Lagoon Estate
Lynx
designed defence structures in the vicinity of what is called today Laguna
Estate. It is also true that there was a 'lagoon' in this district. But
looking at some 1700's maps, this 'lagoon' was nowhere near as big as what
appears in 'photographs' of a much later period. So why name a district
Laguna and not Lagoon, when every single building in Gib, especially the
flats in this district bear English names. And could it be that, unbeknown
to the masses, the district was so named perpetuating the memory of the
Spanish engineer Luis Bravo de Laguna.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
news:URUkh.14892$HU....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Well, given that so few maps of this period bear any resemblance to the
proportions of the places they claim to represent, we should not be
surprised that differences arise. The notion of proportioality and bird's
eye view came in rather later, the idea of a map around 1700 was to paint a
fairly accurate and detailed picture.
A further difficulty is that, unlike what we assume regarding lands,
geography is NOT static esp where thee is water involved, esp when some pics
/ drawings may have been made at high or low, spring or neap tides - if
tidal, which it most likely was.
If the name of the Sp engineer has been perpetuated, I suggest this is
almost certainly in very few people's minds, perhaps yours alone. Even if
so, so what? I would imagine most under 50 in Gib today have little notion
of the previously wet nature of the land on which so many buildings now
stand, apparently very firmly.
K
Jim GM4DHJ
Lynx
"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:en1ep...@news2.newsguy.com...
>
> "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> news:URUkh.14892$HU....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > An interesting historical note: Ante 1704, it was a Spanish engineer who
> > designed defence structures in the vicinity of what is called today
Laguna
> > Estate. It is also true that there was a 'lagoon' in this district. But
> > looking at some 1700's maps, this 'lagoon' was nowhere near as big as
what
> > appears in 'photographs' of a much later period. So why name a district
> > Laguna and not Lagoon, when every single building in Gib, especially the
> > flats in this district bear English names. And could it be that,
unbeknown
> > to the masses, the district was so named perpetuating the memory of the
> > Spanish engineer Luis Bravo de Laguna.
>
> Well, given that so few maps of this period bear any resemblance to the
> proportions of the places they claim to represent, we should not be
> surprised that differences arise. The notion of proportioality and bird's
> eye view came in rather later, the idea of a map around 1700 was to paint
a
> fairly accurate and detailed picture.
Wrong. There were accurate maps showing the Carribean, dating prior to
Columbus' time.
Mapping Gib and its surrounding might have been relegated to primary school
mapping students.
> A further difficulty is that, unlike what we assume regarding lands,
> geography is NOT static esp where thee is water involved, esp when some
pics
> / drawings may have been made at high or low, spring or neap tides - if
> tidal, which it most likely was.
The 'Laggona Estate', as we know ot now, was a relatively small pond, when
compared to the inundated area as seen in much later photographs. Perhaps
the area's landmass had to be better employed elsewhere, serving two
purposes: A// Land to be used elsewhere were need. B// inundating the land
causing a "natural" obstacle between mainland Spain and the fortress.
> If the name of the Sp engineer has been perpetuated, I suggest this is
> almost certainly in very few people's minds, perhaps yours alone. Even if
> so, so what? I would imagine most under 50 in Gib today have little notion
> of the previously wet nature of the land on which so many buildings now
> stand, apparently very firmly.
Wrong. It is not in my mind at all. It occured to me when I read about this
Spanish Engineer and his contribution, at the time, in defensive
constructions in the vicinity to present day Laguna Estate. I don't have a
problem with this matter at all. If the Engineer's name is not relevant, at
least the area has kept it's original name. Unlike the "Piazza" which has
for century been known, and to this very day is still known and refered to
as El Martillo. The name stems from the origins of the square, where
merchandise was auctioned to prospective retailers, etc. El Martillo = The
Hammer. From the auctioneer's hammer. La Piazza, a very pretentious and
non-Gibraltarian name, is best suited to some distant square in Italy
somewhere....
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
Well, you have your opinions, I have mine, to each their own.
El Martillo is common parlance for those above 55-ish. Those below that age
know of the term, but rarely use it. My grandmothers used to refer to Calle
Cordonero, I never did. And so it goes. Things change with time. Engineer
Lane and Line Wall Road are unusual in that their old Gib name in Sp
translates to the more recent Eng name, and Parliament Lane / Callejon de
los Masones use the same otigin to arrive at distinct names for the same
place.
I suppose you'd prefer the Piazza be referred to as Auctioneer's Square, if
not actually "The Hammer" by that reasoning.
We've discussed previously the use of blue plaques around street names,
telling the visitor and reminding the native of the history behind place
names. I suspect that as there are no gun barrels involved, the Heritage
Society would not be interested in promoting this.
K
Lynx
>
> Well, you have your opinions, I have mine, to each their own.
>
> El Martillo is common parlance for those above 55-ish. Those below that
age
> know of the term, but rarely use it. My grandmothers used to refer to
Calle
> Cordonero, I never did. And so it goes. Things change with time. Engineer
> Lane and Line Wall Road are unusual in that their old Gib name in Sp
> translates to the more recent Eng name, and Parliament Lane / Callejon de
> los Masones use the same otigin to arrive at distinct names for the same
> place.
>
> I suppose you'd prefer the Piazza be referred to as Auctioneer's Square,
if
> not actually "The Hammer" by that reasoning.
>
> We've discussed previously the use of blue plaques around street names,
> telling the visitor and reminding the native of the history behind place
> names. I suspect that as there are no gun barrels involved, the Heritage
> Society would not be interested in promoting this.
El Martillo, like the name Gibraltar, has its own history and reason for
being. It is understandable that any occupying force will determine certain
geographical aspects of the new found place. Like digging the Rock literally
hollow, discarding all the excess tunnuelling rock mass out the vent-holes.
Doing away with Gibraltar's original cliffs. There was no Gibraltar
Constitution in those days. Giving the main thoroughfare two names no one in
their right mind would ever use. Gibraltar's main street is known by every
Gibraltarian as Calle Real. Calling it anything else is being a "wanabee".
Callejon de los Masones must have come a little later in the day. Some say
the first lodge in Spain to have been in some obscured apartment in Madrid,
while others claim it was in Gibraltar. At any rate, given the chronological
sequences of events, Parliament Lane is probably not such an old name. Had
it been named prior to 1704, it would probably have been called Callejon del
Cabildo. Come to think of it, Callejon de Calleja wouldn't go so astray!
Nameplaces should remain unchanged and true to the people. Why change the
main thoroughfare to anything other than Calle Real? El Martillo is a
historical name. Why renaming it with such an alien name as Piazza? No one
knew then what the word piazza meant. And neither yesteryear nor today do
Gibraltarians speak any Italian.
You never saw such a visually secured public works as the Piazza. We could
only see what was going on, by peering through cracks and holes in the
fencework. And when those fences finally came down, the public was aghast at
what little the square had to show for the public money spent on it. The
Piazza was a hotchpotch. A fiddle, in Oz parlance. In SPanish, un truco de
mano.
At any rate, the english speaking world has erased enough of Gib's history
and with it, the Gibraltarian identity, without there being any need for two
diasporan-Gibraltarians publicly arguing the pros and cons of meaningless
name adoptions. :))
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> being. It is understandable that any occupying force will determine
> certain
> geographical aspects of the new found place. Like digging the Rock
> literally
> hollow, discarding all the excess tunnuelling rock mass out the
> vent-holes.
. . . and using the reulting tunnels for the defence of Gib, made it into
the "impregnable fortress". Without such history there wouldn't be the Gib
there is now! As to discarding the rock, much of the WW2 tunnelling spoils
went to making the runway - not exactly a waste of resources, again very
significant in making the Rock what it is today.
> Doing away with Gibraltar's original cliffs. There was no Gibraltar
> Constitution in those days. Giving the main thoroughfare two names no one
> in
> their right mind would ever use. Gibraltar's main street is known by every
> Gibraltarian as Calle Real. Calling it anything else is being a "wanabee".
I call it Main St. As there is less Sp spoken in Gib, the Sp names are used
less. Yes there is plenty of Sp still spoken in Gib, but it is less than
there was. The schoolchildren of your agegroup used Sp outside of the
classroom, now schoolchildren use Eng all of the time. Things such as the
internet and sat tv make the use of Sp less relevant than it was. THIS I
believe is the REAL reason for the Cervantes institute coming to Gib, the Sp
see any influence they might have had among the populace diminishing as the
populace switches off the Sp language
> Nameplaces should remain unchanged and true to the people.
Should the namaplaces not change WITH the people if the people so determine
it?
> Why change the
> main thoroughfare to anything other than Calle Real?
It is no longer Royal Street. Sp visitors coming to Gib are calling Calle
Principal, which is a good translation of Main St after all. By doing so,
ironically, Spaniards are eroding a bit of heritage that Spain gave Gib
> El Martillo is a
> historical name. Why renaming it with such an alien name as Piazza? No one
> knew then what the word piazza meant. And neither yesteryear nor today do
> Gibraltarians speak any Italian.
Again we're on to the Genoese, who DID speak Italian. In the word Piazza we
have the ONLY place name which recognises this heritage. You would deprive
the Genoese heritage ONE place name?
> You never saw such a visually secured public works as the Piazza. We could
> only see what was going on, by peering through cracks and holes in the
> fencework. And when those fences finally came down, the public was aghast
> at
> what little the square had to show for the public money spent on it. The
> Piazza was a hotchpotch. A fiddle, in Oz parlance. In SPanish, un truco de
> mano.
I seem to recall it was popular when it was first converted from the car
park it had become. Sure it fell into disrepair over the years, and
fortunately (IMHO) the military aspect of the then refurbishment has been
done away with in the present encarnation which is far more pleasing on the
eye. The public loos are also of far higher standard, as you would expect
and is proper.
> At any rate, the english speaking world has erased enough of Gib's history
> and with it, the Gibraltarian identity, without there being any need for
> two
> diasporan-Gibraltarians publicly arguing the pros and cons of meaningless
> name adoptions. :))
Au contraire! The English-speaking world MADE Gibraltar what it is today,
had it not been for the events of 1704, had there never been a British
Gibraltar, it would have never been more than a rocky promontory. Without
any natural resources, with no arable land, today it would have been nothing
more than a nature reserve. The only limestone cliffs for miles around, it
would have be a refuge for seagulls (which of course it is anyway), the
Neanderthal aspect might be completely unknown never having received any
archaeological attention at all, and it would have the various plant and
animal species which are peculiar to that place alone. Given its strategic
location, the whole place might be closed off as a military base, and a site
of special scientific interest. These two classifications would be
justification enough to ensure no civilian could ever live there today.
I much prefer what has happened rather than what might have happened if
nothing had happened, if you see what I mean.
K
Jim Watt
>Gibraltar's main street is known by every
>Gibraltarian as Calle Real.
Not today. Almost everyone calls it Main Street.
--
Jim Watt
http://www.gibnet.com
Lynx
>
> . . . and using the reulting tunnels for the defence of Gib, made it into
> the "impregnable fortress". Without such history there wouldn't be the Gib
> there is now! As to discarding the rock, much of the WW2 tunnelling spoils
> went to making the runway - not exactly a waste of resources, again very
> significant in making the Rock what it is today.
Inteligence service, more than anything else, has made Gib what it is today.
True, tunneling waste was used to reclaim land in constructing the runway,
as was land filling material imported from Spain. I remember heaing the
oldies talk about truckloads coming into northfront from the mainland. Can't
verify this though.
> I call it Main St. As there is less Sp spoken in Gib, the Sp names are
used
> less. Yes there is plenty of Sp still spoken in Gib, but it is less than
> there was. The schoolchildren of your agegroup used Sp outside of the
> classroom, now schoolchildren use Eng all of the time. Things such as the
> internet and sat tv make the use of Sp less relevant than it was. THIS I
> believe is the REAL reason for the Cervantes institute coming to Gib, the
Sp
> see any influence they might have had among the populace diminishing as
the
> populace switches off the Sp language
Main St. is the colloquial English translation fro Calle Real. I refer to it
by the latter in most cases, though depending on who I maybe speaking with,
will use the former as well. The 'switching off' of Spanish came as a
reprisal for the closing of the border. I remember my 'silent bewilderment'
when learning of some of the names given to children born during the closed
border period. Some of these were simply madeup names, while many others
being French. If not politicized, the Cervantes Institute could do a
wonderful job in Gib. The Spanish language was only introduced in school
cirruculum in the last year of my secondary term. Needless to say we
absorbed it like a dry sponge does water. It came very easyly to all of us.
But it was too little too late. What Spanish I know I have learnt of my own
batting. It is true that the young today speak more English than those of my
generation. But the colloquial language spoken in Gibraltarians homes is in
the main of Spanish extraction, albeit a corrupted potage of English and
Spanish. Personally, I don't feel any remorse against my own Gibraltarian
identity nor my own people for the influx of Spanish into our everyday life.
Given the close geographical contact between Gib and Spain and Britain's
lack of intergrating with and acceptance of the Gibraltarian people, it is
little wonder that we should have developed such a unique ethos.
> > Nameplaces should remain unchanged and true to the people.
>
> Should the namaplaces not change WITH the people if the people so
determine
> it?
That's just it. No one in Gibraltar was ever consulted about naming such a
centrally located and popular square Piazza. This surreal name was imposed
without validity nor qualification. Gibraltar has no specific or unique
cultural links with Italy what so ever. None. Zero.
> > Why change the
> > main thoroughfare to anything other than Calle Real?
>
> It is no longer Royal Street. Sp visitors coming to Gib are calling Calle
> Principal, which is a good translation of Main St after all. By doing so,
> ironically, Spaniards are eroding a bit of heritage that Spain gave Gib
Whatever the Spanish may call Gib's streets, is no reason for Gibraltarians
to further undo what is Gibraltar's. Calle Real and Calle Principal are in a
way, one and the same. However, I am intrigued as to why the primitive Regal
reference to the street. Gibraltar has had no shortage of regal visitors,
especially in days of old. So one's lead to wonder how this Calle Real
really came about. Main St is not the official proper name either.
> > El Martillo is a
> > historical name. Why renaming it with such an alien name as Piazza? No
one
> > knew then what the word piazza meant. And neither yesteryear nor today
do
> > Gibraltarians speak any Italian.
>
> Again we're on to the Genoese, who DID speak Italian. In the word Piazza
we
> have the ONLY place name which recognises this heritage. You would deprive
> the Genoese heritage ONE place name?
Indeed, indeed. In his book The Gibraltarian, H.W.Howes goes to excruciating
limits to demonstrate how distant from the Spanish we really are. Yet, one
cannot but notice that what we were taught to be a unique situation, is but
all common across the border too. The very same names of Potuguese, Genoese,
Sephardic and Maltese can be found in Spain too! Not only amongst the
populace but amongts the higher echelons of society and governing elite.
It may well be that Howes' efforts were a necessity of the time, when
apartheid was the norm. To promote such ideologies in this day and age, is
stretching fantasy a bit too far. To have done it for so many decades is
wrong. Such philosophy has the potential of deviding a people into ethnic
groups. In reality anyone who's claimed adherance to such ethnic origins,
could have been justly told to go back where they came from. Worse still,
they could have been providing cercumstantial evidence they did not belong
in Gibraltar.
> > You never saw such a visually secured public works as the Piazza. We
could
> > only see what was going on, by peering through cracks and holes in the
> > fencework. And when those fences finally came down, the public was
aghast
> > at
> > what little the square had to show for the public money spent on it. The
> > Piazza was a hotchpotch. A fiddle, in Oz parlance. In SPanish, un truco
de
> > mano.
>
> I seem to recall it was popular when it was first converted from the car
> park it had become. Sure it fell into disrepair over the years, and
> fortunately (IMHO) the military aspect of the then refurbishment has been
> done away with in the present encarnation which is far more pleasing on
the
> eye. The public loos are also of far higher standard, as you would expect
> and is proper.
I recall the general dismay and criticism of what had been done with the
square. The square is a most central location, flanked by the House of
Assembly and Connaught House. Whatever the square may have become was the
responsibility of the Gib Gov and City Council of the day. It did not
warrant changing into an elevated, cold-tiled piece of clinical promenade.
It's connectivity with the circumventing streets and pavements was severed.
It ceased to be a welcoming place, safe for a miniscule little cafe within
the precincts of the HoA.
> Au contraire! The English-speaking world MADE Gibraltar what it is today,
> had it not been for the events of 1704, had there never been a British
> Gibraltar, it would have never been more than a rocky promontory. Without
> any natural resources, with no arable land, today it would have been
nothing
> more than a nature reserve. The only limestone cliffs for miles around, it
> would have be a refuge for seagulls (which of course it is anyway), the
> Neanderthal aspect might be completely unknown never having received any
> archaeological attention at all, and it would have the various plant and
> animal species which are peculiar to that place alone. Given its strategic
> location, the whole place might be closed off as a military base, and a
site
> of special scientific interest. These two classifications would be
> justification enough to ensure no civilian could ever live there today.
>
> I much prefer what has happened rather than what might have happened if
> nothing had happened, if you see what I mean.
Your English speaking world is in the main within the constraints of little
Britain. The vast world of the English speaking world knows nothing of
Gibraltar's existance. I bear witness to that fact. As for what Gib might
have been if not for Britain, is like looking into the future. I have no
idea what might have become of Gib. But looking at Malaga, Cordoba, Seville,
etc. and given Gib's exclusive prominence in its Campo region, I dare not
even guess what might have become of Gib today. It woiuld not have become a
little austrcised colony, that's for sure.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
Surely "Royal St"?
> I refer to it
> by the latter in most cases, though depending on who I maybe speaking
> with,
> will use the former as well. The 'switching off' of Spanish came as a
> reprisal for the closing of the border. I remember my 'silent
> bewilderment'
> when learning of some of the names given to children born during the
> closed
> border period. Some of these were simply madeup names, while many others
> being French.
Some names do sound odd to me too, but odd names appear everywhere, as much
to do with who or what is popular on TV. There are children of a certain age
(now early 20s) among who the names Luke and Lea are VERY common in the UK,
thanks to Star Wars in the early 80s.
> If not politicized, the Cervantes Institute could do a
> wonderful job in Gib.
Oh it will be politicised, fear not.
> The Spanish language was only introduced in school
> cirruculum in the last year of my secondary term. Needless to say we
> absorbed it like a dry sponge does water. It came very easyly to all of
> us.
You are not that many years older than I. Your lot may have taken to it like
ducks to water, my lot were quite indifferent, we took it simply bewause we
were virtually guaranteed an A grade for virtually no effort. Other than
that it served no real purpose to us.
> But it was too little too late. What Spanish I know I have learnt of my
> own
> batting. It is true that the young today speak more English than those of
> my
> generation. But the colloquial language spoken in Gibraltarians homes is
> in
> the main of Spanish extraction, albeit a corrupted potage of English and
> Spanish.
But as over the years fewer young ones are bothered to speak Sp, THAT is an
aspect of home life that has been changing and continues to change.
> Personally, I don't feel any remorse against my own Gibraltarian
> identity nor my own people for the influx of Spanish into our everyday
> life.
> Given the close geographical contact between Gib and Spain and Britain's
> lack of intergrating with and acceptance of the Gibraltarian people, it is
> little wonder that we should have developed such a unique ethos.
As has previously been said, Franco was a son of his mother, let us give
thanks for Franco! The same may be said of the FCO who unwittingly has been
as instrumental in creating the unique identity as any other malevolent
regime.
>> > Nameplaces should remain unchanged and true to the people.
>>
>> Should the namaplaces not change WITH the people if the people so
> determine
>> it?
>
> That's just it. No one in Gibraltar was ever consulted about naming such a
> centrally located and popular square Piazza. This surreal name was imposed
> without validity nor qualification. Gibraltar has no specific or unique
> cultural links with Italy what so ever. None. Zero.
How com eyou see all these marvelous links with SPain that frankly no-one
else gives a monkey's benzimra's about, yet you deny that eritage which
derives from Italy? Tell you what, take a walk along old Naples and see if
you don't pinch yourself for thinking you are walking up Castle Steps.
> Whatever the Spanish may call Gib's streets, is no reason for
> Gibraltarians
> to further undo what is Gibraltar's. Calle Real and Calle Principal are in
> a
> way, one and the same. However, I am intrigued as to why the primitive
> Regal
> reference to the street. Gibraltar has had no shortage of regal visitors,
> especially in days of old. So one's lead to wonder how this Calle Real
> really came about. Main St is not the official proper name either.
Main St IS the proper name. It is evident in signs along it, and the Post
Office will know where to deliver mail if so addressed. Calle Real is a
cocloction anyway of the previous names for shorter lengths of it. There was
Calle del Mar and Calle del Muro. After 1704 these became Waterport St and
Southport St, the chageover occurring at the Cathedral, a small section
later known as Church St. It became Main St throughout its length in 1913
>> Again we're on to the Genoese, who DID speak Italian. In the word Piazza
> we
>> have the ONLY place name which recognises this heritage. You would
>> deprive
>> the Genoese heritage ONE place name?
>
> Indeed, indeed. In his book The Gibraltarian, H.W.Howes goes to
> excruciating
> limits to demonstrate how distant from the Spanish we really are. Yet, one
> cannot but notice that what we were taught to be a unique situation, is
> but
> all common across the border too. The very same names of Potuguese,
> Genoese,
> Sephardic and Maltese can be found in Spain too!
You keep on bringing this up as if it denies that there is a lot of Genoese
descnt in Gib. Not only does it confirm it, itr also demostrates the lie of
the Spanish claim to be "de pura cepa" - a pure breed - as they like to
consider themselves. They have just as mixed a background as everyone else.
> Not only amongst the
> populace but amongts the higher echelons of society and governing elite.
> It may well be that Howes' efforts were a necessity of the time, when
> apartheid was the norm. To promote such ideologies in this day and age, is
> stretching fantasy a bit too far. To have done it for so many decades is
> wrong. Such philosophy has the potential of deviding a people into ethnic
> groups. In reality anyone who's claimed adherance to such ethnic origins,
> could have been justly told to go back where they came from. Worse still,
> they could have been providing cercumstantial evidence they did not belong
> in Gibraltar.
Well, if that was the intention it manifestly failed. Full stop, turn the
page.
>> I seem to recall it was popular when it was first converted from the car
>> park it had become. Sure it fell into disrepair over the years, and
>> fortunately (IMHO) the military aspect of the then refurbishment has been
>> done away with in the present encarnation which is far more pleasing on
> the
>> eye. The public loos are also of far higher standard, as you would expect
>> and is proper.
>
> I recall the general dismay and criticism of what had been done with the
> square. The square is a most central location, flanked by the House of
> Assembly and Connaught House. Whatever the square may have become was the
> responsibility of the Gib Gov and City Council of the day. It did not
> warrant changing into an elevated, cold-tiled piece of clinical promenade.
> It's connectivity with the circumventing streets and pavements was
> severed.
> It ceased to be a welcoming place, safe for a miniscule little cafe within
> the precincts of the HoA.
Whoever's perceptions were correct or not, it's all been corrected now with
no vestige of the former.
>
>> Au contraire! The English-speaking world MADE Gibraltar what it is today,
>> had it not been for the events of 1704, had there never been a British
>> Gibraltar, it would have never been more than a rocky promontory. Without
>> any natural resources, with no arable land, today it would have been
> nothing
>> more than a nature reserve. The only limestone cliffs for miles around,
>> it
>> would have be a refuge for seagulls (which of course it is anyway), the
>> Neanderthal aspect might be completely unknown never having received any
>> archaeological attention at all, and it would have the various plant and
>> animal species which are peculiar to that place alone. Given its
>> strategic
>> location, the whole place might be closed off as a military base, and a
> site
>> of special scientific interest. These two classifications would be
>> justification enough to ensure no civilian could ever live there today.
>>
>> I much prefer what has happened rather than what might have happened if
>> nothing had happened, if you see what I mean.
>
> Your English speaking world is in the main within the constraints of
> little
> Britain.
Which was the Eng speaking world in 1704 . . .
> The vast world of the English speaking world knows nothing of
> Gibraltar's existance. I bear witness to that fact. As for what Gib might
> have been if not for Britain, is like looking into the future. I have no
> idea what might have become of Gib. But looking at Malaga, Cordoba,
> Seville,
> etc. and given Gib's exclusive prominence in its Campo region, I dare not
> even guess what might have become of Gib today. It woiuld not have become
> a
> little austrcised colony, that's for sure.
No, more like a military base as I suggested. Why try to develop a place of
cliffs and with a cloud factory when you have the far easier to conquer
gentle slopes abit further away? We did so becuase we had no alternative,
had we had an alternative would WE have done so? I think not. In the absence
of a British presence without the need for a dockyard I'm pretty certain
there would have been no land reclamation. The only harbour would be for
military purposes. San Roque and La Linea would not exist in their present
forms - they only came into being because of Gib. In their military base the
Sp would have built a runway, but it would have been far further inland than
it is now. Why recalim land and build it so close to the rock? Today's Sp
military airfield would be further north, be longer than it is now, involve
no reclaimed land, and be at an angle to the present one so as to lie TRULY
in line with prevailing winds, NE and SW. The only diversion off the A340
would be the road to the military establishment, that's all.
K
Lynx
>
> . . . and using the reulting tunnels for the defence of Gib, made it into
> the "impregnable fortress". Without such history there wouldn't be the Gib
> there is now! As to discarding the rock, much of the WW2 tunnelling spoils
> went to making the runway - not exactly a waste of resources, again very
> significant in making the Rock what it is today.
Tunnel rockmass as well as imporetd landmass from Spanish mainland, all
contributed to the building of the runway. The truckloads from Spain is not
my invention, but what I do recall hearing some oldies say in Gib.
> I call it Main St. As there is less Sp spoken in Gib, the Sp names are
used
> less. Yes there is plenty of Sp still spoken in Gib, but it is less than
> there was. The schoolchildren of your agegroup used Sp outside of the
> classroom, now schoolchildren use Eng all of the time. Things such as the
> internet and sat tv make the use of Sp less relevant than it was. THIS I
> believe is the REAL reason for the Cervantes institute coming to Gib, the
Sp
> see any influence they might have had among the populace diminishing as
the
> populace switches off the Sp language
The Spanish can call Gib's streets whatever they like. It is we/we naming
Gib's streets and squares with complete disregard for their
rightly/hisrorically eaned names. That we should do away with these names
that speak to us today, and future generations, of the origins of the
streets or squares, is what really gets up my nose!
We should be thankful that Instituto Cervantes are even considering
establishing itself in Gib. The hotchpotch colloquially spoken in Gib is
unto itself. It is only when you leave our shores that you come to realize
how poorly we do in everyday spoken language(s). Instituto Cervantes? Like
the Iberian flight, not too bloody soon!
> Should the namaplaces not change WITH the people if the people so
determine
> it?
Sorry paisano. The name Piazza was given to that centrally located
historical square, flanked by the HoA and Connaught House, without a minimum
of consultation with the people of Gibraltar. Yet, in days goneby, this was
an oassis, a peaceful garden, with a fountain in the centre, benches, etc.
You can to this day see the wrought-iron railings of what used to be the
central fountain. Next time you're in Gib, look up above in the general
vicinity of Mothercare.
> It is no longer Royal Street. Sp visitors coming to Gib are calling Calle
> Principal, which is a good translation of Main St after all. By doing so,
> ironically, Spaniards are eroding a bit of heritage that Spain gave Gib
What visitors to Gib may choose to call its streets should be of no
consequence. Gib's main street's original name, as we've known it for
endless generations, has always been Calle Real. The regal reference itself
might be worth investigating.
> Again we're on to the Genoese, who DID speak Italian. In the word Piazza
we
> have the ONLY place name which recognises this heritage. You would deprive
> the Genoese heritage ONE place name?
I have nothing against the Genoese, Maltese, Portuguese, Irish, Sephards,
English, Spaniards, Morroccans or anyother creed/race in Gib. I am all for
the establishing and maintaining of Gib' identity. If that is unacceptable,
I make no appology. After 300 years, most of us probably have a mixture of a
good part of the above mentioned running through our veins. So what? What
other European country can honestly boast of pure-blood? Let us keep our old
landmark names. Let us not sell our rich history before and after 1704.
> I seem to recall it was popular when it was first converted from the car
> park it had become. Sure it fell into disrepair over the years, and
> fortunately (IMHO) the military aspect of the then refurbishment has been
> done away with in the present encarnation which is far more pleasing on
the
> eye. The public loos are also of far higher standard, as you would expect
> and is proper.
You miss my point.
> Au contraire! The English-speaking world MADE Gibraltar what it is today,
> had it not been for the events of 1704, had there never been a British
> Gibraltar, it would have never been more than a rocky promontory. Without
> any natural resources, with no arable land, today it would have been
nothing
> more than a nature reserve. The only limestone cliffs for miles around, it
> would have be a refuge for seagulls (which of course it is anyway), the
> Neanderthal aspect might be completely unknown never having received any
> archaeological attention at all, and it would have the various plant and
> animal species which are peculiar to that place alone. Given its strategic
> location, the whole place might be closed off as a military base, and a
site
> of special scientific interest. These two classifications would be
> justification enough to ensure no civilian could ever live there today.
The English speaking world, other than the one you live in being Little
Britain, is far removed from Gib, its people, its role in both WW, as indeed
its role during the Napoleonic Wars. Incidentally, some of those Genoese who
came to Gib back then, were running away from enrolment into Napoleon's
armies. Only to be seconded into the British defence force.
> I much prefer what has happened rather than what might have happened if
> nothing had happened, if you see what I mean.
We cannot measure what has happened with that which might have been. Who
wouldn't like to live in Granada, Malaga, Cordoba, Seville, but to mention a
few magical cities within a few hours drive from Gib. Gib's fine, nothing
wrong with Gib. Gib is a most interesting place to visit, to learn of its
hugely rich history, not all of which in inbedded in militarism.
Gibraltarians are, and I never tire from saying this, amongst the most
hospitable and friendly people one could ever hope to meet. I will be the
happiest when I see less military plaques and cannons and more revivals of
Gibs ancients landmarks and medeival alleyways, gates, walls and streets.
Making Gib's ancient history come alive is what we should be labouring for.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> establishing itself in Gib. The hotchpotch colloquially spoken in Gib is
> unto itself. It is only when you leave our shores that you come to realize
> how poorly we do in everyday spoken language(s). Instituto Cervantes? Like
> the Iberian flight, not too bloody soon!
Many, so as not to say most, folk in Gib would be at variance with you on
the CI. Frankly no-one in Gib cares about the quality of spoken Spanish. It
is not seen as useful other than to order a few tapas.
> Sorry paisano. The name Piazza was given to that centrally located
> historical square, flanked by the HoA and Connaught House, without a
> minimum
> of consultation with the people of Gibraltar. Yet, in days goneby, this
> was
> an oassis, a peaceful garden, with a fountain in the centre, benches, etc.
> You can to this day see the wrought-iron railings of what used to be the
> central fountain. Next time you're in Gib, look up above in the general
> vicinity of Mothercare.
You've not seen the new one. But I do recall young mothers were full of
praise for the previous raided level of the Piazza as somewhere safe for
children to play while they socialised after school, with areas under cover
in the event of rain, with public loos on site. YOU may not have liked it,
certainly I'm sure you were not alone - but it was not universally
disapproved of.
I like the name.
>
>> It is no longer Royal Street. Sp visitors coming to Gib are calling Calle
>> Principal, which is a good translation of Main St after all. By doing so,
>> ironically, Spaniards are eroding a bit of heritage that Spain gave Gib
>
> What visitors to Gib may choose to call its streets should be of no
> consequence. Gib's main street's original name, as we've known it for
> endless generations, has always been Calle Real. The regal reference
> itself
> might be worth investigating.
It's only what YOU know for endless generations because no-one could perhaps
remember any earlier, which is not to say that Calle Real was what it always
was called. Why don;t we find out what Tarik ibn Zeyad called it, and stick
to THAT name instead?
> I have nothing against the Genoese, Maltese, Portuguese, Irish, Sephards,
> English, Spaniards, Morroccans or anyother creed/race in Gib. I am all for
> the establishing and maintaining of Gib' identity. If that is
> unacceptable,
> I make no appology. After 300 years, most of us probably have a mixture of
> a
> good part of the above mentioned running through our veins. So what? What
> other European country can honestly boast of pure-blood? Let us keep our
> old
> landmark names. Let us not sell our rich history before and after 1704.
I agree there is little left -re-1704, but you seem intent on destroying all
that is post-1704 in order to impose a pre-1704 culture. I might remind you
the present-day owners of the pre-1704 line of culture have been rejected
twice by referendum, overwhelmingly so on both counts. People really don;t
want to know, and each generation wants less to do with them.
>
>> I seem to recall it was popular when it was first converted from the car
>> park it had become. Sure it fell into disrepair over the years, and
>> fortunately (IMHO) the military aspect of the then refurbishment has been
>> done away with in the present encarnation which is far more pleasing on
> the
>> eye. The public loos are also of far higher standard, as you would expect
>> and is proper.
>
> You miss my point.
No, YOU don't get mine. The place should NOT be preserved in aspic. We
need - want - aspire to having - new tall buildings with mirror fronts
rather than red-tiled twostory houses with poor sanitation and no
electricity. We don;t want to be a white-washed village in the middle of
nowhere.
YOU might want Gib toi be so, picturesque and quaint for the visitor. The
resident wants every modern convenience that can be had.
K
Jim Watt
>Who wouldn't like to live in Granada, Malaga, Cordoba, Seville
me for a start.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:ughqp2hbsur2qfk7g...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 09:26:17 GMT, "Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote:
>
> >Who wouldn't like to live in Granada, Malaga, Cordoba, Seville
>
> me for a start.
Perhaps not you. Still, there's no shortage of English speaking residents
(ex-UK) in all the mentioned cities.
Lynx
>
> Many, so as not to say most, folk in Gib would be at variance with you on
> the CI. Frankly no-one in Gib cares about the quality of spoken Spanish.
It
> is not seen as useful other than to order a few tapas.
In the vast new English-speaking countries, people of all nationalities and
ethnicity work side by side. Everyone, sooner or later, adopts their new
country and soon realizes that nationalistic dirrentials of old are best
forgotten. So everyone works towards a brighter future. Sure, there are some
countries still living in the middle ages, but Gib's not one of those.
Achieving a good command of Spanish, a langauge already spoken by 99.9% of
the population, would give Gib and excellent tool with which to build
towards a brighter and peaceful future with Spain. This is not to say that
Gib should become Spanish, but to become a closer working partner with its
own mainland country.
To buy tapas in Spain, it suffices to speak English. Heaven knows, the Brits
are falling over each other in Spain.
> You've not seen the new one. But I do recall young mothers were full of
> praise for the previous raided level of the Piazza as somewhere safe for
> children to play while they socialised after school, with areas under
cover
> in the event of rain, with public loos on site. YOU may not have liked it,
> certainly I'm sure you were not alone - but it was not universally
> disapproved of.
Nothing's ever universally disaproved of, not even La Fuente del Capullo.
> It's only what YOU know for endless generations because no-one could
perhaps
> remember any earlier, which is not to say that Calle Real was what it
always
> was called. Why don;t we find out what Tarik ibn Zeyad called it, and
stick
> to THAT name instead?
Why Tarik, why not Ceasar? Sorry, I forgot, we have retained Gib's ROMAN
name in our Coat of Arms. CALPE.
At any rate, when did Gibraltar cease to be the Gibraltar I have always
known? True, I don't get to visit as often, but whenever I have, I still
hear and speak with fellow Gibbos in Spanish, I still see and even join the
queues driving into Spain, I still enjoyed churros with hot thick dark
chocolate drink. The funny thing is, when I've done these things, I've been
surrounding by fellow Gibbos! Has Gib really changed that much in less than
a decade????
> I agree there is little left -re-1704, but you seem intent on destroying
all
> that is post-1704 in order to impose a pre-1704 culture. I might remind
you
> the present-day owners of the pre-1704 line of culture have been rejected
> twice by referendum, overwhelmingly so on both counts. People really don;t
> want to know, and each generation wants less to do with them.
I am not intent on destroying any part of Gib's rich history. Be it ante or
post 1704. What I am not so supportive of is the "tunnel-vission"
perspective on Gib.that nothing existed prior to 1704, or that all Gib has
to offer is memories of military boots taking priority on civilian footpaths
over the "locals".
Gib's been built with the swet of many, not least of the Gibraltarians.
Let's blow that trumpet for a change.
> No, YOU don't get mine. The place should NOT be preserved in aspic. We
> need - want - aspire to having - new tall buildings with mirror fronts
> rather than red-tiled twostory houses with poor sanitation and no
> electricity. We don;t want to be a white-washed village in the middle of
> nowhere.
Oh, but to have the resources to buy a white-washed house in a white-washed
Andalucian town. Grazalema would be ideal, thank you very much.
At the rate Gib's going, it will become another Singapore. SIngapore: Envied
by HK for its green parks and friendly architectural environment. Today, not
even Singaporeans want to live there. The place has become one big CONCRETE
JUNGLE. I do not wish the same for Gib. No way.
> YOU might want Gib toi be so, picturesque and quaint for the visitor. The
> resident wants every modern convenience that can be had.
You can have modernity with traditional quaintness. Gib can nurture its
rapport with Spain. Perhaps one day young Gibraltarians may not have to
shove off to far distant lands to find decent work, earnings and homes.
Perhaps future generations of Gibraltarians may find all these essential
things within a stonethrow from Gib.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
I know of a few folk here in the UK who would love to live in Gib but for
the price of property. One resigned to purchase somewhere in a place less
desireable (to them) a few miles up and in from the coast. They have told me
this having visited there, not knowing my roots. Perhaps that applies to
many UK Brits who have displaced themselves to the Costas too.
K
K
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:enito...@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> Many, so as not to say most, folk in Gib would be at variance with you on
>> the CI. Frankly no-one in Gib cares about the quality of spoken Spanish.
> It
>> is not seen as useful other than to order a few tapas.
>
> In the vast new English-speaking countries, people of all nationalities
> and
> ethnicity work side by side. Everyone, sooner or later, adopts their new
> country and soon realizes that nationalistic dirrentials of old are best
> forgotten. So everyone works towards a brighter future. Sure, there are
> some
> countries still living in the middle ages, but Gib's not one of those.
> Achieving a good command of Spanish, a langauge already spoken by 99.9% of
> the population, would give Gib and excellent tool with which to build
> towards a brighter and peaceful future with Spain. This is not to say that
> Gib should become Spanish, but to become a closer working partner with its
> own mainland country.
> To buy tapas in Spain, it suffices to speak English. Heaven knows, the
> Brits
> are falling over each other in Spain.
The Brits in spain are there through THEIR choice, let us not make the
mistake often made by others of our plight.
Spain is not Gib's "own mainland country". Spain is the country which
(unfortunately) Gib is saddled with in having the only land border. Had we
bordered another country instead, or another country in addition to Spain,
none of the restrictions and petty behaviour we have experienced over
generations would have made any difference. It would have mattered not about
the border with Sp., we would have been using the border with Portugal,
France, Holland, Germany, Greece, Italy - you name it. The air restrictions
would not have mattered as anyone could have overflown the other country to
get to us instead. The restriction on the 350 code would not have mattered
as we would have been part of the other country's calling plan anyway.
Methinks your time away from Gib has made you look at Spain through
rose-tinted spectacles.
While it is not detrimental for Gibraltarians to speak Spanish, it would be
more beneficial for the Spanish to speak English than for the Gibraltarians
(or UK Brits) to speak Spanish. You have notions of language as art, and
you're welcome. For many, perhaps the minority or majority it matters not,
language is for communication. The language of science, of aviation, of
shipping, of radio communications even, is English.
>
> Nothing's ever universally disaproved of, not even La Fuente del Capullo.
I liked it. Better than the lack of anything that occupies the puddle now.
>
>> It's only what YOU know for endless generations because no-one could
> perhaps
>> remember any earlier, which is not to say that Calle Real was what it
> always
>> was called. Why don;t we find out what Tarik ibn Zeyad called it, and
> stick
>> to THAT name instead?
>
> Why Tarik, why not Ceasar? Sorry, I forgot, we have retained Gib's ROMAN
> name in our Coat of Arms. CALPE.
> At any rate, when did Gibraltar cease to be the Gibraltar I have always
> known? True, I don't get to visit as often, but whenever I have, I still
> hear and speak with fellow Gibbos in Spanish, I still see and even join
> the
> queues driving into Spain, I still enjoyed churros with hot thick dark
> chocolate drink.
AHA! Now you're giving it away! The Gib way toi have churros is with coffee,
chocolate is the Sp way.
>
> I am not intent on destroying any part of Gib's rich history. Be it ante
> or
> post 1704. What I am not so supportive of is the "tunnel-vission"
> perspective on Gib.that nothing existed prior to 1704, or that all Gib has
> to offer is memories of military boots taking priority on civilian
> footpaths
> over the "locals".
> Gib's been built with the swet of many, not least of the Gibraltarians.
> Let's blow that trumpet for a change.
>
>> No, YOU don't get mine. The place should NOT be preserved in aspic. We
>> need - want - aspire to having - new tall buildings with mirror fronts
>> rather than red-tiled twostory houses with poor sanitation and no
>> electricity. We don;t want to be a white-washed village in the middle of
>> nowhere.
>
> Oh, but to have the resources to buy a white-washed house in a
> white-washed
> Andalucian town. Grazalema would be ideal, thank you very much.
> At the rate Gib's going, it will become another Singapore. SIngapore:
> Envied
> by HK for its green parks and friendly architectural environment. Today,
> not
> even Singaporeans want to live there. The place has become one big
> CONCRETE
> JUNGLE. I do not wish the same for Gib. No way.
Remember when I said I was more comfortable in Vancouver? I meant it. My
favourite part? Downtown the bit which is all glass-fronted skyscrapers.
Marvelous.
>
>> YOU might want Gib toi be so, picturesque and quaint for the visitor. The
>> resident wants every modern convenience that can be had.
>
> You can have modernity with traditional quaintness. Gib can nurture its
> rapport with Spain. Perhaps one day young Gibraltarians may not have to
> shove off to far distant lands to find decent work, earnings and homes.
> Perhaps future generations of Gibraltarians may find all these essential
> things within a stonethrow from Gib.
Many find it within Gib already. Gib provides far more employment than the
overwhelming majority of places twice its sixe. The reason that many leave
is because despite this abundance of work, Gib produces EVEN MORE youngsters
capable of doing the high-end stuff than even Gib's inflated ability to
employ can provide. For example, in my hospital in the north of England with
no particular connection to Gib, one doc born in Gib, one doc whose mother
is from Gib, three nurses all born in Gib. In our catchment area one general
practitioner born in Gib. If this is typical across the UK (and there are
almost 200 trusts) then Gib has produced enough nurses and doctors to staff
Gib's health service very many times over. It's not that Gib cannot provide
resonable employment, it's bcause Gib can churn out highly qualified people
as if they were sausages, beyond its ability to employ them - but that does
not prevent these folk enjoying a high standard of living and leading a v
fulfilling life elsewhere. Should these exported graduates (Gib's largest
export) be dumbed down so they can occupy the many less well paid jobs taken
instead by the daily migrant workers from Spain?
K
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
>
> K
>
> K
>
K
Jim Watt
wrote:
>
>While it is not detrimental for Gibraltarians to speak Spanish, it would be
>more beneficial for the Spanish to speak English than for the Gibraltarians
>(or UK Brits) to speak Spanish.
peehaps we should all learn Mandarin instead
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
Lynx
>
> The Brits in spain are there through THEIR choice, let us not make the
> mistake often made by others of our plight.
Plight? What plight?
The Brits in Spain? You forget we're British.
> Spain is not Gib's "own mainland country". Spain is the country which
> (unfortunately) Gib is saddled with in having the only land border. Had we
> bordered another country instead, or another country in addition to Spain,
> none of the restrictions and petty behaviour we have experienced over
> generations would have made any difference. It would have mattered not
about
> the border with Sp., we would have been using the border with Portugal,
> France, Holland, Germany, Greece, Italy - you name it. The air
restrictions
> would not have mattered as anyone could have overflown the other country
to
> get to us instead. The restriction on the 350 code would not have mattered
> as we would have been part of the other country's calling plan anyway.
Safe maps ante-Hercules, Spain is Gib's sole mainland.
As for Gib being "unfortunately" saddled with Spain. We should thank La
Providencia we did not get saddled with China.
On the question of saddling, the saddle is usually far smaller than the
horse.
> Methinks your time away from Gib has made you look at Spain through
> rose-tinted spectacles.
Not at all. I have visited Gib far too often. There is a limit to how much
farce one can stand. The CM himself has stated positively Gib's new
relationship with Spain. Perhaps you're too close to the object, thus not
getting a clear view of the bigger picture.
> While it is not detrimental for Gibraltarians to speak Spanish, it would
be
> more beneficial for the Spanish to speak English than for the
Gibraltarians
> (or UK Brits) to speak Spanish. You have notions of language as art, and
> you're welcome. For many, perhaps the minority or majority it matters not,
> language is for communication. The language of science, of aviation, of
> shipping, of radio communications even, is English.
Excuse me, Gibraltarians already speak Spanish and have been doing so
without interuption for centuries. It is very much a case of speaking proper
or better Spanish. The level of English taught in Spanish schools is high.
Perhaps even higher than the level of Spanish taught in Britain, no doubt.
I have stated that for Gibraltarians to attain a high level of command of
the Spanish language, would be a most useful tool for better understanding
and dealings between the two entities. That anyone should wish ignorance for
Gibraltarians, especially in a language they use daily, is hard for me to
fathom.
> I liked it. Better than the lack of anything that occupies the puddle now.
Well, perhaps one of Cleopatra's Needles or some other falic symbol can be
found for that puddle. What could be more appropriate?
> AHA! Now you're giving it away! The Gib way toi have churros is with
coffee,
> chocolate is the Sp way.
You live in a black and white world. Why shouldn't I enjoy chocolates with
churros? And yes, I did say I've had it in Spain. I am not giving anything
away, other than what you may imagine. I'm a chocoholic. However, when
having churros in Gib, I do prefer them with black coffee, and a little
suger on the side for tghe churros. And of course, you know that churros is
Spanish, right?
> Remember when I said I was more comfortable in Vancouver? I meant it. My
> favourite part? Downtown the bit which is all glass-fronted skyscrapers.
> Marvelous.
To each his own. There's a place and time for evevrything, I guess.
>..... Should these exported graduates (Gib's largest
> export) be dumbed down so they can occupy the many less well paid jobs
taken
> instead by the daily migrant workers from Spain?
No, they shouldn't. The way you phrase it, anyone might think these
"graduate exports" are financed on the backs of cheap migrant workers from
Spain.
Jim Watt
>> Methinks your time away from Gib has made you look at Spain through
>> rose-tinted spectacles.
>
>Not at all. I have visited Gib far too often. There is a limit to how much
>farce one can stand. The CM himself has stated positively Gib's new
>relationship with Spain. Perhaps you're too close to the object, thus not
>getting a clear view of the bigger picture.
I don't think you can visit Gibraltar 'too often'
As for the 'bigger picture' one word - UEFA
Jimmy@jock.net JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
I think the bigger picture consists of more than a few people kicking a ball
around and getting beaten 11 - 0.
Lynx
"JimmyGibby" <Seeu Ji...@jock.net> wrote in message
news:aeqdnf7uaJ0...@pipex.net...
Too right. In this instance UEFA's just another diversion.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:enm77...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>
>> The Brits in spain are there through THEIR choice, let us not make the
>> mistake often made by others of our plight.
>
> Plight? What plight?
OMG - don't tell me you've forgotten? Let me remind you- Franco wanted to
assume sovereignty against the democratically exporessed wishes of the
poeple. His and successive (supposedly democratic) Sp govts have failed to
take this democratic standpoint into account and continue to pursue their
unwelcome take-over bid. Spain remains the only country physically in W
Europe with expansionist ambitions. To this end, they interfere and obstruct
our development, interefering at every possible level and at every possible
opportunity with every ambition and aspiration we attempt to express. Our
"guardian" (using the term V loosely) in the shape of the UK is so
bent-over-backwards trying oh so hard not to upset Spain (for they are
valuable allies!) that in the process they forget to stand up for their
friends, preferring instead to appease their no-so-amicable allies.
> The Brits in Spain? You forget we're British.
You forget we're NOT in Spain, nor do we wish to be!
>
>> Spain is not Gib's "own mainland country". Spain is the country which
>> (unfortunately) Gib is saddled with in having the only land border. Had
>> we
>> bordered another country instead, or another country in addition to
>> Spain,
>> none of the restrictions and petty behaviour we have experienced over
>> generations would have made any difference. It would have mattered not
> about
>> the border with Sp., we would have been using the border with Portugal,
>> France, Holland, Germany, Greece, Italy - you name it. The air
> restrictions
>> would not have mattered as anyone could have overflown the other country
> to
>> get to us instead. The restriction on the 350 code would not have
>> mattered
>> as we would have been part of the other country's calling plan anyway.
>
> Safe maps ante-Hercules, Spain is Gib's sole mainland.
> As for Gib being "unfortunately" saddled with Spain. We should thank La
> Providencia we did not get saddled with China.
> On the question of saddling, the saddle is usually far smaller than the
> horse.
Just because there are worse neighbours that we could have had instead of
Spain does not make having Spain as a neighbour wonderful. Just because
Spain has not treated us as badly as other people have been treated is no
cause for rejoicing. Sure other people have had a far worse plight than we,
but we should not therefore be grateful to Spain and let her rub our
bellies.
>
>> Methinks your time away from Gib has made you look at Spain through
>> rose-tinted spectacles.
>
> Not at all. I have visited Gib far too often. There is a limit to how much
> farce one can stand. The CM himself has stated positively Gib's new
> relationship with Spain. Perhaps you're too close to the object, thus not
> getting a clear view of the bigger picture.
Perhaps you're too far from the picture to appreciate the detail?
>
>> While it is not detrimental for Gibraltarians to speak Spanish, it would
> be
>> more beneficial for the Spanish to speak English than for the
> Gibraltarians
>> (or UK Brits) to speak Spanish. You have notions of language as art, and
>> you're welcome. For many, perhaps the minority or majority it matters
>> not,
>> language is for communication. The language of science, of aviation, of
>> shipping, of radio communications even, is English.
>
> Excuse me, Gibraltarians already speak Spanish and have been doing so
> without interuption for centuries. It is very much a case of speaking
> proper
> or better Spanish.
.. if it serves any pupose (not for me), if you can be bothered (I'm not).
If YOU want to, go ahead. Many Gibraltarians would rather Cervantes did not
set up shop.
> The level of English taught in Spanish schools is high.
> Perhaps even higher than the level of Spanish taught in Britain,
Of course. It is more useful for Spaniards that they should speak English,
than it is useful for a Brit to speak Spanish as I have said before.
> no doubt.
> I have stated that for Gibraltarians to attain a high level of command of
> the Spanish language, would be a most useful tool for better understanding
> and dealings between the two entities.
We know enough Sp to know when they are lying through their teeth, when
they're being sincere, when they're trying to take over out homeland, and
more than enough to tell them politely OR in words of few syllables where to
get off, what parts of their anatomy they should boil, and what we think of
those who gave birth to them - if you recall from your "book of best
insults"
> That anyone should wish ignorance for
> Gibraltarians, especially in a language they use daily, is hard for me to
> fathom.
Well, you are an artist and might like to use the imperative future
reflexive tense using one word in reply to a propositional reflexive ("Nos
lavamos las manos?" "Lavemonaslas!"). Most of us couldn't be bothered to use
such convolutions and would merely answer YES or NO. The end result is the
same (hands get washed) but while you bask in lingual contortionism and get
a warm glow in your amygdyla, the rest of us just use soap and water.
>
>> I liked it. Better than the lack of anything that occupies the puddle
>> now.
>
> Well, perhaps one of Cleopatra's Needles or some other falic symbol can be
> found for that puddle. What could be more appropriate?
No, Cleopatra's PHalic symbol is of no relevance to Gib. Seen the statue
commemorating the evacuation? THAT is far more relvant. See the last pic on
the page http://www.freewebs.com/zzzland/gibraltaruk.htm
But who needs something in the middle? A nice water display would do, or
given the proximity of the roundabout / fountain to the harbour, maybe a few
leaping dolphins with water gushing from their blowholes would be nice.
Actually Pilot whales would make a nice difference. As common around Gib as
some of the dolphins, but you tend to se them a bit further out in the
Strait.
>
>> AHA! Now you're giving it away! The Gib way toi have churros is with
> coffee,
>> chocolate is the Sp way.
>
> You live in a black and white world. Why shouldn't I enjoy chocolates with
> churros? And yes, I did say I've had it in Spain. I am not giving anything
> away, other than what you may imagine. I'm a chocoholic. However, when
> having churros in Gib, I do prefer them with black coffee, and a little
> suger on the side for tghe churros. And of course, you know that churros
> is
> Spanish, right?
Oh indeed. Have you tried the excuse for churros you get in USA?
>
>> Remember when I said I was more comfortable in Vancouver? I meant it. My
>> favourite part? Downtown the bit which is all glass-fronted skyscrapers.
>> Marvelous.
>
> To each his own. There's a place and time for evevrything, I guess.
>
>>..... Should these exported graduates (Gib's largest
>> export) be dumbed down so they can occupy the many less well paid jobs
> taken
>> instead by the daily migrant workers from Spain?
>
> No, they shouldn't. The way you phrase it, anyone might think these
> "graduate exports" are financed on the backs of cheap migrant workers from
> Spain.
No they're not, their education is paid for by Gib's treasury. Curioulsy,
whiel the UK undergrad now receives no funding from the state AT ALL unless
the domestic income is less than £30k pa (not means tested against other
committments like other bros and sisters) and remembering that the min wage
for someone in full time employment is £10.6k, the Gib-sponsored undergrad
still gets all tuition fees paid, a return flight per year to the UK paid,
and a grant of cash which has more than kep up with inflation over the last
20 years. All this REGARDLESS of parental income, and not restricted to a
certain number of subjects of study.
K
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
No, it's another division. It's in a different league altogether.
:))
K
Ken
The picture is not who gets beaten and by how much. Fairness demands that
all should be allowed to play.
K
Lynx
>
> OMG - don't tell me you've forgotten? Let me remind you- Franco wanted to
> assume sovereignty against the democratically exporessed wishes of the
> poeple. His and successive (supposedly democratic) Sp govts have failed to
> take this democratic standpoint into account and continue to pursue their
> unwelcome take-over bid. Spain remains the only country physically in W
> Europe with expansionist ambitions. To this end, they interfere and
obstruct
> our development, interefering at every possible level and at every
possible
> opportunity with every ambition and aspiration we attempt to express. Our
> "guardian" (using the term V loosely) in the shape of the UK is so
> bent-over-backwards trying oh so hard not to upset Spain (for they are
> valuable allies!) that in the process they forget to stand up for their
> friends, preferring instead to appease their no-so-amicable allies.
Britain and Spain both adhere to the ToU. This treaty effectively prevents
any rights of sovereignty to Gib and its people. Britain and Spain are
within their rights to respectively hold and claim Gib.
> You forget we're NOT in Spain, nor do we wish to be!
We're either British, or under British Rule.
> Just because there are worse neighbours that we could have had instead of
> Spain does not make having Spain as a neighbour wonderful. Just because
> Spain has not treated us as badly as other people have been treated is no
> cause for rejoicing. Sure other people have had a far worse plight than
we,
> but we should not therefore be grateful to Spain and let her rub our
> bellies.
I'm still glad we're not Honkonger Belongers.
> Perhaps you're too far from the picture to appreciate the detail?
Perhaps I'm too far because I couldn't stomach the detail.
> .. if it serves any pupose (not for me), if you can be bothered (I'm
not).
> If YOU want to, go ahead. Many Gibraltarians would rather Cervantes did
not
> set up shop.
Perhaps. But if it is as you say, why aren't all these Gibraltarians stating
so in this ONLY GIB NG?
> Of course. It is more useful for Spaniards that they should speak English,
> than it is useful for a Brit to speak Spanish as I have said before.
Anyone would think WE have a monopoly over the English language and who may
and may not practice it. Get real.
> We know enough Sp to know when they are lying through their teeth, when
> they're being sincere, when they're trying to take over out homeland, and
> more than enough to tell them politely OR in words of few syllables where
to
> get off, what parts of their anatomy they should boil, and what we think
of
> those who gave birth to them - if you recall from your "book of best
> insults"
I don't subscribe to politically inciting literature or general
media-brainwashing programs.
> Well, you are an artist and might like to use the imperative future
> reflexive tense using one word in reply to a propositional reflexive ("Nos
> lavamos las manos?" "Lavemonaslas!"). Most of us couldn't be bothered to
use
> such convolutions and would merely answer YES or NO. The end result is the
> same (hands get washed) but while you bask in lingual contortionism and
get
> a warm glow in your amygdyla, the rest of us just use soap and water.
Your Spanish's pretty! I would have replied 'Lavemonoslas'.
I don't think you should be lecturing anyone on "convolutions". Really!
> No, Cleopatra's PHalic symbol is of no relevance to Gib. Seen the statue
> commemorating the evacuation? THAT is far more relvant. See the last pic
on
> the page http://www.freewebs.com/zzzland/gibraltaruk.htm
>
> But who needs something in the middle? A nice water display would do, or
> given the proximity of the roundabout / fountain to the harbour, maybe a
few
> leaping dolphins with water gushing from their blowholes would be nice.
> Actually Pilot whales would make a nice difference. As common around Gib
as
> some of the dolphins, but you tend to se them a bit further out in the
> Strait.
Yes, there're good views, aren't they. Mind you, any view of our Gib is
always welcomed.
> Oh indeed. Have you tried the excuse for churros you get in USA?
Closest I've been to is Hawaii, too many fat bums and multicoloured hotdogs.
The indegenous locals were fine.
The churros down these parts aren't worth the expirience. So you make your
own or go without. I go without.
> No they're not, their education is paid for by Gib's treasury.....snip
Okay, okay. I should've known! :))
Jim Watt
>Britain and Spain both adhere to the ToU
Really ?
Including article XI ?
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:enov...@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> OMG - don't tell me you've forgotten? Let me remind you- Franco wanted to
>> assume sovereignty against the democratically exporessed wishes of the
>> poeple. His and successive (supposedly democratic) Sp govts have failed
>> to
>> take this democratic standpoint into account and continue to pursue their
>> unwelcome take-over bid. Spain remains the only country physically in W
>> Europe with expansionist ambitions. To this end, they interfere and
> obstruct
>> our development, interefering at every possible level and at every
> possible
>> opportunity with every ambition and aspiration we attempt to express. Our
>> "guardian" (using the term V loosely) in the shape of the UK is so
>> bent-over-backwards trying oh so hard not to upset Spain (for they are
>> valuable allies!) that in the process they forget to stand up for their
>> friends, preferring instead to appease their no-so-amicable allies.
>
> Britain and Spain both adhere to the ToU. This treaty effectively prevents
> any rights of sovereignty to Gib and its people. Britain and Spain are
> within their rights to respectively hold and claim Gib.
Yes and No, and Certainly Not. Let me explain.
IF the ToU is a valid document, YES the UK is within her rights to hold on
to Gib but NO it is not within Spain's rights to claim it WHILE THE UK
CONTINUES TO EXERCISE SOVEREIGNTY over it. The reversionary clause gives
Spain rights "before all others" to exercise sovereignty over Gib IN THE
EVENT that the UK should divest herself of that sovereignty. Therefore Spain
only has rights IF AND WHEN the UK gives notice of her intentions to quit.
UNLESS AND UNTIL that happens Spain has no rights over Gib at all.
The question arises, is the ToU a valid document? Gib's position is that it
is not. Gib has tried to get this looked at at the ICJ but becuase Gib is
not signatory to the Treaty she cannot instigate hearings there. The Treaty
can only be taken to the ICJ by one or other signatory. Gib's position is
very simple - the ToU is NOT a valid document BECAUSE of the UN Declaration
of Human Rights of 1948 to which both the UK AND Spain are signatory without
qualification nor exception. The UNDHR states that all colonial peoples have
right to determine their own future. In the event that a previously
entered-into agreement is at variance with the provisions of the UNDHR, then
the UNDHR overrules the Treaty or agreement or accord or whatever. The ToU
by its provisions prevents the full exercise of self-determination by the
Gibraltarians BECAUSE of the reversionary clause. All other articles of the
ToU have been done away with, and indeed the reversionary clause is the only
part of Article X that is still adhered to by the signatories. Given that
this provision contradicts the UNDHR (which UK and Sp agree to) in which
case the UNDHR overrules it, the ToU is forfeit.
QED, Spain's hopes vanish, the reversionary clause is no more. BECAUSE
Giblets have full rights of self-determination.
>
>> You forget we're NOT in Spain, nor do we wish to be!
>
> We're either British, or under British Rule.
We're both British AND under British rule, like Manchester or the Isle of
Wight, and have no desire to be different. We wish to exercise our full
entitlement to self-determinatin, most people (or so it would appear)
wishing to express that feeling without let not hinderance and NOT becaise
it is the lesser of two evils.
>
>> Just because there are worse neighbours that we could have had instead of
>> Spain does not make having Spain as a neighbour wonderful. Just because
>> Spain has not treated us as badly as other people have been treated is no
>> cause for rejoicing. Sure other people have had a far worse plight than
> we,
>> but we should not therefore be grateful to Spain and let her rub our
>> bellies.
>
> I'm still glad we're not Honkonger Belongers.
>
>> Perhaps you're too far from the picture to appreciate the detail?
>
> Perhaps I'm too far because I couldn't stomach the detail.
>
>> .. if it serves any pupose (not for me), if you can be bothered (I'm
> not).
>> If YOU want to, go ahead. Many Gibraltarians would rather Cervantes did
> not
>> set up shop.
>
> Perhaps. But if it is as you say, why aren't all these Gibraltarians
> stating
> so in this ONLY GIB NG?
Most Giblets can discuss these things with each other every day at work, at
the supermarket, at the Piazza (sorry - the Hammer), in the queue to the
cinema. Who the heck would I discuss it with around town here who would be
as remotely interested as I am, and as understanding of the minutiae of the
facts, of the development of the argument over the years etc? No-one. I NEED
to come here. The Gibraltarians at home have heard it all before, have had
it off their chests, have vented their spleens, and have no need to revisit
it here on-line.
>
>> Of course. It is more useful for Spaniards that they should speak
>> English,
>> than it is useful for a Brit to speak Spanish as I have said before.
>
> Anyone would think WE have a monopoly over the English language and who
> may
> and may not practice it. Get real.
Have I ever stated such? I applaud everytone around the world who learns
English. Every time one more person does so is one more person I can speak
with without having the inconvenience of learning another verbal comms code!
(leaves me more time to learn about ACE inhibitors, Ca antagonists and
Zeolite 5A). So again I say, it is more beneficial to the Sp that they
should learn Eng., than it is beneficial for anyone else to learn Sp. You
want to do it for an art form and get super-proficient at it? Fine, off you
go. May they leave the Cervantes institute at home. One witty letter writer
in Gibfocus suggeste that the Cervantes institute should be built in its own
purpose-built premises which like the new air terminal should have one edge
of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
should be on this wall.
Yes of course we like aspects of Spain - and dislike others. Jerez (the
drink, not necessarily the place), polvorones etc., pescaito frito, churros,
membrillo, chorizo. But this is a free market, and we choose not to be force
fed Guardia Civil, ayuntamientos, Quijote or their notion of democracy which
has much in common with Henry Ford - any democracy as long as it's theirs.
K
Lynx
>
> Yes and No, and Certainly Not. Let me explain.
>
> IF the ToU is a valid document, YES the UK is within her rights to hold on
> to Gib but NO it is not within Spain's rights to claim it WHILE THE UK
> CONTINUES TO EXERCISE SOVEREIGNTY over it. The reversionary clause gives
> Spain rights "before all others" to exercise sovereignty over Gib IN THE
> EVENT that the UK should divest herself of that sovereignty. Therefore
Spain
> only has rights IF AND WHEN the UK gives notice of her intentions to quit.
> UNLESS AND UNTIL that happens Spain has no rights over Gib at all.
The UK and Spain maintain the ToU is valid.
> The question arises, is the ToU a valid document? Gib's position is that
it
> is not.
Agreed.
>The Treaty can only be taken to the ICJ by one or other signatory. Gib's
position is
> very simple - the ToU is NOT a valid document BECAUSE of the UN
Declaration
> of Human Rights of 1948 to which both the UK AND Spain are signatory
without
> qualification nor exception.........(snip)
No argumant.
> QED, Spain's hopes vanish, the reversionary clause is no more. BECAUSE
> Giblets have full rights of self-determination.
I like to beleive that.
> We're both British AND under British rule, like Manchester or the Isle of
> Wight, and have no desire to be different. We wish to exercise our full
> entitlement to self-determinatin, most people (or so it would appear)
> wishing to express that feeling without let not hinderance and NOT becaise
> it is the lesser of two evils.
Yes.
> Most Giblets can discuss these things with each other every day at work,
at
> the supermarket, at the Piazza (sorry - the Hammer), in the queue to the
> cinema. Who the heck would I discuss it with around town here who would be
> as remotely interested as I am, and as understanding of the minutiae of
the
> facts, of the development of the argument over the years etc? No-one. I
NEED
> to come here. The Gibraltarians at home have heard it all before, have had
> it off their chests, have vented their spleens, and have no need to
revisit
> it here on-line.
I see, and agree. The price one pays for being a Diasporan Gibbo.
> Have I ever stated such? I applaud everytone around the world who learns
> English. Every time one more person does so is one more person I can speak
> with without......(snip)
Interesting discussion on our ABC radio the other day on the topic of
English.
The theory exposed was that there are three types of Eglish. 1, English
spoken by the English at home, UK. 2, that spoken by the English-speaking
nations, Canada, Australia, US, NZ, etc. 3, That spoken internationally,
collectively, by all nations. The conclusion was that not every English
speaking person, in fact, spoke the same language. Too deep and meaningful
for me.
>You want to do it for an art form and get super-proficient at it? Fine, off
you
> go.
Dear, dear oh dear. Que bicho ta picao? "Off you go"? Really? How much
further away would you have me go? Yes, I suppose, any language is an
artform. But there's no need to get so abusive. I say.
> May they leave the Cervantes institute at home.
Spanish is the 2nd most spoken langaige in the world. Forget the Chinese and
their Mandarin, for they all speak their won dialects, a bit the Italians.
> in Gibfocus suggeste that the Cervantes institute should be built in its
own
> purpose-built premises which like the new air terminal should have one
edge
> of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
> should be on this wall.
Annonymous, no doubt.
> Yes of course we like aspects of Spain - and dislike others. Jerez (the
> drink, not necessarily the place), polvorones etc., pescaito frito,
churros,
> membrillo, chorizo. But this is a free market, and we choose not to be
force
> fed Guardia Civil, ayuntamientos, Quijote or their notion of democracy
which
> has much in common with Henry Ford - any democracy as long as it's theirs.
The twine shall never meet.
Lynx
>
> Have I ever stated such? I applaud everytone around the world who learns
> English.
You sound like a bit of an artist too. Making music for the ears of
monolingual English speakers.
> One witty letter writer
> in Gibfocus suggeste that the Cervantes institute should be built in its
own
> purpose-built premises which like the new air terminal should have one
edge
> of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
> should be on this wall.
There's nothing witty about this. At best it sounds more like a would-be
Gibraltarian. At worst a Francoist.
Where is the wit?
To knock the general use of, and benefits of learning proper Spanish, is
tantamount to spitting in the air, against the wind!
> Yes of course we like aspects of Spain - and dislike others. Jerez (the
> drink, not necessarily the place), polvorones etc., pescaito frito,
churros,
> membrillo, chorizo. But this is a free market, and we choose not to be
force
> fed Guardia Civil, ayuntamientos, Quijote or their notion of democracy
which
> has much in common with Henry Ford - any democracy as long as it's theirs.
Some people do need a benevolent dictator, don't they.
Jim Watt
>> of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
>> should be on this wall.
>
>There's nothing witty about this. At best it sounds more like a would-be
>Gibraltarian.
Most Gibraltarians I speak to would like it located
three miles south of the lighthouse.
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> English.
> The theory exposed was that there are three types of Eglish. 1, English
> spoken by the English at home, UK. 2, that spoken by the English-speaking
> nations, Canada, Australia, US, NZ, etc. 3, That spoken internationally,
> collectively, by all nations. The conclusion was that not every English
> speaking person, in fact, spoke the same language. Too deep and meaningful
> for me.
While there are differences in Eng as spoken across the world, this should
come as a surprise to no-one. There are differences in language usage within
the same country, it would be little short of miractulous if there were no
differences between Canadian and Oz English - thogh one would have to ask
where in Canada and Oz, and also when as language useage changes with time.
However the differences are not so great as to make them unintelligible to
each other, and the more fluid communications between nations the les
incomprehensible they become to each other, as Canadians and Oztriches come
to learn each others peculiarities.
>> May they leave the Cervantes institute at home.
>
> Spanish is the 2nd most spoken langaige in the world. Forget the Chinese
> and
> their Mandarin, for they all speak their won dialects, a bit the Italians.
So the Sp claim and it may be so, but more power rests within the Eng
speakers than the Sp speakers when corrected for proportions speaking what.
>
>> in Gibfocus suggeste that the Cervantes institute should be built in its
> own
>> purpose-built premises which like the new air terminal should have one
> edge
>> of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
>> should be on this wall.
>
> Annonymous, no doubt.
Like just about envberyone else in Gibfocus it seems, though I frankly can't
recall whose brilliant idea this was.
K
Ken
"Lynx" <M...@Home.com> wrote in message
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:enr1t...@news4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> Have I ever stated such? I applaud everytone around the world who learns
>> English.
>
> You sound like a bit of an artist too. Making music for the ears of
> monolingual English speakers.
No, you see for every one ore person who speaks what I alreadyspeak is one
more person I can converse with for no additional effort on my part.
>
>> One witty letter writer
>> in Gibfocus suggeste that the Cervantes institute should be built in its
> own
>> purpose-built premises which like the new air terminal should have one
> edge
>> of the building on the line of the border. The only door to the premises
>> should be on this wall.
>
> There's nothing witty about this. At best it sounds more like a would-be
> Gibraltarian. At worst a Francoist.
> Where is the wit?
>
> To knock the general use of, and benefits of learning proper Spanish, is
> tantamount to spitting in the air, against the wind!
First you have to acept that there are any benefits to be had, and where
they are. If I have no intention of living or visiting anywhere that this is
important, it becomes unimportant for me.
>
>> Yes of course we like aspects of Spain - and dislike others. Jerez (the
>> drink, not necessarily the place), polvorones etc., pescaito frito,
> churros,
>> membrillo, chorizo. But this is a free market, and we choose not to be
> force
>> fed Guardia Civil, ayuntamientos, Quijote or their notion of democracy
> which
>> has much in common with Henry Ford - any democracy as long as it's
>> theirs.
>
> Some people do need a benevolent dictator, don't they.
The best form of government, apart from those forms that are better.
K
Lynx
>
> While there are differences in Eng as spoken across the world, this should
> come as a surprise to no-one. There are differences in language usage
within
> the same country, it would be little short of miractulous if there were no
> differences between Canadian and Oz English - thogh one would have to ask
> where in Canada and Oz, and also when as language useage changes with
time.
> However the differences are not so great as to make them unintelligible to
> each other, and the more fluid communications between nations the les
> incomprehensible they become to each other, as Canadians and Oztriches
come
> to learn each others peculiarities.
Absolutely. (I've never stuck my head in the sand, though)
> > Spanish is the 2nd most spoken langaige in the world. Forget the Chinese
> > and
> > their Mandarin, for they all speak their won dialects, a bit the
Italians.
>
> So the Sp claim and it may be so, but more power rests within the Eng
> speakers than the Sp speakers when corrected for proportions speaking
what.
There we go again. English is most definitely the lingua franca of the
world, and more so in the world of technology. But does that mean we, and
everyone else, should turn their backs on languages they already know other
than English? I mean, can you imagine Flamenco sang in English? Po dio po
dio!
> > Annonymous, no doubt.
>
> Like just about envberyone else in Gibfocus it seems, though I frankly
can't
> recall whose brilliant idea this was.
Not only Gibfocus, Panorama has a string of anonymous (inhouse no doubt)
contributers.
Lynx
>
> > You sound like a bit of an artist too. Making music for the ears of
> > monolingual English speakers.
>
> No, you see for every one ore person who speaks what I alreadyspeak is one
> more person I can converse with for no additional effort on my part.
Don't pull my tongue!
> > To knock the general use of, and benefits of learning proper Spanish, is
> > tantamount to spitting in the air, against the wind!
>
> First you have to acept that there are any benefits to be had, and where
> they are. If I have no intention of living or visiting anywhere that this
is
> important, it becomes unimportant for me.
You're one up on Shylock.
> > Some people do need a benevolent dictator, don't they.
>
> The best form of government, apart from those forms that are better.
Money makes the Verld go round, der Verld go round....
Ken
"Lynx" <He...@dios.com> wrote in message
news:nbaqh.556$u8....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Ah Flamenco. Hate it. Looks so . . . . cheap. Tacky. Dirty, even. Gaudy
dresses, even gaudier brash women over emphasising their gestures. The men,
when they get the stage, are in so much agony and pain at the claimed
sincerity and raw emotion of it all, makes you wonder why they choose to do
it if it hurts so much. The guitar playing I accept can be amazingly
skillful, but that's about it. The singing is rough, with all the subtlety
of a nutmeg grater. The "taconeo" which they wax lyrical over is so very
much less demanding than tap dancing which uses ALL parts of the foot not
just the heel . . . . .
> Not only Gibfocus, Panorama has a string of anonymous (inhouse no doubt)
> contributers.
Being anonymous one cannot tell in relaity whether it's the same person in
many guises. But the ingenuity of the pen names is good. Over the years
I've comes across several such as Y.O. Muti. Joe Garcia came up with a good
name with Armando Lagrande, cousin no doubt to Formando Lagorda.
My favourite is Sue (or Susan) Denham. Say it quickly and you have
Pseudonym - eh? Good or what?
K
Lynx
>
> Ah Flamenco. Hate it. Looks so . . . . cheap. Tacky. Dirty, even. Gaudy
> dresses, even gaudier brash women over emphasising their gestures. The
men,
> when they get the stage, are in so much agony and pain at the claimed
> sincerity and raw emotion of it all, makes you wonder why they choose to
do
> it if it hurts so much. The guitar playing I accept can be amazingly
> skillful, but that's about it. The singing is rough, with all the subtlety
> of a nutmeg grater. The "taconeo" which they wax lyrical over is so very
> much less demanding than tap dancing which uses ALL parts of the foot not
> just the heel . . . . .
Any artform, if not of one's liking can be so described. I like Flamenco.
But here again, one has to be careful, for there is Flamenco and flamenco.
Not that I'm an expert, mind you. Recently I have been asked about this
style of music by True Blue Aussies and people of Polish and Italian
extraction. Listening to with them, I was amazed to see that they could
"feel" the music. They asked me more questions than I could answer.
El Quejio in Flamenco Jondo is Europe's oldest form of known music. Like any
other artform, especially music, one needs to know how to listen to it. I
cannot listen to rap. The way you describe your perceptions about Flamenco,
clearly shows you haven't the foggiest about how to listen and, you are
obviously incapable of absorbing and appreciating the elegant and majesty of
the danceform. It is true there is a great deal of flamencucho going around,
but that's where the aficionado needs to discern between the "cheap, tacky
and dirty", to quote you, and the real thing.
> Being anonymous one cannot tell in relaity whether it's the same person in
> many guises. But the ingenuity of the pen names is good. Over the years
> I've comes across several such as Y.O. Muti. Joe Garcia came up with a
good
> name with Armando Lagrande, cousin no doubt to Formando Lagorda.
In Panorama Joe Garcia chooses who can and who cannot be anonymous. If ever
there was an autocratic editor Joe Garcia is it. Also, it is interesting to
note that for all his anti-Spanish diatribe, he not only wears a Spanish
name, but also chooses Spanish colloquialism in his sections, like
Calentita, Armando Lagrande and Formando Lagorda. Who is he trying to
communicate with? Calentita has long lost the edge.
> My favourite is Sue (or Susan) Denham. Say it quickly and you have
> Pseudonym - eh? Good or what?
Good. Never say jappo repeatedly infront of anyone. :))
Ken
> But here again, one has to be careful, for there is Flamenco and flamenco.
> Not that I'm an expert, mind you. Recently I have been asked about this
> style of music by True Blue Aussies and people of Polish and Italian
> extraction. Listening to with them, I was amazed to see that they could
> "feel" the music. They asked me more questions than I could answer.
>
> El Quejio in Flamenco Jondo is Europe's oldest form of known music. Like
> any
> other artform, especially music, one needs to know how to listen to it. I
> cannot listen to rap. The way you describe your perceptions about
> Flamenco,
> clearly shows you haven't the foggiest about how to listen and, you are
> obviously incapable of absorbing and appreciating the elegant and majesty
> of
> the danceform. It is true there is a great deal of flamencucho going
> around,
> but that's where the aficionado needs to discern between the "cheap, tacky
> and dirty", to quote you, and the real thing.
It could just be that, like rap with you, I simply don't like Flamenco. Am I
to be forced to like this as well as Lorca and Cervantes? How come YOU are
allowed NOT to like rap, whereas when I don't like Flamenco it illustrates
that I "haven't the foggiest about how to listen and, (am) obviously
incapable of absorbing and appreciating the elegant and majesty of the
danceform" ?
You could be described as being an intellectual snob. Mao would have you
digging up roads faster than you could order an egg fried rice!
> In Panorama Joe Garcia chooses who can and who cannot be anonymous. If
> ever
> there was an autocratic editor Joe Garcia is it. Also, it is interesting
> to
> note that for all his anti-Spanish diatribe, he not only wears a Spanish
> name, but also chooses Spanish colloquialism in his sections, like
> Calentita, Armando Lagrande and Formando Lagorda. Who is he trying to
> communicate with? Calentita has long lost the edge.
I wouldn't know about how he can choose to have anonymous contributions. As
to his name, he can't help that any more than you or I can help our
surnames. You criticise him for using Calentita despite his anti-Sp
pronouncements, yet what would you have him use? Calentita is certainly a Sp
word, but in the context of Gib it describes something peculiarly
Gibraltarian which is to be found nowhere else.
K
Jim Watt
wrote:
>Being anonymous one cannot tell in relaity whether it's the same person in
>many guises. But the ingenuity of the pen names is good. Over the years
>I've comes across several such as Y.O. Muti. Joe Garcia came up with a good
>name with Armando Lagrande, cousin no doubt to Formando Lagorda.
>
>My favourite is Sue (or Susan) Denham. Say it quickly and you have
>Pseudonym - eh? Good or what?
Q. Rios is a regular contributor over the years too.
Lynx
The question would be a valid one, if only rap could be categorized as
music. As I see it, rap's an invention which keeps the Good Old 60's 70's
and 80's being regurgitated time and again. There are good pop musicians and
writers out there, who the barons of the pop industry may have no interest
in.
Furthermore, Flamenco has a defined set of parameters, out of which the
music may sound Flamenco, but it is not Flamenco. Flamenco is also divided
into styles called Palos. Within each Palo there may be some variables, but
each in its own category must conform to the set standards. As you will
appreciate, Flamenco is not just a case of putting on a cheap, tacky and
dirty spectacle. Flamenco is a defined art form, with governing rules and,
like Gibraltar, a historically rich timeless tapestry. Given the
complexities of Flamenco, consider yourselve absolved. :))
> You could be described as being an intellectual snob. Mao would have you
> digging up roads faster than you could order an egg fried rice!
Too right. But Mao's grandchildren know only too well which side their
bread's buttered on. Hence, enter capitalism a la China.
> > In Panorama Joe Garcia chooses who can and who cannot be anonymous. If
> > ever
> > there was an autocratic editor Joe Garcia is it. Also, it is interesting
> > to
> > note that for all his anti-Spanish diatribe, he not only wears a Spanish
> > name, but also chooses Spanish colloquialism in his sections, like
> > Calentita, Armando Lagrande and Formando Lagorda. Who is he trying to
> > communicate with? Calentita has long lost the edge.
>
> I wouldn't know about how he can choose to have anonymous contributions.
I know and I can attest to that.
> As to his name, he can't help that any more than you or I can help our
> surnames. You criticise him for using Calentita despite his anti-Sp
> pronouncements, yet what would you have him use? Calentita is certainly a
Sp
> word, but in the context of Gib it describes something peculiarly
> Gibraltarian which is to be found nowhere else.
Of course he cannot help his name, nor should he. Why should he? The
question should not even be posed. His name like any of our family names and
ancestry, warrant a great deal of pride, respect and adherence to our
ethnicity and identity. The danger is that what we may pronounce in a
political arena, "others", knowing next to nothing about our ethos and
identity, may interpret as a racial slur on our engineered enemies. In which
case, in their eyes, we are pretentiously digging ourselves into a deeper
hole.
Calentita, if one is to believe and conform to the fixation of some in Gib
with Genoa (sorry mate), has its origins.....you guessed it, in Genoa. I am,
however, reminded of the widespread use of chickpea flour in Hindi
countries. Stretching it a little further, like Vindaloo, chickpea may well
have been popularised in these countries by those great seafarers the
Portuguese.
The Vermicelli came from China, the Tomato from South America. Question:
What was the traditional Italian national dish prior to Marco Polo and
Cristopher Columbus?
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eocre...@news4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Lynx" <He...@dios.com> wrote in message
>> news:S0hqh.717$u8....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> >
>> > "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > news:eobrq...@news1.newsguy.com...
>> >>
> What was the traditional Italian national dish prior to Marco Polo and
> Cristopher Columbus?
No idea - but I often ponder on a similar old kitchen question. The potato
arived in Europe from the Americas. Originally it was a toxic plant, and not
too much of it gave you quite bad stomach cramps. Indeed the potato today is
still toxic (though far less so) and if you eat too much unripe potato
(green under the skin) you can experience some serious gut rot.
Question - given that Europe already had lots of tubers which were rich in
starch (turnip, parsnip, carrot, swede) why bother trying to domesticate
something that was apt to give you a rough time?
K