The Token Local
Lynx
Gibraltarian. Defending Gibraltar against all things negative emanating from
Spain. You never pronounce yourself against any, and there have been plenty,
unfavourable winds from the UK against the best interest of Gibraltar and
the Gibraltarians. You refuse to accept and learn the local dialect and
customs. Your twisted idea of a good Gibraltarian is purely based on hatred
towards all things Spanish and nothing more. You promulgate hatred and never
even suggest anything remotely positive which might benefit Gibraltar. But
you have at last defined and shown your true colour by referring to a
Gibraltarian as a TOKEN LOCAL.
Shame on you Jim Watt. Shame on you and all who think like you. On all who
think that Gibraltarians can still be regarded as second class citizens in
their own homeland. Shame on you for not coming clean with your racist and
colonial attitudes. You are no Gibraltarian. You do not share the
Gibraltarians' dreams and aspirations. You write like a foreigner and you do
not fit nor measure up to what it is to be a true Gibraltarian. You make the
perfect Token Local.
JimmyGibby
"Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Well said.
Jim Watt
>Jim Watt, you parade yourself in this newsgroup as though you are a
>Gibraltarian.
I am.
And your question
>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative Party
>in Gibraltar? And why not named the Gibraltar Conservative Party?
Sounds like you want to start an argument and be offensive;
I've tried to answer your questions, I do not intend to answer
abuse.
--
Jim Watt
http://www.gibnet.com
JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:kqvn03l6ce0os12pi...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:10:56 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
>>Jim Watt, you parade yourself in this newsgroup as though you are a
>>Gibraltarian.
>
> I am.
>
> And your question
>
>>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative
>>Party
>>in Gibraltar? And why not named the Gibraltar Conservative Party?
>
> Sounds like you want to start an argument and be offensive;
>
Lynx
"JimmyGibby" <see...@jimmy.net> wrote in message
news:EKqdnRiGqsEXlJHb...@pipex.net...
How can anyone possibly interpret my original question as racist? This bloke
JW has no idea about Gibraltar or its people. And he obviously meant and
adheres to his view that Gibraltarians are nothing short of "token natives".
People with this kind of mentality will never be at home in Gib nor be
considered a local by Gibraltarians. Spain is full of English ghettos
populated by the likes of this bloke.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:kqvn03l6ce0os12pi...@4ax.com...
>
>>Jim Watt, you parade yourself in this newsgroup as though you are a
>>Gibraltarian.
>
> I am.
In your dreams.
> And your question
>
>>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative
>>Party
>>in Gibraltar? And why not named the Gibraltar Conservative Party?
>
> Sounds like you want to start an argument and be offensive;
The question is a valid one. Your reply refering to the one Gibraltarian in
the committe as a "Token Local" is racist and colonialist. You are not
thinking like a Gibraltarian you do not share any aspirations of the
Gibraltarians. You are what the Gibraltarians colloquially call UN
CALENTITA. A trouble maker.
> I've tried to answer your questions, I do not intend to answer
> abuse.
You have not answered my question except with an insult towards all
Gibraltarians by calling us all Token Locals, and I have most certainly not
been offensive in anyway. I have simply stated the truth about you and your
perceptions on Gibraltarians and our homeland.
You are no Gibraltarian.
Lynx
He doesn't have the gumption to come clean on his demeaning attitude towards
Gibraltarians. He does not speak for the Gibraltarians, anymore than he
speaks for England. He is nothing short of a troublemaker. A divisive
element on the NET.
Jim GM4DHJ
Ken
I don't get it. You provoke the bloke by asking how many "native
Gibraltarians" there are, implying that you expect to see token symbolism in
the make-up of this branch of the UK Conservtive party - and when he replies
in these terms, you deride him!
I remind you there does not HAVE to be a Gib Conservative Party. The UK
Conservatives have branches in many places where there is a significant
contingent of ex-UK folk, and Gib in that regard is no different. At least
in Gib in Euro elections the UK Conervative Party bears relevance, and
having a branch in Gib permits party involvement by citizens who otherwise
would have no experience of the party.
K
JimmyGibby
"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:euhcs...@news2.newsguy.com...
>
> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Jim Watt, you parade yourself in this newsgroup as though you are a
>> Gibraltarian. Defending Gibraltar against all things negative emanating
>> from Spain. You never pronounce yourself against any, and there have been
>> plenty, unfavourable winds from the UK against the best interest of
>> Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians. You refuse to accept and learn the local
>> dialect and customs. Your twisted idea of a good Gibraltarian is purely
>> based on hatred towards all things Spanish and nothing more. You
>> promulgate hatred and never even suggest anything remotely positive which
>> might benefit Gibraltar. But you have at last defined and shown your true
>> colour by referring to a Gibraltarian as a TOKEN LOCAL.
>> Shame on you Jim Watt. Shame on you and all who think like you. On all
>> who think that Gibraltarians can still be regarded as second class
>> citizens in their own homeland. Shame on you for not coming clean with
>> your racist and colonial attitudes. You are no Gibraltarian. You do not
>> share the Gibraltarians' dreams and aspirations. You write like a
>> foreigner and you do not fit nor measure up to what it is to be a true
>> Gibraltarian. You make the perfect Token Local.
>
> I don't get it.
I get it
> You provoke the bloke by asking how many "native Gibraltarians" there are,
> implying that you expect to see token symbolism in the make-up of this
> branch of the UK Conservtive party - and when he replies in these terms,
> you deride him!
>
> I remind you there does not HAVE to be a Gib Conservative Party. The UK
> Conservatives have branches in many places where there is a significant
> contingent of ex-UK folk, and Gib in that regard is no different. At least
> in Gib in Euro elections the UK Conervative Party bears relevance, and
> having a branch in Gib permits party involvement by citizens who otherwise
> would have no experience of the party.
>
> K
This is about rank hypocracy Ken, Jim Watt makes quite offensive posts,
usually about the Spanish, seems to support some idiot group of middle-aged
right wingers calling themselves the 'Voice of Gibraltar' or some such
rubbish.
He DOES NOT represent the views of any Gibraltarians I've ever met. He is
some tosser little Englander who couldn't hack it in Blighty.
Lynx
> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Jim Watt, you parade yourself in this newsgroup as though you are a
>> Gibraltarian. Defending Gibraltar against all things negative emanating
>> from Spain. You never pronounce yourself against any, and there have been
>> plenty, unfavourable winds from the UK against the best interest of
>> Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians. You refuse to accept and learn the local
>> dialect and customs. Your twisted idea of a good Gibraltarian is purely
>> based on hatred towards all things Spanish and nothing more. You
>> promulgate hatred and never even suggest anything remotely positive which
>> might benefit Gibraltar. But you have at last defined and shown your true
>> colour by referring to a Gibraltarian as a TOKEN LOCAL.
>> Shame on you Jim Watt. Shame on you and all who think like you. On all
>> who think that Gibraltarians can still be regarded as second class
>> citizens in their own homeland. Shame on you for not coming clean with
>> your racist and colonial attitudes. You are no Gibraltarian. You do not
>> share the Gibraltarians' dreams and aspirations. You write like a
>> foreigner and you do not fit nor measure up to what it is to be a true
>> Gibraltarian. You make the perfect Token Local.
>
> I don't get it. You provoke the bloke by asking how many "native
> Gibraltarians" there are, implying that you expect to see token symbolism
> in the make-up of this branch of the UK Conservtive party - and when he
> replies in these terms, you deride him!
I provoked the bloke? How did I do that?
The bloke provoked me by refering to the one Gibraltarian in the committee
as a "token native".
> I remind you there does not HAVE to be a Gib Conservative Party. The UK
> Conservatives have branches in many places where there is a significant
> contingent of ex-UK folk, and Gib in that regard is no different. At least
> in Gib in Euro elections the UK Conervative Party bears relevance, and
> having a branch in Gib permits party involvement by citizens who otherwise
> would have no experience of the party.
I have never said nor have anything against the Conservative or any other
British Party's presence in Gib. You are not making a point with me.
I do not accept anyone referring to any Gibraltarian as a "token native". It
is as simple as that.
Jim Watt
wrote:
>I don't get it. You provoke the bloke by asking how many "native
>Gibraltarians" there are, implying that you expect to see token symbolism in
>the make-up of this branch of the UK Conservtive party - and when he replies
>in these terms, you deride him!
>
>I remind you there does not HAVE to be a Gib Conservative Party. The UK
>Conservatives have branches in many places where there is a significant
>contingent of ex-UK folk, and Gib in that regard is no different. At least
>in Gib in Euro elections the UK Conervative Party bears relevance, and
>having a branch in Gib permits party involvement by citizens who otherwise
>would have no experience of the party.
Quite so, plus asking about 'native Gibraltarians' suggests second
class status for others.
In other places if there is a Conservative association its the
'Conservatives Abroad' Gibraltar is unique in having a proper
branch and the first one that is not in the UK. We are not
'abroad'.
Those who hate the Party are free to do so for whatever reasons
however its recognition of Gibraltar's unique status in Europe
that we have established a branch here and it took a lot of work
and in the future will be very valuable.
Jim Watt
>I provoked the bloke? How did I do that?
>The bloke provoked me by refering to the one Gibraltarian in the committee
>as a "token native".
Theres more than one, in fact theres three.
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:euhcs...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I have never said nor have anything against the Conservative or any other
> British Party's presence in Gib. You are not making a point with me.
> I do not accept anyone referring to any Gibraltarian as a "token native".
> It is as simple as that.
. as opposed to a "token non-native Gibraltarian" I suppose?
K
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:euhcs...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> This is about rank hypocracy Ken, Jim Watt makes quite offensive posts,
> usually about the Spanish, seems to support some idiot group of
> middle-aged right wingers calling themselves the 'Voice of Gibraltar' or
> some such rubbish.
>
> He DOES NOT represent the views of any Gibraltarians I've ever met. He is
> some tosser little Englander who couldn't hack it in Blighty.
I have no axe to grind personally, this is MY opinion and mine alone. Anyone
who wishes to agree with me or not is free to do so.
He does actually represent at least ONE Gibraltarian - himself. He acts as
spokesperson for VOGG, whose members are obviously in agreement broadly with
the opinions he voices on that organisation's behalf. How representative
that is of the whole is of course another matter, and which we can never
know as the VOGG vows never to enter political office, thus being free at
all times to speak its mind - a shrewd move, if you ask me.
Whether I agree with him or not is one thing. In a free society he is at
liberty to voice his opinions and THAT is worth fighting for. Whether I
agree with him or not, I would fight to defend his right to say whatever he
wishes to say - and from what I've heard, it's quite tame compared to what
the Spanish have previously said about us.
Of course that the Spanish committed the first foul does not exonerate Jim
from blame, nor does it exonerate anyone else who engages in such activity
either.
K
Lynx
And you have the gall to come out in defence of this bloke basing your
argument on a supposition? What kind of a Gibraltarian are you? This bloke
has, by definition, insulted Gibraltarians by calling us "token locals".
What is the matter with you? Are you a Mexi-can or a Mexi-can't?
You seem to have a problem. You think that this bloke is the mouthpiece for
all things pro-British. HE IS NOT. He is an individual who has no respect
for the Gibraltarian Identity. He bases his whole Gibraltarianism on a
plastic card. I asked him to explain what he meant by "token local" and
refused to answer. He thinks he is above all Gibraltarians. If you accept
his treatment of Gibraltarians as he does in this medium, that's your
business. But do not try to impose this grovelling posture on all other
Gibraltarians, participants and non-participants to this forum.
Jim Watt
Get off your high horse.
I meet all sorts of Gibraltarians every day, and have a more
realistic view of what they are thinking than you.
I'm here because I like the place and the people - my
skills and capital are portable but Gibraltar is my home;
I've made an effort have improved the lives of a lot of
people - whether they know or even care does not matter.
To be a member of the committee of the Conservative party
in Gibraltar you need to be a Conservative - every thing
else is irrelevent.
JimmyGibby
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
Does being a foul-mouthed little Englander racist help though?
Telling people not to post in Spanish, a language spoken by so many true
Gibraltarians is a testament to your ignorance and bigotry.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
news:3j3s03tf7go1brpfe...@4ax.com...
It is not me but you who is riding a high horse. In psychiatry this is
called displacement.
> I meet all sorts of Gibraltarians every day, and have a more
> realistic view of what they are thinking than you.
You forget you are speaking to a Gibraltarian. It would take you another
lifetime in Gib and you would still not be a true Gibraltarian. For the
simple reason that you do not accept the Gibraltarians as a people.
> I'm here because I like the place and the people - my
> skills and capital are portable but Gibraltar is my home;
> I've made an effort have improved the lives of a lot of
> people - whether they know or even care does not matter.
Your skills and capital are as transportable as anyone else's. As for
helping people, we all help people in various ways. As it is not only do I
help people here in Oz, but I also put my grain of sand into helping Gib
from this far. When your help is genuine, you don't flaunt it, you just do
it.
> To be a member of the committee of the Conservative party
> in Gibraltar you need to be a Conservative - every thing
> else is irrelevent.
Neither the Conservative Party in Gib, nor the prerequisites to join have
been an issue. The only issue has been your inept and insensitive attitude
towards the Gibraltarian identity. You have been totally blasé about your
disrespectful attitude, not caring one iota about any Gibraltarian,
regardless even of age, whom you might have offended. Your general approach
towards Gibraltarians in this forum is offensive and most ungibraltarian.
You haven't got the foggiest about what the people think or feel.
So long as you do not recant on your use of the term, "token native", when
refering to the one or any other native Gibraltarian in the Conservative
Party in Gibraltar Committee, you will be seen by any Gibraltarian accessing
this ng as a bigot, a racist and totally out of touch with Gibraltarian
identity, sensibilities, culture and pride. Furthermore, your attitude is
doing precious little for the godd of the CP in Gib.
Jim Watt
Lets remember who started this with the question:
>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative Party
The real answer is you care and I don't - as I've told you
its neither a qualification nor a concern.
The question is deliberatly offensive.
Ken
I do not attempt to silence you with your views any more than I attempt to
silence Jim with his. I do not defend him nor you- I defend the right of
both of you to speak your minds, even if I should disagree with either or
both of you. I do not descend into personal attacks, as you have here on me
simply for defending one's right to free speech.
Time for some reflection in Oz methinks
K
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
I asked a valid question because I was curious. As I would be if tomorrow
the Labour Party decided to have a branch on the Rock. At any rate, is this
a political branch or paranoids anonymous?
Native: Pertaining to one's birth, belonging by birth, belonging by race or
natural of, ancestral lineage to a place.
The term native is not a derogatory nor offensive one to the Gibraltarian
mind and way of thinking. If anything, it is a proud badge of being an
integral part of Gibraltar.
You have been inadvertently caught out by virtue of your, and it must be
said, English traditional way of "offensive intent" applied to the word
"native". Your interpretation of the word native is derogatory and
demeaning. No one can blame you for that. It forms part of your inherent
ethos. Having lived in Gib for so many years, you should have by now
assimilated, at least, part of the local values and meanings interpreted by
words. Yet, it was not sheer ignorance of the local parlance, which made you
come across offensively. It was your intentional use of the word "token"
combined with "native" that clearly indicated your apathy towards
Gibraltarians.
Whether you like to admit it or not, you have been intentionally offensive
by using the phrase "token native" when referring to native Gibraltarians.
Any Gibraltarian will know at least a handful of names and phrases which
would deeply offend any Englishman worth his salt. Yet no one makes any use
of these because there is simply no room for such offensive and dismissive
behaviour. Except, when you refer to Gibraltarians.
You have so far succeeded in demonstrating how removed you are from the
Gibraltarians. With such an unapologetic attitude, you are way below par to
even dare speak on our behalf. And you are certainly not ambassadorial
material for any entity, certainly not the CP.
Lynx
This is not about views. It is simply about not putting up with rude and
insulting behaviour. I am making the point that I will not stand for any
uncouth individual to willy-nilly throw about demeaning and offensive names
at Gibraltarians or Gibraltar. Especially when he calls himself a
Gibraltarian. What do you think his calling a native Gibraltarian a "token
native" tells the English-speaking world about us? The English-speaking
world is far and wide. It crosses over into non-English speaking countries
like Spain and many others. This individual needs to watch, and wash, his
mouth when he speaks about Gibraltarians.
> Time for some reflection in Oz methinks
Believe me, if I had posted a typical Oz reply, I'm sure it would have been
censored. We don't mince our words down here.
Lynx
JimmyGibby
posts Ken.
Ken
Like when you asked me in the post above (not snipped for authenticity)
"What kind of a Gibraltarian are you?" for example.
> I am making the point that I will not stand for any uncouth individual to
> willy-nilly throw about demeaning and offensive names at Gibraltarians or
> Gibraltar. Especially when he calls himself a Gibraltarian.
Like when you asked me in the post above (not snipped for authenticity)
"What kind of a Gibraltarian are you?" for example.
K
Ken
>
> "JimmyGibby" <see...@jimmy.net> wrote in message
> news:Aa2dnSM3_Yui2pPb...@pipex.net...
>>
>> "Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>> news:3j3s03tf7go1brpfe...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:45:32 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:eujj6...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Hs0Ph.6107$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:euhcs...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>
>> Gibraltarians is a testament to your ignorance and bigotry.
The language of this NG is English. English, a language spoken by so many
true Gibraltarians is appropriate for use here, and Eng is better understood
by more people in Gib than Sp. You seem to forget that the entire
educational process in Gibraltar has for as long as anyone alive can recall
been conducted exclusively in Eng. Cetainly among the computer literate
Giblets I would doubt if there is anyone whose Eng is not far better than
their Sp. If Sp is soooo popular a lang. in Gib why has no-one sought to
start a NG abut Gib in Sp? Visit the various forums in the various
Gib-related websites, and tell me which - Eng or Sp - is by far the more
popular lang.
Anyone who insists on posting in Sp cannot be stopped of course, but that
poster is depriving many of his wisdom. More peple read and understand and
speak Eng better than they do Sp, that is all.
Ultimately, you and all others will do as you like.
K
>
> True.
>
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eullv...@news4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>> news:wihPh.6692$M....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:eujj6...@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:Hs0Ph.6107$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:euhcs...@news2.newsguy.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:kwKOh.3416$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
> I have been surprised that you haven't challenged some of Jim's more
> extreme posts Ken.
If I were to challenge EVERYTHING I might disagree with, I would have no
time for other things in life, such as sleep, work etc. Battling against
extreme opinions that grate is best avoided, remembering there is no such
thing as bad pubicity and harping on against an extremist merely serves to
fan the flames.
In any case, as I have said, I don't object to any views being aired - I
respect the right of others to air them. It is when some try to silence
others BECAUSE of the views they express that I get rattled.
If there's ONE thing I can't stand, it's intolerance! :o
K
JimmyGibby
JimmyGibby
The issue is whether calling people who post in Spanish, c*nts or Spicks,
will enhance Gibraltar's reputation amongst Spanish speakers?
Jim Watt
>Whether you like to admit it or not, you have been intentionally offensive
>by using the phrase "token native" when referring to native Gibraltarians.
Lets be clear - I said there was no need for 'token natives' on the
committee. The Gibraltarians there are on the committee because they
are elected on merit not to make up the numbers. How saying that can
be offensive beats me.
You have invented the term 'native Gibraltarians' to make a point and
to start an argument. Do you want ten minutes or the full half hour?
Jim Watt
wrote:
>And Jim Watt is a very very good example of intolerance!
only of bitter little shits.
Ken
Well, I speak Sp and therefore a Sp speaker. Mind you I rarely use it - not
v relevant in the north of England. Gibraltar's reputation for me has
nothing to do with this attitude, I'm sure you'll appreciate. In the same
way that no one Spaniard is representative of all of Spain, neither is one
opinion representative of all of Gibraltar surely?
K
Lynx
Too right. What kind of a Gibraltarian would come out defending anyone
calling a fellow Gibraltarian a "token native"? What kind of a Gibraltarian
are you?
>> I am making the point that I will not stand for any uncouth individual to
>> willy-nilly throw about demeaning and offensive names at Gibraltarians or
>> Gibraltar. Especially when he calls himself a Gibraltarian.
>
> Like when you asked me in the post above (not snipped for authenticity)
> "What kind of a Gibraltarian are you?" for example.
I repeat. What kind of a Gibraltarian are you? How can you ever defend a
bloke who refers to another Gibraltar as a "token native"?
Lynx
>
> The language of this NG is English. English, a language spoken by so many
> true Gibraltarians is appropriate for use here, and Eng is better
> understood by more people in Gib than Sp. You seem to forget that the
> entire educational process in Gibraltar has for as long as anyone alive
> can recall been conducted exclusively in Eng. Cetainly among the computer
> literate Giblets I would doubt if there is anyone whose Eng is not far
> better than their Sp. If Sp is soooo popular a lang. in Gib why has no-one
> sought to start a NG abut Gib in Sp? Visit the various forums in the
> various Gib-related websites, and tell me which - Eng or Sp - is by far
> the more popular lang.
It is true that the educational and official system in Gib has always been
in Eng. It is also true that when school kids get home mummy kisses them on
their forehaed and asks them questions like, "como te fue miarma?", "lavate
lah mano que voy a pone la comida", "pon la tele que empiesa el programa",
"el Sabado vamoh al loco a compra unah cosa". Of course, when you arrive in
Gib and you come across an old friend in Main St, the first thing you get
asked is, "donde atao tio?! Vamo toma una beer! Tan terao de.....?" Then
when one walks into a bar, where the bartender's English, y no tiene ni puta
idea de como hablar en llanito, one says, "two tubes thanks". Who are you
really trying to kid, when you insist that Gibraltarians are not at home
with Spanish?
Yes, we post in English because it reaches a wider audience. We are quite at
home with English too. But please do not try to impress on anyone who does
not know about Gib, that we are a people directly transplanted from mainland
England, because the sinple truth is that we are not. We are a bilingual
people, despite English being the official language in all of our living
memories. The fact that we know Spanish proves hwo much the language is used
outside official circles.
I watched a solemn ceremony, taking place in Gib, some months ago. The
celebrant was officiating in "official English", while a good number of
attendants, who understood what was being said, were distracted by the
absense of "lingual connectivity". I felt that had the same been carried out
in Spanish, the ambience amongst the attendants would have been far more
atuned and respectful of the event. A people who speak a language at home
and then are, by habit, forced to tune into another language in formal
occasions, are more prone to float about, even though they are still aware
and register what is being said.
Instituto Cervante will not be in Gib soon enough.
Lynx
>
> The issue is whether calling people who post in Spanish, c*nts or Spicks,
> will enhance Gibraltar's reputation amongst Spanish speakers?
Of course not. But it seems these two have an agenda, which is far removed
from being true representatives of Gibraltar.
Lynx
>> will enhance Gibraltar's reputation amongst Spanish speakers?
>
> Well, I speak Sp and therefore a Sp speaker. Mind you I rarely use it -
> not v relevant in the north of England. Gibraltar's reputation for me has
> nothing to do with this attitude, I'm sure you'll appreciate. In the same
> way that no one Spaniard is representative of all of Spain, neither is one
> opinion representative of all of Gibraltar surely?
When you fail to practice a language you know and have been raised with,
part of your brain goes to sleep. It can also do untold damage to your sense
of identity. You should endeavour to practice and maintain, if not improve,
that language which forms part of your upbringing.
You seem to spend a great deal of time sitting on the fence. Why can't you
stand up for and defend that which is rightfully yours and forms part of
your persona?
Lynx
>> extreme posts Ken.
>
> If I were to challenge EVERYTHING I might disagree with, I would have no
> time for other things in life, such as sleep, work etc. Battling against
> extreme opinions that grate is best avoided, remembering there is no such
> thing as bad pubicity and harping on against an extremist merely serves to
> fan the flames.
You waffle on with your long convoluted postings like there's no tomorrow,
yet when your partner, The Lone Ranger, shoots off his mouth insulting
Gibraltarians, you claim you have no time to challenge. The time you've
spent writing the pitiful excuse above might have been better spent putting
your partner in his place.
> In any case, as I have said, I don't object to any views being aired - I
> respect the right of others to air them. It is when some try to silence
> others BECAUSE of the views they express that I get rattled.
>
> If there's ONE thing I can't stand, it's intolerance! :o
Your partner's right, you are a token native.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
I invented the term "native Gibraltarian"? Well, let me improve your
knowledge of the language. A native Gibraltarian as opposed to a non native
Gibraltarian, is one who is "native to Gibraltar". Simple and non offensive.
A fact of life. Unlike your term, "token native" when referring to a native
Gibraltarian. Which is insolent, insulting, demeaning and debased. One's
mode of expression and treatment of fellow humans says much about where one
hails from. Ever heard the word casta and descastado?
Ken
The sort who does not quote out of context nor makes malicious / mischievous
argument.
K
Lynx
>
>> I repeat. What kind of a Gibraltarian are you? How can you ever defend a
>> bloke who refers to another Gibraltar as a "token native"?
>
> The sort who does not quote out of context nor makes malicious /
> mischievous argument.
>
> K
Who is quoting out of context and making malicious and mischievous
statements if not your pal? Please do tell, what ill intent did you perceive
from the original question with regards as to whether there were any native
Gibraltarians in the CP in Gib Committee. The question is not loaded with
any negative intent. Except perhaps, the ill and distorted vision he
harbours of native Gibraltarians. This bloke fancies himself as the British
prism we all have to look through to see and be British. He thinks he is
Gibraltar's Moses. He thinks he can reinvent his lost sense of Britishness
at the expense of Gibraltarian identity in Gibraltar.
The original question stems from the fact that the Conservative Party in
question is based in England. Hence the curiosity in knowing the makeup of
such a representative branch in Gibraltar, and asking if there were any
native Gibraltarians in the committee. Now do tell us, what is so malicious
and mischievous about this question.
I asked him what did he mean by the use of the term "token native" in
reference to any Gibraltarian in the Committee. He had days to come back
with a decent reply. But no, not your buddy. He couldn't help himself, he
had to stick to his racist old colonial habits. He had to show the world how
high and above all Gibraltarians he feels he is. By his own adherence to and
not recanting on the use of the term, he is demeaning all Gibraltarians
accessing this ng. That includes you. Hence my question to you, what kind of
a Gibraltarian are you?
In your eyes, and your eyes alone, Jim Watt has the prerogative to insult
Gibraltarians. I call him a fake and token Gibraltarian. And your attitude
leaves me speechless.
Jim Watt
>I repeat. What kind of a Gibraltarian are you? How can you ever defend a
>bloke who refers to another Gibraltar as a "token native"?
Get a grip on reality, I said there were NO token natives.
Jim Watt
Actually its you who is insulting Gibraltarians, firstly me by asking
the question in that way and now you seem to be moving on to Ken
let use review the original exchange:
>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative Party
>in Gibraltar? And why not named the Gibraltar Conservative Party?
a) as many as get elected, there is no requirment for a token native
on committees as far as I know, however, there is at least one.
b) Because its not the Gibraltar Conservative Party, its a branch of
the UK Conservative Party.
You know I'm on the committee, but you phrased to question to classify
me as a second class citizen. If we asked people what their status was
when applying, we might be engaging in tokenism, or discrimination but
we don't - its YOU who feels this to be an important matter.
The 'at least one' refers to 'native Gibraltarians' rather than 'token
natives' as there are none of those except in your mind.
Now you have had the full half-hour, can we move on ?
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> natives' as there are none of those except in your mind.
Hard as you try to twist the argument, you fail dismally to convince anyone
that in your derogatory statement, the "token native" and the "native
Gibraltarian" are not one and the same. Particularly when you are being
asked one single question, "How many native Gibraltarians are in the
Committee of the Conservative Party in Gibraltar?"
The term native Gibraltarian instils a sense of pride on any native
Gibraltarian, as expected. Just like being a native Englishman should instil
a sense of pride in you. And it obviously does, when you can openly and
without reservation call native Gibraltarians "token natives".
I am not turning on Ken, but saying it as it is. He has not tried to
mediate, but to gag me and in the process failing to prove me wrong. He has
not as much made any sort of reference to your offensive quote, "token
local".
That you may make the occasionally gaff is not so offensive, as your
insistence in the face of a blatant insult, to insist that you have done no
wrong, and to have the audacity to try and put the blame of wrong doing on
someone else. You are not even arrogant, you are simply rude.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:51:06 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I repeat. What kind of a Gibraltarian are you? How can you ever defend a
>>bloke who refers to another Gibraltar as a "token native"?
>
> Get a grip on reality, I said there were NO token natives.
I asked how many native Gibraltarians were in the committee.
Your answer was;
"as many as get elected, there is no requirment for a token native on
committees as far as I know, however, there is at least one."
You profess to be a Gibraltarian and you call my kind "token natives". Well,
you know what you should do, don't you.
Jim Watt
Yeah, say fuck you and move on.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
You can't deny being what you are. Why don't you go back into the hole you
crawled out from.
darius
> When you fail to practice a language you know and have been raised with,
> part of your brain goes to sleep. It can also do untold damage to your sense
> of identity. You should endeavour to practice and maintain, if not improve,
> that language which forms part of your upbringing.
Utter bollocks!
The attitude you are advocating there is exactly what would be termed
a 'little Englander' approach something that you attack above.
Identiy evolves.
I've asked this before but I must do so again (and it is on the basis
of curiosity alone) how old are you?
darius
> It is true that the educational and official system in Gib has always been
> in Eng. It is also true that when school kids get home mummy kisses them on
> their forehaed and asks them questions like, "como te fue miarma?"
When were you last in Gibraltar?
>From what section of the social spectrum were you mixed with?
It's increasingly utter rubbish that you're posting.
If you had said 'a high percentage of people in Gibraltar will speak a
local mix at home I could accept it'.
Though it would also be true th
I think your knowledge is VERY out of date, you are thinking of a
world/time when most women stayed at home, and other similar
constraints of times gone by.
> Yes, we post in English because it reaches a wider audience. We are quite at
> home with English too. But please do not try to impress on anyone who does
> not know about Gib, that we are a people directly transplanted from mainland
> England, because the sinple truth is that we are not.
Nobody is saying that. (Other than you accusing people of that.)
Infact that is the key thing about the population of Gibraltar - its
diversity. And it is the fact that you have such a diverse input
*coming together* that creates an identity in its own.
You seem to be advocating the isolationist aspects of identity
formation as being crucial, in Gibraltar years of closed border may
have helped *expose* the Gibraltarian identity - but that is not what
is responcible for it.
You seem to despise diversity, you seem to be the person with serious
issues surrounding people moving about (despite the fact that it would
appear you live away from the country of your birth).
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eum7i...@news5.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "JimmyGibby" <see...@jimmy.net> wrote in message
>> news:S9udnYXBZsJPEJPb...@pipex.net...
>>>
>>> I have been surprised that you haven't challenged some of Jim's more
>>> extreme posts Ken.
>>
>> If I were to challenge EVERYTHING I might disagree with, I would have no
>> time for other things in life, such as sleep, work etc. Battling against
>> extreme opinions that grate is best avoided, remembering there is no such
>> thing as bad pubicity and harping on against an extremist merely serves
>> to fan the flames.
>
> You waffle on with your long convoluted postings like there's no tomorrow,
> yet when your partner, The Lone Ranger, shoots off his mouth insulting
> Gibraltarians, you claim you have no time to challenge. The time you've
> spent writing the pitiful excuse above might have been better spent
> putting your partner in his place.
Partner?
Ken
So now you propose to tell me what I should dom in order to define myself.
And to think that Denis in Singapore thought +I+ was opinionated! When I
don't speak Sp, I don't forget it - it just remains unused. I have no idea
what it is you get up to on a daily basis, but I assure you I have plenty
going on inmy daily life to keep me awake, alert, orientated and learning
new stuff. My identity remains itact meanwhile.
In my place of work there are now FOUR individuals (inc myself) who are Gib
born. Though we all work in different departments within the same
institution (in which there are over 3000 employees) we bump into each other
often in the course of the work. Curiously, NONE of the other three has ever
seen fit to speak Sp in the course of normal conversation, EVEN WHEN there
are no non-Sp speakers around. As well as these four Janitos, there are
others I know here who I meet occasionally, and NONE has ever started a
conversation in Sp. As it happens there is also a Venezuelan chap who
despite having an accent you stand a spoon in, refuses to speak Sp (in his
case in order to improve his Eng).
So there you are. Sp may be part of your persona. It appears not to be a
significant part of the identity of the several other Janitos in this part
of the UK. Whether it is part of mine is up to me (it isn't). I'm not
telling you who or what to be, do me a similar courtesy. It does appear
though that you are obsessed with the language and culture of Sp. Fair
enough, but please desist from insisting I should embrace that which I would
rather not.
K
Ken
When did I ever stand for election? When have I ever proposed that the
opinions I express are anyone's other than my own?
K
Ken
Your use of the term "native Gibraltarian" as opposed to "naturalised
Gibraltarian" seeks to drive a distinction where none exists. There has
NEVER been ethic acrimony in Gib. NEVER has anyone sought to subdivide
Gibraltarians according to their ancestry - until you just now with this
invented term. Sure, you can guess as to someone's paternal lineage by the
surname, hence for example Azzopardis have had some Maltese somewhere in the
background, Costas have had some Portuguese, Lopez some Spanish, Summerfield
some UK and Baglieto some Italian / Genoese. But NO-ONE has EVER attempted
any disctinction along these or any other ethnic grounds - until YOU start
bleating on about native and non-native Gibraltarians. Shame, that it should
be a Janito who introduces the first HINTS of devise racism among us!
ALL Janitos are equal - and unlike Animal Farm, NONE are more equal than
others WHATEVER their ancestry.
This has NOTHING TO DO with whether I agree with Jim or not on this or any
other issue.
K
Ken
>
> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eum41...@news5.newsguy.com...
>>
>> The language of this NG is English. English, a language spoken by so many
>> true Gibraltarians is appropriate for use here, and Eng is better
>> understood by more people in Gib than Sp. You seem to forget that the
>> entire educational process in Gibraltar has for as long as anyone alive
>> can recall been conducted exclusively in Eng. Cetainly among the computer
>> literate Giblets I would doubt if there is anyone whose Eng is not far
>> better than their Sp. If Sp is soooo popular a lang. in Gib why has
>> no-one sought to start a NG abut Gib in Sp? Visit the various forums in
>> the various Gib-related websites, and tell me which - Eng or Sp - is by
>> far the more popular lang.
>
> It is true that the educational and official system in Gib has always been
> in Eng. It is also true that when school kids get home mummy kisses them
> on their forehaed and asks them questions like, "como te fue miarma?",
> "lavate lah mano que voy a pone la comida", "pon la tele que empiesa el
> programa", "el Sabado vamoh al loco a compra unah cosa".
Perhaps YOUR mother greeted you so, consider the possibility that not all
families are exactly as yours was. Consider that the useage of Sp in Gib has
declined markedly over the generations.
> Of course, when you arrive in Gib and you come across an old friend in
> Main St, the first thing you get asked is, "donde atao tio?! Vamo toma una
> beer! Tan terao de.....?" Then when one walks into a bar, where the
> bartender's English, y no tiene ni puta idea de como hablar en llanito,
> one says, "two tubes thanks". Who are you really trying to kid, when you
> insist that Gibraltarians are not at home with Spanish?
When YOU meet an old friend of YOUR generation, yes. When a 25 year old
meets a friend of HIS generation, far less so if at all. Yes of course these
35 year old PROBABLY can conduct the conversation in either Eng OR Sp, or
more likely a mixture of both, but with every generation the use of Sp in
Gib has been dwindling. PERHAPS it will increase as cross-border cooperation
increases, BUT it is also the case that it is in the interests of Sp and
each Spaniard to increase HIS use of Eng - not so as to communicate with
Gib, but to communicate with everyone else in the world. The world of
commerce, of science, of telecommunications, and most recently of computing
(thanks to Microsoft being in the NORTHERN US where Sp is scant) is all
English.
> Yes, we post in English because it reaches a wider audience. We are quite
> at home with English too. But please do not try to impress on anyone who
> does not know about Gib, that we are a people directly transplanted from
> mainland England, because the sinple truth is that we are not.
Who ever said we were? I've been banging on about the Genoese bit for ages!
> We are a bilingual people, despite English being the official language in
> all of our living memories. The fact that we know Spanish proves hwo much
> the language is used outside official circles.
BUT - anyone achieving anything does so in English. Anynie conducting
business writes letters, files accounts, issues invoices and receipts, and
does tax returns in English. Sp is used for such monumnetous stuff as
discussing yesterday's football match, and things of that ilk.
> I watched a solemn ceremony, taking place in Gib, some months ago. The
> celebrant was officiating in "official English", while a good number of
> attendants, who understood what was being said, were distracted by the
> absense of "lingual connectivity". I felt that had the same been carried
> out in Spanish, the ambience amongst the attendants would have been far
> more atuned and respectful of the event. A people who speak a language at
> home and then are, by habit, forced to tune into another language in
> formal occasions, are more prone to float about, even though they are
> still aware and register what is being said.
Your interpretation surely. If all were sooooo uncomfortable with Eng., why
do it?
> Instituto Cervante will not be in Gib soon enough.
Hope they never arrive.
Ken
Lynx
"darius" <Darius....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175439083.0...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
You know as much about Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians as Jaimito who
beleives himself to be a local, even though he doesn't hesitate to call
locals "token natives".
Lynx
> On 1 Apr, 02:33, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>> When you fail to practice a language you know and have been raised with,
>> part of your brain goes to sleep. It can also do untold damage to your
>> sense
>> of identity. You should endeavour to practice and maintain, if not
>> improve,
>> that language which forms part of your upbringing.
>
> Utter bollocks!
>
> The attitude you are advocating there is exactly what would be termed
> a 'little Englander' approach something that you attack above.
How many languages do you speak? Do you practice them all?
> Identiy evolves.
So what's your identity then?
Lynx
>
> My identity remains itact meanwhile.
Well, someone in Canada thinks identy doesn't remain the same. Interesting
theory, I say.
> In my place of work there are now FOUR individuals (inc myself) who are
> Gib born. Though we all work in different departments within the same
> institution (in which there are over 3000 employees) we bump into each
> other often in the course of the work. Curiously, NONE of the other three
> has ever seen fit to speak Sp in the course of normal conversation, EVEN
> WHEN there are no non-Sp speakers around. As well as these four Janitos,
> there are others I know here who I meet occasionally, and NONE has ever
> started a conversation in Sp. As it happens there is also a Venezuelan
> chap who despite having an accent you stand a spoon in, refuses to speak
> Sp (in his case in order to improve his Eng).
Big brother must be watching you lot.
In my place of work there are two colleagues who speak Spanish. One I don't
have the time of day for. The other having been raised here, always tries to
strike up a conversation in Spanish, mainly to practice. I see nothing wrong
with that anymore than do the rest of my colleagues who are in the main
English speaking Aussies. Whenever ethnic jokes are cracked, about any
ethnicity including English, we all laugh. There's no hang-ups about
speaking a foreign language in this part of the world.
> So there you are. Sp may be part of your persona. It appears not to be a
> significant part of the identity of the several other Janitos in this part
> of the UK. Whether it is part of mine is up to me (it isn't). I'm not
> telling you who or what to be, do me a similar courtesy. It does appear
> though that you are obsessed with the language and culture of Sp. Fair
> enough, but please desist from insisting I should embrace that which I
> would rather not.
Well, I have to say, you really got me now. Below two quotes, the 1st from
your previous posting and the 2nd from your posting I'm replying to now:
"Well, I speak Sp and therefore a Sp speaker."
"When I don't speak Sp, I don't forget it - it just remains unused."
You almost had me beleiving I was the confused one.
Lynx
>
> "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote in message
> news:NYCPh.7139$M.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Ken" <k...@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:eum41...@news5.newsguy.com...
>>>
>>> The language of this NG is English. English, a language spoken by so
>>> many true Gibraltarians is appropriate for use here, and Eng is better
>>> understood by more people in Gib than Sp. You seem to forget that the
>>> entire educational process in Gibraltar has for as long as anyone alive
>>> can recall been conducted exclusively in Eng. Cetainly among the
>>> computer literate Giblets I would doubt if there is anyone whose Eng is
>>> not far better than their Sp. If Sp is soooo popular a lang. in Gib why
>>> has no-one sought to start a NG abut Gib in Sp? Visit the various forums
>>> in the various Gib-related websites, and tell me which - Eng or Sp - is
>>> by far the more popular lang.
>>
>> It is true that the educational and official system in Gib has always
>> been in Eng. It is also true that when school kids get home mummy kisses
>> them on their forehaed and asks them questions like, "como te fue
>> miarma?", "lavate lah mano que voy a pone la comida", "pon la tele que
>> empiesa el programa", "el Sabado vamoh al loco a compra unah cosa".
>
> Perhaps YOUR mother greeted you so, consider the possibility that not all
> families are exactly as yours was. Consider that the useage of Sp in Gib
> has declined markedly over the generations.
However my mother greeted me is my business and mine alone. I would not get
too personal if I were you RUIZ. After all, Manolito's not exactly an
English name. Don't you agree? I thought you a cut above Jaimito.
You have stated in two consecutive postings that you do speak Spanish. Were
and how did you learn the language? Were you enrolled in a special Spanish
language school, or did you pick it up like all native Gibraltarians, at
home.
>> Of course, when you arrive in Gib and you come across an old friend in
>> Main St, the first thing you get asked is, "donde atao tio?! Vamo toma
>> una beer! Tan terao de.....?" Then when one walks into a bar, where the
>> bartender's English, y no tiene ni puta idea de como hablar en llanito,
>> one says, "two tubes thanks". Who are you really trying to kid, when you
>> insist that Gibraltarians are not at home with Spanish?
>
> When YOU meet an old friend of YOUR generation, yes. When a 25 year old
> meets a friend of HIS generation, far less so if at all. Yes of course
> these 35 year old PROBABLY can conduct the conversation in either Eng OR
> Sp, or more likely a mixture of both, but with every generation the use of
> Sp in Gib has been dwindling. PERHAPS it will increase as cross-border
> cooperation increases, BUT it is also the case that it is in the interests
> of Sp and each Spaniard to increase HIS use of Eng - not so as to
> communicate with Gib, but to communicate with everyone else in the world.
> The world of commerce, of science, of telecommunications, and most
> recently of computing (thanks to Microsoft being in the NORTHERN US where
> Sp is scant) is all English.
25 year olds, 35 year olds. You sound like you came down in the last shower
mate. Are you trying to make me beleieve that Gibraltarians of different age
groups don't talk to each other? Listen mate, I don't have a problem with
either language, and nor do everyone I know back home. Where are you coming
from? You're full of it mate, you're really full of it.
>> Yes, we post in English because it reaches a wider audience. We are quite
>> at home with English too. But please do not try to impress on anyone who
>> does not know about Gib, that we are a people directly transplanted from
>> mainland England, because the sinple truth is that we are not.
>
> Who ever said we were? I've been banging on about the Genoese bit for
> ages!
Of course, who can forget about the Genoese. Those Genoese of old must have
been onto something. History tells us they were in the main military men and
sailors. Glad I wasn't around then.
>> We are a bilingual people, despite English being the official language in
>> all of our living memories. The fact that we know Spanish proves hwo much
>> the language is used outside official circles.
>
> BUT - anyone achieving anything does so in English. Anynie conducting
> business writes letters, files accounts, issues invoices and receipts, and
> does tax returns in English. Sp is used for such monumnetous stuff as
> discussing yesterday's football match, and things of that ilk.
Agreed, English is the business language. Spanish is the social language.
>> I watched a solemn ceremony, taking place in Gib, some months ago. The
>> celebrant was officiating in "official English", while a good number of
>> attendants, who understood what was being said, were distracted by the
>> absense of "lingual connectivity". I felt that had the same been carried
>> out in Spanish, the ambience amongst the attendants would have been far
>> more atuned and respectful of the event. A people who speak a language at
>> home and then are, by habit, forced to tune into another language in
>> formal occasions, are more prone to float about, even though they are
>> still aware and register what is being said.
>
> Your interpretation surely. If all were sooooo uncomfortable with Eng.,
> why do it?
They were not uncomfortable, they were simply on the moon!
>> Instituto Cervante will not be in Gib soon enough.
>
> Hope they never arrive.
Sounds to me like you need it, how else will you socialise and discuss
yesterday's football match and things of that ilk?
Lynx
>
> Your use of the term "native Gibraltarian" as opposed to "naturalised
> Gibraltarian" seeks to drive a distinction where none exists.
What has Jaimito got over you? Why do you insist on standing up for him when
he is the one who uses insultive language?
> There has NEVER been ethic acrimony in Gib.
Did you mean to say ethnic? I think you did.
> NEVER has anyone sought to subdivide Gibraltarians according to their
> ancestry - until you just now with this invented term.
My invention? Are you telling me Gib's just discovered the term through me?
> Sure, you can guess as to someone's paternal lineage by the surname,
Yes we can........
> hence for example Azzopardis have had some Maltese somewhere in the
> background, Costas have had some Portuguese, Lopez some Spanish,
> Summerfield some UK and Baglieto some Italian / Genoese. But NO-ONE has
> EVER attempted any disctinction along these or any other ethnic grounds -
> until YOU start bleating on about native and non-native Gibraltarians.
> Shame, that it should be a Janito who introduces the first HINTS of devise
> racism among us!
Really? I take the credit for all that? I never used the term Liverpool rat,
yet Jaimito dared call the likes of you a token native.
> ALL Janitos are equal - and unlike Animal Farm, NONE are more equal than
> others WHATEVER their ancestry.
>
> This has NOTHING TO DO with whether I agree with Jim or not on this or any
> other issue.
Of course the disclaimer. Why do you bother?
Lynx
Think about it.
Ken
Now you're getting personal again, for which thee is no need. My
grandfather's name has nothing to do with who I am now. You will note my
first name begins with a K - a letter reserved in Sp for the prefix KILO-
and nothing else AFAIK. So what?
Not that it's any of your business, I picked Sp up in the same place I
picked Eng up. My children OTOH have not picked up Sp at all.
>>> Instituto Cervante will not be in Gib soon enough.
>>
>> Hope they never arrive.
>
> Sounds to me like you need it, how else will you socialise and discuss
> yesterday's football match and things of that ilk?
I'll do it as I already do among my peers - in Eng, which we all understand
and are more fluent in than ever we will be in Sp. IF I was inclined to
improve my Sp, I might well welcome the IC. OTOH as I am not iclined to do
so, from my perspective the IC in Gib is a waste of premises better employed
by any one of myriad other organisations.
K
Ken
I have the capacity to speak Sp - I know sufficient of the language. I CAN
speak Sp, though there is no demand for it in this part of the world, and
even when i am where there is, I prefer not to use it.
K
Ken
>> ancestry - until you just now with this invented term.
>
> My invention? Are you telling me Gib's just discovered the term through
> me?
Don't flatter yourself, it's not becoming.
> Really? I take the credit for all that? I never used the term Liverpool
> rat, yet Jaimito dared call the likes of you a token native.
No he didn't. You invented this argument, and have orchestrated its
perpetuation in this thread.
K
Ken
Jim Watt
>You know as much about Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians as Jaimito who
>beleives himself to be a local, even though he doesn't hesitate to call
>locals "token natives".
I did no such thing. I said there were NO 'token natives'
and have stressed that point repeatedly.
Lynx
Your grandfather? Sorry my mistake. I never got personal with you before.
And I certainly never made reference to anyone's family before. But let's
leave it at that shall we?
I do have interesting anecdote. A good friend of mine here in Oz, is of 100%
Italian parentage. He loves and defends all things Italian, though he
defends all things Oz at the same time, as he was brought up here. An all
rounder good chap. One day he was asked how come he was named Glen. He
thought for a moment and then told us his parents purposely gave him a name
that couldn't be translated. I reminded him names should never be
translated. All the same, whenever we met with his, now late, dad Guido the
old guy would always shout us a drink. Great fellow, as is his son my
friend. This friend of mine Glen, like me, is pretty well travelled, well
read and I really can't speak highly enough of him. He's a great and good
friend. I respect him most of all, because he never hid himself behind his
name. Anyone who meets and befriends him, is left in no doubt about his
origins.
My point is that while we are not Spanish, we should not hide or pretend
that we do not know about the language. Nothing more than that.
> Not that it's any of your business, I picked Sp up in the same place I
> picked Eng up. My children OTOH have not picked up Sp at all.
Your children, like mine, have not picked up Spanish because they live in an
English speaking country. Had they lived in Gib, they would be speaking both
languages like the rest of us. My children do understand the language, but
find it hard to converse in it.
>>>> Instituto Cervante will not be in Gib soon enough.
>>>
>>> Hope they never arrive.
>>
>> Sounds to me like you need it, how else will you socialise and discuss
>> yesterday's football match and things of that ilk?
>
> I'll do it as I already do among my peers - in Eng, which we all
> understand and are more fluent in than ever we will be in Sp. IF I was
> inclined to improve my Sp, I might well welcome the IC. OTOH as I am not
> iclined to do so, from my perspective the IC in Gib is a waste of premises
> better employed by any one of myriad other organisations.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Amen
Lynx
Never realised how talented I really am.
Lynx
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
My question:
>How many native Gibraltarians are in the Committee of the Conservative
>Party
>in Gibraltar? And why not named the Gibraltar Conservative Party?
Your answer:
a) as many as get elected, there is no requirment for a token native
on committees as far as I know, however, there is at least one.
You're in self denial. Now fuck off.
Jim Watt
De nile is a river in Africa, the 'at least one' refers to
'native Gibraltarians' a term you have invented to discriminate
against those who live in Gibraltar out of choice, rather than
those who were born here but live somewhere else.
And as I have told you repeatedly, where one was born is not
a factor in election to that or most committees, its an accident
of birth. Indeed many Gibraltarians were born in Spain but that
does not make them Spanish, and the Minister for health was born
in Jamaica but he does not have dreadlocks or engage in bob
sleighing. I suppose by your thinking he is not a 'native
Gibraltarian' either.
Ken
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:52:20 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>>news:clqv03164249jisju...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:04:50 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
> . . . and the Minister for health was born
> in Jamaica but he does not have dreadlocks or engage in bob
> sleighing.
I thought Bob sleighing (did I spel it correctly?) was a Pakistani sport!
K
darius
<snip>
> Were you enrolled in a special Spanish
> language school, or did you pick it up like all native Gibraltarians, at
> home.
Please tell me when you were last in Gibraltar? (and some idea of your
age or the generation which you have contact with in Gibraltar.)
You keep making these sweeping statments, absolute in nataure that I'm
affraid are utter bollocks.
You might be interested to know, that Spanish is taught as a second
langauge in schools in Gibraltar!
You seem to argue with people who have lived here continuously (and
continue to live here today) about Gibraltar despite apparently living
on the otherside of the world yourself.
Did you go to school in Gibraltar?
Jim Watt
wrote:
>
>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>news:cq4013pbfdg4rpd6j...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:52:20 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
>>>news:clqv03164249jisju...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 15:04:50 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> . . . and the Minister for health was born
>> in Jamaica but he does not have dreadlocks or engage in bob
>> sleighing.
>
>I thought Bob sleighing (did I spel it correctly?) was a Pakistani sport!
Ah no that is more current and spelt different. Perhaps you missed
the film about them - its hilarious and well worth seeing.
http://www.jamaicans.com/bobsled/
Its a good example to Gibraltar of the value of competing
in international sports.
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:52:20 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
> De nile is a river in Africa, the 'at least one' refers to
> 'native Gibraltarians' a term you have invented to discriminate
> against those who live in Gibraltar out of choice, rather than
> those who were born here but live somewhere else.
There isn't nor was there ever a case of discrimination intended. It was
purely a matter of interest. I had no idea the to be such a sensitive issue.
> And as I have told you repeatedly, where one was born is not
> a factor in election to that or most committees, its an accident
> of birth. Indeed many Gibraltarians were born in Spain but that
> does not make them Spanish, and the Minister for health was born
> in Jamaica but he does not have dreadlocks or engage in bob
> sleighing. I suppose by your thinking he is not a 'native
> Gibraltarian' either.
There's nothing unusual about being born outside your homeland. An Eskimo
born in Africa and raised by an Eskimo family will still be an Eskimo.
Gibraltarians were scattered to the four corners of the globe, only to be
denied passage back home for years after WWII . Banana2 was not the first
but only the last one whose tried to screw the Gibraltarians.
Lynx
> On 1 Apr, 17:45, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>> Were you enrolled in a special Spanish
>> language school, or did you pick it up like all native Gibraltarians, at
>> home.
>
> Please tell me when you were last in Gibraltar? (and some idea of your
> age or the generation which you have contact with in Gibraltar.)
1704
> You keep making these sweeping statments, absolute in nataure that I'm
> affraid are utter bollocks.
Keep your frozen bollocks in Canda, we've got enough here, okay?
> You might be interested to know, that Spanish is taught as a second
> langauge in schools in Gibraltar!
Yes I know. I was first taught Spanish at school in Gib. But don't tell Ken,
he might get all upset about it. He does but doesn't and then does and
doesn't again speak Spanish, you know. He has a phobia about Spanish things.
> You seem to argue with people who have lived here continuously (and
> continue to live here today) about Gibraltar despite apparently living
> on the otherside of the world yourself.
The main people in this ng, all 2 of them, one came to Gib from the UK
(welcome) and thinks he can lecture any Gibraltarian about Gib. I have to
give him credit though, he shows a great deal of enthusiam about all things
to do with Gibraltar. The other person is an expat Gibraltarian residing in
the UK. He has a problem with the term expat, as he beleives it only applies
to UK natives living abroad. His command of Spanish depends on which way the
wind's blowing, Lavente or Poniente.
Me? I'm an all rounder true Gibraltarian who cuts through all the political
crap and gets down to basics.
> Did you go to school in Gibraltar?
Yes. Bishop Fitzgerald, then St Anne's, Lourdes Christian Brothers School,
Tech School. Had to leave for London, as Gib didn't offer much in the way of
professional courses.
Did you know that the bulk of Gibraltarians owe their education to the
Christian Brothers? And all this against the will of the Gibraltarian elite?
Jim Watt
<snip>
>Keep your frozen bollocks in Canda, we've got enough here, okay?
If you learnt how to read headers you would find that Darius
is not in Canada he's in Gibraltar, so knows what he is
talking about ...
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 02:15:33 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Keep your frozen bollocks in Canda, we've got enough here, okay?
>
> If you learnt how to read headers you would find that Darius
> is not in Canada he's in Gibraltar, so knows what he is
> talking about ...
Darius knows what he's talking about, so do you and K. I don't know what I'm
talking about, but when I talk you all group together like a paranoid
version of the three amigos.
In this ng you never know who to believe. K once posted under another name
without declaring himself till much later. Must be the inherent
Machiavellian influence.
Darius once said he was in Canada and used to live somewhere opposite the
Airport terminal.Why use the synonym of a looser? You should call yourself
Alexander the great, then you can both tie your bollocks, or whatever, in a
Gordian knot, and I'll volunteer to cut the frigging knot for you both,
blind folded.
Jim Watt
Wheras thanking you for the offer, on this occasion it will be
declined. You seem to be excessively tired and emotional of
late. I trust you have not been drinking petrol.
darius
> Darius once said he was in Canada and used to live somewhere opposite the
> Airport terminal.Why use the synonym of a looser? You should call yourself
> Alexander the great, then you can both tie your bollocks, or whatever, in a
> Gordian knot, and I'll volunteer to cut the frigging knot for you both,
> blind folded.
Must have been a misunderstanding somewhere - I've occasionally
refered to Canada and other places where making clarifications about
things relating to the position of the Queen etc.
I'm in Gibraltar (and have been 98% of the times I've posted).
darius
> Me? I'm an all rounder true Gibraltarian who cuts through all the political
> crap and gets down to basics.
You don't actually live in Gibraltar though do you?
Lynx
"Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
I don't drink much at all. Your lot drove the natives to drink that stuff,
you know. Seeing you cannot leave the topic of natives alone. It is the
pure, real, natives who turn out to be the friendliest in these parts.
Lynx
Right. Where have you been the 2% of the other times and where do you
originally hail from, how old are you and where did you do your schooling?
>
Lynx
No. I was raised there, left the place many years ago, been back several
times. I'm always defending Gib. It's in this group which I find some
difficulty being a Gibraltarian. Funny thing that.
Ken
>
> "Jim Watt" <jim...@aol.no_way> wrote in message
> news:2ge1131t4nd8pgj50...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 02:15:33 GMT, "Lynx" <t...@nquilo.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>Keep your frozen bollocks in Canda, we've got enough here, okay?
>>
>> If you learnt how to read headers you would find that Darius
>> is not in Canada he's in Gibraltar, so knows what he is
>> talking about ...
>
> Darius knows what he's talking about, so do you and K. I don't know what
> I'm talking about, but when I talk you all group together like a paranoid
> version of the three amigos.
> In this ng you never know who to believe. K once posted under another name
> without declaring himself till much later. Must be the inherent
> Machiavellian influence.
When did I do this? I have no recollections of ever having done so.
K
Ken
Perhaps you cling to your notion of what it is to be a Gibraltarian in a
nostalgic manner, while the Gibraltarian of today might bear some but not
complete resemblance to your memories. Perhaps THAT is where your
difficulties stem from. When you are the sole Gibraltarian among your
Australian friends, no-one is in a position to challenge your notions.
K
Lynx
Hey, I'm the only one in the southern hemisphere, I have to group you all
together.....:)
Lynx
It's about time I was psychoanalysed, 'tenkiu'. Do people still say
'tenkiu'? Of course not. How dare moi!
I do not cling to what it is to be a Gibraltarian, rather, I am who I am. "I
am, I said". I have never traded the essence of being a Gibraltarian. But in
this, I'd like to think, and I'm sure to be right, I'm not alone. So for
anyone who leaves their place of origin their homeland, it must be the same,
albeit in different degrees and assuming different exposures like other
cultures, colloquialisms and sense of values from the countries they're in.
Principally here in Oz our values are the same as in the UK and Gib. But
we're still different in that we're living different experiences,
identities, histories, etc. What remains most common is our memories of the
formative years spent in our place of origin. That you may be a better and
truer representation of what is a Gibraltarian today, maybe, I wouldn't
know. After all it is a matter of perception. But it shouldn't be assumed,
less we make an ass of you and me, that I am as removed from today's Gib as
it has been suggested in this group. Principally all in an effort to deny
that Gibbos do speak Spanish colloquially and fluently.
You may be right, I may be crazy.....You may be wrong, for all I know you
may be right....c'est la vie, mon ami! :))