BOTC?
PaulusAr
identity cards brings up new questions:
1. Why does the British government maintain this class of citizenship
which only applies to a very few people who live in the very few
remaining territories who have not opted for for UK citizenship?
2. Why do some Gibraltarians opt for BOTC status when they could have
full UK status?
3. Why is the Spanish government encouraging Gibraltarians to opt for
the UK status? Is this so that Gibraltarians will be UK citizens living
on soil that is not part of the United Kingdom and hence undermine our
right to our land?
Paulus
Jim Watt
PaulusAr
abode in the UK.
Ken
"PaulusAr" <paul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1169049016.2...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> The recent clampdown of the Spanish on Gibraltarians carrying BOTC
> identity cards brings up new questions:
>
> 1. Why does the British government maintain this class of citizenship
> which only applies to a very few people who live in the very few
> remaining territories who have not opted for for UK citizenship?
Paranoia. The UK is afraid that they will be overrun by loads of people
seeking to settle in the UK. That this is already happening from loads more
people from the EU doesn't seem to bother them though.
They were frightful of letting HK in, and let in loads from there. They were
frightful of lettng in Gib, and no-one much took advantage of the situation.
> 2. Why do some Gibraltarians opt for BOTC status when they could have
> full UK status?
No idea.
> 3. Why is the Spanish government encouraging Gibraltarians to opt for
> the UK status? Is this so that Gibraltarians will be UK citizens living
> on soil that is not part of the United Kingdom and hence undermine our
> right to our land?
Yes, exactly. The entire Sp case rests on Gibraltarians not being a people
separate from the people in the UK, or a people at all - they still refer to
us as an implanted population. If we are not a people, there is no people
who are colonised, it is just the land, and there being no colonised people
thee are no such people who accrue rights of the colonised. Gib (the land)
can then be decolonised without reference to the population, who are likened
to UK expats living in Marbella.
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eolrn...@news2.newsguy.com...
>
> "PaulusAr" <paul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1169049016.2...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> The recent clampdown of the Spanish on Gibraltarians carrying BOTC
>> identity cards brings up new questions:
>>
>> 1. Why does the British government maintain this class of citizenship
>> which only applies to a very few people who live in the very few
>> remaining territories who have not opted for for UK citizenship?
>
> Paranoia. The UK is afraid that they will be overrun by loads of people
> seeking to settle in the UK. That this is already happening from loads
> more people from the EU doesn't seem to bother them though.
>
> They were frightful of letting HK in, and let in loads from there.
>They were frightful of lettng in Gib, >
No, only 30,000 not potentially the many Millions of economic refugees from
HK
Gib's in EU anyway.
Lynx
Well, if ever.... I could not have put it better myself.
Lynx
Ken
"JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net> wrote in message
news:L7WdnT-fgOkp6DPY...@pipex.net...
Except that many HKrs felt Chinese, were ethnically Chinese etc. This
contrasts to Gib who feel British, have no desire to become part of Sp and
are not ethnically Sp either. I suspect many HKrs (apart from the chatterig
classes that is) were completely unphased by the return to China, which
after all was known about as far back as 1898, when the 99 year lease was
signed!
>
> Gib's in EU anyway.
Yes, but it was only "let in" because of anomaly that was created BY the EU.
Prior to 1973 the UK could keep out anyone it wanted - including those who
are now known BOTC. Only on joining the EU did the UK lose some control of
its border, within the context of the free movt of people. It was easy to
keep out all the BOTCs - they were NOT in the EU. However the anomaly arose
that someone from Gib COULD be excluded under the UK's exclusions but NOT
under EU law, as Gib was in the EU too. A Gib person could reside in Italy
but not in the UK - the very country responsible for Gib in the EU! This
anomaly was corrected in the 1982 Nationality Act when anyone from Gib who
wanted it (within certain broad rules) could be granted British Citizenship.
This "honour" was bestowed upon the Falklands a short while later (only 1800
after all) following the Falklands War and valid criticism that went - if
they're not British Citizens why did we go to war? Only more recently has
the door been opened to ALL BTOCs.
K
Ken
"Lynx" <He...@dios.com> wrote in message
news:Uqvrh.2451$u8....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
THEREFORE the need to assert ourselves as a people, to give lie to their
position. For example, UEFA membership. We are separate from the UK and
represent ourselves, not being part of any other metropolis.
K
Lynx
>
> THEREFORE the need to assert ourselves as a people, to give lie to their
> position. For example, UEFA membership. We are separate from the UK and
> represent ourselves, not being part of any other metropolis.
I am all for Gib and for Gibraltarians representation. In the process of
which, sharks should not be handed the leadership baton.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
Does an EU person have the automatic right to reside in Gib?
JAJ
> The recent clampdown of the Spanish on Gibraltarians carrying BOTC
> identity cards brings up new questions:
>
> 1. Why does the British government maintain this class of citizenship
> which only applies to a very few people who live in the very few
> remaining territories who have not opted for for UK citizenship?
>
Mainly inertia. If the Nationality Act was being reformed today rather
than in 1981 then it is unlikely there would be a BOTC status.
As you say, since 2002 most people are both British citizens and BOTC
(even if they choose not to obtain a British citizen passport). The
only exceptions are:
- persons solely connected with the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus; and
- persons registered or naturalised as BOTC after 21 May 2002 who have
not subsequently registered as British citizens (registration would
usually be granted except in specific circumstances).
It would be possible to reform the British Nationality Act to abolish
the separate status of BOTC. The Crown Dependencies of Jersey,
Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not part of the BOTC regime and
maintain their local immigration controls within a British citizenship
context.
Some of the Territories would resist abolition of the BOTC status. It
could risk diminishing - or being perceived to diminish - their control
over "local" naturalisation. And Bermuda might be concerned about
losing the special access rights to the United States that Bermudian
BOTCs have.
So all in all, excising BOTC status from the British Nationality Act
now would involve a lot of legislative work and potential difficulties
with some of the Territories, for no real practical benefit.
> 2. Why do some Gibraltarians opt for BOTC status when they could have
> full UK status?
No obvious reason. In any case, anyone who was a Gibraltarian BOTC on
21 May 2002 is *automatically* a British citizen as well as a BOTC -
even if they only have a BOTC travel document. Same goes for anyone
born in Gibraltar after that date with a dual British citizen/BOTC
parent.
The only people in Gibraltar who are solely BOTC are those registered
or naturalised as BOTC after 21 May 2002 who have not exercise their
(usual) facility to apply for registration as a British citizen,
normally under section 4A or 5 of the British Nationality Act 1981.
>
> 3. Why is the Spanish government encouraging Gibraltarians to opt for
> the UK status? Is this so that Gibraltarians will be UK citizens living
> on soil that is not part of the United Kingdom and hence undermine our
> right to our land?
>
A BOTC connected with Gibraltar still falls within the definition of
"United Kingdom national for European Community purposes".
Jim Watt
>By "UK citizen" I naturally meant a British Citizen with the right of
>abode in the UK.
AFAIK being a 'British Citizen' means you have the right of entry
to the UK.
zii kell
Lynx
"zii kell" <huj22ml...@temporaryinbox.com> wrote in message
news:eonf8l$caf$2...@registered.motzarella.org...
Tell us more about the modus operandi in Gib as far as job allocation goes.
Ken
No. Because of size, and overpopulation. Gib is listed as the third most
densely populated territory in the world, though I think it should be No 1.
1st is The Vatican - an administrative construct, not a real community. How
many places could survive with a zero birthrate? Exactly! Not many pregnant
nuns. 2nd is Monaco, where many of the listed residents never set foot in
the place. 3rd comes Gib.
So, an EU person can live there unhindered IF they work there too. This
applies to UK-born brits. Only Giblets have right to reside there whatever.
K
Ken
"JAJ" <jaj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169079569....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> PaulusAr wrote:
> So all in all, excising BOTC status from the British Nationality Act
> now would involve a lot of legislative work and potential difficulties
> with some of the Territories, for no real practical benefit.
All the more reason for some functionary to get to it! Lots of tedious work
of no real importance, can take many years to deliver and meanwhile keeps
head down on a nice little earner.
>> 3. Why is the Spanish government encouraging Gibraltarians to opt for
>> the UK status? Is this so that Gibraltarians will be UK citizens living
>> on soil that is not part of the United Kingdom and hence undermine our
>> right to our land?
>>
>
> A BOTC connected with Gibraltar still falls within the definition of
> "United Kingdom national for European Community purposes".
Except of course they still make up the rules as they go along to suit the
whim of the sweaty Pedro at the border with a half-smoked cigarette sticking
out of the corner of his mouth. Seen the news recently about Sp rejection of
BOTC cards as valid travel documents? Have I seen too many Spag. Westerns?
K
zii kell
ID card to cross the border both ways until I was finally stopped by Gib
passport control, and was almost denied entry into Gibraltar. Luckily,
he let me through in the end because I didn't have my passport! I was
generally surprised to learn that I couldn't, because I had always
presumed that I could but has always used my passport in the past.
When I was resident in Belgium, I used the Belgian residency ID card to
enter Britain. It never worked entered Belgium and the Belgian officers
demanded my passport.
I'm sure a red bus pass would sometimes work just as well.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
But you want unhindered access to the EU!!
Jim Watt
wrote:
>>> Does an EU person have the automatic right to reside in Gib?
>>
>> No.
>
>But you want unhindered access to the EU!!
A Frenchman has exactly the same right of residence in
Gibraltar as in the United Kingdom.
Jim Watt
<huj22ml...@temporaryinbox.com> wrote:
>
>Off topic, but from last Friday afternoon I used my Gib residence blue
>ID card to cross the border both ways until I was finally stopped by Gib
>passport control
quite right of them, its only the pink ID cards that are valid as
travel documents.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:rogvq293nlk82mli7...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:29:09 -0000, "JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net>
> wrote:
>
>>>> Does an EU person have the automatic right to reside in Gib?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>>But you want unhindered access to the EU!!
>
> A Frenchman has exactly the same right of residence in
> Gibraltar as in the United Kingdom.
Incorrect
Jim Watt
wrote:
>
>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>news:rogvq293nlk82mli7...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:29:09 -0000, "JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Does an EU person have the automatic right to reside in Gib?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>
>>>But you want unhindered access to the EU!!
>>
>> A Frenchman has exactly the same right of residence in
>> Gibraltar as in the United Kingdom.
>
>Incorrect
So you claim, but you make it up as you go along.
You really are a bitter little shit.
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
Not 'making it up' just fact.