Bastet: Khan and Simba
T. Goldman
I looked through the Bastet book and one thing that I just cannot
understand is how the two truly "big cats" the lion and the tiger are not
stronger than the other breeds. Sure they might not be as fast or
whatever but the fact that in feline form a tiger gets the same bonus to
strength as a puma is ridiculous. A tiger ways on average about 300-400
pounds more. I thought it was hilarious when I read the Pumonca's opinion
about the Khan and it said not to mess with them, when according to the
stats they've given a Pumonca could probably thrash a Khan. I mean it
gets the same strength bonus, a better dex bonus and a better stamina
bonus in crinos form.
Oh well, just me ranting I guess
BTomlin101
i had a similier thought, I've always thought the Great Cats esp the
Lions and Tigers were a bit bigger and stronger than wolves, and yet the
garou are stronger in their Crinis form, but other than that, I think
given that most Bastet had as good or better dexterity than the garou,
they should either have Kalindo or a bastet version there of, my own
faverite tribe, the swara with a bonus of +4, with Kalindo could kick any
get butt, this would seem natural to me, esp the Asian Khan who most have
had a few dealing with Stargazers(who did have some sort of association
with the Akashic Brotherhood, read the early history of the A-B book and
tell me that the beast men donsound awefully like certian stargazers.,
anyway i degress, whatever else, both Simba and Khan do have fairly
formeable gifts
Joshua Dyal
Thus spoke "T. Goldman" <ad...@u.washington.edu>:
I definately agree (although I haven't seen the Bastet book yet, just
the Werewolf Players Guide) The Khan and the Simba ought to be just
about the baddest creatures in the WoD, stronger than any other
shapeshifter except the Gurahl, and probably faster and more agile
than the Garou(although not as high stamina). This is just going on
the comparison of lions and tigers with wolves, and it seems to be
fairly obvious, but White Wolf chooses to interpret it differently.
Maybe this is one of those occasions they keep talking about when we
should modify the rules so they make sense to the players.
Joshua Dyal
j-d...@tamu.edu
T. Goldman
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Joshua Dyal wrote:
> I definately agree (although I haven't seen the Bastet book yet, just
> the Werewolf Players Guide) The Khan and the Simba ought to be just
> about the baddest creatures in the WoD, stronger than any other
> shapeshifter except the Gurahl, and probably faster and more agile
> than the Garou(although not as high stamina). This is just going on
> the comparison of lions and tigers with wolves, and it seems to be
> fairly obvious, but White Wolf chooses to interpret it differently.
> Maybe this is one of those occasions they keep talking about when we
> should modify the rules so they make sense to the players.
>
> Joshua Dyal
> j-d...@tamu.edu
As far as the werewolves being stronger than the bastet, I don't really
have a problem with that. After all they are supposed to be fulfilling
different roles for ole gaia. However I do wish that the cats were
consistent within in themselves. My main gripe is that a puma just isn't
as strong as a tiger or a lion.
That's all i have to say.
Tristan
Ian Turner
BTomlin101 wrote:
> i had a similier thought, I've always thought the Great Cats esp the
> Lions and Tigers were a bit bigger and stronger than wolves, and yet
> the garou are stronger in their Crinis form,
Having raised Lions and Tigers (no Bears, oh my) and wrestled
with all sorts of critters, I think that the real problem is that WW
made the Garou godlike in Crinos and had no desire to prepetuate their
mistake further by making the Gurahl, Mokole and Bastet as much stonger
as they should have been. The Werewolves and Wolfmen of legend and
cinema were never 9' tall and able to flip Volkswagons, I think a +1 or
+2 to Strength is MUCH more in line, freeing up numbers like +4 for the
Khan and Simba who deserve it far more.
But then Werewolves and Wolfmen of legend infected others
with a scatch or bite (much like Vampires), didn't have Spirit Gifts,
step into an Umbra or blow up dams so WW obviously departed fairly
radically from that (keeping only the shapeshifting, moon stuff and
silver vulnerability), just as they did when Vampires were made childer
of Caine with differing powers and Clans.
One could totally rewrite Werewolf and have a completely
different game if one were interested...
Ian Turner.
Berol
"T. Goldman" <ad...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>As far as the werewolves being stronger than the bastet, I don't really
>have a problem with that. After all they are supposed to be fulfilling
>different roles for ole gaia. However I do wish that the cats were
>consistent within in themselves. My main gripe is that a puma just isn't
>as strong as a tiger or a lion.
>That's all i have to say.
>Tristan
Know what your talking about before you shoot of your mouth a puma is
the strongest cat on this earth they have more muscle per square incah
than any other cat. They could crush another cats skull with one blow
so maybe the truth of the matter is that they should be stronger than
the Khan or Simba
Berol-the baddest ass werebear that
was ever named after a pencil
davidr...@mcn.net
He who fights with monsters might take care,
lest he thereby become a monster.
And if you gaze for long into an abyss,
the abyss gazes also into you.
-Friedrich Wilhem Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil"
Berol
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
> Having raised Lions and Tigers (no Bears, oh my) and wrestled
>with all sorts of critters, I think that the real problem is that WW
>made the Garou godlike in Crinos and had no desire to prepetuate their
>mistake further by making the Gurahl, Mokole and Bastet as much stonger
>as they should have been.
Actaully if you look at it the Bastet are the God like ones they have
the best averages between all traits adjusted by shapeshifting
James Lai
davidr...@mcn.net (Berol) wrote:
>Know what your talking about before you shoot of your mouth a puma is
>the strongest cat on this earth they have more muscle per square incah
>than any other cat. They could crush another cats skull with one blow
>so maybe the truth of the matter is that they should be stronger than
>the Khan or Simba
You're talking in relative terms here. Pumas may be very strong for
their size simply do not posess the sheer mass that is a lot of what
gives the Great Cats (Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, etc...) their massive
strength. Sure the Puma is denser, but Muffasa over there outweighs
him by a good three hundred pounds or so.
T. Goldman
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Berol wrote:
> Know what your talking about before you shoot of your mouth a puma is
> the strongest cat on this earth they have more muscle per square incah
> than any other cat. They could crush another cats skull with one blow
> so maybe the truth of the matter is that they should be stronger than
> the Khan or Simba
>
>
>
> Berol-the baddest ass werebear that
> was ever named after a pencil
> davidr...@mcn.net
>
>
I myself am probably stronger per inch weighing in at 155lbs and being
able to bench about 230lbs than a guy twice my weight and only being able
to bench 375lbs but that doesn't mean I can kick his ass! Know what your
talking about before you shoot your mouth off.
Tristan
T. Goldman
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to get snotty with my last post. It's just
that what I'm getting at is that while a puma may be the strongest inch
for inch, it just doesn't have nearly as many inches as a lion or a tiger.
Come on, a Siberian tiger can drag a carcass that it would take 12 adult
humans to even move. That's pretty strong and to tell you the truth, no
matter how strong a puma is for its size, I don't think it could move a
carcass that size.
It's all about size. After all someone could say that De La Hoya was the
best boxer pound for pound but that doesn't mean he's gonna step up and
fight the heavyweights. He'd get killed!
Anyway that's what I was trying to get at.
Tristan
D Davis
Joshua Dyal (J-d...@tamu.edu) wrote:
:
: I definately agree (although I haven't seen the Bastet book yet, just
: the Werewolf Players Guide) The Khan and the Simba ought to be just
: about the baddest creatures in the WoD, stronger than any other
: shapeshifter except the Gurahl, and probably faster and more agile
From the history and introduction in the Bastet book and in the
Player's guide, the Bastet were supposed to be the "Eyes of Seline"
while the Garou were supposed to be Gaia's defenders, or "The Warriors of
Luna". So the Bastet aren't supposed to be the "Combat Machines" that
the Garou are.
: than the Garou(although not as high stamina). This is just going on
: the comparison of lions and tigers with wolves, and it seems to be
: fairly obvious, but White Wolf chooses to interpret it differently.
: Maybe this is one of those occasions they keep talking about when we
: should modify the rules so they make sense to the players.
They make sense to me. I think they set up the Bastet to be a
challenge to roleplay, not as another "tribe" of Warriors of the
Apocalypse. Note that for the most part, the Bastet don't seem to be
aware just how much power that the Wyrm has accumulated. They spend more
time searching for "secrets", than they do investigating the Wyrm, much
less fighting it.
: Joshua Dyal
: j-d...@tamu.edu
-- Talyn
All around nice guy
[Down, ego! Down!]
dld...@u.cc.utah.edu or D.D...@m.cc.utah.edu
http://www.cc.utah.edu/~dld2a50/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote of the day:
He who gains a victory over other men is strong, but he who
gains a victory over himself is all-powerful
-- Lao-Tze Tung
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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T. Goldman
On 8 Feb 1997, D Davis wrote:
>
> From the history and introduction in the Bastet book and in the
> Player's guide, the Bastet were supposed to be the "Eyes of Seline"
> while the Garou were supposed to be Gaia's defenders, or "The Warriors of
> Luna". So the Bastet aren't supposed to be the "Combat Machines" that
> the Garou are.
>
As the original poster of this thread I'd like to say that I agree with
you. My original post was not meant to say that Bastet should be warriors
like the werewolves, but that as far as their physical attributes go that
they should be internally consistent. I stated that Lions and Tigers
were stronger than Pumas and the like which isn't reflected in the rules
and it did cause some arguementation over whether they actually are, which
I guess is natural. However, since all the other Bastet view Khan
in particular as a Asura slaying killing machines, his physical increases
in Crinos and such should exhibit that. He should get like a +4 to
strength or something so he can actually fill that capacity for the Bastet
in both word and deed. As it is he could probably get his ass kicked by a
one of the other breeds which really isn't consistent with the background
they've set up. This is what I originally was trying to get across.
Tristan
> : Joshua Dyal
> : j-d...@tamu.edu
>
Mark A Hagley
In a previous article, itu...@wpine.com (Ian Turner) says:
> But then Werewolves and Wolfmen of legend infected others
>with a scatch or bite (much like Vampires), didn't have Spirit Gifts,
>step into an Umbra or blow up dams so WW obviously departed fairly
>radically from that (keeping only the shapeshifting, moon stuff and
>silver vulnerability),
as an aside, that silver stuff is pure hollywood. in folklore, vampires
have problems with silver, not werewolves.
--
i need something to put it's hands on me... + .
give me stronger poison and then stronger. . +
+ icarus.
Mike Bruner
Mark A Hagley wrote:
>
> In a previous article, itu...@wpine.com (Ian Turner) says:
>
> > But then Werewolves and Wolfmen of legend infected others
> >with a scatch or bite (much like Vampires), didn't have Spirit Gifts,
> >step into an Umbra or blow up dams so WW obviously departed fairly
> >radically from that (keeping only the shapeshifting, moon stuff and
> >silver vulnerability),
>
> as an aside, that silver stuff is pure hollywood. in folklore, vampires
> have problems with silver, not werewolves.
I thought I heard the whole silver thing got started because crosses
were made of silver and of course superstitious people stretched this to
make the metal itself special. Interestingly enough, in my college
classes we recently got into a discussion about fictional werewolves and
apparantly during the Dark Ages quite a few people were burned for being
werewolves; there's too much to go into for a Usenet message but the
level of superstition was incredible. Judging by the fear and hate
people had for wolves, I can see how White Wolf could make it in WOD the
result of the Delirium; there are and have been a lot of blind
destructive attempts to kill off wolves.
--
Mike Bruner
mbr...@knox.edu
"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
"But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and
Juliet is AAAHHHHHHH THE SUN!!!!!" *FOOM!*
-- Toreador Theatre
Ian Turner
Mike Bruner wrote:
> I thought I heard the whole silver thing got started because crosses
> were made of silver and of course superstitious people stretched this
> to make the metal itself special.
I saw a game once where silver was a 'multiplanar' metal and you
couls see the reflections of creatures in mirrors of silver and wound
things of an other worldly nature with weapns of silver (or bind them in
silver chains, etc.) It was an interesting concept. Another was the
gold, the purest and most noble of metals to achemists, could injure and
repels demons, the most impure and ignoble of creatures...
Ian Turner.
Dan Robson
In article <5dmi3m$n...@infoserver.bgsu.edu>, Mark A Hagley
<hm...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> writes
>as an aside, that silver stuff is pure hollywood. in folklore, vampires
>have problems with silver, not werewolves.
have a weakness for silver and in some not. In the same way that for
some myths the werewolf was a man that turned into a wolf at the full
moon whereas for others he turned into a half man half beast creature.
Silver tends to be a general weapon against the "things that go bump in
the night," inc. vamps and weres.
The Dark Jester
AKA
Sammael - Chief of the Satans
Angel of Death (sent to get Moses' soul, don'tcha know)
Prince of Demons and Magicians
Chief Ruler of the 5th Heaven
Regent of the world
The Great Serpent with 12 wings that draws after him, in his fall,
the solar system
Guardian Angel of Esau
Prince Guardian of Edom
Tempter and seducer of Eve
Father of Caine
The Wrestler with Jacob at Peniel
The satan who tempted David to number Israel
The Severity of God
The Greek God Typhon
The Youngest and most virile of the 72 Princes of Hell
The First of the art critics
"Reports of my existance have been greatly confused"
Michael Fink
In article <hVJwCBA6...@tene.demon.co.uk>, Dan Robson
<Le...@tene.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5dmi3m$n...@infoserver.bgsu.edu>, Mark A Hagley
> <hm...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> writes
> >as an aside, that silver stuff is pure hollywood. in folklore, vampires
> >have problems with silver, not werewolves.
> That kinda depends upon what folklore you look at. In some werewolves
> have a weakness for silver and in some not. In the same way that for
> some myths the werewolf was a man that turned into a wolf at the full
> moon whereas for others he turned into a half man half beast creature.
> Silver tends to be a general weapon against the "things that go bump in
> the night," inc. vamps and weres.
>
> The Dark Jester
>
<lots of title snippage>
True enough...it seems to stem from the folk belief that silver is a
holy metal. The story goes that God awarded silver that status in
recompense for being the currency paid to Judas.
It was for this reason that early European myths about vampires had it
so they could not see themselves in mirrors...back then all decent mirrors
were silvered, and the silver would have nothing to do with the vampire.
It is worth noting that vampires *could* see themselves in a pool of
water, according to the mythology at the time.
The anti-supernatural qualities [which equated to anti-evil in the
Church's view for the most part] of silver spread to other myths,
including werewolves.
What about iron and faeries? I'm guessing, but that seemed to arise
from non-Christian beliefs. Anybody know?
Michael Fink
--
"Silly kitty. Silly, silly kitty."
鬼helly to Omaha, "Omaha the Cat Dancer"
Ian Turner
Michael Fink wrote:
> What about iron and faeries? I'm guessing, but that seemed to arise
> from non-Christian beliefs. Anybody know?
Iron is often associated with Blood and Death, probably because
of the horrible effects it had on armies carrying only bronze... The
various tales one hears about Muramasa katana craving blood and so on
were often attributed to iron by the descendents of men conquered, slain
and / or enslaved because of its power. Even those who weilded it in
those days carried it with reverence as it was winning them wars and
slicing through bronze like a bronze sword would slice through leather.
How the hell this relates to faeries disliking it is beyond me,
although the fae-believers may have been more common amongst those who
got their butts kicked by iron and so the iron-weilders may have felt
that the sily powers that their victims were invoking as reason not to
screw with them were being driven off by the iron.
Could also be a bogus old wives tale, too... It's not like I
was there or anything. :)
Ian Turner.
Dan Robson
In article <mikendee-210...@cnc016108.concentric.net>, Michael
Fink <mike...@concentric.net> writes
> True enough...it seems to stem from the folk belief that silver is a
>holy metal. The story goes that God awarded silver that status in
>recompense for being the currency paid to Judas.
> It was for this reason that early European myths about vampires had it
>so they could not see themselves in mirrors...back then all decent mirrors
>were silvered, and the silver would have nothing to do with the vampire.
>It is worth noting that vampires *could* see themselves in a pool of
>water, according to the mythology at the time.
> The anti-supernatural qualities [which equated to anti-evil in the
>Church's view for the most part] of silver spread to other myths,
>including werewolves.
>from non-Christian beliefs. Anybody know?
>
>
I think...the legends of the faeries, etc generally stem from the
conquerors of a land. For instance the Celts believed that the Old
People (i.e. those small indigenous people of England) who they had
decimated in their expansion westward, were the "Little People." They
had succeeded so much because they had iron weapons whereas the "Old
People" had had only bronze. Similarly when the Saxons rode roughshod
over the Celts, they came to believe that the Celts were fey, not
exactly faerie themselves, but distinctly associated with them. The
abhorence of iron by the faerie stems from Bronze Age culture being
crushed by Iron Age. Take for instance the Tuatha de Dannan, they were
driven from the Isle of the Mighty by iron weilding people.
Ian Turner
Dan Robson wrote:
> I think...the legends of the faeries, etc generally stem from the
> conquerors of a land. For instance the Celts believed that the Old
> People (i.e. those small indigenous people of England) who they had
> decimated in their expansion westward, were the "Little People." They
> had succeeded so much because they had iron weapons whereas the "Old
> People" had had only bronze. Similarly when the Saxons rode roughshod
> over the Celts, they came to believe that the Celts were fey, not
> exactly faerie themselves, but distinctly associated with them. The
> abhorence of iron by the faerie stems from Bronze Age culture being
> crushed by Iron Age. Take for instance the Tuatha de Dannan, they
> were driven from the Isle of the Mighty by iron weilding people.
Cool! I was afraid that I was making that shit up...
Ian Turner.
apollyon
Dan Robson wrote:
>
> In article <mikendee-210...@cnc016108.concentric.net>, Michael
> Fink <mike...@concentric.net> writes
> >from non-Christian beliefs. Anybody know?
> >
> crushed by Iron Age.
>
> AKA
> Sammael - Chief of the Satans
> Angel of Death (sent to get Moses' soul, don'tcha know)
> Prince of Demons and Magicians
> Chief Ruler of the 5th Heaven
> Regent of the world
> The Great Serpent with 12 wings that draws after him, in his fall,
> the solar system
> Guardian Angel of Esau
> Prince Guardian of Edom
> Tempter and seducer of Eve
> Father of Caine
> The Wrestler with Jacob at Peniel
> The satan who tempted David to number Israel
> The Severity of God
> The Greek God Typhon
> The Youngest and most virile of the 72 Princes of Hell
> The First of the art critics
>
> "Reports of my existance have been greatly confused"
I do hereby corroborate the above statement. The Celts greatly feared
those who used iron weapons against them because of the incredible
superiority of iron to bronze. Iron swords would cleave through shields
and shatter celtic bronze weapons like ice. Those who brought iron
against the Celts slew them in numbers.
BTW: Clever signature.
apollyon
ylm...@worldnet.att.net
Dan Robson <Le...@tene.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <5dmi3m$n...@infoserver.bgsu.edu>, Mark A Hagley
><hm...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> writes
>>as an aside, that silver stuff is pure hollywood. in folklore, vampires
>>have problems with silver, not werewolves.
>That kinda depends upon what folklore you look at. In some werewolves
>have a weakness for silver and in some not. In the same way that for
>some myths the werewolf was a man that turned into a wolf at the full
>moon whereas for others he turned into a half man half beast creature.
>Silver tends to be a general weapon against the "things that go bump in
>the night," inc. vamps and weres.
>
this is very few folklore in which a were-wolf goes half & half. that['s
mostly a Hollywood thing.
don't know about folklore, but in real life, silver doesn't bother vamps
or weres.
ylm...@worldnet.att.net
i believe it was the iron's connection to the earth that bound faeries.
Dan Robson
In article <330F3F...@adnc.com>, apollyon <apol...@adnc.com> writes
>I do hereby corroborate the above statement. The Celts greatly feared
>those who used iron weapons against them because of the incredible
>superiority of iron to bronze. Iron swords would cleave through shields
>and shatter celtic bronze weapons like ice. Those who brought iron
>against the Celts slew them in numbers.
thing I've learnt from Usenet, its _never_ to be definite about
anything...though of course I secretly think I'm right <raspberry>
I think...that the Celts conquered a Bronze Age culture who don't seem
to have a name, except for the "Old People" or such like. These were
the culture that built Stonehenge...okay it was really the Outpost of
the 5th Arradian Battle Group in this sector during the 3rd Interstellar
War...<gurgle gurgle blibble blibble>
>
>BTW: Clever signature.
Merci beaucoup, I've got a whole host of them <g>
>
>
>apollyon
Dan Robson
In article <5enk29$r...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>,
ylm...@worldnet.att.net writes
>this is very few folklore in which a were-wolf goes half & half. that['s
>mostly a Hollywood thing.
>
>
>don't know about folklore, but in real life, silver doesn't bother vamps
>or weres.
>
Dan Robson
In article <5ennot$gdv$1...@despair.u-net.com>, R Sutton <becka@malcop.u-
net.com> writes
>Nope the Celts were the Iron Age Culture, it was the pre-celts who
>were bronze (and in some cases stone) age. The Celts invaded Britain
>from Europe some 2,900 years ago. So even they aren't native.
>
>Becka
>
Ahh but then who is native? Even the Pre-Celts had to move there at one
point, and the people before them...right the way back to that day
millenia ago when a bright Cro-Magnon (or what ever) thought, "let's go
for a stroll," and wandered out of East Africa <bg>
he he he
K Kuhn
In article <kIdhFEAp...@tene.demon.co.uk>, Dan Robson
<Le...@tene.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> Weren't the Celts Iron Age? I'm fairly sure they were. If there's one
> thing I've learnt from Usenet, its _never_ to be definite about
> anything...though of course I secretly think I'm right <raspberry>
> I think...that the Celts conquered a Bronze Age culture who don't seem
> to have a name, except for the "Old People" or such like. These were
> the culture that built Stonehenge...okay it was really the Outpost of
> the 5th Arradian Battle Group in this sector during the 3rd Interstellar
> War...<gurgle gurgle blibble blibble>
The Hallstatt culture, according to my book on the Celts, was probably the
first Indo-European group that could be called "Celtic" and it, along with
the La Tene culture that followed it, were iron-working. As to conquering
a Bronze Age culture, are you referring to the ones they found on the
British Isles? Because the Celts also invaded Italy and sacked Rome,
about 370 BC, I think.
<snip>
R Sutton
>I do hereby corroborate the above statement. The Celts greatly feared
>those who used iron weapons against them because of the incredible
>superiority of iron to bronze. Iron swords would cleave through shields
>and shatter celtic bronze weapons like ice. Those who brought iron
>against the Celts slew them in numbers.
>BTW: Clever signature.
Dan Robson
In article <kknolte-2202...@206.20.136.43>, K Kuhn
<kkn...@ecity.net> writes
>
>The Hallstatt culture, according to my book on the Celts, was probably the
>first Indo-European group that could be called "Celtic" and it, along with
>the La Tene culture that followed it, were iron-working. As to conquering
>a Bronze Age culture, are you referring to the ones they found on the
>British Isles? Because the Celts also invaded Italy and sacked Rome,
>about 370 BC, I think.
the Celtic peoples westward, Rome was only a collection of mud huts, (I
think). The Germanic tribes, Visigoths Astrogoths Goths etc, sacked
Rome about 300/400 AD
And I was refering to the British Isles, the "Britons" as it were.
Though that term then becomes synonmous with every succeeding conquered
people of the Isles.
Ta ta everyone, read y'all in a month.
Yes they've finally found me, the nice men in the white coats are going
to make me _all_ better.
K Kuhn
In article <ud+zwAA7...@tene.demon.co.uk>, Dan Robson
<Le...@tene.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >The Hallstatt culture, according to my book on the Celts, was probably the
> >first Indo-European group that could be called "Celtic" and it, along with
> >the La Tene culture that followed it, were iron-working. As to conquering
> >a Bronze Age culture, are you referring to the ones they found on the
> >British Isles? Because the Celts also invaded Italy and sacked Rome,
> >about 370 BC, I think.
> Wasn't it the Romans who conquered the Celts? During the expansion of
> the Celtic peoples westward, Rome was only a collection of mud huts, (I
> think). The Germanic tribes, Visigoths Astrogoths Goths etc, sacked
> Rome about 300/400 AD
> And I was refering to the British Isles, the "Britons" as it were.
> Though that term then becomes synonmous with every succeeding conquered
> people of the Isles.
In the early days of Rome, some Celts (Gauls, actually) went over the Alps
and into Italy - ending up in the Po valley. They fought against the
Etruscans, and took out Rome back in 387 BC. Afterwards, though, the
Romans began expanding their empire, and began defeating most of the Celts
- Julius Caesar defeated the ones in Gaul, then later emperors took over
quite a bit of Britain, although they never expanded into Ireland.
Sorry, I should have been clearer that I meant the Gauls had defeated Rome
*before* it was a major empire, but when the Romans did know about iron.