Katharine Hepburn and homophobia
Peter J.
I found a passage about Katharine Hepburn during the filming of Suddenly Last
Summer. I'll transcribe it here:
--
The resultant mixture of madness and cannibalism gives the film an unsavory,
sick atmosphere that caused it to be approached with a pair of tongs by
everyone involved. Katharine Hepburn, who played Sebastian's demented mother,
publicly expressed her distate for the subject matter. According to director
Joseph Mankiewicz' biographer, Ken Geist, Mankiewicz and Spencer Tracy, on
location in Boston, spent the better part of an evening explaining
homosexuality to Hepburn, but when they had finished, she flatly refused to
beleive that such people existed. In later years, she has been a vocal opponent
of homosexuality, linking it with other "social ills" of society.
--
I was truly shocked when I read this. Since Katharine was a major part of
Hollywood during the 30's and 40's, and since she had a very brusque approach
onscreen at times that could be perceived by some as masculine, I assumed that
she would at the very least know of homosexuality and/or have experienced that
type of speculation herself.
Is it actually true that she had no idea about homosexuality, and that she
spoke out against homosexuality? Did she ever reverse her stance in her later
years? Honestly, I have never heard any of this before. I guess I'm just out of
the loop.
SweetLittleTroubleMaker
From: rhfan...@aol.comhatespam (Peter J.)
Date: Sun, Nov 17, 2002 9:29 PM
Message-id: <20021118002906...@mb-fs.aol.com>
--
I'm just surprised b/c I'd always assumed she was/is very liberal.
Lady Taker
"SweetLittleTroubleMaker" <sweetlil...@aol.comegetsome>:
> I'm just surprised b/c I'd always assumed she was/is very liberal.
You're forgetting her age, though. I think adultery was probably as
outrageous as anything in her life ever got and that was probably just the
wildest thing she could ever conceive of doing. My grandmother was the same
age as Kate and we only got her to say the word "lesbian" in the last five
years of her life. It was just an aspect of life that she did not/could not
acknowledge. I truly think it had to do with the age in which she grew up.
Volfie ('course she grew up in London, not Hollywood, but still...)
John
Naw, she just has class.
GO8GO
who was as gay as they come. However, Hepburn was considered very homophobic,
even writing in TV Guide that she was happy to work with John Wayne in "Rooster
Cogburn" because he was a real man in "these gay times".
Pennwryn
great director, who was gay. Hepburn and Tracy lived in his guest house at
more than one time. I think what Hepburn said in an interview back in the 80's
was that she thought homosexuality was nature's way of birth control. A
statement, perhaps not PC, but not homophobic, either.
GreenIce
Hepburn worked & lived in HOLLYWOOD in the 1930s and 1940s for
chrissakes - a lot different kind of atmosphere than your grandmother
did! Hepburn was no babe in the woods, she knew exactly what was going
on...if not she was a lot less sophisticated than MY same age
grandmother from NYC!
There have always been rumors about Hepburn's sexuality, and other
actresses of her day had called her a lesbian. It could be that her
reaction to male homosexuality was part of a front so she herself
could stay in the closet. And many women (gay & straight) may be in
favor of civil rights for gay men but find a lot of the promiscuity
and sexual practices to be pretty nasty.
I have never heard or seen a quote from Hepburn saying anything
against gays in public. What you quoted sounds more like it came from
Ronald Reagan. BTW, Hepburn is from New England - not London.
(what???)
"Lady Taker" <Vol...@aol.comBV1> wrote in message news:<uthucop...@corp.supernews.com>...
Snake142
>actresses of her day had called her a lesbian. It could be that her
>reaction to male homosexuality was part of a front so she herself
>could stay in the closet.
Yes, this is very true. There is a rumor that she was so sexually attracted
to women who flaunted their bodies that she actually paid noted 50's Pin-Up
Betty Page for a night of sex.
Lady Taker
"GreenIce" <guitars...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a333cce.02111...@posting.google.com...
> HOLD IT!
> Hepburn worked & lived in HOLLYWOOD in the 1930s and 1940s for
> chrissakes - a lot different kind of atmosphere than your grandmother
> did!
Didn't I *say* that? (Yes, I did. Review my post.) Take a deep, calming
breath now.
>Hepburn was no babe in the woods, she knew exactly what was going
> on...
Speculation on your part. And don't bet on it. People have a way of not
seeing what they don't want to see.
>if not she was a lot less sophisticated than MY same age
> grandmother from NYC!
Sophistication comes with age and experience. How sophisticated was your
grandmother in her twenties? or IN the '20/'30s?
> There have always been rumors about Hepburn's sexuality, and other
> actresses of her day had called her a lesbian. It could be that her
> reaction to male homosexuality was part of a front so she herself
> could stay in the closet. And many women (gay & straight) may be in
> favor of civil rights for gay men but find a lot of the promiscuity
> and sexual practices to be pretty nasty.
uh... okay. If you say so. Whatever.
> I have never heard or seen a quote from Hepburn saying anything
> against gays in public. What you quoted
HUH? I quoted nothing. Take another deep calming breath and review the
attributions in the thread, please.
>sounds more like it came from
> Ronald Reagan. BTW, Hepburn is from New England - not London.
> (what???)
"What?" indeed. Who said she was from London? I was talking about my
Grandmother. Now apologize for all your misattributions and incorrect
assumptions, hon.
Volfie (I'm leaving Green Ice's post to me intact below in hopes s/he might
review it and see where s/he got so damned confused)
Keith Moon
about bisexual and lesbian women in Hollywood, and it strongly
suggested that Ms. Hepburn was bisexual and heavily in the closet
(which is what they also say about damn near every woman who ever
worked in Hollywood, it seems-don't know how much of it is based on
fact).
On 18 Nov 2002 05:29:06 GMT, rhfan...@aol.comhatespam (Peter J.)
wrote:
Sue
> I doubt this very much. She was a close personal friend of George Cukor, the
> great director, who was gay. Hepburn and Tracy lived in his guest house at
> more than one time.
I think Hepburn did say something like there being no such thing as
male homosexuality. I'll try to dig up and post a passage from Arthur
Laurents' memoirs where he discusses confronting Hepburn about this
and even using her dear friend George Cukor (apparently known as the
'Red Queen' or something) as an example.
TdN
> Reading through The Celluloid Closet (by Vito Russo, the 1987 revised edition),
> I found a passage about Katharine Hepburn during the filming of Suddenly Last
> Summer. I'll transcribe it here:
>
> --
> The resultant mixture of madness and cannibalism gives the film an unsavory,
> sick atmosphere that caused it to be approached with a pair of tongs by
> everyone involved. Katharine Hepburn, who played Sebastian's demented mother,
> publicly expressed her distate for the subject matter. According to director
> Joseph Mankiewicz' biographer, Ken Geist, Mankiewicz and Spencer Tracy, on
> location in Boston, spent the better part of an evening explaining
> homosexuality to Hepburn, but when they had finished, she flatly refused to
> beleive that such people existed.
That's ridiculous. First of all, her mother was a birth control
activist who crusaded for open discussion of sexuality. Second of
all, there were several high-profile court cases (divorces, libel,
etc.) dealing with celebrity homosexuality in the 1930s and 1940s.
Third of all, homosexuality was depicted more openly in pre-Hays Code
films (i.e., the early days of Hepburn's career) than it would be
again until the 1960s. Fourth of all, Hepburn starred in "Sylvia
Scarlett," based on a book by then-bestselling author Compton
Mackenzie, who wrote extensively about gay men and lesbians; if she
had read the book (as she claimed to do for all of her movies), she
would have come across some quite frank (for the time) depictions of
gay society.
On the other hand, Hepburn has made public statements that indicated a
**distaste** for homosexuality (even though, as folks point out, some
of her most valued collaborators and friends were).
My guess is that her anti-gay stance came from her childhood--that
being gay was the "dark secret" that drove her brother to suicide in
his teens.
> In later years, she has been a vocal opponent
> of homosexuality, linking it with other "social ills" of society.
See above. Again, I think this is probably to some extent a
projection of her family tragedy onto her social outlook. I have
absolutely no evidence to support that contention, but it "feels
right" to me for some reason, based on everything I have ever read
that she said about her brother's suicide.
T.
SweetLittleTroubleMaker
From: penn...@aol.com (Pennwryn)
Date: Mon, Nov 18, 2002 10:59 AM
Message-id: <20021118135930...@mb-fy.aol.com>
I doubt this very much. She was a close personal friend of George Cukor, the
great director, who was gay. Hepburn and Tracy lived in his guest house at
more than one time. I think what Hepburn said in an interview back in the 80's
was that she thought homosexuality was nature's way of birth control. A
statement, perhaps not PC, but not homophobic, either. >>
Yes she was really obsessed with birth control. She who couldn't have a child
b/c her married lover of who-knows-how-many-years wouldn't leave his wife. So
naturally Kate would want other women to share in her misery. Misery loves
company. Look at her now. She doesn't seem all that "liberated" to me.
GO8GO
b/c her married lover of who-knows-how-many-years wouldn't leave his wife. So
naturally Kate would want other women to share in her misery. Misery loves
company. Look at her now. She doesn't seem all that "liberated" to me. >>
As I recall, her father was a prominent physician who was an early advocate of
abortion, a cause Hepburn championed throughout her life.
SweetLittleTroubleMaker
Date: Mon, Nov 18, 2002 6:31 PM
Message-id: <20021118213114...@mb-mj.aol.com>
Sure. I wouldn't put it past Kate to have had one or two herself.
GO8GO
of
abortion, a cause Hepburn championed throughout her life.
>>
Sure. I wouldn't put it past Kate to have had one or two herself. >>
OMG! Kate might have had an abortion or two! What is this world coming to?
Decca Dent
"TdN" <triann...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:314a4ba6.02111...@posting.google.com...
I agree. It's also a bit odd that Mankiewicz and Tracy would have had to
spend the "better part of an evening" *explaining* homosexuality to Hepburn.
If there is a grain of truth to that, they might have been going into the
graphics about gay sexual practices she might not have been familiar with.
There was a tendency back then for sophisticated straight people to fully
accept and aknowledge gay people as friends and witty party liveners, but to
kind of conveniently categorize them as "asexual."
Nashboi
wrote:
Well, my grandmother wa born in 1888 and at age 80 we discussed my
being gay with no trouble at all. She wasn't even phased by it. Not
everyone is like Hepburn.....Thankfully! And in more than one way.
BITCH!
Nb
Robin Colleen Moore
> The weird thing, is, I was looking through another book that talked
> about bisexual and lesbian women in Hollywood, and it strongly
> suggested that Ms. Hepburn was bisexual and heavily in the closet
> (which is what they also say about damn near every woman who ever
> worked in Hollywood, it seems-don't know how much of it is based on
> fact).
Would that be _The Sewing Circle_? I have rather mixed views on that
book--the first few chapters that discussed gay (well, mostly lesbian &
bi) life in Hollywood during the '20s & '30s seemed reasonably on the
mark, and finding out about Mercedes de Acosta was fascinating (old GF
of both Garbo & Dietrich, IIRC--I don't have the book sitting here); but
I noticed that, as the book went on, it seemed to become a lot more
rushed in tone and more a matter of "let's throw as many names as
possible in here." I don't recall the specific details, but I do
remember noticing that even some of the fact-checking on dates, etc.
didn't match up properly--it was almost as if someone else wrote the
second half of the book, or else did a really lousy rush job on it.
It's a shame, because the first half really was quite good, but I'm
afraid I can't wholeheartedly recommend it for that reason.
Robin the mad photographer (not sure whether I believe the author's
contention that KH was a lesbian or not)
Black Sheep Studios, Cambridge, MA -ro...@mindspring.com
Brownie Yenta/Heater Shirt Queen/Minor Net Goddess
"Fortunately, Robin has never asked anyone to kill for her
brownies. She's very sweet that way."--Aimee Lortskell
Lady Taker
"Nashboi" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message:
> Well, my grandmother wa born in 1888 and at age 80 we discussed my
> being gay with no trouble at all. She wasn't even phased by it.
There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but I think I'd want to know
if Granny really understood *all* the implications of what "gay" meant. As
someone else noted in this thread, some folks used to think of "gay" as some
sort of sexual limbo -- no sex acts at all. Granny may have thought you
just weren't gettin' any -- not of the various positions and sex acts
involved. And if she did, my hat's off to her. I don't think my
grandmother understood too much about sex at all. Hetero or otherwise. It
simply was not discussed in her era and all her life she considered that a
subject that was not discusses with anyone at any time. She certainly would
never ask what oral sex was or how two men or two women could possibly have
sexual congress. She probably never considered it in graphic terms if she
thought about it at all.
> Not
> everyone is like Hepburn.....Thankfully! And in more than one way.
> BITCH!
>
> Nb
I don't know she's a bitch. I don't know she's not. I just think she's
from a different time and a different place and we want to drop her into our
era and expect she will react properly. Having had a family member of the
same age, I know that that doesn't always work well.
Volfie (and that's really my only point. REALLY.)
George Patterson
> Is it actually true that she had no idea about homosexuality, and that she
> spoke out against homosexuality? Did she ever reverse her stance in her later
> years? Honestly, I have never heard any of this before. I guess I'm just out of
> the loop.
BS. Hollywood was full of homosexuals and bisexuals even back then.
Rumours involving even the bigger stars like Errol Flynn were
extremely common.
It's very possible that she didn't approve of it, though. Either way,
no one has put it as brilliantly as Bette davis: "I'm not against gay
liberation, it's just that there's nothing in it for me!"
Nashboi
wrote:
>
>"Nashboi" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message:
>> Well, my grandmother wa born in 1888 and at age 80 we discussed my
>> being gay with no trouble at all. She wasn't even phased by it.
>
>There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but I think I'd want to know
>if Granny really understood *all* the implications of what "gay" meant.
Let's put it this way. One of the first things she said was "be
careful,because one could be ruined rectally." Enough said?????
Nb
TdN
>
> There was a tendency back then for sophisticated straight people to fully
> accept and aknowledge gay people as friends and witty party liveners, but to
> kind of conveniently categorize them as "asexual."
"Back then...?" You're much more optimistic than I am :).
Still, it's hard to imagine Jeanette Winterson or some other famous
lesbian novelist having the gall to say today, as Gertrude Stein
reportedly did in the 1920s, that lesbianism is beautiful and natural
but male homosexuality is "disgusting".
On the other hand, there's always Mike Ovitz...
T.
Lady Taker
"Petra" <petra.m...@uth.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:3DDA9D7...@uth.tmc.edu...
> era and expect she will react properly. Having had a family member of the
> >>same age, I know that that doesn't always work well.
> >>
> >>Volfie (and that's really my only point. REALLY.)
>
>
>
>
Whatever you way you think is proper.
Volfie (why?)
Petra
>>same age, I know that that doesn't always work well.
>>
>>Volfie (and that's really my only point. REALLY.)
What is "properly" now days; pray tell.
Sue
> I think Hepburn did say something like there being no such thing as
> male homosexuality. I'll try to dig up and post a passage from Arthur
> Laurents' memoirs
OK, here's that bit from Laurents' memoirs, "Original Story - by
Arthur Laurents". Hope I'm not violating any copyright laws!
<quote>
...Refusal or rejection was not permissible; for someone else to be as
blunt and direct as she was beyond the pale. She didn't want to hear
about Garson's (ed: Garson Kanin) piece, which accompanied her face on
the cover of some women's magazine. It described Garson and Ruth
Gordon sitting at a sidewalk cafe in Paris with Kate and Tracy,
talking about sex. Hard for me to believe, but harder still was Kate's
remark (quoted by Gar): "I don't believe there is any such thing as
male homosexuality."
Queen Victoria didn't believe there was any such thing as female
homosexuality. Which would neutralize all the rumors about Hepburn.
But male homosexuality? No such thing as? George Cukor her adored
friend?
"I didn't read the article," she snapped.
"But did you say it?"
"When my father died - and he was a doctor, a damn good one - he said
he knew less about sexuality than he did when he was an intern."
"Very interesting but, Kate, did you say it?"
"My mother was a suffragette, first woman to..." and she was off - and
off the subject and stayed off no matter how hard I pursued. Finally,
she simply picked up her gear and out she went.
</quote>
Make of it what you will :)
Nashboi
wrote:
>
>"Nashboi" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:9a3ltu4lpni7re7a8...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:56:06 -0500, "Lady Taker" <Vol...@aol.comBV1>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Nashboi" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message:
>> >> Well, my grandmother wa born in 1888 and at age 80 we discussed my
>> >> being gay with no trouble at all. She wasn't even phased by it.
>> >
>> >There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but I think I'd want to
>know
>> >if Granny really understood *all* the implications of what "gay" meant.
>>
>> Let's put it this way. One of the first things she said was "be
>> careful,because one could be ruined rectally." Enough said?????
>>
>> Nb
>
>If it made you happy then I'll bow to your understanding of the
>conversation. Personally, I'd want to know if she actually knew how that
>could happen or she was just chirping up something she had heard or read
>somewhere without understanding how that would actually come about. (No pun
>intended.)
>
I doubt she read it between 1888 and 1960, but who knows?
>But, like I said, if Granny was that with it then I tip my hat to her. Mine
>wasn't. I think your's was probably the exception.
>
Yeah, she was and she was also my best buddy. She's be gone over 30
years and I still miss her. I was very lucky to have had her in my
life for 30 years.
>Volfie (not sure my Grandmother knew where babies came from before her's
>actually started to arrive)
>
I think my parents fall into your Granny's category!
Nb
Know-It-All
Tracy was less an affair than a friendship; he was a drunk and a HUGE
skirt chaser. Whatever her motives were or true sexuality is remains a
mystery and will until her death. Garson Kanin, who wrote that book
about Hepburn & Tracy, is a big bullshitter when it comes to telling
the truth about a closeted star's sexuality. It's amazing how so many
of these people can lie so much.
A word about these books about Hollywood homosexuality, such as The
Girls, The Sewing Circle, etc. - There is still TONS of stuff that has
not made it's way into print. One, because many of these stars are
still alive, and two, gay people who were associated/married to gay
stars, if outed, would also out the gay star in a way. So mouths are
still shut. However, there is info in The Girls that is documented by
FBI files, and there are volumes of gay stuff in FBI files of
left-leaning VERY famous closeted gay stars from the 50s and 60s.
We'll have to wait for that!
ro...@mindspring.com (Robin Colleen Moore) wrote in message news:<1flw3be.r4wxonkoz35sN%ro...@mindspring.com>...
Nashboi
(Know-It-All) wrote:
>There have also been suggestions that Hepburn's real relationship with
>Tracy was less an affair than a friendship; he was a drunk and a HUGE
>skirt chaser. Whatever her motives were or true sexuality is remains a
>mystery and will until her death. Garson Kanin, who wrote that book
>about Hepburn & Tracy, is a big bullshitter when it comes to telling
>the truth about a closeted star's sexuality. It's amazing how so many
>of these people can lie so much.
>
>A word about these books about Hollywood homosexuality, such as The
>Girls, The Sewing Circle, etc. - There is still TONS of stuff that has
>not made it's way into print. One, because many of these stars are
>still alive, and two, gay people who were associated/married to gay
>stars, if outed, would also out the gay star in a way. So mouths are
>still shut. However, there is info in The Girls that is documented by
>FBI files, and there are volumes of gay stuff in FBI files of
>left-leaning VERY famous closeted gay stars from the 50s and 60s.
>We'll have to wait for that!
>
>
I wait with bated breath!