THIS IS THE SCUM THAT BRITAIN EXPORTS TO THE WORLD. Era: What do you expect from a nation that likes bull fighting?
CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO
> What do you expect from a nation that likes bull fighting?
And what can you expect from a nation of fucking crazy drunks???
Celtic fans' plane in emergency landing
Police took statements on the plane
A charter plane carrying 148 Celtic football fans has been forced to make
an emergency landing at Cardiff International Airport after reports of a
major public disturbance on board.
The Boeing 737, en route from Santiago in northern Spain to Glasgow, was
carrying supporters home after their team's Uefa Cup game against Celta
Vigo and was due to arrive at 1535 GMT.
The incident is at a relatively early stage. We have sent officers to the
scene
South Wales Police spokesman
In a "full emergency" situation, South Wales Police boarded the plane - now
on the runway at Cardiff - to take statements from crew members and
passengers.
Several passengers were removed from the plane for further questioning. At
least six arrests were made.
Police said six males from Glasgow were arrested - two 37-year-olds, and
others aged 40, 42, 45 and 51.
They were arrested on suspicion of violent disorder and taken to Barry
police station.
The remaining fans will be sent back to Glasgow on a bus.
The Royal Air Force at Kinloss in Moray was alerted shortly after 1500 GMT
and scrambled two helicopters - on exercise in the Bristol Channel - as a
precaution before the plane's crew elected to divert.
The plane landed at Cardiff at 1517 GMT. Nine fire engines and ambulances
joined police at the scene.
'Unruly' passengers
Ian Macauley of airline Astreus told BBC News 24: "It became apparent
during the flight that a number of passengers were becoming unruly.
"The captain adjudged the situation was such that he should divert to
Cardiff.
"The aircraft landed safety at Cardiff and there have been a number of
arrests - a number of people have been removed.
"We understand somebody may have been smoking on the aircraft, which is
completely forbidden.
"When the passenger's ways were pointed out, a number of people got
involved in something which became a fracas."
It is not known whether alcohol played a part in the incident, which one
member of crew described as a "riot" at one point.
Helicopter scrambled
According to passenger Steve Prince, the pilot told passengers they would
be detained on the runway at Glasgow.
"After that, there was a discussion between one of the passengers and the
cabin crew - it was a little bit heated but not too bad," he said.
"One of the passengers leaned over and tapped one of the cabin crew on the
shoulder.
"The next thing, we were descending at a rapid rate and heading to Cardiff.
"I'm a little surprised to hear there had been a riot on board. There were
not any fierce postures taken."
He claimed "no alcohol whatsoever" had been sold or consumed on the plane.
A Celtic FC statement read: "We are extremely concerned about the reports
we are receiving, both about the seriousness of events and the safety of
our supporters.
"We are awaiting more information but currently understand that the flight
was not an official Celtic charter and was not arranged through Celtic
Football Club."
---------------------------------------------
FUCK BRITAIN. FUCK GIBRALTAR. CLOSE THE GATE.
---------------------------------------------
--
+----------------------------------------------------+
NO A LA INMERSION LINGUISTICA EN EL PAIS CHARNEGO:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?stopinme&1
+----------------------------------------------------+
Ayuda económica al Movimiento Charnego de Liberacion
Nacional:
Caixa Tarragona 2073-0074-37-0110492456 (Forum Babel)
+----------------------------------------------------+
William A. T. Clark
You should read the eyewitness account from someone on the plane that is
posted to rec.sport.soccer. A flight that false started three times
because of engine trouble, took off hours late, and a crew that brought
a seriously bad attitude to work with them. The captain diverted because
the faulty engine quit during flight, and he had little option. On
landing arrests were made of folk that only dared to complain to the
cabin crew about their behaviour, and for even less.
This is not the simple black and white story that you would like it to
be. But then, all you want to do is find an excuse (any excuse) to yell
obscenities about Britain, so why would you want to be fully informed?
Cretin
William Clark
Ken
William A. T. Clark <clar...@nospamosu.edu> wrote in message
news:clark.31-829377...@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu...
Closed minds, William, so self-assured of their self-righteousness which
frankly stinks in a supposed modern democracy in Europe in the 21st century.
If it's so burdensome to experience this from wherever you happen to be,
imagine having 40 million folk like this as your next door neighbour! The
sooner Gib becomes incorporated into the UK by means of devolved
integration, or assumes a constituional position akin to that of the Channel
Is., the better.
Ken
Jim Watt
Fair enough.
What was the name of the airline? I shall avoid it.
---
Jim Watt "7th November 2002 in a referendum 99% of Gibraltar
http://www.gibnet.com said no to Spain, and no means NO"
Almogaver
A figure of 33 million or so would probably be more accurate. The
majority of us Catalans and most likely the Basques would sympathise
with the Gibraltarian cause if only because we've been bearing the
burden of your next door neighbour's policies for the last few
centuries. I for one couldn't think of a worst disaster for Gibraltar
than becoming integrated into Spain. Fight them to the end with
everything you've got. Just look at what happened to us.
CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO
> A figure of 33 million or so would probably be more accurate. The
> majority of us Catalans and most likely the Basques would sympathise
> with the Gibraltarian cause if only because we've been bearing the
> burden of your next door neighbour's policies for the last few
> centuries. I for one couldn't think of a worst disaster for Gibraltar
> than becoming integrated into Spain. Fight them to the end with
> everything you've got. Just look at what happened to us.
>
Most foreigners know little about Barcelona and its sorrounding region, the
Catalan Autonomous Community (CAC). But few of them really know that there
is a wide Spanish-speaking community (the Charnegho people) in the CAC, a
community that is claiming its right to self-determination and respect for
its culture acccording to of the Humans Rights Declaration issued on Dec.
10th, 1948.
One of the foremost rights of the several peoples that compose the
humankind is to foster and care for their own culture in their own
country.
As proud members of the Charnego etnia, we would like to bring a brief
digest up which enumerates the articles of the Human Rights Declaration
and several other international conventions that the Catalan nationalist
government currently does not respect in the territory of the Charnego
Country.
-- Start of Digest --
* Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 26
2. Education shall be directed to the full development of the human
personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and
fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and
friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall
further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of
peace.
3. Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that
shall be given to their children.
* Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and
Peoples
2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue
of that right they freely determine their political status and freely
pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational
preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
* Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic,
Religious or Linguistic Minorities
Article 2
1. Persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic
minorities (hereinafter referred to as persons belonging to minorities)
have the right to enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their
own religion, and to use their own language, in private and in public,
freely and without interference or any form of discrimination.
Article 4
1. States shall take measures where required to ensure that persons
belonging to minorities may exercise fully and effectively all their
human rights and fundamental freedoms without any discrimination and in
full equality before the law.
2. States shall take measures to create favourable conditions to
enable persons belonging to minorities to express their characteristics
and to develop their culture, language, religion, traditions and
customs, except where specific practices are in violation of national
law and contrary to international standards.
3. States should take appropriate measures so that, wherever
possible, persons belonging to minorities may have adequate
opportunities to learn their mother tongue or to have instruction in
their mother tongue.
4. States should, where appropriate, take measures in the field of
education, in order to encourage knowledge of the history, traditions,
language and culture of the minorities existing within their territory.
Persons belonging to minorities should have adequate opportunities to
gain knowledge of the society as a whole.
-- End of digest --
Nowadays, Catalonia is a six-million inhabitants region ruled by a
nationalist government which refuses to grant basic rights to the
Charnego community. Charnegos are denied education in their own language
while Spanish is taught as a foreign language two or three hours per
week. The concealing scope of Catalan nationalists is to homogenize
culturally their country in order to split up more easily from Spain.
Brain washing begins at schools, but if follows almost in every trait of
normal life powered by nationalist media, radio and TV. Spain is
depicted as the natural enemy of the Catalan people, and its culture and
language as inferior, less European, African-like. Some fringe groups
even ask for the total ban of Spanish culture and traditions as the best
way to preserve the Catalan language ("bilingualism is genocide").
Some HR activists sued the so-called euphemistically "normalization"
laws at the Spanish Constitutional Court but, under the nationalist
pressure and threat of "romper la baraja" (break the rules), the Court
turned an eye blind allowing thus enforcing policies of homogenization
against Charnego people. This filthy blackmail against Spanish
democratic institutions, thanks to a hung central parliament in Madrid,
has lasted for almost 6 years and still holds.
Catalan government hasn't had a shred of comprehension towards Charnego
demands. Pujol, the catalan president well-known for his racist
statements against Andalusians, even qualify people who protest as
troublemakers who want to break the living together in Catalonia.
These are the reasons why Charnego people today call for international
solidarity and plead for a worldwide scrupulous respect towards UN's
agreements and resolutions.
While in Barcelona, you`ll have wide opportunities to know more about
the Charnego people and the country they live in: THE CHARNEGO COUNTRY.
We encourage you to do so.
Sincerely,
CITIZEN OF THE CHARNEGO COUNTRY
Ken
Almogaver <en_roger...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1b1bd333.02121...@posting.google.com...
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<ato9t6$i4u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > William A. T. Clark <clar...@nospamosu.edu> wrote in message
> > news:clark.31-829377...@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu...
> > > In article <Xns92E7E9034A351w...@66.150.105.46>,
> > > CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO <viper....@gmx.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > > paul...@yahoo.com (PaulusAr) wrote:
> > > >
[Un snippito where it was needed]
Yes. Joe Bossano, leader of the opposition in Gibraltar, was in your part of
the world a few days ago on a lecture tour with the University of San
Sebastian, speaking on the issue of self-determination. There was a UN
representative there too, as well as notable local folk - a MEP for Galicia
and a member of the Galician Parliament. It transpires that there were many
promises made to the people of these northern parts of Spain as regards
self-determination, many of which have yet to reach you and remain
unimplementable in the forseeable future. It rather puts doubts into the
minds of what few Gibraltarians there may have been willing to consider the
Sp offer of joint sovereignty with "autonomia" thrown in. If promises made
in 1979 have yet to be enacted in 2002, what will happen to promises made in
2002?
What I cannot understand, after all my life of living under the Spanish
threat to overrun my homeland against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, is
what Spain actually wants this land for. It has no natural resources, and as
for strategic position, it is no better positioned than Algeciras , Tarifa
or La Linea! There is nothing Gibraltar has that Spain does not already
have. Is it a desire to expand Spain's borders? We see this already with
Olivenca, held against terms of another treaty. We see it with Ceuta and
Melilla, which appear to be geographically part of Morocco to exactly the
same geographical extent that Gib appears to be part of Spain, and in this
multi-posted set of NGs where there is a call to claim for Spain the
nominally Portuguese Islas Salvajes! Why this tendency to expansionism? Why
not content within ones existing borders? Right wing governments seeking to
expand their borders against the wishes of the people whose homes are to be
overrun has nasty overtones in Europe!
Ken
Almogaver
>
> Almogaver <en_roger...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1b1bd333.02121...@posting.google.com...
> > "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<ato9t6$i4u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > > news:clark.31-829377...@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu...
> > > > In article <Xns92E7E9034A351w...@66.150.105.46>,
> > > > CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO <viper....@gmx.de> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > paul...@yahoo.com (PaulusAr) wrote:
> > > > >
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > FUCK BRITAIN. FUCK GIBRALTAR. CLOSE THE GATE.
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You should read the eyewitness account from someone on the plane that
> is
> > > > posted to rec.sport.soccer. A flight that false started three times
> > > > because of engine trouble, took off hours late, and a crew that
> brought
> > > > a seriously bad attitude to work with them. The captain diverted
> because
> > > > the faulty engine quit during flight, and he had little option. On
> > > > landing arrests were made of folk that only dared to complain to the
> > > > cabin crew about their behaviour, and for even less.
> > > >
> > > > This is not the simple black and white story that you would like it to
> > > > be. But then, all you want to do is find an excuse (any excuse) to
> yell
> > > > obscenities about Britain, so why would you want to be fully informed?
> > > >
> > > > Cretin
> > > >
> > > > William Clark
> > >
It's simply called arrogance. Spain doesn't need Gibraltar for
anything. It would just satisfy the egos of the right wing Francoists
in power and the like. The only reason Gibraltar hasn't been taken
over yet is because the British army is bigger than the Spanish. Pure
and simple. These people are fairly entrenched in their views of the
world. As far as they are concerned Gibraltarians are Spanish because
they were 300 hundred years ago. The concept of evolution doesn´t seem
to have made it into Spanish text books. It seems ludicrous to claim a
territory back without asking the people that live in it what they
think. That's why the current UK-Spain talks on Gibraltar are flawed.
They don't take Gibraltar's point of view into account.
As to the Gurriatos, ciudadanos et al, well they're an exponent of the
most extremist element in Spanish society. To be fair the majority of
Spanish population are not like them. They are notwithstanding quite
annoying when you have them in your own home. These are the guys that
came to my country in the 1960s, escaping the misery and despair that
was the south of Spain at that time. They came looking for jobs, for a
better life. The classical migratory flow from poorer areas into
reacher ones. So far nothing strange. In Catalonia and in the Basque
country we gave them jobs. A vast majority of them did well and in
fairness a lot of them integrated remarkably well, learned the local
language, etc. However a significant number adopted a "conquistador"
type attitude, arrogant, ignorant attitudes, despising the land that
took them in and its language. To date we're still suffering badly
from it. We have to listen to the kinds of rubbish you can see in this
very same thread. Have you ever had a guest that wore out his welcome
? I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.
If Gibraltar, God forbid, were to be "assimilated" it is very easy to
predict the outcome. It's happened before. Let me guess:
* If you're lucky you'll be "granted" (yes they are doing you a
favour) autonomy status.
* Thousands of andalusians will be sent to settle this rebel land.
They will systematically refuse to acknowledge local culture and
customs. They'll refuse to learn English. They will complain no end
when English is taught in schools to their kids because of course it
impinges on their human rights or some other pathetic rubbish.
* Within 50 years you'll be outnumbered and your culture will be
diluted to homeopathic levels.
* In a 100 years, Gibraltar will be an obscure PhD subject for
historians.
Just don't let that happen. We lost our own war. If somebody else
doesn't that makes me happy.
Almogaver
Ken
Well, what you suggest is exactly what many in Gib suspect. You may not be
aware of the Matutes proposals - a set of proposals put forward by a few Sp
foreign ministers ago, which, had it been a proposal for a deveolved
integration of Gibraltar intot he UK would have been jumped at. Instead it
had Spain as the "mother country". It was couched in fairly reasonable
language, if you were prepared to accepot that sort of thing, but there was
one HECK of a sting in the tail- no-one could hold office or a job of any
importance in Gib, "autonomous" though it was meant to be, UNLESS that
person held undiluted Sp nationality. No dual-citizenship allowed. In other
words, the only epople who would be allowed to run anything in Gib would be
sympathetic to Madrid, as no-onw hwo opposed a Spanish Gibraltar would
countenance taking Sp citizenship! Apartheid built-in to the statute books!
You can imagine the reply these proposals provoked.
Ken
CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO
In recent years, language choice and proficiency in Catalonia have
become ideological issues, rather than simply pragmatic questions related
to functioning in society. The attempts to eradicate Spanish by teaching
Catalan only in school to force Charnego youngsters to use Catalan more,
are seen by many as an attempt to stigmatize Spanish culture as inferior.
The political mood in Catalonia has been characterized by a strong
tendency towards provincialism, at odds with an heterogeneous society
such as Catalonia, where there are some for whom ethnic identity
(Charnego or otherwise) is a matter of great importance, and whose values
and attitudes are shaped by their primary reference group.
The public schools in Catalonia are forcing the Catalan language upon
all children, regardless of their native language, most often against the
will of the parents. All the teachings are delivered in Catalan, an no
choice is offered in Spanish. This policy has been called, quite
graphically, "immersion" and is meant to erradicate the Spanish language
in an early age, when the minds of the children still have the plasticity
to do so.
Spanish language is taught by the schools one or two hours per week, as
it would be a foreign language and not the mother tongue of more than
half the population of Catalonia. Many Charnegos claim that the only
thing achieved by the "immersion" policies of the Generalitat has been an
inferior education for these kids and a deterioration of academic grades
among them. Higher income Charnego dodge the "immersion" policies of
public schools by sending their children to Spanish only or bilingual
private schools. Another example of the inverse correlation between the
abandonment of Spanish as mother tongue and income. Underneath, money is
the question.
The Catalan government has established a series of quotas, forcing
private radio and TV broadcasting stations to broadcast a large amount of
their programs in the Catalan language. The stations broadcasting in
Catalan do not have similar imposition. Both languages are supposed to be
official in the territory and receive an equal treatment. The Catalan
governement is also pushing to set up a series of fines to penalize
private companies not using the Catalan language in their private
business.
With the elections at hand next year, Catalan political arena is
changing swiftly. Those who have arrived relatively late to the Catalan
politics are Charnegos, who actually are politically underrepresented.
Despite individual political achievements, Charnegos as a group are still
not strong participants in politics. Rates of party registration and
voting are low among the Charnegos, giving the impression of being a non-
existent community. Moreover, political unity has been difficult to
achieve among people from such an individualistic culture. The Catalan
nationalists have engaged into a mission whose ultimate aim is to
culturally homogenize Catalonia, making use of the monosubject of
revitalization of the Catalan language as the perfect disguise to hide
their real goals. Catalonia has been ruled "de facto" by an economic and
social elite, and the keys of power are normally played just only by this
elite.
Charnego layman does not dare to make individual or collective protest,
by fear of social and political stigma. Catalan elite has cunningily
taken care of binding charnego reivindications with the remaining
francoist politics in order to desencorauge any social protest of that
community.
Some of the catalan far right propaganda lay on the following
assessments:
a) Catalan must be the only language because it is the own one of the
geography
b) It is admissible to carry out cultural colonization against charnego
nation because apparently the same one colonization was made to other
people in other zones of Spain.
c) the lack of educative centers teaching in minority languages in other
zones of Spain is similar to the lack of training centers in a language
which is spoken by more than half of the population.
d) children can learn their language in an advanced way, orthography,
grammar, vocabulary of high level (not just the usual slang spoken in
media), by infuse science, chatting with their buddies in the streets or
watching local TV crap instead of in the classrooms.
Charnegos and Catalan-speakers are competing for some the same
resources: public money of the Catalonian Generalitat is expect almost
very selectively to promote their language, leaving the Charnegos
without any cultural assistance. This is an unique situation of
discrimination against a whole community in Western Europe nowadays.
As a matter of fact, the undermining of Charnego culture only will stop
when Charnego people take awareness of their own political and social
role in modern Catalonia. The creation of a Charnego lobby, within Spain
and the European Union, poised to defend the culture, traditions and
language of Charnegos is both urgent and necessary. The role of the
emigrant in modern European societies will be a keystone in the future of
our Continent. The attitude and behavior of the recipient governments
towards them, as well. That's why charnegos are crying today for freedom.
SUBCOMANDANTE VIPER
Ken
CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO <viper....@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Xns92E8D3FCDDFE8w...@66.150.105.46...
For all the reasons as illustrated above, may God deliver us from immersion
in the Spanish state. Every day I have more reasons for wishing to remain
apart from it, and on this day, on reading the above, I have been given more
reasons than on any other day before.
Ken
Almogaver
> Well, what you suggest is exactly what many in Gib suspect. You may not be
> aware of the Matutes proposals - a set of proposals put forward by a few Sp
> foreign ministers ago, which, had it been a proposal for a deveolved
> integration of Gibraltar intot he UK would have been jumped at. Instead it
> had Spain as the "mother country". It was couched in fairly reasonable
> language, if you were prepared to accepot that sort of thing, but there was
> one HECK of a sting in the tail- no-one could hold office or a job of any
> importance in Gib, "autonomous" though it was meant to be, UNLESS that
> person held undiluted Sp nationality. No dual-citizenship allowed. In other
> words, the only epople who would be allowed to run anything in Gib would be
> sympathetic to Madrid, as no-onw hwo opposed a Spanish Gibraltar would
> countenance taking Sp citizenship! Apartheid built-in to the statute books!
>
> You can imagine the reply these proposals provoked.
>
> Ken
To be honest I wasn't aware of the Matutes proposals but they don't
surprise me a bit. Rest assured there's no will in Spain to preserve
any sense of Britishness (or any non Spanishness for that matter) in
Gib, the same way minority cultures such as Catalan, Basque and
Galician are in their view nothing but an annoyance that should be
erradicated. One advantatge you have is the historical references we
offer. You can virtually see the future and take preemptive action
now, whatever that may be. Incidentally, not that I'm prone to
scaremongering, but I'm not too sure I fancy your chances in the long
run. Especially not with the current combination of Governments. But
who knows, if Andorra managed, why not ?
As to Mr Viper and his paranoias what can I say. For those of you
who've never been in Catalonia just come and see for yourselves. Many
would say it's a prime example of a bilingual society living in
peaceful coexistence. We may well have our aspirations to sovereignty
but we don't bomb our way towards it. Off the top of my head, last
time I looked over 99% of parents were more than happy to have their
kids educated in a bilingual system. Apart from anything else it helps
when trying to get a job. Only lunatics such as the trolls inhabiting
some of these NGs would care to suggest otherwise. It's really
incredible, go and live in another country and then complain that they
want to teach you their language. Can you imagine ? It would make for
a good joke if it wasn't so serious.
Ken
There are a number of things here which you really have to be a Gib
enthusiast to be aware of, which go in our favour. The recent attempts
byTony Blair with FrAznar (I use the Fr to remind us all how like Franco he
is) to sell Gib out have been a great disappointment to Tony because he
completely misread the public mood not only in Gib, but in the UK too. The
result in the UK has been a swelling of public opinion in favour of Gib
being left to decide its own future, whatever that might be, without
persuasion or threats. The pro-Gib all-party groupf of MPs in the UK
Parliament has now become the largest group of politicians in Parliament.
There is open lobbying by some of these MPs to admit Gib into the United
Kingdom in some or other constitutional form, some tot he extent of wanting
to integrate Gibraltar as part fot he United Kingdom. If that were to
happen, Spain may as well burn her attempts at the UN and elsewhere as
regards getting her hands on Gib.
Other things happening are within SPain itself. It is a myth that the
animosity has existed since the day the Treaty of Utrecht was signed in
1713. Sure, the 18th century saw lots of sieges laid by Spain on Gib, but
the last of these military sieges ending in 1789 saw the end of hostilities,
and Gib and Spain lived in peaceful harmony side by side until Franco came
to power and lit a fuse of extreme fervent nationalism which as regards Gib
and indeed the regions of Span has yet to be extinguished. The man may have
died in 1975, but his spirit sure lingers on. It's about time his memory was
left in whatever peace he deserves. It is the case though that while thee
will always be right-wing extremists in every country, this tendency can
surely only lessen in Spain. The opinions voiced in this NG by these people
cannot surely be representative of SPanish people oas a whole. I have
certainly never met any face to face, and it is cartainly a Castillian
problem rather than a problem of the whole Spanish state. As you rightly
corrected me, it is not a problem of 40 million neighbours, because at least
the 7 million in the north do not think like at the very most, the 33
million to the south of them!
The ruling generation in every country in Europe is aged 55 - 70. The
current ruling generation in SPain had its formative years at the height of
Franco's influence in Spain. We need but wait until those born since
Franco's death are old enough and mature enough to assume the reins of power
in Spain. Franco died in '75, and adding 55 years to then we see that these
people will come into power in 2030. Those who were 10 years old in 1975 and
were therefore politically naive will in that year be 65. These people will
not have any recollection other than of a nation whose politicians were
elected rather than imposed themselves by military strength on the people.
By 2030 the world we live in may well be a world with different
preoccupations than the world has today. The position of Spain and of Europe
in world affairs may well be different from today's.
In any case, it is not a case of Gibraltar NEVER being Spanish, but of
Gibraltarians ALWAYS having the right to decide the future of their
homeland. If they were to choose that the way forward for them was to enter
into an agreement with the Spanish state, that will be the correct solution
for ibraltar not because Spain says so, but because Gibraltar will ahve
chosen that path for itself. You see, I am not anti-Spanish. I do not wish
bad things to happen to Spain or to any part of Spain. I am pro-Gibraltar
and pro-Gibraltarian, which means that whatever Gibraltar becomes and its
people choose to be, it must be their choice so to be.
Perhaps by 2030 or 2040 we will not have the national divisions and
rivalries we see today. We probably will have them, but perhaps diluted down
a bit and these things will matter less then than they matter now. We do not
seek any special status for Gibraltar, merely the same rights and priviliges
that everyone around us who is an influence on us demands for themselves.
Neither Spain nor Britain (or rather more precisely, the present UK
government) would tolerate for themselves the very conditions they want to
impose on us. All we say is, if it's not good enough for you why should it
be good enough for us? We want THE SAME standards applied to us as you
demand for yourselves.
So far, we're doing OK
>
> As to Mr Viper and his paranoias what can I say. For those of you
> who've never been in Catalonia just come and see for yourselves. Many
> would say it's a prime example of a bilingual society living in
> peaceful coexistence. We may well have our aspirations to sovereignty
> but we don't bomb our way towards it. Off the top of my head, last
> time I looked over 99% of parents were more than happy to have their
> kids educated in a bilingual system. Apart from anything else it helps
> when trying to get a job. Only lunatics such as the trolls inhabiting
> some of these NGs would care to suggest otherwise. It's really
> incredible, go and live in another country and then complain that they
> want to teach you their language. Can you imagine ? It would make for
> a good joke if it wasn't so serious.
Come to Gib to see not tolerance, for tolerance implies an uneasy
coexistance where difference is accepted grudgingly. Instead we have
celebration of difference. By its very nature, a very densely packed society
of 30,000 people living in 3sq miles (6 sq km) MUST be a society where
differences are accepted, for if not we would have blown each others brains
out a long time ago. Ours is too small a place to have ghettos where people
of similar persuasions can hang out. We live in flats and apartments because
we have no room for houses. One man;s floor is another man's cieling. It has
to be so. Therefore we have to live with a degree of understanding for each
other that is not necessary elsewhere. The very many religions, all
respected, the multitude of family names originating from everywhere in the
Med and beyond, and no-one is stigmatised. There are no ethnic groups. All
are Gibraltarians and equally so. Non-Gibraltarians are always welcome.
Ken
Gurriato
Fucking lies. There is no bilingual education in Catalonia.
Catalonia is a cultural dictatorship. EDUCATION IS IN CATALAN ONLY.
The school system ( refered to as the "immersion") doesn't allow the
education of the 65% of the population in their mother tongue, Spanish.
DON NICANOR TOCANDO EL TAMBOR
Gurriato
"Immersion" is not perpetrated by the Spanish State but the Catalonian
Generalitat.
Okay.Now, a few basic points about Spain you never learnt in school. One of
the firts things to learn about Spain is that Polakos are a bunch of
monothematic, one-track-minded assholes.
You have to be realistic about Polakos, they tend to use any possible
topic to advance their neurotic ideologies: Gibraltar and the Catalan
Problem, The South American Armadillo and the Catalan Problem, The Holes in
the Ozone Layer and the Catalan Problem, Quantum Physics and the Catalan
Problem...
Well, I don't believe that Mr. Caradura, I mean Mr.Carauana will be terribly
concerned about Godofredo el Peludo's deeds, especially after your criminal
economy collapses all around you. He has more mundane concerns, green in
color.
Jim Watt
<pata...@netnitco.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Well, I don't believe that Mr. Caradura, I mean Mr.Carauana will be terribly
>concerned about Godofredo el Peludo's deeds, especially after your criminal
>economy collapses all around you. He has more mundane concerns, green in
>color.
There is no criminal economy its just a BIG lie thats used to justify
Spain's unreasonable desire to annex the territory of Gibraltar
contrary to the freely expressed wishes of its people.
I really worry about the EU when all certain states seem to want
to do is missuse its institutions for their twisted undemocratic
purposes.
We are still due an apology for the nonsense from Ms Palacio
about the Prestige.
Almogaver
Yes I couldn't have put it better myself. I find Gibraltar's case
really interesting and from what you say it looks like it's anything
but over. Hopefully it will work out well for you. I'm not too sure I
agree with your outlook in 30 or 40 years though. A lot of attitudes
are passed on from generation to generation and seem to persist no
matter what. Like yourself I'm not anti Spain or Spanish people. I
have many Spanish friends, like I said the vast majority are fairly
reasonable people and can understand the concept of difference and
will make an effort to adapt and integrate. Obviously the situation in
Gib is very different to ours because as you rightly said, the place
is so tiny. In a way, that's good because it precludes the creation of
massive immigrant ghettos. Such places are ideal to brew the sort of
specimens we suffer in these NGs, they are the result of irresponsible
and corrupt planners and politicians of the past and now we are left
to pick up the pieces.
By the way, your definition of tolerance got me thinking and I have to
say it's really accurate, I just never thought of it that way before.
And when you say non Gibraltarians are always welcome I hope you
include Gurriato, Ciudadano et al -:))) We have them as mascots in
soc.culture.catalan, there even used to be a web page dedicated to one
of them for a while. Inoffensive white noise generators really. You
see, one really needs a dissenting voice every so often to spice up
the discussions so we hired a couple of gobshites prone to the use of
the expletive. Got them off the dole queue, we got our little
"enemies", everybody is happy. A bit of harmless fun really.
Anyway I hope you guys have a happy Xmas down there and that 2003
helps further your cause.
spitfire
"Gurriato" <pata...@netnitco.net> wrote in message news:<bLycnZ4y9bq...@netnitco.net>...
spitfire
CIUDADANO DEL PAIS CHARNEGO <viper....@gmx.de> wrote in message news:<Xns92E8B21F2AF33w...@66.150.105.46>...
Ken
Amen bro! As we say in Gib, where Eng is the language of anything of
importance and Sp is the language of the bar and the street, cada uno en su
casa y Dios en la de todos.
Ken