Re: Has Gibraltar Killed any of its Barbary macaques yet?
Cybernest
> "X-No-Archive:"
> I read that Gibraltar was going to kill up 25 of its Barbary
> macaques. Has it done it or bottled it? Do Gibraltarians agree with
> the killings?
I understand that some have already been killed unfortunately. We
have asked for further information on the current situation but
alas... the silence is ominous.
As to whether the Gibraltarians agree with this cull, most indications
are that a significant majority DO NOT agree. Have a look at these:
Gibraltar News Online Forum Topic and Poll: <a href="http://
www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1798"
target="_blank">Are you in favour of culling our Barbary Macaques?</a>
Gibfocus Poll: <a href="http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/forums/
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1798" target="_blank">Are you in favour of culling
our Barbary Macaques?</a>
Panorama Forum: <a href="http://www.xsorbit3.com/users/discuss/
index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1208415339"
target="_blank">Monkey Business</a>
There's also a online petition with over 1100 signatures todate: <a
href="http://www.gopetition.com/online/18489.html"
target="_blank">Online Petition > Stop the culling of Macaques in
Gibraltar</a>
If you are a Facebook member you can also see/join the group: <a
href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24875203080"
target="_blank">NO to Ape Culling</a>
In short, most people are unhappy with the way our Barbary Macaques
have been managed, and are urging the Government to seek viable
alternatives to culling. It's probably also fair to say no one wants
to kill the apes but some feel it is inevitable but only as a very
last resort, if no alternatives are found. Some of us believe
alternatives are there but most of all... that the authorities should
manage the husbandry of our apes more efficiently and effectively.
I hope that partially answers your question.
Saludos
Cybernest
Ooops... my apologies for posting the links in html format. I just
copied them from a document elsewhere and forgot this group does not
use that format.
> Gibfocus Poll:
Also the link for Gibfocus is incorrect. It should be http://www.gibfocus.gi
You'll find the Poll down the right hand sidebar.
Saludos!
Jim Watt
wrote:
>"X-No-Archive:"
>I read that Gibraltar was going to kill up 25 of its Barbary
>macaques. Has it done it or bottled it? Do Gibraltarians agree with
>the killings?
The monkeys have always been culled, its just that this time
some people abroad have expressed an opinion about it being
'frightful' without proposing any solution or knowing the
first thing about it.
wheras 70 was a stable number, carefully maintained by the
military the numbers have got into several hundred and
culling is the only solution as nobody wants to take them
and give them a suitable home. When they move to the
town area because of overcrowding up the rock, their natural
habitat, they become a serious nuisance and a threat to
people.
Locally people have mixed views, although the majority realise
something needs to be done. Online polls are not representative
of their, or anyone's views.
--
Jim Watt
http://www.gibnet.com
Cybernest
> Locally people have mixed views, although the majority realise
> something needs to be done. Online polls are not representative
> of their, or anyone's views.
Ha ha! Oh really? So... someone answering a question posed to them
on an online poll, clicking yes or no... in your opinion is NOT
representative of their view? Hmmm... very odd! Well, I guess that's
your view... but should one ignore it... as it's probably not
representative of anything?
Most people would disagree with you Jim... might even suggest your
comment is daft! But don't worry... my comment may not be
representative of anything either! lol
Ken
"Cybernest" <cybe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:32d04c6c-3364-4c97...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
===========================================
The poll result is the opinion of those who voted. However it is the case
that those who voted are not necessarily representative of society. Fora
start, it leaves out the computer illiterate group.
Ken
Cybernest
> The poll result is the opinion of those who voted. However it is the case
> that those who voted are not necessarily representative of society. Fora
> start, it leaves out the computer illiterate group.
Absolutely accepted Ken. One could expand this theme of course... but
in fairness to the questioner, I won't.dwell on it further. The only
reason I replied earlier is because the previous comment was a little
errr... well not very sensible... unlike yours, which is! :)
Saludos!wringe
Ken
========================================
Tony Willis and Jim have a long history as sparring partners, and
occasionally they get a bit carried away. Some moderation is called for at
times. Not a "moderator" mind you, just moderaTION. :))
Ken
Jim Watt
wrote:
>Tony Willis and Jim have a long history as sparring partners, and
>occasionally they get a bit carried away. Some moderation is called for at
>times. Not a "moderator" mind you, just moderaTION. :))
Yes Ken we have a history of having a go at each other
BUT
He asked a reasonable question and I gave a reasonable answer
Cybernest is being defensive because he has an online poll
which supports his personal view.
My professional opinion, which I suspect Antony might actually
support for a change is that online polls are an unreliable
method of gathering data.
1. Because they can be fixed
2. The people voting are not representative of the general public
3. The questions are not neutral and invite a particular reply.
Culling monkeys is an emotional issue, because they are 'cute
furry animals, just like children' - Rats are also cute furry
animals but have tails and seem less cuddly, although they make
better pets than monkeys.
But many people signing petitions and voting in polls have
never seen a Gibraltar monkey up close and certainly has not
talked to the elderly and mothers in the upper town who are
being terrorised by them.
Nor is culling anything new, it was recorded in 1888 and has
continued ever since. The monkeys have no natual predators and
currently their numbers increase at 30 a year. Given that an
ape lives 20 years, its easy to construct a mathematical model
of the population and see why there is a problem.
So what is the solution? Morocco refuses to take any as does
everyone else and GOHNS will not hand them over for medical
research purposes, which is fair enough, and in any event
animals for drug testing are generaly bred for that purpose.
None of the people shouting 'don't cull the monkeys' have any
practical alternative to offer.
At least online petitions, polls and rants do not consume
trees.
Perhaps cybernest could run an online poll on whether people
think online polls are an accurate reflection of public opinion.
Cybernest
I'm all for moderation Ken... as for sparring partners, I'm not going
to bother getting into this silly debate Jim wants to have about
polls. All I said was:
> As to whether the Gibraltarians agree with this cull, most indications
> are that a significant majority DO NOT agree...
I then offered various links to Online polls so as to offer the
questioner a chance to judge for himself what views Gibraltarians have
expressed, for or against the culling. I also gave my view. I think
I'd sooner let it rest there and not take Tony Willis' question into a
silly debate about online polls, purely on Jim's whim.
As for Moderators here Ken... God forbid! :@:@
Saludos!
antony...@talk21.com
> "Cybernest" <cybern...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Well me & Jim do have differences of opinion, I think the some actions
of the Spanish Governments over the years towards Gibraltar are wholly
unacceptable. Jim uses the language of an old Tory, more Stephen
Milligan than David Cameron. What did you say about the Spanish Jim?
Please repeat.
Anyway back to the killings, and shock horror, it seems that Jim maybe
right, the killings have not only begun but have been happening for
some time. My original question should have been have the MASS
killings started yet? This is a whole new ball game. Jim has a point
about cuddly furry animals when it comes to exterminating what some on
the rock class as the vermin that is the Barbary macaque, however IMHO
Barbary macaques are a little bit too intelligent, too human and
possibly too much of a 'Postcard Image' for Gibraltar to kill. That's
my opinion and I'm not volunteering to take any of the buggers in! It
would, however, be interesting to hear what the answer to the
'problem' is from others!
Jim Watt
wrote:
<snip>
>It would, however, be interesting to hear what the answer
>to the 'problem' is from others!
See, we can sort of agree. As for solutions, the sound
of silence may prove deafening, because although all these
'experts' and 'do-gooders' say we have to live with the
problem, they have no solutions and they certainly don't
want monkeys on their doorstep either.
Jim Watt
<cybe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As to whether the Gibraltarians agree with this cull, most indications
>> are that a significant majority DO NOT agree...
>
>I then offered various links to Online polls so as to offer the
>questioner a chance to judge for himself what views Gibraltarians have
>expressed, for or against the culling.
Difference is I talk to people in the streets and offices
which is a more reliable method than online polls. As well
as being an emotional issue its also become a political
one where those who dislike the Government are using it as
another excuse to beat them up, which is why Vox is suddenly
so full of it, and the GSLP who one moment were shouting that
something had to be done about the monkey menace are now
playing the other side.
Ken
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:4epj345eqagt20c6k...@4ax.com...
It is of course a different matter shouting in protest against a cull when
you live in (for example) New York, and feeling the same way when on more
than one occasion on arriving home, you find an aggresive male macaque with
4-inch long canines (and not reluctant to use them) won't let you in.
Ken
Ken
<antony...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:3de6cdff-bde3-4ad9...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 25, 12:19 am, "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Cybernest" <cybern...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:36631b3f-891b-42a9...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 24, 7:13 pm, "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>
>> Tony Willis and Jim have a long history as sparring partners, and
>> occasionally they get a bit carried away. Some moderation is called for
>> at
>> times. Not a "moderator" mind you, just moderaTION. :))
>>
>> Ken
>
> Well me & Jim do have differences of opinion, I think the some actions
> of the Spanish Governments over the years towards Gibraltar are wholly
> unacceptable. Jim uses the language of an old Tory, more Stephen
> Milligan than David Cameron. What did you say about the Spanish Jim?
> Please repeat.
>
> Anyway back to the killings, and shock horror, it seems that Jim maybe
> right, the killings have not only begun but have been happening for
> some time. My original question should have been have the MASS
> killings started yet? This is a whole new ball game.
There have never been any mass killings, AFAIK. There have on occasions been
controlled culls. When I say "on occasions" I mean what Jim says - every now
and then it is necessary to deplete the population to that which is
naturally sustainable. If you were to go to the Atlas range in Algeria and
Morocco you'd find this same species in a far less dense population. The
diference there is that they are wild in every sense - no vet care, no
interventions of any sort - and esp not any people feeding them! On the
contrary many are seen as vermin as they prey on the same wild fruits that
people there seek, as well as raiding crops. In a place the size of Gib the
natural size of a wild population of these macaques would be around 60-80
animals.
> Jim has a point
> about cuddly furry animals when it comes to exterminating what some on
> the rock class as the vermin that is the Barbary macaque, however IMHO
> Barbary macaques are a little bit too intelligent, too human and
> possibly too much of a 'Postcard Image' for Gibraltar to kill. That's
> my opinion and I'm not volunteering to take any of the buggers in! It
> would, however, be interesting to hear what the answer to the
> 'problem' is from others!
Others have suggested exporting them to zoos. Problem is no zoo wants any
more. Many have been exported over the years, but unlike other species it's
an effort to get these little b*****s NOT to breed! Many zoos have far many
more of them than they know what to do with, and they can't offload them to
other zoos that have the same problem. Zoos without any are reluctant to
take them on for these reasons. It has also been suggested that the
population growth be controlled with contraceptive pellets. AFAIK, no-one
knows whether the sterility conferred by this method is reversible on
ceasing to administer the contraceptive, or what effect a hormonal change in
an individual will have on its dominance position within the pack, and how
this change will affect the whole pack. That is why, for all the "shock
horror" of it all, the best conservarion method involves a controlled cull.
One problem is that many who would label themselves as "conservationist" are
in fact "preservationist" and they themselves don't know the difference.
Ken
Cybernest
> On Sun, 25 May 2008 04:28:54 -0700 (PDT), Cybernest
>
> >> As to whether the Gibraltarians agree with this cull, most indications
> >> are that a significant majority DO NOT agree...
>
> >I then offered various links to Online polls so as to offer the
> >questioner a chance to judge for himself what views Gibraltarians have
> >expressed, for or against the culling.
>
> Difference is I talk to people in the streets and offices
> which is a more reliable method than online polls. As well
> as being an emotional issue its also become a political
> one where those who dislike the Government are using it as
> another excuse to beat them up, which is why Vox is suddenly
> so full of it, and the GSLP who one moment were shouting that
> something had to be done about the monkey menace are now
> playing the other side.
Whilst I would not deny that some may be using this issue as a
political football, it is only the usual suspects (as Jim mentions
above). As for this thread here, the only one politicising the issue
is you Jim.
Personally, I have no political axe to grind and nor do the many
posters who have chosen freely to express their views in my forum
topic (http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?
f=2&t=1798) and in other online media that I linked to in my earlier
post, such as the Facebook Group and over 1100 in the Online Petition.
These people Jim, also work in offices and probably walk the streets
of Gibraltar, (though I suspect not to the same extent that you do).
The views expressed by these people, are apolitical and simply show
the strong feelings and concerns many have about the issue of culling.
JIm, in your usual pontificating tone, rather than calling these so
called 'do gooders' names, and denigrating their justifiable concerns,
as you do (nothing much new there), I think most sensible people will
respect the fact that Gibraltarians are showing we care about our very
own world famous 'furry creatures', who have shared our homeland and
heritage for many years, centuries even. The views expressed are from
ordinary people who are showing a heartfelt concern over the killing
of a group of animals that are largely held in great affection by the
vast majority of people of Gibraltar.
Your dismissive comments of them Jim, are frankly offensive... but
unfortunately it's what one has grown to expect from you, wherever you
post.
On May 25, 11:28 pm, Jim Watt <jimw...@aol.no_way> wrote:
> See, we can sort of agree. As for solutions, the sound
> of silence may prove deafening, because although all these
> 'experts' and 'do-gooders' say we have to live with the
> problem, they have no solutions and they certainly don't
> want monkeys on their doorstep either.
In my opinion, and from what I can gather from many sources, online
and in the streets over many years, most people accept that there is a
genuine problem. A problem that has not been caused by Jim's so
called 'do gooders' I may add. It's a problem that has been brought
about by long term mismanagement... and that is by successive
Governments and those who these governments have appointed, and who
have not been properly resourced or trained to look after our apes!
> On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:48:26 -0700 (PDT), antony.wil...@talk21.com
> wrote:
>
> >It would, however, be interesting to hear what the answer
> >to the 'problem' is from others!
There has been much discussion and many have tried to offer
solutions. Most are covered in various articles which you can find in
our Gibraltar News Online Archive for 'Wildlife and Nature' Category
here:
http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/category/society-and-culture/wildlife-and-nature/
There is no denying that viable solutions are hard to come by and the
most effective ones need time for them to have an effect. That is the
basic problem as the Government and managers of the apes have run out
of time and have now, under pressure, been forced to come up with a
solution of last resort, culling! Of course, as we all know and is
blatantly obvious to any observer, this is a highly unpopular move...
but unfortunately probably the only short term solution.
There was a hope a couple of weeks ago, that even at the eleventh
hour, a solution might still be found, in Morocco. Some sources
believe that, even though the possibility of sendng apes to Morocco
has not been possible in the past, it might be possible now for this
group of 25. I know GONHS' John Cortes visited Morocco recently and I
was reliably informed that he was taking the opportunity to discuss
the issue with the authorities there yet again. I have asked what the
current situation is in this regard but I have had no answer. What I
would like to know from GONHS and the Government is whether this
possible solution has been completely exhausted now?
The real and deafening silence... is from GOHNS and the Government
Jim!
Saludos
Cybernest
Webmaster
http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com
Jim Watt
<cybe...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
Its nonsense to accuse me of politising the issue.
I just mentioned that it has been taken up by the
usual suspects locally as yet another excuse to kick
the Government.
What I do find offensive is so called 'experts' from
abroad telling us what we can't do in Gibraltar but
not offering any alternative.
The Government and GONHS have not been 'silent' they
have had interviews in the local media, for example
Panorama, 25/4 two page interview with Ernest Britto,
and a viewpoint debate on GBC, which was streamed on
the Internet.
In that they explained the history of management of
the monkeys, and the woman from the UK had NO IDEA
what the alternative to culling was. Its not a case
that 'viable solutions are hard to come by' there
simply are not any.
Government has written directly to anyone who has
expressed an interest, explaining the facts.
I think its you that is over reacting, firstly because
of comment on online polls, the results of which cannot
be taken seriously, and secondly because you seem to
have a strong view on the monkey problem.
Instead of complaining about the GoG providing a solution
to a genuine problem, you would be better off trying to
find a home for the unwanted animals. Write to the
King of Morocco, because his Government says no at
present. They are considered a pest in North Africa, as
they are by many here when they are not up the rock where
they belong.
Cybernest
> Its nonsense to accuse me of politising the issue.
> I just mentioned that it has been taken up by the
> usual suspects locally as yet another excuse to kick
> the Government.
Exactly... You are the only one who's brought politics up here!
> What I do find offensive is so called 'experts' from
> abroad telling us what we can't do in Gibraltar but
> not offering any alternative.
Animal rights groups... wherever they are... are perfectly entitled to
express a view Jim. What's more they have offered some suggestions
that are constructive, albeit not a solution 'on a plate', which might
resolve the present crisis unfortunately. But they have offered
suggestions which might help avoid continuing mismanagement of the
apes in the future.
> The Government and GONHS have not been 'silent' they
> have had interviews in the local media, for example
> Panorama, 25/4 two page interview with Ernest Britto,
> and a viewpoint debate on GBC, which was streamed on
> the Internet.
The silence I refer to is subsequent to that and in particular, not
responding to questions put to them in the last two weeks.
> Government has written directly to anyone who has
> expressed an interest, explaining the facts.
All Britto did in that letter was repeat the Press Releas that the
Government had already released explaining in a not very convincing
manner, why the decision to cull had been made.
> I think its you that is over reacting, firstly because
> of comment on online polls, the results of which cannot
> be taken seriously, and secondly because you seem to
> have a strong view on the monkey problem.
I don't see any reason to categorise my expressing my view and concern
about these apes as an 'over reaction'. A question was asked here and
I have offered a my view along with links where the questioner can
judge for himself how people feel on the issue. All very balanced and
hardly an 'over reaction' my friend and much unlike your sycophantic
ranting!
> Instead of complaining about the GoG providing a solution
> to a genuine problem, you would be better off trying to
> find a home for the unwanted animals. Write to the
> King of Morocco, because his Government says no at
> present. They are considered a pest in North Africa, as
> they are by many here when they are not up the rock where
> they belong.
I'm not complaining... I am criticising! In a free and open society,
we can do that and sycophants like you have to put up with it!
Like many others, I don't like the solution the Government has been
forced into. I also believe they have mismanaged the issue over many
years. Both I and everyone else who feels uncomfortable with the
culling of the apes have a perfect right to express our feelings.
As for seeking viable solutions, what makes you think we haven't
tried? My writing to the King of Morocco is a pretty futile
suggestion, as you well know. What I want to know is what response
John Cortes, who is much better placed to put these questions,
received from the Moroccan authorities, in his recent trip. I have
asked but not received a reply. I can only assume of course, that his
discussions have not proved helpful in finding a solution NOW, which
might avoid the killing of these animals. That would be regretable...
and we have also asked what the present situation is. As the
questioner asked, has the cull now taken place? If it is still in its
sad process... in short, again, people want to know what is the
present situation? This is were there is a 'deafening silence'!
Putting pressure on the Government to get them to focus on the issues
that have caused them to have to take this decision 'of last resort'
is one way to try to get them to manage the issue in a more effective
way in future, and which will avoid 'last resort' decisions from
having to be made again, in the future.
Jim, as I said earlier, in a free and democratic society, we are
fortunate that we are able to criticise decisions by Governments when
we believe they've got it wrong. You can call it what you like but
sycophants like you, however you like to try to redirect and confuse
the debate and issue at hand, will never muzzle free thinking, caring
and concerned people who endeavour to express their views, however
they choose to do so!
Saludos!
Cybernest
Webmaster
http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com
Jim Watt
<cybe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Animal rights groups... wherever they are... are perfectly entitled to
>express a view Jim.
I too have a right to express a view, which I have
'animal rights' groups in the UK are loonies, terrorists and scum
which we do not need in Gibraltar.
>What's more they have offered some suggestions
>that are constructive, albeit not a solution 'on a plate', which might
>resolve the present crisis unfortunately. But they have offered
>suggestions which might help avoid continuing mismanagement of the
>apes in the future.
They have NO solution to the current problem of overpopulation. All
they have done is critisise GOHNS who manage the monkeys, by all
accounts far too well, which is why their numbers increase.
There are no 'apes' in Gibraltar.
>The silence I refer to is subsequent to that and in particular, not
>responding to questions put to them in the last two weeks.
Nothing has changed, so what else is there to say?
>I'm not complaining... I am criticising! In a free and open society,
>we can do that and sycophants like you have to put up with it!
Yes, and you will have to put up with being told you are
talking rubbish and name calling.
>Putting pressure on the Government to get them to focus on the issues
>that have caused them to have to take this decision 'of last resort'
>is one way to try to get them to manage the issue in a more effective
>way in future, and which will avoid 'last resort' decisions from
>having to be made again, in the future.
WHAT A LOT OF WORDS THAT MEAN NOTHING.
The problem is there are too many monkeys, and that regular
culling, which used to take place, has not been undertaken.
>Jim, as I said earlier, in a free and democratic society, we are
>fortunate that we are able to criticise decisions by Governments when
>we believe they've got it wrong. You can call it what you like but
>sycophants like you, however you like to try to redirect and confuse
>the debate and issue at hand, will never muzzle free thinking, caring
>and concerned people who endeavour to express their views, however
>they choose to do so!
Am I trying to stop that? NO just pointing out that all the
'do gooders' and 'animal rights' loonies haven't got a solution
apart from telling the people of Gibraltar that they have to
put up with monkey shit on their doorstep, being viciously
bitten, and the ever present danger that someones child will
be attacked.
Its OUR problem not yours, and we have a solution.
zii kell
> On May 24, 5:21 pm, Jim Watt <jimw...@aol.no_way> wrote:
>
>> Locally people have mixed views, although the majority realise
>> something needs to be done. Online polls are not representative
>> of their, or anyone's views.
>
> Ha ha! Oh really? So... someone answering a question posed to them
> on an online poll, clicking yes or no..
Actually, I agree with Jim. Online polls are very easy to rig.
In fact, if you want, give me an online poll and I shall happily rig it
for you. I kid you not.
I am for culling the monos. Sad to say so, but since these pimates are
not being taken care of, are causing problems in the town, another home
has not been found for them, and they will only grow it become a greater
nuisance, then its off for the chop/bullet/dart/<insert humane death>.
I only dropped into this group today after a brief visit last holiday
weekend to Tangier, which is very nice and very laid back. I asked where
the monkies were and they said they had got rid of them many centuries
earlier during a stop over in Gibraltar. They had had to leave but the
monkies were left behind ; This was the main reason for the cusades :)
Candy West
wrote:
Killing them is legal, if not absurd, under local (?) laws?
Stephen
<huj22ml...@temporaryinbox.com> wrote:
> Sad to say so, but since these pimates are
>not being taken care of, are causing problems in the town
Sorry to reply so late, I haven't visited this group for a while. Sad
to hear this is happening. I have heard of squirrels and other "pests"
being given contraceptive pills, it's a shame that is not an option
here. The thread has introduced me to some other Gib forums too, which
I will look forward to reading.
Why aren't they looked after properly? A couple of people said that
when I was there so I guess there must be some truth in the
suggestion. I thought some government agency was supposed to be
responsible for them?
Jim Watt
<invalid...@reply.to.newsgroup.com> wrote:
>Why aren't they looked after properly?
They ARE looked after properly by GONHS
http://www.gonhs.org/macaques.htm
Problem is there are too many of them,
the males forget to put on condoms and
the females neglect to take their pills
Its also a convenient issue for the opposition
to beat up the Government over, as when they
fail to keep the numbers down they are accused
of not doing their job and when they do they
are inhuman.
Monkeys are wild animals, like rats and ferral
cats and their numbers expand based on the
availability of food and are constrained by
predators, as they have plenty of the former
and none of the latter they become a problem.
If the numbers were reduced by 30% there would
still be plenty for the tourists to admire.