Antidulvian Question
Urza243457
If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
"equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
Masako Dolan
I really dunno, but when the time comes, I don't think that any
Antidiluvian is really going to be too concerned about rules laid down
by one of their grandchilder. I think their overall mission is to slake
their thirst! I suppose that Salout, Brujah, and Cappodonias (sp?) had
friends amoung the others, so if I were Tremere, Triole, or Giovanni,
I'd be a little nervous. BTW I thought one of the possible reasons for
the Jyhad was to see who the last of the third generation would be. As
a further string to this thread, who does anybody think the last
surviving Antidiluvian will be after the dust settles. Make your
considerations for both individual power, and clan manipulation for
ultimate victory!
Doug
In <509rlk$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> urza2...@aol.com (Urza243457)
writes:
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
urza2...@aol.com (Urza243457) wrote:
>If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
>Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
>be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
>Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
>"equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
>more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
fight...
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <50bhp0$e...@library.airnews.net> r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>urza2...@aol.com (Urza243457) wrote:
>Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>fight...
Well... You know what they say about old age and treachery... Tremere is
about 1/10th the age of other Antediluvians. :-)
CHILTON RICHARD G
In article <50au77$d...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> mas...@ix.netcom.com(Masako Dolan ) writes:
>From: mas...@ix.netcom.com(Masako Dolan )
>Subject: Re: Antidulvian Question
>Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:59:51 GMT
> BTW I thought one of the possible reasons for
>the Jyhad was to see who the last of the third generation would be. As
>a further string to this thread, who does anybody think the last
>surviving Antidiluvian will be after the dust settles. Make your
>considerations for both individual power, and clan manipulation for
>ultimate victory!
I'd say Gangral has a good chance. She's one of two still active, has
travelled the world learning new things, her mother's Lilith (the first
Mage? Adem's first wife, Caine's teacher), and her younger half brother is a
gy by the name of Caine.
She was an immortal before being embraced, has founded the Gypsy line, the
Garou line, and the Gangrel line. One of her main Disciplines is Fortitude (
to help survive attacts) and another is Protean (to change shapes to avoid
attacts). The Gangrel are known for recruiting allies in the weirdest
places. Plus her clan has that little survival test on new members.
Downside, she's not (as far as we know) a schemer. She leaves her
descendances alone rather than trying to rule them. While she can out party
Toreador (she was immortal before being embraced for the thrill of it) she
can't out think Malkavain (nor can any who don't understand his thought
process).
Well, that's my take. Any others want to give a good reason why their
favorite antidulvian would win?
Richard
Mark Duncan Watson
Urza243457 (urza2...@aol.com) wrote:
: If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
: Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
: be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
: Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
: "equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
: more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
It's gonna be everyone for themselves, the antis aren't gonna care who's who.
-Mark Watson, A self proclaimed net celeb
-=-=-=-=-=-=-ac...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-= =-=
-=- "When you've got a Chatauqua in your head, -=-
=-= it's extreamly hard not to inflict it on =-=
-=- innocent people." -=-
=-= -Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of =-=
-=- Motorcycle Maintenace -=-
=-= =-=
-=-=-=-=anarchy today for a better tommorow=-=-=-=-
Come See Mark Watson's World Of Darkness page at:
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ac847/wod.htm
Keith
r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon) wrote:
>urza2...@aol.com (Urza243457) wrote:
>
>>If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
>>Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
>>be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
>>Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
>>"equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
>>more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
>
>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>fight...
>
>
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
Yes But Tremere is the Baby of the group, Troile has been around for
millenia and Giovanni has been around for a bit as well. Add to that fact
that Giovanni is supposedly awake (depending on who you listen to) and
that Tremere went into Torpor only a little while (relatively) after
reaching 3rd gen. I would think the Tough battle would be between Troile
and Giovanni.
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <w5mx.721...@UNBSJ.CA>, w5...@UNBSJ.CA (CHILTON RICHARD
G) wrote:
> In article <50au77$d...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
mas...@ix.netcom.com(Masako Dolan ) writes:
> >From: mas...@ix.netcom.com(Masako Dolan )
> >Subject: Re: Antidulvian Question
> >Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:59:51 GMT
>
> > BTW I thought one of the possible reasons for
> >the Jyhad was to see who the last of the third generation would be. As
> >a further string to this thread, who does anybody think the last
> >surviving Antidiluvian will be after the dust settles. Make your
> >considerations for both individual power, and clan manipulation for
> >ultimate victory!
>
> I'd say Gangral has a good chance. She's one of two still active, has
> travelled the world learning new things, her mother's Lilith (the first
> Mage? Adem's first wife, Caine's teacher), and her younger half brother is a
> gy by the name of Caine.
> One of her main Disciplines is Fortitude (
> to help survive attacts) and another is Protean (to change shapes to avoid
> attacts).
I think Ennoia would win. Fortitude 10 plus Flesh of Marble would be a
nasty combination. She could take the worst the others had to dish out,
wait until they were out of blood traits, then use Body of the Sun to wipe
them out. Hers is a nasty combination of powers. I'm sure she's picked
up some Potence and Celerity somewhere along the way, too.
K.
Johnny Mayall
> On 31 Aug 1996, Urza243457 wrote:
>
> If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
> Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
> be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
> Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
> "equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
> more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
Wen Gehenna refuses to materilaize, those who are not the Antedeluvians
will absolutely not surface and attempt to kill all of their opponents,
especially not those who they dislike. They will, however, treat all of
their prodigal brethren with love and respect.
---Johnny Mayall------ac51@jove.acs.unt.edu------http://www.unt.edu/~ac51---
William Geiger
>> > BTW I thought one of the possible reasons for
>> >the Jyhad was to see who the last of the third generation would be.
As
>> >a further string to this thread, who does anybody think the last
>> >surviving Antidiluvian will be after the dust settles. Make your
>> >considerations for both individual power, and clan manipulation for
>> >ultimate victory!
Antes. They haven't spent millenia manipulating others just to get
killed
a a bar brawl. If combat was done. They'd send waves of fodder in first,
then
bomb the crap out of the oppisition.
DeanSpartn
Not the Assamite, who murder two of the three childer of Caine. Caine says
no. Not Brujah, who will be killed by his own people when they find out
he's not an anarch. Not the Followers of Set, who will fall in the great
war against Osiris' minons. Not Ravnos, who will be destroyed by his
kumpania, the Gypsies. Not Salubri (Saulot,) who is already dead. Not
Toreador or Nosferatu, who will most assuredly die in some obnoxious
"Romeo and Juliet" mutual death-pact thing. Not the Tremere, who are
thoroughly despised by the Inconnu. Not Tzimisce and Not Lasombra. They'll
be brought down by their own people. Not Ventrue, who won't see much
reason to live when he loses all holdings. Not the Giovanni, because they
work so much with the Mob that they'll be first discovered and destroyed
when the Masq is shattered.
So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win. Beside the
elimination process above, he has two things going for him in Gehenna:
1) He will feed off the madness of Apocalypse, and;
2) He knows the truth, and the truth set him free.
Michael "God" Hudson
DeanS...@aol.com
"Breathe not his name, let it rest in the shade
Where cold and unhonor'd his relics are laid."
Godi Chavo
kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
>I think Ennoia would win. Fortitude 10 plus Flesh of Marble would be a
>nasty combination. She could take the worst the others had to dish out,
>wait until they were out of blood traits, then use Body of the Sun to wipe
>them out. Hers is a nasty combination of powers. I'm sure she's picked
>up some Potence and Celerity somewhere along the way, too.
>
What about Ravnos. Have you noticed what Chimestry 10 can do?
One time you're there and the next one you're a caged Smurf in the house
of Gargamel. I don't remember how it works but I find it pretty scary!
Lord Dispater
DeanSpartn (deans...@aol.com) wrote:
: Not Tzimisce and Not Lasombra. They'll
: be brought down by their own people.
Ah, but you can't kill Tzimisce. No matter what you do, he'll
be coming back. Give him time, and Malkav will cease to know anything,
on this side of the Shroud, anyway.
: So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win. Beside the
: elimination process above, he has two things going for him in Gehenna:
: 1) He will feed off the madness of Apocalypse, and;
: 2) He knows the truth, and the truth set him free.
Ah, but will the truth fill his empty veins when all other life
has vanished from the earth? Or will he merely be forced back into
Torpor, the fate of any vampire suriving the night?
: Michael "God" Hudson
: DeanS...@aol.com
: "Breathe not his name, let it rest in the shade
: Where cold and unhonor'd his relics are laid."
--
Mike Miller
mum...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
http://www.ECNet.Net/users/mumjm02/home.html
DeanSpartn
Mike Miller wrote:
: Ah, but you can't kill Tzimisce. No matter what you do, he'll
:be coming back. Give him time, and Malkav will cease to know anything,
:on this side of the Shroud, anyway.
Not a chance. If you agree that White Wolf follows a Jungian viewpoint,
then madness is the only savior of the Damned. Remember, the endgame
doesn't just include Gehenna and Convergence, it includes the human
Apocalypse. Vicissitude, H-bomb. Vicissitude, H-bomb. Hm...
: Ah, but will the truth fill his empty veins when all other life
:has vanished from the earth? Or will he merely be forced back into
:Torpor, the fate of any vampire suriving the night?
First of all, it's generally agreed that life will continue on Earth.
Humans will live under the oppresive rule of vampires for about a thousand
years, until a woman with "The Mark Of The Moon" rescues us from slavery.
"When Danya was in kindred land, 'Let my people go.' "
Secondly, again facing the Jungian viewpoint, Malkav's choices depend on
what the truth is. If the truth is "over" - that is, whatever drove Malkav
mad has already happened - then what does he have to worry about?
Certainly if I was five-thousand years old and I had to witness every
horrible thing people have done to each other, I'd be writing this message
from an insane asylum.
William Geiger
kumpania, the Gypsies. Not Salubri (Saulot,) who is already dead.
Thats just what He wants people to think. Hes residing in Tremere and
is gonn abring God's vengence on everyone
coyo...@epix.net
> So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win. Beside the
> elimination process above, he has two things going for him in Gehenna:
>
> 1) He will feed off the madness of Apocalypse, and;
> 2) He knows the truth, and the truth set him free.
>
>
> Michael "God" Hudson
Well, not just that, but:
3) He's such a sharp dresser.
4) His teeth are white and shiny.
5) He smells really nice.
6) He's actually already awake and running the Dole campaign.
Johnny Slam
JS/jhw
Mark Duncan Watson
: So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win.
I agree
I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
DeanSpartn
William Gieger wrote:
:Thats just what He wants people to think. Hes residing in Tremere and
:is gonn abring God's vengence on everyone
Wouldn't that be nice? Unfortunately, when we have a debate like this, we
have to go with what's in the books. Even still, it would be unfortunate
for Saulot to live. He stands as a martyr, a compass which points guns at
the Tremere. If Saulot ever came back, the Inconnu would no longer hate
the Tremere as much. That means, they might live through Gehenna!
Noooooo!!!!!!
DeanSpartn
Johnny Slam wrote:
:6) He's actually already awake and running the Dole campaign.
Nope, sorry. If he was running the Dole campaign, Dole would have already
won.
Jay Mehaffey
Urza243457 wrote:
>
> If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
> Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
> be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
> Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
> "equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
> more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
It really would depend on what happens at Gehenna. If Cain shows up and
takes over the Camarilla, it'll probablly be pretty hard on anybody
that's
commited diablere. If it turns out to be an total free for all, then
everyone thats got the power gets respect, no matter how they got it.
As for beging treated as an equal, that would probably depend on the
Antedeluvian in question. Who is to say how Malkav would react?
Toredor
would probably treat them as upstarts until they somehow "prove"
themselves "respectable" , while Ventrue would judge their power and
ability.
Jay Mehaffey
DeanSpartn
Mark Watson wrote:
:I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
:the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
:too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
:the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
Well, with madness comes wisdom, and all that. Actually, one of the things
WW staff will say privately (but never print in the books; you can find
some of their work on the WWW) is that Malkav's derangement came when he
asked Caine about "It," the great question of why we're all here. Caine
told him, and it drove Malkav mad. But, that means that Malkav knows our
general purpose, and therefore has a powerful weapon to weild when our
purpose is threatened.
White Howler
In article <50fm4n$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, deans...@aol.com
(DeanSpartn) wrote:
> William Gieger wrote:
>
> :Thats just what He wants people to think. Hes residing in Tremere and
> :is gonn abring God's vengence on everyone
>
> Wouldn't that be nice? Unfortunately, when we have a debate like this, we
> have to go with what's in the books.
This is heavily hinted at in the Tremere clanbook.
White Howler
In article <50ftp7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, deans...@aol.com
(DeanSpartn) wrote:
> Mark Watson wrote:
>
> :I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
> :the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
> :too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
> :the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
>
> Well, with madness comes wisdom, and all that. Actually, one of the things
> WW staff will say privately (but never print in the books; you can find
> some of their work on the WWW) is that Malkav's derangement came when he
> asked Caine about "It," the great question of why we're all here. Caine
> told him, and it drove Malkav mad. But, that means that Malkav knows our
> general purpose, and therefore has a powerful weapon to weild when our
> purpose is threatened.
>
>
> > Wouldn't that be nice? Unfortunately, when we have a debate like this, we
> > have to go with what's in the books.
> Michael "God" Hudson
Azhrei
In article <xenya.841610369@linda>, xe...@teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks) wrote:
>In <50bhp0$e...@library.airnews.net> r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent
> Dragon) writes:
>
>>urza2...@aol.com (Urza243457) wrote:
>
>>Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
>>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>>fight...
>
>
>about 1/10th the age of other Antediluvians. :-)
Who has read Ars Magica...
What if Tremere wasn't silly enough to become a vampire, had his entire House
become vampires, trashed all the other Houses, stole all of there magic items
(that inculdes House Verditious(?!?)) and then became a liche.
He then controls the council through magick, and the rest of the clan through
them. He may only be 1/10th the age of the other anti-deluvians, but he is
just about the most powerful mage around - especially if you ust the Ars
Magica magick rules for him.
Happy dreams, anti-deluvians...
SEEYA AZHREI
Dark Jester
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.96090...@jove.acs.unt.edu>,
Johnny Mayall <ac...@jove.acs.unt.edu> writes
>Wen Gehenna refuses to materilaize, those who are not the Antedeluvians
>will absolutely not surface and attempt to kill all of their opponents,
>especially not those who they dislike. They will, however, treat all of
>their prodigal brethren with love and respect.
<groan>
>
>---Johnny Mayall------ac51@jove.acs.unt.edu------http://www.unt.edu/~ac51---
>
BTW if you reply to this I will reply immediately as I'm not going away
for a couple of weeks. And someone will _not_ be retrieving all my mail
for when I do not return.
Eternal Tenebreux AKA Dan Robson
(sob sob, there go my beautiful accents)
<te...@tene.demon.co.uk>
Can you say pooka???????????????????
I'm certainly not known as Dark Jester or Sammael
so refering to me as them will definitely not get my attention.
Keith
who...@ucla.edu (White Howler) wrote:
>In article <50fm4n$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, deans...@aol.com
>(DeanSpartn) wrote:
>
>> William Gieger wrote:
>>
>> :Thats just what He wants people to think. Hes residing in Tremere and
>> :is gonn abring God's vengence on everyone
>>
>> have to go with what's in the books.
>
all I have to say is does anyone have any Idea what lvl 10 oh Saulot's
Power is? for all we know it could be transferring the soul after all he
did smile as he died
Keith
>
>>Yes But Tremere is the Baby of the group, Troile has been around for
>>millenia and Giovanni has been around for a bit as well. Add to that fact
>>that Giovanni is supposedly awake (depending on who you listen to) and
>>that Tremere went into Torpor only a little while (relatively) after
>>reaching 3rd gen. I would think the Tough battle would be between Troile
>>and Giovanni.
>
>one in the 1400s...
>
>Just a little note...
>
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
>"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
>is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
>baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
>
Yes But Who can say if it REALLY is Augustus in that body or Capadcious
without his "I wanna be GOD attitude" That is the problem with Killing an
antidiluvian, how do you know they didn't pull a switch some how?
Pycho
Kraig Blackwelder <kra...@nwu.edu> wrote in article
<kraigb-0209...@acorn186025.nuts.nwu.edu>...
>
> I think Ennoia would win. Fortitude 10 plus Flesh of Marble would be a
> nasty combination. She could take the worst the others had to dish out,
> wait until they were out of blood traits, then use Body of the Sun to
wipe
> them out. Hers is a nasty combination of powers. I'm sure she's picked
> up some Potence and Celerity somewhere along the way, too.
>
Then comes Malkav, who warps the reality that Ennoia is in <Said to be a
Malkavian Ability in Clan Book> and changes her whole being...
As much as I like the Gangrel, and Ennoia.. I would have to put my cards
with Malkav, for I believe that his ability to touch and move the very
fabric of the universe could put a dampner on any antideluvian..
Tzimisce? Yes his body could reform, but what if it was torn and
vaporized <or made into nothingness> by Malkav's refusal for it to be in
his Reality.... something to think about... dont think reform body can come
back from nothing, have to have something to reform..
As for the others, I do not know if there is a discipline that could
match this..... Plus hard to catch Malkav if he slips planes of existance
<ie, slip into Arcadia and exit somewhere else in the world>..
Just my thoughts on the matter..
--
_____________________________________
Pycho
One of Many
Malkavian By Blood, Lunatic by Choice
PY...@LRBCG.COM
PY...@AOL.COM
WWW.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6220/index.html
"Happy Happy, Joy Joy"
"Multiple personalities is the best
thing for a person to have. Never
are you lonely or wanting companionship,
never will you be stuck without someone.
Those who have only one mind are lonely for
they must seek solice from others."
____________________________________
Masako Dolan
In <01bb9962$04714f00$0f27a2ce@Pycho> "Pycho" <py...@lrbcg.com> writes:
>
> Then comes Malkav, who warps the reality that Ennoia is in <Said to
be a
>Malkavian Ability in Clan Book> and changes her whole being...
> As much as I like the Gangrel, and Ennoia.. I would have to put my
cards
>with Malkav, for I believe that his ability to touch and move the very
>fabric of the universe could put a dampner on any antideluvian..
> Tzimisce? Yes his body could reform, but what if it was torn and
>vaporized <or made into nothingness> by Malkav's refusal for it to be
in
>his Reality.... something to think about... dont think reform body can
come
>back from nothing, have to have something to reform..
> As for the others, I do not know if there is a discipline that
could
>match this..... Plus hard to catch Malkav if he slips planes of
existance
><ie, slip into Arcadia and exit somewhere else in the world>..
> Just my thoughts on the matter..
Unfortunately for the malks, I don't see them having any real kind of
organization to effectively mount resistance to the other more directly
organized clans. Gotta be able to use all those disposable pawns to get
all the good matchups ya know. But who knows. Maybe when Malkav steps
in and calls out in Malkavian time, who knows who (or WHAT) might show
up. Or maybe all the other kooks want to watch all the neat fireworks
and be in time for good seats (what could possibly beat Nosferatu vs.
Toreador?) and don't bother to show up at all! Always so hard to tell
with those darn kooks.
Then again, maybe Malkav will assume his alter-ego, semi-doomsday
device day form and transform into...WORD EATER! Run for cover all. :P
Doug
DeanSpartn
Doug wrote:
:Unfortunately for the malks, I don't see them having any real kind of
:organization to effectively mount resistance to the other more directly
:organized clans.
Doug, have we never heard of the Malkavian Time Network? Of course the
Malkavians have an organization! They've played upon our beliefs that they
are insane fools, because to not know your enemy is to be defeated.
Remember: They have derangements. A derangement can be as simple as ADD,
or minor hyperactivity, or a second personality. EVERYONE ALIVE has some
derangement or another; I think the living has been doing pretty well.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Keith <Crow...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Yes But Tremere is the Baby of the group, Troile has been around for
>millenia and Giovanni has been around for a bit as well. Add to that fact
>that Giovanni is supposedly awake (depending on who you listen to) and
>that Tremere went into Torpor only a little while (relatively) after
>reaching 3rd gen. I would think the Tough battle would be between Troile
>and Giovanni.
The problem is that Tremere was an archmage before he became a
vampire, and is probably more powerful now. Giovanni's been around for
less time than Tremere, and his Disciplines aren't exactly threatening
to Tremere (who, for the most part, can rival Necromany with Spirit
Thaumaturgy).
Ron Sharp
Mark Duncan Watson <ac...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> wrote in article
<50flet$b...@tribune.usask.ca>...
>
> : So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win.
>
> I agree
>
> I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
> the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
> too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
> the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
>
There is no truth to the rumour that the Malks are all part of a secret
plan. *beep*
Even through they hae the perfect disciplines for spies, instant
communications through the Malkavian Madness Network, and strange ways of
coming and going through the Umbra. *beep*
The madness isn't just a cover story to allow getting away with anything
they want. *beep*
There is no truth to rumour that Malkav can direct and control any
Malkavian through the Madness Network. *beep*
Anyone spreading this rumour will be visited by True Malkav assassins who
will rearrange your CD and VCR tape collection in NO HUMAN ORDER. *beep*
This has been a recording. *beep*
DeanSpartn
Jay wrote:
> If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
> Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't
they
> be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna
comes?
> Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated
as
> "equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded
much
> more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
Are you kidding? You're worried about the Antedeluvians? How about the
Inconnu? Fourth and Fifth generation kindred who remember their beloved
Saulot are going to RIP through those who diablerized their way to the
top. It is of no consequence what the Antedeluvians wish. If they don't
destroy the Pretenders, the Inconnu will.
Kraig Blackwelder
Just for the record, since it's getting on my nerves, antediluvian is
spelled ANTEdiluvian, not ANTIdiluvian. The prefix anti- means against,
while the prefix ante- means before. Antediluvian means "before the
flood."
K.
last name: Anthony
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> The problem is that Tremere was an archmage before he became a
> vampire, and is probably more powerful now. Giovanni's been around for
> less time than Tremere, and his Disciplines aren't exactly threatening
> to Tremere (who, for the most part, can rival Necromany with Spirit
> Thaumaturgy).
Well, yes, but you have to remember that Tremere lost all those nifty
powers of his when he turned Kindred, and you can only do so much with
Thaumaturgy...
(Besides which, comparing the V:tDA tome to the V:tM manual, the clan
Tremere has apparently forgotten a lot of their Paths...)
And hey, who knows? If Giovanni can find and call up the spirit of
Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
-DerF
Boedyn LOC
In article <50bhp0$e...@library.airnews.net>, r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the
Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>
>Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>fight...
>
>
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
Don't underestamate the Giovanni. I strongly suspect that their forcoming
Clan Book, and the next chapter in the Giovanni chronicles will see a
sizeable increase in their corparal powers. Above and beonyd that, we
have no idea what unholy powers from the Dark Umbra they have bound to do
their bidding, or have simply stuck bargians with. I can see the Giovanni
making deal with Mealfeans and biding, one by one, armies of Spectres.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
BOEDYN - Lord of Cruelty and Wet Willies in Hell
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"15 years in France teaches a man to hate."
Philip of Burgandy, The Black Adder
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are as genitals unto the gods; they play with us for their pleasure!"
Lord Melchutt, Blackadder II
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"I believe the phrase sounds like 'clucking bell'."
Edmund, Blackadder goes Fourth
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <50flet$b...@tribune.usask.ca>, ac...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Mark
Duncan Watson) wrote:
> : So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win.
>
> I agree
>
> I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
> the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
> too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
> the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
Nonsense. The savior of the vampires will be Saulot, reborn in Tremere's
body. Gehenna will begin and at the grimmest moment, Saulot will appear
from the Tremere chantry in Vienna and save the souls of all kindred on
Earth, letting them all achieve a peaceful Golconda, just before they all
stay up to watch their final sunrise.
K.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
s34...@student.uq.edu.au (Azhrei) wrote:
>>>Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
>>>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>>>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>>>fight...
>>
>>
>>Well... You know what they say about old age and treachery... Tremere is
>>about 1/10th the age of other Antediluvians. :-)
>Who has read Ars Magica...
>What if Tremere wasn't silly enough to become a vampire, had his entire House
>become vampires, trashed all the other Houses, stole all of there magic items
>(that inculdes House Verditious(?!?)) and then became a liche.
>He then controls the council through magick, and the rest of the clan through
>them. He may only be 1/10th the age of the other anti-deluvians, but he is
>just about the most powerful mage around - especially if you ust the Ars
>Magica magick rules for him.
>Happy dreams, anti-deluvians...
What if? Well, Saulot would still be alive for starters...
And they're Antedeluvians. They're from before the flood, they're not
against the flood.
Jason Corley
Lord Dispater (mum...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) wrote:
: Ah, but will the truth fill his empty veins when all other life
: has vanished from the earth?
Why not?
(i mean, it worked for nixon didnt it?)
--
"Dullness marked the beginning of our tale, dullness marked the thread of
it, and dullness more than permeates it's end altogether we've all had a
dern dull time of it, ain't we? Yezza." ----Geo. Herriman
Jason D. "cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley was here but now he's gone.
Jason Corley
DeanSpartn (deans...@aol.com) wrote:
: Well, with madness comes wisdom, and all that.
Yeah, and when you look at it carefully, the fact that this is a load of
crap becomes:
A. painfully clear.
and
B. impressively subtle.
(why do you _think_ they're nuts?)
DeanSpartn
Keith wrote:
:all I have to say is does anyone have any Idea what lvl 10 oh Saulot's
:did smile as he died
Remember that vampiric existence for the Salubri is an agony. Saulot
smiled because he had ended the pain.
The voice of "reason,"
Eborium
Presumably that means, from what people have been saying, that there is
an extremely powerful group of vampires out there with the goal of
preventing flooding.
Eborivm
K Kuhn
In article <xenya.841697890@kelly>, xe...@teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks)
wrote:
> In <50dp4i$l...@herald.concentric.net> Keith <Crow...@concentric.net> writes:
>
> >Yes But Tremere is the Baby of the group, Troile has been around for
> >millenia and Giovanni has been around for a bit as well. Add to that fact
> >that Giovanni is supposedly awake (depending on who you listen to) and
> >that Tremere went into Torpor only a little while (relatively) after
> >reaching 3rd gen. I would think the Tough battle would be between Troile
> >and Giovanni.
>
> What? Tremere became Antediluvian in the 900s or 1000s... Augustus became
> one in the 1400s...
>
> Just a little note...
Wasn't there something in Kindred Most Wanted, about a kind of Typhoid
Mary who could infect Kindred with a disease leading to permanent torpor,
and weren't the Giovanni supposed to have been the ones who supported
outlawing her? What if it was because the Giovanni Ante got infected?
SVEN SKOOG e
last name: Anthony (pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us) wrote:
: Well, yes, but you have to remember that Tremere lost all those nifty
: powers of his when he turned Kindred, and you can only do so much with
: Thaumaturgy...
:
: And hey, who knows? If Giovanni can find and call up the spirit of
: Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
Couple of nits to pick here --
(a) Tremere has knowledge of a ritual (a LONG ritual, but still) that
renders him (or, one assumes, any vampire with sufficient knowledge)
immune to fire and sunlight, the traditional ways of snuffing out
vampires. If he can do that, he probably is on the power scale of
a Master or Archmage-level Mage, perhaps an Oracle. I'd give him
more or less free reign over Sphere magick, except that his variants
are implemented as longer-casting-time, preprepared rituals. He
HAS had seven or eight hundred years or so to push the envelope of
static magic and working around Paradox, after all, and I think a
being of Antediluvian power could do that even while dreaming.
Arguing with Tremere, or any of the Council of Seven, would probably
be like holding a detailed philosophical discussion with a learned
high-level theoretical mathematician, except that the metaphysics,
equations, and chaotic attractors now become the very lynchpins of
reality. But I digress (and haven't actually talked to Tremere. ;)
(b) Saulot, like any other sufficiently powerful (dead) figure in the
World of Darkness, had his soul irrevocably snuffed out by Diablerie
(barring unforeseen implications of Obeah 10), and is, therefore,
'in his own private Hell... and quite unreachable,' to quote Clive
Barker's _Hellbound Heart_.
As there is some doubt as to Cappadocius's ultimate demise, and
what, if anything, happened to his immortal soul, perhaps Augustus
could summon his spirit... but, then again, I'm sure Giovanni has
rather poignant and personal reasons for _not_ doing so. (See
_The Last Supper_.) ;)
Anyway, this wasn't really meant to be a 'would-Tremere-win-or-would-
Giovanni' argument on my part, just a few musings.
-- S. Skoog
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
last name: Anthony <pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>> The problem is that Tremere was an archmage before he became a
>> vampire, and is probably more powerful now. Giovanni's been around for
>> less time than Tremere, and his Disciplines aren't exactly threatening
>> to Tremere (who, for the most part, can rival Necromany with Spirit
>> Thaumaturgy).
>Well, yes, but you have to remember that Tremere lost all those nifty
>powers of his when he turned Kindred, and you can only do so much with
>Thaumaturgy...
Yeah, stuff like preventing other Kindred, wraiths, humans, ghouls,
werewolves, etc. from getting anywhere near you. Wards is fun. Also,
what little power Tremere lost was probably gained back when he
diabbed Saulot.
>(Besides which, comparing the V:tDA tome to the V:tM manual, the clan
>Tremere has apparently forgotten a lot of their Paths...)
Or stopped teaching them ;>
>And hey, who knows? If Giovanni can find and call up the spirit of
>Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
Ah, about that. If memory serves, there are two kinds of dead guys who
can't be summoned up with Necromancy:
1. Vampires who have achieved Golconda.
2. Vampires who have been diabbed.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Lord Dispater
DeanSpartn (deans...@aol.com) wrote:
: Not a chance. If you agree that White Wolf follows a Jungian viewpoint,
: then madness is the only savior of the Damned. Remember, the endgame
This makes the tenuous assupmtion that Jung was correct.
: doesn't just include Gehenna and Convergence, it includes the human
: Apocalypse. Vicissitude, H-bomb. Vicissitude, H-bomb. Hm...
Ah, but you fail to appreciate the full power of Vicissitude.
Even if the body should be fully destroyed, the vamipre, Tzimisce, will
return. His return may be delayed by a bit, but he shall return.
: First of all, it's generally agreed that life will continue on Earth.
: Humans will live under the oppresive rule of vampires for about a thousand
: years, until a woman with "The Mark Of The Moon" rescues us from slavery.
: "When Danya was in kindred land, 'Let my people go.' "
What, you think a person like Malkav would enslave the world?
IS this not proof enough that Tzimisce shall rise from his home in
Eastern Europe and take the mantle he has been so wrongly denied for so
many milennia?
: Secondly, again facing the Jungian viewpoint, Malkav's choices depend on
: what the truth is. If the truth is "over" - that is, whatever drove Malkav
: mad has already happened - then what does he have to worry about?
Um, the sun. Fire. Mutant humans that are worse than the
Garou.
Lots of things.
Oh, let's not forget the beings that are Out There, that the
dark Nephandi lords serve from their horizon realms...
(Of course, Malkav can intelligibly deal with these creatures.
Can he survive, is another question.)
: Certainly if I was five-thousand years old and I had to witness every
: horrible thing people have done to each other, I'd be writing this message
: from an insane asylum.
Certainly you would, unless you didn't want to be.
--
Mike Miller
mum...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
http://www.ECNet.Net/users/mumjm02/home.html
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
boed...@aol.com (Boedyn LOC) wrote:
>>Tremere, Troile, and Giovanni are the only ones known to have slain an
>>Antediluvian and taken their place. Tremere, more than likely, is
>>quite potent. Troile and Giovanni, however, may be in for a bit of a
>>fight...
>Don't underestamate the Giovanni. I strongly suspect that their forcoming
>Clan Book, and the next chapter in the Giovanni chronicles will see a
>sizeable increase in their corparal powers. Above and beonyd that, we
>have no idea what unholy powers from the Dark Umbra they have bound to do
>their bidding, or have simply stuck bargians with. I can see the Giovanni
>making deal with Mealfeans and biding, one by one, armies of Spectres.
The problem is that the Giovanni will have a hard time talking to the
Malfeans, since those guys are kind of trapped in the Tempest.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>BOEDYN - Lord of Cruelty and Wet Willies in Hell
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"15 years in France teaches a man to hate."
>Philip of Burgandy, The Black Adder
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"We are as genitals unto the gods; they play with us for their pleasure!"
>Lord Melchutt, Blackadder II
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"I believe the phrase sounds like 'clucking bell'."
>Edmund, Blackadder goes Fourth
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
The Baron
>
>>And hey, who knows? If Giovanni can find and call up the spirit of
>>Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
>
>Ah, about that. If memory serves, there are two kinds of dead guys who
>can't be summoned up with Necromancy:
>
>1. Vampires who have achieved Golconda.
>2. Vampires who have been diabbed.
>
>
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Godi Chavo
>Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
>
Necromancy won't call Saulot simply because he's been diablerised.
William Geiger
Nonsense. The savior of the vampires will be Saulot, reborn in
Tremere's
>body. Gehenna will begin and at the grimmest moment, Saulot will
appear
>from the Tremere chantry in Vienna and save the souls of all kindred on
>Earth, letting them all achieve a peaceful Golconda, just before they
all
>stay up to watch their final sunrise.
>
>
K.
CLose, but not quite. It'll be old testament(sp) wrath of God time.
Saulots
gonna be waving a flaming sword and administering divine punishment.
God will be taking a hand also. Since it will be the end of the world,
He will no
longer be bound by His code of not interfering(directly. Satan can screw
with
us all He wants becuase He's the devil)
last name: Anthony
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> werewolves, etc. from getting anywhere near you. Wards is fun. Also,
> what little power Tremere lost was probably gained back when he
> diabbed Saulot.
Okay, I'll give you the wards. But what does killing Saulot have to
do with the price of tea in China? All that did was cement the clan in
(I'm still not sure how that worked, exactly) and boost Tremere's
generation... it didn't give him his magic back... and according to
the texts, Thaumaturgy's not only not magic, it's a hell of a lot more
restricted.
>
> Or stopped teaching them ;>
>
Well, yes, that too. :)
>
> Ah, about that. If memory serves, there are two kinds of dead guys who
> can't be summoned up with Necromancy:
>
> 1. Vampires who have achieved Golconda.
> 2. Vampires who have been diabbed.
>
> Kestrel
> The Fairly Decent Dragon
Okay, you got me there. I haven't read up on Necromancy in a while - I
must have forgotten that bit. :)
-Chris "DerF" Anthony
CHILTON RICHARD G
In article <50f4ii$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> deans...@aol.com (DeanSpartn) writes:
>From: deans...@aol.com (DeanSpartn)
>Subject: Re: Antedeluvian Question
>Date: 2 Sep 1996 13:12:50 -0400
>Not the Assamite, who murder two of the three childer of Caine. Caine says
>no. Not Brujah, who will be killed by his own people when they find out
>he's not an anarch. Not the Followers of Set, who will fall in the great
>war against Osiris' minons. Not Ravnos, who will be destroyed by his
>kumpania, the Gypsies. Not Salubri (Saulot,) who is already dead. Not
>Toreador or Nosferatu, who will most assuredly die in some obnoxious
>"Romeo and Juliet" mutual death-pact thing. Not the Tremere, who are
>thoroughly despised by the Inconnu. Not Tzimisce and Not Lasombra. They'll
>be brought down by their own people. Not Ventrue, who won't see much
>reason to live when he loses all holdings. Not the Giovanni, because they
>work so much with the Mob that they'll be first discovered and destroyed
>when the Masq is shattered.
>So, I'm sorry to say, the Malkavian Antedeluvian will win. Beside the
>elimination process above, he has two things going for him in Gehenna:
>1) He will feed off the madness of Apocalypse, and;
>2) He knows the truth, and the truth set him free.
Noticed you didn't list a reason why it wouldn't be Gangrel. Personally I
can see Malkav ignoring Gangrel and vis a versa.
Richard
CHILTON RICHARD G
In article <01bb9962$04714f00$0f27a2ce@Pycho> "Pycho" <py...@lrbcg.com> writes:
>From: "Pycho" <py...@lrbcg.com>
>Subject: Re: Antidulvian Question
>Date: 3 Sep 1996 06:28:10 GMT
>Kraig Blackwelder <kra...@nwu.edu> wrote in article
><kraigb-0209...@acorn186025.nuts.nwu.edu>...
>>
>> I think Ennoia would win. Fortitude 10 plus Flesh of Marble would be a
>> nasty combination. She could take the worst the others had to dish out,
>> wait until they were out of blood traits, then use Body of the Sun to
>wipe
>> them out. Hers is a nasty combination of powers. I'm sure she's picked
>> up some Potence and Celerity somewhere along the way, too.
>>
>> K.
> Then comes Malkav, who warps the reality that Ennoia is in <Said to be a
>Malkavian Ability in Clan Book> and changes her whole being...
> As much as I like the Gangrel, and Ennoia.. I would have to put my cards
>with Malkav, for I believe that his ability to touch and move the very
>fabric of the universe could put a dampner on any antideluvian..
But would Malkav actually show up for the battle? Why? I can see ignoring
the guy calling himself the last Antidulvian but only a few Antidulvains (
Gangrel, Ravnos, Troile) ignoring Malkav if they won.
Richard
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Ack! Sorry about the multipost,everybody.
Robert Douglas
c.uk>:
Organization: Florida State University
Distribution:
Eborium (jm...@york.ac.uk) wrote:
: > Just for the record, since it's getting on my nerves, antediluvian is
: Eborivm
So Tzmizie(sp) will use Visicitude 10 to flesh form all of his followers
into a giant wall that prevents flooding. Tremere will swim out into the
middle of the flood and start firestorming. The Gangrel Ante will want
to save the water because it is part of nature, and Malkav will probably
sail his little toy boats in it. Giovanni will want to start selling
water to people who need it. And Caine will say "Not again!"
--
Robert Douglas rsd...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu
"As I was going up the stair, I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again to-day. I wish, I wish he'd stay away."-Mearns
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <50ifc3$17...@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, PHP...@prodigy.com
(William Geiger) wrote:
Uh. Interesting speculation, but completely lacking in any sort of
foundation in the (White Wolf) canon. For one thing, Saulot is NOT a
waving flaming sword kind of character, and God/Gaia/The One isn't big on
making personal appearances, even at Gehenna/Apocalypse.
K.
Ethan Skemp
Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
> Uh. Interesting speculation, but completely lacking in any sort of
> foundation in the (White Wolf) canon. For one thing, Saulot is NOT a
> waving flaming sword kind of character, and God/Gaia/The One isn't big on
> making personal appearances, even at Gehenna/Apocalypse.
Actually, he got it right. Damn. To think that someone guessed the whole
"Saulot with a flaming sword" plotline ahead of time. Oh well, now that
you've got that, you can probably figure out the rest. So much for printing
the "Do-it-yourself-Armageddon" book.
Does this also mean that everyone's predicted the fact that Great Fenris is
gonna devour Tremere whole, and that Thor's gonna kill the Wyrm but die two
steps later from its poison?
We gotta start being less obvious.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Makin' trouble for the hell of it again
DeanSpartn
Richard writes:
:Noticed you didn't list a reason why it wouldn't be Gangrel. Personally
I
:can see Malkav ignoring Gangrel and vis a versa.
Oops, you're right! "And, certainly not the Gangrel, who will die of grief
when the World's plants, animals, and Garou die."
Boedyn LOC
In article <50ftp7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, deans...@aol.com
(DeanSpartn) wrote:
> Well, with madness comes wisdom, and all that. Actually, one of the
things
> WW staff will say privately (but never print in the books; you can find
> some of their work on the WWW) is that Malkav's derangement came when he
> asked Caine about "It," the great question of why we're all here. Caine
> told him, and it drove Malkav mad. But, that means that Malkav knows our
> general purpose, and therefore has a powerful weapon to weild when our
> purpose is threatened.
Malkav: Grand Sire why are we here? What's the reason, what's the awnser?
Why?
Caine: 42.
Malkav: What! What do you mean "42!" No, no I'll clam down.....Hmm..O.k.
I..I think I can handle that. 42. hmm. O.k. the answer is 42. (Long
pause) But, um, if the awnser is 42, then whats the question?
Caine: What's 9 times 7?
Malkav: Whats 9 times...42..7...9 times 7......42..but, no..I..er..uooo
..aggg....blaaa..... ....pppbbbttt...Auga! Auga! webbie webbie
webbie...blaaa....wo wa wo wa wokka wokka wokka......(runs off screaming
gibberish).
Caine: Damn. I hate it when they do that.
Jason Martin
SVEN SKOOG e (ssk...@elux3.cs.umass.edu) wrote:
: last name: Anthony (pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us) wrote:
: : Well, yes, but you have to remember that Tremere lost all those nifty
: : powers of his when he turned Kindred, and you can only do so much with
: : Thaumaturgy...
: :
: : And hey, who knows? If Giovanni can find and call up the spirit of
: : Saulot in Tremere's face, that's pretty likely to flip him out...
: Couple of nits to pick here --
: (a) Tremere has knowledge of a ritual (a LONG ritual, but still) that
: renders him (or, one assumes, any vampire with sufficient knowledge)
: immune to fire and sunlight, the traditional ways of snuffing out
: vampires. If he can do that, he probably is on the power scale of
: a Master or Archmage-level Mage, perhaps an Oracle. I'd give him
: more or less free reign over Sphere magick, except that his variants
: are implemented as longer-casting-time, preprepared rituals. He
: HAS had seven or eight hundred years or so to push the envelope of
: static magic and working around Paradox, after all, and I think a
: being of Antediluvian power could do that even while dreaming.
: Arguing with Tremere, or any of the Council of Seven, would probably
: be like holding a detailed philosophical discussion with a learned
: high-level theoretical mathematician, except that the metaphysics,
: equations, and chaotic attractors now become the very lynchpins of
: reality. But I digress (and haven't actually talked to Tremere. ;)
I'm not sure If I'd give him the ability to actually perform True Magick, but I'd
definitely allow him to fake quite a few rotes, effects with some elaborate
rituals. After all, he has had quite a bit of time to contemplate exactly how to
recreate much of what he used to be able to do during his breathing days while he's
been asleep. Also, don't forget that rather nasty ritual Sabre of the Wind (I
think that's it's name, don't have a book nearby). Which allows the Thaumaturgist
to wave his hand and decapitate others at range with a "magical" blade of wind (or
something along those lines).
I can see it now:
Troile: Now, I will take your power and make it mine.
Tremere: <Flicks his fingers in Troile's direction>
*Dull wet thud sound*
:)
: (b) Saulot, like any other sufficiently powerful (dead) figure in the
: World of Darkness, had his soul irrevocably snuffed out by Diablerie
: (barring unforeseen implications of Obeah 10), and is, therefore,
: 'in his own private Hell... and quite unreachable,' to quote Clive
: Barker's _Hellbound Heart_.
Or he's inside Tremere's head (Or body if you go with that whole soul transferrence
thing.)
Ghost
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
last name: Anthony <pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>> Yeah, stuff like preventing other Kindred, wraiths, humans, ghouls,
>> werewolves, etc. from getting anywhere near you. Wards is fun. Also,
>> what little power Tremere lost was probably gained back when he
>> diabbed Saulot.
>Okay, I'll give you the wards. But what does killing Saulot have to
>do with the price of tea in China? All that did was cement the clan in
>(I'm still not sure how that worked, exactly) and boost Tremere's
>generation... it didn't give him his magic back... and according to
>the texts, Thaumaturgy's not only not magic, it's a hell of a lot more
>restricted.
Ah, but you're forgetting the snazzy benefits of being of the 3rd
Generation. Not only is it possible for Tremere to have Saulot's
memories in addition to his own, but he now has power out most
orifices. He may well be more powerful than ever before.
>> Ah, about that. If memory serves, there are two kinds of dead guys who
>> can't be summoned up with Necromancy:
>>
>> 1. Vampires who have achieved Golconda.
>> 2. Vampires who have been diabbed.
>>
>> Kestrel
>> The Fairly Decent Dragon
>Okay, you got me there. I haven't read up on Necromancy in a while - I
>must have forgotten that bit. :)
NP, I figured as much. ;>
Eborium
> : > Just for the record, since it's getting on my nerves, antediluvian is
> : > spelled ANTEdiluvian, not ANTIdiluvian. The prefix anti- means against,
> : > while the prefix ante- means before. Antediluvian means "before the
> : > flood."
>
> : Presumably that means, from what people have been saying, that there is
> : an extremely powerful group of vampires out there with the goal of
> : preventing flooding.
>
> So Tzmizie(sp) will use Visicitude 10 to flesh form all of his followers
> into a giant wall that prevents flooding. Tremere will swim out into the
> middle of the flood and start firestorming. The Gangrel Ante will want
> to save the water because it is part of nature, and Malkav will probably
> sail his little toy boats in it. Giovanni will want to start selling
> water to people who need it. And Caine will say "Not again!"
Its nice to know that even ancient and scheming vampires have a social
conscience.
Eborium
William Geiger
(b) Saulot, like any other sufficiently powerful (dead) figure in the
> World of Darkness, had his soul irrevocably snuffed out by
Diablerie
> (barring unforeseen implications of Obeah 10), and is, therefore,
> 'in his own private Hell... and quite unreachable,' to quote Clive
> Barker's _Hellbound Heart_.
>
>
If Saulot wanted to die so much, why didn't He just walk out into the sun?
Also, Saulot could of left His body BEFORE Tremere dibbed him. I
mentained
this before that He could be residing in Tremere and thus allows Tremere
access to His power(Piggybacking if you will) or they could of merged
(soul shards?)
Ray
William Geiger (PHP...@prodigy.com) wrote:
: (b) Saulot, like any other sufficiently powerful (dead) figure in the
: > World of Darkness, had his soul irrevocably snuffed out by
: Diablerie
: > (barring unforeseen implications of Obeah 10), and is, therefore,
: > 'in his own private Hell... and quite unreachable,' to quote Clive
: > Barker's _Hellbound Heart_.
: >
: >
: If Saulot wanted to die so much, why didn't He just walk out into the sun?
It's a buddhist thing actually, IMO.
Point: Saulot and the Salubri are steeped in eastern mysticicm
point: most eastern religions believe in the soul and reincarnation
point: the salubri are attempting to trancend the cycle of reincarnation a la
Buddhism.
point: diablrie destroys the soul, death by sunburn doesn't.
Was always one of the things I liked best about the Salubri...
--
Dreck
last name: Anthony
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> Generation. Not only is it possible for Tremere to have Saulot's
> memories in addition to his own, but he now has power out most
> orifices. He may well be more powerful than ever before.
Heh. Yet another thing I forgot. I must be losing it.
But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
thing that I've never quite understood. :)
-Chris "DerF" Anthony
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
PHP...@prodigy.com (William Geiger) wrote:
>If Saulot wanted to die so much, why didn't He just walk out into the sun?
The dork achieved Golconda. His mindset's a little hard to grasp.
> Also, Saulot could of left His body BEFORE Tremere dibbed him. I
>mentained
>this before that He could be residing in Tremere and thus allows Tremere
>access to His power(Piggybacking if you will) or they could of merged
>(soul shards?)
A possibility, particularly given Etrius' misgivings about the whole
deal.
Godi Chavo
last name: Anthony <pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
>Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
>thing that I've never quite understood. :)
>
And if they are now known as a clan, that means (some) Kindreds know
Tremere is an Antedilluvian but wasn't before. Why do the Camarilla still
accept a clan issued frow a diabolist? Is that a known fact or still a
secret?
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <322F05...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>, last name: Anthony
<pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
> But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
> Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
> thing that I've never quite understood. :)
I think it works this way: To be an actual clan, you have to have an
antediluvian. Tremere, power-hungry individual that he is, decided that
he wanted his vampires to have all the advantages of a clan, so he sought
out an antediluvian to diablarize. Lucky him, he found Saulot! Of
course, now he's in Vienna, experiencing the spiritual equivalent of
eating something that didn't agree with him and popping into torpor on a
regular basis and, some say, growing a third eye.
Gee, Tremere, maybe Saulot WASN'T such a good choice....
K.
Nyarlathotep
In article <50n742$9...@athena.ulaval.ca>, Godi Chavo
<aaf...@agora.ulaval.ca> wrote:
snip
> And if they are now known as a clan, that means (some) Kindreds know
> Tremere is an Antedilluvian but wasn't before. Why do the Camarilla still
> accept a clan issued frow a diabolist? Is that a known fact or still a
> secret?
Remember that the Tremere were one of the Clans that helped organize
and establish the Camarilla. Also, they brought with them a good amount of
magical power. That Tremere diablerized Saulot was of no consequence (and
was a couple of hundred of years under the bridge, anyway). The only angry
ones (and I am sure they still hold a grudge) would be the Inconnu. As for
the Camarilla, they needed support and the Tremere were willing to through
their wizard's cone in with everyone else hats. Politics, pure and
simple...
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
"Oooooh...._Never_ use this!" -- Zathras
"Who knew they were French?" -- Marcus
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
last name: Anthony <pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>> Ah, but you're forgetting the snazzy benefits of being of the 3rd
>> Generation. Not only is it possible for Tremere to have Saulot's
>> memories in addition to his own, but he now has power out most
>> orifices. He may well be more powerful than ever before.
>Heh. Yet another thing I forgot. I must be losing it.
>But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
>Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
>thing that I've never quite understood. :)
Very few people have cajones large and tough enough to say otherwise.
GSaracco
In article <nyarlathotep-0...@slip-92-3.ots.utexas.edu>,
nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu (Nyarlathotep) writes:
> Remember that the Tremere were one of the Clans that helped organize
>and establish the Camarilla. Also, they brought with them a good amount
of
>magical power. That Tremere diablerized Saulot was of no consequence (and
>was a couple of hundred of years under the bridge, anyway). The only
angry
>ones (and I am sure they still hold a grudge) would be the Inconnu. As
for
>the Camarilla, they needed support and the Tremere were willing to
through
>their wizard's cone in with everyone else hats. Politics, pure and
>simple...
You forgot that the Tal'mahe'Ra hates them too. Never forget the original
terrors still hunt for the lifeblood of the Usurpers
Boedyn LOC
In article <50ibfq$2...@library.airnews.net>, r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the
Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>>>fight...
>
>>Don't underestamate the Giovanni. I strongly suspect that their
forcoming
>>Clan Book, and the next chapter in the Giovanni chronicles will see a
>>sizeable increase in their corparal powers. Above and beonyd that, we
>>have no idea what unholy powers from the Dark Umbra they have bound to
do
>>their bidding, or have simply stuck bargians with. I can see the
Giovanni
>>making deal with Mealfeans and biding, one by one, armies of Spectres.
>
>The problem is that the Giovanni will have a hard time talking to the
>Malfeans, since those guys are kind of trapped in the Tempest.
>
>
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
Not neccarely. Their are varation on the disciplines. Some Giovanni may
have, say, a varion on Necromany 7 that allows them to talk to creatures
in the tempest. At the very least the Giovanni could bind a Specre, and
force it to send a message to a Mealfean. Most mealfeans would simply eat
this spectre. But some savy one would hold off for a bigger feast later.
These kinds are one ones the Giovanni would bargan with. Maby thats what
Augustus himself is doing.
Kraig Blackwelder
> last name: Anthony <pant...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>
> >But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
> >Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
> >thing that I've never quite understood. :)
> >
> And if they are now known as a clan, that means (some) Kindreds know
> Tremere is an Antedilluvian but wasn't before. Why do the Camarilla still
> accept a clan issued frow a diabolist?
Because, as an antediluvian, he's powerful enough to make them. His clan
is also fairly large, and the Camarilla is also beholden to clan Tremere
for their ritual keeping the Assamites from Diablarizing people.
>Is that a known fact or still a
> secret?
Tremere has, to one degree or another, been cast as a hero or protector of
Kindred, because Saulot has been horribly defamed, called a soul stealer
and any number of other unpleasant titles. By manipulating the perception
of history, Tremere has been working to put some spin on the whole
Diablarie of Saulot. Vampires who were actually around back then know
better, however....
K.
Shadow
Jay Mehaffey wrote:
>
> Urza243457 wrote:
> >
> > If Gehenna comes, wouldn't the Antidiluvians who killed another
> > Antidiluvian to get to their posistion of power (ie Tremere) wouldn't they
> > be persecuted by the oldest Antidiluvians for Diablere once Gehenna comes?
> > Or once you "become" a member of the third generation, you are treated as
> > "equal" by the other Antis? If you can make sence of this (it sounded much
> > more coherent when I though it out) please E-Mail me.
>
> It really would depend on what happens at Gehenna. If Cain shows up and
> takes over the Camarilla, it'll probablly be pretty hard on anybody
> that's
> commited diablere. If it turns out to be an total free for all, then
> everyone thats got the power gets respect, no matter how they got it.
>
> As for beging treated as an equal, that would probably depend on the
> Antedeluvian in question. Who is to say how Malkav would react?
> Toredor
> would probably treat them as upstarts until they somehow "prove"
> themselves "respectable" , while Ventrue would judge their power and
> ability.
>
> Jay Mehaffey
Caine would not take over the cam. A vampire is a vampire to him. Thinks
about it.
Jester
Benjamin J. Acosta
:.nwu.edu> <322DFE...@white-wolf.com>
Distribution:
Ethan Skemp (alpha...@white-wolf.com) wrote:
: Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
: > Uh. Interesting speculation, but completely lacking in any sort of
: > foundation in the (White Wolf) canon. For one thing, Saulot is NOT a
: > waving flaming sword kind of character, and God/Gaia/The One isn't big on
: > making personal appearances, even at Gehenna/Apocalypse.
: Actually, he got it right. Damn. To think that someone guessed the whole
: "Saulot with a flaming sword" plotline ahead of time. Oh well, now that
: you've got that, you can probably figure out the rest. So much for printing
: the "Do-it-yourself-Armageddon" book.
: Does this also mean that everyone's predicted the fact that Great Fenris is
: gonna devour Tremere whole, and that Thor's gonna kill the Wyrm but die two
: steps later from its poison?
You forgot about the four Archmagi who become the Horseman of the
Apocolypse and how High King David will return to England during its
darkest hour. Not to mention everyone in the Celestial Chorus being
snatched up to heaven by the rapture while Elvis becomes a Risen in time
for his second coming. And do I even have to mention Czar Vargo(sp?)
showing up with his airship fleet to pull an ID4 on the Antes?
: We gotta start being less obvious.
If you're going to talk about the prophecies, don't leave anything out.
: Ethan Skemp
: WWGS
: Makin' trouble for the hell of it again
Ben Acosta
Man in Blue
Adding fuel to the fire
Anne Gwin
In article <50q81i$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, gsar...@aol.com (GSaracco)
wrote:
> You forgot that the Tal'mahe'Ra hates them too. Never forget the original
> terrors still hunt for the lifeblood of the Usurpers
Very true. The Old Clan is still not very happy about the use and abuse
of their elders. I had forgotten that point.
Nyarlathotep
David Johnston
Anthony
-> But just out of curiosity - what is the logic in saying that since
-> Tremere diablerized Saulot, the Tremere are now a clan? That's one
-> thing that I've never quite understood. :)
The Tremere are powerful enough that no one is going to argue with them
about it.
Keith
Oh by the way.
My friend and I came up with a theory.
Saulot is not dead.
He's now living in Tremere's body. he switched Souls with Tremere right
before the Soul Draining. that is why he smiled. he knew he was going to
survive.
Also I heard that Giovanni isn't a 3rd Gen. in the Last Supper it says
Capadocious left his body and went into a Dove as Giovanni Diablerized
him.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
boed...@aol.com (Boedyn LOC) wrote:
>Not neccarely. Their are varation on the disciplines. Some Giovanni may
>have, say, a varion on Necromany 7 that allows them to talk to creatures
>in the tempest. At the very least the Giovanni could bind a Specre, and
>force it to send a message to a Mealfean. Most mealfeans would simply eat
>this spectre. But some savy one would hold off for a bigger feast later.
>These kinds are one ones the Giovanni would bargan with. Maby thats what
>Augustus himself is doing.
Hmm... a possibility. Of course, getting the Malfean to actually help
directly is nearly impossible (assuming, of course, their power
doesn't take them beyond the need for fetters).
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>BOEDYN - Lord of Cruelty and Wet Willies in Hell
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"15 years in France teaches a man to hate."
>Philip of Burgandy, The Black Adder
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"We are as genitals unto the gods; they play with us for their pleasure!"
>Lord Melchutt, Blackadder II
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"I believe the phrase sounds like 'clucking bell'."
>Edmund, Blackadder goes Fourth
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
Jesse Mazer
All this reminds me of discussions I've had with certain friends regarding
the Final Reckoning between the Antediluvians. My friend Phil thinks
Assam and Giovanni would be the toughest, because of Quietus and
Necromancy. Level 10 Quietus allows you to blood-bond someone with one
drink, and 10 Necromancy is basically the devil's power to take souls in
exchange for tasks. He said, "Can you imagine how many souls Augustus
Giovanni would have by now?"
I say Assamites are for twinks and Giovanni only has power over fools.
The Ass-mite clanbook only convinced me further how much of a paper tiger
that clan is, and the Giovanni clanbook had better be a work of genius to
make me think that clan is worth anything.
My belief is that the more physical you are, the worse off you are, since
Gehenna, as someone posted before, is not likely to come down to direct
physical confrontation. So as much as I like Troile, he/she is probably
toast.
And there are only two clans with solely mental Disciplines: the
Malkavians and Tremere. Okay, so the Setites have three mentals too, but
Serpentis blows. My money goes on Malkav and Tremere being the two
biggest shitkickers in the arena. Malkav's power to tweak reality is
something all right, but saying Malkav can arbitrarily will someone out of
existence is a little extreme. Anyone with the inherent power of an
Antediluvian would probably be resistant to most of this reality-rending,
but only Tremere with his magical training would be able to give back as
good as he got. There is a reason that Malkavians are insane and
fractious and lots don't even recognize they're a clan: they'd be too
powerful! Likewise, the power of the Tremere has to be diluted to make
the game fair: the schism between Goratrix and the other councilors, the
rumors of Tremere's "transformation", the rigid pyramid structure... Most
tellingly, they have more enemies than you can shake a stick at: the
Inconnu, the Assamites, the True Hand, Old Clan Tzimisce, and just about
everyone else. These groups, all extremely powerful, recognize how much
of a threat the Warlocks are. The Tremere are all about power, and it all
culminates at the top of the pyramid, with the Magus himself.
Ah, well. There are my (somewhat biased) thoughts.
David Javier, from my roommate's computer
Jesse Mazer
In article <whowler-0209...@ts35-14.wla.ts.ucla.edu>,
who...@ucla.edu (White Howler) wrote:
> In article <50ftp7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, deans...@aol.com
> (DeanSpartn) wrote:
>
> > Mark Watson wrote:
> >
> > :I've often felt that White Wolf was always hinting that the malk's were
> > :the saviors of the vampires. I think they know things to horrible and
> > :too beautiful to tell the others. The've always been the wild card in
> > :the jyhads so the final war will be no different.
> >
> > Well, with madness comes wisdom, and all that. Actually, one of the things
> > WW staff will say privately (but never print in the books; you can find
> > some of their work on the WWW) is that Malkav's derangement came when he
> > asked Caine about "It," the great question of why we're all here. Caine
> > told him, and it drove Malkav mad. But, that means that Malkav knows our
> > general purpose, and therefore has a powerful weapon to weild when our
> > purpose is threatened.
> >
> >
>
> > > Wouldn't that be nice? Unfortunately, when we have a debate like this, we
> > > have to go with what's in the books.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michael "God" Hudson
> > DeanS...@aol.com
> > "Breathe not his name, let it rest in the shade
> > Where cold and unhonor'd his relics are laid."
My best friend pointed out something from "The Book of Nod." The savior
of the world from Gehenna will be a woman born with a crescent moon mark.
Remember that the Embrace is a kind of rebirth and the Malkavians are the
Clan of the moon.
Very strange, neh?
David Javier
Go...@brown.edu
Boedyn LOC
In article <50ibfq$2...@library.airnews.net>, r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the
Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>>>fight...
>
>>Don't underestamate the Giovanni. I strongly suspect that their
forcoming
>>Clan Book, and the next chapter in the Giovanni chronicles will see a
>>sizeable increase in their corparal powers. Above and beonyd that, we
>>have no idea what unholy powers from the Dark Umbra they have bound to
do
>>their bidding, or have simply stuck bargians with. I can see the
Giovanni
>>making deal with Mealfeans and biding, one by one, armies of Spectres.
>
>The problem is that the Giovanni will have a hard time talking to the
>Malfeans, since those guys are kind of trapped in the Tempest.
>
>
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
Not neccarely. Their are varation on the disciplines. Some Giovanni may
have, say, a varion on Necromany 7 that allows them to talk to creatures
in the tempest. At the very least the Giovanni could bind a Specre, and
force it to send a message to a Mealfean. Most mealfeans would simply eat
this spectre. But some savy one would hold off for a bigger feast later.
These kinds are one ones the Giovanni would bargan with. Maby thats what
Augustus himself is doing.
Jay Mehaffey
Shadow wrote:
> Caine would not take over the cam. A vampire is a vampire to him. Thinks
> about it.
Who's to say what Caine will do? More than any other figure, Caine's
desires and motivations are unknown. Caine my desire power, control,
forgiveness, mercy, sympathy, or destruction. He may be working with
the Antediluvians, against them, with some against others, or working
on his own indepenent goal. Nobody has more than conjectures as to
Caine's real goals or motivations.
If his goal was control of kindred society, for whatever reason, then
placing himself at the head of the Camarilla would be the easist first
step towards that goal. Tha Camarilla has a clear chain of command,
and could be easily opened to all kindred. In theory it's already
open to all, but in practice falls short. Molding the Camarilla to
get a real central organization would take time, but it would still
be far easier than creating a new one.
The only other sects to consider are the Inconnu, the Sabbat, and
the True Black Hand. What other sects and independent clans exist
are to small to consider.
The Inconnu are outside regular society and lack internal organization,
seeming to be more of a network then and organization. And the power
of the individual Inconnu would make taking it over more difficult.
The Sabbat would be glad to welcome Caine, but as soon as he tried to
create a real organization large parts would rebel. And unless Caine
is in league with the dark powers, he would have to purge much of the
ranks of the Sabbat.
As for True Black Hand, who can say how they would react. The True
Black Hand thinks that it's working for certain antediluvians after
all, if Caine is opposed to them then he would be opposed to the
entire organization.
Keep in mind this assumes that Caine's goal is control of kindred
society. He might have entirly different goals.
Jay Mehaffey
GSaracco
In article <agwin-07099...@slip-41-3.ots.utexas.edu>,
ag...@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) writes:
> Very true. The Old Clan is still not very happy about the use and
abuse
>of their elders. I had forgotten that point.
How could you? You helped me with ideas for the rewrite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GSaracco
>And if they are now known as a clan, that means (some) Kindreds know
>Tremere is an Antedilluvian but wasn't before. Why do the Camarilla still
>accept a clan issued frow a diabolist? Is that a known fact or still a
>secret?
>
>
History is written by the victors. The Tremere not only decimated the
Salubri, they waged such a successful propoganda campaign against them,
that the other clans turned against the Salubri. After the Tremere got
done with them, some of the other clans looked at Tremere's act as a just
act against a soul-stealing creature. Modern kindred are not taught all
this, as the elders prefer to sweep the whole thing under the rug. It can
probably be found out, but imho, it's not common knowledge.
William Geiger
These have been tossed arounf for quite awhile. Something I thought up
is based on THE UNBEHOLDEN. When Tremere dibbed Saulot, Saulot's
body didn't turn to ash. I'm thinking, Saulot jumped into Tremere's body
before the final soul-draining took place. Tremere was fooled into
thinking
He completed the diablarie due to the power of Saulot's soul. Thus,
Saulot
will hve His original body waiting when the right time comes.
Ron Sharp
Jesse Mazer <Jesse...@Brown.EDU> wrote in article
<Jesse_Mazer-08...@bootp-171.marcy.brown.edu>...
>
> My best friend pointed out something from "The Book of Nod." The savior
> of the world from Gehenna will be a woman born with a crescent moon mark.
> Remember that the Embrace is a kind of rebirth and the Malkavians are the
> Clan of the moon.
>
> Very strange, neh?
>
> David Javier
> Go...@brown.edu
>
Remember that the most complete version of the Book of Nod was compiled by
a Malkavian.
So if ...
(a) The Malkavians are a bunch of silly loons, then it's a wonderful prank.
(b) The Malkavians actually have a secret purpose, you think they'd tell
the truth?
Either way, yer hosed. Bwoohahaha!
Ron Sharp.
horsefly
On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Ron Sharp wrote:
> Remember that the most complete version of the Book of Nod was compiled by
> a Malkavian.
>
> So if ...
> (a) The Malkavians are a bunch of silly loons, then it's a wonderful prank.
> (b) The Malkavians actually have a secret purpose, you think they'd tell
> the truth?
>
> Either way, yer hosed. Bwoohahaha!
>
> Ron Sharp.
tell everyone exactly what you're going to do, knowing they won't buy it
for a second because you're a "kook," follow what you said you'd do to the
letter, and then watch their jaws drop when they realize you were serious.
or laugh at their corpses.
sure Malkavians are insane, and yes, that does mean their enemies
often end up "hosed," as you say. however, they're not above the ultimate
prank, telling the truth before they do the deed. anyone wise/crazy
enough to listen has time enough to get the hell away.
just a thought.
-=|horsefly|=-
Justin R Achilli
Ron Sharp wrote:
>
> Jesse Mazer <Jesse...@Brown.EDU> wrote in article
> <Jesse_Mazer-08...@bootp-171.marcy.brown.edu>...
> >
> > My best friend pointed out something from "The Book of Nod." The savior
> > of the world from Gehenna will be a woman born with a crescent moon mark.
>
> > Remember that the Embrace is a kind of rebirth and the Malkavians are the
> > Clan of the moon.
Garou Theurges are also born "bearing the mark" of a crescent moon.
Ah, yes, now it's all coming together....
Regards,
Justin
--
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"Please don't worry, there'll be no fuss. She was nobody's nothing."
Morrissey, "Lifeguard Sleeping, Girl Drowning"
last name: Anthony
Good point - if you want some good examples of this, read the Malkavian
Prankthology:
http://www.nauticom.net/users/erehwon/resource/prank/prank.html
An example:
290. Go completely lucid for a whole minute. Tell everyone exactly what
you think of them, exactly what is going on, and some little tidbit that
nobody has been looking at (ask the GM for something minor).
-Chris "With a name like 'DerF', you think he's a Ventrue?" Anthony
Boedyn LOC
In article <50t26p$c...@library.airnews.net>, r...@airmail.net (Kestrel the
Fairly Decent Dragon) writes:
>
>Hmm... a possibility. Of course, getting the Malfean to actually help
>directly is nearly impossible (assuming, of course, their power
>doesn't take them beyond the need for fetters).
>
So, to the Antedeluvians nearly anything is possible. Augustus has
Necromacy 10 - basicly a Devils pact. Consider the possibility that he
may have used this devil's pacts to basicly bind one (or more) Mealfeans
to do his bidding. It would requires skill and luck on Augustus' part, but
it is possible. In this case their would be no negotation - Augustus
would simply say "Eat Necropolis Edinbough" and the Mealfean would have to
comply (maby thats why "Necropolis Edinbough never matteralized).
One he had one Melafean under a Devils pact, each one in the future
would be easier.
Baring the revelation about Gargool in "Sandmen," what if Gorgool was
doing the bidding of Augustus. After all, the Giovanni and the Hieracy
goals are at odds with each other.
Their is probably not a Hieracy Necropolis for Venice - the Giovanni
probably controll all the Wraiths.
What do you say Kestrel?
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Jesse...@Brown.EDU (Jesse Mazer) wrote:
>All this reminds me of discussions I've had with certain friends regarding
>the Final Reckoning between the Antediluvians. My friend Phil thinks
>Assam and Giovanni would be the toughest, because of Quietus and
>Necromancy. Level 10 Quietus allows you to blood-bond someone with one
>drink, and 10 Necromancy is basically the devil's power to take souls in
>exchange for tasks. He said, "Can you imagine how many souls Augustus
>Giovanni would have by now?"
He has a point.
>I say Assamites are for twinks and Giovanni only has power over fools.
Or the dead, who tend to outnumber the Kindred. As for the Assamites,
saying that they'll lose simply because a lot of people power-game
with them doesn't mean they're not powerful, only that few people can
play them correctly.
>The Ass-mite clanbook only convinced me further how much of a paper tiger
>that clan is, and the Giovanni clanbook had better be a work of genius to
>make me think that clan is worth anything.
Try playing them sometime.
>My belief is that the more physical you are, the worse off you are, since
>Gehenna, as someone posted before, is not likely to come down to direct
>physical confrontation. So as much as I like Troile, he/she is probably
>toast.
Don't know about that. Presence is always fun, and then there's the
joy of celerity. You're probably right about Troile not being a major
contender, though. Nobody's heard much from her since Carthage. She
may even be dead.
>And there are only two clans with solely mental Disciplines: the
>Malkavians and Tremere. Okay, so the Setites have three mentals too, but
>Serpentis blows. My money goes on Malkav and Tremere being the two
>biggest shitkickers in the arena. Malkav's power to tweak reality is
>something all right, but saying Malkav can arbitrarily will someone out of
>existence is a little extreme. Anyone with the inherent power of an
>Antediluvian would probably be resistant to most of this reality-rending,
>but only Tremere with his magical training would be able to give back as
>good as he got. There is a reason that Malkavians are insane and
>fractious and lots don't even recognize they're a clan: they'd be too
>powerful! Likewise, the power of the Tremere has to be diluted to make
>the game fair: the schism between Goratrix and the other councilors, the
>rumors of Tremere's "transformation", the rigid pyramid structure... Most
>tellingly, they have more enemies than you can shake a stick at: the
>Inconnu, the Assamites, the True Hand, Old Clan Tzimisce, and just about
>everyone else. These groups, all extremely powerful, recognize how much
>of a threat the Warlocks are. The Tremere are all about power, and it all
>culminates at the top of the pyramid, with the Magus himself.
Malkav, IMO, is the front-runner. He's got the power, even if he
doesn't quite have it under control. Tremere may have another somebody
in his head, so he's got some serious problems coming up.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Justin R Achilli <jach...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Jesse Mazer <Jesse...@Brown.EDU> wrote in article
>> <Jesse_Mazer-08...@bootp-171.marcy.brown.edu>...
>> >
>> > My best friend pointed out something from "The Book of Nod." The savior
>> > of the world from Gehenna will be a woman born with a crescent moon mark.
>>
>> > Remember that the Embrace is a kind of rebirth and the Malkavians are the
>> > Clan of the moon.
>Garou Theurges are also born "bearing the mark" of a crescent moon.
>Ah, yes, now it's all coming together....
<wonders if this means some dorks are going to say their Theurge
Abomination Malkavians are the only things that can save the WoD>
Eborium
> >Hmm... a possibility. Of course, getting the Malfean to actually help
> >directly is nearly impossible (assuming, of course, their power
> >doesn't take them beyond the need for fetters).
> >
> So, to the Antedeluvians nearly anything is possible. Augustus has
> Necromacy 10 - basicly a Devils pact. Consider the possibility that he
> may have used this devil's pacts to basicly bind one (or more) Mealfeans
> to do his bidding.
Binding Malfeans? In your dreams! The average Malfean is several millenia
older than Augustus with power to match. The only reason they would deal
with someone so insignificant would be to screw him over.
And I'd dispute that `to the Antedeluvians nearly anything is possible.'
bit.
Eborium
jbu...@capricorn.kent.edu
In article <01bb9e90$890b02a0$4d31...@rons.janna.com>, "Ron Sharp" <rons...@janna.com> writes:
|>
|>
|> Jesse Mazer <Jesse...@Brown.EDU> wrote in article
|> <Jesse_Mazer-08...@bootp-171.marcy.brown.edu>...
|> >
|> > My best friend pointed out something from "The Book of Nod." The savior
|> > of the world from Gehenna will be a woman born with a crescent moon mark.
|>
|> > Remember that the Embrace is a kind of rebirth and the Malkavians are the
|> > Clan of the moon.
|> >
|> a Malkavian.
It never says that; the narrator claims to be a member of a bloodline that has
the same (general) Disciplines as the present day Malkavians (not the original
ones) and people leaped to that conclusion.
|>
|> So if ...
|> (a) The Malkavians are a bunch of silly loons, then it's a wonderful prank.
If he is a Malkavian, his Derangement would seem to be Obsession with history,
which would make him extremely honest. Contrary to the Clanbook, not all
Malkavians are "silly loons".
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
Jason Corley
jbu...@capricorn.kent.edu wrote:
: If he is a Malkavian, his Derangement would seem to be Obsession with history,
: which would make him extremely honest.
Not necessarily. In fact that's a great Malkavian concept: the one
obsessed with his version of history and showing how _THEY_ have altered
history in order to make his version seem untrue. A revisionist. Yeah.
Great concept.
(of course, the nwo _did_ change history, but that's a whole nother horse
race)
--
"Dullness marked the beginning of our tale, dullness marked the thread of
it, and dullness more than permeates it's end altogether we've all had a
dern dull time of it, ain't we? Yezza." ----Geo. Herriman
Jason D. "cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley was here but now he's gone.
Andy Land
In article <510m7o$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, GSaracco
<gsar...@aol.com> writes
I'm not saying I dislike the Tremere.....
There's no point.....my actions speak for me.
See you later hedge wizard.
fisk - Tzimisce
--
Andy Land
Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:in...@turnpike.com