Bastards
Tom and Penny Wilson
I spent last week at the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace
at Standford University. One of the Archives I was resaerching made
passing mention of an illigitimate daughter born to Princess Thyra of
Denmark, younger sister of Queen Alexandra of England and Empress Marie
of Russia. I believe that she was 16 or 17 when the child was born in
1871, and this may have added fuel to the fire of Queen Victoria's less
than positive impression of the Danish Royal Family -- "...Alix's family
are bad..." she wrote to her daughter. Although this information was
not in conjunction to my research, I mentioned it to the proctor in the
reading room, and we had quite a conversation regarding these by-blows,
of which there are apparently quite a few.
Aside from Princess Thyra, Marie of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, and
Maria-Sophia of the Two Sicilies, what other Pechvogeln are there? What
happens to these children? Do any of them ever meet their royal
parent? Are they financially provided for, and so any of them ever
receive titles? (I am most curious about those illigitimate children
born to Princesses, rather than Princes, as Princes seem to celebrate
their off-spring as proof of their manhood -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink,
what a lad!)
As for the Princesses themselves, what happens to them? Why did Marie
of Mecklenburg never marry, while Princess Thyra did? And is this why
Thyra's marriage was seemingly less splendid than those of her sisters?
I am interested not so much in the "Oooh-Aaah Factor" of gossip(although
that's good, too:-)), but rather in the sociology of the royal classes
when these things happen -- the closing of ranks and the silence that
greets researchers(even now in the case of Princess Thyra -- Candace has
told me that she knows of a person completely cold-shouldered by the
Danish Archive upon such an inquiry).
What do you think would be the situation today? Currently, we have the
case of Princess Stephanie, who shoots out illigitimate children with
the facility of Patsy's "lawn-sprinkler" mother in Absolutely Fabulous,"
but I've seen disparaging comments like "whore" applied to her here in
this newsgroup. Would we say the same of the girl down the street? Or
our own daughters? Or do we apply to royalty standards we wouldn't like
to have to meet ourselves, and do they apply these standards to
themselves? -- after all, these things do "happen!" What would be the
implications of Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden producing a bastard?
Lotta questions, I know, but an interesting topic, I think, and one
which explores the larger questions of traditions, and does royalty ever
get to enter the latter part of the twentieth century?
Penny
Lisa Davidson
It might better facilitate discussion if you would avoid the often
offensive term "bastard". A child born in these circumstances is not at
fault. Indeed, if anyone could be said to be at fault, it would have to
be the child's unmarried parents.
I recall that Thyra's child was adopted out of the royal circle.
Lisa
Marlene A Koenig
the child would have no dynastic rights. There is no provision
in the Swedish Constitution for legitimated or adopted kids
for succession purposes, as exists in Monaco.
What's this nonsense about Marie of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
never marrying - indeed, she did, twice.
She was first married to Georges Comte Jametel, and they
had a son and daughter. They were divorced in 1908. marie
married for a second time to prince Julius Ernst of Lippe,
and had further issue.\
Thyra's daughter is believed to be Maria Katharina
Jensen, who was born November 8, 1871 and died Aug 14, 1964
She married in Copenhagen on May 16, 1902 to Frode Hjalar
Christian Ployen-Holstein --
the father is said to be one first Lieutenant Vilhelm
Frimann Marcher, who killed himself on the night of Janu 4/5,
1872 after a confrontation with Thyra's father.
You will find a reference to this is Bo Bramsen's Huset
Gluecksborg. It is in Danish.
Off the top of my head, I can think of two examples of
fathers and illegitimate children. Albert, the Last Duke of Schleswig
Holstein, a grandson of Victoria, fathered one daughter, Valerie
Marie, whom he acknowledged ten days before his death in 1931.
Also - Prince Andrej of Yugoslavia (who charged his first wife
with adultery, but at the same time, he was having a relationship
with Kira of Leiningen -- in 1961, she gave birth to their
daughter, Lavinia. Various genealogies, except mine, say she was an
adopted child. She was in fact their child (Andrej's name
is not on the birth certificate, but she is indeed
Andrej's daughter. However, Kira and Andrej did adopt their own
daughter.
More recently, Prince Heinrich of Hannover has acknowledged a
son, Oskar Nicks, whose mother, Desiree Nicks, is an entertainer of
sorts in Berlin.
--
and author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
published by Rosvall Royal Books
Publisher of Royal Book News, the only newsletter for and about
Royal Books
arturo...@gs.com
Hi there...just a quick note....Marie of Mecklenburg-Strelitz did marry...in
fact twice...she first married Count de Jametel...a disreputably obscure papal
count...who made her life miserable, physically absued her and is purported to
have killed her youngest brother Carl Borwin in a duel...she later on divorced
this creep and married a second time. Her second husband was a member of a
German princely family...you will read about in the ERHJ!
Arturo Beeche
Webmaster and Bookseller at http://www.eurohistory.com
Publisher of The European Royal Histroy Journal
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Marlene A Koenig
however, Marie of Mecklenburg did marry, and marry twice and had children.
Thyra's marriage was not as brilliant as Alix's and Dagmar's, but it was
not bad considering she was not pure when she went to the marriage bed.
She married the heir to the Hanoverian kingdom, which in 1866 had been
annexed by Prussia.
It is unlikely that she ever met her natural daughter. Marie of Mecklenburg
never did -- and it is utter nonsense to say that the Danish would give a
cold-shoulder to all of this as Thyra's child is discussed in Bo Bramsen's
book, Huset Glucksborg, a 2-volume history of the Danish royal family
(and various branches) that was published in Danish some years ago. Much of
the information apparently came from the Glucksburg archives in Germany -
but the late Prince Friedrich Ferdinand would not admit that. Thyra was
his grandmother. Conversely, the Glucksburg archives came up trumps
with information on Valerie Marie Arenberg -(Albert of SH's illegitimate
daughter.)
But for most male royals at that time - if they fathered a child, they
certainly did not acknowledge it. The Prince of Wales may have fathered
a few illegitimate children but just about all his ladies were married,
and thus, any children would be acknowledged by the wife's husband.
Legally, the husband was the father of the wife's child.
A change in status from the days of George III's sons, such as William
IV, who acknowledged his bastards. He father ten by Dorothy Jordan =
and one more by an unnamed woman.
One of George III's daughter's also had a child out of wedlock.
Tom and Penny Wilson
Marlene A Koenig wrote:
> Penny - I saw the followups before the your original post --
Yours is the only follow-up I've seen :-) My server must be very slow!
> however, Marie of Mecklenburg did marry, and marry twice and had children.
Hmm. Is there another that perhaps we are confusing with Marie? This was a
very plain German princess.
> Thyra's marriage was not as brilliant as Alix's and Dagmar's, but it was
> not bad considering she was not pure when she went to the marriage bed.
> She married the heir to the Hanoverian kingdom, which in 1866 had been
> annexed by Prussia.
You know, I was thinking about this after I wrote about it -- was there any
other possible match equal to those of her sisters? Did she actually do as well
as she would have anyway?
> It is unlikely that she ever met her natural daughter. Marie of Mecklenburg
> never did -- and it is utter nonsense to say that the Danish would give a
> cold-shoulder to all of this as Thyra's child is discussed in Bo Bramsen's
> book, Huset Glucksborg, a 2-volume history of the Danish royal family
> (and various branches) that was published in Danish some years ago.
Perhaps it was before Bramsen's book, but researchers were certainly refused
access. A librarian at the Hoover knew of two personally -- she did tell me
their names, but they meant nothing to me, so I promptly forgot them. And
Candace knows of a couple of others. She'll have to fill you in on those
details when she resurfaces.
> Much of
> the information apparently came from the Glucksburg archives in Germany -
> but the late Prince Friedrich Ferdinand would not admit that. Thyra was
> his grandmother.
Perhaps this was where the researchers' difficulties lay.
> Conversely, the Glucksburg archives came up trumps
> with information on Valerie Marie Arenberg -(Albert of SH's illegitimate
> daughter.)
> But for most male royals at that time - if they fathered a child, they
> certainly did not acknowledge it.
I was thinking earlier, like Henry VIII and the Plantagenets, who handed titles
round to their illigitimate offspring.
> The Prince of Wales may have fathered
> a few illegitimate children but just about all his ladies were married,
> and thus, any children would be acknowledged by the wife's husband.
> Legally, the husband was the father of the wife's child.
How convenient for him! I suppose we don't know any for sure? Are there
families out there who claim descent from Edward VII -- even if it was
unacknowledged by Himself?
> A change in status from the days of George III's sons, such as William
> IV, who acknowledged his bastards. He father ten by Dorothy Jordan =
Wow.
> and one more by an unnamed woman.
> One of George III's daughter's also had a child out of wedlock.
I thought this was just a rumor. Was this child male or female, an do we know
what happene to it?
>
Thanks!
Penny
Marlene A Koenig
her lover, Thomas Garth. Baby Tom was raised by Sir Herbert Taylor,
and Sophia would visit him from time to time.
Her father never knew she was pregnant. He was told she suffered from
dropsy!
It's difficult to say if Thyra, the youngest daughter, would have
made an even more brilliant marriage. Christian and Louise were damn
lucky with Alix and Minnie. A Catholic marriage would have been ruled
out - Thyra could have ended up as the wife of a German mediatized prince.
If circumstances would have been different, she would have been a queen, too.
No, you are referring to Marie Mecklenburg. She was plain. The best source
of information is found in James Pope Hennessy's bio on Queen Mary.
The scandal made the papers of the day. I've got a NYTimes article
on Marie's upcoming divorce from Jametel. He married her for one reason:
money, and he went on to have an affair with Infanta Eulalia.
But Marie had in her corner, her grandmother, Augusta, a British princess,
and Augusta's niece, May, later Queen Mary. It was not until after
the divorce when Marie and her father were again close.
Friedrich Ferdinand was married to Anastasia of Mecklenburg-Schwerin
who was the granddaughter of Thyra. He was not Thyra;s grandson. But
grandson in law.
However, it is not definite that Marie Ployen Holstein was Thyra's
daughter, although it has been assumed to be true due to Bramsen's book
although his story changes a bit from the original edition in the 70s
and the more recent in the early 1990s. Thyra may have gone to
Greece to have the child.
Keith Winkler
Marlene A Koenig wrote:
> Penny - I saw the followups before the your original post --
> however, Marie of Mecklenburg did marry, and marry twice and had children.
> Thyra's marriage was not as brilliant as Alix's and Dagmar's, but it was
> not bad considering she was not pure when she went to the marriage bed.
> She married the heir to the Hanoverian kingdom, which in 1866 had been
> annexed by Prussia.
> It is unlikely that she ever met her natural daughter. Marie of Mecklenburg
> never did -- and it is utter nonsense to say that the Danish would give a
> cold-shoulder to all of this as Thyra's child is discussed in Bo Bramsen's
> book, Huset Glucksborg, a 2-volume history of the Danish royal family
> (and various branches) that was published in Danish some years ago. Much of
> the information apparently came from the Glucksburg archives in Germany -
> but the late Prince Friedrich Ferdinand would not admit that. Thyra was
> his grandmother. Conversely, the Glucksburg archives came up trumps
> with information on Valerie Marie Arenberg -(Albert of SH's illegitimate
> daughter.)
> But for most male royals at that time - if they fathered a child, they
> certainly did not acknowledge it. The Prince of Wales may have fathered
> a few illegitimate children but just about all his ladies were married,
> and thus, any children would be acknowledged by the wife's husband.
Which Prince of Wales are you talking about?
> Legally, the husband was the father of the wife's child.
> A change in status from the days of George III's sons, such as William
> IV, who acknowledged his bastards. He father ten by Dorothy Jordan =
> and one more by an unnamed woman.
> One of George III's daughter's also had a child out of wedlock.
Macho macho maaan, Will IV was a macho man!
Queen Cindy Approximately
Marlene A Koenig
Tom and Penny Wilson
Marlene A Koenig wrote:
> ...It's difficult to say if Thyra, the youngest daughter, would have
> made an even more brilliant marriage. Christian and Louise were damn
> lucky with Alix and Minnie. A Catholic marriage would have been ruled
> out - Thyra could have ended up as the wife of a German mediatized prince.
> If circumstances would have been different, she would have been a queen, too.
>
Why would a Catholic marriage have been ruled out? After all, Dagmar converted
to Orthodoxy, which has the same roots as Catholicism(before the Schism), and
indeed, after comparing and contrasting the two religions several years ago in a
Comparative Religions class(summer school -- easy credit :-) ) Orthodox Catholic
religious "requirements" are not too different from Greek Orthodox
"requirements." Or did the Danes simply feel that St. Petersburg was "worth a
Mass," but a smaller or less important Catholic country wouldn't have been?
Penny
Marlene A Koenig
a Catholic or vice versa. But Catholic royals rarely married a
Protestant. Of course, you have the example of Ena of Battenberg
marrying Alfonso of Spain and converting. Her cousin, Beatrice
of Edinburgh remained Lutheran for some years before eventually
converting to the Catholic church (she was married to Alfonso
s cousin, Alfonso de Orleans Borbon.)
But Protestants usually married Protestants - and marriage with someone
of the Orthodox was not the same as marriage with a Catholic. For
someone in the line of succession to the British throne -
marriage to an Orthodox did not mean a loss of succession rights.
The Lutheran Church has a lot in common with Orthodoxy.
I don't think any of the German princesses who married Romanovs
were Catholic. Grand Duke Constantine's wife remained Lutheran
throughout her life. Marie Pavlovna converted in 1908 - Ella
converted a few years after her marriage.
Also, a Catholic bride would have more problems with converting -
the RC church might not allow it. But Protestants don't have that
problem. Fredrika of Hannover, a Lutheran, converted to Orthodoxy.
Her daughter Sophia became a Catholic, but was raised in the Greek
Church. Sophie of Prussia converted from the Lutheran to the Greek
Church. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a Catholic
conversion to Protestantism.