Spirit Thaumaturgy vagueness
Gavin Carruthers
Spirits, as per Werewolf? Wraiths? Drones? Happy little elves? What?
Is there a more detailed write up in Guide to the Cammie?
How would I go about getting stats?
--Gavin
elijah
path is introduce: spirit manipulation. This path allows the tremere to act
as a theurge. They can now see, speak with, command the spirits the garou are
so fond of. They can make fetishes too, like the garou. So tremere goes gaia.
Or if you take the Path of Technomancy, tremere goes weaver.
elijah
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BArmor9292
>Spirits, as per Werewolf? Wraiths? Drones? Happy little elves? What?
> Is there a more detailed write up in Guide to the Cammie?
>
>
Spirits, like the ones werewolves and some magi talk to.
Wraiths are strictly the domain of Necromancy.
And yes, the Path of Spirit Manipulation is in the new Cammarilla Guide.
"I waste him with my crossbow!"
kis...@mindspring.com
Gavin Carruthers wrote in message <3712D9...@ns.sympatico.ca>...
>So, wwhat does Spirit Thaum affect as per the new book?
>Spirits, as per Werewolf? Wraiths? Drones? Happy little elves? What?
> Is there a more detailed write up in Guide to the Cammie?
>
>
It's in the Guide to the Camarilla; it affects spirits, as per Werewolf.
Kish
Justin R. Achilli
<xei...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure if any spirit thaumaturgy is described in VRev.
It's not. Spirit Thaumaturgy has been brought up to revised edition standard
in the Guide to the Camarilla as the Path of Spirit Manipulation. Good word
choice in the path name -- you're not pals with spirits, you're bending them
to suit your commands.
> In the GttC a new
> path is introduce: spirit manipulation. This path allows the tremere to act
> as a theurge.
No, it doesn't. That's an oversimplification.
> They can now see, speak with, command the spirits the garou are
> so fond of.
Sorta -- see below.
> They can make fetishes too, like the garou.
Except that in the case of werewolves, the spirits generally acquiesce to
fetish-binding. When a vampire makes a fetish, he literally crams an
unwilling spirit into the object.
> So tremere goes gaia.
No. Vampire has nothing to do with Gaia. In Vampire, they're just spirits.
If you're looking at it from a crossover WoD standpoint, they're going to be
banes and other nasty spirits, as "good" spirits don't traffic with
vampires.
[Insert month-long "Vampires are Wyrm-tainted!" -- "No, they're not, damn
you!" thread here]
> Or if you take the Path of Technomancy, tremere goes weaver.
No, for the same reasons above.
Regards,
Justin
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Vampire: The Masquerade Developer]
[White Wolf Game Studio]
[jach...@white-wolf.com - www.white-wolf.com]
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Franco Frare
Justin R. Achilli wrote:
> In article <7euroe$cg3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , elijah
> <xei...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> No. Vampire has nothing to do with Gaia. In Vampire, they're just spirits.
> If you're looking at it from a crossover WoD standpoint, they're going to be
> banes and other nasty spirits, as "good" spirits don't traffic with
> vampires.
>
> [Insert month-long "Vampires are Wyrm-tainted!" -- "No, they're not, damn
> you!" thread here]
Excuse me Justin, but since the whole thing is about bossing spirits and
cramming them into fethishes by brute force, what's the difference between doing
it to a Gaian spirit or to a bane ? It's not as the spirits are going into them
willing. Brute force acts equally well with a Griffin spirit or a badass bane.
What if my Tremere has a 7+ Chivalry Path rating *rules-lawyer grinning*? He has
no Wyrm-taint...
I agree that a honorable Tremere should loathe the prospective of indefinite
servitude, however, and so either release the spirit after some time or face a
degeneration check (unless the spirit freely reaffirms its willingness to
serve)
>
>
> > Or if you take the Path of Technomancy, tremere goes weaver.
I thought Weaver spirits weren't so touchy about Wyrm-taint as Gaian or Wyld
ones
Franco
Brandon Quina
> If you're looking at it from a crossover WoD standpoint, they're going to be
> banes and other nasty spirits, as "good" spirits don't traffic with
> vampires.
According to what you just said, the spirits aren't trafficking with
the vampire; there being commanded/manipulated/bullied by the vampire.
Thus, why do these spirits have to be banes? I can *see* a bane
cooperating with a vampire, it's the good gaian spirits that you're
going to have to bully around to get them to do anything. I do agree
with you, though; Vampires have nothing to do with gaia, and giving them
a spirit related thauamturgy path doesn't make them any more gaian than
a century-old hermetic mage who traffics with spirits is gaian. There's
a difference between "do this, or i'll rip you into spirit stuff" and
"hey, spirit buddy, do me a favor? please?!"
> [Insert month-long "Vampires are Wyrm-tainted!" -- "No, they're not, damn
> you!" thread here]
Hmm. I didn't *quite* start that kind of thread, I hope.
Brandon,
Justin R. Achilli
wrote:
>> No. Vampire has nothing to do with Gaia. In Vampire, they're just spirits.
>> If you're looking at it from a crossover WoD standpoint, they're going to be
>> banes and other nasty spirits, as "good" spirits don't traffic with
>> vampires.
>
> According to what you just said, the spirits aren't trafficking with
> the vampire; there being commanded/manipulated/bullied by the vampire.
Right.
> Thus, why do these spirits have to be banes?
They are only in the WoD-crossover sense, and because those are the kind of
spirits generally in the vicinity of vampires.
This is all through Ethan, of course. I'm just a dumbass vampire, and a
spirit's a spirit to me, unless it's a ghost.
> I can *see* a bane
> cooperating with a vampire, it's the good gaian spirits that you're
> going to have to bully around to get them to do anything.
I won't touch that one; it's crossover. Eew. I only reiterated what I'd been
told.
> I do agree
> with you, though; Vampires have nothing to do with gaia, and giving them
> a spirit related thauamturgy path doesn't make them any more gaian than
> a century-old hermetic mage who traffics with spirits is gaian.
Right. I spend money; that doesn't make me an economist or a CFO ;)
> There's
> a difference between "do this, or i'll rip you into spirit stuff" and
> "hey, spirit buddy, do me a favor? please?!"
>
>> [Insert month-long "Vampires are Wyrm-tainted!" -- "No, they're not, damn
>> you!" thread here]
>
> Hmm. I didn't *quite* start that kind of thread, I hope.
And here is where I bow out.
J
Kintaro Oe
>path is introduce: spirit manipulation. This path allows the tremere to act
>so fond of. They can make fetishes too, like the garou. So tremere goes gaia.
>Or if you take the Path of Technomancy, tremere goes weaver.
the Spirit Manipulation and Spirit Thaumaturgy are both remarkaly
similar, and I believe that it mentioned that the first evolved from
the latter.
kabael kab...@bu.edu ICQ #24193592
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Kintaro Oe
>cramming them into fethishes by brute force, what's the difference between doing
>it to a Gaian spirit or to a bane ? It's not as the spirits are going into them
>willing. Brute force acts equally well with a Griffin spirit or a badass bane.
nothing really, it's just that those spirits most likely to be
-around- the Tremere, and so those most likely to be bound, are banes
and such.
>What if my Tremere has a 7+ Chivalry Path rating *rules-lawyer grinning*? He has
>no Wyrm-taint...
he -shows- no Wyrm Taint :)
anyway, I don't think that Path rating really affects the issue much.
Spirits generally don't like vampires. They don't have the pacts built
over the centuries or the sembelence of trust that the Garou have.
>
>I agree that a honorable Tremere should loathe the prospective of indefinite
>servitude, however, and so either release the spirit after some time or face a
>degeneration check (unless the spirit freely reaffirms its willingness to
>serve)
that's true, unless that honorable Tremere didn't see spirits as truly
sentient (as many of them aren't). Would every honorable man release a
horse from its harness to run free after a period of time?
>I thought Weaver spirits weren't so touchy about Wyrm-taint as Gaian or Wyld
>ones
actually, they do, it's just that they are often fooled.