a note on
>their site that said
>
>"refunds? HA!"
>
>Just another point to bring up.
>
>I'd be interested to know if there are any conventions out there that do
>offer refunds.
>
The first Convergence OFFERED and MADE refunds.
But then, none of the C7 committee ever asked me about this-or
anything.
GothPat
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
news:suck-18070...@dialup-64.157.72.234.dial1.weehawken1.level3.net.
..
> People of Cartoonland,
>
> You haven't paid the venues in advance of ticket sales?
This is _exactly_ the kind of out of your ass talking that
creates rumors that are untrue. We have paid our deposits,
and then some extra on our own accord, to all of the venues
that are slated for the C7 weekend. Please do not add to
the hysteria by creating more hysteria.
> details aren't "ready for the public" yet), before you try to convince the
> lemmings that "EVERYONE does things this way": a few friends of a friend
"lemmings"? that's not talking down to anyone here, is it?
> supposedly secured. Heck, on a smaller scale (mostly because it wasn't at
> a booze serving venue and because I didn't have bands play), I paid for my
> convention (see below) up front, out of pocket, without using ticket sales
> to pay the venue owners or talent directly.
Our event _is_ secured, has been since early this year,
with deposits for venues being put down about 3 to 4 months
in advance of the event. As for you paying for your
convention, either you're amazingly wealthy with mucho extra
cash to toss around, or it was very small.
You don't know what the logistics of this event are and if
you had been reading posts about this exact kind of thing,
then you would have seen my posts which explained, over and
over, again and again, that we are NOT JUST paying for a venue
and a couple of bands . . . we have 3 days with many daytime
activities that have to be housed somewhere, those cost money.
On top of that, there are the venues (3 nights) and the bands
. . . plus a multitude of other expenses, too many to list
here.
> * With a full Coil tour pending but looking promising (according to their
> official web site)...
Not until a distant future.
> * ...a list of bands that, unless you guys announce that Xmal thing I
> suggested, pretty much looks underwhelming at the moment...
Again, there are MANY other events and activities going on
. . . but you don't want to be a lemming . . . so maybe it's
an event that isn't for you.
> * ...A LOT of us Convergers already making alternate plans to hang out
> that weekend ... (many of whom are also planning to blow off
> Downtime...God, I hate that place...)
That's actually something that is not big shocker . . . every
Convergence has been the catalyst for extracaricular activities
. . . room parties are one of the main attractions.
> * ...and a committee that has a few members who seem pretty determined to
> talk down to anyone who voices a concern about this event, legitimate or
> not...
Maybe you're coming in a little late on this whole thing . . .
and what you've missed is a lot of tongue biting on our end.
Honestly, I've worked really hard to be diplomatic about a lot
of things that most people wouldn't . . . and it just happens
that I have decided to open my mouth a bit more opening and
often just in the last few days. If it has come out as "talking
down" it wouldn't be the first time it's happened in this forum,
or any forum.
But, your addressing this post as "People of Cartoonland", or
calling the people who are interested in Convergence "lemmings"
. . . well, that's really respectful, isn't it?
> ...I don't think it's a risk that I'm likely to take, and
it's certainly
> not a risk I'm going to recommend that any of my fence-sitting friends and
> acquaintances take at this point. Don't worry, though. You'll most likely
> get your money, and that's your primary concern at this point, correct?
If making money was our concern, we wouldn't have volunteered
to host a Convergence . . . for the 150th time - we are not going
to make ANY money off this event. At this point, we don't even
know if we will break-even . . . we, the Committee members, are
even paying for our own tickets!
> To be fair here, I know first-hand what it's like to get the shit kicked
> out of you in a public forum by ingrates for wanting to break even, and it
> SUCKS, but I DID pay up front, and it doesn't sound like you guys did, so
> on at least one part of the issue, this is kind of justified.
You host a CONVENTION of this size, and then I would honestly
like to have this conversation with you . . . but until you do,
you don't know what it's like . . . period.
> In my opinion, while the committee probably DOES "care about Convergence",
> they should have:
>
> 1. Been far more fiscally responsible from the get-go. Even in NYC,
>
> It probably would've also helped if you guys had cash up front to pay for
> this thing, too.
Again, You host a CONVENTION of this size, and then I would
honestly like to have this conversation with you . . . but
until you do, you don't know what it's like . . . period.
>
> 2. Been FAR less smug and FAR more approachable about what you're doing,
> ESPECIALLY in light of how some of the haters in this newsgroup view the
> committee chairman. I've now watched the organization of about 4
> Convergences. More than some people, but less than some, too. I've seen
> some committee folks fly off the handle, seen some well-meaning committee
> folks promise things they couldn't deliver on and screw people that way,
> but I can't say that I've seen this level of hubris from any previous C*
> committee, especially not this week.
Approachable?
There have been quite a lot of people who were honestly
interested in finding out the truth, in getting actual facts
and information, who have taken the time and emailed us to
find out themselves. They weren't interested in confrontation
in a public forum, they weren't just looking to create their
own version of reality and propogate rumors. Those people have
what they need, and have been able to make educated decisions
as to whether to come, or not.
> In the event of band cancellations at concerts, refunds are OFTEN given,
> more often than not, in fact. A few examples, off the top of my head:
> Monster Magnet had to bow out of the Cult tour just last weekend, because
A concert, with one main band . . . and mucho funds from a
record label backing their tour, plus advertising funds . . .
doesn't really match up in comparison.
> Dave Wyndorf blew his knee out on or around the day of the show in NJ. I
> talked to someone who got a refund. Siouxsie cancelled her appearances on
> one of the NJ dates of the first Lollapalooza in '91. While I know of NO
> ONE who opted to do this ("c'mon, Jane's and the Buttholes, man..."), they
Yet again . . . mucho, mucho advertisement funds and funds
from a record label backing their tour . . . doesn't really
match up in comparison.
Not to mention you are talking about an absolutely HUGE
event here, thousands and thousands of people were involved
with Lollapalooza, and they were handled by a big corporation.
We are talking about 1000 tickets, and everyone counts . . .
we are not a corporate conglomerate either.
> were offering refunds. The ill-fated ENIT festival offered refunds when
> half the bands crapped out (too bad they didn't have the list of who
> cancelled up until you were inside the venue, ugh...). The "Zappa's
> Universe" tribute concert (I believe in '91 or '92 at The Ritz in NYC)
> offered refunds to anyone who didn't want to stay after finding out that
> Frank was too ill to attend. I could probably go on about concerts, but
> I've made my point on concerts by individuals and "festival"-type things.
and I've made my point . . . C7 doesn't compare to the kind of
funding that those types of festivals have . . . there will be
no record label providing ALL the bands . . . there will be no
big ass banners for stuff like Depends or Colgate.
> When I ran Electronicon (the first international classic video game fan
> convention - site archived at http://home.earthlink.net/~sdcrawford/econ/
> for a few more weeks, then moving to a new server) in 1997, I offered
> refunds, and I believe I even gave a few to people whose travel plans fell
> through last minute (which was a stretch on my part, and totally not
> required, but hey, I'm the man...). There were a few registered attendees
> who no-showed, too, and if they asked, I would've gladly refunded their
> money, "break-even" or not. Of course, once again, the venue was paid for
> in advance, so I COULD make those decisions.
You're an anomaly, or maybe a saint. I'm impressed and I hope
you were still able to make money off the event . . . but that's
not the case here.
> Well, there ya go. I've said my piece. Feel free to pick this apart at
> will, kids. It's just some guy that never participates on a.g. until
> something affects him directly's two cents. Maybe, if there's another
> Convergence, I should volunteer to be on the committee, or at least advise
> them on some stuff, so I have "room to talk".
I mentioned before . . . if you do volunteer for a Convergence
Committee, and you participate . . . I'd honestly like to talk
to you afterwards.
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7
"Victorianrose" <victor...@chromeangel.com> wrote in message
news:%R957.222900$%i7.126...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
>
> Carrin wrote:
>
> > C'est la vie (sp?, I failed French ;)
>
> Carrin, darling, your French is tres magnifique.
>
> Victorian Rose
Thank you . . . mon petite . . . um . . . couchon? no, that's piggie, and
only reserved for intimate situations *grin* . . . um . . . . mon petite
choo-choo (sp?) . . . that's supposed to be my little cabbage.
eeeeeeek
I give up:)
-Carrin
Matthew Ardill
> >
>
>
> Personally, I'm a little skeptical of either of your claims of
> expertise since in neither the US nor in Canada is this a customs
> issue, a fact that should be patently obvious to anyone whose ever done
> the paperwork.
Which isn't the case in Canada. We don't have an INS. Immigration
and Customs are tied in hand in hand. The Customs agents also work
hand in hand with the immigration services. Sheryl's point was that
it could all fall apart due to one asshole customs agent. An example
would be at Pierson international airport recently they kept a woman
for a full day and night saying she was going to claim refuge status
because she was black and had a british passport and an african
accent. They said they thought she was using false documents. As
Sheryl did say, it was very strict in Canada and that she could only
guess that it was that strict there.
> Performance Visas, just like every other Visa are
> administered by the INS. Despite the hyperbole and horror stories
> usually engendered by people who don't leave enough time, try to cut
> conrners or evade fees or simply don't know what the hell theyre doing,
> its really not hard. You fill out the forms, provide the supporting
> documentation, give them the $450 and wait. You need to leave at least
> 35 days from the submission of *all* of your documents. If youre not
> in an excluded category or coming from a rogue state, thats really all
> there is to it in 95% of the cases.
Which means that this is cutting it VERY close to the wire no?
> The only thing cusoms has anything to do with is equipment and if you
> have a valid visa and are smart enough to get an ATA carnet for another
> 200 pounds its a relatively painless proceedure.
Really? So my friend with a valid work visa in the US was turned away
at the border saying they didn't believe he had the right to work in
the US because the magic imigration fairies didn't like him? ;)
Matt
Sheryl Kirby
>
> > You haven't paid the venues in advance of ticket sales?
>
> This is _exactly_ the kind of out of your ass talking that
> creates rumors that are untrue. We have paid our deposits,
> and then some extra on our own accord, to all of the venues
> that are slated for the C7 weekend. Please do not add to
> the hysteria by creating more hysteria.
In Carrin's defense on this one... the deposit system C7 appears to be using
is standard practice for events such as this. There isn't one main method used
straight across the board, but depending on the venue, the promotor, and the
relationship between the two, the venue payment can go from 100% upfront,
partial deposit with the balance due on, or a few days before, the
performance/event, or 100% due at the time of the show. Again, it depends on
the relationship between the parties involved and the scale of the event.
> Our event _is_ secured, has been since early this year,
> with deposits for venues being put down about 3 to 4 months
> in advance of the event. As for you paying for your
> convention, either you're amazingly wealthy with mucho extra
> cash to toss around, or it was very small.
Line of credit.
> You don't know what the logistics of this event are and if
> you had been reading posts about this exact kind of thing,
> then you would have seen my posts which explained, over and
> over, again and again, that we are NOT JUST paying for a venue
> and a couple of bands . . . we have 3 days with many daytime
> activities that have to be housed somewhere, those cost money.
> On top of that, there are the venues (3 nights) and the bands
> . . . plus a multitude of other expenses, too many to list
> here.
Again, I'll come to Carrin's defense here, because each and every event has
its own set of trials and tribulations, rules and regulations, and financial
concerns. If the events pooch, then y'all have the right to complain about it,
but the *details* of pulling this all together, are really none of our
business. This is one area where I humbly suggest we let the committee do
their job.
> > * With a full Coil tour pending but looking promising (according to their
> > official web site)...
>
> Not until a distant future.
Next year.
> > * ...and a committee that has a few members who seem pretty determined to
> > talk down to anyone who voices a concern about this event, legitimate or
> > not...
>
> Maybe you're coming in a little late on this whole thing . . .
> and what you've missed is a lot of tongue biting on our end.
> Honestly, I've worked really hard to be diplomatic about a lot
> of things that most people wouldn't . . . and it just happens
> that I have decided to open my mouth a bit more opening and
> often just in the last few days. If it has come out as "talking
> down" it wouldn't be the first time it's happened in this forum,
> or any forum.
And those people familiar with what you're going through don't blame you a
bit. As I mentioned elsewhere, the diplomacy you've shown up to this point has
impressed me. But your decision to loosen the reins on yourself comes at a
time when your other committee memebers also to appear to have done the same,
and it's creating an impression of you guys doing more complaining that all
the rest of alt.gothic put together.
> > 2. Been FAR less smug and FAR more approachable about what you're doing,
> > ESPECIALLY in light of how some of the haters in this newsgroup view the
> > committee chairman. I've now watched the organization of about 4
> > Convergences. More than some people, but less than some, too. I've seen
> > some committee folks fly off the handle, seen some well-meaning committee
> > folks promise things they couldn't deliver on and screw people that way,
> > but I can't say that I've seen this level of hubris from any previous C*
> > committee, especially not this week.
>
> Approachable?
> There have been quite a lot of people who were honestly
> interested in finding out the truth, in getting actual facts
> and information, who have taken the time and emailed us to
> find out themselves. They weren't interested in confrontation
> in a public forum, they weren't just looking to create their
> own version of reality and propogate rumors. Those people have
> what they need, and have been able to make educated decisions
> as to whether to come, or not.
But there *were* people asking questions within this public forum, who asked
and expected answers publically because they knew the information they were
seeking would have been useful to everyone. It didn't seem like those
questions were getting answered, and it appeared that a great number of people
were in the dark about what was going on for a very long time.
> Not to mention you are talking about an absolutely HUGE
> event here, thousands and thousands of people were involved
> with Lollapalooza, and they were handled by a big corporation.
> We are talking about 1000 tickets, and everyone counts . . .
> we are not a corporate conglomerate either.
Which should make it *easier* to be able to offer refunds in the appropriate
amount should circumstances dictate that one of your bands can't play. Note,
that's not a *full* refund, I'm suggesting, but certainly an appropriate
percentage of the ticket price... for instance, divide the cost of the band
(that you wouldn't have to pay if they don't play), by the number of tickets
sold. It might work out to something as stupid as $3.32 per person, but it's
an act of goodwill that people would dearly appreciate should the situation
present itself. Hell, I bet if you *offered* it, most people wouldn't take it
anyway. But the goodwill in offering is what would be remembered.
Matthew Ardill
<snip>
>
>
> It isn't about the bands. At least, Convergence of Old was not about
> the bands. Not even a little. Not a smidgen; not one iota. It would have
> been attended, by the regulars of this newgroup for whom it was
> organized, if Ray Potts and the Country Fever band was the main event.
DAMN RIGHT! We agree once again, wonder of wonders. ;) I mean lets
be honest, how many people remember Convergence. I don't mean CII or
anything I mean numero uno (which was recently completly forgotten
when some one said by accident CII was the first). This is what it
needs to return to. This event is at a crossroads and I think we need
to reclaim it. Take back the convergence as it were.
Matt
<no animosity towards NYC just the way I feel>
Fross
mountain this has become.
i'm not speaking with any authority on *anything* here, but a lot of
people are either getting the facts wrong or spreading maliciousness
that i'd clear up stuff i know about, namely how/why c7rescue was
formed. again, i'm not involved with it in any way, but i watched it
happen, so there you go.
a bunch of NYC people had some information about new york (interesting
shops, cheap hotels, places to go, things to do etc) from a previous
convergence bid. instead of letting the collated information go to
waste, they offered it to the c7 committee. as far as i know, it was
refused. anyway, it wasn't used. so they decided to provide it
publically for people anyway.
this was the time of the quad room debacle and other things. among
the information was cheaper alternatives for hotels, and a list of
other things people could like to do while in new york. no "events"
as such.
however, interest in doing other stuff (day events, as c7 had at that
point not announced any firm ones, if i recall) grew in feedback, so a
bit more work was put in to it. the idea behind this was to provide
people with something extra that if they're in town for, they could
do.
ultimately a fair few people decided to go to new york that weekend
(or already lived there or nearby!) and wanted other things to do, as
they weren't attending cnovergence for one reason or another. hence
more events started popping up, including an evening one. this one
wasn't a counter-event so much as just pointing out that there was
another regular club night running that evening anyway, and voltaire
had decided (for his own reasons) to do a gig then.
to reiterate, there are no tickets for c7rescue or such, so there is
no budget, so they can't DO anything, it's more a compendium of stuff
to do in new york either instead of or around convergence. stuff that
already happens in new york.
imho, the c7rescue people acted well and in good faith, as did the c7
committee people. all the fingerpointing i've seen on this has been
originated from other people doing... well, whatever other people do.
so there you have it.
i can't not add my opinion to the band issue though ;) (this is
entirely my own opinion so you know what to do with it).
i agree with the fears that getting as big a band as coil could turn a
festival into a "coil plus extras" festival - indeed as several people
have pointed out whitby has had this dilemma in the past too.
however, the timing of it (announcing it just one month before the
event goes live, with only a couple of weeks to buy tickets) and the
limited promotion outside the relevant arenas (eg i havent seen c7
post to coil/world serpent mailing lists saying "hey! come see coil!")
should limit this to a bearable amount.
as other people have also pointed out, coil are actually touring
now/in the near future, having done some UK gigs and the treffen in
leipzig plus maybe some others, and the rumoured US tour next year, so
that diminishes it as well.
on the issue of whether the band lineup is "appropriate", there's only
one point i want to make. convergence is a net.goth event, and hence
the bands should be "things that net.goths like", no more no less. it
neednt be goth or electro or fricking apocalyptic military polka, as
long as people would be happy to hear it. bearing in mind you can
never please everyone. :)
personally i think the lineup is on the more eclectic borderline of
what a lot of net.goths i know like, so i'd be surprised if a lot of
people don't go away finding a band they didnt know they liked or two.
anyhow, i've droned on long enough.
fross
--
#include <disclaimer.h>
Scott Crawford
CONVERGENCE 7" <car...@carrin.org> wrote:
> > You haven't paid the venues in advance of ticket sales?
>
> This is _exactly_ the kind of out of your ass talking that
> creates rumors that are untrue. We have paid our deposits,
> and then some extra on our own accord, to all of the venues
> that are slated for the C7 weekend. Please do not add to
> the hysteria by creating more hysteria.
If asking a legitimate question about a point (incorrectly phrased or not)
made by a C7 committee member (in this case, Trystan) is "out of my ass
talking" and "creating more hysteria" in your opinion, then you've just
proven, before I've even really gotten started here, that I'm being fair
and correct in my assessment.
> > details aren't "ready for the public" yet), before you try to convince the
> > lemmings that "EVERYONE does things this way": a few friends of a friend
>
> "lemmings"? that's not talking down to anyone here, is it?
You're treating them like "lemmings" by throwing around words like
"hysteria" to describe any gripes voiced by people who would like to see
this event come off well. "You don't know what you're talking about.",
without even bothering to listen. Perhaps I don't sound like I do want you
guys to succeed, but why would I want Convergence to suck? What stake
would I have in wanting hundreds, if not thousands of people who are in
some way friends or acquaintances of mine, as well as myself, to have a
lousy time, or get cheated financially?
I've seen a lot of your detractors in here and elsewhere; I believe I
called THEM "cranks", "haters", etc. in my last post or two. I even called
one of them a "basehead"! I'm equal opportunity!
To get more serious about this for a moment (since you obviously missed my
"tongue-in-cheek" warning in the last post, or chose to be too sour to
enjoy my unique brand of humor), I DON'T agree with a lot of your
detractors. I just noticed something (specifically, the "no refund policy"
on an event with Coil headlining) that disturbed me, and chose to bring it
to the forefront where everyone could see it, and it could be addressed
publicly.
Have Coil been announced as appearing at C7? Yes.
Are you offering refunds if they don't, to people who you may specifically
hook into attending/participating with Coil's name? No.
Am I lying here? Hell no.
I'm still a little new at this Unix stuff, but let's see if I get this right...
The truth!=hysteria
Asking reasonable questions of people who you're paying to provide a
service!=hysteria
> Our event _is_ secured, has been since early this year,
Well then, if what you say is true, then with all due respect, perhaps you
should suggest that Trystan has her story straight before making comments
about your financing in a public forum, or not make comments at all on the
subject.
> with deposits for venues being put down about 3 to 4 months
> in advance of the event. As for you paying for your
> convention, either you're amazingly wealthy with mucho extra
> cash to toss around, or it was very small.
Neither. In fact, I was unemployed at the time. I financed the event by
selling things on the 'net, and got loans from folks for the remainder of
the balance. We're not talking "deposits", either. We're talking PAID IN
FULL. Sizewise, it wasn't a Convergence (probably about 1/3 the size of
C's 1-4), but it was a mammoth undertaking, logistically speaking, and we
found creative ways to do it (sponsorship, donations, etc.) at a price
that was reasonable for attendees.
> You don't know what the logistics of this event are and if
> you had been reading posts about this exact kind of thing,
> then you would have seen my posts which explained, over and
> over, again and again, that we are NOT JUST paying for a venue
> and a couple of bands . . . we have 3 days with many daytime
> activities that have to be housed somewhere, those cost money.
> On top of that, there are the venues (3 nights) and the bands
> . . . plus a multitude of other expenses, too many to list
> here.
Sounds like poor fiscal planning to me. Perhaps the committee could open
their books at some point, and prove otherwise. I've read through the
events itinerary often, and it seems like there's a great deal of excess
involved, even looking at things from the point of view of someone who'd
be interested in every event you guys have planned.
> > * With a full Coil tour pending but looking promising (according to their
> > official web site)...
>
> Not until a distant future.
Unless you're Coil, or their management, comments like that sound eerily
"Dark Harvest III"-esque of you. They'll most likely be over here within
the next 18 months if the "Backwards" album is (as the C7 web site states)
due out on Nothing Records next year (Did you confirm this with Nothing as
well as Coil before posting that information?). Not quite "a distant
future" in my opinion, although your mileage may vary.
> > * ...a list of bands that, unless you guys announce that Xmal thing I
> > suggested, pretty much looks underwhelming at the moment...
>
> Again, there are MANY other events and activities going on
> . . . but you don't want to be a lemming . . . so maybe it's
> an event that isn't for you.
Sarcasm really doesn't become you, and you're making your event look cheap
and small by using it.
> > * ...and a committee that has a few members who seem pretty determined to
> > talk down to anyone who voices a concern about this event, legitimate or
> > not...
>
> Maybe you're coming in a little late on this whole thing . . .
> and what you've missed is a lot of tongue biting on our end.
And a real lack of information for MONTHS leading up to your formal
on-sale announcements, etc. No, I've been keeping tabs...checking the web
site periodically, reading alt.gothic when I have the chance (not usually
here this religiously, but again, this is something that concerns me...),
and most importantly, listening to a lot of your potential attendees (most
of whom have no anti-Cliff agenda) tell me that there's been little formal
information disseminated for long periods of time, between your
announcements.
Maybe you shouldn't bite so hard. It's not a chew toy, you know. ;)
> Honestly, I've worked really hard to be diplomatic about a lot
> of things that most people wouldn't . . . and it just happens
> that I have decided to open my mouth a bit more opening and
> often just in the last few days. If it has come out as "talking
> down" it wouldn't be the first time it's happened in this forum,
> or any forum.
And it isn't any less ugly than any of the previous attempts.
> But, your addressing this post as "People of Cartoonland", or
> calling the people who are interested in Convergence "lemmings"
> . . . well, that's really respectful, isn't it?
It's called "humor". You oughta try it sometime. Makes people happier than
flat, bitter sarcasm, in most cases. :D
> > ...I don't think it's a risk that I'm likely to take, and
> it's certainly
> > not a risk I'm going to recommend that any of my fence-sitting friends and
> > acquaintances take at this point. Don't worry, though. You'll most likely
> > get your money, and that's your primary concern at this point, correct?
>
> If making money was our concern, we wouldn't have volunteered
> to host a Convergence . . . for the 150th time - we are not going
> to make ANY money off this event. At this point, we don't even
> know if we will break-even . . . we, the Committee members, are
> even paying for our own tickets!
That's mighty generous of you, but are you sure you guys can afford them?
They are mighty expensive. And hey, what if Coil has to cancel? ;)
See? Comedy! Humor! A veritable cornucopia of chuckles, designed to make
light of a somewhat unpleasant situation!
Repeat this with me, like a mantra: "If a Convergence can't break even
with Coil playing and a $60-80 ticket price, then someone has horribly
mismanaged the money."
> > To be fair here, I know first-hand what it's like to get the shit kicked
> > out of you in a public forum by ingrates for wanting to break even, and it
> > SUCKS, but I DID pay up front, and it doesn't sound like you guys did, so
> > on at least one part of the issue, this is kind of justified.
>
> You host a CONVENTION of this size, and then I would honestly
> like to have this conversation with you . . . but until you do,
> you don't know what it's like . . . period.
There's that "talking down" thing again, Carrin.
We haven't lived each other's lives, and I'm not claiming to live yours,
so don't even try to claim that you've lived mine without some
fact-checking, at minimum. All I did in the above paragraph is describe a
situation that I was in some years back, that just about mirrors
Convergence's annual "public relations" situation. There's probably still
plenty of documented proof that I went through HELL doing Electronicon
archived on Google Groups, and if you want, I probably have a few megs of
IRC logs SOMEWHERE that I can send you, as well. (I'll need about a week
to go through discs, most likely...) Very similar situation, only I
handled everything from the PR to the web site to driving one of the
attendees to the Franklin Institute so he could see the video game exhibit
before he caught his bus. No 18 member committee, I had about 5 who really
stuck with it, and only 1 of those that was full-time.
All the stuff I see on a.g. every year around this time...people griping
about money, people claiming that I was ruining a scene by commercializing
it, people yelling about not being included in the planning...you name it,
I've heard it. Very little, if any sleep leading up to and during the
event. Theft of personal property by the attendees that I worked hard to
entertain. It can be ugly. I'm at least somewhat familiar with the turf,
and there's proof of that in writing in a bunch of different places
online, if you care to check.
What I'm saying here is that I truly, genuinely sympathize, but that
sympathy isn't enough for me to give you guys the thumbs up as you lift
your leg and pee on people you volunteered to serve. You should do right
by these folks, even the ones who are shitting on you, just as I did in my
situation, at my own great personal expense.
> Approachable?
> There have been quite a lot of people who were honestly
> interested in finding out the truth, in getting actual facts
> and information, who have taken the time and emailed us to
> find out themselves. They weren't interested in confrontation
> in a public forum, they weren't just looking to create their
> own version of reality and propogate rumors. Those people have
> what they need, and have been able to make educated decisions
> as to whether to come, or not.
Not everyone reads the fine print. I wanted to make sure they knew it was
there as soon as I found it, and see about getting you guys to amend said
fine print. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I highly doubt we'd be having this
detailed and extended of a dialogue via email, because you would only have
one person to answer to. Here, you've got your entire community watching,
and curious as to how you'll handle something that I'd bet a lot of people
see as a faux pas on your part.
I'm asking solid, fact-based, reasonable questions. You're calling me a
spreader of hysteria, someone who talks out my ass, and someone who's
looking to create my own version of reality, at last score.
"Approachable?"
> > In the event of band cancellations at concerts, refunds are OFTEN given,
> > more often than not, in fact. A few examples, off the top of my head:
> > Monster Magnet had to bow out of the Cult tour just last weekend, because
>
> A concert, with one main band . . . and mucho funds from a
> record label backing their tour, plus advertising funds . . .
> doesn't really match up in comparison.
Then stay out of the big name band game, and bring people in from your own
community, exclusively, or those national or international acts that you
can AFFORD on a reasonable budget, with (most importantly) a reasonable
ticket price. DIY. Don't get in over your head.
> and I've made my point . . . C7 doesn't compare to the kind of
> funding that those types of festivals have . . . there will be
> no record label providing ALL the bands . . . there will be no
> big ass banners for stuff like Depends or Colgate.
Then why try to make this something that you can't back up financially, or
have to gouge attendees to finance? Do you have some kind of focus group
survey that told you that "this is what the people of alt.gothic want from
Convergence" that substantiates your reasons for acting in this manner?
> > When I ran Electronicon (the first international classic video game fan
> > convention - site archived at http://home.earthlink.net/~sdcrawford/econ/
> > for a few more weeks, then moving to a new server) in 1997, I offered
> > refunds, and I believe I even gave a few to people whose travel plans fell
> > through last minute (which was a stretch on my part, and totally not
> > required, but hey, I'm the man...). There were a few registered attendees
> > who no-showed, too, and if they asked, I would've gladly refunded their
> > money, "break-even" or not. Of course, once again, the venue was paid for
> > in advance, so I COULD make those decisions.
>
> You're an anomaly, or maybe a saint. I'm impressed and I hope
> you were still able to make money off the event . . . but that's
> not the case here.
I prefer the saint thing. "Scott Crawford, Patron Saint of My Big, Black
Cock" has a nice ring to it, no?
> > Well, there ya go. I've said my piece. Feel free to pick this apart at
> > will, kids. It's just some guy that never participates on a.g. until
> > something affects him directly's two cents. Maybe, if there's another
> > Convergence, I should volunteer to be on the committee, or at least advise
> > them on some stuff, so I have "room to talk".
>
> I mentioned before . . . if you do volunteer for a Convergence
> Committee, and you participate . . . I'd honestly like to talk
> to you afterwards.
Well, that's mighty gracious of you, Miss Carrin! I may do that, JUST so
you'll grant me an audience! ;) Seriously, to those of you considering
making a C8 proposal: I might not be able to do anything full-time, as
I've got a lot on the burner right now, but as many people know, I'm damn
near always willing to listen and offer advice. The offer's on the table.
To bottom line this, so I can get back to selling stupid crap from the
80's and cursing on my web site (Which you all should be reading
regularly. Bad lemmings! Oops! I better not let anyone hear me calling you
that, or they'll say I'm being disrespectful...):
I'm asking you guys one more time to offer and grant any requested refunds
on tickets purchased after 7/17/01 if Coil don't appear for whatever
reason, and to provide the net.goth community with written proof that
you've got their paperwork in line.
It'd also be good if, despite the lengths to which people can and will
stretch your patience, you guys were a little nicer to people who you
volunteered to serve. The flamers are only going to get worse if they see
you losing your cool. Be better people than them.
And, of course, having a sense of humor is always a plus. It helps, you know? :D
That's all.
Scott Goddamn Crawford
Patron Saint of My Big, Black Cock (Thanks, Carrin!)
http://www.mybigblackcock.com/
Michael Johnson
>That's sort of how it's done in Canada, except the $450 is paid by the band at
>the port of entry, it's not done in advance.
$450? In the UK, it's free!
>.......once the paperwork is
>processed, it's sent to the promoter who then has to forward it to the band to
>present to the appropriate people when they enter the country.
Yep, that's how it's done in the UK....
If you're interested, all the info relating to bands working in the UK
is on the web - this is the main site: http://www.workpermits.gov.uk]
You can actually download the application forms here:
http://www.workpermits.gov.uk/download/
The relevant forms for bands are those listed for 'Sportspeople and
Entertainers'. I'm told by bands who've gone both ways, as 'twere,
that the application forms for the UK are impressively simple compared
to the forms required for working in the USA. However, I've never seen
a US work-visa form, so I don't know how true this might be...
> This Visa
>allows them to work in the country for the dates specified; in Canada, it
>doesn't necessarily get them *into* the country. I've had bands come across
>with everything in perfect order who still got delayed for hours just because
>the immigration officer thought they looked "weird".
I don't think such a situation can arise when a band enters the UK,
because if you've got the correct documentation, the immigration
people *have* to let you in. This is quite a recent thing: until
(IIRC) October last year, everything was still subject to the
immigration officer's 'discretion' at the port of entry, regardless of
whether the paperwork was present and correct or not. That's all been
swept away now (I believe as part of some Europe-wide effort to
harmonise immigration law) - so that's one less element of uncertainty
to contend with.
>I've also had the HRDC officer who processed the original paperwork tell me
>one set of information and then had the band show up to enter the country and
>be told another set of information
Of course, no legislation, however enlightened, can totally remove the
Fuck-Up Factor...
>> The only thing cusoms has anything to do with is equipment and if you
>> have a valid visa and are smart enough to get an ATA carnet for another
>> 200 pounds its a relatively painless proceedure.
Bands entering the UK with their instruments/gear carried with them as
personal baggage don't have to bother with anything like this. If they
were importing vast amounts of hardware I dare say it would be a
different story, but then any half-way sensible band would just get
their long-suffering promoter to rent what they need, thus making it
unnecessary to bring it. I mean, why freight a Marshall 4x12 cab over
the Atlantic at vast expense when you can rent one in London for a
tenner a night?
>Equipment and merchandise in Canada, since the government charges the band GST
>(goods and services tax) on merchandise when they come into the country, then
>the band has to file a claim when they get home to get back the GST on unsold
>items.
A common way around this kind of thing for bands playing in the UK is
to get their merchandise actually *made* in the UK. I have an exotic
Californian Switchblade Symphony T-shirt which was actually knocked
out by a printing firm in north London....
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions > 1995 - 2001 > http://www.nemesis.to
They think it's all over. It is now!
Margaret A Sawyer
> on tickets purchased after 7/17/01 if Coil don't appear for whatever
> reason, and to provide the net.goth community with written proof that
> you've got their paperwork in line.
>
See, I'm not too keen on this particular idea. I know several people who
are about as rabid about Snog as they are about Coil. I think if /any/
of the bands that have promised to play back out last minute, at least a
partial refund should be given.(one proportional to the amount that was
added to the ticket price to secure the band)
Gothpat
Johnson) had this to say:
>A common way around this kind of thing for bands playing in the UK is
>to get their merchandise actually *made* in the UK. I have an exotic
>Californian Switchblade Symphony T-shirt which was actually knocked
>out by a printing firm in north London....
>
Ditto Sunshine Blind (had t-shirts done in England before touring UK).
GothPat
Scott Crawford
<msaw...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 18-Jul-101 Re: C7 - Band Announcement
> .. by Scott Crawford@mybigblac
> > I'm asking you guys one more time to offer and grant any requested refunds
> > on tickets purchased after 7/17/01 if Coil don't appear for whatever
> > reason, and to provide the net.goth community with written proof that
> > you've got their paperwork in line.
> >
>
> See, I'm not too keen on this particular idea. I know several people who
> are about as rabid about Snog as they are about Coil. I think if /any/
> of the bands that have promised to play back out last minute, at least a
> partial refund should be given.(one proportional to the amount that was
> added to the ticket price to secure the band)
This has been mentioned/suggested earlier in this thread (I believe it was
by Sheryl Kirby), and it's not such a terrible idea. It's not the entirety
of what I think the committee should do (given the timing and nature of
the Coil announcement, I think full restitution is in order to anyone
baited into buying tickets after it...), but it's SOMETHING.
A good deal of this discussion could've also been averted if, as
Convergences have done in the past, individual tickets to
Friday/Saturday/Sunday/day events/etc. had been offered. More paperwork,
sure, but hey, you guys volunteered. Plus, no one gets forced to pay for
any events that they have no interest in or intention of participating in,
just to keep from getting "locked out" of the others.
-S
st Albatross
Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7 wrote:
> and I often wonder how just such rationale allowed
> me to volunteer for such an exercise in futility . . . meaning the
> "spokesperson" aspect of it and all.
When people in Seattle started talking about 'wouldn't it be great to
host Convergence' I ran for the exits. I didn't want anything to do with
it outside my personal but symbolic support. I wouldn't do anything that
involved me trying to please the net.goth community ... unless I was
paid a lot of money. Cause frankly I can see no other just compensation
for having to deal with a group of people containing such an active,
vocal subset of spiteful, black hearted weenies who apparently developed
their social skills, not to mention their sense of reality, in chat
rooms.
> You're right, it wasn't about the bands, and for some people,
> it's still not. But be on this end and you'll realize that's
> long gone. People whine about the fact that there aren't any
> bands in the proposal, then they whine about the first band
> selections -they're not good enough, then we get overloaded
> with band suggestions, and then hate mail when those bands
> aren't selected, then there's whine to be had that the band
> selections are overblown . . .
No doubt those days are past. They might have been preserved to some
degree by a committee who actively downplayed the bands and even the
scope of the events. In other words, a committee who said right from the
first proposal, 'We are quite possibly not going to get the greatest
bands, but all possible effort will go into providing you with a great,
goth environment and a few appropriate activities that are also
conducive to your desire to hook up with your friends in an unfamiliar
but exciting city.' And then continued to say that exact thing right
through every bozo who asked why Joy Division or their best friends
garage band wasn't the main event. Maybe even a statement that could be
forwarded to everyone who objected to your handling of bands. 'The C7
Committee is grateful for your concern. We do not believe that it is in
the interest of Convergence to concentrate too much effort on the
entertainment. We are working hard to provide you with a great goth
environment to enjoy the company of your friends, and hope you will
attend.' Then, naturally, you'd be attacked for being nonrepsonsive or
impersonal. Whether such a proposal could win the vote is another
question.
I don't know how you could of kept your local politics - which, as we
remember, scared enough people off NY to keep you guys from winning in
the past - from causing so much trouble. As a veteran goth watcher, I've
got say it even has me a little flabbergasted. Maybe some sort of
facilitator would help? I've heard this guy is a real professional:
http://www.ouchytheclown.com/meet.htm
Anyway - if nothing else - New York has provided people all over the
country with some fine high (or low) drama to discuss. And it is being
discussed! I know I'm having a lot of fun looking on.
Really, I hope that your Convergence meets your expectations. :)
st Albatross
--
"AMOR. MAN IN A COMA, MA'AM. NEMO. AMEN." - Geoffrey Hill
Uadjit
"Carrin -for CONVERGENCE 7" <car...@carrin.org> wrote:
> C'est la vie (sp?, I failed French ;)
>
> -Carrin
"C'est la vie" means "This is the life!"
The equivalent French expression to "That's life." is "C'est la guerre!"
literally "That's war."
Appropriate to this conversation, ja?
Uadjit
kest
><rad...@spam.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:
>> documentation, give them the $450 and wait. You need to leave at least
>> 35 days from the submission of *all* of your documents. If youre not
>> in an excluded category or coming from a rogue state, thats really all
>> there is to it in 95% of the cases.
>
>Which means that this is cutting it VERY close to the wire no?
No. You're making the assumption that the paperwork was just submitted. A
lot of other people around here have somehow been making the assumption
that this was in some way a last minute thing 'just to get people to buy
tickets'. Helllloooooo? Something like this takes a hell of a lot of work
to pull off, and with all the flack that the committee has been getting,
there's no way in hell they'd announce something like this unless the
paperwork had _cleared_ already.
voice of reason,
k
--
You had to be there.
Ian Sturrock
<she...@stainedproductions.com> gibbers
>Coil fans are desperate enough to pay $60 - $80 to see the band; even if it
>means buying one of those stupid all-inclusive weekend passes and only using
>it to see Coil. They've never played live in North America, and only once or
>twice in the UK over the past 20 years or so.
They play fairly frequently in London - they just don't advertise their
gigs.
--
"Uh, do you guys," ventured the blue one, "ever get into role-playing games?
Like Dungeons and Dragons?"
"Those of us high in the experiential hierarchy find conventional D and D
stultifying and repetitive. We prefer to stage live-action role-playing
scenarios. But that's not for just anyone." (_The Big U_, Neal Stephenson)
Matthew Ardill
"kest" <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote:
> No. You're making the assumption that the paperwork was just submitted. A
> lot of other people around here have somehow been making the assumption
> that this was in some way a last minute thing 'just to get people to buy
> tickets'. Helllloooooo? Something like this takes a hell of a lot of work
> to pull off, and with all the flack that the committee has been getting,
> there's no way in hell they'd announce something like this unless the
> paperwork had _cleared_ already.
Usually there has to be a confirmation before filing the paper work that's
all. Thank you for the even handed response.
Matt
<who has helped organize something bigger then this thankyou ever so much>
Victorianrose
Jodi wrote:
> Greylock wrote:
>
> >Last episode pixie <ei...@mindspring.com> said:
> >>I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
> >
> >You're missing out.
> >Go buy Horse Rotovator.
>
> Indeed.
>
> And the Hellraiser "Soundtrack".
>
> And possibly "Scatology".
>
> That's about all that's essential in my books. In that order.
I would have to add Gold is the Metal to this. Mmmmmm.
Victorian Rose
rad...@spam.earthlink.net
Ardill <mar...@home.com> wrote:
> "kest" <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote:
> > No. You're making the assumption that the paperwork was just submitted. A
> > lot of other people around here have somehow been making the assumption
> > that this was in some way a last minute thing 'just to get people to buy
> > tickets'. Helllloooooo? Something like this takes a hell of a lot of work
> > to pull off, and with all the flack that the committee has been getting,
> > there's no way in hell they'd announce something like this unless the
> > paperwork had _cleared_ already.
>
> Usually there has to be a confirmation before filing the paper work that's
> all. Thank you for the even handed response.
>
Conformation that the gig is booked does not equal public announcement.
It is remotely possible, in fact even quite sensible to assume that as
this negotiation has been ongoing for quite some time and that C7 held
off until they were absolutely sure of the gig that they might not have
waited until they told everybody to file the visa application.
Jim Dugan
rad...@spam.earthlink.net
Ardill <mar...@home.com> wrote:
> <rad...@spam.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:
> > >
> >
> >
> > Personally, I'm a little skeptical of either of your claims of
> > expertise since in neither the US nor in Canada is this a customs
> > issue, a fact that should be patently obvious to anyone whose ever done
> > the paperwork.
>
> Which isn't the case in Canada. We don't have an INS.
Never said you did.
> Immigration
> and Customs are tied in hand in hand.
No, the CCRA and the HRDC are completely separate and independant
agencies with completely separrate mandates and authorities.
> The Customs agents also work
> hand in hand with the immigration services.
Insofar as the work at the same place. The fact remaions that a
Canadian customs offical has utterly no say in whether you enter the
country and you do not apply to the CCRA for visas or work permits.
> Sheryl's point was that
> it could all fall apart due to one asshole customs agent. An example
> would be at Pierson international airport recently they kept a woman
> for a full day and night saying she was going to claim refuge status
> because she was black and had a british passport and an african
> accent. They said they thought she was using false documents.
In other words, they detained her based on credible evidence until they
could determine the veracity of her application. How strange. The
difference here is that people falsely claim to be refgees each and
every day in the hopes of emigrating. Few people claim to musicians to
spend a weekend in NY when they could far more easily get a tourist
visa.
> As
> Sheryl did say, it was very strict in Canada and that she could only
> guess that it was that strict there.
>
> > Performance Visas, just like every other Visa are
> > administered by the INS. Despite the hyperbole and horror stories
> > usually engendered by people who don't leave enough time, try to cut
> > conrners or evade fees or simply don't know what the hell theyre doing,
> > its really not hard. You fill out the forms, provide the supporting
> > documentation, give them the $450 and wait. You need to leave at least
> > 35 days from the submission of *all* of your documents. If youre not
> > in an excluded category or coming from a rogue state, thats really all
> > there is to it in 95% of the cases.
>
> Which means that this is cutting it VERY close to the wire no?
No. You have utterly no idea when they filed the P1 application.
> > The only thing cusoms has anything to do with is equipment and if you
> > have a valid visa and are smart enough to get an ATA carnet for another
> > 200 pounds its a relatively painless proceedure.
>
> Really? So my friend with a valid work visa in the US was turned away
> at the border saying they didn't believe he had the right to work in
> the US because the magic imigration fairies didn't like him? ;)
How the hell should I know? I can think of a good dozen completely
valid reasons for him to be turned away but I can hardly evaluate it
based on a toss off second hand account.
Jim Dugan
Sheila Marie
> Last episode pixie <ei...@mindspring.com> said:
> >I don't think I have ever heard Coil in my life.
>
> You're missing out.
> Go buy Horse Rotovator.
>
the same thing with Snog. Its funny (to me anyway) while it seems everyone
is jumping around going "OH GOD, SNOG _AND_ COIL, I'M GONNA DIEEEEE!!!!!!"
I'm just shrugging my shoulders and going "huh?" ;)
Just for the record, and not that anyone cares, I won't be at C7. Gonna be
in NOLA that weekend to party with a friend who's graduating. Long time
friend of my hubby's and while I really really really really would like to
meet people from here, this takes precedence.
Sheila Marie, just informed that we own a Coil CD, (listens to a lil of it),
ok, maybe I'm missing something here, but I would not pay money to see this
band in concert...
pixie
wrote:
>But it has been stated that Coil currently doesn't perform any of the
>songs from these albums. I have to admit that I wouldn't be too keen
>to see them if all they did was ambient/trance/techno.
*shudder*
>But, pixie, do check out the ones mentioned abouve.
>Their version of "Tainted Love" is quite wonderful in a sad sort of
>way.
Ooh, I love covers of that song. (I have the My Ruin cover in my head
at the moment because it was the last song I had on at work.)
Anywhow, I will. Because H*ydin has never steered me wrong, and Scott
Crawford is secretly the love of my life.
*Grin*
pixie
--
"In conclusion, I have dominated the world and you are
all my faithful servants. Goodbye."
Joseph Max
kest wrote:
Thank you, kest. That is exactly the case. In fact, I'm sure you can attest
to the conversation we had when we first met face-to-face, when I told you we
had a "big surprise" in the works for a band that would blow everyone away,
but I couldn't tell you who it was? How many months ago was that?
This was not a last minute decision -- we've been working on it for a LONG
time, and we'd be damned if we were going to announce it until we were SURE
it was going to happen.
- J:.M:.555
The Evil Chemist
> The supposed rescue squad are the ones trying to break Convergence up into
> little cliques. Wasn't the whole point of Convergence to "converge" & come
> together? Noooo, divergence is more to their tastes.
We never wanted your convergence. We told you. We didn't want bigger
bands, more expensive tickets, expensive hotel, superfluous events we have
to pay for when we don't want to go to all of them.
All this was ignored.
So when you what you want is not available, you DIY.
Convergence was A DIY event. It was a pooling of resources, a gathering of
people, but not once has the committee listened to a damn thing anyone has
said.
Frankly, I'm glad there's something else to do, b/c there is no way I am
going to spend a crap load of money unnecessarily when all I really wanted
to do is bullshit with Siobhan over a few beers. I can do this now without
spending $70 on bands who I don't think should be at convergence.
And yeah it's just my opinion, but I'm the type of person that will not
support something that goes against my idealisms, including my idealism of
what convergence is suppose to be.
> The real Convergence staff tried to give the community a gift. A wonderful
> event, full of fun & surprises, with plenty of spaces for ppl to socialize.
> We brought in 2 bigger name bands bec. we thot you deserved something really
> special.
We didn't want bigger bands. We told you that. Coil& snog are simply
Cliff's dream. All you have to do is look at his webpage. Convergence only
gave him the money to fulfill his dream. Who are you kidding?
There are a zillion bands to choose from. Coil is his favorite.
It isn't an accident. He put it in his NYC propsal several years ago.
It was his dream from the beginning. Giving us something special is a load
of crap. Giving him something special is more accurate.
> After all, you asked us to create this event for you. Of course, we didn't
> know then that, while a large majority of you were happy to vote for us, a
> whiney little group of you would work against us at every turn.
I was quite civil throught the whole thing, even when you spent you hours
online slagging us. I'm making up for lost time, since you seem to be in
the mood.
My hidden agenda is simply one of polar philosophies.
Convergence has always been a DIY event, a pooling of resources a
gathering of people, a showcasing of local bands.
When I see COIL and Snog on the bill, I think of bands like Gossamer,<who
actually post here>, Diva Destruction, Abney Park, Stromkern. Really
talented NA bands who could really break loose with continental exposure
of Convergence. The new Azoic's lp is brilliant, They would completely
wowwed convergence. Crap I would've liked to see Brickbats play.
But cliff just has his vision.
He really has no clue as to what the people want.
I'm not satisfied with anything, b/c eveything is against all that
convergence was.
If I would've seen even a small gesture like breaking up the ticket
prices, so folk who can't come in on friday don't have to pay for friday
and saturday's events, you may have given me something to pause about.
But this little request was against the "structure" a structure that
burdens the atendees, whom are suppose to be the focus of the event.
jv
--
And if I say I hate this place.......... Don't take it as personal
And just cos I want to kill somebody.......Doesn't mean to say that I will
And I don't think that that makes me crazy..And anyway I'm way past caring
The Evil Chemist
> As for 'Coil not a goth band' I'm surprised that you of all people
> would say that. Because damn, Masochistic Religion, now they were
> sooooo goth.
Massochistic Religion was a local band. One of the original intentions of
convergence was so a city could showcase their local bands in front of a
continental audience.
*shakes head* why am I bothering talking about the intentions of
convergence to someone who obviously is clueless to what convergence is.