BOO Origin!!! (NO SPOILERS)
The Bye
I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
L8Rs...
The Bi
http://members.aol.com/TheBye
Chock full o' HTML 3.0. Time to get out the 'Scape...
Philip Langdale
:
: I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
: salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
: other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
: one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
: Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
: SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
:
Yeah, when Eisen goes off in the shuttle, the eight guys are there and 7
of them salute closed hand and hamill does it open hand. *slap forehead*
Oh well.
Great game, anyway.
--
Copyright (C) 1995 Philip Langdale. All rights reserved. Permission to transmit
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By transmiting this e-mail or making it availible for public access in any way
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terms. Material quoted in this e-mail may be copyrighted by another person. That
copyright is hereby acknowladged. If you have any questions regarding this
copyright please contact Philip Langdale at rog...@singnet.com.sg
Rebellion
>
> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>
>
>L8Rs...
>The Bi
Everyone I know seemed to be commenting on that. To military people it
looks VERY silly. Also when he does it, it looks almost casual ie.
he's almost walking away at the same time he salutes. Why not have him
come to attention before he salutes. I'm surprised with everything
else so well done in the movie that military customs and curtesies
were'nt included. Oh well
Rebellion
Casper
>
> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
They're really playing thier roles. During wartime, salutes and other
protocol aren't as crisp, except for formal ceremonies and/or to
emphasize respect. And this is especially true for air wings, where
differences in rank are less important as to what duties are assigned.
Pilots become more of a family than a strict military sturcture. It's
the same with our current armed forces.
Eternally,
Casper
Craig Lambert
>On 17 Feb 1996 05:25:10 -0500, the...@aol.com (The Bye) wrote:
>
>>
>> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>>
>>
>>L8Rs...
>>The Bi
>Everyone I know seemed to be commenting on that. To military people it
>looks VERY silly. Also when he does it, it looks almost casual ie.
>he's almost walking away at the same time he salutes. Why not have him
>come to attention before he salutes. I'm surprised with everything
>else so well done in the movie that military customs and curtesies
>were'nt included. Oh well
>
>Rebellion
Hey, screw it, this is war and these folks have better things to do.
Let the REMF practice their salutes while they're putting creases in
their uniforms and spit-shining their big ol'boots (why do space
pilots need those stupid boots?). BTW, I predict in space w/zero G
military types will have to come up with another way to signify
respect/submission than snappy salutes. Waving one's arms around for
no good reason will be even stupider in the absence of gravity than it
is here on earth. Of course, w/artificial gravity this doesn't apply,
but I could imagine salutes going out of style in Space Forces, then
being re-introducted to disbelieving groans when artificial gravity
comes into use.
Someone commented on Catscratch's snappy salute: yeah but I noticed
lots of thumb playing peek-a-boo. The way I was taught, the thumb is
parallel to the rest of the fingers, not curled up underneath. I
think Hamill does his salutes just right for his character. Don't
forget he was sent to the doghouse for 10 years by Admiral Tolwyn. He
gives exactly as much salute as is required to stay flying, he knows
most 'military courtesy' is eyecandy for the brass polishers.
Craig Lambert
Mad Baron
> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or
the
>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
As a military person myself, I must agree with you here, TB. The salutes
really cheeze me off every time I see them. Blair really looks like a big
dork when he salutes. Other than this gripe, it's a pretty awesome game.
Maybe Origin needs a military advisor, in which case I'd be happy to offer
my services in this capacity.
Michael
>From: rog...@singnet.com.sg (Philip Langdale)
>Subject: Re: BOO Origin!!! (NO SPOILERS)
>Date: 17 Feb 1996 23:22:33 GMT
>The Bye (the...@aol.com) wrote:
>:
>: I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>: salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>: other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>: one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>: Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>: SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>:
>:
>Yeah, when Eisen goes off in the shuttle, the eight guys are there and 7
>of them salute closed hand and hamill does it open hand. *slap forehead*
>Oh well.
>Great game, anyway.
Hmmm - maybe in the future theyre not so pedantic, besides, when youre
constantly on the lookout for Kilrathi, saluting properly seems kind of stupid.
Mike
*************************************************************************
"I find your lack of faith... disturbing." - Darth Vader, Star Wars
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Admiral Tolwyn, WC4
************************************************************************
Michael McGarvie
EMCG...@cc.curtin.edu.au
Michael
>From: de...@cris.com (Rebellion)
>Subject: Re: BOO Origin!!! (NO SPOILERS)
>On 17 Feb 1996 05:25:10 -0500, the...@aol.com (The Bye) wrote:
>>
>> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>>
>>
>>L8Rs...
>>The Bi
>Everyone I know seemed to be commenting on that. To military people it
>looks VERY silly. Also when he does it, it looks almost casual ie.
>he's almost walking away at the same time he salutes. Why not have him
>come to attention before he salutes. I'm surprised with everything
>else so well done in the movie that military customs and curtesies
>were'nt included. Oh well
>Rebellion
Well he is a colonel, whos going to say: "Hey! You dirty little man! How dare
you salute improperly!" Except for Eisen or Tolwyn that is.
Tony Goodhew
>
>
> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>
>
>L8Rs...
>The Bi
I agree, given that these guys are Navy they should be doing a palm down
salute. As far as I can tell we don't see any real Army guys there so there
really isn't a call for an palm up one.
{Preface remarks with the fact that I'm Australian and our services use
different salutes}
As far as I aware there are no navy/marine units in the world that use an
palm up salute.
Just as an aside, I remember from my time at RMC that the original palm up
salute traces it's origins back to the days when knights would raise their
visiors to look directly into an oppents eyes before combat. The palm down one
comes from the time of Queen Victoria when the ratings in the navy used to get
their hands so cut up and covered with tar that she thought they were
disgusting and told them to turn them away.
TonyG
Andreas Barbiero
>>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>
>protocol aren't as crisp, except for formal ceremonies and/or to
>emphasize respect. And this is especially true for air wings, where
>differences in rank are less important as to what duties are assigned.
>Pilots become more of a family than a strict military sturcture. It's
>the same with our current armed forces.
>
>
> Eternally,
> Casper
Errr... NO.
When a salute is rendered, it should be done correctly. Also, if these guys
are supposed to be a 'navy' then they should not be saluting without a cover
(hat) on. AND unless watchstanding you do not wear a cover indoors.
I flew for the USN for five years.... when you salute, you SALUTE
Sorry, I do not mean to attack anyone here, but things like military
traditions get a total blow-off from hollywood. (For umteen-million dollars
WC4 could be better at these things)
Just take a look at SPACE: Above and Beyond...... a military man's nightmare.
geeesh, get a goddamn haircut. They aren't Marines, barely even have the
military bearing for security guards.
When WILL Hollywood get a clue about the military???
Andreas
Andreas Barbiero
EMCG...@alpha1.curtin.edu.au says...
>
>In article <4g5nvp$d...@lantana.singnet.com.sg> rog...@singnet.com.sg (Philip
Langdale) writes:
>>From: rog...@singnet.com.sg (Philip Langdale)
>
>>:
>>: I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>>: salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>>: other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>>: one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>>: Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>>: SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>>:
>>Yeah, when Eisen goes off in the shuttle, the eight guys are there and 7
>>of them salute closed hand and hamill does it open hand. *slap forehead*
>>Oh well.
>>Great game, anyway.
>
>Hmmm - maybe in the future theyre not so pedantic, besides, when youre
>constantly on the lookout for Kilrathi, saluting properly seems kind of
stupid.
>
>
>
>*************************************************************************
> "I find your lack of faith... disturbing." - Darth Vader, Star Wars
> "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Admiral Tolwyn, WC4
>************************************************************************
> Michael McGarvie
> EMCG...@cc.curtin.edu.au
if you cannot pay attention to detail when it is NOT life threatening, how are
you going to when there are lives on the line?
Andreas
Former Naval Aviator
Gary Hladik
>
> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
According to Origin's Web page, the Spit-n-Polish version of Wing
Commander IV will be available in stores on or about March 15th. All the
sets have been spruced up (white gloves come with the game), uniforms are
impeccable, salutes are snappy, and everyone (including Sosa) wears a
military haircut. French and Prussian -- I mean, German -- versions will be
available approximately a week earlier. There will be not be an Italian
version, for obvious marketing reasons.
Gameplay and missions have been enhanced to challenge the skills and
intellect of today's modern, hi-tech soldier. For example, Mission 13
("Blair Fills Out a Form YX-21-11 in Triplicate") is said to be non-stop,
heart-pounding excitement from start to finish. And I hear Mission 15
("Maniac Procures a Ball-Point Pen") is next to impossible for all but the
most highly trained military personnel.
The SnP version is quite reasonably priced at $39.95 (plus overhead, cost
overruns, spec changes, and profit, which bring the final cost to $1,102.73
per unit).
I've already called to reserve my copy.
Gary
Sean Bradshaw
>
> Errr... NO.
>
> When a salute is rendered, it should be done correctly. Also, if these guys
> are supposed to be a 'navy' then they should not be saluting without a cover
> (hat) on. AND unless watchstanding you do not wear a cover indoors.
>
> I flew for the USN for five years.... when you salute, you SALUTE
>
> Sorry, I do not mean to attack anyone here, but things like military
> traditions get a total blow-off from hollywood. (For umteen-million dollars
> WC4 could be better at these things)
>
> Just take a look at SPACE: Above and Beyond...... a military man's nightmare.
> geeesh, get a goddamn haircut. They aren't Marines, barely even have the
> military bearing for security guards.
>
> When WILL Hollywood get a clue about the military???
>
> Andreas
When I got to see a movie, even if it is a serious portrayal of what
goes on, I could really care less about the specifics of a salute. And I
would have to agree with Vagabond, when you're fighting for your life
everyday, the little protocols get forgotten. If I was going out on a
mission during which I could die, I don't think I'd be very uptight
about my salutes, or my wingman's. And if you're looking for a story
from hollywood, I drect your attention to an up-and-coming release.
Based on a submarine... which I hear are especially nitpicky about the
little things, it stars Kelsey Grammar "Down Periscope." And another
prime example of astute military protocols is Steve Martin's "Sgt.
Bilko." My point being that hollywood isn't particularly concerned with
their salutes, they're concerned with entertainment. And I'm sure Tom
Cruise or Demi Moore didn't stay up nights practicing their salutes for
"A Few Good Men."
I hope I don't get incinerated from this post, I'm just pointing out the
difference between entertainment and military protocol.
Sean
Mark Smith
>On 17 Feb 1996 05:25:10 -0500, the...@aol.com (The Bye) wrote:
>
>>
>> I think someone should give the cast a crash course on military
>>salutes. Either open handed (Ugh, please no), or closed handed. One or the
>>other. Open handed would signify a loss in war, so I don't recommend that
>>one. The only person I've seen give a halfway decent salute in WCIV is
>>Catscratch. Every now and then, Eisen will pull a ok one, but come on.
>>SOMEONE teach Mark Hamill. I will, hell, I'd be GLAD to...
>
>They're really playing thier roles. During wartime, salutes and other
>protocol aren't as crisp, except for formal ceremonies and/or to
>emphasize respect. And this is especially true for air wings, where
>differences in rank are less important as to what duties are assigned.
>Pilots become more of a family than a strict military sturcture. It's
>the same with our current armed forces.
>
>
> Eternally,
> Casper
Is CONFED the NAVY, AIR FORCE or what? I've noticed that Blair is a
Colonel yet he takes a bunch of shit from captains. I've always been
under the impression that Colonels outrank Captains unless this is
different on a Navy vessel. Hell - even Maniac is a Major which would
outrank Eisen and many of the other commanding officers.
Killar
No... the ranks are slightly different, but basically it amounts
to the Air Wing and the Ships Officers have a different Rank Hierarchy.
Also on his own ship a Captain is the highest ranking officer anyway,
unless an Admiral is on board so Blair could be GOD EMPEROR OF ALL
CONFEDERATE PILOTS, and Eisen would still outrank him onboard his ship.
So basically it amounts to a differnet ranking structure, I suppose
that is to avoid confusion on the ship or something.
WC Pilots go something lke 2nd Lt, 1st Lt, Captain, Major, Lt. Col, Col
ship's officers ar :Ensign, Lt<jg>, Lt, Lt. Commander, Commander, Captian,
Commedor, Admiral
C. A. Rohn
>Pedantic? These traditions are a critical part of how a military operates,
>if you cannot pay attention to detail when it is NOT life threatening, how are
>you going to when there are lives on the line?
>Andreas
>Former Naval Aviator
This type of attitude is precisely the reason I joined the Air Force
rather than the other branches, despite being offered much larger
enlistment bonuses by both the Navy and Army for the same specialty.
We are taught (at least in my career field) to know the difference
between the two and nothing is more important than doing the mission
the best it can be done.
I agree the salutes could use some work, but a military, at least a US
Air Force intelligence squadron, operates on competence, not
tradition.
C. A. Rohn
Marysville, CA
Philip Langdale
: On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Mark Smith wrote:
:
: > Is CONFED the NAVY, AIR FORCE or what? I've noticed that Blair is a
: > Colonel yet he takes a bunch of shit from captains. I've always been
: > under the impression that Colonels outrank Captains unless this is
: > different on a Navy vessel. Hell - even Maniac is a Major which would
: > outrank Eisen and many of the other commanding officers.
: Hi Mark,
:
: I read the novels and they seem to say that the Terran
: Confederation Navy runs all the cap ships while the Terran Confederation
: Space Force runs all the fighter wings. I don't like this arrangement (I
: prefer a straight traditional Naval organization), but I guess it explains
: things.
:
: So the Navy crews running the cap ships have different ranks than
: the fighter wing crews:
:
: Pay Grade Navy Space Force/Confed Marine Corps
: O-1 Ensign 2nd Lieutenant
: O-2 Lieutenant (jg) 1st Lieutenant
: O-3 Lieutenant Captain
: O-4 Lt. Commander Major
: O-5 Commander Lt. Colonel
: O-6 Captain Colonel
: O-7 Commodore Brigadier General
: O-8 Rear Admiral Major General
: O-9 Vice Admiral Lieutenant General
: O-10 Admiral General
: O-11 Fleet Admiral General of the Space Force
:
i think the navy O-11 should be space marshall, (based on wc3 and wc4)
on that basis you would make the space force/marine one field marshall or
just marshall, following the british ranking system. go figure, it's all
kinda messed up.
: In that case, Captain Eisen is the same rank as Colonel Blair--
: Both would be O-6s. Except whenever one is on a Naval Vessel, the ship's
: Captain is always the big hondo in charge, as was the tradition-- For
: example, in the U.S. Navy, submarine captains are O-5s with the rank of
: Commander. When there is a Fleet Admiral aboard, the Commander still
: outranks the Fleet Admiral because it's the Commander's ship. =)
:
: TRH Sends
Thomas Hong
Hi Mark,
In that case, Captain Eisen is the same rank as Colonel Blair--
The Bye
10214...@compuserve.com (C. A. Rohn) writes:
>I agree the salutes could use some work, but a military, at least a US
>Air Force intelligence squadron, operates on competence, not
>tradition.
I agree that a mission requires more that tradition to be successful,
but while on that mission, in the field, or during any combat situation,
you wouldn't salute anyways. IT DOESN'T TAKE THAT LONG to learn how to
freakin salute the right way. So what, they miss their coffee at 3:15 one
afternoon. Big hairy deal... An oh yeah, isn't the Air Force a prep school
for the other branches of the military? ;-) <------ note the smiley
Hey, put that knife down, didn't you see the smiley? ;-)
Dave Aultman
> I read the novels and they seem to say that the Terran
>Confederation Navy runs all the cap ships while the Terran Confederation
>Space Force runs all the fighter wings. I don't like this arrangement (I
>prefer a straight traditional Naval organization), but I guess it explains
>things.
Well, I don't think that's entirely true...been over a year since I
read the WC Novels, but wasn't the main character in Fleet Action
**Commander** Jason "Bear" Bondaresky. Commander making him a "navy"
officer, yet he was a fighter jock/fighter wing commander the first
half of the book before taking command of the ship he was based on
(some funky transport converted to a dash attack carrie).
I'll tick off all the marines out there, but since the US Marine Corps
is a branch of the US Navy (as opposed to it's own Service), it might
be most logical to assume that Confed Forces are most likely
structured like the US Navy/Marine Corps. It explains all the ranks,
explains why you have both Naval and Marine aviators (Colonel Blair,
Commander Bondaresky); it explains why you have non-naval types
operating off a naval vessel (Marine squadrons have operated off of US
Naval vessels).
<Snip>
>O-7 Commodore Brigadier General
Has the navy started using that rank-name again...it was not used for
a period of time. In the very old days, Commodore was not really a
rank, rather it was a designation....Any ranking officer of a
taskforce assigned command of the "fleet" was designated
Commodore...or so CS Forrester proclaims in the Horatio Hornblower
novels (very enjoyable reading for those interested in "wooden ships
and iron men").
<snip>
> In that case, Captain Eisen is the same rank as Colonel Blair--
>Both would be O-6s. Except whenever one is on a Naval Vessel, the ship's
>Captain is always the big hondo in charge, as was the tradition-- For
>example, in the U.S. Navy, submarine captains are O-5s with the rank of
>Commander. When there is a Fleet Admiral aboard, the Commander still
>outranks the Fleet Admiral because it's the Commander's ship. =)
Well, the Commander doesn't really **outrank** the Admiral. The
Commander must follow the orders of the Admiral or face the military
legal consequences. The Admiral would not command the vessel, but he
still outranks the Commander.
Michael Kell
>Is CONFED the NAVY, AIR FORCE or what? I've noticed that Blair is a
>Colonel yet he takes a bunch of shit from captains. I've always been
>under the impression that Colonels outrank Captains unless this is
>different on a Navy vessel. Hell - even Maniac is a Major which would
>outrank Eisen and many of the other commanding officers.
Not so. There is the rank of Captain for the army/air force which is
below Major, and then there is the Captain for the navy. This Captain
is actually equivalent to the rank of Colonel. Check out the WCIII
guide, it lists them all there.
As for Blair taking crap from captains, well, if he's on Eisen's ship,
then he has to. The fringe benifit of being a ship's Captain is that
you run the ship, and all those in it. Even though Blair is technically
the same rank as Eisen, it's Eisen's ship, not Blair's. Now, off-ship
is a different story.
--
Michael Kell
*Standard disclaimers and such*
------------------------------------------------------------
"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the
universe"
- Leonard H. McCoy
------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Aultman
>Just take a look at SPACE: Above and Beyond...... a military man's nightmare.
>geeesh, get a goddamn haircut. They aren't Marines, barely even have the
>military bearing for security guards.
I like Space Above and Beyond, but I agree, all these police and
military shows where they are long haired slobs really irk me too.
Guess we should get lives...<g>