2nd cousin?????
Brendan E. Putnam
can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a 2nd
cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st cousin
twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked everywhere and
asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're definitely not
the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! -Brendan
Putnam
Vivian Jensen
I'll try, let me use this example:
say your father has a brother and the brother has children too, the brother's children
are your FIRST cousins. If your first cousin has children those children are your FIRST
COUSINS ONCE REMOVED and visa versa. If you have children your children and your first
cousin's children are SECOND COUSINS. It continues like that with cousins equally
removed from the source being first, second, third, etc. cousins and those that are
unequally removed being once, twice, etc removed. Have I made this clear as mud?
Vivian
John T. Cunningham
Brendan E. Putnam wrote:
>
> can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a 2nd
> cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st cousin
> twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked everywhere and
> asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're definitely not
> the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! -Brendan
> Putnam
Brendan
The difference is in the number of generations back to the common
ancestor(s). Cousins (with no removes) have equal number of generations
back to the common ancestor(s). Cousins (with removes) have different
numbers.
So: My first cousin and I have one set of grandparents in common. We
both count two generations back to grandma and grandpa.
My first cousin's daughter and I also have two ancestors in common: Her
great-grandparents are the same people as my grandparents. That makes
it three generations back to the common pair for her, but only two for
me. We're first cousins once removed.
If I had a daughter, she and my first cousin's daughter would both be
three generations from the common pair and would be second cousins.
The daughter of my first cousin's daughter would be one generation
farther down the tree, and she and I would be first cousins twice
removed.
My hypothetical daughter would be second cousin once removed to the
daughter of my first cousin's daughter.
And so on...
There is a chart in most genealogy books which explains these
relationships graphically.
Regards
John
near Venice, Italy
Maire Black
Brendan E. Putnam <uof...@mosquito.com> wrote:
> can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a 2nd
> cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st cousin
> twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked everywhere and
> asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're definitely not
> the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! -Brendan
> Putnam
The number 'cousin' two people are, shows how many generations they are
away from being brother/sister. First cousins are the children of
brothers/sisters. Second cousins are two generations away from being
brothers/sisters, so they are the grandchildren of people who were
brothers/sisters.
'Removed' means that one of the two people we are talking about is
further away from when anyone was brother/sister than the other. The
extra generations are the number of generations 'removed'.
Adam had two children, Bob and Carol. They were brother and sister.
They both had sons, David and Ewan. David and Ewan are first cousins.
David had Fiona, and Ewan had Grace. Fiona and Grace are second
cousins.
Fiona and Ewan are first cousins once removed. (because D and E are
first cousins, and F is one generation extra away from that
relationship). Any 'removed' relationsip is an unequal relationship.
Likewise, David and Grace are first cousins once removed.
Grace has a son Harry, and he and David are first cousins twice removed.
Harry and Fiona are second cousins once removed (because Grace and Fiona
are second cousins). Harry will be Fiona's son's third cousin.
Maire
maire...@zetnet.co.uk
gr...@humboldt1.com
> Vivian Jensen <vi...@SoCA.com> writes:
> Brendan E. Putnam wrote:
> >
> > can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a 2nd
> > cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st cousin
> > twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked everywhere and
> > asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're definitely not
> > the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! -Brendan
> > Putnam
>
>
> say your father has a brother and the brother has children too, the brother's children
> are your FIRST cousins. If your first cousin has children those children are your FIRST
> COUSINS ONCE REMOVED and visa versa. If you have children your children and your first
> cousin's children are SECOND COUSINS. It continues like that with cousins equally
> removed from the source being first, second, third, etc. cousins and those that are
> unequally removed being once, twice, etc removed. Have I made this clear as mud?
>
> Vivian
>
>
>>>>
generations from the starting point, (the first generation are siblings) 2nd cousins being the 3rd generation, etc, the removeds come
into play when the descendents aren't in the same generation, each generation that separates them constitutes one 'removed'.
Hope this helps
M.Ross
Donald Kiel
In <527s7l$7...@home.humboldt1.com> gr...@humboldt1.com writes:
>
>> Vivian Jensen <vi...@SoCA.com> writes:
>> Brendan E. Putnam wrote:
>> >
>> > can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a
2nd
>> > cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st
cousin
>> > twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked
everywhere and
>> > asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're
definitely not
>> > the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks!
-Brendan
Perhaps a diagram will help.
Great Grandparent
/\
/ \
/ \
Grandparent Great Aunt/Uncle
/\ \
/ \ \
/ \ \
Parent Aunt/Uncle Parent's cousin
/\ \ \
/ \ \ \
/ \ \ \
You Sibling 1st cousin 2nd cousin
\ \
\ \
1st cousin, 2nd cousin,
once removed once removed
\ \
\ \
1st cousin, 2nd cousin,
twice removed twice removed
Third cousins have a common great-great grandparent-and not a common
great grandparent, etc, etc. As a previous poster has pointed out,
'removed' has to do with the level below your generation in the tree.
Don Kiel
John J. Armstrong
In article <3244A1...@mosquito.com>,
"Brendan E. Putnam" <uof...@mosquito.com> wrote:
>can anyone tell me the SPECIFIC, accurate difference between a 2nd
>cousin and a first cousin once removed??? (or 3rd cousin & 1st cousin
>twice removed & 2nd cousin once removed) I have looked everywhere and
>asked many, but the farthest i've gotten is that they're definitely not
>the same. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Thanks! -Brendan
>Putnam
Your first cousin once removed is your first cousin's child OR your
parent's first cousin.
Your first cousin twice removed is your first cousin's grandchild OR your
grandparent's first cousin.
Your second cousin is your parent's first cousin's child.
Your second cousin once removed is your second cousin's child OR your
parent's second cousin.
Your second cousin twice removed is your second cousin's grandchild OR your
grandparent's second cousin.
And so the long day wears on. Clever people in times past have published
fiendishly cunning charts explaining all this even unto the third and
fourth (and beyond!) generations.
John Armstrong
Dundee
Scotland
"Indecision is the key to flexibility."
Donald Kiel
In <52905f$p...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> don...@ix.netcom.com(Donald
Kiel) writes:
>Perhaps a diagram will help.
>
> Great Grandparent
> /\
> / \
> / \
> Grandparent Great Aunt/Uncle
> /\ \
> / \ \
> / \ \
> Parent Aunt/Uncle Parent's cousin
> /\ \ \
> / \ \ \
> / \ \ \
> Me Sibling 1st cousin 2nd cousin
> \ \
> \ \
> 1st cousin, 2nd cousin,
> once removed once removed
> \ \
> \ \
> 1st cousin, 2nd cousin,
> twice removed twice removed
>
>
>Third cousins have a common great-great grandparent-and not a common
>great grandparent, etc, etc. As a previous poster has pointed out,
>'removed' has to do with the level below your generation in the tree.
>
>Don Kiel
The diagram above was in answer to an earlier question. It now dawns
on me that the person I have labelled Parent's cousin in the diagram
has a different relationship as well. I am the first cousin, once
removed of that person since I am the child of his/her first cousin.
Now my question is, what is his/her relationship to me? Is the 'first
cousin, once removed' a two way relationship? That is, is he/she also
MY first cousin, once removed? It seems to me I have heard or read
that that is the case. But if so, there is an inconsistency because a
child of that person(my parent's cousin) is my second cousin, but a
child of my first cousin, once removed as labelled on the chart above
is my first cousin, twice removed! So it seems confusing to me that
they should both have the same relationship. Perhaps the solution is
that the two are distinguished by saying in the one case "I am his/her
first cousin, once removed" and in the other that "he/she is my first
cousin, once removed" and the two statements are not equivalent.
Please clarify this for me.
Don Kiel
Wayne League
don...@ix.netcom.com(Donald Kiel) wrote:
>The diagram above was in answer to an earlier question. It now dawns
>on me that the person I have labelled Parent's cousin in the diagram
>has a different relationship as well. I am the first cousin, once
>removed of that person since I am the child of his/her first cousin.
>Now my question is, what is his/her relationship to me? Is the 'first
>cousin, once removed' a two way relationship? That is, is he/she also
>MY first cousin, once removed? It seems to me I have heard or read
>that that is the case. But if so, there is an inconsistency because a
>child of that person(my parent's cousin) is my second cousin, but a
>child of my first cousin, once removed as labelled on the chart above
>is my first cousin, twice removed! So it seems confusing to me that
>they should both have the same relationship. Perhaps the solution is
>that the two are distinguished by saying in the one case "I am his/her
>first cousin, once removed" and in the other that "he/she is my first
>cousin, once removed" and the two statements are not equivalent.
>Please clarify this for me.
>Don Kiel
In the case of your parent's cousin, he is your 1st cousin removed one
generation back from you. Your 1st cousin's child is removed one
generation forward from you. When you say "1st cousin once removed"
it does not specify which direction the 'removed' goes. It is always
the case that one cousin is removed back and the other is removed
forward and it is never specified which one is in the older
generation. So, the child of your 1st cousin once removed could be
your 2nd cousin or he could be your 1st cousin twice removed,
depending on whether you're in the younger or older generation from
your 1st cousin once removed.
Wayne League
dr...@wco.com
> don...@ix.netcom.com(Donald Kiel) wrote:
> In the case of your parent's cousin, he is your 1st cousin removed one
> generation back from you. Your 1st cousin's child is removed one
> generation forward from you. When you say "1st cousin once removed"
> it does not specify which direction the 'removed' goes. It is always
> the case that one cousin is removed back and the other is removed
> forward and it is never specified which one is in the older
> generation. So, the child of your 1st cousin once removed could be
> your 2nd cousin or he could be your 1st cousin twice removed,
> depending on whether you're in the younger or older generation from
> your 1st cousin once removed.
>
> Wayne League
>
>
>>>>
Uhh......I don't think so! You just said that "your 1st cousin once removed
could be......your 1st cousin twice removed."
My mother's (or father's) first cousin is my first cousin once removed. My first cousin's
child is also my first cousin once removed.
My 1st cousin twice removed would be my grandparent's first cousin, or my
1st cousin's grandchild.
Don't quite see how you got 1st cousin twice removed from your 1st cousin once removed.
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Wayne League
dr...@wco.com wrote:
>> don...@ix.netcom.com(Donald Kiel) wrote:
>> In the case of your parent's cousin, he is your 1st cousin removed one
>> generation back from you. Your 1st cousin's child is removed one
>> generation forward from you. When you say "1st cousin once removed"
>> it does not specify which direction the 'removed' goes. It is always
>> the case that one cousin is removed back and the other is removed
>> forward and it is never specified which one is in the older
>> generation. So, the child of your 1st cousin once removed could be
>> your 2nd cousin or he could be your 1st cousin twice removed,
>> depending on whether you're in the younger or older generation from
>> your 1st cousin once removed.
>>
>> Wayne League
>>
>>
>>>>>
>Uhh......I don't think so! You just said that "your 1st cousin once removed
>could be......your 1st cousin twice removed."
Did I say that??? I don't think so.
>My mother's (or father's) first cousin is my first cousin once removed. My first cousin's
>child is also my first cousin once removed.
>My 1st cousin twice removed would be my grandparent's first cousin, or my
>1st cousin's grandchild.
>Don't quite see how you got 1st cousin twice removed from your 1st cousin once removed.
Nope! Better go back and re-read what I said. I said "the CHILD of
your 1st cousin once removed could be . . . . . . your 1st cousin
twice removed." What I said is exactly right.
Narrative explanations of cousin relations are always confusing. It's
always better to make a chart like this where each person is a child
of the person above:
COMMON ANCESTOR
BROTHER SISTER
A D
B E
C F
G
Start with the cousin in the older generation and count back the
generations to the sibling pair. That is the number of the cousin.
Then count forward the additional generations to the other cousin.
That is the times removed. The relationship of A to F above is 1st
cousins twice removed. A and E are 1st cousins once removed
and A and D are 1st cousins.
Wayne League
ke...@globalnet.co.uk
Cousins have grandparents in common (ie different parents but same
grandparents), second cousins have great grandparents in common, third
cousins have great great great grandparents in common.
Removed; My mothers cousin would be my cousin once removed, my
grandmothers cousin would be my cousin twice removed, my grandmothers
second cousin would be my second cousin twice removed.
ke...@globalnet.co.uk
From: ke...@globalnet.co.uk
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:47:41 GMT
--
|Fidonet: ke...@globalnet.co.uk 1:209/10
|Internet: ke...@globalnet.co.uk
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
James Gilbert
-> From: wle...@atl.mindspring.com (Wayne League)
-> Subject: Re: 2nd cousin, revisited
->
-> dr...@wco.com wrote:
->
-> >> don...@ix.netcom.com(Donald Kiel) wrote:
->
-> >> In the case of your parent's cousin, he is your 1st cousin remove
-> >> generation back from you. Your 1st cousin's child is removed one
-> >> generation forward from you. When you say "1st cousin once remov
-> >> it does not specify which direction the 'removed' goes. It is al
-> >> the case that one cousin is removed back and the other is removed
-> >> forward and it is never specified which one is in the older
-> >> generation. So, the child of your 1st cousin once removed could
-> >> your 2nd cousin or he could be your 1st cousin twice removed,
-> >> depending on whether you're in the younger or older generation
-> from >> your 1st cousin once removed.
-> >>
-> >> Wayne League
-> >>
-> >>
-> >>>>>
->
-> >Uhh......I don't think so! You just said that "your 1st cousin once
-> >could be......your 1st cousin twice removed."
->
-> Did I say that??? I don't think so.
->
-> >My mother's (or father's) first cousin is my first cousin once remov
-> rst cousin's
-> >child is also my first cousin once removed.
->
-> >My 1st cousin twice removed would be my grandparent's first cousin,
-> >1st cousin's grandchild.
->
-> >Don't quite see how you got 1st cousin twice removed from your 1st c
-> removed.
->
-> Nope! Better go back and re-read what I said. I said "the CHILD of
-> your 1st cousin once removed could be . . . . . . your 1st cousin
-> twice removed." What I said is exactly right.
->
-> Narrative explanations of cousin relations are always confusing.
-> It's always better to make a chart like this where each person is a
-> child
-> of the person above:
->
-> COMMON ANCESTOR
-> BROTHER SISTER
-> A D
-> B E
-> C F
-> G
->
-> Start with the cousin in the older generation and count back the
-> generations to the sibling pair. That is the number of the cousin.
-> Then count forward the additional generations to the other cousin.
-> That is the times removed. The relationship of A to F above is 1st
-> cousins twice removed. A and E are 1st cousins once removed
-> and A and D are 1st cousins.
->
-> Wayne League
->The chart is the only thing that actually made any sense. Another of
looking at it..
cousins share the same grandparents. (Your uncle's child)
2nd cousins share the same great grandparents...
3rd cousins ..............2nd great grandparents
and so on. The furthest I ever had occasion to use this was when an
8th cousin was discovered my 2nd cousin 2 gens. removed.
-- This does not work with any degrees of removals (1,2,3 etc.)
ke...@globalnet.co.uk
james....@lvcg.org (James Gilbert) wrote:
>->
>-> Nope! Better go back and re-read what I said. I said "the CHILD of
>-> your 1st cousin once removed could be . . . . . . your 1st cousin
>-> twice removed." What I said is exactly right.
>->
>
This can be true, if the child is of a younger generation than you,
but it works both ways as you have already explained, ie my mothers
cousin is my cousin once removed, s/he is to my son, cousin twice
removed, but the child of my mothers cousin who remember is my cousin
once removed is my second cousin. Removed is the same whichever way
you go in generations, ie My mothers cousin is my cousin once removed,
I am their cousin once removed. This means that there are two
possible relationships depending on which cousin you chose, ie the
relationship between me and the child of my cousin once removed is
different to the relationship between my cousin once removed and my
child.
I hope that this makes sense, I have tried to explain as clearly as
possible, but after all this subject can get very complex