Clans, Bloodlines + Disciplines
Chris Steenhorst
I don't know if anyone out there has also compiled a list like
this, but if nobody has, wouldn't it be good to have such a list? :) This
will be posted along with the Twink FAQ every month or so. Even though
the Twink FAQ is about LARP and the Great List is for tabletop reference.
:)
WHITEWOLF VAMPIRE CLANS + BLOODLINES + DISCIPLINES V 3.7
Last updated: Jul 31 1997 1:06 am
By Christian Steenhorst (bj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
AHRIMANES_______________(Animalism, Presence, Spiritus) - Independent
ASSAMITE (Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Independent
ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
BAALI (Daimoinon, Obfuscate, Presence) - Independent
BLOOD BROTHERS__________(Celerity, Potence, Sanguinus) - Sabbat
BRUJAH (Celerity, Potence, Presence) - Camarilla
BRUJAH ANTITRIBU________(Celerity, Potence, Presence) - Sabbat
BUSHI (Celerity, Kai, Presence) - Independent (?)
CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism) - Independent
CAPPADOCIANS (Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis) - Only one left
CHILDREN OF OSIRIS______(Bardo) - Independent
DAUGHTERS OF CACOPHONY (Fortitude, Melpominee, Presence) - Independent
FOLLOWERS OF SET________(Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis) - Independent
GAKI (?,?,?) - (?)
GANGREL_________________(Animalism, Fortitude, Protean) - Camarilla
GANGREL ANTITRIBU - CITY (Celerity, Obfuscate, Protean) - Sabbat
GANGREL ANTITRIBU - COUNTRY_____(Animalism, Fortitude, Protean) - Sabbat
GARGOYLES (Fortitude, Potence, Visceratika) - Camarilla
GIOVANNI________________(Dominate, Necromancy, Potence) - Independent
KIASYD (Mytherceria, Necromancy, Obtenebration) - Independent
LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
LAMIA (Deimos, Mortis, Potence) - Extinct
LASOMBRA________________(Dominate, Obtenebration, Potence) - Sabbat
LASOMBRA ANTITRIBU (Dominate, Obtenebration, Potence) - Independent
LHIANNAN________________(Animalism, Ogham, Presence) - Extinct
MALKAVIAN (Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate) - Camarilla
MALKAVIAN ANTITRIBU_____(Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate) - Sabbat
NAGARAJA (Auspex, Necromancy, Nihilistics) - Black Hand
NOSFERATU_______________(Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence) - Camarilla
NOSFERATU ANTITRIBU (Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence) - Sabbat
OLD CLAN TZIMISCE_______(Animalism, Auspex, Dominate) - Black Hand
PANDERS (No specific disciplines) - Sabbat
RAVNOS__________________(Animalism, Chimerstry, Fortitude) - Independent
RAVNOS ANTITRIBU (Animalism, Chimerstry, Fortitude) - Sabbat
SALUBRI_________________(Auspex, Fortitude, Obeah) - Independent
SALUBRI (DARK AGES) (Auspex, Fortitude, Valeren) - Extinct
SAMEDI__________________(Necromancy, Obfuscate, Thanatosis) - Independent
SERPENTS OF THE LIGHT (Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis) - Sabbat
TOREADOR________________(Auspex, Celerity, Presence) - Camarilla
TOREADOR ANTITRIBU (Auspex, Celerity, Presence) - Sabbat
TREMERE_________________(Auspex, Dominate, Thaumaturgy) - Camarilla
TREMERE ANTITRIBU (Auspex, Dominate, Thaumaturgy) - Sabbat
TRUE BRUJAH_____________(Potence, Presence, Temporis) - Black Hand
TZIMISCE (Animalism, Auspex, Vicissitude) - Sabbat
VENTRUE_________________(Dominate, Fortitude, Presence) - Camarilla
VENTRUE ANTITRIBU (Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude) - Sabbat
DISCIPLINES (description)
ABOMBWE O - PREDATOR'S COMMUNION - Vampire may use The Beast's
mystical senses.
OO - TAMING THE BEAST - Vampire may borrow The Beast's strength.
OOO - WHISTLING UP THE BEAST - Vampire sings a song to stir up
the target's Beast Within.
OOOO - DEVIL-CHANNEL - Vampire may channel The Beast to various
body parts.
OOOOO - TAKING THE SKIN - Vampire turns into a slain target by
temporarily absorbing his Beast.
ANIMALISM O - SWEET WHISPERS - Communication with animals
OO - THE BECKONING - Summoning animals
OOO - SONG OF SERENITY - Calming of all mortal creatures
OOOO - SHARING OF SPIRITS - Posession of animals
OOOOO - DRAWING OUT THE BEAST - Transferring your beast to
another vessel
AUSPEX O - HIGHTENED SENSES - Double touch, taste, smell, hearing and
sight.
OO - AURA PERCEPTION - Percieve the auras of creatures
OOO - THE SPIRIT'S TOUCH - Gaining insight from handled objects
OOOO - TELEPATHY - Reading thoughts
OOOOO - PSYCHIC PROJECTION - Travel in spirit body
BARDO O - RESTORE HUMANITUS - Child can restore her own humanity.
OO - BANISHING SIGN OF THOTH - Warding against all supernatural
threats.
OOO - GIFT OF APIS - Child need not drink the blood of mortals.
OOOO - PILLAR OF OSIRIS - Enchant building to make using
Disciplines easier, but makes resisting
frenzy more difficult.
OOOOO - PARADOX - Child informs target of nature of the universe,
target becomes confused.
CELERITY - For every point posessed, one extra action per round with
expenditure of 1 blood point.
CHIMERSTRY O - IGNIS FATUUS - Simple illusion affecting 1 sense
OO - FATA MORGANA - Simple illusion affecting all senses
OOO - APPARITION - Allows you to move illusions
OOOO - PERMANENCY - Illusions stay without you being there
OOOOO - HORRID REALITY - Illusion becomes reality for 1 target
DAIMOINON O - SENSE THE SIN - Baali can sense a target's greatest flaw
OO - FEAR OF THE VOID BELOW - After SENSE THE SIN used, Baali
informs target of inevitable
damnation...target flees
OOO - FLAMES OF THE NETHERWORLD - Baali hurles fireballs
OOOO - PSYCHOMACHIA - Baali may make a target frenzy
OOOOO - CURSE - Baali may reduce one of her target's traits to zero
for a fixed amount of time
DARK THAUMATURGY
-CHAINS OF PLEASURE
O - ECSTASY - Create intense physical pleasure
OO - OVERSTIMULATION - Painful pleasure
OOO - THE WAVE OF PLEASURE - As ECSTASY but no longer have to
retain touch
OOOO - WRITHING DELIGHTS - Incapacitate others with pleasure
OOOOO - THE GLOW OF A THOUSAND EMBRACES - Devastating pleasure
-HANDS OF DESTRUCTION
O - DECAY - Age an inanimate object
OO - GNARL WOOD - Warp/bend any wood within view
OOO - ACIDIC TOUCH - Infernalist sweats acid
OOOO - ATROPHY - Decompose flesh
OOOOO - TURN TO DUST - Rapidly age a target
-FIRES OF INFERNO
- Create Hellfire; each dot posessed adds one die of damage
to anyone in contact with fire
-PATH OF PESTILENCE
O - SICKNESS - Create minor illness in mortals.
OO - VAMPIRE SICKNESS - Same as SICKNESS but for vampires
OOO - THE SWARMING - Summon + command swarm of insects
OOOO - DISEASED BREATH - Dangerous breath causes damage
OOOOO - CAUSE PLAGUE - As SICKNESS but sickness now transferable to
others.
-PATH OF PHOBOS
O - INDUCE FEAR - Target things he is being watched
OO - SPOOK - Target is overwhelmed with dread
OOO - TERRORIZE - Infernalist confronts target with his worst
worst fear
OOOO - FEAR IMMERSION - As TERRORIZE but target is surrounded by
his fear
OOOOO - LEECH OF FEAR - Allows Infernalist to feed on fear as if it
were blood
-PATH OF SECRET KNOWLEDGE
O - WHISPERS - Summon common knowledge from mortal target
OO - SECRETS IN THE DARK - Summon more knowledge from mortal
target
OOO - THE HIDDEN - Summon EVERYTHING about mortal target
OOOO - DARK PROPHECY - Infernalist can see dark futures
OOOOO - UNLOCK THE HEART OF MYSTERY - Infernalist gains info about
things unknown to anyone
-PATH OF TORTURE
O - HURT - Cause intense pain with skin contact
OO - HUNGER - Cause intense pain in a vampire
OOO - TORMENT - Cause crippling pain in target
OOOO - AGONY - As TORMENT but unconciousness is no escape
OOOOO - PANGS OF HELL - Cause pain so intense it kills
-REGO DOLOR (PATH OF PAIN) (Dark Ages)
O - STRIKE THE BROKEN LIMB - Reopen old wounds.
OO - PHANTOM PAIN - Inflict damage without inflicting damage.
OOO - CURSE THE SENSES - Make target blind, deaf, and dumb.
OOOO - FEED THE CORRUPTION - Infect target with maggots, etc.
OOOOO - ETERNAL TORMENT - Inflict damage that cannot be healed by
normal means.
-REGO MANES (PATH OF SPIRIT) (Dark Ages)
- Summon spirits: Each dot of REGO MANES allows greater
spirits/demons to be summoned.
-REGO VENALIS (PATH OF CORRUPTION) (Dark Ages)
O - NIGHT'S TERROR - Infernalist induces visions of terror
within target (again).
OO - POISON HEART - Infernalist tempts target to succumb to his
dark side.
OOO - FOOL THE HEART'S EYE - Infernalist can appear as the
target's loved one.
OOOO - NAME THE CRIME - Infernalist forces target to commit a sin.
OOOOO - UNLEASH THE DARK SOUL - Infernalist draws dark side OUT of
a target, turns it into a servant.
-VIDEO NEFAS (PATH OF EVIL REVELATIONS) (Dark Ages)
O - SEE THE UNSEEN - The Infernalist can gaze into the spirit
world.
OO - LEAN THE HEART'S PAIN - Infernalist learns what most
greives a target.
OOO - SEIZE THE MOMENT - Infernalist can snatch information from
a target's mind.
OOOO - CASTING THE BONES - Infernalist sees the future through
carved bones.
OOOOO - RECALL THE BLOODY DEED - Infernalist summons a spirit of
vengeance.
DEIMOS O - WHISPERS TO THE SOUL - Vampire whisper's one of Lilith's
(Dark Ages) names, target is plagued by
nightmares.
OO - KISS OF THE DARK MOTHER - Vampire gives deadly kisses.
OOO - ICHOR - Vampire is able to capture one of her moods in a
liquid form.
OOOO - CLUTCHING THE SHROUD - Vampire gains various powers of the
dead by drinking dead blood.
OOOOO - BLACK BREATH - Vampire breaths black cloud that serves to
depress targets.
DEMENTATION O - PASSION - Makes target feel emotions profoundly
OO - MIND TRICKS - Induce hallucinations in target's peripheral
vision
OOO - EYES OF CHAOS - Allows vampire to see one's inner natre +
deragements
OOOO - CONFUSION - Make target completely disoriented
OOOOO - TOTAL INSANITY - Inflict 5 simultaneous deragements
DOMINATE O - COMMAND THE WEARIED MIND - One-word command
OO - MESMERIZE - Complex commands
OOO - THE FORGETFUL MIND - Supress memories of others
OOOO - CONDITIONING - Making others more receptive to your
domination
OOOOO - POSSESSION - Taking control of another's body
FORTITUDE - For every point posessed, 1 die rolled to soak Agg. damage,
also added to Stamina to soak normal damage
KAI O - INNER FOCUS - Resist losing honor by spending 2 blood
instead of 1 will to avoid frenzy
OO - FOCUSED STRIKE - Focus a hit to break anything
OOO - HONORABLE ELIXIR - Turn blood into an honor-serum
OOOO - SHIELD FROM FIRE - Spend blood for fire immunity
OOOOO - DAIMYO'S LAW - Force another to perform a task
KINETICISM O - DAMPENING - Reduce the speed(damage) of incomming objects.
OO - REDIRECTION - Alter the direction of incomming objects
OOO - VENGEFUL STRIKE - Focus physical damage back onto the foe.
OOOO - DISCHARGE - Character may enhance her own kinetic
potential. (more damage - applies to
projectiles)
OOOOO - KINETIC SHIELD - Character creates an invisible sheild to
soak any damage.
MALEFICIA O - EVIL EYE - Target fails whatever he attempts to do next.
(Dark Ages) OO - MINOR CURSE - Target becomes not so good at things for a
few hours.
OOO - PSALM OF THE DAMNED - Strange chants plague victim's mind
for as long as infernalist can chant
OOOO - BARRENNESS - Renders target infertile. Mortal or vampire.
OOOOO - GREATER CURSE - Target cannot sleep, gains the appearance
of a leper, and suffers the effects of
MINOR CURSE for a period of one year.
MELPOMINEE O - THE MISSING VOICE - Operate voice anywhere in view
OO - TOURETTE'S VOICE - Project voice anywhere familiar
OOO - TOREADOR'S BANE - Entrace others with your voice
OOOO - ART'S TRAUMATIC ESSENCE - Cause insanity with voice
OOOOO - DEATH OF THE DRUM - Cause damage with voice
MORTIS O - MASQUE OF DEATH - Vampire makes himself or others appear as
a corpse
OO - BLIGHT - Vampire makes target older
OOO - AWAKEN - Vampire can awaken himself or others from Torpor
OOOO - DEATH'S WHISPER - Vampire becomes a corpse; invulnerable
OOOOO - BLACK DEATH - Cause disease to kill mortals in one day,
vampires enter Torpor immediately
MYTHERCERIA O - FEY SIGHT - Percieve all things faerie
OO - DARKLING TRICKERY - Cause various mystical pranks
OOO - GOBLINISM - Indentify, understand, and alter stone
OOOO - FAERIE WARDS - Create disorienting areas
OOOOO - RIDDLE PHANTASTIQUE - When asked riddle, target must spend
all of her time solving it
NECROMANCY O - INSIGHT - Looking into the eyes of the dead, one can
percieve last moments of life
OO - SUMMON SPIRIT - Summon a spirit of the dead
OOO - COMPEL - Master a summoned spirit
OOOO - HAUNTING - Keep spirit from returning to spirit world
OOOOO - SOUL STEALING - Steal the soul of a living being
NIHILISTICS O - EYES OF THE WRAITH - See living world from Underworld and
Vice Versa
OO - CONSUME THE DEAD - Feed from Wraiths
OOO - AURA OF DECAY - All objects around vampire decay
OOOO - THE DARK TOUCH - Inflict damage on living/undead/dead
OOOOO - NIGHTCRY - Summon beings from the Shadowland
OBEAH O - PANACEA - Heal claw/fang wounds by licking them
OO - ANESTHETIC TOUCH - Cause target to feel no pain
OOO - NEUTRAL GUARD - No one can come within 10 ft of you
OOOO - TREAT THE SICK MIND - Sense deragements and cure them
OOOOO - UNBURDENING OF THE BESTIAL SOUL - Allows vampire to remove
a soul and store it
within himself
OBFUSCATE O - CLOAK OF SHADOWS - invisibility behind objects or in
shadows
OO - UNSEEN PRESENCE - You are completely ignored, thus,
invisible
OOO - MASK OF THE THOUSAND FACES - Changing your appearance
OOOO - VANISH FROM MIND'S EYE - Disappear from plain view
OOOOO - CLOAK THE GATHERING - Concealing others
OBTENEBRATION O - SHADOW PLAY - Manipulate shadows + dim lights
OO - SHROUD OF NIGHT - Create an area of inky blacknes
OOO - ARMS OF THE ABYSS - Summon shadows to grapple foes
OOOO - NIGHTSHADES - Create shadows in any form
OOOOO - SHADOW BODY - Turn into a shadow
OGHAM O - CONSECRATE THE GROVE - Vampire calls up the spirits of a
small area to protect her.
OO - CRIMSON WOAD - Vampire summons spirits of blood and battle.
OOO - INSCRIBE THE CURSE - Vampire gains power of those she knows
the names of.
OOOO - MOON AND SUN - Vampire gains the powers of the phases of
the moon.
OOOOO - DRAGON LINES - Vampire draws energy from Ley Lines.
POTENCE - For every point posessed, 1 automatic success for ALL
strength-related rolls (includes damage)
PRESENCE O - AWE - All those around you are attracted to you
OO - DREAD GAZE - Frighten others away
OOO - ENTRANCEMENT - Sway others to your side
OOOO - SUMMON - Call others to you from afar
OOOOO - MAJESTY - All those around you respect and fear you
PROTEAN O - GLEAM OF RED EYES - Hightened vision (eyes glow red)
OO - WOLF CLAWS - 1 inch claws from fingertips - agg.dam.
OOO - EARTH MELD - Sink into bare earth
OOOO - SHADOW OF THE BEAST - Transform to a wolf or a bat
OOOOO - FORM OF MIST - Transform into a cloud of mist
QUIETUS O - SILENCE OF DEATH - Create a zone of complete silence
OO - WEAKNESS - With a touch, reduce foe's stamina by 1
OOO - DISEASE - As WEAKNESS but reduce all physical by 1
OOOO - BLOOD AGONY - Coat a blade with blood to do agg
OOOOO - TASTE OF DEATH - Spit blood for agg damage
SANGUINUS O - BROTHER'S BLOOD - 1 Brother spends blood, any other brother
may heal 1 wound
OO - BORROW ORGANS - Brother may donate external organs to one
other brother
OOO - COORDINATE ATTACKS - Mental link between all blood brothers
OOOO - CONCENTRATE GENERATION - Borrow Generation from brothers
OOOOO - COGULATE ENTITY - All Brothers become one large creature
SERPENTIS O - THE EYES OF THE SERPENT - Hold mortals in your gaze
OO - THE TONGUE OF THE SERPENT - Foot long tongue does agg,
drains blood
OOO - MUMMIFY - Become invulnerable to any damage except for fire
+ sunlight (vampire cannot move)
OOOO - FORM OF THE SERPENT - Turn into a large, black cobra
OOOOO - THE HEART OF DARKNESS - Remove any vampire's heart
SPIRITUS O - SPEAK WITH SPIRITS - Communicate with nearby spirits
OO - SUMMON SPIRIT BEASTS - Summon + command spirits of dead
animals
OOO - ASPECT OF THE BEAST - Gain powers of various animals
OOOO - ENGLING FURY - Replenish willpower by consuming spirits
OOOOO - THE WILDEBEEST - Change into the animal
STRIGA O - STRIX - Infernalist hears rumors from the winds.
(Dark Ages) OO - SCOBAX - Infernalist can direct swarms of insects/vermin
OOO - MASCA - Infernalist can become an animal by drinking its
blood.
OOOO - HEXE - Infernalist spits blood at target to disfigure her.
OOOOO - FRACTURA - Infernalist uses his blood as magical armor.
THANATOSIS O - HAG'S WRINKLES - Expand/contract your skin
OO - PUTREFACTION -Induce decomposition
OOO - ASHES TO ASHES - Transform into ash - invulnerable
OOOO - WITHERING - Mummify opponent's limbs
OOOOO - INFECTION - Cause an open wound from an Aggravated wound,
then feed victim blood magically (Blood
binding)
THUAMATURGY
-BIOTHAUMATURGIC EXPERIMENTATION
O - THAUMATURGICAL FORENSICS - Glean info from remains
OO - ANIMAL EXPERIMENTATION - Alter animals
OOO - THAUMATURGICAL SURGERY - Thaumaturgist can heal all kinds
of wounds
OOOO - HUMAN EXPERIMENTATION - Alter humans
OOOOO - SUPERNATURAL EXPERIMENTATION - Alter anything
-CORRUPTION
O - CONTRADICT - Corrupter can make target do opposite of what
he was about to do
OO - DISFIGUREMENT - Alter only someone's face
OOO - CHANGE MIND - Corrupter can make target do opposite of what
he does for a long time
OOOO - CRIPPLE - Corrupter turns victim to paraplegic
OOOOO - CORRUPT SOUL - As CHANGE MIND but changes target's inner
essence
-ELEMENTAL MASTERY
O - ELEMENTAL STRENGTH - Raise all physical by 1 with willpower
OO - WOODEN TONGUES - Speaking with objects
OOO - ANIMATE THE UNMOVING - Imbibing objects with movement
OOOO - ELEMENTAL FORM - Change into an object of equal size/weight
OOOOO - SUMMON ELEMENTAL - Summon an Earth/water/fire/air elemental
(or other elements?)
-GIFT OF MORPHEUS
O - CAUSE SLEEP - Any mortal within view can be put to sleep
OO - MASS SLUMBER - Any mortals within view can be put to sleep
simultaneously
OOO - ENCHANTED SLUMBER - Target is put to sleep until specific
task is performed
OOOO - DREAMSCAPE - Vampire may enter a target's dream
OOOOO - MASTER OF DREAMS - Vampre controls target's dreams
-HIDEA IMAN
O - SAUT ALLAH - Give followers 1 point of willpower (temp)
OO - NUZRA ALLAH - Prevent someone from attacking you with a
glance
OOO - RUH ALLAH - Bring someone out of frenzy
OOOO - GHADUB ALLAH - Same as NUZRA ALLAH minus eye-contact
OOOOO - KUBDA ALLAH - Make an opponent submit or be damaged
-LURE OF FLAMES
- For each dot of LURE OF FLAMES posessed, vampire
may make larger and larger flames.
-NEPTUNE'S MIGHT
O - EYES OF THE SEA - Allows vampire to view events that have
happend around standing water
OO - JAIL OF WATER - Water is manipulated to surround a target,
immobilizing her.
OOO - DEHYDRATE - Vampire can draw water from victim's blood
OOOO - FLOWING WALL - Vampire can enchant standing water so no
supernatural creature may cross it
OOOOO - BLOOD TO WATER - Vampire changes blood into water
-PATH OF BLOOD
O - A TASTE FOR BLOOD - Gain information from blood
OO - BLOOD RAGE - Vampire can force kindred to spend blood
OOO - BLOOD OF POTENCY - Vampire may reduce her Gen
OOOO - THEFT OF VITAE - Transfer blood from target to yourself
OOOOO - CAULDRON OF BLOOD - Boil the blood of your target
-PATH OF CONJURING
O - SUMMONING THE SIMPLE FORM - Vampire may conjur simple
object (no moving parts)
OO - PERMANENCY - Simple objects conjured remain
OOO - MAGIC OF THE SMITH - Create complex devices
OOOO - REVERSE CONUJURATION - Dissolve another's conjuration
OOOOO - POWER OVER LIFE - Conjure living beings
-PATH OF WARDING (Dark Ages)
O - BAR THE COMMON PASSAGE - Imbue a door with extra strength.
OO - GLYPH OF SCRYING - Create magical objects through which
vampire can spy.
OOO - RUNES OF POWER - Ward an object against being touched by
anyone except the caster.
OOOO - GLYPH OF ENLIGHTENMENT - Use GLYPH OF SCRYING to extend
one's powers through the glyph.
OOOOO - SECURE THE SACRED DOMAIN - Vampire makes his haven
invulnerable.
-PREY ON THE SOUL'S FEAR (Dark Ages)
O - STARTLE THE SUPERSTITIOUS MIND - Vampire freezes her target
with fear.
OO - ROUTE THE CHARGING HORDES - Everyone near the vampire moves
away on sight.
OOO - WRATH OF GOD - Vampire makes her target believe himself
damned (target may not move).
OOOO - THE INNER DEMON - Target is consumed by his deepest dread.
OOOOO - DEMONIC HORDE - Vampire induces hallucinations of evil
things in up to 20 targets.
-SPIRIT THAUMATURGY
O - EVIL EYE - Vampire curses target, spirits follow her
OO - SPIRIT EYES - Vampire can see spirits
OOO - SPIRIT SLAVE - Vampire can demand tasks of spirits
OOOO - FETISHES - Vampire can force spirits to inhabit objects
OOOOO - JOURNEY - Vampire journeys the physical realm in spirit
form
-THAUMATURGICAL ALCHEMY (Dark Ages)
O - FORTIFY THE SOLID FORM - Character makes matter stronger.
OO - CRYSTALIZE LIQUID - Character turns liquids into solids.
OOO - LIQUEFY THE SOLID FORM - Turn solids into liquids.
OOOO - ETHEREAL STONE - Character makes gasses suddenly solid.
OOOOO - VAPOROUS TRANSFORMATION - And solids become gaseous.
-WAY OF THE LIVENBOLT (Dark Ages)
O - SPARK - Vampire creates a brief electrical charge
OO - ILLUMINATE - Vampire surrounds herself with aura of
electricity
OOO - BODY OF LIGHT - The aura becomes stronger.
OOOO - JUPITER'S AEGIS - The aura becomes even stronger.
OOOOO - LIGHTNING DANCE - The aura reaches its most powrful.
-WEATHER CONTROL
- For each point of WEATHER CONTROL posessed, vampire can
create greater and greater weather effects
TEMPORIS O - TIME SENSE - Vampire can accurately sense time
OO - RAMBLE ON - Vampire can cause target to repeat herself
constantly
OOO - ZOMBIE'S CURSE - Victim moves at half speed
OOOO - COWALKER - Vampire may stop time
OOOOO - FROZEN OBJECT - Vampire may freeze an object in time
VALEREN O - SENSE LIFE/DEATH - Salubri may "see" a target's life force.
(Dark Ages) OO - GIFT OF SLEEP - Salubri may put target to sleep.
OOO - HEALING TOUCH - Salubri may heal any wound with a touch.
OOO - BURNING TOUCH - Salubri may inflict pain with a touch.
OOOO - SHEPHERD'S WATCH - Salubri erects a magical sheild that
none may enter.
OOOO - ENDING THE WATCH - Salubri enacts mystical euthenasia.
OOOOO - THE AILING SPIRIT - Salubri may remove derangements.
OOOOO - VENGEANCE OF SAMIEL - Warrior Salubri invoke the power and
gain perfect aim when striking a foe.
VICISSITUDE O - CHANGELING - Vampire may alter little things about his
appearance
OO - FLESHCRAFT - Vampire may drastically alter flesh
OOO - BONECRAFT - Vampire may drastically alter bone
OOOO - HORRID FORM - Vampire changes into a 7-8 foot tall monster
OOOOO - INNER ESSENCE - Vampire may change parts of her anatomy
into blood and back again
VISCERATIKA O - WHISPERS OF THE CHAMBER - Gargoyle is able to detect others
in an area
OO - SKIN OF THE CHAMELEON - Gargoyle can appear as it's
surroundings
OOO - VOICES OF THE CASTLE - As WHISPERS OF THE CHAMBER But
working for an entire building
OOOO - BOND WITH TERRA - Gargoyle can seep just below the surface
of stone/brick/asphalt.
OOOOO - STONESTRENGTH - +1 stamina for soak, -1 from all wound
penalties, fire 1/2 damage
References: A World of Darkness 2nd Ed.
Dark Ages Companion
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
Outcasts
Player's Guide to the Sabbat
Storyteller's Guide to the Sabbat
Storyteller's Handbook
The Hunters Hunted
Vampire: Dark Ages
Vampire Player's Guide 2nd Ed.
Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd Ed.
Vancouver: Dark Alliance
Compiled by Christian Steenhorst
All Clans, Bloodlines, Disciplines, and all references to Vampire: The
Masquerade are registered trademarks of WhiteWolf Gaming Company.
--
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The Reverend Christian Steenhorst - bj...@freenet.carleton.ca
LordSludge
Dude you are very cool. I k=now have a list of all the Disciplines.
Thank you very much.
SlpStck
>ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
>LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
AdamRLee
>
>>LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
>WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
>
>
WRONG! Check Page 127 of 'A world Of Darkness 2nd ed.' " 10 Laibon are known
to exist"
Adam
Eborium
> >ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>
> WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
That isn't polite, especially, since that for all intensive purposes the
Assamite antitribu are Sabbat and not part of the Black Hand.
> >LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
> WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
Sorry, you're quite explicitly wrong here; the Laibon are, according the
the DA companion, still alive in the present day.
J
=
man...@geocities.com
In article <19980304053...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
You are correct, the fact that they are all part of the Black Hand is indeed
wrong. Most Assamite Antitribu belong to the Black Hand, but not all of them,
any anyway the Black Hand (not the True one) is part of the Sabbat, so a
member of the Black Hand is a member of the Sabbat. That is why the Assimite
Antitribu is in the Sabbat Players Guide. If you use DSotBH then a few
Assamite Antitrbu belong to the True Hand, but hardly all of them.
> >CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>
> WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
Well done, the pack that caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want,
except thaumaturgy is indeed wrong. The example Caitiff in Outcasts has a dot
of Thaumaturgy. If a person practised magic of some form in life (Hedge or
otherwise) and becomes a Caitiff, they could quite easily have a point if
Thaumaturgy (check out WoD: Sorcerer). On the other hand, some clan specific
disiplines are only avaliable to Caitiff at the ST discrection.
> >LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
> WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
Ah you slipped up here. The fact that they are extinct may or may not be
true. There are a few hints in the 2nd edition World of Darkness that there
are some strange vampires in Africa. It may or may not be the Laibon.
If you are going to tell someone that they are wrong, could you please try
and get it right, don't "shout" and cut down on the exclamation marks? There
is so much White Wolf source material that most people make the odd mistake
about it. Its better if you can try to point it out in a slightly less
abrasive way. (unlike myself, who just used sarcasm)
Mant
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
man...@geocities.com
In article <6di1ch$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Chris Steenhorst) wrote:
> WHITEWOLF VAMPIRE CLANS + BLOODLINES + DISCIPLINES V 3.7
> Last updated: Jul 31 1997 1:06 am
> By Christian Steenhorst (bj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
>
> AHRIMANES_______________(Animalism, Presence, Spiritus) - Independent
The Ahrimanes are Sabbat, although fairly independent of the sect.
> BUSHI (Celerity, Kai, Presence) - Independent (?)
> GAKI (?,?,?) - (?)
As of KotE these guys are now Kuei-jin. The Bushi are House Bishamon.
A very useful resources though.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Chris Steenhorst wrote:
> I don't know if anyone out there has also compiled a list...
I'm impressed. Not sure I'd make the antitribu different bloodlines,
however, unless they have wholly distinct Disciplines (such as, say,
Gangrel antitribu or Ventrue antitribu).
Nits to Pick (since there are always _some_):
* There are country Gangrel antitribu as well as city Gangrel antitribu
(no explicit rules are given for the country antitribu, though they
are mentioned several times in canon such as _PGttS_ and _STGttS_...
I would assume they use standard Camarilla Gangrel Disciplines/etc.)
* As 'The Baron' so kindly pointed out for me a couple of years back,
two distinct bloodlines (which may or may not be simple offshoots of
their parent Clans) exist in _Clanbook Ventrue_ and _The Book of Nod_
(the Jocastians (Diablerie-freaks) and Mnemosynes (historians),
respectively). Their Disciplines aren't listed, but they're there.
This is an excellent job, Chris, and I look forward to seeing more.
-- S. Skoog
Vis Sierra
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> * As 'The Baron' so kindly pointed out for me a couple of years back,
> two distinct bloodlines (which may or may not be simple offshoots of
> their parent Clans) exist in _Clanbook Ventrue_ and _The Book of Nod_
> (the Jocastians (Diablerie-freaks) and Mnemosynes (historians),
> respectively). Their Disciplines aren't listed, but they're there.
The Disciplines for the Mnemosyne (if they exist as an actual
bloodline) are not given by name as Auspex, Dominate, and
Obfuscate in the BoN; however, the descriptions leave them little
room to be anything but the Camarilla Malkavian's arrangement.
If you'll note the afterword to the Book of Nod, you'll find the
message is from the Anarch Ayisha Jocastatian. If you believe
that Aristotle de Laurent was at least mildly paranoid about his
research (and the motives of others interested in it) you may
come to the conclusion that de Laurent attributed the efforts to
acquire his translations by Ayisha Jocastatian to the efforts of
the Diablerie-mad and cultish Jocastatians.
In other words, if you believe there's a Jocastatian bloodline,
you probably believe the Beckett (well known to be Gangrel) is
*literally* de Laurent's childe and that someone other than de
Laurent carved his name into his arm as he slept. ;)
> This is an excellent job, Chris, and I look forward to seeing more.
I haven't had the chance to give the original more than a glance,
but it looks good. So, provisionally, keep up the good work.
> -- S. Skoog
-- V. Sierra
Rev. Keith Johnson
Chris Steenhorst wrote:
> WHITEWOLF VAMPIRE CLANS + BLOODLINES + DISCIPLINES V 3.7
> Last updated: Jul 31 1997 1:06 am
> By Christian Steenhorst (bj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
>
First of all, thanks for writing and posting the list. I only have two things I
would like to bring up though:
- Movement of the Mind is not located on the list (presumably it should be under
Thaumaturgy)
- Which supplement that you listed in the resources is the "sole survivor" of the
Capodacians to be found? Are you refering to the character in a White Wolf novel
or in one of the products for the game?
---
Rev. Keith Johnson
kejo...@ucdavis.edu
Chris Steenhorst
SlpStck (slp...@aol.com) writes:
>>ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>
> WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
Not necessarily. YOu think that every Assamite Antitribu is
embraced into the Tal Mahe Ra? No. They are INDUCTED into the Tal Mahe
Ra when THEY feel the young one is ready.
>>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>
> WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
I know that and you know that, but Kineticism was invented by
Caitiff for Caitiff, it's the only Discipline unique to them, so that's
what I put down.
>>LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
> WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
Check your Dark Ages Companion. The Laibon do still exist in
Africa.
Please ask for clarification before being so beligerent.
Christian
Patrick Baldwin
SlpStck wrote:
>>ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>
Most of them are, not all of them. And if you must be really pedantic,
which Black Hand?
>
>>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>
>WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
And Protean. But I'm fairly sure he is listing Disciplines specific
to Clans/Bloodlines. Kineticism is one that was specifically listed
with Caitiff.
>
>>LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
>WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
WOD 2nd edition suggests that they most certainly aren't extinct and the
Dark Ages book where they appear also mentions the possibility of their
continued existence in Africa.
On a different note, was there any particular reason why you were such
a git in the manner you chose to post this? After the considerable effort
that this person seemingly went through to compile this list, which is
on the whole quite accurate and rather usefull, you decided to respond to
it like that?
Do you talk that way to people you meet face to face?
-Patrick Baldwin, who's reaction at having some stranger
shouting things like that in his face would be less than pleasant.
Chris Steenhorst
(sv...@ll.mit.edu) writes:
> Chris Steenhorst wrote:
>
>> I don't know if anyone out there has also compiled a list...
>
> I'm impressed. Not sure I'd make the antitribu different bloodlines,
> however, unless they have wholly distinct Disciplines (such as, say,
> Gangrel antitribu or Ventrue antitribu).
>
Well, mark it up to avoiding confusion. Your average newbie wants
to learn stuff, and they want to know specifically about the Toreador
Antitribu. Now, if I didn't list Toreador Antitribu, this newbie may then
become confused and then become self-righteous and yell in this newsgroup
"Hey, stupid! YOu forgot the Toreador Antitribu!" :)
Fare Thee Well
Christian
Chris Steenhorst
(man...@geocities.com) writes:
> In article <6di1ch$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Chris Steenhorst) wrote:
>> WHITEWOLF VAMPIRE CLANS + BLOODLINES + DISCIPLINES V 3.7
>> Last updated: Jul 31 1997 1:06 am
>> By Christian Steenhorst (bj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
>>
>> AHRIMANES_______________(Animalism, Presence, Spiritus) - Independent
>
> The Ahrimanes are Sabbat, although fairly independent of the sect.
So they are! :) Thanks for pointing out this mistake, I shall
correct it forthwith.
>> BUSHI (Celerity, Kai, Presence) - Independent (?)
>> GAKI (?,?,?) - (?)
>
> As of KotE these guys are now Kuei-jin. The Bushi are House Bishamon.
>
See...I thought I had made it clear that I haven't even SEEN KotE,
much less had it in my hands long enough to add them to this list. Maybe
I forgot to make it clear? Oh well. I think I shall be getting this book
for my Birthday next month. I shall add them all at that time. Do not, I
repeat DO NOT send me any information about them until that time. :) Thank
you.
Fare Thee Well
Christian
LordSludge
>>ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>
>WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
>
>
>WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
>
>
>WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
You are wrong. The Cattiff made Kineticism and it is an original.
Laibon can be apart of the Present Day games. the are the only ones allowed.
Assamite Antitribu are the Sabbat and Black Hand so either name is correct.
Chay0s
>>>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
Whoa, where is this Discipline from? I haven't played Vampire in a few years so
I am no doubt behind on alot of stuff. I once made a discipline called Kineses
that invovled Crawling on walls, teleporting, flying, etc. What does Kineticism
involve?
Chay0s
Vmprmdnt
Okay, the only way this list could be better is to have a bit of systems added
to it. =) Maybe next time, right? It would be helpful for those without
access to the proper books. =) Not all of us are rich.
Love @}-----}------}-----
La Bella Donna
Goth Code '98:
bO2ahG6faSavdcbaHbaa7630ZPRTEntasqdadycZ3lniLd3E3
GGc8oqbiiCDccdTLca2hdhxmg6AlisNjubRUMHabiacqlusUT
Chris Steenhorst
"Rev. Keith Johnson" (kejo...@ucdavis.edu) writes:
> Chris Steenhorst wrote:
>
>> WHITEWOLF VAMPIRE CLANS + BLOODLINES + DISCIPLINES V 3.7
>> Last updated: Jul 31 1997 1:06 am
>> By Christian Steenhorst (bj...@freenet.carleton.ca)
>
> First of all, thanks for writing and posting the list. I only have two things I
> would like to bring up though:
> - Movement of the Mind is not located on the list (presumably it should be under
> Thaumaturgy)
DEAR GOD YOU'RE RIGHT! This injustice must be cured right away!
Thank you for pointing this out!
> - Which supplement that you listed in the resources is the "sole survivor" of the
> Capodacians to be found? Are you refering to the character in a White Wolf novel
> or in one of the products for the game?
A World of Darkness 2nd Ed. In Egypt by night, the last surviving
Capadocian - Lazarus.
Fare Thee Well
Christian
Chris Steenhorst
Kineticism is a Discipline put forth in the Outcasts book. The
book tells the tale of Caitiff, Ronin, and...whatever it is for Mages.
The Discipline involves the manipulation of potential energy. Redirecting
moving objects, channelling impact energy - that sort of thing.
Sébastien Lévesque
> > - Which supplement that you listed in the resources is the "sole survivor" of the
> > Capodacians to be found? Are you refering to the character in a White Wolf novel
> > or in one of the products for the game?
>
> A World of Darkness 2nd Ed. In Egypt by night, the last surviving
> Capadocian - Lazarus.
>
> Fare Thee Well
> Christian
Hmm, Lazarus is said to be A Cappadocian, but it's not said he is the last one. And I
believe it could be possible that some Infitiores are still walking on Earth. Maybe 2
or 3, maybe far more than we can imagine.
Let's start another thread... If someone find a way to open the cave where numerous
Cappadocian were trapped by Cappadocius, it could be logical to think that some of them
would still be there, torporous. I say some of them because it's sure that those
vampires jumped on each other throat and they "self-killed" them. But there could be
some of them still "alive".
What would those vampires do in the WoD of the present days???
Sébas.
Robin McCaig
on 05 Mar 98, Sébastien Lévesque wrote...
>
>Hmm, Lazarus is said to be A Cappadocian, but it's not said he is the last one.
And I
>believe it could be possible that some Infitiores are still walking on Earth.
Maybe 2
>or 3, maybe far more than we can imagine.
>
>Let's start another thread... If someone find a way to open the cave where
numerous
>Cappadocian were trapped by Cappadocius, it could be logical to think that some
of them
>would still be there, torporous. I say some of them because it's sure that
those
>vampires jumped on each other throat and they "self-killed" them. But there
could be
>some of them still "alive".
>
>What would those vampires do in the WoD of the present days???
>
set in Edinburgh & St.Andrews
the local Kindred Monitor had been a Cappadocian before achieving Golconda &
joining the Inconnu. As this
happened several centuries before the destruction of Cappadocius the Giovanni
weren't aware of her existance
so she wasn't hunted down but over the years she still felt enough clan loyalty
to make things very difficult
for any Giovanni who attempted to move into the area...
As for your suddenly released Cappadocians, I imagine they'd want to keep a
*very* low profile!
Robin
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com
On 4 Mar 1998 05:36:26 GMT, slp...@aol.com (SlpStck) wrote:
Hey SlpStck, develop a little couth. This guy put a lot of time and
effort into this and it is by and large extremely useful. If you dont
agree with it or portions of it dont fit into your campaign then
change it to suit or don't use it at all.
Don't flame the guy and especially not over such trivial and petty
complaints. Who cares if the Assamite Anti's are Black White Red or
Green hand? They are most commonly associated with the Sabbat
regardless of thier actuall internal alliances. Who cares if the
Caitiff don't start off with Kineticism? It was invented by a Caitiff
and is primarily used by Caitiff. Who cares if one blood line or
another is thought to be extinct? It's up to the individual ST to
make that decision. Besides, have you read and memorized every single
supplement? Do you have an eidetic memory? If not think twice before
blasting off like that because there just may be something you don't
know. Instead try responding in a polite fashion, either with another
post or by private e-mail asking for clarification.
Something like "Excuse me, but I thought the Assamite Antitribu were
actually part of the Black Hand" , while still specious and irrelevant
to the nature of the post, would garner much better responses than
simply proclaiming somebody WRONG!!!. Try to show a little more
maturity next time.
Before you post something think this: Would I say this to a person if
he were sitting across a table from me or if we were on the phone.
Chris Steenhorst
Vmprmdnt (vmpr...@aol.com) writes:
> Okay, the only way this list could be better is to have a bit of
> systems added
> to it. =) Maybe next time, right? It would be helpful for those without
> access to the proper books. =) Not all of us are rich.
Well, unfortunately, that may not be possible. Aside from making
the list abysmally long, it would end up being an exact copy of all the
information sources I got them from.
PLUS, I'm not rich either. :) I don't have a lot of the books
listed in the credits. These are the ones I have:
A world of Darkness 2nd Ed.
Dark Ages Companion
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
Player's Guide to the Sabbat
Storyteller's Guide to the Sabbat
Storyteller's Handbook
Vampire Player's Guide 2nd Ed.
Vampire: The Masquerade 2nd Ed.
These are the ones I DON'T have:
Outcasts - and I never actually saw it either. Someone emailed me
the information on Kineticism.
The Hunters Hunted - Borrowed it from a friend. Out of Print.
Vampire: Dark Ages - Copied the information down at a friend's
house.
Vancouver: Dark Alliance - Borrowed it from another friend. It's
also out of print.
This information may be of interested to...nobody, but you can see
how getting the systems for all of these Disciplines would be a monumental
task. This list was supposed to be a quick reference to the basics.
Getting the specifics is an appealing concept, but...dear god what a job
that would be.
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <6dkae7$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Chris Steenhorst) writes:
>SlpStck (slp...@aol.com) writes:
>>>ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>>
>> WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
> Not necessarily. YOu think that every Assamite Antitribu is
>embraced into the Tal Mahe Ra? No. They are INDUCTED into the Tal Mahe
>Ra when THEY feel the young one is ready.
Indeed - there are more Assamite Antitribu than there are Cainites in the
Black Hand.
>>>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>>
>> WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
> I know that and you know that, but Kineticism was invented by
>Caitiff for Caitiff, it's the only Discipline unique to them, so that's
>what I put down.
It's not, really. It's an example of what Caitiff can do. It doesn't exist
in my games for the simple reason that it's just too bizarre.
I do ignore that silly rule in LARP that says Caitiff can't start with
Thaumaturgy, tho. They can get anything they want. :-)
>>>LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>>
>> WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
> Check your Dark Ages Companion. The Laibon do still exist in
>Africa.
Yes, they are. Rare, but still extant.
> Please ask for clarification before being so beligerent.
Belligerence is the foundation upon which the modern usenet stands.
Unfortunately.
Deirdre M. Brooks
> Kineticism is a Discipline put forth in the Outcasts book. The
>book tells the tale of Caitiff, Ronin, and...whatever it is for Mages.
>The Discipline involves the manipulation of potential energy. Redirecting
>moving objects, channelling impact energy - that sort of thing.
It's an example, really...meant to be a guideline on how to create new
Disciplines, or what kind a Caitiff might create.
Not to say it can't be used, but I wouldn't include it in a list of
serious published Disciplines...
Btw, there's also the Cyberpunk bloodline, with the Technica discipline.
Brian McGee
On Thu, 5 Mar 98 18:32:47 GMT, Robin McCaig
<rjmc...@davemccaig.clara.net> wrote:
>As for your suddenly released Cappadocians, I imagine they'd want to keep a
>*very* low profile!
>
Each of them is probably more nuts than a Malkavian who just downed a
quart of Pooka blood. What they would want to do and what they
actually would do would be two totally different things.
Brian McGee
Vmprmdnt
> A World of Darkness 2nd Ed. In Egypt by night, the last surviving
>Capadocian - Lazarus.
Yeah. I wish games counted. A group up here figured out how to get into the
tomb (via some tricky temporis and slipping sideways and a 100% child of Gaia)
and rescued on of the cappadocians. They had me bring in the first character I
ever played (A Cappadocian named Bella Donna) to be that particular rescued
vampire, and it would be nice to have her 'officially' alive in the modern
day. =)
Outta curiosity, would Lazarus Embrace any childer?
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com
On 5 Mar 1998 12:49:10 -0800, xe...@user1.teleport.com (Deirdre M.
Brooks) wrote:
>>>>CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>>>
>> I know that and you know that, but Kineticism was invented by
>>Caitiff for Caitiff, it's the only Discipline unique to them, so that's
>>what I put down.
>
>It's not, really. It's an example of what Caitiff can do. It doesn't exist
>in my games for the simple reason that it's just too bizarre.
Its not bizare at all. In fact it is one of the most solid Discipline
Concepts I've seen. Most Disciplines a really just a collection of
loosely related abilities. Kineticism on the other hand has a strong
central idea and builds on it. Each level is a logical progression,
and the powers are fairly balanced. Knieticism mimics two of the
three physical disciplines (Fortitude and Potence) and has a few
unique abilities, such as redirection and the ability to increase the
strength of projectiles built in. It is very similar to low level
Forces effects, and all around one of the most flexible Disciplines
available. You should give it a second look.
>I do ignore that silly rule in LARP that says Caitiff can't start with
>Thaumaturgy, tho. They can get anything they want. :-)
>
Its not silly at all. Where did they learn it from? I know that this
isn't the way WW developers do business, but all of the Clan-specific
disciplines like Necromancy, Quietus, Viscretika,Spiritus, Sanguinius,
Kai, Mortis, Melpominee, Serpentis, Mytherceria, Chimerstry, Obeah,
Thanatosis, Viscisitude, and Thaumaturgy were all introduced as being
developed and used solely by a particular blood line, in many cases
being what sets the bloodline apart. Next thing you know developers
go dot crazy and just start going down the list of disciplines and
assigning ranks in them when making NPC's. Players and ST's do it
too. I've seen a lot of characters running around with the rarer
Disciplines. When asked "Who taught you that discipline?" the answer
I usually get is "oh, I started out with it" Thats all well and good,
but they still had to learn it from somebody somewhere after a certain
period of study. Starting characters, especially Caitiff who don't
have the benefit of a clan mentor, shouldn't start out with the rare
clan-specific disciplines without a really good background
explanation. WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE WHY and HOW are good questions to
start with and they can go from there.
Furthermore, in the case of Thaumaturgy special considerations must be
made. Though it is treated as a Discipline, it is more of a Macro
Discipline and Hedge Magic system all rolled into one. It was
invented by the Tremere and is closely gaurded from outsiders by the
same as it is thier primary source of power and only real advantage
over the other clans. It takes years to learn and master
Thaumaturgy, thats why the Tremere have such a long apprenticeship
program. Its your game of course, but unrestricted access to all
disciplines takes away a lot of the point of being a member of a
certain clan and makes all Vampires pretty much homogenous.
Everyone might as well just play Caitiff to take advantage of the
reduced Discipline cost and just start off with one point in as many
hard to get Disciplines as they can afford and go from there.
Vmprmdnt
>Let's start another thread... If someone find a way to open the cave where
>numerous
>Cappadocian were trapped by Cappadocius, it could be logical to think that
>some of them
>would still be there, torporous. I say some of them because it's sure that
>those
>vampires jumped on each other throat and they "self-killed" them. But there
>could be
>some of them still "alive".
>
>What would those vampires do in the WoD of the present days???
>
I'm not going to go to deep into detail, but there are two PROVEN ways to do
this. A gaming group here did it. And I discovered a variation (I WILL KEEP
MY CLAN ALIVE< D**N IT!)
1) Find a True Brujah with high enough Temporis to travel through time. Go
back about the 1600, 1700 to ensure that your Cappadocian is not lunch, and
not to long into torpor to rip your vains out with hunger.
On your way back through time, hunt up a Garou who is basically 99.999995%
Child of Gaia (good luck) and snag them.
Once you have arrived at the prefered time, slip sideways to that lovely
little cave.
Send your lovely little Garou and a few aminals into the cave/temple via
slipping sideways. (The Umbra is your best friend at the moment)
Revive the pretty female Cappadocian in the library by feeding her the aminals.
She will still be hungry. Let her track down one or to others (if there are
any you found on the way) and have breakfast.
Pack all the books in the library. Yes, the Book of Nod is only missing A
(count 'em, ONE) section, so treat it with respect. And yes, that is
Cain's Mangus Nigrum book, and that is Cappadocia's copy, and yes, believe
it or not, there is one for Augustus (for more info on that, e-mail me).
Slip the books through the Umbra, then go you must grab your loverly Temporis
boy, get the librarian, and slip sideways while traveling through time. ( I
*think* that was how. . . .I can't remember) Get the Cappadocian to a safe
point in time, then go get the books. =)
Now return to modern day. Find the girl a haven, and give her lots of
protection and make her masquerade as a tremere (to gets her stats, please
e-mail) so the Giovanni don't get her.
She currently is gathering allies and starting to recreate the clan. She has a
childer who has her own childer. Thery are currently working in the True Hand
and stuff, and also trying to gain control in the Camarilla and the Sabbat.
Any ferther plans are restricted (meaning author/artist/white wolf/storyteller)
access.
The other way to do this is to use a Mage instead of a vampire. It makes it
easier because a Mage can move into the Umbra also, and can teleport the books
back as they come out of the cave/temple. =)
Ian Turner
Chris Steenhorst wrote:
> I don't know if anyone out there has also compiled a list like
> this, but if nobody has, wouldn't it be good to have such a list? :)
I have a Lotus spreadsheet of all the Clans and Bloodlines and Revenant
families and their Disciplines for ease of knowing what percentages
existed.
> CAPPADOCIANS (Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis) - Only one left
Several thousand may be still buried in Kaymakli (CB: Cappadocian) plus
the Infiotores who became the Samedi (also CB: Cappadocian), plus the
'Aquadiluvians' under Venice (CB: Giovanni), plus the occasional
Giovanni Embraced even today with the Cappadocian Weakness and not the
Giovanni one (CB: Giovanni) plus the Embraced Emperors of Byzantium
buried beneath that city (Byzantium by Night).
For Thaum, the Path of Geomancy from World of Darkness 1 might be a
thought.
Ian T
man...@geocities.com
In article <6dmprt$7...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
I think I've got a lot of it already. At home I have some summary charts that
I typed up for quick referance. They have the first 5 levels of the
Discipline, the rolls required and a breif description of each power. I have
them for all the disciplines in the following books:
Vampire
Players Guide
Storytellers Handbook
Players Guide to the Sabbat
Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat
Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand
Hunter's Hunted
Outcasts
Dark Alliance: Vancouver
World of Darkness 1st edition
The last two are replaced by KotE now anyway.
I also included all the Thaum Paths from these books. The stuff is in Lotus
word pro format, but I could put it into Word or even HTML.
Anybody want to help get it completed? The stuff needed would be for Dark
Ages and KotE. I don't have books for either, although I can borrow some Dark
Ages stuff.
AdamRLee
> It was
>invented by the Tremere and is closely gaurded from outsiders by the
>same as it is thier primary source of power and only real advantage
>over the other clans.
So where did the Tremere get it?? oh, they just started with it. Hmm.
sorry, this is supposed to be light hearted sarcasm, but you know the
usenett...
Adam
Mill...@msn.com
Wow! Thankyou!
millie
MillieCat
Storyteller, Vampire the Masquerade, Dallas by Night
http://www.multiboard.com/~mjames/DbN/default.htm
http://forums.msn.com/games/roleplaying/whitewolf/
Chris Steenhorst wrote in message <6di1ch$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
<snip>
Chris Steenhorst
(man...@geocities.com) writes:
>
> The last two are replaced by KotE now anyway.
>
> I also included all the Thaum Paths from these books. The stuff is in Lotus
> word pro format, but I could put it into Word or even HTML.
>
> Anybody want to help get it completed? The stuff needed would be for Dark
> Ages and KotE. I don't have books for either, although I can borrow some Dark
> Ages stuff.
Well, work has begun on a new version of the Great List (my pet
name for it). So far I have expanded the Clans and Bloodlines to include
their clan weaknesses. I will be starting into the Disciplines within the
next two days. I only have a few concerns:
1. What if White Wolf doesn't like it? We're taking information out of
hundreds of dollars worth of books and making it free.
2. As stated, I don't have all the information, so I'll be bugging all of
you for it. Okay?
3. The next time the list is released it STILL won't have KotE info. This
is simply a fact as I probably won't be getting it until after Apr 12.
That is all. :)
Chris Steenhorst
Vmprmdnt (vmpr...@aol.com) writes:
>> A World of Darkness 2nd Ed. In Egypt by night, the last surviving
>>Capadocian - Lazarus.
<Gaming annecdote snipped>
> Outta curiosity, would Lazarus Embrace any childer?
Ask him. :)
> Goth Code '98:
> bO2ahG6faSavdcbaHbaa7630ZPRTEntasqdadycZ3lniLd3E3
> GGc8oqbiiCDccdTLca2hdhxmg6AlisNjubRUMHabiacqlusUT
What is this? My code is much much longer than this, are we using
different codes? Mine's 3.1A.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
man...@geocities.com wrote:
[with honest and helpful, but misguided, intent]
> I think I've got a lot of it already. At home I have some summary
> charts that I typed up for quick referance. They have the first 5
> levels of the Discipline, the rolls required and a breif description
> of each power.
>
> Anybody want to help get it completed?
First of all: this is not a slam. Please don't take it as such.
Do not -- I repeat, do NOT -- post such a compilation publicly, or even
widely. To do so would be grievous copyright infringement, and
threatening to the livelihood of game designers, freelance writers, and,
to a lesser extent, the future of certain companies within the industry
itself. (The smaller houses are already struggling against the likes of
WotC without decreases in sales resulting from Internet rules-pirating.)
I'm hardly a legal practitioner (or even knowledgeable in same), but I
think Chris's excellent (general) descriptions are about as far as you'd
want to go in that direction. Take care.
-- S. Skoog
(who likes his dime-a-dozen freelance
contracts, thankyouverymuch)
Eborium
> > The last two are replaced by KotE now anyway.
> >
> > I also included all the Thaum Paths from these books. The stuff is in Lotus
> > word pro format, but I could put it into Word or even HTML.
> >
> > Anybody want to help get it completed? The stuff needed would be for Dark
> > Ages and KotE. I don't have books for either, although I can borrow some Dark
> > Ages stuff.
>
> Well, work has begun on a new version of the Great List (my pet
> name for it). So far I have expanded the Clans and Bloodlines to include
> their clan weaknesses. I will be starting into the Disciplines within the
> next two days. I only have a few concerns:
>
> 1. What if White Wolf doesn't like it? We're taking information out of
> hundreds of dollars worth of books and making it free.
Its a summary. People don't buy books just to see what sect a bloodline
belongs to and what disciplines they have; therefore a
clan/bloodline/discipline list is pretty innocuous. If anything, its an
advert for WW books.
I don't think they'll mind ;-)
J
=
Chris Steenhorst
After some due thought, I've decided not to be too specific in the
Great List. I will continue to add Clans, Bloodlines and Disciplines as
they are printed in WhiteWolf books in my trite abbreviations. What I
have decided to do, on the other hand, is go above level 5. Include ALL
the Disciplines. All the WHITE WOLF Disciplines, that is. To add every
Discipline ever made up by every player anywhere would be...Lunacy.
Steven Stutzman
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com wrote in article
<34ff2846....@news.nestofthorns.cnchost.com>...
>
> >I do ignore that silly rule in LARP that says Caitiff can't start with
> >Thaumaturgy, tho. They can get anything they want. :-)
> >
>
> Its not silly at all. Where did they learn it from? I know that this
> isn't the way WW developers do business, but all of the Clan-specific
> disciplines like Necromancy, Quietus, Viscretika,Spiritus, Sanguinius,
> Kai, Mortis, Melpominee, Serpentis, Mytherceria, Chimerstry, Obeah,
> Thanatosis, Viscisitude, and Thaumaturgy were all introduced as being
> developed and used solely by a particular blood line, in many cases
> being what sets the bloodline apart.
Perhaps the last line should read "in many cases being the ONLY thing that
sets the bloodline apart" (because without this cool new Discipline there
wouldn't have been a reason to create this bloodline).
Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
(Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
Also, you forgot Dementation, Protean, Bardo, Daimonion, etc.
> Furthermore, in the case of Thaumaturgy special considerations must be
> made. Though it is treated as a Discipline, it is more of a Macro
> Discipline and Hedge Magic system all rolled into one. It was
> invented by the Tremere and is closely gaurded from outsiders by the
> same as it is thier primary source of power and only real advantage
> over the other clans. It takes years to learn and master
> Thaumaturgy, thats why the Tremere have such a long apprenticeship
> program.
I thought there were examples of vampires using magic before the Tremere
existed.
(After all, if all magic is really the same in the WOD, then Tzimisce,
Baali, etc. were skilled in Thaumaturgy millenia before Tremere was born.)
Also, not having a real clan weakness is another Tremere advantage.
BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their primary
path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or something
similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very NON-Hermetic)?
Joe Gee
<Huge Snip>
In reference to the cappodocian you saved coming back and recreating "her"
clan she so loved and protecting it from the Giovanni. Why would she
necessarily hold such a great love for the lineage of Cappodocius. He is
the one who tossed her into the cave to rot for eternity. All of the
vampires in this said cave(unless I am mistaken as to which gruop of
torporous cappadocians you are referring to) were all the dregs and
cast-offs of the Cappadocian clan. The ones that did not fit with
Cappadocious view of the world. Those who were, as I recall:
1. Not on the road of heaven,
or-
2. At the very least making some sorta progress towards Cappadocious' rise
to godhead. Whatever that lunatic Cappadocious veiwed as progress anyway.
Those that got tossed into here were also the dumb ones of the clan. The
smart ones new something was up, and didn't show up. it is alluded to in
Clanbook Cappadocian that the absenty(sp?) vamps became the Samedi.
Cappadocious was one of the more unhinged creatures to exist. And they
call Malkavians mad, HAH!
This all above of course is from what I remember from reading clanbook
cappadocian
a year or so ago.
Also a quip on the second idea of getting said Miss Cappadocian with a
mages
help instead of the True Brujah. Time sphere does not allow travel
backwards in time. Magi can create Paradox, but not that kind=)
One of my personal beefs with temporis is its ability to do said thing.
But then as in all things, its your game.
Happy Gaming
Joe
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines.
K Kuhn
In article <01bd49d5$1798e640$3cf3...@sstutzma.skyenet.net>, "Steven
Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Perhaps the last line should read "in many cases being the ONLY thing that
> sets the bloodline apart" (because without this cool new Discipline there
> wouldn't have been a reason to create this bloodline).
>
True - one of the nice things about KotE, in my opinion, is that there
shouldn't be any need to introduce a new bloodline whenever someone comes
up with a new cool discipline. OTOH, the bloodlines can have a purpose,
if you have an odd concept and want to see what happens if you go with it,
without having to worry about what kind of effects it would have on the
gameworld if a major clan believed it. (And also, it's nice to be able to
put in a lot of work developing a worldview and know that it won't be
superceded in a few months by a published clanbook).
> Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
> (Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
>
FYI - In the Dark Ages sourcebook, Masters of the State, under the
Lasombra section, the Kiasyd are noted as having Potence, Obtenebration
and Mytheceria - and given the clan weakness of the Nagaraja, I'm damn
tempted to just rewrite them as a KotE vampire group, who allow the Black
Hand to think they're normal Western vampires - and KotE vampires know
necromancy type stuff well enough. Then again, I've rewritten necromancy
for my Kiasyd version to replace the usual Necromancy 1 with being able to
see into the Shadowlands, and a use of Necromancy to bind a wraith to tell
the truth & not hurt anyone is *highly* dependant on the Kiasyd being
truthful and non-violent themselves, although the Giovanni couldn't care
less if they've lied before getting information out of a wraith, and the
Samedi simply call on the Baron for help, so a lot of how successful their
necromancy is depends on how much they've pleased the loa lately.
Personally, I rather like having a few different approaches to how the
clans/bloodlines take the disciplines - like some suggestions that Quietus
1 (silence) should be taken as an alternate Obfuscate 1 power for
Assamites, frex, or that some artiste Toreador should be able to put
Presence effects into their art at level 5 rather than use Majesty, while
the poseur Toreador and Ventrue keep the usual Majesty power.
<snip>
>
> I thought there were examples of vampires using magic before the Tremere
> existed.
> (After all, if all magic is really the same in the WOD, then Tzimisce,
> Baali, etc. were skilled in Thaumaturgy millenia before Tremere was born.)
> Also, not having a real clan weakness is another Tremere advantage.
Oh yeah - Brujah (Menele), Nosferatu (Baba Yaga), Assamites, Tzimisce,
Setites (unless you decide that their version of Path of Corruption is
actually a different form of Serpentis than the usual, rather like the
Salubri had two versions of Valeran depending on what they usually did),
maybe even Lasombra if you look at the kind of experimentation that went
on when the Lasombra botched and created the first Kiasyd. Really,
nowadays it's more who doesn't have it after their clanbook comes out.
But I don't really like the approach that all Thaum is the same (and IIRC,
Koldunic Thaum is no longer considered quite the same as Tremere thaum, so
supposedly someone with high levels of Thaum in one version can't pick up
rituals/paths from another version - unfortunately, the default assumption
seems to be that most of the Paths etc. have duplicates in the other
version).
And as far as not having a real clan weakness - well, there's at least a
few people who will say that other clans don't have a weakness, but
actually have clan advantages - namely the Lasombra and Giovanni.
Caleb00420
In my games, I allow the Time sphere for reversing time, but it also
reverses the mage. Once they are to the time they want, they continue along as
normal, but must not display ANY knowledge of the future. Each time they do so
(such as running when they fought the last time around) they take one paradox
per turn until they are back on the timeline (which often is impossible).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caleb Archer, Project UNFORGIVEN Designation 0001
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Stutzman
K Kuhn <kkn...@ecity.net> wrote in article
<kknolte-0703...@ecity10.ecity.net>...
> In article <01bd49d5$1798e640$3cf3...@sstutzma.skyenet.net>, "Steven
> Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net> wrote:
> > Perhaps the last line should read "in many cases being the ONLY thing
that
> > sets the bloodline apart" (because without this cool new Discipline
there
> > wouldn't have been a reason to create this bloodline).
> >
> True - one of the nice things about KotE, in my opinion, is that there
> shouldn't be any need to introduce a new bloodline whenever someone comes
> up with a new cool discipline.
[snip]
I admit I often feel like scrapping the clan system but the clans seem too
imbedded in the game for it work properly without them. I may have to look
at KotE.
> > Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
> > (Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
> >
> FYI - In the Dark Ages sourcebook, Masters of the State, under the
> Lasombra section, the Kiasyd are noted as having Potence, Obtenebration
> and Mytheceria
[snip]
I didn't know about the Kiasyd change (too many damn books coming out).
[snip]
> And as far as not having a real clan weakness - well, there's at least a
> few people who will say that other clans don't have a weakness, but
> actually have clan advantages - namely the Lasombra and Giovanni.
>
I agree that the Giovanni "weakness" seems a little too useful. And how
does a lack of reflection affect vampires who don't seem to care about
mortals anyway (referring to modern Lasombra)?
Tiffany Fox
On 4 Mar 1998, SlpStck wrote:
> >ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
>
> WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
Holy Eris! And i thought the book said Assamite anti's could not be int
the 'Hand at ALL> Check your sources.
> >CAITIFF_________________(Kineticism)
>
> WRONG! caitiff can pick whatever disciplines they want, except thaumaturgy!
Have you READ the Outcasts book? I think you should....
> >LAIBON__________________(Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude) - Independent
>
> WRONG! they are extinct! just like the lamia and the warrior salubri!
>
Uhm, and Children of Osiris are extinct too, right? Egads. Please check
your sources next time....:)
Darker
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
Yes, the Tremere specialize in Thaumaturgy. But no, no matter how
much the Tremere crow about it, they weren't the ones who invented it.
Granted, they have done much more than all the other clans put together
with Thaum, but they weren't the originators.
Caine is suggested to have Thaumaturgical ability in the book of
nod. The earliest Tzimisce were developing their own version (can't
remember the name, it's in the DSark Ages book) long before the best part
of Tremere was a stain on his mothers sheets. The Nagaraja are also
pretty ancient, and they are fond of the Discipline as well. I won't
argue that the Tremere are the masters of their chosen field, but the
Discipline is far too widespread for far too long for it to be an
invention of a single clan, especially as one as power-mongering and
closed as the Tremere.
> >
> > >I do ignore that silly rule in LARP that says Caitiff can't start with
> > >Thaumaturgy, tho. They can get anything they want. :-)
> > >
> >
> > Its not silly at all. Where did they learn it from? I know that this
> > isn't the way WW developers do business, but all of the Clan-specific
> > disciplines like Necromancy, Quietus, Viscretika,Spiritus, Sanguinius,
> > Kai, Mortis, Melpominee, Serpentis, Mytherceria, Chimerstry, Obeah,
> > Thanatosis, Viscisitude, and Thaumaturgy were all introduced as being
> > developed and used solely by a particular blood line, in many cases
> > being what sets the bloodline apart.
>
> Perhaps the last line should read "in many cases being the ONLY thing that
> sets the bloodline apart" (because without this cool new Discipline there
> wouldn't have been a reason to create this bloodline).
>
> Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
> (Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
>
> Also, you forgot Dementation, Protean, Bardo, Daimonion, etc.
>
>
>
> > Furthermore, in the case of Thaumaturgy special considerations must be
> > made. Though it is treated as a Discipline, it is more of a Macro
> > Discipline and Hedge Magic system all rolled into one. It was
> > invented by the Tremere and is closely gaurded from outsiders by the
> > same as it is thier primary source of power and only real advantage
> > over the other clans. It takes years to learn and master
> > Thaumaturgy, thats why the Tremere have such a long apprenticeship
> > program.
>
> I thought there were examples of vampires using magic before the Tremere
> existed.
> (After all, if all magic is really the same in the WOD, then Tzimisce,
> Baali, etc. were skilled in Thaumaturgy millenia before Tremere was born.)
> Also, not having a real clan weakness is another Tremere advantage.
>
> BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their primary
> path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or something
> similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very NON-Hermetic)?
>
>
>
Stevil
E-mail address: smar...@ocean.st.usm.edu
X-mail coordinates: _)^*(*&^%&^%YGI&UY%&^%$E(&TGP(*&Y*&Y&^^&
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
The gods have spoken. They will be displeased if we deny them
money. They do mind, sadly, so don't get in trouble.
> >
> > 1. What if White Wolf doesn't like it? We're taking information out of
> > hundreds of dollars worth of books and making it free.
>
> Its a summary. People don't buy books just to see what sect a bloodline
> belongs to and what disciplines they have; therefore a
> clan/bloodline/discipline list is pretty innocuous. If anything, its an
> advert for WW books.
>
> I don't think they'll mind ;-)
>
> J
> =
>
>
>
Stevil
Nyartathotep
In article <01bd49d5$1798e640$3cf3...@sstutzma.skyenet.net>, "Steven
Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net> wrote:
> Perhaps the last line should read "in many cases being the ONLY thing that
> sets the bloodline apart" (because without this cool new Discipline there
> wouldn't have been a reason to create this bloodline).
Agreed. Many of the Bloodlines introduced (Daugthers of Cacophony,
Lamia, Arhimanes, Blood Brothers, Kiasyd) have very poor backrounds and
purposes and serve only as a vehicle for delivering the new, whizzy,
discipline into the game. Most of these could be rewritten using existing
disciplines (ex. Lamia & Thanatosis, DoC & Presence).
In all reality, some of the new Disciplines would be better served if
they were rewritten as Paths of Thaumaturgy (Necromancy, Nihilistics,
Temporis, Mytheceria and Spiritus). This is especially true when one
thinks of the Nagaraja, who were former Euthanatos Mages.
> Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
> (Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
>
> Also, you forgot Dementation, Protean, Bardo, Daimonion, etc.
Daimonion should be the first level of Dark Thaumaturgy. And the Baali
should have Dark Thaumaturgy as a Clan Discipline.
-snip-
> I thought there were examples of vampires using magic before the Tremere
> existed.
> (After all, if all magic is really the same in the WOD, then Tzimisce,
> Baali, etc. were skilled in Thaumaturgy millenia before Tremere was born.)
> Also, not having a real clan weakness is another Tremere advantage.
>
> BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their primary
> path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or something
> similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very NON-Hermetic)?
Agreed. Thaumaturgy and the Tremere need to be revised. Thaumaturgy is
not the sole purview of the Tremere, any more than the
"unique-to-one-clan" disciplines are to their clans. Even more so in the
case of Thaumaturgy, as anyone who has studied true magick or hedge magic
could develop it on their own without the need of a tutor. In otherwords,
Thaumaturgy is a discipline one could book learn.
I never liked the theory that Thaumaturgy was unique to the Tremere
only. In my game, Thaumaturgy is actually rather easy to learn (see above)
and Caitiff develop it naturally with amazing ease (much like Hollow
Ones). And each Clan has its sub-sect or individual sorcerors.
What really makes the Tremere frightenening is that everybody and his
brother in the clan has the discipline. Entire Chantrys work toward the
perfection of their an individual Path and explore all of the permutations
that could arise from said Path (much like the old Hermetic Houses).
And the Tremere have spent the past 800 some-odd years establishing a
Thaumaturgical Monopoly. Non-Tremere Thaumaturges are rare because the
Tremere have made them rare through "fatal accidents" and what not. As
soon as rumor of Caitiff Thaumturge reaches them, the local Chantry
mobilizes for an unofficial blood hunt. The non-clan Thaumaturges of
notoriety, like Baba Yaga, Louhi and the Koldun, are left alone because
the resources needed to eliminate them would be counter-productive. But
within the Tremere plans are in the works for the removal of such
obstacles to Pan-Thaumaturgical domination.
This reasoning fits V:tM's political cloak and dagger mood better than
some blanket policy statement rule stating the same. The Tremere should be
the Vampiric equivalent of the Technocracy when it comes to Thaumaturgy.
Go ahead and let PC's (Vampires, Caitiff or Ghouls) have Thaum, just make
sure that OOC they know what they are getting into...
Rod K.
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
"Fine. Done. Let's eat." -- G'Kar.
K Kuhn
In article <Nyarlathotep-0...@dial-27-8.ots.utexas.edu>,
Nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu (Nyartathotep) wrote:
<snip>
> In all reality, some of the new Disciplines would be better served if
> they were rewritten as Paths of Thaumaturgy (Necromancy, Nihilistics,
> Temporis, Mytheceria and Spiritus). This is especially true when one
> thinks of the Nagaraja, who were former Euthanatos Mages.
<snip>
> I never liked the theory that Thaumaturgy was unique to the Tremere
> only. In my game, Thaumaturgy is actually rather easy to learn (see above)
> and Caitiff develop it naturally with amazing ease (much like Hollow
> Ones). And each Clan has its sub-sect or individual sorcerors.
<snip>
I would note that making disciplines thaum paths instead will make them a
lot more common, simply because secondary thaum paths are current rating x
5, whereas out-of-clan disciplines are current rating x 7, and it's only
if you're gen 7 or lower that having access to a discipline 6 power
becomes a factor.
Combined with the explanation for how Visceratika was developed, which
seems to imply that you could come up with a ritual (no xp cost, unless
it's a house rule) at one level higher to mimic any discipline power, this
does explain why so many clans after the first seven clanbooks came out
have Thaum as a "almost-clan" discipline, but I'm not sure I really want
to go to a game where the question is why the Tremere haven't managed to
take over entirely, since given their obsessive research, they should have
equivalents of every other clan discipline by now (either path or ritual),
and as has been noted, their clan weakness isn't much of one, even if you
go with the first ed. clan weakness.
Partly because of that, if the oddball disciplines are something one
wishes to keep in one's game, I prefer to develop something that makes the
bloodlines interesting for something other than their oddball disciplines,
rather than simply making Thaum even more useful than it already is.
If nothing else, making the bloodlines interesting tends to involve some
rather odd worldviews, given that most of the obvious ones have already
been noted to belong to the major clans, which can lead to more different
situations if a vampire wants to learn one of the oddball bloodline
disciplines, as opposed to "learn this, and the Tremere are arranging
accidents for you as soon as you demonstrate you know it." IMO, anyway.
man...@geocities.com
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.980308...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>,
I've found the summary sheets very useful (saves me carrying a lot of books
around), but I don't want to get into any trouble with my favorites games
company.
So, the easy solution seems to be ask White Wolf. I know some of their staff
read this news group, so if any of them are following this thread, how about
letting us know if its OK to put a breif summary of disciplines up on the
internet?
In case none of the wolfers are following this thread, If I don't hear
anything after a few days, I'll send them I direct mail.
On their web site they say the following about putting information from books
up on websites:
"No more than 1500 words of text may be taken from any single White Wolf book
and no more than 10,000 taken from any White Wolf Products.
Any text used must cite the Book taken from, the page number, and the
author's name."
The summary is well bellow 10,000. If it keeps them happy I could put in the
page referances to where the full discipline is given.
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
One think I like to do with Tremere is make them Blood Bound to their
chantry (leader? Can't think of the proper title right now) and one step
toward being Blood Bound to the Council. When they screw up, they drink
again, in addition to whatever other punishment they might endure. They
also gain the emnity: Order of Hermes for free.
I really don't like Tremere.
sean.d...@swp.com
> One think I like to do with Tremere is make them Blood Bound to their
> chantry (leader? Can't think of the proper title right now) and one step
> toward being Blood Bound to the Council. When they screw up, they drink
> again, in addition to whatever other punishment they might endure. They
> also gain the emnity: Order of Hermes for free.
> I really don't like Tremere.
That's a good idea, have the Regent add a point or two to the mix. Just don't
let anyone find out.
"Honest Mr. Pontifex, I didn't mess with the council's blood, I must have had
a nosebleed and some just dripped in there. Is it getting kind of hot in
here?"
ZILLI
On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Tiffany Fox wrote:
>
>
> On 4 Mar 1998, SlpStck wrote:
>
> > >ASSAMITE ANTITRIBU______(Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus) - Sabbat
> >
> > WRONG! they are part of the black hand!
> Holy Eris! And i thought the book said Assamite anti's could not be int
> the 'Hand at ALL> Check your sources.
Assamites cant be in the Hand, not anti.
Ian Turner
sean.d...@swp.com wrote:
> That's a good idea, have the Regent add a point or two to the mix.
> Just don't let anyone find out.
>
> "Honest Mr. Pontifex, I didn't mess with the council's blood, I must
> have had a nosebleed and some just dripped in there. Is it getting
> kind of hot in here?"
I *seriously* doubt the blood of the Clans 4th Gen Inner Council is
allowed out of Vienna (or at the very least, the Chantries of the 7
Inner Councilors, tho that might change as one keeps dying, which is a
security risk...). Otherwise someone would A) have access to their
Blood (which is BAD), B) could lose, misplace, sell, have stolen said
Blood, resulting in it falling into the hands of Setites, Assamites,
Tzimisce, etc (which is VERY BAD) or C) some Regent deciding to save
time and use said 4th Gen Blood to Sire a bunch of 5th Gen Childer
(half of whom he'll Diablerize and the other half of whom he'll Bond to
himself and then go rogue at 5th Gen with a dozen or so Blood Bound 5th
Gen Thaumaturges...).
In the words of the Council. "No. You, come to me." :)
Ian T
Ian Turner
Nyartathotep wrote:
> Agreed. Many of the Bloodlines introduced (Daugthers of Cacophony,
> Lamia, Arhimanes, Blood Brothers, Kiasyd) have very poor backrounds
> and purposes and serve only as a vehicle for delivering the new,
> whizzy, discipline into the game. Most of these could be rewritten
> using existing disciplines (ex. Lamia & Thanatosis, DoC & Presence).
Agreed. The DoC and Presence match was a good one, it is finding too
more Disciplines that make sense that annoys me. I'd go with Presence,
Animalism and Fortitude. (Auspex just wouldn't fit with their Weakness)
The Lamia with Potence, Fortitude and Auspex would fit the Cappadocian
bodyguard concept well, better than a 'guard' with Deimos and Mortis,
neither of which serve well in this capacity (esp Mortis!).
> In all reality, some of the new Disciplines would be better served if
> they were rewritten as Paths of Thaumaturgy (Necromancy, Nihilistics,
> Temporis, Mytheceria and Spiritus). This is especially true when one
> thinks of the Nagaraja, who were former Euthanatos Mages.
With the ones listed, maybe. I am not sure if Temporis, Mytherceria or
Spiritus are needed in ANY form tho and would just axe them all.
> > Also, you forgot Dementation, Protean, Bardo, Daimonion, etc.
>
> Daimonion should be the first level of Dark Thaumaturgy. And the Baali
> should have Dark Thaumaturgy as a Clan Discipline.
Agreed. Bardo might work as a Path, as would the current incarnation of
Serpentis (meanwhile levels 1-5 of the new Setite corruption Discipline
would be the Path of Corruption followed by level 6 to 10 of Serpentis
from the Players Guide (not the stuff from DAC)) and Quietus. But then
everyone has Thaum of some sort...
> Agreed. Thaumaturgy and the Tremere need to be revised. Thaumaturgy
> is not the sole purview of the Tremere, any more than the "unique-
> to-one-clan" disciplines are to their clans. Even more so in the
> case of Thaumaturgy, as anyone who has studied true magick or hedge
> magic could develop it on their own without the need of a tutor. In
> otherwords, Thaumaturgy is a discipline one could book learn.
Conversely is would be the one Discipline one couldn't just develop like
one could with Potence or Auspex. Training and study points might be
required for every level!
> I never liked the theory that Thaumaturgy was unique to the Tremere
> only. In my game, Thaumaturgy is actually rather easy to learn (see
> above) and Caitiff develop it naturally with amazing ease (much like
> Hollow Ones). And each Clan has its sub-sect or individual sorcerors.
Caitiff get too many perqs anyway. Getting cost x6 for ALL Disciplines
is by far enough of a bonus power without having to give them some
secret power to poop out new Disciplines at will or even just think hard
and learn Thaumaturgy sans tutors and books and training.
> What really makes the Tremere frightenening is that everybody and his
> brother in the clan has the discipline. Entire Chantrys work toward
> the perfection of their an individual Path and explore all of the
> permutations that could arise from said Path (much like the old
> Hermetic Houses).
And they have access to libraries of Rituals, learning them XP-less at
will, whereas the Ventrue who happens to have a Dot of Thaum may never
find another Ritual in his unlife. Generally speaking a Tremere in a
city with other Tremere and a Chantry may well have access to more
Rituals and Paths than she will ever be able to learn...
> And the Tremere have spent the past 800 some-odd years establishing a
> Thaumaturgical Monopoly. Non-Tremere Thaumaturges are rare because
> the Tremere have made them rare through "fatal accidents" and what
> not.
Spirit Thaum 1 on anyone identified as a non-Tremere Thaumaturgist is
going to help get that persons permanant Willpower down to about 3 by
making him Botch his next few Path uses. Then he is Dominate-bait and
will 'Forget' that he ever knew Thaum...
> As soon as rumor of Caitiff Thaumturge reaches them, the local
> Chantry mobilizes for an unofficial blood hunt.
And once he is captured, the Tremere can choose any of a dozen options.
If his magic includes something that Chantry doesn't know, he can be
Blood Bound to the Clan and then Dominated into training anyone who
wants to learn it. Then he can be shuttled off to other Chantries like
the chattel he is. I wonder how many 'loyal Tremere' used to be members
of other Clans??? The Clan and House Oath does forbid KILLING them
after all. If they need to die, Vienna will make that decision.
> The non-clan Thaumaturges of notoriety, like Baba Yaga, Louhi and the
> Koldun, are left alone because the resources needed to eliminate them
> would be counter-productive.
Works are in place to pit the returning Eastern Europen neo-Feudalists
and Oreadean League Tzimisce against the force controlling Russia.
Louhi they'll deal with personally...
> But within the Tremere plans are in the works for the removal of such
> obstacles to Pan-Thaumaturgical domination.
> This reasoning fits V:tM's political cloak and dagger mood better
> than some blanket policy statement rule stating the same. The Tremere
> should be the Vampiric equivalent of the Technocracy when it comes to
> Thaumaturgy. Go ahead and let PC's (Vampires, Caitiff or Ghouls)
> have Thaum, just make sure that OOC they know what they are getting
> into...
:)
Ian T
Ian Turner
> > there shouldn't be any need to introduce a new bloodline whenever
> > someone comes up with a new cool discipline.
>
> too imbedded in the game for it work properly without them. I may have
> to look at KotE.
You don't even have to. Bear in mind that such a concept of Clan can be
redefined easily. In your game have Vampires Embrace people and teach
them all Disciplines at cost x 6. Weaknesses will be added to the Flaws
list (or Merits list in the case of the Lasombra or Giovanni ones!) for
those who want a 'Clan' Weakness and everyone will start out 'Clanless'
as would be normal for this variant WoD. Depending upon what one is, a
revolutionary, an environmental activist, a lunatic, a grotesquerie, an
artist, an occulist or a financier will determine which of the 'Clans'
*offers* you membership! Someone who was twisted by the Embrace (took
Flaw of Hideous) AND happens to be a worldclass pianist AND happens to
be neurotic and obsessive may actually end up choosing between Toreador,
Nosferatu and Malkavian!
In this world, one could only get Status over 1 by becoming accepted
into one of the cliques (although many are quite loose, with only the
Toreador, Tremere and Ventrue being picky and the Malkavians being more
than willing to 'train' you to suit their entry requirements...) and
becoming a member of one of the 'guilds' or 'clans' of Vampiric society.
Or you can axe Generation and say that all Kindred start at 13th and
must merely buy it up through a combination of drinking the blood of
Elders, Diablerie, spending XP to raise 'Generation,' Age, etc.
> I agree that the Giovanni "weakness" seems a little too useful. And
> how does a lack of reflection affect vampires who don't seem to care
> about mortals anyway (referring to modern Lasombra)?
Certainly is great to have a Giovanni in a fight vs Garou or Hunters or
Mages. Chomp, take some Agg (did I mention my Potence?) and then I
suck 3 BP, which does 6 additional HT levels. Assuming at least 1 Agg
wound got through the Soak to allow the bite in the first place, that is
a minimum of 7 HT levels if even 1 made it though unsoaked in the
initial Bite. My Nos would pay good Freebies or XP if he could BUY the
Lasombra and Giovanni FLAWS to enhance his Obfuscate and Huge Mouth /
Oversized Fangs Merits... (Bite Str (4+) +2 +Potence (2) Aggravated.
Can suck 4 BP, which would inflict 8 unsoakable wounds AFTER the initial
bite... Oh, to have Deimos 2 with this character and be able to do
18 Agg with that initial bite before that 8 unsoakable wounds!)
Ew!
Ian T
Ian Turner
Steven Stutzman wrote:
> BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their
> primary path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or
> something similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very
> NON-Hermetic)?
It probably was in the beginning. Note that in Dark Ages, the Clan
tends to take any of Lure of Flames or Movement of the Mind (all Forces
specialties) or Elemental Strength, Weather Control or Neptune's Might
(Forces/Matter) as Primaries in place of Blood if they want. They were
said to have been developing the Path of Blood for several years, so
presumably they *original* Tremere have the more Forces related ones as
Primaries as well. Once they came to terms with the fact that blood
was the god their kind worshipped, they figured that the other stuff
wasn't as important...
Interestingly the House Tremere went out of its way to destroy and
steal items from a druidic proto-Verbena House called Diedne before
becoming Vampires. Perhaps Goratrix realized he needed to know some
*serious* Life Magicks before going this far?
Ian T
Donald Bachman
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
: Steven Stutzman wrote:
: > BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their
: > primary path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or
: > something similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very
: > NON-Hermetic)?
Why the Order of Hermes wound up being identified with Forces I can
only guess at (and will later). What stereotype do Middle Ages sorcerers
fit the type of? Someone seeking to turn lead into gold. Matter really
should have become the tradition speciality (and of course, with X-forces,
Z-fields, and every other wield, alphabetic thing, the Sons of the
Ether should have been associated with Forces), except it would have
required getting past a fixation on Ball Of Abyssmal Flame.
: It probably was in the beginning. Note that in Dark Ages, the Clan
: tends to take any of Lure of Flames or Movement of the Mind (all Forces
: specialties) or Elemental Strength, Weather Control or Neptune's Might
: (Forces/Matter) as Primaries in place of Blood if they want. They were
: said to have been developing the Path of Blood for several years, so
: presumably they *original* Tremere have the more Forces related ones as
: Primaries as well. Once they came to terms with the fact that blood
: was the god their kind worshipped, they figured that the other stuff
: wasn't as important...
: Interestingly the House Tremere went out of its way to destroy and
: steal items from a druidic proto-Verbena House called Diedne before
: becoming Vampires. Perhaps Goratrix realized he needed to know some
: *serious* Life Magicks before going this far?
Only a rumor. :)
: Ian T
Donald
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com
On 7 Mar 1998 14:23:24 GMT, "Steven Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net>
wrote:
>Do you mean the same Necromancy that was known by at least 2 bloodlines
>(Nagaraja and Kiasyd) BEFORE the Giovanni became vampires?
Thats the game developers at work again. Thats my point about the
game developers getting dot crazy; the Giovanni came out in the
Players Handbook as having developed Necromany, then next thing you
know 2 other clans have it and as you say they predate the Giovanni.
In the case of the Nagaraja, the DSoBH doesn't specifically say how
they cross over to the Shadowlands (unless I missed it), though the
write up does say that they perform Thaumaturgical rituals, However
Thaumaturgy is not one of thier clan disciplines. The Nagaraja
Thaumaturgy would have been developed from teachings of Euthanatos and
a Mummy as mentioned in the write up and would be very much oriented
towards spirit and umbral applications.
From this I would draw the conclusions that the Nagaraja's clan
disciplines SHOULD be Thaumaturgy, Nihilistics, and Necromancy.
>Also, you forgot Dementation, Protean, Bardo, Daimonion, etc.
and a few others too probably; I wasnt trying to be comprehensive,
just illustrate a point :)
>> Furthermore, in the case of Thaumaturgy special considerations must be
>> made. Though it is treated as a Discipline, it is more of a Macro
>> Discipline and Hedge Magic system all rolled into one. It was
>> invented by the Tremere and is closely gaurded from outsiders by the
>> same as it is thier primary source of power and only real advantage
>> over the other clans. It takes years to learn and master
>> Thaumaturgy, thats why the Tremere have such a long apprenticeship
>> program.
>
>I thought there were examples of vampires using magic before the Tremere
>existed.
>(After all, if all magic is really the same in the WOD, then Tzimisce,
>Baali, etc. were skilled in Thaumaturgy millenia before Tremere was born.)
>Also, not having a real clan weakness is another Tremere advantage.
>
I think that Thaumaturgy needs to be redefined as a Hedge Magic
system and each Path as more of a minor discipline (an idea borne out
by the cost to raise them, the fact that they are mostly unrelated,
and that they must all be learned seperately).
Tremere Thaumaturgy is the most developed and robust form in modern
days, but other Vampires of different cultures have developed their
own blood magic over the eons. Some were hedge wizards or mages in
life and applied the concepts they had mastered to thier new form.
Others sought those who had done so, mortals or kindred, and learned
from them (such as Menele who studied 'spirit' magic in Persia and
India around 900 BC (long before the great great great great
grandfathers of the founders of the Order of Hermes were even born)
and used a Thaumaturgical ritual to level Pompei.)
In modern days magic is rare regardless of source, but I would say
that if a Hedge Wizard was Embraced they could attempt to translate
some of thier magic over through study and experimentation over the
course of several years and a lot of Int+Occult rolls. For a Mage I
dont think it would be so easy as True Magick is completely different
than Hedge Magic; rituals and rites are just window dressings; the
power come directly from thier Will. It could be done, ala Goratrix,
but would take a while.
The point to be clear on here is that a practitioner of Nagaraja
Thaumaturgy would have a completely different handle on things than a
practitioner of Tremere Thaumaturgy, and vice versa, as would others
who had developed thier own brand of Thaumaturgy. They would not
have access to each others rituals, although similar effects could be
duplicated by inventing a similar ritual, unless they recieved
instruction from some one who did know them, and even in such a case
I would set the difficulty of the Int+Occult roll to learn them higher
to represent paradigmal differences in belief structures.
Nagaraja would be well versed in the Path of Spirit, and the Path of
Corruption, and possibly the Path of Elemental Mastery and thier
Rituals would all center around the Umbra, spirits, crossing over, and
effecting things on the 'Other Side"
>BTW, if the Tremere were originally Hermetic mages, shouldn't their primary
>path be a Forces one (Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind or something
>similar) instead of blood magic (which seems very NON-Hermetic)?
They get the power to perform thier magic from thier blood, thus a
study of it was neccesary to allow further development. In the 1st
Edition Vampire, the path of Blood was a seperate Path and had to be
raised on its own. With 2nd Edition they lumped it in with the
Thaumaturgy rating itself. Theoretically all Vampiric Magic to
include the other disciplines is fueled by blood, regardless of
whether or not it requires an expenditure of blood to activate or use.
It is the power of thier blood that makes them supernatural.
I think that the Path of Flames, Movement of Mind, Path of Weather,
etc are all excellent examples of Tremere Thaumaturgy, where as Path
of Corruption was probably developed by some other group, likely the
Nagaraja or the Tzimisce.
SlpStck
>It's not, really. It's an example of what Caitiff can do. It doesn't exist
>in my games for the simple reason that it's just too bizarre.
>
>
my point exactally!
Steven Stutzman
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com wrote in article
<350722e7...@news.nestofthorns.cnchost.com>...
> On 7 Mar 1998 14:23:24 GMT, "Steven Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net>
> wrote:
> Thats the game developers at work again. Thats my point about the
> game developers getting dot crazy; the Giovanni came out in the
> Players Handbook as having developed Necromany, then next thing you
> know 2 other clans have it and as you say they predate the Giovanni.
I personally don't like either of those bloodlines (or most of the others
for that matter) so they don't exist for me. I think the developers should
be forced to take notes on the previous books and not be allowed to
contradict them (without good reason, of course).
> In modern days magic is rare regardless of source, but I would say
> that if a Hedge Wizard was Embraced they could attempt to translate
> some of thier magic over through study and experimentation over the
> course of several years and a lot of Int+Occult rolls. For a Mage I
> dont think it would be so easy as True Magick is completely different
> than Hedge Magic; rituals and rites are just window dressings; the
> power come directly from thier Will. It could be done, ala Goratrix,
> but would take a while.
>
I like this idea. I can imagine a vampire slowly converting his magic while
simultaneously trying to survive in the Kindred world. Will he attempt to
contact the Tremere or will he keep his abilities to himself? Etc.
> The point to be clear on here is that a practitioner of Nagaraja
> Thaumaturgy would have a completely different handle on things than a
> practitioner of Tremere Thaumaturgy, and vice versa, as would others
> who had developed thier own brand of Thaumaturgy. They would not
> have access to each others rituals, although similar effects could be
> duplicated by inventing a similar ritual, unless they recieved
> instruction from some one who did know them, and even in such a case
> I would set the difficulty of the Int+Occult roll to learn them higher
> to represent paradigmal differences in belief structures.
>
I may have to crack open the Mage book (it's been sitting on my shelf for
some time now) and look at converting rotes to lower-powered Ritual
equivalents.
> Nagaraja would be well versed in the Path of Spirit, and the Path of
> Corruption, and possibly the Path of Elemental Mastery and thier
> Rituals would all center around the Umbra, spirits, crossing over, and
> effecting things on the 'Other Side"
Good example.
Jonathan Rowe
In article <350722e7...@news.nestofthorns.cnchost.com>, killershri
k...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com writes
>In modern days magic is rare regardless of source, but I would say
>that if a Hedge Wizard was Embraced they could attempt to translate
>some of thier magic over through study and experimentation over the
>course of several years and a lot of Int+Occult rolls. For a Mage I
>dont think it would be so easy as True Magick is completely different
>than Hedge Magic; rituals and rites are just window dressings; the
>power come directly from thier Will. It could be done, ala Goratrix,
>but would take a while.
World of Darkness: Sorcerer suggests you can do fairly straightforward
point-for-point Magick-to-Thaumaturgy transformations after the Embrace.
--
Jon Rowe
Valkyrie Magazine
"Mundus Nihil Pulcherrimum"
Ian Turner
Donald Bachman wrote:
> Why the Order of Hermes wound up being identified with Forces I can
> only guess at (and will later). What stereotype do Middle Ages
> sorcerers fit the type of? Someone seeking to turn lead into gold.
> Matter really should have become the tradition speciality (and of
> course, with X-forces, Z-fields, and every other wield, alphabetic
> thing, the Sons of the Ether should have been associated with Forces),
> except it would have required getting past a fixation on Ball Of
> Abyssmal Flame.
Actually I agree with this 100%! I have always wondered why the Order,
which *looks* like a perfect place for Alchemist / Freemason /
Rosicrucian / sorta people turns out to be for Tim the Enchanter
wannabes. The Sons totally do not fit the stereotype of an Alchemist.
(well, not a successful one...)
Then again, the idea of the Akashics having Mind, the Adepts having
Correspondence, the Ecstatics having Time and the whole existence of
the Sphere of Prime in general don't do it for me.
About the only seamless fits are the Dreamspeakers and Spirit and the
Euthanatos (who don't fit anywhere else and seem MADE to fit with the
Sphere!) and Entropy. IMO. :)
Ian T
Ian Turner
killer...@nestofthorns.cnchost.com wrote:
> In the case of the Nagaraja, the DSoBH doesn't specifically say how
> they cross over to the Shadowlands (unless I missed it), though the
> write up does say that they perform Thaumaturgical rituals, However
> Thaumaturgy is not one of thier clan disciplines. The Nagaraja
> Thaumaturgy would have been developed from teachings of Euthanatos and
> a Mummy as mentioned in the write up and would be very much oriented
> towards spirit and umbral applications.
They have a few level 4 to 6 Rituals in DSotBH that allows them to
travel to and fro the Shadowlands, Shadowlands Passage, Mass Grave and
one more I think.
Needless to say it is mind-boggelingly *stupid* for a Clan to be
required to get 4 to 6 levels of an OOC Discipline to do their job...
I would prefer if all Thaumaturgy, even Dark or Koldunic variants AND
all Hedge Magics be unified somehow into ONE consistent source of magic
for all groups. Most groups would not have access to most of these
sources, but if a Nagaraja Spiritist captured and tortured the crap out
of a Setite Wraith, he might be able to learn Path of Corruption and
some Setite specific Rituals.
I very much do NOT like the half-dozen loosely related magical systems
out there, from Sphere magic to Gypsy magic to Mummy magic to Hedge
Magic to Theurgy to Garou/Kuei-Jin Rites to Thaumaturgy. Sure, True
Sphere Magick can be different and looser and more powerful, I don't
care if TWO systems exist, one for 'real' Mages and one for Hedge Mages,
but the idea that a Romani Medium and a Mummy Necromancer and a Hedge
Ephermeralist and a Giovanni Necromancer and a Tremere Spirit
Thamaturgist are all basically speaking different languages annoys me
to no end! Especially since they do slightly different things and one
needs to be able to do things that the writers didn't 'think of' until
later and are only available to someone with another power you've never
heard of...
For instance, Giovanni Necromancers must waste a lot of time attempting
to 'bind' and 'compel' the thin air. It's not like they could ever SEE
a spirit or wraith... Must be embarrassing to be 'guessing' all the
time whether or not you can do anything, "Man, stand back, *if* there
are any ghosts around I'll have em haunt you!" :)
Ian T
AdamRLee
>
>For instance, Giovanni Necromancers must waste a lot of time attempting
>to 'bind' and 'compel' the thin air. It's not like they could ever SEE
>a spirit or wraith... Must be embarrassing to be 'guessing' all the
>time whether or not you can do anything, "Man, stand back, *if* there
>are any ghosts around I'll have em haunt you!" :)
>
>Ian T
>
Wraiths (Per + Occ diff 6)" to the Level four power of Necromancy and enabled
summoned Wraiths to be sensed but not actually percieved, thus summoning a
wraith enables you to sense it's presence, but not to sense non summoned
wraiths.
Adam
man...@geocities.com
In article <35082C...@wpine.com>,
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
> For instance, Giovanni Necromancers must waste a lot of time attempting
> to 'bind' and 'compel' the thin air. It's not like they could ever SEE
> a spirit or wraith... Must be embarrassing to be 'guessing' all the
> time whether or not you can do anything, "Man, stand back, *if* there
> are any ghosts around I'll have em haunt you!" :)
>
> Ian T
They can see Wraiths with a percption + Alertness roll, along with the
Samedi. Its in Wraith 2nd edition, in the section near the back on the Fog.
Mant
Mikko Rautalahti
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) uttered these words:
>In the words of the Council. "No. You, come to me." :)
Damn right. They can afford the hassle. Just put the new guy in
an airplane and have him take a sip at Vienna. If possible, have him sit
next to the guys who fucked up and are taking a rather final trip to
Vienna. It should put the proper fear into their hearts to see someone
sweat blood and cry for Momma for the duration of the trip.
"Thank you for flying Tremair! Remember -- Tremair always gets
you there, safe and in time for that important meeting."
(The Tremere character I play in a LARP actually does have the
authority to send people to Vienna for disciplinary actions if need be. I
have a prop flight ticket book with a Tremair logo and tickets that can be
checked for "one-way" or "two-way". Taking that out and leafing through
it makes everyone present shut up right quick, I've found. I wonder why?)
- Mikki
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Mikko Rautalahti --- "I'll never know where she disappeared, but I can -
- watc...@iki.fi --- see her raising up out of the back seat now..." -
- WatchMan @ IRC ------ - Jim Steinman - http://www.iki.fi/~watchman/ -
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DShomshak
>Donald Bachman wrote:
>> Why the Order of Hermes wound up being identified with Forces I can
>> only guess at (and will later). What stereotype do Middle Ages
>> sorcerers fit the type of? Someone seeking to turn lead into gold.
>> Matter really should have become the tradition speciality...
>
>Actually I agree with this 100%! I have always wondered why the Order,
>which *looks* like a perfect place for Alchemist / Freemason /
>Rosicrucian / sorta people turns out to be for Tim the Enchanter
>wannabes.
Actually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good, _if_ (and it's a
bit "if") you look at authentic late-Medieval Hermeticism. A large part of
Hermeticism was based on astrology. The idea was that the "planets" radiated
mysterious influences which predisposed various things to happen. Mars, for
instance, caused conflict and fever (among other things), Venus governed
emotions, growth and fertility, etc. These emanations could be focused and
directed through rituals incorporating objects and numbers associated with the
planets -- for instance, using a leaden flask of bear gall in a ritual to
attract and direct Saturnian influences.
The planetary influences were transmitted through an intangible fluid called
"pneuma," which was also the quali-physical substance of the human spirit. One
could energize and shape one's pneuma through will, imagination and sensory
stimulation, create a channel to the appropriate planet through sympathetic
links, and finally send out an impulse of concentrated, structured pneuma to
make something happen. Some Hermetics insisted that this was Natural Magic and
theologically acceptable because it did not involve propitiating spirits -- or
at least it didn't _have_ to -- only manipulating _natural forces._ It's just
that the "Forces" the Hermetics believed in were the planets, will, Divine
Names, numbers and sympathetic links instead of gravity, electricity and the
other "Forces" recognized today. Even calling and binding angels and demons
still involved planetary forces; the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon, for
instance, make much of the need to perform summonings at the proper day and
hour of the associated planet.
References: The Magic of the Middle Ages, by Viktor Rydberg; and Spiritual and
Daemonic Magic from Ficino to Campanella by...I can't find my citation. If
you're a real glutton for punishment, you can look for Marsilio Ficino's
original works -- he pretty much launched Medieval Hermeticism through his
translations and commentaries on Greco-Roman works.
Some of the other Tradition paradigms make more sense if you delve into the
roots of their paradigms, too. I can't say I'm really happy with all the
connections, though.
Matter becomes more appropriate for the Sons of Ether when you consider the way
16-19th century scientists would explain forces such as light, heat and
combustion through "corpuscles" and "impalpable fluids" (caloric, phlogiston).
The whole theory of "ether" came from a perceived need for a physical medium
for light waves.
Mind for the Akashics is defensible through the emphasis Eastern religion and
philosophy places on the primacy of consciousness. Hinduism and Buddhism, at
least, are pretty clear in labelling consciousness as fundamental, with matter
as a secondary phenomenon. Any manipulation of reality, therefore, is a
manipulation of Mind.
The association of Life with the Verbena seems to come from a rather
superficial association of "paganism" with "sex and blood," with a bit of
trendy Gaia/Great Mother mysticism thrown in. The "Gaia" riff is actually more
significant. Some Classical cults and philosophers did believe that the world
-- even the whole universe -- was quite literally an incomprehensibly huge
living organism (derived, perhaps, from ancient myths about the world being
made from the corpse of a primal giant or monster, such as Ymir or Tiamat).
Magick to affect any aspect of the physical world, then, is Life magick on a
refined level.
Assigning the Dreamspeakers to Spirit was a no-brainer, as Ian said. Linking
the Celestial Chorus to Prime depends on whether you think the sphere of Prime
itself makes sense. I suppose it sort of works if you see the One as
paradigmatically identified with Quintessence, the force/substance/whatever
that underlies all phenomena and reality. Everything is Quint, so everything
is God, so all magick is Prime magick (directly or indirectly) and operates by
the favor of the One.
Virtual Adepts with Correspondence? Everything is information, they say.
Space is a statement of relation between things -- correspondences.
So...change the information, and you'll change reality: by accessing the code
for a phenomenon and giving it an "address" in space, one can do, well,
anything -- within the limits of your knowledge. All magick, therefore, is
fundamentally based on Correspondence. All the "virtual reality" folderol is
secondary.
I still don't have an adequate justification for linking the CoX to Time,
though; and I've never seen an explanation linking chance and destiny to
death-cultism that entirely satisfied me. Perhaps someone else has
suggestions?
Dean Shomshak
**********************************************************
Send e-mail responses to DSho...@juno.com.
The AOL address is a spam trap.
**********************************************************
sv...@ll.mit.edu
DShomshak wrote:
> Actually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good...
> Matter becomes more appropriate for the Sons of Ether...
Once more for the cheap seats --
_Mage_ canon firmly supports that this is an UNnatural linking. The
Hermetics were/are primarily concerned with the study of Matter, and
the Etherites both began and continued to develop their studies along
the lines of Force -- it was the order of their introduction into the
Council of Nine (Solificati (Matter)/Hermetics (Forces), Etherites
(Forces)) that dictated the teachings and foci both Traditions passed
on to their students.
_Traditionbook: Sons of Ether_ strongly hints, in fact, if not says
outright, that many Etherites of old (dating back to the original
Electrodyne defection) resented the Hermetic monopoly on the Sphere of
Forces, and would just as soon have seen the Order change over.
If, however, you go digging through the scrolls of Parmenides (which, I
think, must have been retconned as in-game justification for the Matter-
specific studies of the Sons of Ether), which focus on the essences and
interstitial entities which exist within, without, and between all
things, Dean's interpretation makes more sense. I'll certainly be
curious to see what _Sorcerors Crusade_ has to say on this score.
-- S. Skoog
Wiccan Warrior
RE: Paradigm/Sphere Links (was Re: Thaumaturgy)
BY: dsho...@aol.com (DShomshak)
QłActually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good, _if_ (and it's a
Qłbit "if") you look at authentic late-Medieval Hermeticism. A large part of
QłHermeticism was based on astrology. The idea was that the "planets" radiated
Qłmysterious influences which predisposed various things to happen. Mars, for
Qłinstance, caused conflict and fever (among other things), Venus governed
Qłemotions, growth and fertility, etc. These emanations could be focused and
Qłdirected through rituals incorporating objects and numbers associated with th
Qłplanets -- for instance, using a leaden flask of bear gall in a ritual to
Qłattract and direct Saturnian influences.
Hmmm...it would seem that astrology and other forms of divination would
actually carry a bit of Entropy magick to guide Fate, or Time to simply
foresee it. Why Forces for the Hermetics? Perhaps at the time White Wolf was
merely picturing the stereotypical academecian eremite hurling lightning bolts
and Hellfire at his enemies, that's all. Check out House Flambeau in the
Order of Hermes Tradition book for a few more clues to this.
QłThe association of Life with the Verbena seems to come from a rather
Qłsuperficial association of "paganism" with "sex and blood," with a bit of
Qłtrendy Gaia/Great Mother mysticism thrown in. The "Gaia" riff is actually mo
Qłsignificant. Some Classical cults and philosophers did believe that the worl
Qł-- even the whole universe -- was quite literally an incomprehensibly huge
Qłliving organism (derived, perhaps, from ancient myths about the world being
Qłmade from the corpse of a primal giant or monster, such as Ymir or Tiamat).
QłMagick to affect any aspect of the physical world, then, is Life magick on a
Qłrefined level.
Also, bear in mind that, to many of the Verbena, magick is in the Self and
the blood, and blood is life. It also makes a bit more sense to recall the
tales where Witches, Druids and Gypsies would punish offenders by transforming
them into harmless or lowly animals, plunging them into eternal slumber,
stealing their voice, making them unspeakably ugly, what-have-you...all
concepts within the domain of Life magick. Remember the Life-based feats of
greats such as Circe, Medea and Morgan Le Fey?
Speaking of which, some have determined that the figure Merlin of the
Arthurian legend was based on was actually a Briton Druid or bard...common
figures among the Verbena, if you read the Trad book. And wouldn't Merlin's
act of creating two dragons to battle over the fate of the Pendragon bloodline
be another act of Life magick, possibly combined with the fate powers of
Entropy?
--WW
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Ian Turner
Mikko Rautalahti wrote:
> Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) uttered these words:
> >In the words of the Council. "No. You, come to me." :)
>
> Damn right. They can afford the hassle. Just put the new guy in
> an airplane and have him take a sip at Vienna. If possible, have him
> sit next to the guys who fucked up and are taking a rather final trip
> to Vienna. It should put the proper fear into their hearts to see
> someone sweat blood and cry for Momma for the duration of the trip.
Even if that is what he was paid to do... :) (The *appearance* is
what matters here, not the fact!)
And bear in mind that one is only 'called' to Vienna for relatively
minor things. One is *brought* back to Vienna in a box with a Splinter
Servant and/or Shaft of Belated Quiescence and/or Soul of the Tree in
ones chest in the case of serious infractions. Amazing how a Regents
'friends' in Vienna can 'Escape' to him at a moments notice and then
transport themselves (and your staked body) home in the couple hours it
takes her to draw a circle for the 'Escape' back to Vienna...
> "Thank you for flying Tremair! Remember -- Tremair always gets
> you there, safe and in time for that important meeting."
Of course it does. Air Force 1 *wishes* it had the 'countermeasures'
this plane does... (Ward vs turbulence? Reverse surface-to-air
missiles? An air elemental bound to the rudder? Parachutes that don't
work?) :)
> (The Tremere character I play in a LARP actually does have the
> authority to send people to Vienna for disciplinary actions if need
> be. I have a prop flight ticket book with a Tremair logo and tickets
> that can be checked for "one-way" or "two-way". Taking that out and
> leafing through it makes everyone present shut up right quick, I've
> found. I wonder why?)
HAHAHA! That sounds AWESOME! What did you make it from?
Ian T
Ian Turner
DShomshak wrote:
> Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> writes:
> >Donald Bachman wrote:
> >> Why the Order of Hermes wound up being identified with Forces I can
> >> only guess at (and will later). What stereotype do Middle Ages
> >> sorcerers fit the type of? Someone seeking to turn lead into gold.
> >> Matter really should have become the tradition speciality...
>> Actually I agree with this 100%! I have always wondered why the
>> Order, which *looks* like a perfect place for Alchemist / Freemason
>> / Rosicrucian / sorta people turns out to be for Tim the Enchanter
>> wannabes.
>
> Actually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good, _if_
> (and it's a bit "if") you look at authentic late-Medieval Hermeticism.
> A large part of Hermeticism was based on astrology. The idea was
> that the "planets" radiated mysterious influences which predisposed
> various things to happen. Mars, for instance, caused conflict and
> fever (among other things), Venus governed emotions, growth and
> fertility, etc. These emanations could be focused and directed
> through rituals incorporating objects and numbers associated with
> the planets -- for instance, using a leaden flask of bear gall in a
> ritual to attract and direct Saturnian influences.
Planets were ONE aspect. Number, body parts, 'humors,' elements,
angelic names and influences and other things were just as important.
> The planetary influences were transmitted through an intangible fluid
> called "pneuma," which was also the quali-physical substance of the
> human spirit.
Others might call it Phlogiston or Ectoplasm or 'Zero-point power' or
Dunkle Materie or Ether...
The idea of a medium interpenetrating everything and through which
divine power and thought and whatnot tranverse from item to person to
force and back again is hardly a unique one. In fact it appears to be
the basis for both the Sphere of Prime and the Sons of Ether.
> One could energize and shape one's pneuma through will, imagination
> and sensory stimulation, create a channel to the appropriate planet
> through sympathetic links, and finally send out an impulse of
> concentrated, structured pneuma to make something happen. Some
> Hermetics insisted that this was Natural Magic and theologically
> acceptable because it did not involve propitiating spirits -- or
> at least it didn't _have_ to -- only manipulating _natural forces._
> It's just that the "Forces" the Hermetics believed in were the
> planets, will, Divine Names, numbers and sympathetic links instead
> of gravity, electricity and the other "Forces" recognized today.
> Even calling and binding angels and demons still involved planetary
> forces; the Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon, for instance, make
> much of the need to perform summonings at the proper day and hour
> of the associated planet.
This is *one* version of Hermeticism perhaps. The versions I have
studied have put the planets in their little charts as well, but are
far less interested in them, save as dating mechanisms for when the
'magic' will work most efficaciously. They also tended to use the
metals and parts and numbers most efficacious to their goals as well,
but this doesn't mean that the metal or number alone was the source
of the magic, any more than the planets were.
The overall goal of Hermetic 'magic' appears to be refining the base
into the pure as a metaphor for spiritual enlightenment. Eventually
the mystics mind and soul are so refined by his explorations that he
should be able to transform matter by will alone. Turning lead into
gold or finding the Philosophers Stone is merely a metaphor for
self-Awakening (in Mage terms), although such acts were necessary
physical steps on the road to Enlightenment.
Given this focus, anything from Prime (represented by the 'true name'
or 'pure form' of a thing) to Matter to Spirit (all things being
primarily Spirit and totally replacing/incorporating Prime) would be
more appropriate. Even Correspondence (with the planet = liver = red
= number 4 or whatnot correlations between items and feelings and
concepts to affect one or the other through bonds of sympathy) would
be better than Forces IMO.
Hurling lightning and fire is far more 'Ars Magica' high-fantasy and
has no real bearing (IMO) on the activities of the medieval Hermetic
scholar, who spend more time dissecting things, summoning or calling
upon spirits or demons or angels, brewing noxious compounds and making
love charms and divinations for the yokels.
Even the archetypal fantasy wizard, Gandalf, accomplished most of his
pyrotechnics through fireworks and not some sort of Pug/Milamber like
hurling about of energy and Gandalf was supposed to be a demigod!
Interesting.
> Assigning the Dreamspeakers to Spirit was a no-brainer, as Ian said.
> Linking the Celestial Chorus to Prime depends on whether you think
> the sphere of Prime itself makes sense. I suppose it sort of works
> if you see the One as paradigmatically identified with Quintessence,
> the force / substance / whatever that underlies all phenomena and
> reality. Everything is Quint, so everything is God, so all magick
> is Prime magick (directly or indirectly) and operates by the favor
> of the One.
God is fueling my talisman? I dunno, that sounds... disrespectful. :)
I think of 'faith' based magics as being Mind magics at their best.
From swaying a crowd to a deathbed conversion to faith healing to a
curse to religious ecstasy to speaking tongues to calming the beasts
to... So many examples (especially modern ones that do not involve
rains of toads!) seem to be best exemplified by Mind magics.
> Virtual Adepts with Correspondence? Everything is information, they
> say. Space is a statement of relation between things --
> correspondences. So...change the information, and you'll change
> reality: by accessing the code for a phenomenon and giving it an
> "address" in space, one can do, well, anything -- within the limits
> of your knowledge. All magick, therefore, is fundamentally based on
> Correspondence. All the "virtual reality" folderol is secondary.
While I think your rationales for Life and Matter and Mind being where
they are are only *somewhat* forced, I think this one is screaming...
> I still don't have an adequate justification for linking the CoX to
> Time,
Drugs and such also warp your sense of space as well. So to make the
time-dilation effects of pot your basis for a Sphere and Trad seems a
bit 'out there...' The effects, once again, are only on the MIND, not
on Time (or Space or the existence of pink elephants) itself.
The Spheres of Time and Space are just properties that determine the
range and duration of other effects. Anything Time can do, Life or
Matter or Entropy can do almost as well, so what is the point? The
Sphere of Correspondance nicely explains Crystal Balls and
Teleportation, but really isn't big enough a concept for a Sphere of
its own IMO.
> though; and I've never seen an explanation linking chance and
> destiny to death-cultism that entirely satisfied me. Perhaps
> someone else has suggestions?
This one actually works for me because it seems like the Trad was
invented almost out of whole cloth for the Sphere to have a proponent.
(OK, true, the VA's, Sons and CoX were pretty much invented too...)
I like the whole idea of a Trad that learns of Fate and becomes the
slave to what they see, forced to shoehorn along the destiny they
foresee and kill off anyone who is gumming up the 'great wheel' and
greasing the axles of human history with human blood. Like Cassandra,
their precognition and hints of awareness regarding 'the cosmic Plan'
makes them no friends and is as much a curse as a blessing.
Ian T
Mikko Rautalahti
>> Damn right. They can afford the hassle. Just put the new guy in
>> an airplane and have him take a sip at Vienna. If possible, have him
>> sit next to the guys who fucked up and are taking a rather final trip
>> to Vienna. It should put the proper fear into their hearts to see
>> someone sweat blood and cry for Momma for the duration of the trip.
>Even if that is what he was paid to do... :) (The *appearance* is
>what matters here, not the fact!)
Of course. =)
>And bear in mind that one is only 'called' to Vienna for relatively
>minor things. One is *brought* back to Vienna in a box with a Splinter
>Servant and/or Shaft of Belated Quiescence and/or Soul of the Tree in
>ones chest in the case of serious infractions. Amazing how a Regents
>'friends' in Vienna can 'Escape' to him at a moments notice and then
>transport themselves (and your staked body) home in the couple hours it
>takes her to draw a circle for the 'Escape' back to Vienna...
Well, this sort of depends. If you've made a major fuck-up by
accident but the boys in charge still think that they need to ...
discipline you a bit (whether that is by a Blood Bond or some high level
Dominate, or perhaps a Blood Contract), you don't have to be staked.
After all, at least that way you know what's going to happen to you. Fear
and ignorance work extremely well.
Fucking up on purpose... that's another thing entirely.
>> "Thank you for flying Tremair! Remember -- Tremair always gets
>> you there, safe and in time for that important meeting."
>Of course it does. Air Force 1 *wishes* it had the 'countermeasures'
>this plane does... (Ward vs turbulence? Reverse surface-to-air
>missiles? An air elemental bound to the rudder? Parachutes that don't
>work?) :)
Not to mention the friendly stewardesses. "Oh, don't worry, dear,
I'm sure it's nothing to worry about."
>> (The Tremere character I play in a LARP actually does have the
>> authority to send people to Vienna for disciplinary actions if need
>> be. I have a prop flight ticket book with a Tremair logo and tickets
>> that can be checked for "one-way" or "two-way". Taking that out and
>> leafing through it makes everyone present shut up right quick, I've
>> found. I wonder why?)
>HAHAHA! That sounds AWESOME! What did you make it from?
Well, I mostly just used a laser printer and colored paper, and a
bit of time with PageMaker. Easy peasy. That, like most props, is really
pretty simple, but looks impressive enough to convince people. After all,
if you can pretend that the geek next to you is actually a vampire lord,
pretending that the prop flight ticket books is the real thing is a
cakewalk. ;)
DShomshak
In article <350EB4...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> writes:
>DShomshak wrote:
>> Actually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good, _if_
>> (and it's a bit "if") you look at authentic late-Medieval Hermeticism.
>> A large part of Hermeticism was based on astrology...
>> It's just that the "Forces" the Hermetics believed in were the
>> planets, will, Divine Names, numbers and sympathetic links...
>This is *one* version of Hermeticism perhaps. The versions I have
>studied have put the planets in their little charts as well, but are
>far less interested in them, save as dating mechanisms for when the
>'magic' will work most efficaciously. They also tended to use the
>metals and parts and numbers most efficacious to their goals as well,
>but this doesn't mean that the metal or number alone was the source
>of the magic, any more than the planets were.
Modern ritual magic perhaps plays down the idea of literal emanations from the
planets (though the idea turns up as recently as Crowley's novel Moonchild),
but the sources I cited claim this was quite literally what the old Hermetics
believed was central to their magic. "Ficino to Campanella" quotes one
Hermetic from the period:
"Some people assert that the feelings and conceptions of our souls can by the
force of the imagination be rendered volatile and corporeal, so that, in
accordance with their quality, they can be carried up to certain planets and,
affected and strengthened by the power of the planet, they will come down again
to us and will obey us in whatever we want."
-- Fabio Paolini, Hebdomades
The importance of the metals, colors, body parts and such was for their use in
attracting the planetary energies. Ficino emphasized colors, music and
perfumes for this purpose; Agrippa seems to have been more interested in
metals, plants, animals and angelic names.
To go into more detail, Medieval hermeticism seems to have believed in three
levels of forces. First were the forces of name and number, acting in the
Empyrean World of God and the angels. Next were the planetary/pneumatic forces
of the Astral World. Finally there were the elemental forces of the Material
World.
>Hurling lightning and fire is far more 'Ars Magica' high-fantasy and
>has no real bearing (IMO) on the activities of the medieval Hermetic
>scholar, who spend more time dissecting things, summoning or calling
>upon spirits or demons or angels, brewing noxious compounds and making
>love charms and divinations for the yokels.
Well, you have a point there. Like I said, the "forces" the authentic
Hermetics believed in were an explanation for _all_ magic; there's nothing
about the theory of pneumatic emanations that _especially_ suggests the ability
to throw a fireball or turn invisible.
>> Some of the other Tradition paradigms make more sense if you delve
>> into the roots of their paradigms, too. I can't say I'm really happy
>> with all the connections, though.
>> Linking the Celestial Chorus to Prime depends on whether you think
>> the sphere of Prime itself makes sense.
>God is fueling my talisman? I dunno, that sounds... disrespectful. :)
God is "fueling" _everything._ And that's not a talisman, you infidel, it's a
holy relic! ;-)
>I think of 'faith' based magics as being Mind magics at their best.
>From swaying a crowd to a deathbed conversion to faith healing to a
>curse to religious ecstasy to speaking tongues to calming the beasts
>to... So many examples (especially modern ones that do not involve
>rains of toads!) seem to be best exemplified by Mind magics.
Well, such obvious Mind effects sound like what a group of religious magicians
would most _want_ to do, regardless of how they believe their magic works.
I think you've found a basic problem with the "Tradition Sphere" setup: The
paradigm suggests one Sphere, but the Trad's favored activities and goals
suggest another. The Akashic paradigm is based on everything being an aspect
of consciousness, but their distinctive "schtick" is kicking the stuffing out
of people with their martial arts. Lots of physical training, Taoist "internal
alchemy," that sort of stuff. Life? Forces?
I've heard that originally, each Tradition was to receive _two_ favored
Spheres. That would make things much easier: one Sphere for how they believe
their magic works, and another for what they most like to do.
>> Virtual Adepts with Correspondence? Everything is information, they
>> say.
>While I think your rationales for Life and Matter and Mind being where
>they are are only *somewhat* forced, I think this one is screaming...
<Pout> Well, I tried. And they need _something_ more to justify them than all
that 'VR' garbage. It seems to me that the "relatedness" aspects of
Correspondence form a better connection between magick and computers. Then
again, all that high-tech electronics suggests Forces...and Mind is the premier
Sphere of information...
>[re CoX]: The effects, once again, are only on the MIND, not
>on Time (or Space or the existence of pink elephants) itself.
I think Mind is more appropriate for the CoX too. The Tradbook finally made it
clear that the center of their paradigm wasn't drugs, per se, it was _anything_
that changed consciousness. There are some passages in William Blake's
"Marriage of Heaven and Hell" that suggest a connection between artistic
inspiration, sensual enjoyment and "the Eternal World, of which this Material
World is but a shadow" -- but it's awfully thin and indirect. (Blake would
make a great CoX, though.)
>>I've never seen an explanation linking chance and
>> destiny to death-cultism that entirely satisfied me. Perhaps
>> someone else has suggestions?
>I like the whole idea of a Trad that learns of Fate and becomes the
>slave to what they see, forced to shoehorn along the destiny they
>foresee and kill off anyone who is gumming up the 'great wheel' and
>greasing the axles of human history with human blood. Like Cassandra,
>their precognition and hints of awareness regarding 'the cosmic Plan'
>makes them no friends and is as much a curse as a blessing.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the Thanatoics too, to the extent that I can
make sense of them. It's just that connection between probability and death
seems, to use your phrase, forced to the point of screaming -- once youget past
the rather trite idea that the one certain Destiny is that everyone eventually
dies.
E. R. Dodds, in The Greeks and the Irrational, argues that much of late
Classical religion -- the astral/solar mystery religions and gnosticism -- and
the ubiquity of astrology grew out of questions about chaos and order in the
universe. Astrology and religions like the Isis cult claimed that hidden in
the dangerous chaos of earthly events there was a secret order and meaning,
that could be seen in the stars and planets. The gnostics recognized that this
replaced the horror of anarchy with the horror of mechanical determinism; the
only escape was outside reality completely, to the annihilation of union with
the True God, the Father.
Hmm. Chance, destiny -- and annihilation. Some gnostics believed in
reincarnation, too. Maybe that's the link.
DShomshak
>DShomshak wrote:
>> Actually, the fit between the OoH and Forces is pretty good...
>> Matter becomes more appropriate for the Sons of Ether...
>
>Once more for the cheap seats --
>
>_Mage_ canon firmly supports that this is an UNnatural linking. The
>Hermetics were/are primarily concerned with the study of Matter, and
>the Etherites both began and continued to develop their studies along
>the lines of Force -- it was the order of their introduction into the
>Council of Nine (Solificati (Matter)/Hermetics (Forces), Etherites
>(Forces)) that dictated the teachings and foci both Traditions passed
>on to their students.
While it may be out of line for this cheap-seat-sitting worm to disagree with a
great Master of Canon Law...
This does leave the question of why, therefore, one type of magickal effect
became easier to learn, even though it didn't fit either the Tradition's
paradigm or main interests. "Sorry, Porthos, you can't study alchemy any more.
You don't have a Solificati union card. The Council says we prefer Forces, and
that's final." "Whaddaya mean I have to teach my students all about material
transmutations? I work with electricity, dammit! For this we left the Order
of Reason?"
"Unnatural" the linkage may be, but there ought to be at least _some_ reason
why mages of a Tradition find one Sphere easier to learn than all the rest --
and I can't see "The council says so" as an adequate reason. Either there
should be some comprehensible link between Tradition Sphere and paradigm or
interests, or the idea of the Tradition Sphere should never have been included.
Ian Turner
DShomshak wrote:
> To go into more detail, Medieval hermeticism seems to have believed
> in three levels of forces. First were the forces of name and number,
> acting in the Empyrean World of God and the angels.
Sort of a Correspondence/Prime mixture where the ideal affects the
reality and the form changes or is controlled by the one who can strike
at its archetype or 'name.'
> Next were the planetary/pneumatic forces of the Astral World.
Which seem very Son of Ether, but would have more to do with the above
sort of thing than with Matter.
> Finally there were the elemental forces of the Material World.
Forces.
> Well, you have a point there. Like I said, the "forces" the authentic
> Hermetics believed in were an explanation for _all_ magic; there's
> nothing about the theory of pneumatic emanations that _especially_
> suggests the ability to throw a fireball or turn invisible.
Generally speaking the Hermetics were more practical than that. :)
> >I think of 'faith' based magics as being Mind magics at their best.
> >From swaying a crowd to a deathbed conversion to faith healing to a
> >curse to religious ecstasy to speaking tongues to calming the beasts
> >to... So many examples (especially modern ones that do not involve
> >rains of toads!) seem to be best exemplified by Mind magics.
>
> Well, such obvious Mind effects sound like what a group of religious
> magicians would most _want_ to do, regardless of how they believe
> their magic works.
>
> I think you've found a basic problem with the "Tradition Sphere"
> setup: The paradigm suggests one Sphere, but the Trad's favored
> activities and goals suggest another. The Akashic paradigm is based
> on everything being an aspect of consciousness, but their distinctive
> "schtick" is kicking the stuffing out of people with their martial
> arts. Lots of physical training, Taoist "internal alchemy," that
> sort of stuff. Life? Forces?
Between their 'mind over body' stunts and superhuman feats of strength,
endurance and agility, it seems clear that Life is the Sphere they
would use most often, assuming they were primarily based off of chop-
sockey 'kickface' movies.
> I've heard that originally, each Tradition was to receive _two_
> favored Spheres. That would make things much easier: one Sphere for
> how they believe their magic works, and another for what they most
> like to do.
This would be MUCH better IMO. The whole One Trad/One Sphere concept
is pretty smurfy anyway. Some Akashics are going to want to breathe
fire and 'become the dragon' and so study Life and Forces, others are
going to like breaking really strong objects with their foreheads, Tao
Alchemy and walking on ricepaper, so Matter is going to be their cup of
tea. At least with TWO Spheres, their is a chance one of them could be
appropriate to their paradigm.
I see the Trads as:
Akashic Brotherhood - Life
Celestial Chorus - Mind
Cult of Ecstasy - Mind
Dreamspeakers - Spirit
Euthanatos - Entropy
Order of Hermes - Prime/Correspondence?
Sons of Ether - Forces
Verbena - ? (the whole 'witch/druid' sctick covers a LOT of ground!)
Virtual Adepts - ? (Mind/Prime/Correspondence?)
> <Pout> Well, I tried. And they need _something_ more to justify
> them than all that 'VR' garbage. It seems to me that the
> "relatedness" aspects of Correspondence form a better connection
> between magick and computers. Then again, all that high-tech
> electronics suggests Forces...and Mind is the premier Sphere of
> information...
A better author than what they had could have done something with the
whole VR angle. I could see the creation of a virchworld as a
replacement for the loss of the human soul/spirit during the sundering
of Tellurian from Umbra, but with the option of CONTROL. Unlike this
'dangerous' Wyld Umbra full of unquantifiables, the Technocratic VAs
were to introduce mankind to a new 'umbra' full of sanitized 'demons'
and 'dragons' and whatnot in VR Doom scenarios and let the Sleepers blow
them away, symbolically removing themselves further and further from any
belief in such creatures (and certainly from any bugaboo fears about
them, after all, Duke Nukem always wins doesn't he? And he can always
reboot!). But the VA's noticed the inherent mass Awakening potential of
placing people in VR simuworlds where they could affect reality at a
whim. Don't like your virtual office? Hit a button and make it bigger
or more intimate or darker or plaid or everyone in it into naked Cindy
Crawford clones. Once they got people USED to this level of control,
they could enhance and 'blur the edges' between virtual reality and v
1.0, creating 'Awakenings' as people became so confused that they
became able to make snap changes in the 'format' or 'texture' of the
material world around them (their first Awakenings often displayed
powers to create or delete objects from areas they THOUGHT were virtual
mockups, thus displaying either Correspondence (to teleport things in
and out), Matter (to create and / or reshape things) or Prime (to
create a Pattern and let local matter and forces rush to 'fill the
void')) This discovery upset the Timetable. Yes, the Technocracy
wanted everyone to Awaken, but all together gloriously and equally, not
hodgepodge and pellmell, to scatter between Tradition and Marauder and
Nephandi alike!
> I think Mind is more appropriate for the CoX too. The Tradbook
> finally made it clear that the center of their paradigm wasn't drugs,
> per se, it was _anything_ that changed consciousness.
Pain, pleasure, fasting, even religious ecstasy!
> There are some passages in William Blake's "Marriage of Heaven and
> Hell" that suggest a connection between artistic inspiration, sensual
> enjoyment and "the Eternal World, of which this Material World is
> but a shadow" -- but it's awfully thin and indirect. (Blake would
> make a great CoX, though.)
Agreed! Tantric philosophy would seem to fall somewhere into CoX
belief as well, even if it is the rigorus DENIAL of pleasure that they
believe fills them with power stolen from the gods...
> >>I've never seen an explanation linking chance and destiny to
> >>death- cultism that entirely satisfied me. Perhaps someone else
> >>has suggestions?
>
> >I like the whole idea of a Trad that learns of Fate and becomes the
> >slave to what they see, forced to shoehorn along the destiny they
> >foresee and kill off anyone who is gumming up the 'great wheel' and
> >greasing the axles of human history with human blood. Like
> >Cassandra, their precognition and hints of awareness regarding 'the
> >cosmic Plan' makes them no friends and is as much a curse as a
> >blessing.
>
> Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the Thanatoics too, to the extent
> that I can make sense of them. It's just that connection between
> probability and death seems, to use your phrase, forced to the point
> of screaming -- once you get past the rather trite idea that the one
> certain Destiny is that everyone eventually dies.
Death and Taxes, the last Mages standing will be the Euthanatos and
the Syndicate??? :)
> E. R. Dodds, in The Greeks and the Irrational, argues that much of
> late Classical religion -- the astral/solar mystery religions and
> gnosticism -- and the ubiquity of astrology grew out of questions
> about chaos and order in the universe.
We fear what we cannot control, so we invent means of 'influencing'
such things with starcharts and formulae and seismometers and traffic
reports. None of them have the slightest effect on what they are
recording/predicting, but they make us feel better. Knowledge may not
actually BE power, but it makes one feel better to have seen the face
of the enemy and know his measure. A enemy without a name or a face is
the worst thing in the world, he could have ANY power or any amount of
influence or be sitting right next to you. We need labels and names to
make things small and controllable, else our fears and apprehensions
will turn them into giants and monsters!
Ah, the power of language to bind the beast! Zelazny had an AMAZING
bit on the power of words and the Nameless in Lord of Light. I would
strongly recommend it, I think you'd like it!
> Astrology and religions like the Isis cult claimed that hidden in
> the dangerous chaos of earthly events there was a secret order and
> meaning, that could be seen in the stars and planets. The gnostics
> recognized that this replaced the horror of anarchy with the horror
> of mechanical determinism; the only escape was outside reality
> completely, to the annihilation of union with the True God, the
> Father.
>
> Hmm. Chance, destiny -- and annihilation. Some gnostics believed in
> reincarnation, too. Maybe that's the link.
The Hindu believe that annhilation/assimilation into the Brahman, the
cosmic All, as *winning* and reincarnation means you had failed once
again... :)
Ian T
Anders Sandberg
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> writes:
> Death and Taxes, the last Mages standing will be the Euthanatos and
> the Syndicate??? :)
"In the long run, we are all dead."
Was it John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith who said it? Maybe the dismal
science really is an euthanatos offshoot? :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
a...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
Ian Turner
> > the Syndicate??? :)
>
>
> Was it John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith who said it? Maybe the dismal
> science really is an euthanatos offshoot? :-)
I don't know, the mechanism and determinism and reductionism seem so
futile and bleak and pointless that one would think the Hollow Ones
would have more to do with them than the Euthanatos.
Personally I think the assassins should be only one of two major
branches of the Trad. Every tree needs pruning true, but a proper
gardner also plants new seedlings and waters the thing from time to
time... So a whole subgroup dedicated not to making bad things happen
to the unworthy, but to making GOOD things happen to the worthy would
seem a necessary first step.
Ian T
Zoran Bekric
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
>DShomshak wrote:
<slice and dice>
>> I still don't have an adequate justification for linking the CoX to
>> Time,
>
>Drugs and such also warp your sense of space as well. So to make the
>time-dilation effects of pot your basis for a Sphere and Trad seems a
>bit 'out there...' The effects, once again, are only on the MIND, not
>on Time (or Space or the existence of pink elephants) itself.
>
>The Spheres of Time and Space are just properties that determine the
>range and duration of other effects. Anything Time can do, Life or
>Matter or Entropy can do almost as well, so what is the point? The
>Sphere of Correspondance nicely explains Crystal Balls and
>Teleportation, but really isn't big enough a concept for a Sphere of
>its own IMO.
Actually, I think linking the CoX to Time is fairly straightforward.
(I) In the ancient world seers would routinely ingest and/or inhale
various substances in order to achieve an altered sate of conscious in
which they would make pronouncements which were treated as prophecy誼oth
in the sense of explaining the will of the gods to their ordinary mortals
and (more significantly in this context) in the sense of predicting the
future. The most famous example would be the Oracle at Delphi where the
priestess (the Pythia) would breath in the fumes of burning bay leaves
until she achieved a state of 'divine inspiration.'
The connection between predicting the future and Time should be, I think,
obvious. Throw in the fact that drug use was involved and you have the CoX
-- or, at least, the Seers of Chronos, one of the predecessor cults of the
CoX.
(II) Extreme physical states -- great pleasure, pain, fear, anger,
anticipation, etc. -- engender states of consciousness in which the
passage of time appears to be slowed. When Ian says "The effects... are
only on the MIND" he is quite correct in terms of the modern objective
paradigm, but he is ignoring the metaphysics of the game. According to
M:tA, reality is subjective. That means that if Time appears to move more
slowly it's because Time _is_ moving more slowly, not because the
character's perceptions are altered. Similarly, when Time seems to move
more quickly, it _is_ because Time is moving by faster, not because the
character only perceives it that way.
In the CoX worldview, when you're waiting for the results of a medical
test to see whether or not you have cancer, Time _does_ slow down and when
you spend a rare afternoon with your lover, Time _does_ race past. In
fact, both activities could be viewed as rituals or foci for achieving
these basic Time manipulation effects. They'd be coincidental, too.
The fact that the same effects could be achieved using Mind doesn't affect
the argument, since one of M:tA's conventions is that the same effect can
often be achieved in a variety of different ways using different Spheres.
Beyond which, I don't think the same effects could be achieved using just
Mind, I think it would have to be a conjunctional Mind/Time effect.
Since, in addition to drug use, the CoX indulges in a variety of practices
designed to bring on extreme physical states, the connection should,
again, be obvious.
>> though; and I've never seen an explanation linking chance and
>> destiny to death-cultism that entirely satisfied me. Perhaps
>> someone else has suggestions?
>
>This one actually works for me because it seems like the Trad was
>invented almost out of whole cloth for the Sphere to have a proponent.
>(OK, true, the VA's, Sons and CoX were pretty much invented too...)
>
>I like the whole idea of a Trad that learns of Fate and becomes the
>slave to what they see, forced to shoehorn along the destiny they
>foresee and kill off anyone who is gumming up the 'great wheel' and
>greasing the axles of human history with human blood. Like Cassandra,
>their precognition and hints of awareness regarding 'the cosmic Plan'
>makes them no friends and is as much a curse as a blessing.
Linking a death cult like the Euthanatos to Fate, Destiny and the like is
something that I have no difficulty with. Linking them to Entropy (Chance,
Randomness, the Arrow of Time) has, however, always struck me as odd. To
be fair, this is much more of an issue in first edition M:tA, since the
emphasis in Entropy was shifted more towards Fate and the like in 2nd ed.
Regards,
Zoran
--
Zoran Bekric
(zbe...@hempseed.com)
ars longa, vita brevis
blak...@technologist.com
In article <b49lnu4...@hemul.nada.kth.se>,
> > the Syndicate??? :)
>
>
> Was it John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith who said it? Maybe the dismal
> science really is an euthanatos offshoot? :-)
I think it was Keynes, or some Keynsian anyway. I remember it's in
answer to a Classisist statement to the effect that full employment
is inevitable 'in the long run' ...
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/ '-|---
DShomshak
>> I've heard that originally, each Tradition was to receive _two_
>> favored Spheres...
>
>This would be MUCH better IMO... At least with TWO Spheres, their is
>a chance one of them could be appropriate to their paradigm.
>
>I see the Trads as:
>
>Akashic Brotherhood - Life
>Celestial Chorus - Mind
>Cult of Ecstasy - Mind
>Dreamspeakers - Spirit
>Euthanatos - Entropy
>Order of Hermes - Prime/Correspondence?
>Sons of Ether - Forces
>Verbena - ? (the whole 'witch/druid' sctick covers a LOT of ground!)
>Virtual Adepts - ? (Mind/Prime/Correspondence?)
Assuming we're stuck with fitting in the Sphere of their seat on the Council,
my nominees for "Trad Sphere pairs" would be:
Akashics: Mind (the fundamental reality), Life (their bodies are their chief
tool for working magick)
Chorus: Prime (all is God/Prime), Mind (compelling/investigating belief)
CoX: Mind (magick is changing consciousness), Time (traditional interest in
prophecy)
Dreamsp.: Spirit (everything's controlled by spirits), Mind (RL shamans do a
lot of work treating 'soul loss' and other psychological conditions)
Euthies: Spirit (genuine necromancy, drawing on powers of Lower umbra),
Entropy (concern with fate, chance & liberation)
Hermetics: Forces (pneumatic paradigm), Spirit (how the pneumatic forces are
expressed -- and all that goetia stuff)
SoEs: Matter (everything is 'material' in the philosophical sense, if not
literally), Forces (favored effects, & working magick thru electricity, 'rays,'
etc.)
Verbena: Life (the 'anima mundi' hypothesis), Spirit (belief in living gods,
nature spirits)
Virtuals: Correspondence (space as just a special form of relational
indicator), Forces (electronics, remote control of technology, physical forces
as next level of reality up from pure information).
I'm not married to any of these choices, though. In particular, the
Dreamspeakers and Verbena leave a lot of room for alternatives: both "shamans"
and "witches" were/are sort of all-purpose magical practitioners.
>Zelazny had an AMAZING bit on the power of words and the Nameless
>in Lord of Light. I would strongly recommend it, I think you'd like it!
I've read it and yes, I do like it. Wasn't the Nameless from Creatures of
Light and Darkness, though? (I liked that one a lot too. Both were superb
evocations of "Clarke-level" technology -- so advanced it can only be described
in terms of godhood.)
Jonathan Rowe
In article <zbekric-2203...@ppp225.adelaide.on.net.au>, Zoran
Bekric <zbe...@hempseed.com> writes
These are wise words.
There is perhaps a third point.
Representative art is, in its origins, an act of magic/magick. Cave
paintings and buffalo dances placate the spirits and bring luck in the
hunt, early Greek theatre honours the gods and re-enact myths. Most of
this magick is focussed on bringing about some desired future event by
enacting it artistically (taking down that mammoth, butchering that
enemy tribe, lampooning that inhospitable chieftain) or communicating
knowledge from the past to the present (reciting genealogies and
praising ancestors, performing the Oresteia or Oedipus). Art has
traditionally been used to grant control over time, to contain the past
or the future in the present and shape or reshape them.
Zoran Bekric
Anders Sandberg <a...@hemul.nada.kth.se> wrote:
>Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> writes:
>
>> Death and Taxes, the last Mages standing will be the Euthanatos and
>> the Syndicate??? :)
>
>"In the long run, we are all dead."
>
>Was it John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith who said it? Maybe the dismal
>science really is an euthanatos offshoot? :-)
Actually, I think it was John Maynard Keynes.
In the 1930s many traditional economists were saying that, left alone,
normal market forces would correct for the Great Depression and return
Western Economies to prosperity 'In the long run...'
Keynes responded with the above. It was both a classic retort and a quite
valid observation.
Regards,
Zoran
--
Zoran Bekric
(zbe...@hempseed.com)
purple prose is the prose for me,
purple prose is the best you see;
red prose only makes you mad;
blue prose only makes you sad;
yellow prose is the worst of the lot,
written only to boil the pot;
yes, purple prose is the prose for me,
happy and glad and grand to see.
Eric the .5b
Zoran Bekric wrote:
> >> the Syndicate??? :)
> >
> >
> >Was it John Stuart Mill or Adam Smith who said it? Maybe the dismal
> >science really is an euthanatos offshoot? :-)
>
> Actually, I think it was John Maynard Keynes.
> In the 1930s many traditional economists were saying that, left alone,
> normal market forces would correct for the Great Depression and return
> Western Economies to prosperity 'In the long run...'
>
> Keynes responded with the above. It was both a classic retort and a quite
> valid observation.
A very true observation it was, but unfortunately irrelevant to
the dialogue Keynes was in. :)
Eric the .5b
JLHeinig
> A very true observation it was, but unfortunately irrelevant to
>the dialogue Keynes was in. :)
Keynes' observation that "In the long run, we are all dead" was relevant
inasmuch as it pointed up the need for immediate solutions to the Great
Depression, rather than a continual mumbled reassurance of eventual improvement
from the wealthy while the poor starved to death on the streets.
Cheers,
Jess Heinig
Kindred of the East developer
WWGS
Zoran Bekric
Eric the .5b <et...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Zoran Bekric wrote:
>
>> In the 1930s many traditional economists were saying that, left alone,
>> normal market forces would correct for the Great Depression and return
>> Western Economies to prosperity 'In the long run...'
>>
>>Keynes responded with the above. It was both a classic retort and a quite
>> valid observation.
> A very true observation it was, but unfortunately irrelevant to
>the dialogue Keynes was in. :)
Actually, Keynes' observation was relevent inasmuch...
Uh...
JLHeinig (jlhe...@aol.com) wrote:
> Keynes' observation that "In the long run, we are all dead" was relevant
>inasmuch as it pointed up the need for immediate solutions to the Great
>Depression, rather than a continual mumbled reassurance of eventual improvement
>from the wealthy while the poor starved to death on the streets.
Yeah! What she said!
Regards,
Zoran
--
Zoran Bekric
(zbe...@hempseed.com)
ars longa, vita brevis