Can a destroyed vampire become a wraith ?
jiteze
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------C3E13C56E8562EF23F0A3C14
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--------------C3E13C56E8562EF23F0A3C14
Content-Type: image/gif; name="grave5.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="grave5.gif"
<encoded_portion_removed>
AAA7
--------------C3E13C56E8562EF23F0A3C14--
Justin
jiteze wrote:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
Please do not post bianaries on this NG...
Edamoth
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:34:45 +0100, "Mor...@mharper36.demon.co.uk"
<Mor...@mharper36.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <33EDFF...@mail.stlnet.com>, Justin
><cro...@mail.stlnet.com> writes
>
>The Answer to: 'Can a destroyed vampire become a wraith ?'
>is yes.
>
>I have done it with one of my characters, you may be thinking this is no
>possable, but a just read it in Wraith the other day.
According to Buried Secrets, yes. Mind you, they are just new lemures
out of the caul, with no disciplines. And a lot of vamps leave a lot
of not-very-friendly dead who are more than happy to show the vamp
what've learned in their X years as a wraith while the vamp was still
alive. Not a fun position to be in, IMO.
RAKownacki
Oh, and keep in mind that the Avatar is a seprate force from one's sprit.
So a mage can come back, but no magick. Ya know, that'll work with
everyone, awakend or not. Perhaps some of the nature of risen stems from
the fact that the body is lacking the avatar. Hmm...
And i'm inclined to allow risen garou some of there powers back, since
there powers come from there sprirts, and the sprirt is back in the body.
But gifts, no.
'Lord' Paul Soth
http://www.geocities.com/area51/6126
Member of Dark Vale (http://www.geocities.com/area51/4065/index.html)
Kill your Tamagotchi
Eric Robert Sylwester
RAKownacki (rakow...@aol.com) wrote:
: Oh, and keep in mind that the Avatar is a seprate force from one's sprit.
: So a mage can come back, but no magick. Ya know, that'll work with
: everyone, awakend or not. Perhaps some of the nature of risen stems from
: the fact that the body is lacking the avatar. Hmm...
: And i'm inclined to allow risen garou some of there powers back, since
: there powers come from there sprirts, and the sprirt is back in the body.
: But gifts, no.
I dunno. Reanimating your rotting corpse to go out in the world and wreak
vengence seems like a pretty Wyrmy thing to do. I think in my games, Gaia
would stay silent for such a one.
Risen are allowed access to some vampiric disciplines. I can see the
garou targeting those ones that give them abilities similar to what they
had in life, but I'd still make'em pay for them.
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Edamoth
On Tue, 26 Aug 97 08:44:03 GMT, Terry Hill <micr...@clara.net>
wrote:
>on 25 Aug 97, Z wrote...
>
>> Changeling: Can almost never become Wraiths. The only time they
>>have a chance is when they are killed by Cold Iron.
>
>Can you say Banshee? Beansidhe!
>
Isn't 'banshee' used as a type of Doppleganger spectre already?
Shawn Andrew
Justin Phillips wrote:
>
> David Johnston wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that those vampires would almost immediately become
> > spectres, having piled up all that "angst" in life.
>
> I don't think so, I think a vampire would be somewhat happy as a wraith.
> Think about it, you have been dead for hundreds of years, so your probably used
> to not being with friends and family(Prime causes of angst). Now you are pretty
> much invincible to physical harm, so you can find the
> vampire/lycanthrope/mage/changeling, who offed you and make his/her/it's
> life/unlife living/unliving hel. And unless that person is a Giovanni/Silent
> Strider/Euthanatos/Slaugh, there's not a damn thing they can do about t!l
this is of course asuming the shadowlands are an easy and or niceplace
to spend one's afterlife
as if your only problems come from the skinlands
hardly!
over zealous legionares! insane heretics! those idiotic renegades!
spectres! what ever those nasty things that live in the tempest!
oh, and that little voice in the back of your head that constantly
berates you and tries to make you do HIDEOUS things
the shadow makes the beast look like a swell guy
and remember, a vampire that's been around for decades or even hundreds of years
will have more than likely created several wraiths distinctly pissed off at her
and they've been dead for sometime, learning arcanos, making friends,
or turning into spectres and serving oblivion
easy?
i doubt it!
--
Shawn Andrew---------...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu
NetWraithInnerCircle Member #242, Strange demigodlike servant of SPAM
and keeper of the almighty Wraith-L FAQ
(note, when replying to me via e-mail, please use the address above,
rather than f...@bar.com)
Justin Phillips
David Johnston wrote:
Mark Kinney
Justin Phillips (c71...@showme.missouri.edu) wrote:
: I don't think so, I think a vampire would be somewhat happy as a wraith.
: Think about it, you have been dead for hundreds of years, so your probably used
: to not being with friends and family(Prime causes of angst). Now you are pretty
: much invincible to physical harm, so you can find the
: vampire/lycanthrope/mage/changeling, who offed you and make his/her/it's
: life/unlife living/unliving hel. And unless that person is a Giovanni/Silent
: Strider/Euthanatos/Slaugh, there's not a damn thing they can do about t!l
I, in fact, have used this as a campaign hook before; the group was
responsible for an elder's death (after said elder caused all sorts of
problems for a particular Kindred they knew, to the point of mobilizing a
small war to track him down), and the elder came back to torment said
Kindred and the group, Wraith style. Then one of the elder's Tremere
minions found a way to bring her back in a Vampire body...
It was a fun campaign.
--
albe...@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations
"When Heaven's in the music, Hell is in control;
The angels got the voices, but the Devil's got the Rock and Roll..."
-- "Look What I Did To My Id", from "Shock Treatment" by Richard O'Brien
Manus Nigrum
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in article
<3405F7...@telusplanet.net>...
> Terry Hill wrote:
>
> > >> According to Buried Secrets, yes. Mind you, they are just new
lemures
> > >> out of the caul, with no disciplines. And a lot of vamps leave a
lot
> > >> of not-very-friendly dead who are more than happy to show the vamp
> > >> what've learned in their X years as a wraith while the vamp was
still
> > >> alive. Not a fun position to be in, IMO.
> > >
> > >
> > >It seems to me that those vampires would almost immediately become
> > >spectres, having piled up all that "angst" in life.
> >
> > Actually, unless you're playing Vampire "First Edition Style", I think
Vampires
> > would be Angst-causers rather than Angst-magnets.
>
> Why? Do nasty things and you pick up Angst, right?
>
>
>
I think we can all agree that the Vampire-turned-Wraith would have a Shadow
with "The Beast" as an achetype. Imagine the relief a vampire would feel
as his darker side is separated from his ID. However, the Shadow would be
a thousand times more sadistic and vile than most since it had all that
time to soak up the vampire-ness of it's former life. Bear that in mind
when the Shadow takes dominance.
Eric Robert Sylwester
Shawn Andrew (f...@bar.com) wrote:
: and remember, a vampire that's been around for decades or even hundreds of years
: will have more than likely created several wraiths distinctly pissed off at her
: and they've been dead for sometime, learning arcanos, making friends,
: or turning into spectres and serving oblivion
Heh. that's about the size of it. Joe Tremere dies, becomes a wraith,
and is met on the other side by the Killed-By-Joe-Tremere-Fan-Club, whose
greatest arguments are wheather to have him soulforged into Oboli or a
Candelabra for their weekly meetings.
Then again, possibly a *worse* fate for an elder vampire would be to die,
become a wraith, and realize that your life was so insignificant that
nobody in the shadowlands knows you, or cares.
(Incidentally, the "Haunted" flaw is a good one for bloodthirsty leeches.
Not only is it appropriate, it can be a wonderful plot device for the ST.)
marc17
Thought: a vampire can become a wraith. It becomes a normal wraith with
no advantages or disadvantages to doing so except for possibly who is
waiting to meet them on the other side. Could be a pack of pissed off
people who have died at the hand of the vampire(assumeing they have
nothing better to do in the after life).
But suppose: the vampire is Giovanni. he has throughout his unlife used
his powers to comunivcate with the shadowlands, contact people, nake
deals, deatroy their enemies, help them in regards to their fetters,
etc. He dies to have this group of formor 'buisness' associates waiting
for him. They could easily remove his caul, teach him Arcanos, introduce
him into wraith society, etc. He would also have family members on the
other side capable of contacting him and helping him; as well as using
him to spy on enemies and use the arcanos and contacts he has on the
other side to further the Giovanni cause. Who is behind the mask in
Venice? Is it any wonder that it was a common Venitian custom to were
masks just as it is in wraith society?
Death does not permit one to forget obligations to the family Giovanni.
And I doubt if Oblivion would either.
--17---
Richard Dansky
> Assuming they bothered. "That type" of vampires is the type
> which left a trail of bodies behind it (since reference was
> made to a horde of angry ghosts waiting to take revenge on
> the other side in the part which was edited out). If you
> left that many murder victims, how hard were you really trying
> to fight the Beast?
It's the accidental murders that really nail you - especially through
your Shadow.
Anyway, the official word is this: Vampires who are not diablerized
and who have not achieved Golconda can in fact become wraiths - though
they start with the powers of an Enfant. It doesn't matter if you were
the founder of Clan Elfpants; when you cross the Shroud it's a whole
new ballgame (Best analogy: Michael Jordan, world's best basketball
player, has to start in the minor leagues when he switches sports
paradigms.)
For more info on what can and can't become a wraith, see the Wraith
FAQ on the WW home page, or check out Buried Secrets.
deadguy
--
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=00-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
Richard E. Dansky, aka The Deadguy: Developer, Wraith: The Oblivion &
Mind's Eye Theatre, White Wolf Gaming Studios
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
"I hate the living." - Dr. Laurel Wagner, Men In Black
Nyarlathotep
> Anyway, the official word is this: Vampires who are not diablerized
> and who have not achieved Golconda can in fact become wraiths - though
> they start with the powers of an Enfant. It doesn't matter if you were
> the founder of Clan Elfpants; when you cross the Shroud it's a whole
> new ballgame (Best analogy: Michael Jordan, world's best basketball
> player, has to start in the minor leagues when he switches sports
> paradigms.)
Now for an interesting twist, What happens if Joe Bloodshot, our Wraith
Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
use them)?
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
"The little engine that could, did."--Rob Manning, Mars Pathfinder flight director, 7/4/97.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
Patrick Baldwin
Richard Dansky wrote:
>> Now for an interesting twist, What happens if Joe Bloodshot, our Wraith
>> Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
>> where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
>> twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
>> use them)?
>
>untimely demise, the whole question is kinda moot :-)
>
>deadguy
<Ignorable ramblings related to my game>
In a world with mages, almost nothing is ever moot:)
This very question has been plaguing me, as I have a former-Vampire-now
Wraith in my group. They don't know it, but there is a very powerfull
necromancer (as in a Mage who deals with the dead a lot, not a
hedge wizard or Giovanni trype) who is looking to sink his hooks into
the group, as they would be usefull pawns. So he is working with an
ally of his (also a Mage) to re-build the Vampires body, as he thinks
the offer of a return the material world as a Risen is somehting this
Vampire would go for in a big way.
<End game related ramblings, enter Question)
So, assuming there is a body (whether it be because the Vampire is
a month old or because a Mage used Corr. and Matter to put the body
back together, does the vampire regain Disciplines?
Also- What about Garou Risen?
-P. Baldwin
David Johnston
Nyarlathotep wrote:
>
> In article <3415B2...@white-wolf.com>, dea...@white-wolf.com wrote:
>
> > Anyway, the official word is this: Vampires who are not diablerized
> > and who have not achieved Golconda can in fact become wraiths - though
> > they start with the powers of an Enfant. It doesn't matter if you were
> > the founder of Clan Elfpants; when you cross the Shroud it's a whole
> > new ballgame (Best analogy: Michael Jordan, world's best basketball
> > player, has to start in the minor leagues when he switches sports
> > paradigms.)
>
> Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
> where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
> twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
> use them)?
And the answer is: No.
Richard Dansky
> Now for an interesting twist, What happens if Joe Bloodshot, our Wraith
> Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
> where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
> twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
> use them)?
Well, seeing as odds are that Joe's body has crumbled to ash after his
untimely demise, the whole question is kinda moot :-)
deadguy
--
Jim Flory-Storyteller
>Anyway, the official word is this: Vampires who are not diablerized
>and who have not achieved Golconda can in fact become wraiths - though
>they start with the powers of an Enfant. It doesn't matter if you were
>the founder of Clan Elfpants; when you cross the Shroud it's a whole
>new ballgame
**to add a bit more detail...Clanbook Giovanni states that a Vamp who
becomes a Wraith starts with the same Attributes and Abilities but no
Arcanoi.
Jim
Clayton A. Oliver
pbal...@mrst.com (Patrick Baldwin) wrote:
>Also- What about Garou Risen?
Garou don't become Wraiths unless they were Wyrm-tainted to begin
with. I'd be amazed if a BSD _didn't_ come back as a Spectre. A
member of one of the other tribes most likely wouldn't have a body to
come back to, as his sept would incinerate him to purify the corpse.
- Clayton
Eric Robert Sylwester
David Johnston (rgo...@telusplanet.net) wrote:
: > Maybe, maybe not. PC's are always the exception to the rule to begin
: > with, and even when talking about npc's, a critter that has spent the last
: > couple a'hundred years fighting the Beast within themselves can probably
: > do a pretty good job with their Shadow.
: Assuming they bothered. "That type" of vampires is the type
: which left a trail of bodies behind it (since reference was
: made to a horde of angry ghosts waiting to take revenge on
: the other side in the part which was edited out). If you
: left that many murder victims, how hard were you really trying
: to fight the Beast?
Well, again, if we are addressing a PC, the ST can always make exceptions
to the game; if you went around murdering schmucks, they (a) probably
didn't become wraiths and (b) the ones who did then promptly got enslaved.
So, the horde may be there and it may not be, depending on the ST.
As to whether the vamp becomes a spectre or not, that depends on the
character- was it a long, slow slide down the hill, resisting frenzy yet
failing over time, or was it a "revel in your beast" charge down that
same hill? The correlation between "evilness" and "number of bodies"
isn't exact, IMHO; isn't that is where the self-reflection and angst comes
from in VtM?
Eric Robert Sylwester
3...@white-wolf.com>
<Nyarlathotep.the.unspa...@slip-112-11.ots.utexas.edu>:
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution:
Nyarlathotep (Nyarlathotep.t...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: Now for an interesting twist, What happens if Joe Bloodshot, our Wraith
: Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
: where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
: twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
: use them)?
I would guess not. Though Joe Bloodshot-the-character has an *excellent*
background reason for picking them up without any other story
requirements.
My IC reason would be that there's dead, and then there's DEAD. The
Disciplines he held in unlife dissipated from his body/being at the same
time as his need for blood and need to avoid sunlight. He may be
inhabiting the same corpse, but none of the "vampire essense" remains
within it. Ironically, Joe Bloodshot as a Risen can walk out and enjoy the
sunlight; unfortunately, his Potence 5 is missing for the same reason.
He starts out with nothing other than the corpse to work with (and
Wraithly abiliities).
Incidentally, a Risen would make a good Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde character (if
he can hyde the decomposition :).
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Nyarlathotep.t...@mail.utexas.edu (Nyarlathotep) wrote:
> Now for an interesting twist, What happens if Joe Bloodshot, our Wraith
>Vampire, becomes a Risen to get back at those Sabbat Bastards who put him
>where he is now. Assuming he returns a normal Risen (not some Vamp-Risen
>twink Abom.), does he retain his former disciplines (he did know how to
>use them)?
Joe finds out that, in order to be a Risen, he needs his
corpse mostly intact. The average time for learning
the appropriate Arcanoi, convincing the Shadow, and
covering this all up so the Hierarchy doesn't find out,
is around a year to a year and a half. How quickly does
a vampire corpse decompose?
Kestrel
"But you know evil is an exact science,
Being carefully, correctly wrong."
-Shriekback, "Nemesis"
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> What about Garou Risen?
Well, now, that all depends on what links you forge between Werewolf-
style Malfeans and Wraith-style Malfeans, now, doesn't it? ;)
-- S. Skoog
Patrick Baldwin
David Johnston wrote:
>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>
>> <End game related ramblings, enter Question)
>> So, assuming there is a body (whether it be because the Vampire is
>> a month old or because a Mage used Corr. and Matter to put the body
>> back together, does the vampire regain Disciplines?
>
>seem to be the required spheres. Of course the answer to your
>question is, "Only if you want him to".
>
>>
Why in the world would you need Spirit and Life to put a corpse
back together? Note, the mage is NOT creating the Risien, he is
simply rebuilding it's body.
-P. Baldwin
David Johnston
Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> <End game related ramblings, enter Question)
> So, assuming there is a body (whether it be because the Vampire is
> a month old or because a Mage used Corr. and Matter to put the body
> back together, does the vampire regain Disciplines?
The Mage better be using more than that. Spirit, Life and Matter
seem to be the required spheres. Of course the answer to your
question is, "Only if you want him to".
>
> Also- What about Garou Risen?
Although Garou do have ghosts, I'm not certain that they are
in the same Umbra as the wraiths.
>
> -P. Baldwin
>
Nyarlathotep
In article <5v95oi$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>, hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu
(Eric Robert Sylwester) wrote:
> I would guess not. Though Joe Bloodshot-the-character has an *excellent*
> background reason for picking them up without any other story
> requirements.
Though I am using him as an example, it is a wonderful idea for a character.
> My IC reason would be that there's dead, and then there's DEAD. The
> Disciplines he held in unlife dissipated from his body/being at the same
> time as his need for blood and need to avoid sunlight. He may be
> inhabiting the same corpse, but none of the "vampire essense" remains
> within it. Ironically, Joe Bloodshot as a Risen can walk out and enjoy the
> sunlight; unfortunately, his Potence 5 is missing for the same reason.
> He starts out with nothing other than the corpse to work with (and
> Wraithly abiliities).
The thing that actually conflicts with this is the Mummy rules. Joe
knows how to use his powers. It's like a Wraith using Puppetry: He doesn't
have to relearn the physical pathways (how to make a physical body move)
to control a body everytime he jumps someone. Sure he's dead and doesn't
have a body anymore, but he remembers how it works. Same with old Joe
here. And considering that his klaive-slashed corpse had Celerity 3,
Potence 3, and Presence 2 (so he's Brujah) when he died, the body should
still retain the physical capability to perform these powers even if the
"fuel" is gone.
Risen don't have to re-learn how to talk or walk just because their
body's been in the ground for a year or two. Nor do they seem to suffer
any muscular atrophy during the years of inactivity. Why should Vampiric
Disciplines be any different from these other examples (especially since
Risen have access to them). What the mind remembers the body will perform.
Think about the fact that a Risen can learn brain surgery in Stygia and
then return with his new found skills fully intact (despite the fact that
his body/brain has never practiced any of this).
I might be moved to require an Intelligence roll (à la Mummy 1st
edition) to see if any Risen remembers his abilities upon return. These
are not lost, just inaccessible to the Risen due to atrophy and what not.
Sure the body reconstitutes itself, but it has been lying in the ground,
doing nothing for a while. Some fine motor control is bound to be lost and
the old noggin probably isn't going function as well as it used to.
Rod K.
Nyarlathotep
In article <3416F2...@white-wolf.com>, dea...@white-wolf.com wrote:
> Well, seeing as odds are that Joe's body has crumbled to ash after his
> untimely demise, the whole question is kinda moot :-)
Though that is more than likely, let continue to play Devil's Advoctate
and force you to answer the question. What if Joe were decapitated (a
little flaw from The Risen) or killed by a Garou, Gangrel, or someone with
a Klaive (or capability to inflict Aggravated Damage without annihilating
the body) and the body wasn't left out to greet the dawn but buried by
"concerned" comrades?
Considering that Risen have access to Celerity, Fortitude, Obfuscate
and Potence as disciplines, this question is poignant (and let us not
forget Ghouls who die become Wraiths => Risen to protect their "beloved"
former masters). Would such a person regain their former Disciplines upon
becoming a Risen?
Z
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) spake unto us:
>Incidentally, a Risen would make a good Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde character (if
>he can hyde the decomposition :).
Simple enough, since there is no decomposition, unless one takes a
flaw (and the only one like that given is scent of decay).
Risen aren't Zombies or shambling corpses. They are Revenents (in the
classic sense). They don't decay and don't start off in or progress
to any stages of decay.
Z
--------------------------------------------
Save Roleplaying Games!
Kill a _Magic: the Gathering_ player today!
-seen on a bumper sticker
---------------------------------------------
Justin Phillips
Clayton A. Oliver wrote:
> pbal...@mrst.com (Patrick Baldwin) wrote:
>
> >Also- What about Garou Risen?
>
> Garou don't become Wraiths unless they were Wyrm-tainted to begin
> with. I'd be amazed if a BSD _didn't_ come back as a Spectre. A
> member of one of the other tribes most likely wouldn't have a body to
> come back to, as his sept would incinerate him to purify the corpse.
>
> - Clayton
No, BSD don't come back as Wraiths unless tehya re Gaia tainted. This
is how it works. All Garou who serve Gaia(or the Wyrm) faithfully, die
and go to the tribes Ancestoral Homeland in the Umbra to become Ancestor
Spirits. The only Garou who become wraiths are Ronin or Wyrm Tainetd Gaia
garou(Or Gaia tainted Wyrm Garou). So if a BSD serves the Wyrm his whole
life and dies, he become a BSD Ancestor Spirit
Eric Robert Sylwester
Nyarlathotep (Nyarlathotep.t...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: > My IC reason would be that there's dead, and then there's DEAD. The
: > Disciplines he held in unlife dissipated from his body/being at the same
: > time as his need for blood and need to avoid sunlight. He may be
: > inhabiting the same corpse, but none of the "vampire essense" remains
: > within it. Ironically, Joe Bloodshot as a Risen can walk out and enjoy the
: > sunlight; unfortunately, his Potence 5 is missing for the same reason.
: > He starts out with nothing other than the corpse to work with (and
: > Wraithly abiliities).
: The thing that actually conflicts with this is the Mummy rules. Joe
: knows how to use his powers. It's like a Wraith using Puppetry: He doesn't
: have to relearn the physical pathways (how to make a physical body move)
: to control a body everytime he jumps someone. Sure he's dead and doesn't
: have a body anymore, but he remembers how it works. Same with old Joe
: here. And considering that his klaive-slashed corpse had Celerity 3,
: Potence 3, and Presence 2 (so he's Brujah) when he died, the body should
: still retain the physical capability to perform these powers even if the
: "fuel" is gone.
This depends. I can see lots of background reasons why this wouldn't be
the case. You may not agree with any of them, but I'll give you the ones
off the top of my head. But first the general suggestion: Joe Bloodshot
does or does not retain his disciplines depending on whether YOU the ST
think he should.
Anyway, here are some reasons:
1. Vampirism is the Curse from Caine. As are the supernatural powers
that go with it. Joe is no longer a vampire- neither God nor Caine would
recognize him as such. He is a reanimating spirit. Ergo, the Curse is
gone. (you probably also have to assume 2, below).
2. The Risen's Potence, etc... ARE NOT the same thing as the vampire
abilities of the same name. They just act the same way in the game
(because, let's face it, Frightening Stories Of The Undead share a lot of
the same characteristics- most of which have to do with how hard they
are to put down). Therefore, they have to learn these new abilities from
scratch.
3. Making the muscles move and invoking a supernatural power ain't the
same. Making the muscles move is something Joe hasn't forgotten from
being *human*. What's more, it's a function of his biological makeup.
It's like a mage switching Avatars and trying to do magick- the "effort of
will" may be the same, but the result is nada.
4. "Reanimation Is Hard Work" It ain't easy movin' that corpse around.
As the character gets more experienced at it, his control improves, with
the "higher" vampire abilities coming last. Even great athletes don't
keep their reflexes or muscles when they stop using them- maybe the
vampire functions have atrophied requires Experience (figuratively and
literally) to get them in shape.
5. That Damn Shadow. Remember, the wraith only becomes a Risen if he can
get the Shadow to agree to it. So the ex-vamp reanimates, says "hey,
where's my Potence?" and hears an evil laugh sounding from yon shadow...
Or, if the player is really cagey, make it part of the deal. After
all, what self-respecting shadow would *hand* the psyche such powerful
tools to help him complete his mission? "No way, buddy. If
you want to Go Back so much, you're going to have to let ME keep control
of those nifty supernatural abilities"
This, of course, is an excellent justification for why the shadow has
certain thorns. The Beast powers are under control of the Beastial part
of the wraith.
Those are some ideas. But as I said, when push comes to shove, you as a
ST really are just going to have to decide which you prefer, and THEN make
up the justification as to "why this is so."
Z
kes...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon) spake unto us:
>Joe finds out that, in order to be a Risen, he needs his
>corpse mostly intact. The average time for learning
>the appropriate Arcanoi, convincing the Shadow, and
>covering this all up so the Hierarchy doesn't find out,
>is around a year to a year and a half. How quickly does
>a vampire corpse decompose?
Usually, a good rule of thumb, is about 5 to 10 seconds. Unless its a
real young Vampire, then it *may* last until the Sun hits it, or a
couple of weeks, whichever is shorter.
Vampire corpses tend not to keep very well.