Precise arrangements
Ken
should be under the terms of the new airport deal.
http://www.panorama.gi/localnews/headlines.php?action=view_article&article=1481&offset=0
However there are EIGHT circumstances that I can think of, whereas Panorama
spells out only two. They try to give four scenarios by stating that in the
event of a journey in the other direction, the same happens in reverse.
Anyone who has ever travelled will know that the processes of departure and
arrival are NOT the same! For example, no customs on the way out. You cannot
then say the processes are reversible!
So, the eight scenarios I can foresee are;
1. FROM Gib TO Spain, a passenger entering the terminal from the Gibraltar
entrance
2. FROM Gib TO Spain, a passenger entering the terminal from the La Linea
entrance
3. FROM Spain TO Gib, a passenger leaving the terminal by the Gibraltar
entrance
4. FROM Spain TO Gib, a passenger leaving the terminal by the La Linea
entrance
and then
5. FROM Gib TO Denmark, a passenger entering the terminal from the Gibraltar
entrance
6. FROM Gib TO Denmark, a passenger entering the terminal from the La Linea
entrance
7. FROM Denmark TO Gib, a passenger leaving the terminal by the Gibraltar
entrance
8. FROM Denmark TO Gib, a passenger leaving the terminal by the La Linea
entrance
I pick on Denmark for no particular reason.
Can someone fill me in as to what precisely is to happen on each of these?
Ken
Daniel
"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:efn0b...@news1.newsguy.com...
Hi, Ken,
When crossing borders between European countries, you have to take the
Schengen Agreement into account. As far as I know, there are no border
controls (passport controls or custom controls) when crossing borders
between two Schengen countries.
More info at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
As both Spain and Denmark are part of Schengen, I think the examples you
show are somehow duplicated because the same would apply in both situations.
As far as the new agreement has been explained over here in Spain, any
passanger leaving or arriving through the La Línea entrance would NOT be
crossing the Gibraltar customs border.
If some one is flying from Spain, Denmark or Germany (or any Schengen) into
Gibraltar and goes to Spain directly through La Línea entrance, they would
always be within the Schengen area and no customs or passport controls would
be required.
Anyone travelling to or from a non-Schengen country (for instance the USA)
would have to go through customs and passport control on arriving or on
departure.
People flying in from a Schengen country into the Gibraltar entrance would
be leaving the Schengen area and would therefore have to go through passport
and customs control, I think.
What's the situation between Gibraltar and UK? Are there passport and
customs controls?
Daniel
Jim Watt
>What's the situation between Gibraltar and UK? Are there passport and
>customs controls?
Yes on both sides.
--
Jim Watt
http://www.gibnet.com
Ken
"Daniel" <dan...@daniel.com> wrote in message
news:efoaa8$a1b$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
Yes, I see your point but no, because the arrangements thatare spoken of are
specific to Spain so that a flight going Gib-Barcelona has special
arrangments applied so that IT APPEARS AS IF the flight was an internal
flight within Spain. Clearance to enter Spain (and Spain only, no other
Schengen country) is given prior to take-off from Gib.
Hence my question is still valid!
>
> As far as the new agreement has been explained over here in Spain, any
> passanger leaving or arriving through the La Línea entrance would NOT be
> crossing the Gibraltar customs border.
>
> If some one is flying from Spain, Denmark or Germany (or any Schengen)
> into Gibraltar and goes to Spain directly through La Línea entrance, they
> would always be within the Schengen area and no customs or passport
> controls would be required.
Except that such a direction might not be possible, as the exit directly nto
Spain may only be open to those who had flown to Gib from an airport within
Spain.
>
> Anyone travelling to or from a non-Schengen country (for instance the USA)
> would have to go through customs and passport control on arriving or on
> departure.
>
> People flying in from a Schengen country into the Gibraltar entrance would
> be leaving the Schengen area and would therefore have to go through
> passport and customs control, I think.
>
> What's the situation between Gibraltar and UK? Are there passport and
> customs controls?
At both ends, both controls, yes.
Ken
Daniel
>> show are somehow duplicated because the same would apply in both
>> situations.
>
> Yes, I see your point but no, because the arrangements thatare spoken of
> are specific to Spain so that a flight going Gib-Barcelona has special
> arrangments applied so that IT APPEARS AS IF the flight was an internal
> flight within Spain. Clearance to enter Spain (and Spain only, no other
> Schengen country) is given prior to take-off from Gib.
>
> Hence my question is still valid!
>
>
>
>>
>> As far as the new agreement has been explained over here in Spain, any
>> passanger leaving or arriving through the La Línea entrance would NOT be
>> crossing the Gibraltar customs border.
>>
>> If some one is flying from Spain, Denmark or Germany (or any Schengen)
>> into Gibraltar and goes to Spain directly through La Línea entrance, they
>> would always be within the Schengen area and no customs or passport
>> controls would be required.
>
> Except that such a direction might not be possible, as the exit directly
> nto Spain may only be open to those who had flown to Gib from an airport
> within Spain.
>
Aaah! I see! Silly me, I should have red the link before commenting! :-)
So basically, someone flying from Paris into Gibraltar with the final goal
to reach Spain would still have to go through two controls: one on arrival
to Gibraltar and another one on leaving Gibraltar as if they came from
London.... Ah well, you can't have everything....
Daniel
Ken
The arrangements are the same for everyone wherever they fly to / from
UNLESS the flight starts / finishes in Spain. Someone coming to Gib airport
from London, Paris or Estonia goes through Gib customs and passport control.
IF they stay in Gib, that's it. If they intend to go on to Spain, they then
go on through Sp customs and passports.
The ONLY TIME things vary is when flying to / from a Sp airport.
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
Ken
"JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net> wrote in message
news:XJydnb-E8tO...@pipex.net...
Obviously they do - the canaries! As well as Ceuta and Melilla on the N
African coast
Ken
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
geographical location this may well happen, what happens if then go to Spain
from Gib, will they go through Spanish customs I wonder?
Ken
Well here is a great anomaly of course. Spain complains about Gib being a
VAT-free zone and so must impose strict controls at the border. Except of
course the Canaries, Ceuta and Melilla are also VAT free yet I am not aware
that travellers between these and the mainland pass through any goods checks
on their way. Similarly while Spain insists on the necessity of checks at
the Gib-Spain land border, she is proposing that there should be none when
these meet by air!
Now while the price of (for example) whisky and cigarettes are lower in the
Canaries than in Malaga, the price is not so disparate that it makes it
worthwhile for anyone to travel between these destinations JUST for the
savings to be made on these goods. However with the trend for ever less
expensive flights and these goods being much cheaper in Gib than in Spain,
and in the absence of checks, it may well be worthwhile someone flying JUST
for the savings to be made on these!
I've just measured. A carton of 200 cigs measures 28x5x9cm, and in a medium
sized suitcase I reckon you could fit 60 cartons, which would weigh 18kg -
within your typical luggage allowance. At Gib prices, 60 cartons would set
you back £450. At UK prices that would come to £2700, a difference of
£2250. I have no idea what Sp prices are, but they must be sufficiently
higher than Gib prices. ven if not, at that price difference it would be
financially worthwhile- though thoroughly illegal and therefore I could not
possibly suggest nor condone it - that someone should fly Gib-Barcelona-UK
and return on a regular basis, say one return trip per day (using the
customs-free Gib-Barcelona part to get the goods into the VAT zone) AND make
a tidy living out of it.
Did this not occur to anyone at Cordoba, or were the Sp so blinded by the
arrangements at the airport that it completely blinded them to anything
else?
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
'plan'? I though the customs free bit was if a plane came in from Madrid
and then onto the 'Spanish side' of the airport.
Ken
You'd think so, but not from what I understand of the arrangements. You see
all security and all baggage checks and all controls are on the Gib side,
done by Gib officials where the exportation of cigarettes in this quantity
is not an offence. The Sp officials over the line at the airport are not in
Gib, and cannot stop you boarding the 'plane nor do they check your luggage.
They merely wave you on as OK to enter Spain - you get clearnace to enter
Spain BEFORE you depart Gib, so there is no need for any checks at your
destination IN ORDER THAT when you get to Barcelona / Madrid you are treated
AS IF you had arrived on an internal flight within Spain, and no checks are
carried out.
Or so I'm led to believe. If I am mistaken - and I am more than happy to be
mistaken on this - it is because either I have misinterpreted what I have
read or I have been misled in arriving at my understanding. PLEASE - THIS
WAS IN FACT THE OPENING GAMBIT OF THIS THREAD
WWHHAATT AARREE TTHHEE PPRREECCIISSEE AARRAANNGGEEMMEENNTTSS FFOORR AALLLL
TTHHEE PPEERRMMUUTTAATTIIOONNSS AANNDD CCOOMMBBIINNAATTIIOONNSS
PPEERRTTAAIINNIINNGG TTOO EEAACCHHPPOOSSSSIIBBLLEE AARRRRIIVVAALL AANNDD
DDEEPPAARRTTUURREE PPOIINNTT??
I couldn't ask any louder!
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
> see all security and all baggage checks and all controls are on the Gib
> side, done by Gib officials where the exportation of cigarettes in this
> quantity is not an offence.
According to Jim Watt the mere possesion of that quantity of Cigs will land
you in the slammer.
Jim Watt
wrote:
The possession of 2000 cigarettes is illegal in
Gibraltar without a licence.
Daniel
Hi, Ken,
I suspect that they will arrange the entrances so that anyone flying from
Barcelona into Gibraltar (Spanish gate) will not have a chance to make any
shopping. They will have a corridor going straight from the plane's gate to
La Línea gate. If they go the Gibraltar exit, then they would have to go
through Spanish customs when they enter Gibraltar.
Daniel
Daniel
>> 'plan'? I though the customs free bit was if a plane came in from Madrid
>> and then onto the 'Spanish side' of the airport.
>
> You'd think so, but not from what I understand of the arrangements. You
> see all security and all baggage checks and all controls are on the Gib
> side, done by Gib officials where the exportation of cigarettes in this
> quantity is not an offence. The Sp officials over the line at the airport
> are not in Gib, and cannot stop you boarding the 'plane nor do they check
> your luggage. They merely wave you on as OK to enter Spain - you get
> clearnace to enter Spain BEFORE you depart Gib, so there is no need for
> any checks at your destination IN ORDER THAT when you get to Barcelona /
> Madrid you are treated AS IF you had arrived on an internal flight within
> Spain, and no checks are carried out.
>
> Or so I'm led to believe. If I am mistaken - and I am more than happy to
> be mistaken on this - it is because either I have misinterpreted what I
> have read or I have been misled in arriving at my understanding. PLEASE -
> THIS WAS IN FACT THE OPENING GAMBIT OF THIS THREAD
If you board get into the plance from La Línea, I guess that people will
have a direct corridor (with a security check in the middle) until the plane
with no chance of shopping on the Gibraltar side.
Daniel
Jim GM4DHJ
> La Línea gate. If they go the Gibraltar exit, then they would have to go
> through Spanish customs when they enter Gibraltar.
>
> Daniel
>
Lynx
>
> I suspect that they will arrange the entrances so that anyone flying from
> Barcelona into Gibraltar (Spanish gate) will not have a chance to make any
> shopping. They will have a corridor going straight from the plane's gate
> to La Línea gate. If they go the Gibraltar exit, then they would have to
> go through Spanish customs when they enter Gibraltar.
>
> Daniel
So....flights coming in from Barcelona will approach the runway from an
Easterly direction, hmmm?..........Catalan Bay and all that.......
M
Ken
I suppose all manner of routes and arrangements are possible as you suggest.
The teminal building will more resemble a labyrinth at this rate, what with
all the conditions and exclusions being transformed with one-way corrdors,
passenger flows that do not mix etc! Still, nothing stopping anyone from
buying their goods in town, packing their suitcases at home and presenting
them for check-in already loaded with the goodies that are so avidly stopped
at the land border!
Ken
Daniel
Yes, I'll guess they have to arrange the terminal some way and organise the
flows as you say.
I guess that, if you are in town and want to fly to Barcelona, you'll have
to leave Gibraltar through the land border (and go through Spanish customs)
and then enter the airport through the La Línea entrance. If not, they'll
have to place some customs controls in the airport for those going from
Gibraltar town to a Spanish flight.
Yeah, complicated arrangements but still better than no arrangements, I
would think...
Daniel
Ken
Well I hope those organising the terminal building's internal walls will
have the foresight to make the partitions temporary. When (if) Gib joins
Schengen there will be no need for any of these schengenanigans (!) with
pre-boarding clearance to enter Spain, as all flights within schengen are
treated as internal flights anywhere. The need for differing routes for
passengers starting or finishing in different places will be eliminated, and
it would be a pity to seea terminal building completed in 2009 having major
restructuring in 2010! Or perhaps by 2009 Gib will have joined Schengen and
this aspect of the airport agreements will never be implemented as they will
by then be irrelevant.
Ken
Daniel
>> Yeah, complicated arrangements but still better than no arrangements, I
>> would think...
>
> Well I hope those organising the terminal building's internal walls will
> have the foresight to make the partitions temporary. When (if) Gib joins
> Schengen there will be no need for any of these schengenanigans (!) with
> pre-boarding clearance to enter Spain, as all flights within schengen are
> treated as internal flights anywhere. The need for differing routes for
> passengers starting or finishing in different places will be eliminated,
> and it would be a pity to seea terminal building completed in 2009 having
> major restructuring in 2010! Or perhaps by 2009 Gib will have joined
> Schengen and this aspect of the airport agreements will never be
> implemented as they will by then be irrelevant.
>
> Ken
Is there any possibility that Gibraltar joins Schengen? It does not look
like the UK is willing to join Schengen.
Daniel
Ken
But that does not mean Gib might not join, if it could. I have no idea. Can
Gib join separately from the UK joining? DOES Gib want to join at all? Does
Gib want to join if the UK does or does not? I have no idea. What are the
advantages, disadvantages, and implications of joining or not joining? All I
know is it's a free travel area, that's all.
Ken
Jim Watt
wrote:
>But that does not mean Gib might not join, if it could. I have no idea. Can
>Gib join separately from the UK joining? DOES Gib want to join at all? Does
>Gib want to join if the UK does or does not? I have no idea. What are the
>advantages, disadvantages, and implications of joining or not joining? All I
>know is it's a free travel area, that's all.
it implies a shared computer database. Strangely enough
there has been some support in Spain for Gibraltar to
join but given the political implications I suspect come
to it they would block it.
UEFA !