Identity Treadmill
Lynx
thing as Gibraltarian Citizenship. To my amazement, no one came out in
defence of the concept of Gibraltarian Citizenship. Not even a squeak.
//English dictionary:
Citizen = An inhabitant of a city; a freeman; a townsman; a member of a
state.
Citizenship = The state of being a citizen; the rights and duties of a
citizen. (Old French: citeain)
If none of the above applies to a gibraltarian, what then, is the status of
a gibraltarian, even in his/her homeland?
Gibraltarian = An inhabitant of Gibraltar
The English definition for Gibraltarian is non-identity-definitive. Anyone
can be an inhabitant anywhere. One is reminded of a tenant inhabiting a
rented dwelling.
//Spanish dictionary (Real Academia Esañola):
Gibraltareño = Natural de Gibraltar. Perteneciente o relativo a esta ciudad.
The Spanish definition, by contrast, is identity-definitive; someone who is
natural (native) to Gibraltar. This definition transcends that of
inhabitant, giving Gibraltareño/Gibraltarian a defined link to his/her
homeland, wherever they may be, at home or abroad.
Jim Watt
>It was recently stated in this forum, categorically, that there is no such
>thing as Gibraltarian Citizenship. To my amazement, no one came out in
>defence of the concept of Gibraltarian Citizenship. Not even a squeak.
because its a simple statement of fact.
--
Jim Watt
http://www.gibnet.com
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:ub4en2p3boci9o31g...@4ax.com...
We have a Gibraltar Currency, a National Day, a National Anthem and a Flag,
an Electorate, Elections and Referendums, a Chief Minister and a House of
Representaives. Gibraltarians are issued with a BDTCs (British dependent
territories citizens) Passports. Gibraltarians are therefore Citizens of
that dependent territory called Gibraltar. This means that Gibraltarians are
Citizens of Gibraltar.
M
Jim Watt
1. There is no Gibraltar currency
2. Gibraltarians have passports that say 'British Citizen' exactly
the same as UK nationals.
There are no 'Citizens of Gibraltar', de facto the Gibraltarians are
but the actual status does not exist.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
1. The Gibraltar pound is pegged to the British pound, 1 to 1. It's
international code is GIP, while the British pound international code is
GBP. These two currencies are internationally recognised as different. The
GIP is not the only currency pegged to another at a constant value.
2. The following is an extract from the UK Passport Service:
BDTCs are people who obtained their citizenship from a connection with a
territory that remains a British dependency, for example Gibraltar or
Bermuda.
http://www.passport.gov.uk/general_rules_ami.asp
Gibraltarians accepting straight-out UK passports are renouncing their
birthright citizenship by default. If this is, in fact, taking place, then
it is contrary to the UK Passport Service statement, and may well be
contravening British, if not also Gibraltar's, legislation. Not so long ago
Gibraltarians holding British issued Colonial passports, marked GIBRALTAR,
were denied the right of abode in the UK.
M
darius
Lynx wrote:
> Gibraltarians are issued with a BDTCs (British dependent
> territories citizens) Passports. Gibraltarians are therefore Citizens of
> that dependent territory called Gibraltar. This means that Gibraltarians are
> Citizens of Gibraltar.
> M
Utter rubbish I'm affraid.
[Firstly, Gibraltar is not a dependand teritory. While obviously a
wrong statement in practioce (given that Gibraltar is not dependant
upon anyone) it is also legally wrong given that BDT were abolished and
replaced by British Overseas Teritories, therefore the term cannot
legally be applied today.]
Secondly, and more importantly: You seem to be interpreting BDTC (or
equally BOTC) as being a citizen of a OT (or DT). However it is
actually a form of British citizenship, therfore a BDTC (or BOTC) is a
British citizen of type 'OT' (or 'DT'), that doesn't mean they are not
British citizens, they are just a different type. But the key point is
they are still British citizens, not citizens of the teritory.
British citizenship is a concept far greater than the UK.
In general, the key concept you need to remember that 'British
citizenship' does not simply relate to the UK. Various people have
British Citizenship (of various levels, including in Gibraltars case
'full') without any association of them to the UK, only of them to
British citizenship.
Gibraltar is British, that does not mean it is part of the United
Kingdom.
Because Gibraltar is British the Gibraltar passport is the British
passport, that doesn't mean people are saying they are from the UK not
from Gibraltar.
Jim Watt
>1. The Gibraltar pound is pegged to the British pound
Been there and done that argument. The 'Gibraltar Pound' is a myth
there is an ISO code, but you can't actually buy GIP's or have a
bank account denominated in them.
>Gibraltarians accepting straight-out UK passports are renouncing their
>birthright citizenship by default.
I have a Gibraltar Passport, it says 'British Citizen' almost everyone
here has the same. Otherwise you can't go to America on the visa
waiver programme.
Lynx
"darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165502485.5...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Lynx wrote:
>
>> Gibraltarians are issued with a BDTCs (British dependent
>> territories citizens) Passports. Gibraltarians are therefore Citizens of
>> that dependent territory called Gibraltar. This means that Gibraltarians
>> are
>> Citizens of Gibraltar.
> Darius wrote:
> Utter rubbish I'm affraid.
So, the UK Passport Service statement is utter rubbish, according to you.
May I ask what your stake might be in this matter?
> [Firstly, Gibraltar is not a dependand teritory. While obviously a
> wrong statement in practioce (given that Gibraltar is not dependant
> upon anyone) it is also legally wrong given that BDT were abolished and
> replaced by British Overseas Teritories, therefore the term cannot
> legally be applied today.]
>
> Secondly, and more importantly: You seem to be interpreting BDTC (or
> equally BOTC) as being a citizen of a OT (or DT). However it is
> actually a form of British citizenship, therfore a BDTC (or BOTC) is a
> British citizen of type 'OT' (or 'DT'), that doesn't mean they are not
> British citizens, they are just a different type. But the key point is
> they are still British citizens, not citizens of the teritory.
Greetings. I am not arguing the fact that Gib's British and therefore so are
my fellow Gibraltarians, etc, etc, etc.
The point I am trying to get at is; A// Do Gibraltarians have Gibraltar
Citizenship, and B// If, as Jim has stated, there is no such thing as Gib
Citizenship, how then can we claim any rights to our homeland if in fact,
there is no recognition of Gibraltar Citizenship.
Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, it is not I but the UK Passport
Service who states that: BDTCs are people who obtained their citizenship
from a connection with a territory that remains a British dependency, for
example Gibraltar or Bermuda.
http://www.passport.gov.uk/general_rules_ami.asp This official statement
counter to your unsubstantiated statement.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
>B// If, as Jim has stated, there is no such thing as Gib
> Citizenship,
Jim Watt states many wrong things, for example, he says there is no such
things as Gibraltar Pounds except the bank notes say the words 'Gibraltar'
and 'Pounds' on them!
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:42:21 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>1. The Gibraltar pound is pegged to the British pound
>
> Been there and done that argument. The 'Gibraltar Pound' is a myth
> there is an ISO code, but you can't actually buy GIP's or have a
> bank account denominated in them.
What you're saying is that there is no Gib reserves which can guarantee or
support the buying power of the GIP, even though it has an international
code, an exchange rate, and it circulates in Gib's economy. You make an
interesting point. If you cannot have a bank account denominated in GIP,
does it followthen, that you cannot draft a cheque in GIPs? Is real estate
in Gib sold in GIP or GBP?
>>Gibraltarians accepting straight-out UK passports are renouncing their
>>birthright citizenship by default.
>
> I have a Gibraltar Passport, it says 'British Citizen' almost everyone
> here has the same. Otherwise you can't go to America on the visa
> waiver programme.
UK of GB and NI Passports are not issued to British Citizens in Gib? Do
Gibraltarians have a choice of Passports?
How does the Gib Passport differ from the UK Passport? On the front
inside-cover, is the request for free passage without hindrance, made on
behalf of HM or the GG?
What is the official status of the landmass called Gibraltar?
I should know all these things, but I don't.
Lynx
"JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net> wrote in message
news:SpmdnZeKL-eNPuXY...@pipex.net...
Very true, I myself have bought goods in Gib with GIPs. I have also
exchanged GIP's at Heathrow Apt.
My initial inquiry regarding Gibraltar Citizenship seems to have gone by the
wayside. Instead of discussing the point, the only feedback so far has been
one of defending Gib's British status. This is totally void of the original
question, which was; is there such a thing as Gibraltar Citizenship?
darius
Lynx wrote:
> So, the UK Passport Service statement is utter rubbish, according to you.
The problem is that the meanings you have attached to words are
different to the meanings that they have attached to words.
You have attached meanings that, while perfectly logicial from the
starting point 'citizenship' in day to day terms, do not actually apply
when it comes to legally defining British citizenship.
> Greetings. I am not arguing the fact that Gib's British and therefore so are
> my fellow Gibraltarians, etc, etc, etc.
> The point I am trying to get at is; A// Do Gibraltarians have Gibraltar
> Citizenship, and B// If, as Jim has stated, there is no such thing as Gib
> Citizenship, how then can we claim any rights to our homeland if in fact,
> there is no recognition of Gibraltar Citizenship.
Hi.
The people of Gibraltar are "British Citizens".
Their homeland is British, they have rights in their homeland.
The people of the United Kingdom are "British Citizens".
Their homeland is British, they have righs in their homeland.
That does NOT mean that the people of Gibraltar are declaring them
selves to have the citizenship of the UK. Because "British citizenship"
is a concept that goes beyond the UK. While the people of the UK are
british citizens, that does not mean that all British citizens are
people of the UK.
The people of Gibraltar are British citizens, that does not mean that
all brtish citizens are people of Gibraltar does it.
So, in the case of British citizenship, it is a concept that goes
beyond the concept of the UK, it applied to other places too.
In day to day terms (very important to note this is only when using
'citizen' with a small 'c'), the people of the UK are 'citizens' of the
United Kindom, but their Citizenship is British, not United Kingdomish.
In day to day terms, the people of Gibraltar are citizens of Gibraltar
(small 'c'), but legally their Citizenship is British. [Just as the
people of the UK are British Citizens, not UK Citizens.]
> Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, it is not I but the UK Passport
> Service who states that: BDTCs are people who obtained their citizenship
> from a connection with a territory that remains a British dependency, for
> example Gibraltar or Bermuda.
Yes, - people can obtain forms of British citizenship by connection to
a place.
In the case of Gibraltar, it used to be that the BDTC type of British
Citizenship was the form attained, now it is the 'full' type.
But in NO case was it that they obtained Citizenship of the teritory,
they always obtained some form (or another) of British Citizenship
(something which doesn't got with any teritory and exists
independently.
The people of the United Kingdom have a form of British citizenship.
(Not UK citizenship, but a form of British).
The people of the Isle of Man (which is not part of the UK) have a form
of British Citizenship.
> http://www.passport.gov.uk/general_rules_ami.asp This official statement
> counter to your unsubstantiated statement.
No it's not counter.
- It's that their meanings to the words are different.
Also, that is a basic overview, its not the legislation covering this
matter itself.
The people of gibraltar are, in normal usage terms, 'citizens' of
Gibraltar. But their legal status is British Citizen. That doesn't mean
citizen of the United Kingdom, it means something else, something that
is an independent concept / legal construction.
They have rights in Gibraltar.
darius
darius wrote:
> (something which doesn't got with any teritory and exists
> independently.
Applogies the poor language, that should be:
"(something which doesn't imply a specific teritory and exists
independently)".
I was very tired but edited my post a bit. - This resulted in quite a
few howlers being constructed during the editing, of which that was by
far the worst.
Lynx
Darius wrote:
> Hi.
> The people of Gibraltar are "British Citizens".
> Their homeland is British, they have rights in their homeland.
>
> The people of the United Kingdom are "British Citizens".
> Their homeland is British, they have righs in their homeland.>
> Gibraltar. But their legal status is British Citizen. That doesn't mean
> citizen of the United Kingdom, it means something else, something that
> is an independent concept / legal construction.
> They have rights in Gibraltar.
I have read and taken note of all of your posting and snipped part of it to
economise on downloading.
Constitutions are written in plain simple English, or whatever may be the
official language of the relevant country/state.
The people of the UK and Northern Ireland are Citizens, as such, of these
territories. They have Nationality and Citizenship rights within those
borders.
Gibraltar, as you well suggest, does not fall within the realm of the
British Isles. Consequently, and as the wording in the UK Passport Service
statement says, Gibraltar remains a British territory, and so the inhabitant
Gibraltarians are British. No one is questioning any of these statements or
understanding. The one point raised, and which no one has thus far answered
convincingly is, that there seems to be no official recognition of Gibraltar
Citizenship. In other words and hypothetically speaking, should Gib cease to
be a British territory, Gibraltarians would have no immediate claim to our
homeland. For Gib no longer being British, and Gibraltarians being British
citizens, would have no legal claim to a non- British landmass.
The connectivity I am seeking, if indeed it exists, is one where
Gibraltarians are legally and constitutionally bound and linked to
Gibraltar, regardless of Gib being or not being a British territory. So the
unanswered question stands, do Gibraltarians have Gibraltar Citizenship. Yes
or No, should be the answer.
Lynx
>
> darius wrote:
>
> Applogies the poor language, that should be:
> "(something which doesn't imply a specific teritory and exists
> independently)".
Ambiguity should not be considered when dealing with the territorial rights
of a people and their homeland. Wouldn't you agree?
> I was very tired but edited my post a bit. - This resulted in quite a
> few howlers being constructed during the editing, of which that was by
> far the worst.
No problems, it happens to all of us.
darius
Lynx wrote:
> "darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165538772.1...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Darius wrote:
> > Hi.
> > The people of Gibraltar are "British Citizens".
> > Their homeland is British, they have rights in their homeland.
> >
> > The people of the United Kingdom are "British Citizens".
> > Their homeland is British, they have righs in their homeland.>
> > The people of gibraltar are, in normal usage terms, 'citizens' of
> > Gibraltar. But their legal status is British Citizen. That doesn't mean
> > citizen of the United Kingdom, it means something else, something that
> > is an independent concept / legal construction.
> > They have rights in Gibraltar.
>
> I have read and taken note of all of your posting and snipped part of it to
> economise on downloading.
>
> Constitutions are written in plain simple English, or whatever may be the
> official language of the relevant country/state.
Sadly it is legal instruments which governs these issues.
And when it comes to the British Sovereign and respective subjects,
peoples, teritories, domains etc. then things get about as complicated
as you can get.
It would be manifestly wrong to state that what governs British
Citizenship and related issues is laid out in plain simple English,
because it is not.
> The people of the UK and Northern Ireland are Citizens, as such, of these
> territories. They have Nationality and Citizenship rights within those
> borders.
They are residents (etc) of their respective teritories and as such
they may be said to be citizens (with a small 'c') of thouse
teritories. In everyday usage of the word citizen, they are citizens of
their teritories.
Their nationality would be given as British Citizen.
[Obviously all this is for typical people in all cases.]
> Gibraltar, as you well suggest, does not fall within the realm of the
> British Isles.
The British Isles is something else, its almost exclusivly only a
geographical term for a group of islands. Gibraltar does not fall
within the United Kingdom nation state.
[It obviously also does not fall within the British Isles in
geographical terms.]
There is no connection between the term British Isles and British
Citizen. In fact you should not even really think there is a connection
between Great Britain and British Citizen. British Citizen is devoid of
a defacto geographical location or connection. Historically there is
common origin but they have diverged.
> Consequently, and as the wording in the UK Passport Service
> statement says, Gibraltar remains a British territory, and so the inhabitant
> Gibraltarians are British. No one is questioning any of these statements or
> understanding. The one point raised, and which no one has thus far answered
> convincingly is, that there seems to be no official recognition of Gibraltar
> Citizenship.
But that's not how British Citizenship works with respect to anyone.
You could equally say there is no recognition of UK Citizenship (with a
big 'C').
Please acknowledge this if you acknowledge nothing else I've posted.
> In other words and hypothetically speaking, should Gib cease to
> be a British territory, Gibraltarians would have no immediate claim to our
> homeland.
With regard to claims to homeland, almost no homeland is claimed or has
been claimed on a legal basis what so ever. It is almost always claimed
on other, more moral grounds.
>From a legal basis it is pretty much impossible, consider:
1. Gibraltar is legally British - & BY THAT I MEAN: it is legislation
and construction in law which establishes this. 2. People in Gibraltar
legally hold "British Citizenship", - & BY THAT I MEAN: it is
legislation and construction in law which is establishes this. 3. The
rights of people are granted and established by law. - & BY THAT I
MEAN: it is legislation and construction in law which is establishes
this.
Therefore, as all 3 of these are established by law, it is impossible
for there to be some 'greater' legal entitlement of people to their
homeland.
Being a British Citizen is geogrphically neutral, it is fully
compatible with the rights of the people of Gibraltar to their
homeland. To have a status of Gibraltar Citizen would be something
totally different to the way British Citizenship works.
> For Gib no longer being British, and Gibraltarians being British
> citizens, would have no legal claim to a non- British landmass.
> The connectivity I am seeking, if indeed it exists, is one where
> Gibraltarians are legally and constitutionally bound and linked to
> Gibraltar, regardless of Gib being or not being a British territory.
No they would not.
The same as the people of Kent would not, if Kent became French, have
rights in Kent going forward. They would have to be legally provided
for.
It is legislation that provides for them presently, and it is also
legislation that makes Kent British.
There is not a greater level conceptually possible to give them a legal
entitlement to Kent. It would only be a moral one.
> So the
> unanswered question stands, do Gibraltarians have Gibraltar Citizenship. Yes
> or No, should be the answer.
No.
Because no British Citizen has Citizenship (with a capital 'C') of
their teritory. Including thouse in England with respect to England.
A concept of 'Citizen of Gibraltar' (a geographical location) would be
utterly different to the concept of 'British Citizen'. It need not be
incompatible. But remember if you comparing them as concepts you are
not be comparing like with like.
That is why being a 'Britsih Citizen' (in particular) is not dangerous
for a Gibraltar person in terms of right to homeland.
darius
Lynx wrote:
> "darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165539424.4...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > darius wrote:
> >
> > Applogies the poor language, that should be:
> > "(something which doesn't imply a specific teritory and exists
> > independently)".
>
> Ambiguity should not be considered when dealing with the territorial rights
> of a people and their homeland. Wouldn't you agree?
The situation with the word British is about as complicated as things
can get.
I'm not sure it really is ambiguous, just very complicated, highly
broken down into separate concepts, and never been laidout singularly
in one place.
Hopefully once the internal government structure of the United Kindom
(in terms of the individual nations) is finally sorted out and evolves
a bit more, I think there might well be room to simplify things.
Lynx
>
> Sadly it is legal instruments which governs these issues.
> And when it comes to the British Sovereign and respective subjects,
> peoples, teritories, domains etc. then things get about as complicated
> as you can get.
>
> It would be manifestly wrong to state that what governs British
> Citizenship and related issues is laid out in plain simple English,
> because it is not.
A peoples Constitution need not be, and in most cases is not, a complicated
document. The laws of governance therein referred to may be as convoluted as
need be, but not so the wording of a Constitution.
>> The people of the UK and Northern Ireland are Citizens, as such, of these
>> territories. They have Nationality and Citizenship rights within those
>> borders.
>
> They are residents (etc) of their respective teritories and as such
> they may be said to be citizens (with a small 'c') of thouse
> teritories. In everyday usage of the word citizen, they are citizens of
> their teritories.
They are Citizens of that amalgam of islands collectively called United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is no question of this
reality. This is clearly stated in the front of any British Citizens
Passport. Any other Passport with anything different on the cover is, by
definition, a different passport giving the bearer different entitlements,
whatever they may be.
> Their nationality would be given as British Citizen.
> [Obviously all this is for typical people in all cases.]
The term British has been applied widely and thinly, giving the term an
almost ethereal meaning. It lacks identity, especially when it can be
applied to people of such diverse ethnicity and cultural backgrounds, living
anywhere but in the UK. Gibraltarians have always had a strong sense of
identity. Perhaps accentuated by the geological fingerprint the Rock stamps
on what is otherwise a relatively flat expanse of land in the immediate
vicinity.
>> Gibraltar, as you well suggest, does not fall within the realm of the
>> British Isles.
>
> The British Isles is something else, its almost exclusivly only a
> geographical term for a group of islands. Gibraltar does not fall
> within the United Kingdom nation state.
> [It obviously also does not fall within the British Isles in
> geographical terms.]
Wrong. The UK of GB and NI is a defined Nationality, which gives its
Citizens a set of rights and responsibilities.
> There is no connection between the term British Isles and British
> Citizen. In fact you should not even really think there is a connection
> between Great Britain and British Citizen. British Citizen is devoid of
> a defacto geographical location or connection. Historically there is
> common origin but they have diverged.
Wrong. Check the passport of any British National of UK of GB and NI.
>> Consequently, and as the wording in the UK Passport Service
>> statement says, Gibraltar remains a British territory, and so the
>> inhabitant
>> Gibraltarians are British. No one is questioning any of these statements
>> or
>> understanding. The one point raised, and which no one has thus far
>> answered
>> convincingly is, that there seems to be no official recognition of
>> Gibraltar
>> Citizenship.
>
> But that's not how British Citizenship works with respect to anyone.
> You could equally say there is no recognition of UK Citizenship (with a
> big 'C').
>
> Please acknowledge this if you acknowledge nothing else I've posted.
I do not agree with you. You simply cannot have an Englishman born in
England, denied his unique Nationality and Citizenship rights, on the
premise that the term British has been scattered far and wide. Gibraltar is
a British Colony/Protectorate/Territory/Dependency. Any and all of these
nouns can and do apply. None of which addresses the Status of the
Gibraltarians and a National Entity.
>> In other words and hypothetically speaking, should Gib cease to
>> be a British territory, Gibraltarians would have no immediate claim to
>> our
>> homeland.
>
> With regard to claims to homeland, almost no homeland is claimed or has
> been claimed on a legal basis what so ever. It is almost always claimed
> on other, more moral grounds.
I am not sure what nationality you are or which country you live in. But let
me assure you that you need travel documents to cross borders. More
importantly though, any homeland invaded by a foreign entity is classified
as an act of war. The invaded nationals would have all the rights in the
world to defend themselves and that land which is naturally theirs, their
homeland. What could be more moral than claiming and defending your country?
All of this is almost superfluous. The point in question has been distorted
and remains unanswered.
Lynx
Britain is undeniably a great country. It has given much to the world. It is
a sorry state of affairs that it should be seen by some as a disjointed
entity.
>
Jim Watt
>What you're saying is that there is no Gib reserves which can guarantee or
>support the buying power of the GIP, even though it has an international
>code, an exchange rate, and it circulates in Gib's economy.
It does NOT circulate, the notes are denominated in Sterling not
Gibraltar pouunds, which was a myth made up by Barclays Bank to
charge everyone .25% exchange and which was ruled illegal.
Its an involved argument.
>UK of GB and NI Passports are not issued to British Citizens in Gib? Do
>Gibraltarians have a choice of Passports?
There are two things, where the passport is issued and who it is
issue to. Gibraltarians can have a passport issued in Gibraltar,
the UK, or the British Embassy in Madrid, etc depending on how
much they want to pay and where they are at the time. The party
issuing it is immaterial as they are all the same legally.
The wording may differ, in the Gibraltar ones the intro is by the
Governor on behalf of the Queen. Some people are anxious that
when abroad ignorant immigration people may not recognise its a
proper British passport and have UK issued ones instead, which cost
more money and take longer to obtain. I've had additional delays
due to the word Gibraltar on mine, so their fears are real, but
there again I can argue adequately and have, and enter the UK on
the Gib ID card rather than a passport to air it.
>How does the Gib Passport differ from the UK Passport? On the front
>inside-cover, is the request for free passage without hindrance, made on
>behalf of HM or the GG?
HM takes responsibility for her citizens.
>What is the official status of the landmass called Gibraltar?
UK Overseas territory.
Its wet today.
Jim Watt
>
>"JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net> wrote in message
>news:SpmdnZeKL-eNPuXY...@pipex.net...
>>
>>>B// If, as Jim has stated, there is no such thing as Gib
>>> Citizenship,
>>
>> Jim Watt states many wrong things, for example, he says there is no such
>> things as Gibraltar Pounds except the bank notes say the words
>> 'Gibraltar' and 'Pounds' on them!
>
>Very true
read one and see for yourself who is right. The notes
certainly say Gibraltar and Pounds but not together.
They do, however, say 'Pounds sterling'.
>is there such a thing as Gibraltar Citizenship?
No because Gibraltar is not a sovereign state.
Jim Watt
>All of this is almost superfluous. The point in question has been distorted
>and remains unanswered.
The answer is no, however the only people who have an unrestricted
right of residence in Gibraltar are Gibraltarians.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:26:35 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>is there such a thing as Gibraltar Citizenship?
>
> No because Gibraltar is not a sovereign state.
So what is HRH to Gibraltar then? The next referendum should be on the
question of Gibraltar Citizenship.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:04:58 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>All of this is almost superfluous. The point in question has been
>>distorted
>>and remains unanswered.
>
> The answer is no, however the only people who have an unrestricted
> right of residence in Gibraltar are Gibraltarians.
As a Gibraltarian I think the answer sucks. As for unrestricted right of
residence, you can pull the other leg. Like I've said before, the more I've
visited the place the less Gibbos and more aliens I've seen.
darius
<snip>
I've cut a few bits, but I don't necessarily agree with what you say.
I really believe you are using a concept of Citizen which does not
legally exists when it comes to British Citizens in British land.
Lynx wrote:
> "darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165547916.1...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> Gibraltar, as you well suggest, does not fall within the realm of the
> >> British Isles.
> >
> > The British Isles is something else, its almost exclusivly only a
> > geographical term for a group of islands. Gibraltar does not fall
> > within the United Kingdom nation state.
> > [It obviously also does not fall within the British Isles in
> > geographical terms.]
>
> Wrong. The UK of GB and NI is a defined Nationality, which gives its
> Citizens a set of rights and responsibilities.
You said the British Isles.
> > There is no connection between the term British Isles and British
> > Citizen. In fact you should not even really think there is a connection
> > between Great Britain and British Citizen. British Citizen is devoid of
> > a defacto geographical location or connection. Historically there is
> > common origin but they have diverged.
>
> Wrong. Check the passport of any British National of UK of GB and NI.
A passport is issued to a person. A passport is a document which makes
requests and grants authorisation.
Two people could have different types of British passport, expressing
things differently.
That would not mean that the form of full British Citizenship they have
differs, only that the document they are carying as a passport is
different.
[A passport is not the place to find a definiation of terms which have
any scope beyond that passport.]
> >> Consequently, and as the wording in the UK Passport Service
> >> statement says, Gibraltar remains a British territory, and so the
> >> inhabitant
> >> Gibraltarians are British. No one is questioning any of these statements
> >> or
> >> understanding. The one point raised, and which no one has thus far
> >> answered
> >> convincingly is, that there seems to be no official recognition of
> >> Gibraltar
> >> Citizenship.
> >
> > But that's not how British Citizenship works with respect to anyone.
> > You could equally say there is no recognition of UK Citizenship (with a
> > big 'C').
> >
> > Please acknowledge this if you acknowledge nothing else I've posted.
>
> I do not agree with you. You simply cannot have an Englishman born in
> England, denied his unique Nationality and Citizenship rights, on the
> premise that the term British has been scattered far and wide. Gibraltar is
> a British Colony/Protectorate/Territory/Dependency. Any and all of these
> nouns can and do apply. None of which addresses the Status of the
> Gibraltarians and a National Entity.
Thats how it works for an Englishman. He is not an English Citizen (big
'C'), Of course he as rights in England. But it's not posession of
'English Citizenship' that grants him that.
A person from Gibraltar is not a Gibraltar Citizen. Of course they have
rights in Gibraltar. But it is not posession of 'Gibraltar Citizenship'
which gives them these rights.
[Because neither of them posess such things.]
> >> In other words and hypothetically speaking, should Gib cease to
> >> be a British territory, Gibraltarians would have no immediate claim to
> >> our
> >> homeland.
> >
> > With regard to claims to homeland, almost no homeland is claimed or has
> > been claimed on a legal basis what so ever. It is almost always claimed
> > on other, more moral grounds.
>
> I am not sure what nationality you are or which country you live in. But let
> me assure you that you need travel documents to cross borders. More
> importantly though, any homeland invaded by a foreign entity is classified
> as an act of war. The invaded nationals would have all the rights in the
> world to defend themselves and that land which is naturally theirs, their
> homeland. What could be more moral than claiming and defending your country?
I'm a (full) British Citizen, resident for a very long time (and still
resident) in Gibraltar.
I don't know how old you are, how much education you have recieved or
how well traveled/read you are of the world beyond Gibraltar. But you
are looking at things in different way, and what is being said has a
different meaning and significance.
You are looking for the people of Gibraltar having legal entitlement to
Gibraltar.
If you wished to create a companion status of Gibraltar Citizen I would
not oppose.
But it would not be comparable to a status of Bitish Citizen, it would
be a different type of thing.
> All of this is almost superfluous. The point in question has been distorted
> and remains unanswered.
No it hasn't. There is no legal concept of Citizen in the way you are
using the term with regard to British Citizens.
If you said the people of Gibraltar should have something called
Gibraltar Citizenship (big 'C') as well, I'm fine with that. But it is
something different to British Citizenship. If you said the people of
England should have 'English Citizenship' as well as British I'd be
fine with that too.
But remember these would just be legal statments. The statement that
Gibraltar is British is a legal statement. Therefore thinking that this
would be some form of magic safeguard is wrong. If there was a legal
change in Gibraltars status, such an a additional status would be
irrelevant, it would be down to what was said in the legal transfer of
status.
darius
Of cousre. We live in a modern world, a world with easy travel.
It would be very sad for you to wish all people from Gibraltar to
remain in Gibraltar.
Equally, if you expect the right to travel the world, then that right
must extent to others to move to Gibraltar.
In the case of a smaller place such as Gibraltar the rate of this will
be fast. In percentage terms acquiring a high percentage of new people
quickly.
Fortunatly small places have a natural break which gets applied, the
lack of land makes property a longer term dimension.
[There is a serious racism problem in Gibraltar. Defining people as
aliens or Gibbos is only the start of it.]
[It would also be seriously nieve of an person from Gibraltar to oppose
the culture of movement of people as a result of trade and travel
links.]
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:13:55 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>What you're saying is that there is no Gib reserves which can guarantee or
>>support the buying power of the GIP, even though it has an international
>>code, an exchange rate, and it circulates in Gib's economy.
>
> It does NOT circulate, the notes are denominated in Sterling not
> Gibraltar pouunds, which was a myth made up by Barclays Bank to
> charge everyone .25% exchange and which was ruled illegal.
>
> Its an involved argument.
Sure it is. In the world of numismatics we're well aware of Gibraltar tokens
circulating in Gibraltar back in the 1800's.
I miss what you say about Barclays Bank and the GIP. Please elaborate.
>>UK of GB and NI Passports are not issued to British Citizens in Gib? Do
>>Gibraltarians have a choice of Passports?
>
> There are two things, where the passport is issued and who it is
> issue to. Gibraltarians can have a passport issued in Gibraltar,
> the UK, or the British Embassy in Madrid, etc depending on how
> much they want to pay and where they are at the time. The party
> issuing it is immaterial as they are all the same legally.
>
> The wording may differ, in the Gibraltar ones the intro is by the
> Governor on behalf of the Queen. Some people are anxious that
> when abroad ignorant immigration people may not recognise its a
> proper British passport and have UK issued ones instead, which cost
> more money and take longer to obtain. I've had additional delays
> due to the word Gibraltar on mine, so their fears are real, but
> there again I can argue adequately and have, and enter the UK on
> the Gib ID card rather than a passport to air it.
Nothing worse than a convert, right? Keep up the good ambassadorial work!
:))
>>How does the Gib Passport differ from the UK Passport? On the front
>>inside-cover, is the request for free passage without hindrance, made on
>>behalf of HM or the GG?
>
> HM takes responsibility for her citizens.
You have not answered my question. Is the request made on behalf of HM or
the GG?
>>What is the official status of the landmass called Gibraltar?
>
> UK Overseas territory.
There's no such thing in the UK Passport Service. See below:
British citizens
British dependent territories citizens (BDTCs)
British overseas citizens (BOCs)
British subjects
British nationals (overseas)
British protected persons
Non-eligibility
> Its wet today.
Our fire-fighters, especially our Country Fire Fighters ( a voluntary body)
had the day cutout for them. Fighting multiple bush-fires. The sky has been
a bright grey all day long. The brighter side was seeing a multitude of
wildlife within 20mins drive from my place. Kangaroos, parrots, ducks,
rosellas and more. Poor things must've been moving away from the fire zones.
M
Lynx
snip
>
> <snip>
> I've cut a few bits, but I don't necessarily agree with what you say.
> I really believe you are using a concept of Citizen which does not
> legally exists when it comes to British Citizens in British land.
Your concept of British Citizenship, which may well be right, but which I
fail to grasp, is almost maningless. By that I mean that it does not give
the bearer a defined nationality or status. I agree that the term British,
when applied to people, is most widely used. But it does not alter the fact,
in my books, that to be a British Citizen is defining someone who has rights
in the UK. There are varying clasifications of British Passport holders, as
defined by the UK Passport Service. But this does not detract from the fact
as I see it. That a British Citizen is first and foremost a Citizen of the
UK of G Britain and Nth I. As stated on a British Passport.
> A passport is issued to a person. A passport is a document which makes
> requests and grants authorisation.
Absolutely. It is issued to a person who is a national/citizen of the
issuing country. Only stateless persons get issued with a travel document,
resembling a passport, but very clearly marked, by a given country to which
that person does not belong. These are issued exclusively for travel from
point A to point B and have a limited use. And are always endorsed with a
visa to the country being visited.
> Two people could have different types of British passport, expressing
> things differently.
> That would not mean that the form of full British Citizenship they have
> differs, only that the document they are carying as a passport is
> different.
I agree. We have already established that there are different types of
British Passports.
> [A passport is not the place to find a definiation of terms which have
> any scope beyond that passport.]
> Thats how it works for an Englishman. He is not an English Citizen (big
> 'C'), Of course he as rights in England. But it's not posession of
> 'English Citizenship' that grants him that.
>
> A person from Gibraltar is not a Gibraltar Citizen. Of course they have
> rights in Gibraltar. But it is not posession of 'Gibraltar Citizenship'
> which gives them these rights.
>
> [Because neither of them posess such things.]
Granted. I cannot argue this point.
> I'm a (full) British Citizen, resident for a very long time (and still
> resident) in Gibraltar.
I am very well travelled and reside in Australia.
> You are looking for the people of Gibraltar having legal entitlement to
> Gibraltar.
> If you wished to create a companion status of Gibraltar Citizen I would
> not oppose.
>
> But it would not be comparable to a status of Bitish Citizen, it would
> be a different type of thing.
I find it interesting that when speaking up for Gibraltar and its people,
the reaction I often get is as if I were anti-British. The point I raised
had nothing to do with passports. It had everything to do with Gibraltar
Citizenship. Why? Because Gibraltar has for the last 300 years been claimed
by Spain. In two historically recorded instances, Britain negotiated
Gibraltar with Spain without any consideration for the British inhabitants
in Gib. TBlair being the second negotiator. It follows then, that the
British Gov cannot be wholly trusted. So what better than working towards a
Gib Citizenship, while remaining British? As you say, Britishness has no
geographical identity.
>> All of this is almost superfluous. The point in question has been
>> distorted
>> and remains unanswered.
>
> No it hasn't. There is no legal concept of Citizen in the way you are
> using the term with regard to British Citizens.
Deportation of illegal migrants is a daily occurance. If your passport gives
you the right of abode in the UK on account of you being a British Citizen,
I dare say your passport is a legal document, granting you legal rights.
Please check your passport under Nationality, it states your Citizenship. On
page 2, Note 2, it defines your rights on account of your Citizenship. I
will agree that other nationality passports state next to nothing, as to the
holders citizenship or rights. But not the British Passport.
Lynx
>
> Of cousre. We live in a modern world, a world with easy travel.
We do, but easy travel should not mean displacing the locals. I do not wish
to be so misunderstood as to be thought of a racist. You must agree though,
that when a place as small as Gibraltar, public moneys is put into luxury
developments for foreign inhabitants, it begs the question as to who is
governing in whose name.
> It would be very sad for you to wish all people from Gibraltar to
> remain in Gibraltar.
> Equally, if you expect the right to travel the world, then that right
> must extent to others to move to Gibraltar.
The bulk of any state's people should be the natives. Those who lived there
the longest. The streets of Gibraltar used to be alive at nightfall. You
could see people walking to and fro, you could hear the murmur and laughter
of people through the windows and balconies. My last visit to Gib, I looked
down Main St from my balcony and the place was dead. Except for some
hoodlums who were trashing garbage bins. That was not my Gibraltar. The
Patuca I was raised in.
> [There is a serious racism problem in Gibraltar. Defining people as
> aliens or Gibbos is only the start of it.]
I am not aware of any racism in Gib. If anything the Gibbos are too friendly
and hospitable. But if there is racism, I would like to know of it.
> [It would also be seriously nieve of an person from Gibraltar to oppose
> the culture of movement of people as a result of trade and travel
> links.]
I cannot agree. Travel and trade do not necessarily equate to usurping
another's homeland. Trade is trade, and travel is visiting.
It's not only Gibraltar where one sees the displacement of its people.
There's plenty of it going on in the UK itself.
Jim Watt
>Like I've said before, the more I've
>visited the place the less Gibbos and more aliens I've seen.
Were they grey with large eyes ?
Theres a Gibraltar space launch today in order to
redress the balance. Hope it goes well.
http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html
Launch expected between 10:08 p.m.and 10:51 p.m.on December 8
times in UTC.
JAJ
The UK Passport Service website scores about 0.5 out of 10 for its
explanation of British nationality law.
Under the British Nationality Act 1981, citizens of the UK and Colonies
connected with Gibraltar became British Dependent Territories citizens
(BDTCs) on 1 January 1983.
Section 5 of the British Nationality Act gave Gibraltarian BDTCs the
right to register as British citizens if they wished (and if they were
not already British citizens through connection with the UK).
Acquisition of British citizenship did not cause loss of BDTC.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/applying/nationality/formsandguidance/guideg
On 26 February 2002, British Dependent Territories citizenship (BDTC)
was renamed British overseas territories citizenship (BOTC).
On 21 May 2002, the British Overseas Territories Act 2002 conferred
British citizenship automatically on all Gibraltarian (and most other)
BOTCs. Again, BOTC was not lost but did effectively become a
subsidiary status.
Persons naturalised as BOTCs in Gibraltar after 21 May 2002 do not
become British citizens unless they apply for it, under either section
4A or 5 of the British Nationality Act. This is normally granted under
section 4A (in force since 21 May 2002, as part of the 2002 reforms)
and is an entitlement under the older section 5, which remains in
force.
The closest thing to Gibraltar "citizenship" is in fact the status of
"Gibraltar belonger" under the Gibraltar immigration laws. This status
can be held alongside British citizenship, British overseas territories
citizenship, or both.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:49:31 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>Like I've said before, the more I've
>>visited the place the less Gibbos and more aliens I've seen.
>
> Were they grey with large eyes ?
Yep! :))
> Theres a Gibraltar space launch today in order to
> redress the balance. Hope it goes well.
>
> http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html
Excellent site.
Lynx
news:1165613013.1...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Most informative. The website's worth a visit too. Good one!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_colony
The "belonger status" is an interesting concept. People from Hong Kong
boasted of belonger status too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belonger_status
An individual who can trace his ancestry for centuries in the one place
should, ideally, be above being "granted" belonger status. Gibraltar was
never a colony, in the true sense of the word. It was a military controlled
outpost. This outpost becoming populated, in the main, by people from Spain,
Portugal and Mediterranean cities. Gibraltar has for millennia been a place
where humans could sustain themselves, given the abundance of natural
resources both from sea and land. The Gibraltarians are a proud and
hospitable people born with the right to be granted belonger status.
Jim Watt
>> Theres a Gibraltar space launch today in order to
>> redress the balance. Hope it goes well.
>>
>> http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html
>
>Excellent site.
Indeed. The launch went well
http://www.gibnews.net/cgi-bin/gn_view.pl/?MISC061209_1.xml
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:27:53 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>> Theres a Gibraltar space launch today in order to
>>> redress the balance. Hope it goes well.
>>>
>>> http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html
>>
>>Excellent site.
>
> Indeed. The launch went well
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
news:772eh.4413$HU....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:42:21 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>1. The Gibraltar pound is pegged to the British pound
>>
>> Been there and done that argument. The 'Gibraltar Pound' is a myth
>> there is an ISO code, but you can't actually buy GIP's or have a
>> bank account denominated in them.
>
> What you're saying is that there is no Gib reserves which can guarantee or
> support the buying power of the GIP, even though it has an international
> code, an exchange rate, and it circulates in Gib's economy.
Gibraltar has a currency board, it's had it since 1927 one of the oldest in
the world. It guarantees that GIP can be exchanged to GBP freely throughout
Gibraltar. The Gibraltar Government holds slightly more GBP than GIP in
circulation to cover any mass selling of GIP, however this is very unlikely
as the system has operated without problems since 1927.
Despite Jim Watt's protestations the Gibraltar Pound is alive and well as is
a separate currency with its own currency code ISO 4217, look at this
official web page from the Gibraltar Government
http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/about_gib/wed_registry.htm is states that "All
fees are payable in pounds sterling or Gibraltar pounds"
>You make an interesting point. If you cannot have a bank account
>denominated in GIP,
Who says? Jim Watt and um err no one else!
> does it followthen, that you cannot draft a cheque in GIPs? Is real estate
> in Gib sold in GIP or GBP?
>
Doesn't matter as GBP & GIP are accepted 1:1, it makes sense to do any
trading transparent through the banking system.
Lynx
>
> "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> news:772eh.4413$HU....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> or support the buying power of the GIP, even though it has an
>> international code, an exchange rate, and it circulates in Gib's economy.
>
> Gibraltar has a currency board, it's had it since 1927 one of the oldest
> in the world. It guarantees that GIP can be exchanged to GBP freely
> throughout Gibraltar. The Gibraltar Government holds slightly more GBP
> than GIP in circulation to cover any mass selling of GIP, however this is
> very unlikely as the system has operated without problems since 1927.
>
> Despite Jim Watt's protestations the Gibraltar Pound is alive and well as
> is a separate currency with its own currency code ISO 4217, look at this
> official web page from the Gibraltar Government
> http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/about_gib/wed_registry.htm is states that "All
> fees are payable in pounds sterling or Gibraltar pounds"
In the international travel scene, where all official currencies are handled
and identified, the GIP is very much a recognised currency unit. However,
Jim having thrown in this Barclays Bank issue, about which I never heard
anything, I thought he might have been on to something crucial.
>>You make an interesting point. If you cannot have a bank account
>>denominated in GIP,
>
> Who says? Jim Watt and um err no one else!
Right, got it.
>> does it followthen, that you cannot draft a cheque in GIPs? Is real
>> estate in Gib sold in GIP or GBP?
>
> Doesn't matter as GBP & GIP are accepted 1:1, it makes sense to do any
> trading transparent through the banking system.
Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
Jim Watt
>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>
> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
Look in your wallet
Are bank accounts relevant to this discussion? Answer No
Does the Gibraltar currency have ISO Letters? Answer: Yes, GIP
Does the Gibraltar currency have an ISO code? Answer Yes, 4217
Do Gibraltar Notes exist? Answer, Yes, they have the words Gibraltar and
Pounds written on them.
Do Gibraltar Coins exist? Answer, Yes
Does Gibraltar have a currency board? Answer, Yes
Does the Gibraltar currency exist? Answer, Yes
Ken
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>
> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
The closest I've seen is a banknote circulating in Gibraltar with the words
"Govt of Gibraltar" printed on it. Other writing includes the words
"Sterling Pounds"
K
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>
> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
Yeah right, I'll be queuing outside Barclays this morning, on my
waaayyyy.........! I suspect you could be right, perhaps banks can dictate
what currency they accept.
Lynx
Well! That seems to set it in concrete. I've got some proof Gibraltar coins,
also mint Gibraltar denomination pound notes and coin sets. There's no
question there's a Gibraltar Currency.
Lynx
"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eletj...@news2.newsguy.com...
I think Jim's being a difficult pome. Remember the days when England would
not recognise Scottish pound notes?
Jim Watt
wrote:
>
>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>news:evkln2p92lhve73vd...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>>
>> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
>
>Look in your wallet
I have and there are no bits of paper saying
'Gibraltar Pound' plenty of pictures of casemates
and spitfires, and they all say 'Pounds sterling'
not a GIP in sight.
More evidence for bigfoot and Nessie.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
Should I offload my collection of GIP notes and coins???? :-(
Jim Watt
>
>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>news:493mn2l0vvi3rrnpi...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:38:44 -0000, "JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>>>news:evkln2p92lhve73vd...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>>>>
>>>> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
>>>
>>>Look in your wallet
>>
>> I have and there are no bits of paper saying
>> 'Gibraltar Pound' plenty of pictures of casemates
>> and spitfires, and they all say 'Pounds sterling'
>> not a GIP in sight.
>>
>> More evidence for bigfoot and Nessie.
>
>Should I offload my collection of GIP notes and coins???? :-(
If the notes say they are 'Gibraltar Pounds' then they
have been demonetorised and are of interest to collectors
and not shops.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
Farrr!.... So much for belonger currency......:-))
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
People from Gib get upset at times when Gib notes are not accepted in shops
in the UK. Well, I live in Sheffield and I've had Scottish notes turned down
here - as well as Jersey and IoMan coins too. Of course the best way to get
rid of these is in vending machines whch can't tell the difference. Indeed
the xenophobia regarding "other sterling" here is such that shops will not
even take Engish £50 notes!
It's not anything against Gib - it's just ignorance.
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:38:44 -0000, "JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>>news:evkln2p92lhve73vd...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>>>
>>> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
>>
>>Look in your wallet
>
> I have and there are no bits of paper saying
> 'Gibraltar Pound'
There are notes that have the words Gibraltar and Pounds written on them
and,
Lynx
snip
> People from Gib get upset at times when Gib notes are not accepted in
> shops in the UK. Well, I live in Sheffield and I've had Scottish notes
> turned down here - as well as Jersey and IoMan coins too. Of course the
> best way to get rid of these is in vending machines whch can't tell the
> difference. Indeed the xenophobia regarding "other sterling" here is such
> that shops will not even take Engish £50 notes!
>
> It's not anything against Gib - it's just ignorance.
Jim Watt
wrote:
>There are notes that have the words Gibraltar and Pounds written on them
The notes say lots of things, but they are pounds sterling not
Gibraltar pounds. and they do not claim to be GIP. Any notes
that do say 'Gibraltar Pounds' are obsolete and only worth anything
to collectors.
You cannot open a bank account in GIP
I know you are thick, but sooner or later you will understand.
Jim Watt
>
>"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:elh0c...@news4.newsguy.com...
>snip
>> People from Gib get upset at times when Gib notes are not accepted in
>> shops in the UK. Well, I live in Sheffield and I've had Scottish notes
>> turned down here - as well as Jersey and IoMan coins too. Of course the
>> best way to get rid of these is in vending machines whch can't tell the
>> difference. Indeed the xenophobia regarding "other sterling" here is such
>> that shops will not even take Engish Ł50 notes!
>>
>> It's not anything against Gib - it's just ignorance.
>How can they be so ignorant?
Gibraltar notes are only legal tender in Gibraltar.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:37:52 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
> Gibraltar notes are only legal tender in Gibraltar.
legal tender here or any other country, except in Gibraltar.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
While your, typically insultive, retoric is directed at Jimmy, I ask you.
How can a Gibraltar Pound Note be Sterling? How can any Pound Note be
Sterling other than those printed for circulation in the UK? How many types
of Pound Notes does the UK have that can be termed legal tender within the
UK?
N.B. In this instance sterling is understood to mean British currency.
Jim Watt
> I ask you. How can a Gibraltar Pound Note be Sterling?
Its a good question, but for the moment my answer would
be, thats what it says it is and I for one never argue
with cash.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:00:49 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
>> I ask you. How can a Gibraltar Pound Note be Sterling?
>
> Its a good question, but for the moment my answer would
> be, thats what it says it is and I for one never argue
> with cash.
Penuria, Penuria!
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
Well, political correctness dictates that one should not have history
lessons at school which make the days of empire sound at all good, and these
are always avoided. Remember The Sun has one of the highest circulations of
papers in the UK.
Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian
beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on
the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese
TV.
And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of all things foreign!
Only in Britain can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.
Only in Britain do supermarkets make sick people walk all the way to the
back of the shop to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy
cigarettes at the front.
Only in Britain do people order double cheeseburgers, large fries and a DIET
coke.
Only in Britain do banks leave both doors open and chain the pens to the
counters.
Only in Britain do we leave cars worth thousands of pounds on the drive and
lock our junk and cheap lawn mower in the garage.
Only in Britain do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have
call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we didn't want to talk to
in the first place?
Only in Britain are there disabled parking places in front of a skating
rink.
K
darius
Erm, just the first example I found:
"On January 1st., 2001, El Salvador started a monetary integration
process since the Monetary Integration Act (LIM) became effective on
this date, approved by the Legislative Assembly on November 30th.,
2000.
This Law established a fixed exchange rate between the Colon and the
US Dollar, as of ¢8.75 Colones per US$1.00, and granted legal tender
to the US Dollar, allowing its use as a mean of payment for
liabilities, within the national territory of El Salvador."
Taken from:
http://www.bcr.gob.sv/ingles/acerca/resenia.html
See also:
http://www.bcr.gob.sv/Ebcr003.htm
Coutless places have done this with both GBP and USD, generally though
the GBP adoption was longer ago and has diminished as places have
sucessfully adopted their own currency, the USD adoption still goes on,
largely as teritories encounter major economic problems.
The govenment of any country is free to chose what is legal tender in
that country, including that which is the offical
issued/backed/authorised legal tender of other countries.
Lynx
>
snip
>
> Well, political correctness dictates that one should not have history
> lessons at school which make the days of empire sound at all good, and
> these are always avoided. Remember The Sun has one of the highest
> circulations of papers in the UK.
Ah, The Sun, same thing here. Coupled with weekend sports and the whole
nation goes into a stupor.
> Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a
> Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish
> kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on
> a Japanese TV.
Plaff plaff plaff!! (round of applause)
> And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of all things foreign!
Not only that, but there are those who often accuse others of being
paranoid!
> Only in Britain can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.
In us they're working on getting the ambulances to actually move!
> Only in Britain do supermarkets make sick people walk all the way to the
> back of the shop to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy
> cigarettes at the front.
>
> Only in Britain do people order double cheeseburgers, large fries and a
> DIET coke.
>
> Only in Britain do banks leave both doors open and chain the pens to the
> counters.
>
> Only in Britain do we leave cars worth thousands of pounds on the drive
> and lock our junk and cheap lawn mower in the garage.
>
> Only in Britain do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have
> call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we didn't want to talk
> to in the first place?
>
> Only in Britain are there disabled parking places in front of a skating
> rink.
HA HA HA!!!
I'm rolling with laughter!! Too much!!
Lynx
"darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165805060.0...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Excellent feedback. My assertions being off the mark. An acquaintance from
Philippines tells me that USD is the only way of doing business there.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:38:44 -0000, "JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>>news:evkln2p92lhve73vd...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:44:29 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Right again. So Jim's not all with it then.... :))
>>>
>>> show me a valid note or a bank account in GIP ...
>>
>>Look in your wallet
>
> I have and there are no bits of paper saying
> 'Gibraltar Pound' plenty of pictures of casemates
> and spitfires, and they all say 'Pounds sterling'
> not a GIP in sight.
>
Gibraltar's currency is the Gibraltar pound. The sterling pound is also
accepted in Gibraltar on a one to one basis with the Gibraltar pound. There
are no exchange controls in Gibraltar.
http://www.gibraltar.gi/finance/?language=en&category=1&item=17
When you click on this link read what the title of the website says as well.