Paths and Wyrm-taint
Tim Delvecchio
> I wondered what people think about whether all the Paths of Enlightenment
> would be automatically Wyrm-tainted and which Dark Ages Roads would be. I'd
> also like an official answer, if possible, but I'd like to know everyone's
> opinion.
>
> Kish
According to WW, all vampires who follow a Path of Enlightenment show Wyrm
taint. You must have Humanity to escape the clutches of the Wyrm. Of course,
WW also says that Sabbat Gangrel don't necessarily show Wyrm taint. One of
their many rules conflicts. Use whatever you think works best for your
chronicle, or ask your ST.
As to Dark Ages Roads, they haven't really been covered. The Wyrm-taint thing
is mainly detailed in Werewolf products, and there aren't any for W:tDA. I'd
say that with a path rating of 7+ there's no taint, 4+ for Gangrel. That's what
I use in my game.
Father Tim
Destil
Remember I am posting from LARP Rules
Gangrel with Beast Traits (e.g. not on a Path of Enlightenment)
detect as Wyrm-tainted once they obtain their third Beast Trait (as
opposed to two for other Kindred).
Normal Kindred on any Path of Enlightenment detect as Wyrm-tainted
and as a servant of the Wyrm when they reach three Path Traits.
Therefor, this is how I would rule, any Gangrel on a Path of
Enlightenment would not show as Wyrm-tainted until they receive their
second Path Trait, except for City Gangrel. The reason I exclude City
Gangrel from that normal Gangrel advantage, when dealing with Garou, is
because they have forsaken their "nature" and embraced the city
lifestyle and attitude.
--
__________________________________________
visit the official Embraced Network Site
at http://www.embraced.net
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kis...@mindspring.com
officially, Dark Ages vampires who follow the Roads of Humanity, Heaven and
Chivalry with ratings of 7+ are not Wyrm-tainted. In the modern day, every
single Path is Wyrm-tainted, because every single remaining Path accepts the
vampire's nature on some level.
Now I might as well post what I use in my chronicles. Most Paths are
Wyrm-tainted. The Paths of Harmony and Self-Focus are not--not unless the
rating is 3 or below, at which point the character is being eaten by the
Beast. The Paths of Blood and Honorable Accord might be; it depends on the
individual (the Path rating is actually pretty irrelevant). For the Path of
Honorable Accord, a follower is Wyrm-tainted unless his/her actions would
reflect a Humanity score greater than 7 (*really* unlikely for Sabbat). A
follower of the Path of Blood is a slightly different case. Such a follower
who keeps the ideals of saving Humanity firmly in mind and whose actions are
those of a hero rather than a monster will not be Wyrm-tainted, even though
killing is part of that Path. Finally, I'm keeping the suggestion from the
old Sabbat Storyteller's Handbook that followers of Power and the Inner
Voice have the potential to achieve Golconda...and while virtually every
Unifier is Wyrm-tainted, the few who are candidates for Golconda are not.
There. That's how I handle all of them; I'm a little uncertain of how to
handle the Path of the Feral Heart, as it's so new, but I'll likely wind up
making it non-Wyrm-tainted, at least at some level.
Kish
Stiff, Dried, Creaking Monkey
Wyrm tainted. I have always been of the opinion that all things have a
place, even vampires, and I don't think too many of them are bent upon
Gaia's destruction. They drink blood, as do the beasts Gaia holds (or seems
to hold) dearest - most of the Changing Breeds are carnivores. They
reproduce, as do all animals.
Sorry, the whole idea of Caine's "Original Sin" tainting everyone who has
had some Eurotrash fag kill them and pour their blood down their throat,
when they have no choice in the matter. A person who has this happen to
them, and learns to accept this, seems to me to be a whole lot more in tune
with nature and the world than someone who fights it and pretends that their
something that they are not. Those of the Feral Heart should be honored as
hunters on par with the Bastet. But that would be in a world that would
make sense, and the WOD makes less sense than this one.
As a matter of fact, the Kuei-jin ought to have more throuble with the
shifters than the Kindred, because the KJ *know* that they fucked up
royally, did something evil and bad and that's why their back.
In my games, however, it's not that cut and dried, mainly 'cause Lupines
make such kick-ass enemies for the vampires, teaching them that their not
the kings of the world. Pretty much any Garou in my game will take out any
Kindred, Wyrm taint or no, they rarely bother to check if they know that
they're Kindred. however, I genrally have wyrm taint show up on Cathari,
Evil Revelations, and otherwise, it depends on the vampire. There are
vampires with hih Humanity who could conceivably register as Wyrm tainted.
Plus, I had a Garou try to sniff a high Path of Paradox lick. Fun, fun,
fun when I told him he smelled like "cinnamon ice cream with won-ton sup."
No offese intended to any Eurotrash or fags here, I've been called both on
many occasions (not entirely wrongly).
Peace,
Tamdakh
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Shogun XCT
part of the Wyrm it reeks of.
Remember Vampires are initially of the Wyrm.
The Beast~of~War: gives them the gift of frenzy.
The Eater~of~Souls: which gives them their hunger.
Sometimes they reek of The~Defiler~Wyrm
High Humanity Scores are people who supress all these aspects of the Wyrm.
The beast of war is supressed by and non-violent attitude and fear of frenzy.
The Eater of Souls is kept at bay by non-gluttonous feeding, and keeping the
beast down.
The Defiler Wyrm turns up in vampires from time to time.
The Path of the Feral Heart is tainted. Vampires are humans who, by the curse
of caine and their chosen path, have given into the beast of war. Their way of
life is unnatural.
Garou are Feral and Wyld by birth. It is in their nature thats why they aren't
initially tainted. Garou know what the wyrm is and make a conscious attempt to
fight the wyrm within themselves everyday. Most Vampires do not.
Geoffrey Brent
<7cphnv$i54$1...@camel15.mindspring.com>...
> If anybody's interested, Ethan Skemp just posted on the Werewolf-L list
that
> officially, Dark Ages vampires who follow the Roads of Humanity, Heaven
and
> Chivalry with ratings of 7+ are not Wyrm-tainted. In the modern day,
every
> single Path is Wyrm-tainted, because every single remaining Path accepts
the
> vampire's nature on some level.
And as every werewolf knows, accepting nature is bad ;-)
> Now I might as well post what I use in my chronicles. Most Paths are
> Wyrm-tainted. The Paths of Harmony and Self-Focus are not--not unless
the
> rating is 3 or below, at which point the character is being eaten by the
> Beast. The Paths of Blood and Honorable Accord might be; it depends on
the
> individual (the Path rating is actually pretty irrelevant). For the Path
of
> Honorable Accord, a follower is Wyrm-tainted unless his/her actions would
> reflect a Humanity score greater than 7 (*really* unlikely for Sabbat).
Actually, this seems like a reasonable enough test for _any_
path. With a few modifiers to reflect the difference between
human and Garou values, but those are really necessary for
Humanity anyway - you can have Humanity 7 and bulldoze
a caern...
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
<6NYH2.9662$EF1.44991734@WReNphoon1>...
> Sorry, the whole idea of Caine's "Original Sin" tainting everyone who has
> had some Eurotrash fag kill them and pour their blood down their throat,
> when they have no choice in the matter. A person who has this happen to
> them, and learns to accept this, seems to me to be a whole lot more in
tune
> with nature and the world than someone who fights it and pretends that
their
> something that they are not. Those of the Feral Heart should be honored
as
> hunters on par with the Bastet. But that would be in a world that would
> make sense, and the WOD makes less sense than this one.
Hmmmm. Has anybody considered inventing a new gift: Sense
Tragic Angst?
Brandon Quina
> Actually, this seems like a reasonable enough test for _any_
> path. With a few modifiers to reflect the difference between
> human and Garou values, but those are really necessary for
> Humanity anyway - you can have Humanity 7 and bulldoze
> a caern...
Bulldozing a caern, however, wouldn't necessarily make you show up as
wyrm-tainted. Sure, the Garou would kill you anyway for disturbing
their sacred ground, but that doesn't mean that you literally smell of
evil! Remember, lots of humans do really stupid things just out of
blase human nature; nothing to do with serving the entity of corruption
incarnate.
Brandon,
man...@geocities.com
Tim Delvecchio <6179...@3web.net> wrote:
> kis...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > I wondered what people think about whether all the Paths of Enlightenment
> > would be automatically Wyrm-tainted and which Dark Ages Roads would be. I'd
> > also like an official answer, if possible, but I'd like to know everyone's
> > opinion.
> >
> > Kish
>
> According to WW, all vampires who follow a Path of Enlightenment show Wyrm
> taint.
Where? All it says in Werewolf is that Humanity less than seven is Wyrm
tainted. But in most cases Path can replaces Humanity. Plenty of powers say
things like "difficulty is target's Humanity" but if you target a Path vampire
you would use their Path instead.
Using VRev I would say any Path with Consience as a virtue. So Honorable
Accord and Harmony wouldn't. I would think Self-Focus would have Consicence
too.
Mant
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
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Silverfeet
sentence saying that if you are on a Path of Enlightenment, you equate to having a
Humainty Rating of 3 or less for the purposes of being detected as Wyrm-Tainted.
This I disagree with. As I have said, it contradicts the idea of both the Beast-Path
relationship and the Wyrm that is set up in four different rulebooks (V2, VDA,
Werewolf and Mage).
The person who discussed the LRP rules: I don't LRP myself but from my experience of
people who do both (back home I am in the minoroty of players who don't LRP and do
tabletop) the rules systems don't mix well. What is appropriate for WW LRP doesn't
seem to fit with tabletop so the Beast Traits won't help. Especially given the set
up of vampires like the Gangrel, Nosferatu and others in tabletop..
Robin
Tim Delvecchio <6179...@3web.net> wrote:
> kis...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > I wondered what people think about whether all the Paths of Enlightenment
> > would be automatically Wyrm-tainted and which Dark Ages Roads would be. I'd
> > also like an official answer, if possible, but I'd like to know everyone's
> > opinion.
> >
> > Kish
>
> According to WW, all vampires who follow a Path of Enlightenment show Wyrm
> WW also says that Sabbat Gangrel don't necessarily show Wyrm taint. One of
> their many rules conflicts. Use whatever you think works best for your
> chronicle, or ask your ST.
>
> As to Dark Ages Roads, they haven't really been covered. The Wyrm-taint thing
> is mainly detailed in Werewolf products, and there aren't any for W:tDA. I'd
> say that with a path rating of 7+ there's no taint, 4+ for Gangrel. That's
> I use in my game.
>
> Father Tim
>
>
In my games, there is no direct connection between a given path of
enlightenment and wyrm taint. All vampires are wyrm tainted per se, and only
their actions may speak for them. After all, every werewolf using his senses
will find out very quickly that the person in question does not breathe, has
no heart beat and does not smell right. For most, that should spell w-y-r-m.
Connecting the wyrm taint to the path would make it more objective than it
actually is. Wyrm taint is in the eye of the beholder first and foremost.
Robin
GeneSys general roleplaying rules system & World of Darkness resources
http://homestead.dejanews.com/user.robin_pfeifer/home.html
robin_...@my-dejanews.com
Alik Widge
"Geoffrey Brent" <g.b...@NOS.PAM.student.unsw.edu.au> wrote:
>Hmmmm. Has anybody considered inventing a new gift: Sense
>Tragic Angst?
Are you mad? (Wait. Never mind, I know the answer to that.) The first
person to try using such a gift would have their head explode due to
the sheer volume of positive response.
Alik
Ethan Skemp
>
> kis...@mindspring.com wrote in article
> > In the modern day, every
> > single Path is Wyrm-tainted, because every single remaining Path accepts
> > the vampire's nature on some level.
>
> And as every werewolf knows, accepting nature is bad ;-)
If vampires were part of Nature, then maybe they wouldn't show up on the
ol' spiritual Geiger counters. It's that whole "should not be" factor
that gets the werewolves' loincloths in a knot.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
JGWalkerJr
>Ethan Skemp
>WWGS
Okay, Ethan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rage of Werewolves
originally something given to them by the Wyrm? Garou are, IMHO, products of
the Wyld, the Wyrm, and the Weaver. Just like Gaia, which they work to
protect. The whole Garou notion of saving the planet by killing one of the
three entities responsible for it's creation and maintenance is, to put it
mildly, insane.
So, following that line of thought, why the heck are Vamps inherently not a
part of nature. After all, the Wyrm is very much a part of nature.
On the notion of paths, there is a definate line between paths which
surpress/control/master the things Garou call wyrmy and paths which seek to
promote them. On one side of the divide is Humanity, Harmony, Self Focus,
Scorched Heart, Heaven, Chivalry, and their ilk. On the other is Typhoon, Evil
Revalations, Cathari, and their ilk. With many of the others, it is a
judgement call based on how a particular follower interprets it.
James
Sylvrn_WalksIn_Solitude
Ethan Skemp
> Okay, Ethan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rage of Werewolves
> originally something given to them by the Wyrm?
That or Luna, depending on who you believe.
> Garou are, IMHO, products of
> the Wyld, the Wyrm, and the Weaver. Just like Gaia, which they work to
> protect. The whole Garou notion of saving the planet by killing one of the
> three entities responsible for it's creation and maintenance is, to put it
> mildly, insane.
You are correct, sah.
> So, following that line of thought, why the heck are Vamps inherently not a
> part of nature. After all, the Wyrm is very much a part of nature.
The Wyrm as it *was* was a very vital, important, nay, *irreplacable*
entity in the Grand Scheme of Things. The Wyrm as it *is* is something
that *must* be healed, changed, or somehow dealt with, or Nature itself
is going into the round file.
Vampires, in Garou cosmology, are creatures of the Wyrm as it has
become, not creatures of the original Balance Wyrm.
Killing the Wyrm is insane. Letting its corrupted *servants* run free to
do whatever they like to whomever they choose is equally insane. There's
a big difference.
> On the notion of paths, there is a definate line between paths which
> surpress/control/master the things Garou call wyrmy and paths which seek to
> promote them. On one side of the divide is Humanity, Harmony, Self Focus,
> Scorched Heart, Heaven, Chivalry, and their ilk. On the other is Typhoon, Evil
> Revalations, Cathari, and their ilk. With many of the others, it is a
> judgement call based on how a particular follower interprets it.
Well, morality is something that's meant to be personal anyway, right?
Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
But as always, the official answer is only as good as it is in your
chronicle. Feel free to ignore/revise/pee on it as you like.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Shogun XCT
Humanity rating of 3.
Rage may be something that the wyrm bestowed on the Garou, but that is another
matter. The Garou also adhere to a strict code of morality and ethics: Glory,
Honor, and Wisdom. Read over the Creeds of Glory, Honor, and Wisdom; and
you'll see what I mean. Though the interpritation of this varies with each
individual Garou, in order to gain rank they must exemplify these virtues.
"The Curse of Caine" has bestowed The Beast of War[frenzy] and the Eater of
Souls[the hunger] onto the Kindred.
By Venturing on "the Road of the Beast," "path of Harmony,"or "path of Feral
Heart" the Kindred still does not adhere to the Ethics of the Garou. Hence,
they are nothing like the Garou.
The Kindred on any path has aceppted the Beast-of-War within himself and
attempts to master it throught various inhuman philosophies.
Also the path of Humanity is the only way a Kindred can achieve Glaconlda. This
is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
Anyhow, if the Garou really wants to know, Scent of True Form works wonders,
and Call of the Wyrm flushes those pesky Kindred out.
Rebecca Sutton
> The Kindred on any path has aceppted the Beast-of-War within himself and
>attempts to master it throught various inhuman philosophies.
>
>Also the path of Humanity is the only way a Kindred can achieve Glaconlda. This
>is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
Oh have they changed that in the GttS? Because in the old days
Harmony and PaTIV could. Plus Golconda is accepting the beast... are
Golcondarite vamps tainted? And please, pretty please, don't get me
started on Golconda and the Path of Humanity <sigh> surfice to say I'm
not overly fond of WWs thoughts on the subject. Surfice to say
Humanity is too rigourous and Harmony to lax for me.
Becka
Rebecca Sutton
be...@malcop.u-net.com
http://www.malcop.u-net.com
Brandon Quina
> > So, following that line of thought, why the heck are Vamps inherently not a
> > part of nature. After all, the Wyrm is very much a part of nature.
>
> The Wyrm as it *was* was a very vital, important, nay, *irreplacable*
> entity in the Grand Scheme of Things. The Wyrm as it *is* is something
> that *must* be healed, changed, or somehow dealt with, or Nature itself
> is going into the round file.
>
> Vampires, in Garou cosmology, are creatures of the Wyrm as it has
> become, not creatures of the original Balance Wyrm.
I, personally, disagree with Garou cosmology. I believe that the
Vampires once served a function very similar to the Ratkin. Similar to
how the Kuei-jin once had a place under Heaven, the Kindred once were a
part of the scheme of things. They have forgotten that purpose,
overstepped their bonds, and as a response have become innately corrupt.
My beliefs have the bete as creatures of Gaia, directly, rather than
through one of the Triat. Vampires are creatures of the wyrm, and
they've been corrupted by his fall in many ways. Mages are also
servants of the Wyrm, though they've escaped his corruption with only a
few exceptions and now serve various members of the Triat -- or just
themselves. Changelings and wraiths are creatures of the wyld. The
weaver, though, has only humans for her creatures. They have served her
admirably, though.
Brandon,
if I was going to use garou cosmology as "truth" of course. I sometimes
do, sometimes don't, depending on the game.
Greg Deych
breath...and finds out that all Garou smell of the Wyrm. Not very
usefull, even if true, is it? I usually regard Sense Wyrm as more of
a "This is what feels wrong to the Garou" as opposed to "Absolute and
Utter Evil".
On 18 Mar 1999 19:16:42 GMT, jgwal...@aol.com (JGWalkerJr) wrote:
>Okay, Ethan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rage of Werewolves
>originally something given to them by the Wyrm? Garou are, IMHO, products of
Greg Deych
Call of the Wyrm.
Stunt Borg
> > According to WW, all vampires who follow a Path of Enlightenment
> > show Wyrm taint.
>
> Where? All it says in Werewolf is that Humanity less than seven is
> Wyrm tainted. But in most cases Path can replaces Humanity. Plenty
> of powers say things like "difficulty is target's Humanity" but if
> you target a Path vampire you would use their Path instead.
There's a VRev sentence in the sex section, I believe, that has Path
Vampires pinned to a 3 Humanity rating, tops, on several issues. I
believe that's where the 'all Wyrm-taint, all the time' argument
comes from. It plays into the utterly one-dimensional, just-so
Garou worldview that *obviously* every last single vampire has no
spirit, no soul, and no role of any kind in Gaia's plan whatsoever,
and should be methodically hunted and slain and killed and
smashed and destroyed and eradicated and genocided and exterminated
and did I mention KILLED?
And people wonder why I consider canonical Lupines seriously
overstereotyped, pigeonholed, bigotted, and narrow-minded.
I'll be the first to admit that I find Sense Wyrm the most utterly
ridiculous, overused, plot-busting Gift in existence (just ahead of
Sense the True Form). In far too many damned cases it's used as a
Geiger-counter connected to a combat frenzy-trigger, and my final
solution to the whole stupid mess was to beat it like a red-headed
stepchild until it vaguely conformed to my ideal of making the game
world *more* complex rather than pathetically two-tone.
But if you want to fix the problem without mashing the Gift, an
alternate solution I used to employ was to determine whether or
not the Path/Road of the Vampire had convictions that supported,
ignored, or opposed Gaian ideals. Roads that actively supported
Gaian belief (Beast) needed a 4+ to be taint-free, unrelated
Paths (Humanity, Chivalry, Heaven, Paradox, Self-Focus,
Scorch-Heart, Warrior) needed 7+ to be free, and opposed Paths
(soul drinking Blood, death-obsessed serial-killer Bone, we are
evil so let's Par-tay Cathari, embodiment of vampiric selfishness
Power and the Inner Voice, Diabolis, Typhon, Hyron, etc) needed
10 to be free (*not* because there isn't a ton of taint still
there, but because at 10 the vampire has become so loathsomely
capable at manipulating her Beast, she can actually suppress
her festering taint, appearing 'normal').
In the end, neither of my solutions help my Sabbat much. I like
the idea of the majority of them being at low Humanity, and the
majority of the remainder being at low Path rankings, so I happily
glommed that onto my world. Only the *real* experienced movers and
shakers have a hope of coming off as non-Wyrm tainted, and the sect
as a whole suffers a *lot* more from Lupine depredations (and Hunter
depredations) than does the Camarilla, in my world. Maintaining the
Masquerade is an enormous effort that should pay *dividends*, to
my mind, so in my world it does - the Camarilla vampires are
practically invisible, whereas the less careful Sabbat commit all
the minor slip ups here and there to show up on enemy radar. Good
thing they breed like flies, by comparison :)
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
has this lopsided external predation as one of the main
reasons that the Sabbat has not been able to prevail over
the Camarilla ... and yes, Virginia, the Masquerade is
the Santa Claus making this salvation possible
kis...@mindspring.com
>Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
>the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
>nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
>Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
>off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
>really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
I did indeed, and I really appreciate you telling me.
Kish
kis...@mindspring.com
False statement.
Kish
kis...@mindspring.com
>>is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
>
>Oh have they changed that in the GttS?
They changed it from "Harmony and Power and the Inner Voice are well suited
to Golconda" to "It's rumored that Humanity is needed, but nobody really
knows."
Kish
Destil
a vampire but more accepting what they cannot change, but making
themselves better (having complete control over it) in spite of their
nature.
Any vampire can fully accept that he is of the damned, but it is
your control of your inner Beast and level of humanity retention that
changes that shows the difference between a Path vampire and one who has
found Galconda.
Kintaro Oe
>is mainly detailed in Werewolf products, and there aren't any for W:tDA. I'd
>say that with a path rating of 7+ there's no taint, 4+ for Gangrel. That's what
>I use in my game.
why does everyone give Gangrel a break on the taint? They're still
vampires, for chrisssakes! Not all of them are nice-nice werewolf
lovers.
kabael
my sig will slowly regenerate... give it time...
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/
Kintaro Oe
>who keeps the ideals of saving Humanity firmly in mind and whose actions are
>those of a hero rather than a monster will not be Wyrm-tainted, even though
>killing is part of that Path.
saving humanity? I got a more "Destroy the vampires because it's
Allah's will" kind of vibe. The saving humanity is more toss-in than
anything else.
Kintaro Oe
>and as a servant of the Wyrm when they reach three Path Traits.
>Therefor, this is how I would rule, any Gangrel on a Path of
>Enlightenment would not show as Wyrm-tainted until they receive their
>second Path Trait, except for City Gangrel. The reason I exclude City
>Gangrel from that normal Gangrel advantage, when dealing with Garou, is
>because they have forsaken their "nature" and embraced the city
>lifestyle and attitude.
why why why does everyone give the Gangrel a break? Loving nature
isn't going to help them.
I mean really, from a supernatural POV and from the Garou POV, -all-
vampires are -by- nature Wyrm-tainted because of the Beast. No matter
how nice the vampire, there is still a bit of taint there, it's "in
the blood." Even vampires that have reached Golconda are still
tainted, although they've risen above it.
Kintaro Oe
>initially tainted. Garou know what the wyrm is and make a conscious attempt to
>fight the wyrm within themselves everyday. Most Vampires do not.
no they're not Wyld by birth! They are still Wyrm creatures. They are
still dead, they still drink blood, and they still frenzy. In fact,
each frenzy leaves a mark right on them.
-All- vampires have "the Wyrm" within in them. It is the Beast.
Destil
I believe that the use of all the Mythos, from each different game,
is an important aspect of the game as a whole. As with all religions,
they are a vital, and often driving, force for everything a person who
believes. The mythos themselves are not very important from a
storyteller's perspective, however the truth behind those mythos are.
Religions and theology are a very fun and exciting topic that I
could speak on for hours, but I will try and keep this one short.....
What I would suggest for anyone who wishes to delve deeply into the
theology portion of their game, is that they research (a little at
least) those game myths and create the "Truth" for themselves as
storyteller. It should contain at least some pieces of each religion,
as appropriate for each type of creature, including mortals. As most
often, so it would seem, all legends have some basis of truth to them,
it is just weeding out the tale growth over the course of ages.
Here is a quick example, using my own belief system. This details
mortal society as it actually is, not in the WoD.
No matter what religion you are speaking of (at least the ones I
know about), other than Wiccan (which I am still trying to learn a bit
about) they all have a few things in common. There is one god above the
rest. I cannot recall all of their names, or titles, but if my memory
serves me correctly these are correct.
Greek: Zeus
Egyptian: Ra
Christianity: God
Muslim: Ala (sp?)
Norse: [Thor's Father]
Note that each of these beings are considered at the top of their
respective theological structures. Now below each of these are other
beings. In the Norse, Egyptian and Greek mythos these others are also
called gods, in their respective languages of course. I am uncertain
the correct title by which the Muslims call them. In Christianity they
are called Angels. Each Angel, or god, has a specific charge that is
within his realm, and these they are master over, under the appropriate
"Head" god.
I could explain it deeper if anyone is interested but I would assume
you are already sick of my exercise of linguistics and free speech, so I
will close here.
See how each of the religions have a solid base, which they all
follow to some extent? This thought allows me to believe that all
religions are the same, under different languages, and that more than
likely it is just the translation, or the tale's growth, over the
centuries which has altered that.
Now can you see things in the mythos of garou, vampires, and mortals
that act in a similar matter? You have to decide which is true and
which is false, but my guess is that the truth lands, damn near, in the
center of all of them.
This is long and I hope I made my point clear.....
Just my own opinion
kis...@mindspring.com
>Allah's will" kind of vibe. The saving humanity is more toss-in than
>anything else.
>
like them, you don't like them.
Kish
Geoffrey Brent
<alik.widge-18...@alpha-theta-bp-201.dartmouth.edu>...
And learning a Gift that makes your head explode is in itself
Tragically Angstful. Hmm... chain reaction...
Evil Tyger
Silverfeet wrote in message <36F0DDB9...@bangor.ac.uk>...
>Mant: the section in VRev dealing with alternatives Paths gives you a
single
>sentence saying that if you are on a Path of Enlightenment, you equate to
having a
>Humainty Rating of 3 or less for the purposes of being detected as
Wyrm-Tainted.
>
You might want to reread that, no mention was made of a Garou's Gifts.
Personally, as far it'd go... I'd say that if the Path involves accepting
that you are an unnatural parasite (ie, all Sabbat), you show up at a
difficulty of the Path level. If you are on a Path (including Humanity),
then you show at Path level +3. Demon worshiping and other similarly
over-and-above-bad-and-nasty Paths show at 7 - Rating.
man...@geocities.com
Silverfeet <bsp...@bangor.ac.uk> wrote:
> Mant: the section in VRev dealing with alternatives Paths gives you a single
> sentence saying that if you are on a Path of Enlightenment, you equate to
having a
> Humainty Rating of 3 or less for the purposes of being detected as Wyrm-
Tainted.
You must have a screwy printing then. Mine says 3 or your Path, which ever is
lower, when interacting with humans.
Nothing about Wyrm taint at all.
Mant
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
man...@geocities.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Geoffrey Brent wrote:
> >
> > kis...@mindspring.com wrote in article
> > > In the modern day, every
> > > single Path is Wyrm-tainted, because every single remaining Path accepts
> > > the vampire's nature on some level.
> >
> > And as every werewolf knows, accepting nature is bad ;-)
>
> If vampires were part of Nature, then maybe they wouldn't show up on the
> ol' spiritual Geiger counters. It's that whole "should not be" factor
> that gets the werewolves' loincloths in a knot.
Well to quote one of my vampire characters:
"A creature that can't breed with its own kind without producing a sterile
mutant tells me _I'm_ not natural? Tell me do they train you in hypocracy or
is it in the Garou blood?"
man...@geocities.com
Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > > According to WW, all vampires who follow a Path of Enlightenment
> > > show Wyrm taint.
> >
> > Where? All it says in Werewolf is that Humanity less than seven is
> > Wyrm tainted. But in most cases Path can replaces Humanity. Plenty
> > of powers say things like "difficulty is target's Humanity" but if
> > you target a Path vampire you would use their Path instead.
>
> There's a VRev sentence in the sex section, I believe, that has Path
> Vampires pinned to a 3 Humanity rating, tops, on several issues. I
> believe that's where the 'all Wyrm-taint, all the time' argument
> comes from.
Well since all its talking about is Vampire - Human social interation, who
_that_ gets extrapolated to Garou cosmology is completely beyond me.
> It plays into the utterly one-dimensional, just-so
> Garou worldview that *obviously* every last single vampire has no
> spirit, no soul, and no role of any kind in Gaia's plan whatsoever,
> and should be methodically hunted and slain and killed and
> smashed and destroyed and eradicated and genocided and exterminated
> and did I mention KILLED?
>
> And people wonder why I consider canonical Lupines seriously
> overstereotyped, pigeonholed, bigotted, and narrow-minded.
Of course they are. Most PC Garou I've seen tend to buck the trend. The main
book talks about the hidebound Elders and the younger Garou who frequently
disagree with them. I always saw this sort of bigotry as being very much the
province of the Elders (who tend to dish out renown), with the younger Homid
Garou being much more broad mined and clasehing heads over it a lot.
However, later Werewolf suppliments decided to ignore it, and this Elder/Cub
split in Garou society seems to have been massively downplayed. I shame I
feel.
> I'll be the first to admit that I find Sense Wyrm the most utterly
> ridiculous, overused, plot-busting Gift in existence (just ahead of
> Sense the True Form). In far too many damned cases it's used as a
> Geiger-counter connected to a combat frenzy-trigger, and my final
> solution to the whole stupid mess was to beat it like a red-headed
> stepchild until it vaguely conformed to my ideal of making the game
> world *more* complex rather than pathetically two-tone.
Oh yes. The Book of the Wyrm had some good advice, but if I started runnung a
game again I would drop the whole Gift.
> But if you want to fix the problem without mashing the Gift, an
> alternate solution I used to employ was to determine whether or
> not the Path/Road of the Vampire had convictions that supported,
> ignored, or opposed Gaian ideals. Roads that actively supported
> Gaian belief (Beast) needed a 4+ to be taint-free, unrelated
> Paths (Humanity, Chivalry, Heaven, Paradox, Self-Focus,
> Scorch-Heart, Warrior) needed 7+ to be free, and opposed Paths
> (soul drinking Blood, death-obsessed serial-killer Bone, we are
> evil so let's Par-tay Cathari, embodiment of vampiric selfishness
> Power and the Inner Voice, Diabolis, Typhon, Hyron, etc) needed
> 10 to be free (*not* because there isn't a ton of taint still
> there, but because at 10 the vampire has become so loathsomely
> capable at manipulating her Beast, she can actually suppress
> her festering taint, appearing 'normal').
Nice solution. I would say that someone at 10 of Evil Revs may completely
supress the Beast so it doesn't show up on Sense Wyrm. However being and Evil
SOB will, just as if a human did those actions.
I'd also say anyone in Golconda wouldn't be Wyrm tainted.
man...@geocities.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > On the notion of paths, there is a definate line between paths which
> > surpress/control/master the things Garou call wyrmy and paths which seek to
> > promote them. On one side of the divide is Humanity, Harmony, Self Focus,
> > Scorched Heart, Heaven, Chivalry, and their ilk. On the other is Typhoon,
Evil
> > Revalations, Cathari, and their ilk. With many of the others, it is a
> > judgement call based on how a particular follower interprets it.
>
> Well, morality is something that's meant to be personal anyway, right?
> Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
> the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
> nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
> Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
> off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
> really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
So anyone in Golconda stinks to high heaven, since you only get there by
truly accepting you're vampiric state? Yes they have high Humanity or Path,
but its the acceptance of their vampiric side that allows them to reach that
state. The only hope a vampire has of getting out of their condition _is_ to
accept it.
I've always seen it from exactly the opposite angle. If you are a vampire,
than the act of trying not to be is unnatural. Accepting it is natural.
Of course the Garou have some very, very strange ideas about what is and
isn't "natural". Basically they brand anything they don't like as "unnatural"
and "of the Wyrm". I've yet to see anything that convinces me the Vampires
are any more unnatural than the Garou. If they shat and made good fertaliser
when dead would that be considered "offering something to the world", its
about all most predators and parasites contribute.
Of course a Garou will *think* that any vampire who accepts their state is
going to be Wyrm tainted, but does sense Wyrm reveal the "truth", or is aleast
objective, or does it mearly reflect the prejudices of the Garou using it?
man...@geocities.com
Reb...@wgp.org wrote:
>
> > The Kindred on any path has aceppted the Beast-of-War within himself and
> >attempts to master it throught various inhuman philosophies.
> >
This
> >is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
>
> Harmony and PaTIV could.
Actually the GttS says its up to the ST if a Path vampire can get there.
> Plus Golconda is accepting the beast... are
> Golcondarite vamps tainted? And please, pretty please, don't get me
> started on Golconda and the Path of Humanity <sigh>
Golconda can olny be achieved by accepting the Beast. But to get their a need
to keep my Humanity high and repress it? Go figure.
man...@geocities.com
kab...@bu.edu (Kintaro Oe) wrote:
> >Garou are Feral and Wyld by birth. It is in their nature thats why they
aren't
> >initially tainted. Garou know what the wyrm is and make a conscious attempt
to
> >fight the wyrm within themselves everyday. Most Vampires do not.
>
> no they're not Wyld by birth! They are still Wyrm creatures. They are
> still dead, they still drink blood, and they still frenzy. In fact,
> each frenzy leaves a mark right on them.
>
> -All- vampires have "the Wyrm" within in them. It is the Beast.
So do all Garou, but they don't run around calling every Garou Wyrm tainted.
man...@geocities.com
<kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>Also the path of Humanity is the only way a Kindred can achieve Glaconlda.
> This
> >>is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
> >
> >Oh have they changed that in the GttS?
>
> to Golconda" to "It's rumored that Humanity is needed, but nobody really
> knows."
Of course I Golconda really is about accepting the Beast, Harmony and Feral
Heart would be far _better_ suited than Humanity, which is all about
supressing it and not accepting you are a vampire.
The whole Golconda thing as presented doesn't really make sense. To accept the
besat I have to fell guilty for the bad things I have done and stone for them?
That makes no sense. As presented Golconda is self-contradictory.
Silverfeet
It does say that alternative Paths count as Humanity of 3 and that means that
you're going to have to lump it on Sense Wyrm rolls. Which are performed
against 'Humanity' - even though in V2, alternative Paths existed.
The Livewire
man...@geocities.com wrote in message <7ct4ta$fdv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"A creature that can't breed with its own kind without producing a sterile
>mutant tells me _I'm_ not natural? Tell me do they train you in hypocracy
or
>is it in the Garou blood?"
LOL! This reminds me of the faith Arguement from the Claremont Era New
Mutants. Magma and Empath were arguing about faith. (Magma worships the
Roman gods) And she tells him a tale of her meeting Herc, showing that she
knew she was right.
"So, Amara, you saw your gods. I only have belief in mine. Tell me, who's
faith is stronger?" -Empath.
>Mant
The Livewire
man...@geocities.com
Silverfeet <bsp...@bangor.ac.uk> wrote:
> > You might want to reread that, no mention was made of a Garou's Gifts.
>
> It does say that alternative Paths count as Humanity of 3
For social interactions with humans! Becuase such vampires won't relate to
them well.
> and that means that
> you're going to have to lump it on Sense Wyrm rolls.
No it doesn't. It says _nothing_ that implies it counts for anything other
than social situations.
It also says in most cases Paths subisitute for Humanity.
> Which are performed
> against 'Humanity' - even though in V2, alternative Paths existed.
So? Quite a few Disicpline powers listed "Humanity" as difficulty, but if you
were targetting a Path following vampire you use their Path rating. Just as if
they listed Self-Control you used Instincts if the vampire had that.
Alerante Paths existed in suppliments, not the core rules so its harldy
supprising the Werewolf book doesn't mention them.
kis...@mindspring.com
Silverfeet wrote in message <36F2361B...@bangor.ac.uk>...
>> You might want to reread that, no mention was made of a Garou's Gifts.
>
>It does say that alternative Paths count as Humanity of 3
When interacting with humans. Clipping the sentence in half whenever you
quote it doesn't do your argument any good.
Kish
Ethan Skemp
> Well to quote one of my vampire characters:
>
> "A creature that can't breed with its own kind without producing a sterile
> mutant tells me _I'm_ not natural? Tell me do they train you in hypocracy or
> is it in the Garou blood?"
Sigh...
Mant, I love ya, I really do, but do all your vampires run around with
Garou Lore 6?
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
And yeah, metis *should not be*. If Garou could breed amongst themselves
with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the earth
long around the Impergium. Think about it.
Ethan Skemp
> So anyone in Golconda stinks to high heaven, since you only get there by
> truly accepting you're vampiric state? Yes they have high Humanity or Path,
> but its the acceptance of their vampiric side that allows them to reach that
> state. The only hope a vampire has of getting out of their condition _is_ to
> accept it.
>
> I've always seen it from exactly the opposite angle. If you are a vampire,
> than the act of trying not to be is unnatural. Accepting it is natural.
You're welcome to feel that way. That's a good mentality for a Sabbat
game. However, it's a bit unfair to say that it's the appropriate
mentality for a Werewolf game. The two are very dissimilar in theme,
mood, and all sorts of things. One of those reasons that Justin and I
don't like mixed-bag groups of PCs; one of the factions is going to be
pretty miserable because either the Storyteller is running Vampire or
Werewolf, and not playing on the themes they wanted to explore.
> Of course the Garou have some very, very strange ideas about what is and
> isn't "natural". Basically they brand anything they don't like as "unnatural"
> and "of the Wyrm". I've yet to see anything that convinces me the Vampires
> are any more unnatural than the Garou. If they shat and made good fertaliser
> when dead would that be considered "offering something to the world", its
> about all most predators and parasites contribute.
It's probably hard to explain to most people how the whole "walking
corpse" thing seems unnatural to the Garou, particularly as most people
are largely visually oriented. I personally kind of like all those old
stories that have dogs and horses and other animals reacting poorly to
vampires and the like because they can sense that the undead are not
*right*, where poor ol' half-blind humans don't get it. Of course, that
links back to my firm belief that vampires are something other than
human beings with low body temperatures, unusual allergies, a particular
dietary requirement and cool mutant powers.
> Of course a Garou will *think* that any vampire who accepts their state is
> going to be Wyrm tainted, but does sense Wyrm reveal the "truth", or is aleast
> objective, or does it mearly reflect the prejudices of the Garou using it?
It's a sense. Maybe your senses lie to you. Maybe they don't. Maybe you
see things you want to see. Maybe you don't. But in the Werewolf
cosmology, it's as reliable as hearing is to us.
Really, I don't see why it's much of a problem. If you play Vampire, of
*course* the Lupines are crazed berserkers who are judging your poor
angsty self unfairly. If you play Werewolf, of *course* vampires are
undead starvelings who were created by Weaver and Wyrm as a mockery of
the truly alive. The only contradiction is if you're trying to play both
at the same time -- and to my eyes, that's not unlike trying to play
Call of Cthulhu and Teenagers from Outer Space at the same time. It can
be done with some work, but it's unfair to claim that the two systems
aren't set up to make it happen as easily as possible.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Ethan Skemp
> Really, I don't see why it's much of a problem. If you play Vampire, of
> *course* the Lupines are crazed berserkers who are judging your poor
> angsty self unfairly. If you play Werewolf, of *course* vampires are
> undead starvelings who were created by Weaver and Wyrm as a mockery of
> the truly alive. The only contradiction is if you're trying to play both
> at the same time -- and to my eyes, that's not unlike trying to play
> Call of Cthulhu and Teenagers from Outer Space at the same time. It can
> be done with some work, but it's unfair to claim that the two systems
> aren't set up to make it happen as easily as possible.
Oops, my error. That should be "it's unfair to *complain* that the two
systems aren't set up" etc., etc., etc.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Stiff, Dried, Creaking Monkey
to deny what you said, just respond. Please don't
flame (cowering).
Actually, in most of the pagan style religeons that
you mentioned, the Head Guy was, although the Head
Guy, pretty much equal to the other Gods. Just because
Zeus was the father of the Gods didn't mean that they
didn't defy him or argue with him on an almost
regular basis.
Odin (Thor's father) in Norse mythology was similar.
He was the Cheif of the Gods, but that sure as
Helheim didn't mean that the others always obeyed him.
And when they did, it was out of respect for his
wisdom and power, not fear.
Unfortuneately, I have yet to do an in depth study
of Egyptian religeon, so I'll have to refrain from
any comments about Ra, but in Egyptian mythology,
from what I know, he wasn't even the Head Honcho
all of the time. I think that went to Osiris or
Thoth, but I could really easily be wrong.
As to Christianity, I do not know. I was never
Christian.
In Islam, the lesser powers you speak of are reffered
to as Angels as well, as Islam is basically another
Judeo-Christian religeon, founded on the same Mythos
and the history of good old Abraham the Patriarch.
The Arabic name for them is Mala'ika, probably
derived from the Hebrew Malachim, which I think
is the Hebrew name for Angels. In Islamic mythology,
they differ from Christian Angels (and my knowledge
of Christian Angels is based entirely upon watching
Touched By An Angel a couple of times) because they
have intellect and spirit but no free will. They
serve Allah because they have no choice, really.
I think that's kinda nifty, because they're intelligent
but completely subserviant.
In WOD terms, almost makes you think of Ghouls. (please
dont let me get struck with lightning for saying that!)
In any case, Wicca's not the only religeon without
one big Head Guy or Gal, unless you're in a coven
with a bitchy High Priestess.
Peace,
Tamdakh
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Kintaro Oe
not quite true. It has been implied in the past that Path followers
-might- achieve Golconda, and there is still the optional rule/rumor
that some Paths can still provide that state.
I prefer to keep it to Humanity for the most part. But then again I
like Golconda to be a myth anyway. Meeting a Golcondist vampire is a
rare, rare thing.
Kintaro Oe
>When interacting with humans. Clipping the sentence in half whenever you
>quote it doesn't do your argument any good.
that may be true, but I can -easily- see the point he is making.
Generalizing the sentiment to all uses of Humanity makes a great,
great deal of sense, IMHO.
I'm still torn on the Humanity/Path rating issue. All I know is that
whatever descision is made should be unliateral, affecting -all-
Paths.
Kintaro Oe
the Assamites are much older than Islam (in fact, I would say that
they have an extensive Jewish heritage as well), but I see the Clan as
going through a wild-fire sword-point conversion.
you'll see what I mean if I ever finish the Assamite Clanbook re-do...
Brandon Quina
> In any case, Wicca's not the only religeon without
> one big Head Guy or Gal, unless you're in a coven
> with a bitchy High Priestess.
Yeppers. I'm a big fan of trying to find "common threads" in religion,
due to my belief that it's all just diffrent people looking at the same
thing and forming their own belief of what they see; somewhat similar
to the Malkavian Myth of the Blind Bats and the Elephant.
What he said works, to some degree, for many western religions. If you
start to throw in eastern religion, or african, or native american....
Brandon,
Brandon Quina
> You're welcome to feel that way. That's a good mentality for a Sabbat
> game. However, it's a bit unfair to say that it's the appropriate
> mentality for a Werewolf game. The two are very dissimilar in theme,
> mood, and all sorts of things. One of those reasons that Justin and I
> don't like mixed-bag groups of PCs; one of the factions is going to be
> pretty miserable because either the Storyteller is running Vampire or
> Werewolf, and not playing on the themes they wanted to explore.
I've found that it is possible to mix and match the games, though the
most likely contenders are the Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers. Stories
that do this generally don't have happy endings, and are often quite
tragic. This *is* the world of darkness, and the whole "Vampire hate
Werewolf, vice versa" thing is so ingrained in both real myth and the
games that it "fits" to have that tragic angsty ending!
I've heard people bring the Children of Gaia to this list too, but I've
never viewed them as very "forgiving" when it comes to the enemy.
Maybe, in some instances, a Child of Gaia who actually understands the
Kindred to some degree (Vampire Lore) and knows that they didn't earn
their state and it's not something they necessarily take pleasure in
would think differently. He would still rip apart the tainted vampires,
but he might try to help those that still have some hope. Until, that
is, some Vampire proves that just because he's not wyrm-tainted doesn't
mean that he's a nice guy. There's a *reason* vampires and werewolves
don't get along! Trust each other at your own leisure.
> It's probably hard to explain to most people how the whole "walking
> corpse" thing seems unnatural to the Garou, particularly as most people
> are largely visually oriented.
*chuckles lightly* You're a funny man, Ethan.
> I personally kind of like all those old stories that have dogs and horses and
> other animals reacting poorly to vampires and the like because they can sense
> that the undead are not *right*, where poor ol' half-blind humans don't get
> it.
I like those stories too, and unless a Vampire in my game has a certain
Discipline that starts with an "A", or several dots in Animal Ken, he'll
end up with animals not liking him almost reflexively. I imagine Animal
Ken was an *incredibly* useful skill during the Dark Ages.
You seem to be forgetting one thing, though. Werewolves have to deal
with the same problem. Animals don't like them, either. Even worse,
the really rage-soaked Garou even make humans around them panicky and
discomforted.
Vampires don't have the monopoly on "unnatural". ;0)
> Of course, that links back to my firm belief that vampires are something other
> than human beings with low body temperatures, unusual allergies, a particular
> dietary requirement and cool mutant powers.
I agree, whole-heartedly. I just think that the Garou are being a bit
hypocritical when it comes to their whole "hate all vampires, there
minions of the wyrm". Vampires are not banes, and they might be
wyrm-tainted but there not minions of the wyrm in any way. There are
plenty of reasons to hate the Vampires, why something as silly as
"Wyrm-tainted"??
However, that's okay. The Garou are hypocritical about everything else
so why not this too? *smiles* I just don't see why people like to
ignore the whole "Vampires shit blood and cower like babies in their
havens when they hear about Lupines in the vicinity..."
They do not, and *should not* have a good working relationship. The
number of "treaties" on IRC-roleplaying channels is just sickening to
me. Why can't people just play in two different rooms, one for
werewolves and one for vampires? Why must the hang out around the bar,
bantering about the wyrm and who they ate for lunch?
> It's a sense. Maybe your senses lie to you. Maybe they don't. Maybe you
> see things you want to see. Maybe you don't. But in the Werewolf
> cosmology, it's as reliable as hearing is to us.
I, personally, agree that it is the truth. I didn't once upon a time,
but me and Ethan here had a nice little talk on werewolf-l quite some
time ago and he actually managed to change my mind! :) Weird, eh??
I guess that's why the developer. He knows where he's coming from, and
it's not just, "Well, this is how I like it so this is how it's gonna
be..."
Brandon,
respects that...
Destil
being corrected or having gaps filled in for me.
I understand that the gods of times past did not always do as their
head honcho perscribed, but I also believe that whenever they did
directly cross Zeus in some fashion, they "feared" his reaction,
especially if their "plan" was discovered before it reached its intended
goals.
Again, however, this does not cause it to differ from Christianity,
completely. As the primary example, Lucifer, went against God and look
where he ended up (Some theologens even say that Lucifer was granted
Hell, as opposed to receiving it as punishment). The first Angelic war
should show that their subserviance was, at times, in question and that
his actions were not liked by all his "court."
Prodigal
man...@geocities.com wrote in message <7ct6es$gfo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>I've always seen it from exactly the opposite angle. If you are a vampire,
>than the act of trying not to be is unnatural. Accepting it is natural.
Vampirism is, in at least one sense, very much like Rabies.
And while Rabies may be natural, that does not make it a good thing...
Destil
are significant similarities of one God, or being, above the others,
which all are above man and animal. I won't get into details, but the
only one I have found that does not match is Buddahism (sp?).
That in itself is a misunderstanding, Buddahism isn't a religion.
It is a belief, yes, but a belief of concious thought and command over
one's surroundings, not mythology. From what I have gathered from my
visits to China and Hong Kong I have found that Buddists believe in the
Buddist phillosophy, but another religion when speaking of Gods and the
afterlife (I wish I could remember the name of that religion).
MaDBoy
>
> Geoffrey Brent wrote:
> >
> > kis...@mindspring.com wrote in article
> > > In the modern day, every
> > > single Path is Wyrm-tainted, because every single remaining Path accepts
> > > the vampire's nature on some level.
> >
> > And as every werewolf knows, accepting nature is bad ;-)
>
> If vampires were part of Nature, then maybe they wouldn't show up on the
> ol' spiritual Geiger counters. It's that whole "should not be" factor
> that gets the werewolves' loincloths in a knot.
>
> WWGS
Let's not forget that when a Garou knows someone is a vampire and he
does'nt show up wyrm tainted he is obviously hidding it like the evil
leech that he is.
--
MaDBoy
Remove MADBOY from e-mail address to reply.
"Madboy grips the microphone,
with a fist full of steel"
-Rage Against the Machine
'Fist Full of Steel'
cjsee
humanity and the beast than simply accepting the beast. Because any high
humantiy vamipire has accepted his humanity, the real challenge is the "accepting
the beast" part, so thats the part that seems to get played up, but the humanity
is just as important. A Sabbat vampire is fine with his beast (at least the ones
on paths are), so his challenge would be to realize the importance of his
humanity (which is unlikely on most paths). In the original Sabbat guide, the
path of Harmony (which places equal importance on beast and humanity) is referred
to as basically being the path the Golconda.
man...@geocities.com wrote:
> In article <36f17c68...@news.u-net.com>,
> Reb...@wgp.org wrote:
> >
> > > The Kindred on any path has aceppted the Beast-of-War within himself and
> > >attempts to master it throught various inhuman philosophies.
> > >
> > >Also the path of Humanity is the only way a Kindred can achieve Glaconlda.
> This
> > >is why they show up tainted if they are on any other path.
> >
> > Oh have they changed that in the GttS? Because in the old days
> > Harmony and PaTIV could.
>
> Actually the GttS says its up to the ST if a Path vampire can get there.
>
> > Plus Golconda is accepting the beast... are
> > Golcondarite vamps tainted? And please, pretty please, don't get me
> > started on Golconda and the Path of Humanity <sigh>
>
> Golconda can olny be achieved by accepting the Beast. But to get their a need
> to keep my Humanity high and repress it? Go figure.
>
JGWalkerJr
>> Of course the Garou have some very, very strange ideas about what is and
>> isn't "natural". Basically they brand anything they don't like as
>"unnatural"
>> and "of the Wyrm". I've yet to see anything that convinces me the Vampires
>> are any more unnatural than the Garou. If they shat and made good
>fertaliser
>> when dead would that be considered "offering something to the world", its
>> about all most predators and parasites contribute.
>
>It's probably hard to explain to most people how the whole "walking
>corpse" thing seems unnatural to the Garou, particularly as most people
>are largely visually oriented. I personally kind of like all those old
>stories that have dogs and horses and other animals reacting poorly to
>vampires and the like because they can sense that the undead are not
>*right*, where poor ol' half-blind humans don't get it. Of course, that
>links back to my firm belief that vampires are something other than
>human beings with low body temperatures, unusual allergies, a particular
>dietary requirement and cool mutant powers.
>
My readings on werewolf legends give me the notion that animals are scared
spitless of werecritters because they sense the unnaturalness of them. Poor
old half blind humans don't. I maintain that "Sense Wyrm" is "Sense Affront to
my Reality Paradigm."
James
JGWalkerJr
>> originally something given to them by the Wyrm?
>That or Luna, depending on who you believe.
Hmm. To be honest, unless Past Lives is a *heck* of a lot more informative
than I think it is (Meaning that you too can take Past Lives 5 and gain all
sorts of neato knowledges like Kindred Lore, Wraith Lore, etc because previous
incarnations had them and teach you about them. And you spend xp to keep them.
Twink on. ;) ) or the Garou are just sort of guessing at everything too
because none of them were around then. IMHO, it was the Wyrm, and the Luna
story is just propaganda. Then again, I've always liked the Shadowlord version
of things.
>> Garou are, IMHO, products of
>> the Wyld, the Wyrm, and the Weaver. Just like Gaia, which they work to
>> protect. The whole Garou notion of saving the planet by killing one of the
>> three entities responsible for it's creation and maintenance is, to put it
>> mildly, insane.
>You are correct, sah.
Ah thank you, sah, as only a Southern gentleman cahn.
>> So, following that line of thought, why the heck are Vamps inherently not a
>> part of nature. After all, the Wyrm is very much a part of nature.
>The Wyrm as it *was* was a very vital, important, nay, *irreplacable*
>entity in the Grand Scheme of Things. The Wyrm as it *is* is something
>that *must* be healed, changed, or somehow dealt with, or Nature itself
>is going into the round file.
>Vampires, in Garou cosmology, are creatures of the Wyrm as it has
>become, not creatures of the original Balance Wyrm.
Just an idle question, but how do Garou *know* that vampires weren't around
before the Wyrm went around the bend?
>Killing the Wyrm is insane. Letting its corrupted *servants* run free to
>do whatever they like to whomever they choose is equally insane. There's
>a big difference.
But again, they are "corrupted servants" only from the Garou pov. I could
argue that the Garou, if indeed empowered by the Triat, have become "corrupted
servants" of Gaia, having betrayed their obligations to two of the three
members of the Triat (namely the Weaver and the Wyrm.)
>> On the notion of paths, there is a definate line between paths which
>> surpress/control/master the things Garou call wyrmy and paths which seek to
>> promote them. On one side of the divide is Humanity, Harmony, Self Focus,
>> Scorched Heart, Heaven, Chivalry, and their ilk. On the other is Typhoon,
>Evil
>> Revalations, Cathari, and their ilk. With many of the others, it is a
>> judgement call based on how a particular follower interprets it.
>Well, morality is something that's meant to be personal anyway, right?
>Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
>the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
>nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
>Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
>off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
>really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
Resistance? It's about *mastery* of your state. Let me try to explain. You
are infected with kleptomania. You can, of course, resist the temptations to
steal. But that is not a cure. Mastery provides the "cure" because you gain
the self discipline to overcome that spot of mental illness. Path ratings, in
many cases, are a measure of a Kindred's "mastery" of the very things which
make a vampire inherently wyrmy to our fuzzy friends. Or that's my though on
the matter.
>But as always, the official answer is only as good as it is in your
>chronicle. Feel free to ignore/revise/pee on it as you like.
I was just wanting to hear some rationals. I can accept that it's that way
because the Garou think so, and the gift isn't "Sense Wyrm" but rather "Sense
something that's irksome to my race's little paradigm."
>Ethan Skemp
>WWGS
James
WWGS consumer. ;)
ShdwWlkr01
natural tie to the Wyld that dilutes their Wyrm nature. Though I do not like
the idea that the Wyrm has a moral stance. The Wyrm is a bit to simple a
concept for me to like in the first place ,and it certainly has no place in the
moral complexity of Vampire. Caine is a fallen Wyrm creature, he and his
progeny are lost creatures trying to find some sort of grace out there and a
lot of times giving up hope.
In my game, the only vampires the Werewolves can stand are the Sabbat. They are
"natural", they travel in pacvks, and they fight the horrid "Weaver-vampires"
that fit the Garou stereotype for how vampires act.
Tim
man...@geocities.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > Well to quote one of my vampire characters:
> >
> > "A creature that can't breed with its own kind without producing a sterile
> > mutant tells me _I'm_ not natural? Tell me do they train you in hypocracy or
> > is it in the Garou blood?"
>
> Sigh...
>
> Mant, I love ya, I really do, but do all your vampires run around with
> Garou Lore 6?
No, the vamp in question has about 1 or 2.
But she _does_ know about how Garou reproduction happens, it came up in an IC
discussion with virtually Ronin Glass Walker. For rather complex reasons the
subject had been discussed at rather great length, so the coment was quite
appropriate.
> Ethan Skemp
> WWGS
> And yeah, metis *should not be*. If Garou could breed amongst themselves
> with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the earth
> long around the Impergium. Think about it.
Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing now is it ;)
Ethan Skemp
> > And yeah, metis *should not be*. If Garou could breed amongst themselves
> > with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the earth
> > long around the Impergium. Think about it.
>
> Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing now is it ;)
Sure it is. You don't have to *kill your partner and drain her blood*,
do you?
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Ethan Skemp
> >It's probably hard to explain to most people how the whole "walking
> >corpse" thing seems unnatural to the Garou, particularly as most people
> >are largely visually oriented. I personally kind of like all those old
> >stories that have dogs and horses and other animals reacting poorly to
> >vampires and the like because they can sense that the undead are not
> >*right*, where poor ol' half-blind humans don't get it. Of course, that
> >links back to my firm belief that vampires are something other than
> >human beings with low body temperatures, unusual allergies, a particular
> >dietary requirement and cool mutant powers.
>
> My readings on werewolf legends give me the notion that animals are scared
> spitless of werecritters because they sense the unnaturalness of them. Poor
> old half blind humans don't. I maintain that "Sense Wyrm" is "Sense Affront to
> my Reality Paradigm."
That's your prerogative. Straight-up Werewolf has a different rationale,
but then again, the whole point is that straight-up Werewolf's first
duty is to be consistent with itself. Rules for crossover consistency
are rather secondary in prioriy.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Ethan Skemp
>
> >> Okay, Ethan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rage of Werewolves
> >> originally something given to them by the Wyrm?
>
> >That or Luna, depending on who you believe.
>
> Hmm. To be honest, unless Past Lives is a *heck* of a lot more informative
> than I think it is (Meaning that you too can take Past Lives 5 and gain all
> sorts of neato knowledges like Kindred Lore, Wraith Lore, etc because previous
> incarnations had them and teach you about them. And you spend xp to keep them.
> Twink on. ;) ) or the Garou are just sort of guessing at everything too
> because none of them were around then. IMHO, it was the Wyrm, and the Luna
> story is just propaganda. Then again, I've always liked the Shadowlord version
> of things.
Well, there you go. We keep things in legendary format for the most part
because it keeps things open to interpretation.
The Garou have most of their verification from spirits that *were*
around since then -- Stag, Phoebe, Danu, Fenris and all the rest of them
have very long memories. Of course, most Garou are only dealing with
facets of the greater spirits, but the occasional great Theurge or
Galliard can get some fairly undiluted truth out of the Incarna.
> >Vampires, in Garou cosmology, are creatures of the Wyrm as it has
> >become, not creatures of the original Balance Wyrm.
>
> Just an idle question, but how do Garou *know* that vampires weren't around
> before the Wyrm went around the bend?
Leaving out the whole communion with spirits thing, it's mainly oral
tradition. However, most Ancestor-spirits seem to agree that vampires
started out as living, breathing creatures before Something/Somebody
Went Very Wrong. The Caine story's a little ridiculous, but Helios
definitely has a mad-on for the vampires based on some rationale, and
what he's let slip seems to indicate that the vampires were the Weaver
and Wyrm's little collaboration, a nasty little experiment that went
wrong and wound up undead because neither Wyld nor Gaia were invited to
participate.
I'll put this thing up in proper legendary format sometime.
> >Killing the Wyrm is insane. Letting its corrupted *servants* run free to
> >do whatever they like to whomever they choose is equally insane. There's
> >a big difference.
>
> But again, they are "corrupted servants" only from the Garou pov. I could
> argue that the Garou, if indeed empowered by the Triat, have become "corrupted
> servants" of Gaia, having betrayed their obligations to two of the three
> members of the Triat (namely the Weaver and the Wyrm.)
Actually, the Garou aren't obligated to *any* of the Triat members. The
Furies make a big deal of protecting the Wyld, but in many ways they do
that because the Wyld is weak and the others are strong. They're
striving to keep things balanced -- playing Balance Wyrm, if you will.
> >Well, morality is something that's meant to be personal anyway, right?
> >Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
> >the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
> >nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
> >Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
> >off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
> >really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
>
> Resistance? It's about *mastery* of your state. Let me try to explain. You
> are infected with kleptomania. You can, of course, resist the temptations to
> steal. But that is not a cure. Mastery provides the "cure" because you gain
> the self discipline to overcome that spot of mental illness. Path ratings, in
> many cases, are a measure of a Kindred's "mastery" of the very things which
> make a vampire inherently wyrmy to our fuzzy friends. Or that's my though on
> the matter.
None of the Sabbat Paths, however, seem to count towards this. Carrying
your analogy, the Sabbat Paths seem to be a way of saying "Steal on
schedule -- Tuesdays and Thursdays only." Even the ethics of, say, the
Path of the Feral Heart seem to include "you *must* steal when you need
something."
Now, if stealing is a sin that weighs on your heart, how exactly are
these Paths ways to keep free of that sin?
> >But as always, the official answer is only as good as it is in your
> >chronicle. Feel free to ignore/revise/pee on it as you like.
>
> I was just wanting to hear some rationals. I can accept that it's that way
> because the Garou think so, and the gift isn't "Sense Wyrm" but rather "Sense
> something that's irksome to my race's little paradigm."
One of the major points of the Werewolf game is that what transpires in
the physical world affects the spiritual. Corruption creates blight;
compassion can heal both the physical and the non-material. The concept
of the Wyrm, and of spiritual taint that can cling to creatures and
entities that behave in a destructive, corruptive fashion, is very
integral. What you do is *very* important, because even apathy is
corruptive.
As it is, the concept of the Wyrm is not a "little paradigm" -- it's the
foundation of the game. You might as well jeer at Mage for the ludicrous
concept that belief can change the world, or at Wraith for the idea that
people's spirits might hang around if they have unfinished business.
But that's the nature of the beast. Each game is set up to reinforce the
particulars of its theme, its mood, and its ideas. Werewolf does *not*
play well with Vampire if you want to play up the major themes of each
-- it only works well together if you run with very superficial,
traditional views of each group. (It always baffles me that many folks
assume that the Sabbat would make ideal allies for the Garou; what,
because "they both like to kill things?" What part of a Blood Feast
would any Garou but the most about-to-dance-the-Spiral homicidal Red
Talon approve of?)
As is, I'm probably not going to be able to give you the rationale you
want. The rationales all center on the Werewolf setting and its themes,
as they should. Finding one appropriate to a primarily Vampire-themed
context (*particularly* a Sabbat setting) is near impossible, because
the two games have entirely different senses of scale.
But then again, that's why Vampire books all use the word "Lupines".
Lupines were designed to fit into the Vampire context. Garou weren't.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Brandon Quina
> Well, there you go. We keep things in legendary format for the most part
> because it keeps things open to interpretation.
I like the legends, too. *smiles* I just wish you guys had more of
them. There one of my favorite bits about Werewolf...
> Leaving out the whole communion with spirits thing, it's mainly oral
> tradition. However, most Ancestor-spirits seem to agree that vampires
> started out as living, breathing creatures before Something/Somebody
> Went Very Wrong. The Caine story's a little ridiculous, but Helios
> definitely has a mad-on for the vampires based on some rationale, and
> what he's let slip seems to indicate that the vampires were the Weaver
> and Wyrm's little collaboration, a nasty little experiment that went
> wrong and wound up undead because neither Wyld nor Gaia were invited to
> participate.
Ohhh! I like that....
> I'll put this thing up in proper legendary format sometime.
You'd better, cause I'll definitely start using that if it sounds this
good printed in a book. Very very good! *smiles* You could convince
me the sky was green yesterday, couldn't you??
> Actually, the Garou aren't obligated to *any* of the Triat members. The
> Furies make a big deal of protecting the Wyld, but in many ways they do
> that because the Wyld is weak and the others are strong. They're
> striving to keep things balanced -- playing Balance Wyrm, if you will.
There supposed to serve Gaia, directly, just like the other
shapeshifters, right?? That's how I've always viewed things.
> One of the major points of the Werewolf game is that what transpires in
> the physical world affects the spiritual. Corruption creates blight;
> compassion can heal both the physical and the non-material. The concept
> of the Wyrm, and of spiritual taint that can cling to creatures and
> entities that behave in a destructive, corruptive fashion, is very
> integral. What you do is *very* important, because even apathy is
> corruptive.
>
> As it is, the concept of the Wyrm is not a "little paradigm" -- it's the
> foundation of the game. You might as well jeer at Mage for the ludicrous
> concept that belief can change the world, or at Wraith for the idea that
> people's spirits might hang around if they have unfinished business.
Yeppers. You might as well take away blood drinking and collapse into
damnation from Vampire. You might as well take away happy dreamlives in
which you inevitable fall to banality and become a mundane boring member
of the world until you eventually die and climb back into the torture
chamber for *another* go at the whole roller coaster ride.
You can't do that, or it's just not the same game anymore. It's
Werewolf: "The Apocalypse". "Nine feet fuzzies that kill things."
> But then again, that's why Vampire books all use the word "Lupines".
> Lupines were designed to fit into the Vampire context. Garou weren't.
I've never taken Lupines as anything *diffrent*. There just the
vampires biased misunderstood views of the Werewolves. Similar to how
"Leeches" are just the werewolves biased misunderstood views of the
Vampires.
Neither group would be happy friendly if they DID learn the secrets of
the other, but it would be somewhat different... Not much, but a
little...
Brandon,
JGWalkerJr
I will grant you that. But I'm not asking for rules. Just for opinions.
James
JGWalkerJr
>> >> Okay, Ethan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rage of Werewolves
>> >> originally something given to them by the Wyrm?
>> >That or Luna, depending on who you believe.
>> Hmm. To be honest, unless Past Lives is a *heck* of a lot more informative
>> than I think it is (Meaning that you too can take Past Lives 5 and gain all
>> sorts of neato knowledges like Kindred Lore, Wraith Lore, etc because
>previous
>> incarnations had them and teach you about them. And you spend xp to keep
>them.
>> Twink on. ;) ) or the Garou are just sort of guessing at everything too
>> because none of them were around then. IMHO, it was the Wyrm, and the Luna
>> story is just propaganda. Then again, I've always liked the Shadowlord
>version
>> of things.
>Well, there you go. We keep things in legendary format for the most part
>because it keeps things open to interpretation.
Right. And my arguement is the Garou, like everybody else, are chasing an
interpretation as opposed to an objective truth.
>The Garou have most of their verification from spirits that *were*
>around since then -- Stag, Phoebe, Danu, Fenris and all the rest of them
>have very long memories. Of course, most Garou are only dealing with
>facets of the greater spirits, but the occasional great Theurge or
>Galliard can get some fairly undiluted truth out of the Incarna.
I don't know how spirit memories work. But I do know how our memories work.
And according to what I know of the Umbra, it and it's inhabitants are changed
by events of the physical world. Human memory isn't some static thing. It's
frighteningly malleable. Every time you access a memory, it changes slightly.
So look at it this way. Knows-a-Lot, a high ranking Theurge, gives out all
manner of lore to impressionable young cubs. And they get more information
through the oral traditions of the Galliards. Well, stories are affected by
the opinions of the person telling them. So over the course of generations,
the stories become less and less factual accounts and more and more stylized
accounts. The heroes become more two dimensional, as do the villians. Read
Beowulf or The Epic of Gilgamesh to see what I'm talking about.
Well, since the spirit world is affected by the physical, the beliefs of the
Garou start affecting the spirits. So the accounts of these spirits in turn
become less reliable, because the spirits themselves are changed by the beliefs
of the Garou. And that's assuming that spirits, unlike the rest of us, have
memories that do not alter over time. That spirits are, in fact, static
entities incapable of growth or change. Which, considering some spirits have
grown to become totems, is clearly not the case.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
>> >Vampires, in Garou cosmology, are creatures of the Wyrm as it has
>> >become, not creatures of the original Balance Wyrm.
>> Just an idle question, but how do Garou *know* that vampires weren't around
>> before the Wyrm went around the bend?
>Leaving out the whole communion with spirits thing, it's mainly oral
>tradition. However, most Ancestor-spirits seem to agree that vampires
>started out as living, breathing creatures before Something/Somebody
>Went Very Wrong. The Caine story's a little ridiculous, but Helios
>definitely has a mad-on for the vampires based on some rationale, and
>what he's let slip seems to indicate that the vampires were the Weaver
>and Wyrm's little collaboration, a nasty little experiment that went
>wrong and wound up undead because neither Wyld nor Gaia were invited to
>participate.
>I'll put this thing up in proper legendary format sometime.
I'd be interested in reading it.
>> >Killing the Wyrm is insane. Letting its corrupted *servants* run free to
>> >do whatever they like to whomever they choose is equally insane. There's
>> >a big difference.
>> But again, they are "corrupted servants" only from the Garou pov. I could
>> argue that the Garou, if indeed empowered by the Triat, have become
>"corrupted
>> servants" of Gaia, having betrayed their obligations to two of the three
>> members of the Triat (namely the Weaver and the Wyrm.)
>Actually, the Garou aren't obligated to *any* of the Triat members. The
>Furies make a big deal of protecting the Wyld, but in many ways they do
>that because the Wyld is weak and the others are strong. They're
>striving to keep things balanced -- playing Balance Wyrm, if you will.
If Gaia is dependant upon the Triat for survival, then the Garou would seem to
have some obligation to the Triat. After all, they made her. And they can
un-make her. Where would the Garou be then?
>> >Well, morality is something that's meant to be personal anyway, right?
>> >Kish asked for the "official" answer, and the "official" answer is that
>> >the vampiric nature as it is, being an undead parasite that offers
>> >nothing to the world yet feeds off the vitality of the living, is of the
>> >Wyrm. If you resist your vampiric state, you have a chance of shrugging
>> >off Wyrm-taint. If you acknowledge your vampiric state, you're not
>> >really trying to climb out of the muck, as it were.
>> Resistance? It's about *mastery* of your state. Let me try to explain.
>You
>> are infected with kleptomania. You can, of course, resist the temptations
>to
>> steal. But that is not a cure. Mastery provides the "cure" because you
>gain
>> the self discipline to overcome that spot of mental illness. Path ratings,
>in
>> many cases, are a measure of a Kindred's "mastery" of the very things which
>> make a vampire inherently wyrmy to our fuzzy friends. Or that's my though
>on
>> the matter.
>None of the Sabbat Paths, however, seem to count towards this. Carrying
>your analogy, the Sabbat Paths seem to be a way of saying "Steal on
>schedule -- Tuesdays and Thursdays only." Even the ethics of, say, the
>Path of the Feral Heart seem to include "you *must* steal when you need
>something."
It's more akin to the Kindred saying of "Monsters we are lest monsters we
become." You commit lesser "sins" to avoid greater ones. From the vampiric
perspective, it is giving up a measure of your human identity that you do not
lose all of it to the Beast within. From a Garou perspective, it's accepting a
little taint to avoid a larger portion of it.
Then again, what I read in Outcasts: A Player's Guide to Pariahs, seemed to
indicate that Garou can do some *very* heinous things before they start to show
as wyrm-tainted. Not to mention that the Garou routinely murder, kidnap, and
manipulate humans ---all rather unpleasant things--- in the name of their
personal view of the greater good. From an objective viewpoint, how does that
let them throw stones?
>Now, if stealing is a sin that weighs on your heart, how exactly are
>these Paths ways to keep free of that sin?
>> >But as always, the official answer is only as good as it is in your
>> >chronicle. Feel free to ignore/revise/pee on it as you like.
>> I was just wanting to hear some rationals. I can accept that it's that way
>> because the Garou think so, and the gift isn't "Sense Wyrm" but rather
>"Sense
>> something that's irksome to my race's little paradigm."
>One of the major points of the Werewolf game is that what transpires in
>the physical world affects the spiritual. Corruption creates blight;
>compassion can heal both the physical and the non-material. The concept
>of the Wyrm, and of spiritual taint that can cling to creatures and
>entities that behave in a destructive, corruptive fashion, is very
>integral. What you do is *very* important, because even apathy is
>corruptive.
Exactly. And the perceptions of the inhabitants of the physical world shape
the spiritual world. Just like I said earlier.
>As it is, the concept of the Wyrm is not a "little paradigm" -- it's the
>foundation of the game. You might as well jeer at Mage for the ludicrous
>concept that belief can change the world, or at Wraith for the idea that
>people's spirits might hang around if they have unfinished business.
I'm not jeering at anything, Ethan. Or perhaps it would be better said that
I'm not jeering at just Werewolves. I think each system has it's share of
silliness. But that is neither here nor their. The discussion is on Garou
perceptions of wyrm taint in Kindred and objective reasons behind it.
Besides, from a certain point of view, everything is somebody's little
paradigm. *evil grin*
>But that's the nature of the beast. Each game is set up to reinforce the
>particulars of its theme, its mood, and its ideas. Werewolf does *not*
>play well with Vampire if you want to play up the major themes of each
>-- it only works well together if you run with very superficial,
>traditional views of each group. (It always baffles me that many folks
>assume that the Sabbat would make ideal allies for the Garou; what,
>because "they both like to kill things?" What part of a Blood Feast
>would any Garou but the most about-to-dance-the-Spiral homicidal Red
>Talon approve of?)
To be honest, I don't think that any Kindred make ideal allies for the Garou.
Many of them share goals, but their interactions are more along the lines of
"politics makes strange bedfellows." Gangrel want to keep the wilderness alive
and thriving, as do the Garou. The Camarilla thinks the Sabbat is a bad idea,
as do the Garou (even though they think *both* Camarilla and Sabbat are bad
ideas, I'm certain the Sabbat is a good deal wyrmier in their pov). The
Assamites and the Silent Striders both want to see Set a pile of windblown ash.
Etc.
>As is, I'm probably not going to be able to give you the rationale you
>want. The rationales all center on the Werewolf setting and its themes,
>as they should. Finding one appropriate to a primarily Vampire-themed
>context (*particularly* a Sabbat setting) is near impossible, because
>the two games have entirely different senses of scale.
I'm not asking for a Vampire or Sabbat based viewpoint. I'm asking for your
input on why, Ethan. For some of the contents of that little folder labeled
"Truth: Garou thoughts on." And hopefully the fermentation of those ideas
will enable my games to be better, and if I get really lucky, something that
comes of this thread will spark a notion that makes the Werewolf game as a
whole richer.
>But then again, that's why Vampire books all use the word "Lupines".
>Lupines were designed to fit into the Vampire context. Garou weren't.
Lupines are the Kindred misconception of Garou. As Leeches are the Garou
misconception of Kindred. But they're more alike than either of them would be
comfortable considering. Or that's my opinion.
>Ethan Skemp
>WWGS
James
JGWalkerJr
I think his point is that a species which can only reproduce by killing and
mutating a member of another species is no more freaky than a species that can
only reproduce with members of two other species without producing a sterile,
deformed offspring
James.
JSpektr
>
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > > And yeah, metis *should not be*. If Garou could breed amongst themselves
> > > with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the earth
> > > long around the Impergium. Think about it.
> >
> > Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing now is it ;)
>
> Sure it is. You don't have to *kill your partner and drain her blood*,
> do you?
You say it as if there's something wrong with doing so...
JSpektr - now, wanting to mate with a freakishly distorted, hairy,
half-human, half-wolf monstrousity, that's just kinky. Imagine the
hairballs you'd get.
kis...@mindspring.com
SNRLikthya wrote in message
<19990322214532...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
>Hey, don't forget about some specis of frogs that actually change sexes!!
Proof that Vicissitude is not of the Wyrm! (ducks)
Kish
Geoffrey Brent
themselves
>> > with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the
earth
>> > long around the Impergium. Think about it.
>>
>> Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing now is it ;)
>
>Sure it is. You don't have to *kill your partner and drain her blood*,
>do you?
Well, some female spiders do precisely that to their mates.
Then there are ichneumon wasps, which paralyse caterpillars
and lay their eggs inside. Another sort of bug whose name
I've forgotten doesn't mate at all, since all members of the
species are female; when one is born the larvae are already
alive inside her, and as they grow they eat their way out of
their own mother, eventually killing her in the process.
There are bacteria with fifty-odd different sexes; mammals
that lay eggs; sea-horses, where the males effectively give
birth to the young. If that's not enough, there is - or was,
until some habitat-destruction a few years ago - the gastric
brooding frog, which swallows its own tadpoles and keeps
them safe in its stomach until they turn into frogs, whereupon
they climb out of its mouth again. There are dragonflies whose
penises look something like a swiss army knife, and there are
insects who look for a chrysalis containing a female, cut a hole
in it, and mate with her before she's even emerged.
Reproduction in nature is weirder than anything we could make
up :-)
Geoffrey Brent
SNRLikthya
man...@geocities.com
> > > with impunity, humanity would have been wiped from the face of the earth
> > > long around the Impergium. Think about it.
> >
> > Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing now is it ;)
>
> Sure it is. You don't have to *kill your partner and drain her blood*,
> do you?
Someone else already posted on the many weird and wonderful way reproduction
happens in nature.
However, just becuase vampires reproduce through the embarce doesn't do
anything to make the Changing Breeds wacky reproductive methods any
more "natural". They have to breed with other species. And thats without
mentioning the Corax who can't make more Corax without a rite.
In other words, saying Garou reproduction is natrual becuase vampire
reproduction isn't just doesn't stand up as any sort of argument. OTOH is
exactly the sort of argument I can imagine Garou using ;)
I'm all for the Garou thinking vampires are unnatural. I'm all for the hatred
and bigotry in the WoD and I have no problem at when you say from a Garou
point of view Vampires are unnatural Wyrm Creatures. I'm there 100%. I just
can't see from any slightly objective standpoint how to conclude the Kindred
are more unnatural than the Garou.
I supose from a Werewolf purist point of view, things are "just so". Vampires
are unnatural becuase they just are, and Garou are natural becuase they just
are.
However, even when I'm running "pure" Werewolf with none of the dread
crossover I don't assume they are right. And I love to challange the
characters assumptions and make them really think about them (and the Garou
have _so_ many assumptions, more than just about every other critter). This
strikes me as a really good opportunity of doing just that.
daniel r. lackey
> But then again, that's why Vampire books all use the word "Lupines".
> Lupines were designed to fit into the Vampire context. Garou weren't.
And my Vampire players wonder why I keep bitching at them when characters with no
Lupine Lore start throwing the word "Garou" around like it's going out of style.
--
daniel r. lackey
drla...@mindless.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmdreyfuss/
--
"Be regular and orderly in your life,
that you may be violent and original in your work."
-- Clive Barker
Ethan Skemp
> In other words, saying Garou reproduction is natrual becuase vampire
> reproduction isn't just doesn't stand up as any sort of argument. OTOH is
> exactly the sort of argument I can imagine Garou using ;)
At least there are sperm and egg cells involved.
> I'm all for the Garou thinking vampires are unnatural. I'm all for the hatred
> and bigotry in the WoD and I have no problem at when you say from a Garou
> point of view Vampires are unnatural Wyrm Creatures. I'm there 100%. I just
> can't see from any slightly objective standpoint how to conclude the Kindred
> are more unnatural than the Garou.
I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
a subjective matter.
Oy.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Ethan Skemp
> I think his point is that a species which can only reproduce by killing and
> mutating a member of another species is no more freaky than a species that can
> only reproduce with members of two other species without producing a sterile,
> deformed offspring
I see his point; I happen to heavily disagree. The way you guys are
phrasing it, you're treating vampires like a species -- so doesn't the
fact that they reproduce by killing a member of *another species* and
turning it into one of their own seem even *more* over the top than a
congenital case of inbreeding?
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Alistair J. R. Young
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> (== alphaethan)
praised Shub-Internet thus:
>> I'm all for the Garou thinking vampires are unnatural. I'm all for the hatred
>> and bigotry in the WoD and I have no problem at when you say from a Garou
>> point of view Vampires are unnatural Wyrm Creatures. I'm there 100%. I just
>> can't see from any slightly objective standpoint how to conclude the Kindred
>> are more unnatural than the Garou.
> I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> a subjective matter.
Ah, but whether vampires are, as a matter of fact, *dead* in any
meaningful sense is itself an arguable point...
Alistair
--
Computational Thaumaturge, Deus Machinarum. -- Cerebrate of the Silicon Swarm.
e-mail: avata...@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/
"In the UK, who have a much denser population of users..."
-- said to Donald Folland, Association of Mainframe Users
--*--
Magi and the Changelings...the latter just have to warn their SO's that the
offspring might be a little "odd" by normal society standards, and the
former...well, I won't go into any details, except that Life and Time is
really good for the best sex anyone ever had... : )
--
--*--
"Insert interesting quote here"
Ethan Skemp
> > I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> > a subjective matter.
>
> Ah, but whether vampires are, as a matter of fact, *dead* in any
> meaningful sense is itself an arguable point...
Not to creatures of the Living Umbra. You can find rocks with more life
to them than vampires.
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Brandon Quina
I always thought the problem with vampires wasn't so much that they
were *dead* as much as they were *mockerys of life*...
Brandon,
Destil
werewolves, or any of the other non-mortals in the WoD, are natural.
The answer is None of them.
Otherwise they wouldn't be known as the "super"-natural.
--
__________________________________________
visit the official Embraced Network Site
at http://www.embraced.net
__________________________________________
JGWalkerJr
Take some medical parasitology courses and you'll run across things that make
Vampiric reproduction seem rather mundane.
James
JGWalkerJr
>> > a subjective matter.
>>
>> Ah, but whether vampires are, as a matter of fact, *dead* in any
>> meaningful sense is itself an arguable point...
>
>Not to creatures of the Living Umbra. You can find rocks with more life
>to them than vampires.
>
>WWGS
You know, you never bothered to respond to my post about how the living umbra's
thoughts on matters are heavily influenced by what the dwellers in the "real
world" want them to be.
Just an observation.
James
Blake
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Really, I don't see why it's much of a problem. If you play Vampire, of
> *course* the Lupines are crazed berserkers who are judging your poor
> angsty self unfairly. If you play Werewolf, of *course* vampires are
> undead starvelings who were created by Weaver and Wyrm as a mockery of
> the truly alive. The only contradiction is if you're trying to play both
> at the same time -- and to my eyes, that's not unlike trying to play
> Call of Cthulhu and Teenagers from Outer Space at the same time. It can
> be done with some work, but it's unfair to claim that the two systems
> aren't set up to make it happen as easily as possible.
Aw, c'mon: Call of C'thulhu and Elric! or TFOS and Mekton - at least pick
examples that are from the same company. ;) Never mind, same company, same
setting, same core rules...
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317 '-|---
David Johnston
>
> Alistair J. R. Young wrote:
>
> > > a subjective matter.
> >
> > Ah, but whether vampires are, as a matter of fact, *dead* in any
> > meaningful sense is itself an arguable point...
>
> Not to creatures of the Living Umbra. You can find rocks with more life
> to them than vampires.
What, they aren't visible in the Umbra?
JSpektr
>
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > In other words, saying Garou reproduction is natrual becuase vampire
> > reproduction isn't just doesn't stand up as any sort of argument. OTOH is
> > exactly the sort of argument I can imagine Garou using ;)
>
> At least there are sperm and egg cells involved.
Yes, but eggs and sperm of what species?
And if a male Garou inseminates, say, a wolf while in Lupus, and
then changes to Homid, does his sperm change too? If so, would any
Garou that hopes to reproduce be required to stay in the appropriate
form long enough for their sperm or eggs to come into contact with
those of their partner's? As I recall, that can be as long as 7 days
after copulation.
> I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> a subjective matter.
It only becomes a problem with the dead people are up walking
around.
JSpektr - PS: book of the Weaver, very nice. Especially the bits on
Vampires being heavily Weaver-tainted, considering that part of
their curse is to be forever unchanging.
Stunt Borg
> Vampires with DA Roads of Chivalry, Heaven, Einheriar, Norse,
> Paradox and Humanity do not register as Wyrm-tainted if the rating
> is high enough (7+ if you follow official guidelines; IMO 6 should
> suffice ("look I'm an unclean, corrupt thing, a blight on earth,
> because I regularly shoplift...").
I've always swapped the 'stealing' level with the one above it.
Shoplifting and kleptomania just don't carry the same kind of
violation that intentionally inflicting unjustified harm does.
Besides, if the stealing is bad enough, it *is* inflicting harm, and
qualifies as more serious automatically.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
is obviously Humanity 6 or less because he swipes paperclips
from the office ... suuuuuuuure
Stunt Borg
> >> Sure. Its just not a very, well, natural way of reproducing
> >> now is it ;)
> >
> >Sure it is. You don't have to *kill your partner and drain her
> >blood*, do you?
>
> Well, some female spiders do precisely that to their mates.
> Then there are ichneumon wasps, which paralyse caterpillars
> and lay their eggs inside. Another sort of bug whose name
> I've forgotten doesn't mate at all, since all members of the
> species are female; when one is born the larvae are already
> alive inside her, and as they grow they eat their way out of
> their own mother, eventually killing her in the process.
And according to our War of Rage idiot-winners, the Garou, all of
that is 'obviously' of the Wyrm because it looks like it's of the
Wyrm. That was their justification for annihilating the werebats,
decimating the Mokole, and warring on the Ananasi, after all.
And since the Bastet weren't sharing, *obviously* they were in
league with the Wyrm. Ditto the Gurahl. Ditto any sufficiently
uppity young Cub.
That is the biggest logical flaw in *anything* the Garou claim
regarding 'killing something because it is of the Wyrm'. The
ridiculousness of Sense Wyrm aside, they still decimate and kill
thousands of things that *don't even register* on the damned Gift
just because their huckleberry bigotry insists that this Other
*must* obviously be Wyrm-tainted.
So, *obviously* digger wasps are Wyrm tainted. *Obviously* Ananasi
spider-kin mating is Wyrm-tainted. *Obviously* parthenogenetic
species are vile aberrations of the Weaver and/or Wyrm. *Obviously*
anything that deviates from the narrow confines of inbred Garou
bigotry (even or *especially* if it doesn't show to Sense Wyrm) is
tainted and evil and beneath negotiating with or punishing lightly;
*obviously*, every such deviation is in need of immediate KILLING.
Yep. A game packed with richness and complexity. Hoo yeah.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
finds the canonical Garou, who get *heaped* with all kinds of
praise, worse by far than even the worst caricatures of the
Technocracy - even the ridiculously-overdone Technocrats at
least *try* to capture and convert some of their enemies
before killing them
Wanderer
<All I can say is, if laws didn't exist till they were defined how DID
that apple clobber Isaac Newton on the head? ;) (and why wasn't Sir
Isaac
floating around somewhere?)>
<reply> Simple. By this time, a few laws had already been formulated:
1. Things fall down. And the heavier it is, the faster it falls.
2. Arrows fly through the air and fall to the ground.
2a. By corollary, what is true for arrows is also true for musket balls
and cannon balls,
Of course, for years most people believed that a cannonball flew in a
straight line until it stopped ... then fell straight to the ground. After
all, ballistics came later ... ;>
Yours with a smile,
The historical,
Wanderer**wand...@ticnet.com
Where am I going?I don't quite know.
What does it matter where people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I*don't know!
P.S.: Turn off the HTML, please ...
Blake
man...@geocities.com wrote:
> Golconda can olny be achieved by accepting the Beast. But to get their a need
> to keep my Humanity high and repress it? Go figure.
Hey, it's /supposed/ to be increadibly hard to reach Golconda... resolving the
above paradox might be one step in the right direction. ;)
Geoffrey Brent
<01be7567$4abaf400$986cf482@dator-03>...
> Hell, the only supernatural critters who reproduce fairly normally are
the
> Magi and the Changelings...the latter just have to warn their SO's that
the
> offspring might be a little "odd" by normal society standards, and the
> former...well, I won't go into any details, except that Life and Time is
> really good for the best sex anyone ever had... : )
Don't forget Mind.
A while back, in a Changeling game, my Sidhe got to plotting
and scheming with a local Satyr. If you invest Glamour in
clothing, then mundanes can see the Dreaming when they
put the clothes on... if you invest it in food, mundanes see the
Dreaming when they eat the food. Now, the Satyr in question
was some sort of Safe Sex campaigner, in the business of
handing out large numbers of condoms...
Geoffrey Brent
jbu...@my-dejanews.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > In other words, saying Garou reproduction is natrual becuase vampire
> > reproduction isn't just doesn't stand up as any sort of argument. OTOH is
> > exactly the sort of argument I can imagine Garou using ;)
>
> At least there are sperm and egg cells involved.
>
hatred
> > and bigotry in the WoD and I have no problem at when you say from a Garou
> > point of view Vampires are unnatural Wyrm Creatures. I'm there 100%. I just
> > can't see from any slightly objective standpoint how to conclude the Kindred
> > are more unnatural than the Garou.
In the 2nd ed VPG, there's a section on vampire psychology describing how
they're cut off from the natural flow of life, making them spiritual black
holes.
>
> I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> a subjective matter.
>
> Oy.
>
> Ethan Skemp
> WWGS
Brandon Quina
> > I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> > a subjective matter.
>
> around.
Even more so when they can hold intelligent conversation. You know,
something other than long inarticulate moans. Zombies created by a
Giovanni, or a voodoo witch-doctor, would be quite "dead," despite their
ability to walk around.. Vampires are some bizaree mockery of life, not
*truly* dead..
They do not, however, have...
1. Body warmth
2. Working digestive system
3. Sexual drive
4. Countless other things...
But, are they *truly* dead?? Debateable...
Brandon,
Geoffrey Brent
<36F86660...@tmgbbs.com>...
> They do not, however, have...
>
> 1. Body warmth
Nor do sharks, alligators, or spiders...
> 2. Working digestive system
Sure they do. They can digest blood very nicely, thank you...
> 3. Sexual drive
They have the urge to procreate - which is the basic
evolutionary purpose of the sex drive - just as strongly
as humans do.
> 4. Countless other things...
>
> But, are they *truly* dead?? Debateable...
If you can say "I'm not quite dead yet", you're not
quite dead yet. That's my opinion...
Geoffrey Brent
Ratspaw
>Take some medical parasitology courses and you'll run across things that make
>Vampiric reproduction seem rather mundane.
After learning about the reproductive cycle of the liver fluke I'll
buy that anything works.
Ratspaw
The fleeing rat's tail
Wheels in the corner shadow
Frenzied blood red eyes
man...@geocities.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
> > I'm all for the Garou thinking vampires are unnatural. I'm all for the
hatred
> > and bigotry in the WoD and I have no problem at when you say from a Garou
> > point of view Vampires are unnatural Wyrm Creatures. I'm there 100%. I just
> > can't see from any slightly objective standpoint how to conclude the Kindred
> > are more unnatural than the Garou.
>
> I never thought I'd see the day when being alive or dead was considered
> a subjective matter.
I always thought it was. I mean when exactly is a person dead? When they have
no heart beat? When they have no brain function? When the soul departs the
body (and when do you decide that is?). I've yet to see an objective
definition of "dead" in the WoD.
Vampires have no body temperature or heart beat, but there are a lot of
criteria for "dead" you can choose that don't apply to them. They are moving
around for a start.
Vampires were dead by most criteria at one point during the embrace, but hey,
people are often talked about having "died" on the operating table because
their heart stopped. Does that make them unnantural?
Mant
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
man...@geocities.com
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> JGWalkerJr wrote:
>
> > I think his point is that a species which can only reproduce by killing and
> > mutating a member of another species is no more freaky than a species that
can
> > only reproduce with members of two other species without producing a
sterile,
> > deformed offspring
>
> I see his point; I happen to heavily disagree. The way you guys are
> phrasing it, you're treating vampires like a species -- so doesn't the
> fact that they reproduce by killing a member of *another species* and
> turning it into one of their own seem even *more* over the top than a
> congenital case of inbreeding?
I guess not. Both seem not to follow the "natural" rules, I don't see a cut
off point where you go "well that moderately supernatural so thats OK" but
"thats really supernatural so thats not natural anymore".
I guess we just have to agree to disagree here.
The problem is when you have the supernatural to take into account I find it
hard to say this supernatural stuff is natural and this supernatural stuff
ain't. I mean its all SUPERnatural anyway, so I can't see what definition
of "natural" you can meaningfull aply to it anyway.
Coming from the Garou point of view I can see natural as being "made by
Gaia". So I suppose you can say Garou reproduction is natural becuase it is
made by Gaia, and Vampire reproduction is not becuase it isn't made by Gaia.
Of course IMHO that not better than saying Vampires are not natural just
becuase they are not, but I handle it as a rational for why in the Werewolf
uniniverse (as opposed to some greater WoD) Vampires are unnatural.
JGWalkerJr
>make
>>Vampiric reproduction seem rather mundane.
>
>After learning about the reproductive cycle of the liver fluke I'll
>buy that anything works.
>
>Ratspaw
My teacher was also my advisior. He told me stories about collegues of his who
kept "pet" parasites. And this one story about a guy who's intestinal nematode
decided to go wandering during a big presentation...
James