A word on the Salubri and Tremere
JanusShadowshade
the Salubri Antitribu as well as the Tremere Antitribu. Of course WW's number
one rule on the WoD is that nothing is for certain, if you want facts you have
to make them up.
But, going by what WW has prescribed in terms of the Salubri breaks down like
this. The Salubri have been mentioned up and down in WW books, but nothing good
was ever written about them. Of course then there was the Storytellers
companion which gave the powers of Obeah and the standard to page description
on them placing their numbers at 7. The idea was that they should be mysterious
NPC's really... but more likely it was just standard WW lack of creativity to
really develop them of course WW's excuse is that it's "Tremere Propaganda".
Then comes the guide to the Sabbat that introduces the Salubri Antitribu. While
phasing out the Tremere Antitribu, but that only makes sense. After all the
Tremere are all intentionally kept close via near blood bond so it would only
make sense traitors would be killed, look at the Lasombra, that's what they do.
So in the Guide.. the Salubri are given a different discipline, Valeren, the
power of a fighter as opposed to a healer. So any few remaining Tremere
Antitribu would be quickly dispatched.
Then comes the Salubri clan book, for the Dark Ages. This actually makes a more
stable vision of the Salubri, showing that there were healers and warriors. It
also just calls the discipline Valeren, with two paths; healer and warrior.
(gee a discipline with paths... sound familiar?)
So going in reverse order in which the books were put out, it's easy to see
just how the Salubri got into the Sabbat and why the Tremere were ousted. The
Salubri were hunted down, but most went into hiding or Torpor, and now back
with a vengeance. Some of the Salubri Antitribu might have been around before
Saulot got offed but aren't talking, and there are more then likely quite a few
independents out there of both paths.
But when you get right down to the nitty gritty, it won't matter a bit, hell
most of the Tremere aren't even going to make it to Gehenna, so Tremere
Antitribu aren't really that important anyway hunted by their own clan or the
Salubri.
Short answer to this large conspiracy? WW is just lazy when it comes to
developing the game aspects.
~Janus
Self appointed Salubri authority
BA
>the Salubri Antitribu as well as the Tremere Antitribu. Of course WW's number
>one rule on the WoD is that nothing is for certain, if you want facts you
>have
>to make them up.
Five or six years ago, maybe. Perhaps you'd care to join us in the year 2000.
The number one rule is "if you don't like it, change it."
>But, going by what WW has prescribed in terms of the Salubri breaks down like
>this. The Salubri have been mentioned up and down in WW books, but nothing
>good
>was ever written about them.
Which definition of "good" are you using here?
Are you complaining about a lack of material on them? The original write up for
the Salubri in the first edition Players Guide (back in 1991) presented a group
with exactly seven members. Seven members all of the same generation who never
embrace until they are ready to die, at which point their new childe kills
them. Seven members who are unable to hang out with any other vampire without a
blood hunt being called upon the entire group. Seven vampires out of about
40,000 Kindred.
In other words, not only are the Salubri almost completely unusable as player
characters, they barely rank as a footnote when it comes to describing
modern-day vampires. They were included in the original Players Guide as a
historical curiosity to help flesh out the game's back story, and to give
greater detail on the origins of the Tremere.
Or do you mean "nothing good" as in "it makes them look bad and evil"?
This is, of course, very false. Since their first appearance in the original
Players Guide, the Salubri have always been presented as unfairly maligned
martyrs. But, ever since the publication of the first edition World of Darkness
sourcebook (nine long years ago), we've seen hints that something more is
there. That perhaps Saulot was not the saint some believed him to be. In the
past four or so years, these hints have evolved into a major thread of
Vampire's metaplot. Clanbook Tremere, The Dark Ages Companion, Keepers of the
World, Clanbook Baali, A World of Darkness 2nd ed, The Transylvania Chronicles,
Clanbook Salubri, Keepers of the Word, Kindred of the East, the KotE Companion,
Children of the Night, the Storytellers Companion, the Guide to the Camarilla,
the Guide to the Sabbat. All of these books contain hints and information
leading to something in the very near future.
>Of course then there was the Storytellers
>companion which gave the powers of Obeah and the standard to page description
>on them placing their numbers at 7.
No, actually the Storytellers Companion made the idea that there were only
seven Salubri sound like a myth.
>The idea was that they should be mysterious
>NPC's really...
I've already explained what the Salubri were in the original Players Guide. In
the ST Companion, their entry (along with the entry in the Dark Ages Companion)
sets the stage for the Salubri antitribu as well as the Wu-Zao.
>but more likely it was just standard WW lack of creativity
Interesting that you claim this so-called lack of creativity to be a standard
practice, yet offer no evidence to back it up.
>to
>really develop them of course WW's excuse is that it's "Tremere Propaganda".
Or perhaps the original concept was simply so unusable as a PC concept, and the
writer did all that could be done without invalidating previously published
material (and yes, that is something that is taken into account when writing
Revised Edition material).
>Then comes the guide to the Sabbat that introduces the Salubri Antitribu.
>While
>phasing out the Tremere Antitribu,
The Tremere antitribu were "phased out" in VRev.
>but that only makes sense. After all the
>Tremere are all intentionally kept close via near blood bond so it would only
>make sense traitors would be killed,
The Tremere antitribu were never blood bonded to anyone. The Vaulderie ritual
makes the standard Tremere weakness impossible. So, instead, the antitribu had
"invisible psychic tattoos" on their foreheads. (Right where the Salubri third
eye is. There were approximately 100 Tremere antitribu. There are now
approximately 100 Salubri antitribu. Discuss among yourselves.)
All current evidence points to the Tremere antitribu being killed by a
thaumaturgic ritual of some sort. Whether this is one of their own rituals
which backfired, some plot on the part of their leader, or the revenge of the
Tremere antediluvian is anyone's guess at this point.
>look at the Lasombra, that's what they do.
The Lasombra have tried to wipe out their antitribu, and may loudly boast of
having done so. But the fact remains that there are still Lasombra antitribu
roaming the World of Darkness, both as independents and as members of the
Camarilla.
(And Lasombra can't keep tabs on each other via Blood Bond either. The
Vaulderie make that impossible.)
>So in the Guide.. the Salubri are given a different discipline, Valeren, the
>power of a fighter as opposed to a healer.
No, they were given a slightly modified version of the warrior's path of
Valeren - a discipline first introduced in the Dark Ages Companion almost two
years before the Guide to the Sabbat was released.
This is also where the two Salubri castes - Warrior and Healer - are first
introduced. (Justin Achilli developed the DA Companion and the Guide to the
Sabbat; did he plan for the Salubri antitribu ahead of time?)
>So any few remaining Tremere
>Antitribu would be quickly dispatched.
They were all killed at one time.
>Then comes the Salubri clan book, for the Dark Ages. This actually makes a
>more
>stable vision of the Salubri, showing that there were healers and warriors.
Again, something that was first introduced in the Dark Ages Companion (back in
1997) and then further expanded upon in the Clanbook.
>It
>also just calls the discipline Valeren, with two paths; healer and warrior.
>(gee a discipline with paths... sound familiar?)
Yes, very familiar. Because it was in the Dark Ages Companion two years
earlier.
>So going in reverse order in which the books were put out, it's easy to see
>just how the Salubri got into the Sabbat and why the Tremere were ousted.
Or you could just follow along in the order that the clues have been revealed.
>The
>Salubri were hunted down, but most went into hiding or Torpor, and now back
>with a vengeance.
Or perhaps they found a very clever way of disguising themselves....
>Some of the Salubri Antitribu might have been around before
>Saulot got offed but aren't talking, and there are more then likely quite a
>few
>independents out there of both paths.
The oldest member of the Salubri antitribu is Adonai, who is 7th Generation.
His age has never been given. Almost all others are less than a decade old.
Most not even half of that.
There are no Salubri in the Camarilla. Aside from the perhaps dozen 'healers' ,
the only other Salubri are the handful of Wu-Zao living in the Middle Kingdom.
>But when you get right down to the nitty gritty, it won't matter a bit, hell
>most of the Tremere aren't even going to make it to Gehenna,
Most vampires, period, aren't going to make to Gehenna.
>so Tremere
>Antitribu aren't really that important anyway hunted by their own clan or the
>Salubri.
Hey, I hear that *all* the Clans are being hunted by other vampires, Cathayans,
Lupines, Mages, Hunters, witchhunters, angry ghosts, government agents, and the
nigh-godlike Antediluvians. I guess by your reasoning, NONE of the Clans matter
then.
>Short answer to this large conspiracy? WW is just lazy when it comes to
>developing the game aspects.
No. Just that you are a presumptuous ass.
The fact that countless clues went several miles over your head =|= laziness on
the part of the various developers and writers.
>~Janus
>Self appointed Salubri authority
Your authority is a joke.
Your theories rest on fallacies.
And your Kung Fu is weak.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them,
but more often they work in absolute darkness."
Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
JanusShadowshade
Good, as in substantial, there isn't any material.
>In other words, not only are the Salubri almost completely unusable as player
>characters, they barely rank as a footnote when it comes to describing
>modern-day vampires.
Good point, in fact I loved it when I made in my own post that they were
nothing but NPCs.
>Interesting that you claim this so-called lack of creativity to be a standard
>practice, yet offer no evidence to back it up.
Evidence up and down the post pal. There is never any real detail. Of course
one could attribute this to just leaving them as mysterious, I'm willing to
grant that...
>Or perhaps the original concept was simply so unusable as a PC concept, and
>the
>writer did all that could be done without invalidating previously published
>material (and yes, that is something that is taken into account when writing
>Revised Edition material).
Oh yes because WW never contradicts itself...
>The Tremere antitribu were "phased out" in VRev.
Are you reading this newsgroup for the first time? It's all over about how the
Tremere moved out then the Salubri came into the Sabbat. I just didn't choose
to quote ever single person, the point of this post was to wrap up all the
previous ones.
>>Tremere are all intentionally kept close via near blood bond so it would
>only
>>make sense traitors would be killed,
>The Tremere antitribu were never blood bonded to anyone
Right that's the point, the rest of the Tremere are partially bonded, better
kill those not leashed right?
>The Lasombra have tried to wipe out their antitribu, and may loudly boast of
>having done so. But the fact remains that there are still Lasombra antitribu
>roaming the World of Darkness, both as independents and as members of the
>Camarilla.
It was an example of a clan trying to kill their antitribu, kill all traitors
it's a good idea. I never said the Lasombra killed them all.
>They were all killed at one time.
Again you are assuming hard core facts. I suppose you believe every line of the
book of Nod is as authoritative as the Bible too.
>Or perhaps they found a very clever way of disguising themselves....
That too.
>The oldest member of the Salubri antitribu is Adonai, who is 7th Generation.
>His age has never been given. Almost all others are less than a decade old.
>Most not even half of that.
>There are no Salubri in the Camarilla. Aside from the perhaps dozen 'healers'
>,
>the only other Salubri are the handful of Wu-Zao living in the Middle
>Kingdom.
Uh no, again you are taking everything only on face. Just because something
hasn't been written doesn't mean it doesn't exsist in the WoD. If you notice I
said "more then likely" because one would assume that, yet you seem to have all
the facts about the WoD and no one else on the UseNet does, funny.
>Most vampires, period, aren't going to make to Gehenna.
Most of the clans are. However, there are some things that point to three clans
falling before Gehenna, Ravnos (already) Tremere, at the hands of Salubri and
"Sheol's army," and the Giovanni by the Wraiths.
>Hey, I hear that *all* the Clans are being hunted by other vampires,
>Cathayans,
>Lupines, Mages, Hunters, witchhunters, angry ghosts, government agents, and
>the
>nigh-godlike Antediluvians. I guess by your reasoning, NONE of the Clans
>matter
>then.
Um, I said Tremere Antitribu, and the are by all accounts going *point*
>No. Just that you are a presumptuous ass.
>
>The fact that countless clues went several miles over your head =|= laziness
>on
>the part of the various developers and writers.
And such elliquant language you use, but then it reflects well on your person.
It's easy to get your point across without being rude.
Brandon Quina
> Five or six years ago, maybe. Perhaps you'd care to join us in the
> year 2000.
>
> The number one rule is "if you don't like it, change it."
I have to disagree; the number one rule is /still/ nothing as certain
-- or at least, as much as it ever was. ;) It was still certain, for
example, that their were 13 major clans in the modern day game. It was
still certain that the Camarilla had seven of those clans, and who those
clans were... :) VRev still has "nothing is certain", even more so
than second edition in fact -- it just also has some things that are
/certain/ that didn't exist before...
The existence of these things no more makes the world certain than the
Players Guide to the Sabbat made the world certain in second edition.
--
Brandon L. Quina (Storyteller; Dalton by Night PBEM)
#WoD-Chat on DALnet; (splitrock.tx.us.dal.net; hebron.in.us.dal.net)
"World of Darkness Discussion and Friendly Chat with Fans"
Mark Manlapas
>approximately 100 Salubri antitribu.
Where did these numbers come from?
I'm just curious... you seem pretty confident in your references to WW material
for your other points. Did these nos. come from one of the WW books, or are
they a personal approximation?
I only ask because my pet theory is that the Salubri Antitribu are diablerie
shadows who've (re)conquered the blood that was taken from them, and these
numbers seem to support that theory.
-------------parliament-of-savages---------------------------------
Interested in Live-Action RP in the NE Pennsylvannia area?
Check out www.adventuring.com/adventuring/savages
Thomas Weinbrenner
>>There were approximately 100 Tremere antitribu. There are now
>>approximately 100 Salubri antitribu.
>
Guide To The Sabbat
p.29 "On the Tremere Antitribu"
"Most curious, I found roughly roughly one hundred pillars of ash ..."
p.73 "Salubri Antitribu"
"It is assumed that fewer than 100 of these vampires exist..."
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
Matthew
> Then comes the guide to the Sabbat that introduces the Salubri
> makes sense. After all the Tremere are all intentionally kept close
> via near blood bond so it would only make sense traitors would be
> the Salubri are given a different discipline, Valeren, the power of a
The Salubri Antis didn't wipe out House Goratrix.
It also made sense for at least one of the damn sappy Salubri's childer
to turn on their mewling self-serving martyrdom Sires and decide to
break all the rule opening up 1000 years of pent up whup-ass on the
warlocks.
> Then comes the Salubri clan book, for the Dark Ages. This actually
> makes a more stable vision of the Salubri, showing that there were
> healers and warriors. It also just calls the discipline Valeren, with
> two paths; healer and warrior. (gee a discipline with paths... sound
> familiar?)
The clan book was any help? First I heard of it. All it was as a
clanbook was a bunch of rehashed stuff from the DA Companion, a really
inappropriate cover, and a whole lot of wishy washiness on the author's
part about the Eye. Oh, and yet another Robin Hood vampire. Did I
mention the twinky and badly thought-out Blooding?
> But when you get right down to the nitty gritty, it won't matter a
> bit, hell most of the Tremere aren't even going to make it to
> Gehenna, so
So you say. Sure they did the stupid thing and jumped into the
deep end and tried to be the big scary, but I think they've got
enough power and influence (and potential) to make it into the
final round of Gehenna. N.B. Their Ante isn't going to wake up and
break a 10K year fast by eating half the clan like a drinking box.
> Short answer to this large conspiracy? WW is just lazy when it comes
> to developing the game aspects.
> ~Janus
> Self appointed Salubri authority
Boy, git back and try learning some, your only going to embarass
yourself.
Tiama'at
Pain, Cruelty and Screams - the United Colours of Ba'al'i
--
Matthew Hickey aka Tiama'at ][ WS/Soc (H) III - Carleton U
matthe...@hotmail.com ][ "Hold On To Nothing
ICQ: 12954569 (Tiama'at) ][ As Fast As You Can" - T.A.
Matthew
>
?!
That you like or what?
>>In other words, not only are the Salubri almost completely unusable
>>as player characters, they barely rank as a footnote when it comes to
>>describing modern-day vampires.
>
>Good point, in fact I loved it when I made in my own post that they
>were nothing but NPCs.
But then, why were they in the Players Guide? There are more modern
day Baali than Salubri.
>Evidence up and down the post pal. There is never any real detail. Of
>course one could attribute this to just leaving them as mysterious,
>I'm willing to grant that...
You're not looking hard enough.
The meatiest bits of Salubri stuff (that I have, not owning much DA
stuff) is in the Dark Ages Companion.
>>Or perhaps the original concept was simply so unusable as a PC
>>concept, and the
>>writer did all that could be done without invalidating previously
>>published material (and yes, that is something that is taken into
>>account when writing Revised Edition material).
>
>Oh yes because WW never contradicts itself...
Okay - you claim to be the expert on the Salubri (you know to back that
claim you'd have to also be a pretty good scholar of the Baali too) and
now trash WW? Kind of like a scholar of jewish history being an anti
-Semite (or just an atheist).
>>The Tremere antitribu were "phased out" in VRev.
>
>Are you reading this newsgroup for the first time? It's all over about
>how the Tremere moved out then the Salubri came into the Sabbat.
Stop taking drugs and posting - it makes you look bad.
The Tremere Antis were phased out. Physical evidence points to a giant
ritual having turned them into saltlicks. Goratrix has been mentioned
as being still alive but transformed. Now I'm sure this isn't Adonai -
Gorrie was a smart cookie and I doubt he'd do a ritual to transform
himself from a 4th gen Tremere to a 7th gen Salubri - that would be
silly.
>>The Tremere antitribu were never blood bonded to anyone
>
>Right that's the point, the rest of the Tremere are partially bonded,
>better kill those not leashed right?
How would you know who's bound and not? There is NOT a Tremere
registry anywhere outside Vienna - and even that one is probably
incomplete (they got pretty scattered during the middle ages).
>>They were all killed at one time.
>
>Again you are assuming hard core facts. I suppose you believe every
>line of the book of Nod is as authoritative as the Bible too.
It says in the objective portions that they were hunted down one by
one. The Salubri never were a large clan and they never gathered in
large numbers - hunting them down one by one is about the only way you
could go about it. This was all of Europe, Africa and the Middle East
we're talking about - not a sock-hunt in a dryer.
>>The oldest member of the Salubri antitribu is Adonai, who is 7th
>>Generation. His age has never been given. Almost all others are less
>>than a decade old. Most not even half of that.
>>There are no Salubri in the Camarilla. Aside from the perhaps dozen
>>'healers' ,
>>the only other Salubri are the handful of Wu-Zao living in the Middle
>>Kingdom.
>
>Uh no, again you are taking everything only on face.
In the Sabbat the oldest/most powerful is Adonai - pretty objective
statement. To do anything else would be a contradiction. If they had
said that the oldest is 'believed' to be Adonai they would have made
enough wiggle room. Plus check your dates again -- the Anti-Salubri
show up a few years ago. According to the letter excerpt in GttS House
Goratrix went poof in 1999.
>>Most vampires, period, aren't going to make to Gehenna.
>
>Most of the clans are. However, there are some things that point to
>three clans falling before Gehenna, Ravnos (already) Tremere, at the
>hands of Salubri and "Sheol's army," and the Giovanni by the Wraiths.
Remember when that prophecy was written - supposedly after the Second
City, meaning that almost everything that we know now was, to those
prophets, the future.
"Harken to the words of the scholar" - listen to the prophets.
1. Death of Brujah by Troile. The children will wear his name but not
his blood. References to time.
2. The Assamite Curse. Bound by magics, chained by magics.
3. The Cappadoician-Giovanni fiasco (at least that's what the author
thought). Lots of evidence about ghosts and afterlives and wraiths.
>And such elliquant language you use, but then it reflects well on your
>person. It's easy to get your point across without being rude.
>
>~Janus
>Self appointed Salubri authority
Please take this off your sig or I will have to show you how stupid
you're acting.
JanusShadowshade
>shadows who've (re)conquered the blood that was taken from them, and these
>numbers seem to support that theory.
Shadows? As in Wraiths? I'm just curious to your theroy, cause of course, all
things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as perhaps vampires that
have been hiding out now striking back against the Tremere?
On a somewhat related subject, but also keeping in mind that, "Nothing is ever
certain," wouldn't it be assumed that there are a quite a few more Salubri out
on their own then we have been led to believe. While I like the idea that some
form of group just came in and killed off the Tremere and becoming Salubri,
someone had to teach them Valeren. Or is Adonai, as top dog in the Salubri
Antitribu, also an Inceptor, and just happend to re-create Valeren?
Lest not forget though, that any vampire learning Valeren/Obeah to level 2
develops the third eye, so it may be that they were other with these not of the
Salubri clan. So perhaps they taught these new Salubri. Or better yet Adonai is
actually of another clan but has been around since before the dark ages where a
Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the Tremere
Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere... poetic justice I'd
say.
~Janus
Self Appointed Salubri Authority
JanusShadowshade
>
>?!
>That you like or what?
No as in there was no substaintial material printed on them like the other
clans. Yes there has been info in spots all over the books about them, but
nothing to compair with the clans.
>But then, why were they in the Players Guide? There are more modern
>day Baali than Salubri.
What's your point? They were in the Players Guide to have a "mysterious"
Salubri pass through at STers Chorn.
>You're not looking hard enough.
>The meatiest bits of Salubri stuff (that I have, not owning much DA
>stuff) is in the Dark Ages Companion.
No I get it, right they are in the DA Companion, but my point was it wasn't
substantial like in the core DA book. If they were ment to be playable right
away then they should have had info that didn't have to be hunted for.
>Okay - you claim to be the expert on the Salubri (you know to back that
>claim you'd have to also be a pretty good scholar of the Baali too) and
>now trash WW? Kind of like a scholar of jewish history being an anti
>-Semite (or just an atheist)
What the hell kind of logical analogy is that?First off, why can an atheist be
an expert on jewish history? Are you telling me that everyone who really knows
Jewish history are only Jews? Doubtful. Beside everyone has gripes on WW, you
don't have to look far to find that, this just happens to be mine.
>Stop taking drugs and posting - it makes you look bad.
>The Tremere Antis were phased out. Physical evidence points to a giant
>ritual having turned them into saltlicks.
Had you read my first post you would have seen me use the term of being phased
out. That was the discussion at the bottem of this group, on Salubri Antitribu
and Tremere Antitribu, everyone was commenting on the big "co-incidence."
>>>The Tremere antitribu were never blood bonded to anyone
>>
>>Right that's the point, the rest of the Tremere are partially bonded,
>>better kill those not leashed right?
>How would you know who's bound and not? There is NOT a Tremere
>registry anywhere outside Vienna - and even that one is probably
>incomplete (they got pretty scattered during the middle ages
Um I'm not the one who claimed who was or wasn't blood bound, if you'll take
notice of the thread. I in this post above meerly responded to his idea of they
not being bonded, yes in my first I mentioned the non-sabbat were, but then
again, that's the idea isn't it?
>>>They were all killed at one time.
>It says in the objective portions that they were hunted down one by
>one. The Salubri never were a large clan and they never gathered in
>large numbers - hunting them down one by one is about the only way you
>could go about it.
Now I seem to be the one getting bashed, but again you'll notice this wasn't my
post either. And it wasn't a refrence to the Salubri, it was about the Tremere
so pay attention or stop bitching at me.
>>>There are no Salubri in the Camarilla. Aside from the perhaps dozen
>>>'healers' ,
>>>the only other Salubri are the handful of Wu-Zao living in the Middle
>>>Kingdom.
>>Uh no, again you are taking everything only on face.
>In the Sabbat the oldest/most powerful is Adonai - pretty objective
>statement. To do anything else would be a contradiction
Well I know I'm safe I wasn't talking about the Sabbat, I was talking about
those not in the Sabbat.
>Please take this off your sig or I will have to show you how stupid
>you're acting.
Ah, as nice as barmor was, both in logic and in words, you attack me, but are
retorting his, posts. If you can't make an arguement without insults, then you
really shouldn't post, cause insults don't make you any more correct.
>Their Ante isn't going to wake up and
>break a 10K year fast by eating half the >clan like a drinking box.
True enough, but phrophsy points to the Salubri bringing down the Usurpers with
the help of "Sheol's army." Then again maybe it's just Saulot controling
Tremere, either way it doesn't look good for Tremere.
>Boy, git back and try learning some, your >only going to embarass
>yourself.
Hardly, in the second post you actually managed to find my quotes, too bad your
retorts didn't seem to conflict with them. If you insist on being so bothersome
about what IS the fact, go to the PowerGaming thread, there you argue ST facts
about RP, rather then theroies and assumptions that are being discussed here.
Webwalker
Account for the 100 pillars of ash with the faces of the Tremere Antitribu
on them, and the silver rings... if the Salubri just took over the bodies
of the Tremere-Anti's, what created the ash pillars?
> ~Janus
> Self Appointed Salubri Authority
Erm... you don't know all that much about them, actually.
--
"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
-- Thomas A. Edison
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
Saulot
an idea of what could be. That's the idea that brandon also
seems to bring up is that, "nothing is certain." Not once in his
post does it say, "the Salubri killed the Tremere." In fact
Janus is replying to someone else's theroy on the Salubri.
Everyone on the Usenet seems to be mistaking ideas for facts.
Just because someone posts an idea about the WoD doesn't mean
they believe that's what happend and you should too.
>> ~Janus
>> Self Appointed Salubri Authority
>
>Erm... you don't know all that much about them, actually.
Not that you have written more then a paragraph, and not quoting
a single thing about the Salubri more then Janus did.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Matthew
>>diablerie shadows who've (re)conquered the blood that was taken from
>>them, and these numbers seem to support that theory.
>
>Shadows? As in Wraiths? I'm just curious to your theroy, cause of
>course, all things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as
>perhaps vampires that have been hiding out now striking back against
>the Tremere?
Go back and re-read the mechanics of Diablerie - sometimes you get a
lot more than just one extra dot of Generation when you swallow
someone's soul.
The current martyr Christ-like Salubri are fucked - mostly because of
this little drawback - they make Sybil out to be a calm, rational
individual (note the singular).
>Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the
>Tremere Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere...
>poetic justice I'd say.
Too comic book-y.
Matthew
>>
>>?!
>>That you like or what?
>
>No as in there was no substaintial material printed on them like the
>other clans. Yes there has been info in spots all over the books about
>them, but nothing to compair with the clans.
Really - I think because there have been bits of them written up in
over a half-dozen books there is MORE written about them than any other
clan - we never see, for instance, what is REALLY going on with the
Setites, or the Toreador.
Just look at it - how many here 'know' all about the Salubri? How much
info just gets dropped as canon-fact? Now, how much is said about the
motivations of the Toreador methusulahs? Or the Gangrel? Or this
Crone creature who shows up time after time and who's descendants are
always rooted out and killed - no questions asked by anyone?
>>But then, why were they in the Players Guide? There are more modern
>>day Baali than Salubri.
>
>What's your point? They were in the Players Guide to have a
>"mysterious" Salubri pass through at STers Chorn.
Then they should have been in the ST Guide, not a player's book - how
many "lost" members of the 7 made their way into games for years after
that secret was revealed?
>>You're not looking hard enough.
>>The meatiest bits of Salubri stuff (that I have, not owning much DA
>>stuff) is in the Dark Ages Companion.
>
>No I get it, right they are in the DA Companion, but my point was it
>wasn't substantial like in the core DA book. If they were ment to be
>playable right away then they should have had info that didn't have to
>be hunted for.
They wre meant to be playable - in the same way the Liabon and the
Lamia are playable - rare (and hence not inthe core book). Just like
Kiaysid and Gargoyles in VRevised.
>Beside everyone has gripes on WW, you
>don't have to look far to find that, this just happens to be mine.
But you claim to be an expert on something they wrote - yet you
discount everything they have printed on the subject as being lies and
deceptions. Now if you are talking strictly from your own Chronicle
point of view then fine, you're right. But if you mean to claim that
you are the sole expert on the Salubri (writ large - ie. all games)
then please lay out what (and why) certain things WW publishes are
factual and which aren't.
>out. That was the discussion at the bottem of this group, on Salubri
>Antitribu and Tremere Antitribu, everyone was commenting on the big
>"co-incidence."
Not much of a coincidence. From a God-level, developer point of view
the Sabbat were overredundant - they had Anti-Assamite viziers, Anti
-Setite hougans, Tzimisce koldunists and House Goratrix - too much
magic, not to mention the small army of infernalist sorcerors that
seemed to be in every pack of published Sabbat. Plus, as the backstory
between the Tzimisce and the Tremere was fleshed out it became
problematic to have Goratrix and Vykos in the same sect, fighting for
the same things. BUT, there would have been hell to pay for a rude and
drastic retroactive reality change, so they were phased out, pawns used
and destroyed as part of the Jyhad metaplot.
>>Their Ante isn't going to wake up and
>>break a 10K year fast by eating half the >clan like a drinking box.
>
>True enough, but phrophsy points to the Salubri bringing down the
>Usurpers with the help of "Sheol's army." Then again maybe it's just
>Saulot controling Tremere, either way it doesn't look good for
>Tremere.
Why, and you have yet to answer this, would a 10K year old semi-divine
being care about bringing down a bunch of sorcerors that he had to KNOW
were coming to diablerize him? He let the council of Ceoris come to
him, he let them destroy his body. Saulot/Zao-Lat was a master of
Valeren - the mastery of the soul in a pure form. Even lesser forms of
this power allow for incredibly powerful feats. Why would he want to
destroy the clan? They wouldn't have been a clan, or even a nuisance,
if he hadn't all but did the work for them.
The Sabbat Salubri were best summed up by one of the quotes relating to
them - they are the result of the festering wound left in the former
clan left too long unattended. The Inconnu, the Tzimisce, these let
them survive, protected them, as some sort of tribute to Saulot. They
never tried to heal the Salubri from their collective pain, so they are
driven mad.
Or they were deliberately allowed to grow into these fearsome, obsessed
warriors. Another move in the Jyhad - but by who? and for what
purpose? Destruction of the Tremere would seem too simple. Distract
the Camarilla? Make the Tzimisce too bold and strike prematurely?
Maybe.
JanusShadowshade
Well since you ask so nicely...
>>>I only ask because my pet theory is that the Salubri Antitribu are
>diablerie
>>>shadows who've (re)conquered the blood that was taken from them, and these
>>>numbers seem to support that theory.
Well that wasn't my theroy, but anothers. I meerly found it interesting.
>
>> Shadows? As in Wraiths? I'm just curious to your theroy, cause of course,
>all
>> things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as perhaps vampires that
>> have been hiding out now striking back against the Tremere?
Well, that's me asking about his theroy.
>> Lest not forget though, that any vampire learning Valeren/Obeah to level 2
>> develops the third eye, so it may be that they were other with these not of
>the
>> Salubri clan. So perhaps they taught these new Salubri. Or better yet
>Adonai is
>> actually of another clan but has been around since before the dark ages
>where a
>> Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the Tremere
>> Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere... poetic justice
>I'd
>> say.
That was another theroy, expanding on his own.
>Account for the 100 pillars of ash with the faces of the Tremere Antitribu
>on them, and the silver rings... if the Salubri just took over the bodies
>of the Tremere-Anti's, what created the ash pillars?
Ideas! They are all ideas, my own personal thoughts on what happend to the
Anti's? No I don't think the Salubri ate the Tremere, there were more then
likely destroyed in their own ritual, maybe a couple survived, maybe the
Tremere hunted them down, maybe Tremere himself killed them. I was only
offering an expansion on the idea of the Salubri "replacing" the Tremere in the
Sabbat, comprable to numbers.
>> ~Janus
>> Self Appointed Salubri Authority
>
>Erm... you don't know all that much about them, actually.
I know more then you obviously, since you seem to insist the WW's books are the
final word to all happenings in the WoD, hell they don't even know, and admit
it. And try to make real arguements instead of just flaming people on the
Usenet.
~Janus
"Self-Appointed" Salubri Authority
JanusShadowshade
already between Matt and myself on ICQ, there still might be others discussion
here on the Net. So I will reply to this message to tie up some ends.
>Really - I think because there have been bits of them written up in
>over a half-dozen books there is MORE written about them than any other
>clan - we never see, for instance, what is REALLY going on with the
>Setites, or the Toreador.
If someone would like to go through all the books and count up the lines I'd be
intersted, but it was also pointed out that the clan book didn't even add
anything newer then in the DA companion.
>Then they should have been in the ST Guide, not a player's book - how
>many "lost" members of the 7 made their way into games for years after
>that secret was revealed?
Yes in the beginning, but then brought about again in the Storytellers
Companion. First allowing newer people to read about them, but also depositing
them in their proper place. Also we should all draw a line between canon and
all the different Chrons. being run. Sure these 7 members might have shown up
in many games. Because they have shown up in more then 7 doesn't mean WW
accepted that, but then again, "nothing is certain."
>They wre meant to be playable - in the same way the Liabon and the
>Lamia are playable - rare (and hence not inthe core book). Just like
>Kiaysid and Gargoyles in VRevised.
Perhaps, anyone else have thoughts on this? I would tend to agree, but I was
saying more then likely as Rare NPCs much like an elder showing up in a game
with neonates.
>But you claim to be an expert on something they wrote - yet you
>discount everything they have printed on the subject as being lies and
>deceptions.
I've never ment to imply that what they have done is a lie, but Canon doesn't =
fact. It's a guideline for playing the game which is why they say you can
change the rules. Few things that while being Canon can be stated as fact in
the WoD. "Death is certain, life is not."
>Why, and you have yet to answer this, would a 10K year old semi-divine
>being care about bringing down a bunch of sorcerors that he had to KNOW
>were coming to diablerize him?
Ok I'll answer this, but I can only answer as far as the information that has
been released. Why he did he really allow it? No one knows. Of course reading
the beginnings of the Baali, wouldn't point to Saulot being divine, in fact
some of the things he did were down right nasty. (if one believes these books)
Some might say Golconda allowed him to know that it was his time. His own
un-life wasn't as important as those of his childer, that's why he would bring
down Tremere.
One could ask "why did he let them kill him?" He knew they were coming for him,
wouldn't one so divine use his power to save those of his line or himself? Well
the point is really moot, but if someone has some constructive thoughts on them
please post. I do mean constructive thoughts, as in, "well maybe Saulot thought
X" as opposed to, "what are you stupid Saulot thought X, how could you think
that?"
As for Sabbat Salubri, yup, a festering wound, but any way to look at them,
they are but a splinter of the true Salubri... but then again, what clan is?
~Janus
Self-Appointed Salubri Authority
Alexander Bateman
JanusShadowshade <janussha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000212035401...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> Most of the clans are. However, there are some things that point to three
clans
> falling before Gehenna, Ravnos (already) Tremere, at the hands of Salubri
and
> "Sheol's army," and the Giovanni by the Wraiths.
>
Its just that in Clanbook Giovanni it hints that The harbingers of Skulls
Did it.
(well actually you have to read between a lot of lines to get that
interpretation.)
Alex.
JanusShadowshade
The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan. My own personal guess
is that the Sabbat could fill those shoes.
While Matthew and I differ on my next point it's an idea I've heard. The
passage that it comes from he thinks is about the Assamites being bound by
magics. I however think that it's a refrence to the Tremere and in the same
passage it makes this refrence to Sheol's army. So I think it's the Sabbat
taking in the Salubri and the fall of the Tremere.
~Janus
You know the drill
Angela Christine
>Account for the 100 pillars of ash with the faces of the Tremere Antitribu
>on them, and the silver rings... if the Salubri just took over the bodies
>of the Tremere-Anti's, what created the ash pillars?
Ash sculpting, it's a new Toreador art form. :)
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It looks like he scrawled it with a combination
of his own blood and his own intestines."
"Who would do that?"
"Someone who needed a pen very badly."
-Red Dwarf
Alexander Bateman
> >Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
>
> The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan. My own personal
guess
> is that the Sabbat could fill those shoes.
Ah, my mother always told me to pay attention in all those Demonology
Lessons.
I don't suppose you have Any ideas on the origin of the Word?
> While Matthew and I differ on my next point it's an idea I've heard. The
> passage that it comes from he thinks is about the Assamites being bound by
> magics. I however think that it's a refrence to the Tremere and in the
same
> passage it makes this refrence to Sheol's army. So I think it's the Sabbat
> taking in the Salubri and the fall of the Tremere.
Thanks, But where does this passage Come from?
Alex.
Matthew
>The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan. My own
>personal guess is that the Sabbat could fill those shoes.
Sheol is more like Hell/Demons in less a specific thing like Satan. In
that circumstance it can mean any malevolent (to the observer)
inhuman/monsterous force. Prophets are never exactly as clear as day
about certain images.
"Prophets don't know everything" - Kiira, Dark Crystal.
>You know the drill
Liked the screwdriver better.
Matthew
>>
>> The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan. My own
>> personal
>guess
>> is that the Sabbat could fill those shoes.
>
>Lessons.
>I don't suppose you have Any ideas on the origin of the Word?
Hebrew.
>Thanks, But where does this passage Come from?
Second prophet, book 8 - Prophecies, _Erciyes Fragments_.
JanusShadowshade
I'll give you the screwdriver....
Janus
Webwalker
> In article <884bag$3cv$1...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, Webwalker
> <webw...@peekaboospam.icu> wrote:
> JanusShadowshade:
>>> Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the
>>> Tremere Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere...
>>> poetic justice I'd say.
Take a look at this comment. ""re-create" the Salubri from fallen
Tremere..." Exactly *what* does this mean?
>>Account for the 100 pillars of ash with the faces of the
> Tremere Antitribu
>>on them, and the silver rings... if the Salubri just took over
> the bodies
>>of the Tremere-Anti's, what created the ash pillars?
>>
> What are you talking about Web?
The ash pillars that are most likely the remains of the Tremere-
Antitribus.
> Janus only seems to be offering
> an idea of what could be. That's the idea that brandon also
> seems to bring up is that, "nothing is certain."
In VRev, the Tremer-Anti's are dead. That is certain. How they died is
not certain. Why they died is not certain. When they died is not
certain.
> Not once in his
> post does it say, "the Salubri killed the Tremere." In fact
> Janus is replying to someone else's theroy on the Salubri.
> Everyone on the Usenet seems to be mistaking ideas for facts.
Where am I mistaking ideas for facts? I don't see how his idea is
possible, from what has been printed in cannon and what he's posted. From
what he's posted, it sounds like he believes the Salubri took the places
of the fallen Tremere. Physically; I understand "re-create" as being of
the same idea of the idea that diablarized souls taking over the body of
their killers, taking not only their bodies, but their places. Hence the
"fallen Tremere"; they're dead = they're fallen. Poetic justice it would
be, I agree, but I don't see how it's possible.
My *personal* belief is that Salout is pulling the strings here.
From inside of Tremere. He hid one of his Warrior Salubri from the
Tremere witch-hunt, then sent a group of Tremere into the Sabbat (look at
the Tremere weakness; a mark on the forehead. Something like an invisible
3rd eye, no?) to keep his hand in all available pies. After a while, he
decided that it was time to bring his warriors back, knowing full well
that the warrior (Adonais) would have created a brood by now. A small
brood, but a brood nonetheless. And he decided that they would be best
suited in the Sabbat, as the propaganda against the Salubri in the
Camarilla would work against him. So Salout made it possible for the
Tremere Anti's to be killed, making the Sabbat hungry for new members...
> Just because someone posts an idea about the WoD doesn't mean
> they believe that's what happend and you should too.
I've posted my own theories on this, which are not anything like the
cannon. See above.
>>> ~Janus
>>> Self Appointed Salubri Authority
>>
>>Erm... you don't know all that much about them, actually.
> Not that you have written more then a paragraph, and not quoting
> a single thing about the Salubri more then Janus did.
I'm not claiming to be "Self Appointed Salubri Authority".
Mark Manlapas
>>course, all things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as
>>perhaps vampires that have been hiding out now striking back against
>>the Tremere?
>
>lot more than just one extra dot of Generation when you swallow
>someone's soul.
This is precisely what I mean...
In my version of the WoD it tumbles out like this: Way way back, in the time
between the split of Tremere and Tremere Anti, during the massive 'Tremere kill
all the Salubri ' hunts, the group that is to become the Tremere ANtritribu
decide to let the healer salubri alone and go after the warrior bloodline.
In this they succeed, and diablerize some number of them. Fast forward severla
hundred years of Salubri shades riding around inside the heads of these
Tremere. It is the presence of these shades that creates the Tremere Antitribu
'Curse' which is in fact a physical sign of the power of the shades which the
Cam Tremere take credit for, depsite their lack of involvement in the signs.
The shades whisper to their corporeal masters "We hate the Tremere as you do"
"Let us out" "Destroy the Tremere" "Burn their blood" etc etc.
This drives the Sabbat Tremere nuts, and opens the door to infernalism, which
is studied as a possible route to removing the shades.
Eventually, the head of the Sabbat Tremere gives in to his shade, the most
powerful of the warior salubri, the shade of a Kindred named Adonai. He gathers
all of the remaining Sabbat Tremere that particpated in the old hunts, and
these dozen or so Sabbat Tremere begin a ritual.
Next they summon all the Sabbat Tremere to a deep chantry in Mexico. The ritual
is performed. Now you have about a dozen or twenty Salubri Antitribu. All of
them are members of Adonai's Brood, and they beign to reconstitute the Clan.
THey have been reconstituting for only a year or so, hence the Generation
restrictions on PC Sal Antis.
Why ally with the Sabbat? Why not go out on your own? The precedent is set by
the Harbinger of SKulls, old Cappadocians wishing revenge on the Giovanni, and
seeing the Sabbat as the modern sect most likely to be able to help. Perhaps
Adonai even knew one of the Cappadocians-now-Harbingers and there was a reunion
of sorts...
Kristopher/EOS
>
>> Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
>
> The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan.
"Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
But being wrong never stopped Christianity before...or any
other religion for that matter.
Kristopher/EOS
Kristopher/EOS
>
>>> Account for the 100 pillars of ash with the faces of the
>>> Tremere Antitribu on them, and the silver rings... if the
>>> Salubri just took over the bodies of the Tremere-Anti's,
>>>> what created the ash pillars?
>>
>> What are you talking about Web?
>
> The ash pillars that are most likely the remains of the
> Tremere-Antitribus.
And everyone is falling for it.
>> Janus only seems to be offering an idea of what could be.
>> That's the idea that brandon also seems to bring up is
>> that, "nothing is certain."
>
> In VRev, the Tremer-Anti's are dead. That is certain. How
> they died is not certain. Why they died is not certain.
> When they died is not certain.
Yep, they're all dead alright, no way they could be pulling
a fast one.
>> Not once in his post does it say, "the Salubri killed the
>> Tremere." In fact Janus is replying to someone else's
>> theory on the Salubri. Everyone on the Usenet seems to be
>> mistaking ideas for facts.
>
> Where am I mistaking ideas for facts? I don't see how his
> idea is possible, from what has been printed in cannon and
> what he's posted. From what he's posted, it sounds like he
> believes the Salubri took the places of the fallen Tremere.
> Physically; I understand "re-create" as being of the same
> idea of the idea that diablarized souls taking over the body
> of their killers, taking not only their bodies, but their
> places. Hence the "fallen Tremere"; they're dead = they're
> fallen. Poetic justice it would be, I agree, but I don't
> see how it's possible.
Magic? Manipulation of the soul? Experts in diablerie?
> My *personal* belief is that Salout is pulling the strings
> here. From inside of Tremere. He hid one of his Warrior
> Salubri from the Tremere witch-hunt, then sent a group of
> Tremere into the Sabbat (look at the Tremere weakness; a
> mark on the forehead. Something like an invisible 3rd eye,
> no?) to keep his hand in all available pies. After a while,
> he decided that it was time to bring his warriors back,
> knowing full well that the warrior (Adonais) would have
> created a brood by now. A small brood, but a brood
> nonetheless. And he decided that they would be best suited
> in the Sabbat, as the propaganda against the Salubri in the
> Camarilla would work against him. So Salout made it possible
> for the Tremere Anti's to be killed, making the Sabbat hungry
> for new members...
Interesting...
Kristopher/EOS
Alexander Bateman
news:38a6c330$0$86...@news.net-link.net...
> JanusShadowshade wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
> >
> > The "translation" that is made of Sheol is roughly Satan.
>
> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
> do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
> misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
Intresting, Do you know anything more about It?
> But being wrong never stopped Christianity before...or any
> other religion for that matter.
Normally it just encourages them ;-)
Alex.
Matthew
>>>Shadows? As in Wraiths? I'm just curious to your theroy, cause of
>>>course, all things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as
>>>perhaps vampires that have been hiding out now striking back against
>>>the Tremere?
>>
>>Go back and re-read the mechanics of Diablerie - sometimes you get a
>>lot more than just one extra dot of Generation when you swallow
>>someone's soul.
>
>This is precisely what I mean...
>In my version of the WoD it tumbles out like this: Way way back, in
>the time between the split of Tremere and Tremere Anti, during the
>massive 'Tremere kill all the Salubri ' hunts, the group that is to
>become the Tremere ANtritribu decide to let the healer salubri alone
>and go after the warrior bloodline.
Somehow I don't see the Tremere-Goratrix split starting because
Goratrix, who was the one who started the whole research into
immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
Another note(OT): I really hate how the Healer/Warrior/Watch split
makes them seem like seperate bloodlines - I would have much preferred
something more like a Iconoclast-Idealist-Independant type ideological
difference.
>This drives the Sabbat Tremere nuts, and opens the door to
>infernalism, which is studied as a possible route to removing the
>shades.
I think lots of bad stereotypes and the need for sledghammer moral
imagery in 2nd Edition had more to do with all the Tremere infernalists.
Matthew
>>>> Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the
>>>> Tremere Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere...
>>>> poetic justice I'd say.
>
>Take a look at this comment. ""re-create" the Salubri from fallen
>Tremere..." Exactly *what* does this mean?
It would mean the return of the "clan changing" ritual that was
retroactively written out with the Ahrimanes.
Unless they used the only other way to switch clans[1], and those three-
eyed beserkers have a phobia about religious symbols....
[1] Trivia time!
>The ash pillars that are most likely the remains of the Tremere-
>Antitribus.
They were saltlicks! - you know, for the kids (too much Great Big Sea
playing in head).
> My *personal* belief is that Salout is pulling the strings here.
>From inside of Tremere. He hid one of his Warrior Salubri from the
>Tremere witch-hunt, then sent a group of Tremere into the Sabbat (look
But why? Something that I have never understood - he already has
complete control over the clan Tremere - why create a bloodline that
wants to destroy it? What purpose does that serve in the Jyhad?
Think enemies, think third party fake-outs. Think Tzimisce, or Baali or
Setites.
Della
Alexander Bateman a écrit dans le message
<38a62...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net>...
>>
>Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
>Its just that in Clanbook Giovanni it hints that The harbingers of Skulls
>Did it.
>(well actually you have to read between a lot of lines to get that
>interpretation.)
>
>Alex.
I thinck the Sheol is the Land of Death for Hebrews...
so Sheol's Army may be Wraith
* Della *
"Une autre Voix, dans mon sommeil, s'écrie :
"La Fleur devrait s'ouvrir au ciel chaque Matin."
Mais je m'éveille et un murmure effacé répond :
"La Fleur qui a fleuri une fois meurt à jamais !"
Khayyam, Rubaiyat
Kristopher/EOS
>
> Kristopher/EOS <eosl...@net-link.net> wrote in message
> news:38a6c330$0$86...@news.net-link.net...
>> JanusShadowshade wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
>> do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
>> misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
>
> Intresting, Do you know anything more about It?
Dark and empty place...
Kristopher/EOS
Webwalker
> I can hear you, Webwalker, can you hear me?
>>>>> Salubri taught him Valeren, and then he led an assult against the
>>>>> Tremere Antitribu to "re-create" the Salubri from fallen Tremere...
>>>>> poetic justice I'd say.
>>
>>Take a look at this comment. ""re-create" the Salubri from fallen
>>Tremere..." Exactly *what* does this mean?
> It would mean the return of the "clan changing" ritual that was
> retroactively written out with the Ahrimanes.
> Unless they used the only other way to switch clans[1], and those three-
> eyed beserkers have a phobia about religious symbols....
Hrm?
> [1] Trivia time!
Cut and paste in Clarisworks? Or Adobe? Go Baali?
>>The ash pillars that are most likely the remains of the Tremere-
>>Antitribus.
> They were saltlicks! - you know, for the kids (too much Great Big Sea
> playing in head).
Ah. Shows you just how out of touch those Lasombra are. Should let the
Toreador control the marketing division of the Sabbat.
>> My *personal* belief is that Salout is pulling the strings here.
>>From inside of Tremere. He hid one of his Warrior Salubri from the
>>Tremere witch-hunt, then sent a group of Tremere into the Sabbat (look
> But why? Something that I have never understood - he already has
> complete control over the clan Tremere - why create a bloodline that
> wants to destroy it? What purpose does that serve in the Jyhad?
This assumes that Tremere *has* complete control over his Clan. And since
the Tremere aren't Borg, maybe he doesn't. It's possible S/T knew this,
knew that he would have trouble controlling the entire clan (he probably
had the same kinds of troubles with his original clan) so he created
something to be its enemy.
And with regards to the T-A's, what better reason to unite one
side of the Clan than a group of traitors, joining the scect that holds
the clans greatest enemies, the Tzimisce? It can be a uniting force,
having internal "police" watching out for new (or older) Tremere who might
be looking to leave the clan. Possibly joining the Sabbat...? What
better reason to have spies throughout the clan, keeping a watch on the
members every move?
> Think enemies, think third party fake-outs. Think Tzimisce, or Baali or
> Setites.
The Baali are already Salubri, if CB:Salubri is to be believed. The
Tzimisce vs the Salubri? Nah. That would mean siding with the Tremere.
Kind of against almost everything printed. Setites? What would they gain
by having the Salubri destroyed? Or what would they gain by the creation
of the Tremere?
JanusShadowshade
True enough, oh maybe Saulot doesn't have complete control, an ancient vampire
vs. a turned vampire, quiet a clash of wills. But Saulot would assumedly still
be around in some form... after all the highest printed level of "Obeah" is to
asteraly project a soul forever, think Saulot changed that even a litte?
Project/watch/control? Of course the other idea has been maybe it's not Tremere
he is using but one of his generals.
>The Baali are already Salubri, if CB:Salubri is to be believed
Well and clan book Baali. But they aren't really Salubri, no more then any
Tremere is Salubri, or the Giovanni are Capps. etc... sure they HAVE Saulot's
blood if you believe the hints, but not actually Salubri.
>The
>Tzimisce vs the Salubri? Nah. That would mean siding with the Tremere.
Is this a refrence to Baali=Salubri? If that's the case ever since the Baali
wars all the clans worked together to destroy them. Consdiering what the Baali
are really after everyone always has an interest in getting rid of them...
>Kind of against almost everything printed. Setites? What would they gain
>by having the Salubri destroyed?
The Setites didn't like the Salubri either. The fanatic Salubri were supposedly
against anything remotely infernal, which the real Setites could be seen as.
Short answer, Revenge.
>Or what would they gain by the creation
>of the Tremere?
A whole lotta revenge, kill the Salubri and create pawns.
~Janus
SASA
JanusShadowshade
>immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
Well I think his idea was based on those old Souls returning to haunt them, a
real voice in your head after over a century is a lot more disturbing then just
a conscience.
> I really hate how the Healer/Warrior/Watch split
>makes them seem like seperate bloodlines
I personally don't see the distinctions as bloodlines as much as you seem to.
Between Healer and Warrior is like being a healing monk versus a holy crusader.
As for the Watchers? Psh what have they done? Maybe they are the Sabbat
Salubri, the watchers apparently looked more favorably upon the warriors after
all, and without that pesky third eye they could have hiddin for a long time.
~Janus
SASA
Kish
Matthew wrote in message <8EDA3A09...@news-server.carleton.ca>...
>I can hear you, Mark Manlapas, can you hear me?
>
>>>immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
>>
>>not assume that research=torture. They are not mutually exclusive, but
>>they are not mutually dependent either.
Encouraging Tremere into going ahead with an experiment which he knew risked the
souls of the Council, having two of his own apprentices Embraced by a Tzimisce
and then put through torturous experiments, encouraging Tremere to diablerize
Saulot, betraying a fellow House Tremere member to the Tzimisce for a personal
rivalry...
No, Goratrix isn't that nice.
>>>I think lots of bad stereotypes and the need for sledghammer moral
>>>imagery in 2nd Edition had more to do with all the Tremere
>>>infernalists.
>>
>>This is dismissive thinking, and not conducive to discussion.
>
>True, but it needed to be said. I mean there was one infernalist in
>every damn pack.
One Lasombra, one Assamite /antitribu/--no Tremere /antitribu/ that I saw.
> Hello, that horse isn't going to get any deader - we
>realize that the Sabbat are supposed to be eeevilll,
You do? Funny, I realized the Sabbat was supposed to have a serious infernalism
problem, and probably would appear much less evil to the rest of the world if
all the Infernalists (aka: Disloyal Sabbat or False Sabbat) were gone.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
Angela Christine
>> complete control over the clan Tremere - why create a bloodline that
>> wants to destroy it? What purpose does that serve in the Jyhad?
>
>This assumes that Tremere *has* complete control over his Clan. And since
>the Tremere aren't Borg, maybe he doesn't. It's possible S/T knew this,
>knew that he would have trouble controlling the entire clan (he probably
>had the same kinds of troubles with his original clan) so he created
>something to be its enemy.
Or maybe he's just nuts.
Sharing headspace can't be good for you.
Matthew
>>immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
>
>them, a real voice in your head after over a century is a lot more
>disturbing then just a conscience.
Goratrix ate a Tzimisce, so I don't think that's a factor (if he ate
anyone and didn't just rely on the magics to transform himself
hermetically).
Matthew
>> retroactively written out with the Ahrimanes.
>
>> Unless they used the only other way to switch clans[1], and those
>> three- eyed beserkers have a phobia about religious symbols....
>
>Hrm?
>
>> [1] Trivia time!
>
>Cut and paste in Clarisworks? Or Adobe? Go Baali?
The answer is one of these.
>> But why? Something that I have never understood - he already has
>> complete control over the clan Tremere - why create a bloodline that
>> wants to destroy it? What purpose does that serve in the Jyhad?
>
>This assumes that Tremere *has* complete control over his Clan.
Possibly - but he does enough resources already in place (the secret
police orders, the shunting around of apprentices and Regents) to
control a credible enough part of the clan.
> And with regards to the T-A's, what better reason to unite one
>side of the Clan than a group of traitors, joining the scect that
>holds
Not really. There were already good straw men in the Sabbat - the
Tzmisce (for the older set), the Anti-Tremere (whom the younger bunch
believe the rhetoric that says they're EEEVIILLL), rogue Gargoyles, all
sorts of fun, Setite magi, curse-free Assamites (!). Why make another
one?
>> Think enemies, think third party fake-outs. Think Tzimisce, or
>> Baali or Setites.
>
>The Baali are already Salubri, if CB:Salubri is to be believed.
But they hate their founder (if any of them even remember why the line
has a special place in their heart for the three-eyed freaks) - simple
"you never loved us" revenge/attention kick.
>The
>Tzimisce vs the Salubri? Nah.
Tzimisce made the Salubri anti's would be a better tact.
>Kind of against almost everything printed. Setites? What would they
No, I was talking about who is behind their creation - could the
Serpents be teaching Adonai his tricks? and for what price?
Mark Manlapas
>immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
Why does research into immortality equate to a lack of conscience? Do not
assume that research=torture. They are not mutually exclusive, but they are not
mutually dependent either.
> I really hate how the Healer/Warrior/Watch split
>makes them seem like seperate bloodlines
A curse on WW terminology. I meant to imply a difference based in theory, not
terminology.
>I think lots of bad stereotypes and the need for sledghammer moral
>imagery in 2nd Edition had more to do with all the Tremere infernalists.
This is dismissive thinking, and not conducive to discussion.
-------------parliament-of-savages---------------------------------
JanusShadowshade
>anyone and didn't just rely on the magics to transform himself
>hermetically).
Ok so the soul of the Tzimisce elder then... Or again, maybe it was just
Saulot, after all it wasn't just Tremere who ate Saulot, all 8 did... Tremere
just got the biggest "gulp" so to say...
~Janus
SASA
Matthew
AFAIK no, the Seven stood watch over Tremere - just in case it was a
trap (seeing how easy it was this is not a paranoid assumption).
I'm not saying that Saulot doesn't have any influence over the Council
(he could after all), but that it isn't direct like his will
overwhelming Tremere's.
I'm still unconvinced about Saulot having anything to do with the
Adonai's crusade. It would be too simple and straightforward. It
feels 'right' that Adonai et.al. are a natural and inevitable reaction
to the Salubri still existing, tormented by their thoughts, and given
some third party assistance. It fits the tragedy of the game better,
IMO.
Matthew
>>Somehow I don't see the Tremere-Goratrix split starting because
>>Goratrix, who was the one who started the whole research into
>>immortality, getting a conscience about picking on the Healers.
>
>Why does research into immortality equate to a lack of conscience? Do
>not assume that research=torture. They are not mutually exclusive, but
>they are not mutually dependent either.
You have never seen some of the descriptions of what Goratrix was doing
to those two Tzimisce he caught near Ceoris have you? This is a clan
that used to nab stray Gangrel, Nosferatu and Tzimisce and boil them
down into lobotomized Gargoyles. These are not nice calm dispassionate
research here - its' bloody, inhuman(e) and disturbing to think about.
>> I really hate how the Healer/Warrior/Watch split
>>makes them seem like seperate bloodlines
>
>A curse on WW terminology. I meant to imply a difference based in
>theory, not terminology.
I know, but it's one of (many) Clanbook-inspired pet peeves - see, even
so-called WW suck ups like me have our peeves too, we just don't rail
against the evil corporation because of them.
>>I think lots of bad stereotypes and the need for sledghammer moral
>>imagery in 2nd Edition had more to do with all the Tremere
>>infernalists.
>
>This is dismissive thinking, and not conducive to discussion.
True, but it needed to be said. I mean there was one infernalist in
every damn pack. Hello, that horse isn't going to get any deader - we
realize that the Sabbat are supposed to be eeevilll, enough already,
put that half-charred fetus back into its mother's womb.
JanusShadowshade
>the Seven stood watch over Tremere - just in case it was a
>trap
Perhaps, that's how it's be portrayed, but it's something I've heard... (no
comments needed on all the things people have "heard" at some point)
P.S. all cannon accounts say the third eye was open... Saulot expending a will
power just to freak them all out being eating him? nope doubt it, he was doing
"something" with Valeren...
>I'm not saying that Saulot doesn't have any influence over the Council
>(he could after all)
Yeah I grant that, which is why whom ever he is coercing didn't out right
attack the others...
>I'm still unconvinced about Saulot having anything to do with the
>Adonai's crusade
Me too... as far as him just "poping up" in the Sabbat is concerned. I'm still
gonna put my money on the watchers.
~Janus
SASA
doomie
One of the Baali methusalas name was Sheol;.
Alexander Bateman wrote in message
<38a62...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net>...
>
>JanusShadowshade <janussha...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000212035401...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
>> Most of the clans are. However, there are some things that point to three
>clans
>> falling before Gehenna, Ravnos (already) Tremere, at the hands of Salubri
>and
>> "Sheol's army," and the Giovanni by the Wraiths.
>>
>Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
JanusShadowshade
>One of the Baali methusalas name was Sheol;.
Where did you get that from, I'm just curious. I know there was Shaitan...
Either way that would only re-enforce the idea of it's root meanings of
devil/demons...etc... big shock the Baali having connections to demons right?
At any rate... considering the context of where "Sheol's army" comes from the
interpertation would seem to be a group helping the Salubri and I doubt that it
would be the Baali.
~Janus
SASA
Mark Manlapas
>to those two Tzimisce he caught near Ceoris have you?
Nope. I haven't and I do not intend to. I posted my thought because I was
interested in hearing other's ideas on what it might imply for the _future_ of
the WoD, not for them to be denied because they don't fit with the 'canon'
representation of one character.
I can say it no plainer than this: WW does not write its books vaguely because
they wnat to obscure the 'canon' history. They do it so as not to impinge on
the basic idea that a RPG chronicle belongs to the ST and the Players, not to
White Wolf.
I suppose I was wasting my time. Too many fan boys on the list.
>
>I know, but it's one of (many) Clanbook-inspired pet peeves
Why should the representation bother you? If you don't like it, ignore it.
> Hello, that horse isn't going to get any deader -
You brought up the meta-issues of Infernalism. I mentioned them in passing as
part of a theory, not as the beginning of a 'Why did the Writer of X book
choose to put Y in'.
Forest
> But, going by what WW has prescribed in terms of the Salubri breaks down like
> this. The Salubri have been mentioned up and down in WW books, but nothing good
> was ever written about them. Of course then there was the Storytellers
> companion which gave the powers of Obeah and the standard to page description
> on them placing their numbers at 7. The idea was that they should be mysterious
> NPC's really... but more likely it was just standard WW lack of creativity to
> really develop them of course WW's excuse is that it's "Tremere Propaganda".
I suggest that you read some of the Dark Ages material... of course the
Salubri have a bad name and have been erased because of Tremere
Propaganda. There is no lack of creativity, infact it's a rather
ingenius plot to me. Further in your post and responces you BLAST people
for not assuming, or not developing further things... Maybe White Wolf
wants that to happen?
> Then comes the guide to the Sabbat that introduces the Salubri Antitribu. While
> phasing out the Tremere Antitribu, but that only makes sense. After all the
> Tremere are all intentionally kept close via near blood bond so it would only
> make sense traitors would be killed, look at the Lasombra, that's what they do.
> So in the Guide.. the Salubri are given a different discipline, Valeren, the
> power of a fighter as opposed to a healer. So any few remaining Tremere
> Antitribu would be quickly dispatched.
Yeah, White Wolf gave Salubri Antitribu Valeren just to kill off the
remaining Tremere Antitribu, slick. Fact of the matter is that ALL of
the Tremere Antitribu died at the same time in Mexico, unless the
Storyteller says otherwise.
> Then comes the Salubri clan book, for the Dark Ages. This actually makes a more
> stable vision of the Salubri, showing that there were healers and warriors. It
> also just calls the discipline Valeren, with two paths; healer and warrior.
> (gee a discipline with paths... sound familiar?)
Gee, didn't you know that the Salubri and Valeren was treated in the
Dark Ages Companion, long before Revised was released? Valeren, as well
as Warrior and Healer Salubri predates Revised. Do your homework a bit
better before appointing your self an authority.
Matthew
>>doing to those two Tzimisce he caught near Ceoris have you?
>
>Nope. I haven't and I do not intend to. I posted my thought because I
>was interested in hearing other's ideas on what it might imply for the
>_future_ of the WoD, not for them to be denied because they don't fit
>with the 'canon' representation of one character.
There is a difference between printing new information from a fresh
angle and making a drastic change of opinion - like for instance Vykos
liking the teletubbies or Moncada converting to Islam.
>I suppose I was wasting my time. Too many fan boys on the list.
When one is arguing from a strictly canon detail, one remains to canon
information - theories are nice and very useful, but like in academics,
the theory has to be based on something tangeable - not just "because
it would be cool".
>>I know, but it's one of (many) Clanbook-inspired pet peeves
>
>Why should the representation bother you? If you don't like it, ignore
>it.
I do in my games, and I don't harp on it constantly, but when
discussing a piece of information it is usually customary in academics
to also discuss any drawbacks in the material as well in order to give
a better context.
>> Hello, that horse isn't going to get any deader -
>
>You brought up the meta-issues of Infernalism. I mentioned them in
>passing as part of a theory, not as the beginning of a 'Why did the
>Writer of X book choose to put Y in'.
The comment was aimed at 2nd edition's portrayal of the Sabbat (which
has been changed). You really need to talk to someone about this
martyr-persecution complex... unless you are a Salubri.
Matthew
>>One of the Baali methusalas name was Sheol;.
>
>Where did you get that from, I'm just curious. I know there was
>Shaitan... Either way that would only re-enforce the idea of it's root
>meanings of devil/demons...etc... big shock the Baali having
>connections to demons right?
Unless doomie's confusing something that happened in their game for
published details I'd say this isn't true. There has been no baali
named Sheol - methusalah or otherwise.
Adamus
<matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote:
>They were saltlicks!
Nope, not salt, ash pillars. Read the sidebar in the Guide to
the Sabbat again.
Adamus
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
JanusShadowshade
>for not assuming, or not developing further things..
Flame people?... no not really, I was making a point that canon doesn't say,
"This is what happend" or "This is how the clan works, who's alive, what they
do, etc"
>Maybe White Wolf
>wants that to happen?
Now you seem to be mixing issues, I griped that WW never did anything too
definitive yes. The core of the arguement was actually, that the Salubri were
scatter about and slowly developed... but even now with all the info. on them
scattered about, it doesn't seem to give me the same sence of what they are
about. Sure they put out CB: Salubri... but for the DA. When it comes down too
it, what i really want them to say is just what we've been discussing in the
thread, are there indedpendant Salubri still out there warrior or healer? Cause
those damned watchers are...
~Janus
SASA
Tina
> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld.
Okay, where'd you get *that* info? I've never heard of a Jewish
afterworld.
Tina
Matthew
>>When one is arguing from a strictly canon detail, one remains to
>>canon information - theories are nice and very useful, but like in
>>academics, the theory has to be based on something tangeable - not
>>just "because it would be cool".
>
>This is not an argument, and I disagree that discussions of story
>ideas should be tretaed like academics..
Well, that your position. But I think an academic framework (like the
ones used in English Lit courses) is actually useful - it gives ground
rules, basic structures of discussion - a common language if you will,
that can assist the arguments we have here (ie. help them smooth over
conversational tones before they erupt into 1500+ post flame wars).
>There is no better reason for an ST and a group of
>players to change canon than 'because it would be cool'.
Within the group cool. I have my own theories about things, but if I
were to come to this newsgroup and try and say that my p.o.v. is THE
One Truth and use nothing but conjecture and ignore published sources
(our only common ground - since you don't know what I think, nor I you)
the thread would be dimissed (correctly) as a baseless rant.
Dr Nuncheon
JanusShadowshade <janussha...@aol.com> wrote:
>>I only ask because my pet theory is that the Salubri Antitribu are diablerie
>>shadows who've (re)conquered the blood that was taken from them, and these
>>numbers seem to support that theory.
>
>Shadows? As in Wraiths? I'm just curious to your theroy, cause of course, all
>things Salubri interest me. Or do you mean shadows as perhaps vampires that
>have been hiding out now striking back against the Tremere?
I think he means that a bunch of vampires diablerized these Salubri, and
then the Salubri's souls later 'took them over'.
The idea is that when you diablerize someone, you 'eat their soul'...but
what happens when that soul is too powerful to eat? It's certain to have
some effect on you...
J
--
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
VoceNoctum
>then the Salubri's souls later 'took them over'.
>
>The idea is that when you diablerize someone, you 'eat their soul'...but
>what happens when that soul is too powerful to eat? It's certain to have
>some effect on you...
>
I actually had a Gargoyle, who was descended from such a haunted gargoyle.
During the hunts, the sire (don't remember the generational break-down) had
drained a Salubri Warrior when the Tremere in charge was slain.
Later the voice of the Salubri helped the Gargoyle rebellion through him, and
passed through the blood into the others.
Woulda been fun, methinks.
(and yes, he had the spirit mentor merit, but no, he couldn't learn Valeran :-)
Vocenoctum
"WHEN WILL YOU RAGE?"
"Tuesday, 3:23 PM, why?"
jonatha...@hotmail.com
According to www.dictionary.com:
sheol \She"ol\ (sh[=e]"[=o]l), n. [Heb. sh[e^][=o]l.] The place of
departed spirits; Hades; also, the grave.
For thou wilt not leave my soul to sheol. --Ps. xvi. 10. (Rev. Ver.)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jonatha...@hotmail.com
janussha...@aol.com (JanusShadowshade) ranted:
> are there indedpendant Salubri still out there warrior or healer?
I would say; from the descriptions of Obeah revised, Valeran revised
and Dark Ages Valeran Healer/Warrior paths; that the "7" Salubri are
the descendants of the Healers while the Antribu are the descendants
of the Warriors.
> Cause those damned watchers are...
Were neither Healer nor Watchers. Do they still exist now? It is not
clear how many of them there were during the Dark Ages, which path of
Valeran (if any) they used, or even if they still exist. Of course
they could be keeping the Inconnu company ...
JanusShadowshade
>and Dark Ages Valeran Healer/Warrior paths; that the "7" Salubri are
>the descendants of the Healers while the Antribu are the descendants
>of the Warriors.
Perhaps, but the text of recent seems to elude to more Salubri out there. Or I
was asking (albeit retorically) couldn't it "be" possible there are more, just
in Torpor.
>Were neither Healer nor Watchers. Do they still exist now?
Oh hell yes, I'm very convinced the Watchers are out there. Most didn't use
Valeren, according to (c)anon, so they wouldn't have the third eye. What is
more defining of a Salubri then the eye? Nothing, so most should have escaped
the purges. What they are doing? That's one hell of a mystery.
~Janus
SASA
Game Dice
>>
>> Okay, where'd you get *that* info? I've never heard of a Jewish
>> afterworld.
>
>According to www.dictionary.com:
So what impact does this really have on the tread? So it means the army of hell
will find, the "cast out, and abandoned" as opposed to the army's of the devil.
It's a world of difference I tell ya!
GameDice
Alexander Bateman
news:38a9b43f.12050359@news-server...
>
> >> >> Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
> >> >
> >>
> >> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
> >> do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
> >> misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
> >
> >Intresting, Do you know anything more about It?
>
> try here.
>
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl.htm
>
Thanks,
Well after reading this I have to say it's both interesting and ties in with
"Wraith" very well. However it Does seem to rule out the whole Satan/Baali
thing and mean The army of Sheol is Something from the Dark Umbra.
Alex.
Who just knew that all that Roster Sacrifice and Praying to the Loas would
pay off.
JanusShadowshade
>> >> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
>> >> do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
>> >> misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
>However it Does seem to rule out the whole Satan/Baali
>thing and mean The army of Sheol is Something from the Dark Umbra.
Wow really? The religious page mentioned the Umbra? I'll be damned... But
seriously, it's still translates into, hell/demon/darkness of some sort, and
remember the passage is a phrophsy, which means it's not literal, or not to be
taken as such. So hell's army could be, as I've said, the Sabbat, they would
fit such a telling of the future, from the perspective of the past after all.
Or it could be the Baali, I'm not really sure how you ruled them out so easily.
Hell the true Baali are into something much worse the just the infernal...
>I have to say it's both interesting and ties in with
>"Wraith" very well.
Hmmm Wraith? Perhaps, weren't we just discussing Saulot's soul as some Wraith
mechanic, good soul vs. bad? Sounds like the tie in to Sheol's army is still
something close.
~Janus
SASA
Alexander Bateman
news:886p60$af3$1...@front4.grolier.fr...
>
> Alexander Bateman a écrit dans le message
> <38a62...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net>...
>
> >>
> >Anyone got any Idea what "Sheol's Army" Is.
> >Did it.
> >(well actually you have to read between a lot of lines to get that
> >interpretation.)
> >
> >Alex.
>
>
> so Sheol's Army may be Wraith
Hmm, This still Helps my Pet idea as the Harbingers have just emerged from
the Dark Umbra.
The only problem I have yet to Overcome is Why they Would do it.
Also reading the entire Pillar of Salt and Silver circlet Bit it would seem
that the tremere.A where engaged in a ritual that went Wrong, Rather than
Being Butchered.
So perhaps Somehow Japheth/The Capuchin/Lazarus Made the tremere.A do the
ritual that Created the Portal in which the Harbingers returned in. And
somehow the Death Energies contained in this act wiped out all the
Tremere.A.
The problem with this is that although Children of the Night says this was a
Mighty Ritual which needed to be performed on both sides of the Veil. In
DSotBH (Who Unre supposedly studied with.) there's a level 7? Ritual to do
this very thing. Oh and the Ash path can do it as well. However as this is a
contradiction I might as well pick the side that supports my Theory.
Anyone see any other Problems?
Alex.
Alexander Bateman
>
>
> >> >> "Sheol" is the original Jewish afterworld. Has nothing to
> >> >> do with Satan, unless there's some moronic Christian
> >> >> misconnection floating about; if there is, it's wrong.
>
> >However it Does seem to rule out the whole Satan/Baali
> >thing and mean The army of Sheol is Something from the Dark Umbra.
>
> Wow really? The religious page mentioned the Umbra? I'll be damned... But
> seriously, it's still translates into, hell/demon/darkness of some sort,
and
to be
> taken as such. So hell's army could be, as I've said, the Sabbat, they
would
> fit such a telling of the future, from the perspective of the past after
all.
It actually Portrayed it as a Very depressing Grey place with No aspect of
Judgement, Its an afterlife for all people not the Damned. Therefore not
hell. However your point about Prophesy not being literal is valid.
Still I don't figure the Sabbat really fits although the Black Hand could as
they are certainly Based in the Dark Umbra.
> Or it could be the Baali, I'm not really sure how you ruled them out so
easily.
> Hell the true Baali are into something much worse the just the infernal...
Again Hell just is Not Sheol, Where defiantly looking for a Dark Umbra Tie
in rather than an Infernal.
But your Point is Valid and the Baali may have a connection with the
Malfians
(The Clanbooks to far away for me to Check, and nobody can really say how
the
Malfian/Demon connection works anyway.) so they still could be in the
running, I suppose, although I still reckon there an Outsider.
> >I have to say it's both interesting and ties in with
> >"Wraith" very well.
>
> Hmmm Wraith? Perhaps, weren't we just discussing Saulot's soul as some
Wraith
> mechanic, good soul vs. bad? Sounds like the tie in to Sheol's army is
still
> something close.
Well Cappadocians was Diabalrised his "evil" side got away, so I don't see
why
Saulot should be any different. I still think the parallels between the
Salubri and Cappadocians tie in somehow.
Alex.
Still betting on the Harbingers.
Thomas Weinbrenner
>Well Cappadocians was Diabalrised his "evil" side got away, so I don't
>see why Saulot should be any different.
It wasn't his evil side. Only in this century became Cappadocius a Spectre.
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
Prodigal
"Alexander Bateman" <alexande...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> I still think the parallels between the
> Salubri and Cappadocians tie in somehow.
In ways that are truly eerie.
Buy Transylvania Chronicles IV. Now.
Daoist
Is that spectre as in Wraith? I'm not familiar with Wraith or with the
Cap storyline, can someone out there fill me in on the details?
Also, if Capadocius is a Wraith, is he at least a badass?
>
> --
> Thomas Weinbrenner
--
-daoist
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~daoist
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Saulot
>> Wow really? The religious page mentioned the Umbra? I'll be
damned... But
>> seriously, it's still translates into, hell/demon/darkness of
some sort,
>and
>> remember the passage is a prophesy, which means it's not
literal, or not
>to be
>> taken as such. So hell's army could be, as I've said, the
Sabbat, they
>would
>> fit such a telling of the future, from the perspective of the
past after
>all.
>
>It actually Portrayed it as a Very depressing Grey place with
No aspect of
>Judgement, Its an afterlife for all people not the Damned.
Therefore not
>hell. However your point about Prophesy not being literal is
valid.
>Still I don't figure the Sabbat really fits although the Black
Hand could as
>they are certainly Based in the Dark Umbra.
>
Dark Umbra? No one ever said it was a direct translation
of "afterlife" anyway, the text is mentioning evil. From the
past glimpses of the Sabbat would look fairly damn evil.
>> Hell the true Baali are into something much worse the just
the infernal...
>
>Again Hell just is Not Sheol, Where defiantly looking for a
Dark Umbra Tie
>in rather than an Infernal.
I'm still not sure why it's gotta be Dark Umbra...
>> Hmmm Wraith? Perhaps, weren't we just discussing Saulot's
soul as some
>Wraith
>> mechanic, good soul vs. bad? Sounds like the tie in to
Sheol's army is
>still
>> something close.
>
>Well Cappadocians was Diabalrised his "evil" side got away, so
I don't see
>why
>Saulot should be any different. I still think the parallels
between the
>Salubri and Cappadocians tie in somehow.
All sounds likely... all cousins after all...
Alexander Bateman
news:38B490DC...@iastate.edu...
> Is that spectre as in Wraith? I'm not familiar with Wraith or with the
> Cap storyline, can someone out there fill me in on the details?
Yes, Wraiths have Two Souls Good and Evil, a specter is a wraith dominated
by its Evil Soul.
Basically When Augustus Diabalrized Cappa, due to the interfearence of the
children of Isaac A bit of him escaped and Survived as a Wraith, In 1945 the
5th Great Mailstrom caused by the Blast from Heroshoma and Nagasaki blasts
Cappadocius into Slumber, (the Wraith equivelent of Torpour.) and in 1998 he
re-awakes.
(and of course its More complicated than that, Especialy me saying Good and
Evil is a gross simplification.)
> Also, if Capadocius is a Wraith, is he at least a badass?
They Don't give him Stats, But say he's Fairly Powerful.
Alex.
Alexander Bateman
news:F21D97C14548F885.B8B60A62...@lp.airnews.net...
> > Salubri and Cappadocians tie in somehow.
>
>
> Buy Transylvania Chronicles IV. Now.
I just got it yesterday, Best book I've picked up this Year.
Alex.
Erik Stutzman
> Daoist <dao...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
> news:38B490DC...@iastate.edu...
> > Is that spectre as in Wraith? I'm not familiar with Wraith or with the
> > Cap storyline, can someone out there fill me in on the details?
>
> Yes, Wraiths have Two Souls Good and Evil, a specter is a wraith dominated
> by its Evil Soul.
> Basically When Augustus Diabalrized Cappa, due to the interfearence of the
> children of Isaac A bit of him escaped and Survived as a Wraith, In 1945
the
> 5th Great Mailstrom caused by the Blast from Heroshoma and Nagasaki blasts
> Cappadocius into Slumber, (the Wraith equivelent of Torpour.) and in 1998
he
> re-awakes.
So diablerie no longer means destruction of the soul. I guess that means it
doesn't warrant that automatic Humanity loss any more.
>
> > Also, if Capadocius is a Wraith, is he at least a badass?
>
> They Don't give him Stats, But say he's Fairly Powerful.
Especially since for some bizarro reason vamps keep their inflated stats
after becoming wraiths..
Matthew
>Alexander Bateman <alexande...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:38b66...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net...
>> dominated by its Evil Soul.
>> Basically When Augustus Diabalrized Cappa, due to the interfearence
>> of the children of Isaac A bit of him escaped and Survived as a
>> Wraith, In 1945
>the
>> 5th Great Mailstrom caused by the Blast from Heroshoma and Nagasaki
>> blasts Cappadocius into Slumber, (the Wraith equivelent of Torpour.)
>> and in 1998
>he
>> re-awakes.
>
>So diablerie no longer means destruction of the soul. I guess that
>means it doesn't warrant that automatic Humanity loss any more.
Wow Erik why don't you smoke some more crack while you are at it.
Capp was THE best necromancer of the western world, bar none. It
figures that he could find a way to shed the power (3rd gen blood
strength) from his own personality. Don't you think?
Besides unless your charcaters are slurping such obviously resourceful
creatures then the soul gets sucked along with the Heart's Blood - so
you still get dinged by the Humanity loss. Stop trying to use every
single unique situation to power game your way through life.
Erik Stutzman
Matthew <matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:8EE5A3E9...@news-server.carleton.ca...
> I can hear you, Erik Stutzman, can you hear me?
> >Alexander Bateman <alexande...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:38b66...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net...
> >> Yes, Wraiths have Two Souls Good and Evil, a specter is a wraith
> >> dominated by its Evil Soul.
> >> Basically When Augustus Diabalrized Cappa, due to the interfearence
> >> of the children of Isaac A bit of him escaped and Survived as a
> >> Wraith, In 1945
> >the
> >> 5th Great Mailstrom caused by the Blast from Heroshoma and Nagasaki
> >> blasts Cappadocius into Slumber, (the Wraith equivelent of Torpour.)
> >> and in 1998
> >he
> >> re-awakes.
> >
> >So diablerie no longer means destruction of the soul. I guess that
> >means it doesn't warrant that automatic Humanity loss any more.
>
> Wow Erik why don't you smoke some more crack while you are at it.
I can't, Achilli used it all (presumably when he wrote his
"all non-techno music sucks" tirade).
>
> Capp was THE best necromancer of the western world, bar none. It
> figures that he could find a way to shed the power (3rd gen blood
> strength) from his own personality. Don't you think?
Odd, I don't recall reading anything about the Capps being necromancers. Was
there some reason that he didn't pass ANY of his alleged knowledge to ANY of
his brats? Hell, according to the DA book Mortis is a recent Discipline
(which suggests to me that the clan had only recently figured out how to
deal with the effects of death).
>
> Besides unless your charcaters are slurping such obviously resourceful
> creatures then the soul gets sucked along with the Heart's Blood - so
> you still get dinged by the Humanity loss. Stop trying to use every
> single unique situation to power game your way through life.
I will as soon as WW stops breaking its own rules anytime they think of
something "kewl".
Thomas Weinbrenner
>
>Matthew <matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8EE5A3E9...@news-server.carleton.ca...
>>
>> figures that he could find a way to shed the power (3rd gen blood
>> strength) from his own personality. Don't you think?
>
>Odd, I don't recall reading anything about the Capps being necromancers. Was
>there some reason that he didn't pass ANY of his alleged knowledge to ANY of
>his brats? Hell, according to the DA book Mortis is a recent Discipline
>(which suggests to me that the clan had only recently figured out how to
>deal with the effects of death).
Necromancy is a new Discipline in the Dark Ages, but if don't rember
anything about Mortis being only recently developed. There are already
Level 8 powers, so that's unlikely.
Being a necromancer isn't the same as knowing Necromancy. They were the
Clan of Death long before the Giovanni showed up! They have certainly
made some necromantic experiments before.
IMO Japhet and Lazarus were the result of a similar experiment, leading
to a divided soul with Japhet having the Wraith part and Lazarus having
the Shadow. (After Giovanni Chronicles III they are reunited)
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
Brendan T. Moran
Erik Stutzman wrote:
> Alexander Bateman <alexande...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:38b66...@news2.cluster1.telinco.net...
> > Daoist <dao...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
> > news:38B490DC...@iastate.edu...
> > > Is that spectre as in Wraith? I'm not familiar with Wraith or with the
> > > Cap storyline, can someone out there fill me in on the details?
> >
> > Yes, Wraiths have Two Souls Good and Evil, a specter is a wraith dominated
> > by its Evil Soul.
> > Basically When Augustus Diabalrized Cappa, due to the interfearence of the
> > children of Isaac A bit of him escaped and Survived as a Wraith, In 1945
> the
> > 5th Great Mailstrom caused by the Blast from Heroshoma and Nagasaki blasts
> > Cappadocius into Slumber, (the Wraith equivelent of Torpour.) and in 1998
> he
> > re-awakes.
>
> So diablerie no longer means destruction of the soul. I guess that means it
> doesn't warrant that automatic Humanity loss any more.
Uncle Augie never finished the job. Cappadocius was never diablerized. See,
there was this bird that got in the way....
I'm not sure I remember the specifics. I think the last drop of his blood
splattered on a dove which was brought to the scene for some ritual reason,
which promptly took off with Cappadocius' soul, and was killed by the player
characters (or Marianna if they dropped the ball) so Capp's spirit could
escape, thereby marking your neonate shmuck for the rest of his unlife as the
guy who killed the bird with Cappadocius' soul in it and thereby pissed off the
head of one of the clans beyond all reason. It's all in GC I.
There's also some weirdness in CB: Giovanni and CB: Cappadocian with a jar of
Capp's blood that Japheth set aside, which is supposed to be very important,
though I'm not sure what difference that's supposed to make since it was taken
out a few centuries beforehand and can't reasonably be expected to have his
soul. unless, as is likely, Antediluvian blood does weird shit.
David Scott Tait
> Uncle Augie never finished the job. Cappadocius was never diablerized. See,
> there was this bird that got in the way....
>
> I'm not sure I remember the specifics. I think the last drop of his blood
> splattered on a dove which was brought to the scene for some ritual reason,
> which promptly took off with Cappadocius' soul, and was killed by the player
> characters (or Marianna if they dropped the ball) so Capp's spirit could
> escape, thereby marking your neonate shmuck for the rest of his unlife as the
> guy who killed the bird with Cappadocius' soul in it and thereby pissed off the
> head of one of the clans beyond all reason. It's all in GC I.
>
> There's also some weirdness in CB: Giovanni and CB: Cappadocian with a jar of
> Capp's blood that Japheth set aside, which is supposed to be very important,
> though I'm not sure what difference that's supposed to make since it was taken
> out a few centuries beforehand and can't reasonably be expected to have his
> soul. unless, as is likely, Antediluvian blood does weird shit.
The dove was supposed to have Cappadocius' blood spilled on it so that it
could catch his soul. However, either the PC's or some hapless Giovanni
spill some other blood on it and it breaks the ritual. Cappadocius' soul
then flits off, up in to the heavens (or the shadowlands).
The true vessel is rumoured by the Capuchin and the Baron Samedi to be the
last drops of Cappadocius' blood - according to CB: Giovanni.
According to DACB: Cappadocian, Japheth and Constancia stored the last bit
of Augustus Giovanni's mortal blood in an earthenwear jar (very similar in
description to the "True Vessel"). If Japeth survived in the canonical
WoD, or some other ritual allowed him re-meld with Lazarus (see GC3), or
whatever that allowed Lazarus to know what happened at the diablerie of
Cappadocius (if he wasn't actually Japeheth and hence wasn't there to die,
or not), then he would know of the ritual to trap Cappadocius's soul in
the dove with the Cappadocius blood dripped on it. Presumably
Japeth/Lazarus/Capuchin could easil convince stupid Augustus that the last
remnants of Cappadocius' blood is where the soul went. Grab the
essentially harmless Augustus' blood pot and lie your pants off to get
Necromancy in a trade - then lose the pot. Grab your kids out of the
shadowlands, join the Sabbat, chib the Giovanni for being stupid and
greedy.
There's some weird shit going down with Lazarus, Japheth and the Capuchin
- but I sure as hell don't know who's who.
Dave