[Vampire] Diablerie & Disciplines
Alberto Angaran
In my chronicles a 8° Generation Ventrue ( the PG ) commit diablerie on
a 9° Generation Tremer ( the NPG ). Now the Ventrue want the possibility to
take Thaumaturgy, but I consider it a particular Discipline who must be
studied with the teaching of someone not "simply" take from the Blood.
What's your opinion on this ???? Answer me plz !
Bye
Angryone
P.S. scuse me for my poor english :-)
The Dracon
First of all you do not control what you get in diablerie (asuming you're using
the famous 'get permanent new Disciplines' rule). But I think I'd rule that
Blood Magic can be recieved through diablerie.
But in this case the victim is of higher generation, so don't get your hopes up
about getting any Disciplines...
The Dracon of Revised Clanbook Tzimisce, and loving it!
The Exalted Lexicon collection:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/the_dracon/exalted_lexicon.rtf
(-=\V/=-)
Xolotl
commited diablerie, he can learn it from someone who already has it at the
same cost as any other non-clan discipline. I'd also allow him to increase
it by himself (without a mentor to teach him), BUT at twice the "normal"
cost of a non-clan discipline. Just my humble opinion of course.
Xolotl
Ralf Koeper
> What's your opinion on this ???? Answer me plz !
Your player commits diablerie on a vampire of lower generation, so he
gets nothing. Even if he'd diablerize a vampire of higher generation,
I agree with you. Thaumaturgy is something you have to study for years,
not something that's in the blood.
Ralf
Robert Kirkpatrick
> In my chronicles a 8° Generation Ventrue ( the PG ) commit diablerie
on
> a 9° Generation Tremer ( the NPG ). Now the Ventrue want the possibility
to
> take Thaumaturgy, but I consider it a particular Discipline who must be
> studied with the teaching of someone not "simply" take from the Blood.
>
> What's your opinion on this ???? Answer me plz !
First off, I would say as ST that your opinion goes. It's your Chronicle ~
how exactly do you want diablerie to work? That should be enough.
But if you want my opinion on how I run it ~ Thaumaturgy is not some simple
discipline you can just whip up naturally, like Potence or Fortitude. I
would rule that the player has the *potential* to learn Thaumaturgy (and
thus spend points on it), but he's going to have to get someone to teach
him. And that's gonna be wwwwaaaaayyyyyy hard ~ especially if in your
Chronicle, only the Tremere have it, and he just ate one of them. To me,
Thaumaturgy is not like most of the other "common" disciplines.
And even if he does find a teacher, good luck with him trying to use it. I
don't think the Tremere really likes it when a non-Clan member uses their
pet disciplines. I think they have Tremere hit squads for that.
Robert Kirkpatrick
Heavenly Creatures
www.ampcast.com/HeavenlyCreatures
www.mp3.com/HeavenlyCreatures
Mike Tilly
news:%9iZ6.21638$8R5.5...@news.infostrada.it...
>
> In my chronicles a 8° Generation Ventrue ( the PG ) commit diablerie
on
> a 9° Generation Tremer ( the NPG ). Now the Ventrue want the possibility
to
> take Thaumaturgy, but I consider it a particular Discipline who must be
> studied with the teaching of someone not "simply" take from the Blood.
>
> What's your opinion on this ???? Answer me plz !
I don't remember the new rules for diablerie, but I'd say you should go with
what works best story-wise. Diablerie is a bad thing, yes, but if you throw
in free disciplines and other goodies maybe you'll make the character want
more. A diablerie junkie could add a lot to certain games. So could a bunch
of Tremere who want to take back the forbidden thaumaturgical knowledge the
character happened to get through diablerie.
Maybe a 9th generation Tremere isn't likely to have forbidden knowledge, but
you get my point.
--
-------------------------------
Mike Tilly - Helsingborg/Sweden
- ti...@algonet.se
- http://www.algonet.se/~tilly
-------------------------------
Tiama'at
told as follows:
>"Alberto Angaran" <angr...@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:%9iZ6.21638$8R5.5...@news.infostrada.it...
>>
>> In my chronicles a 8° Generation Ventrue ( the PG ) commit
>> diablerie
>on
>> a 9° Generation Tremer ( the NPG ). Now the Ventrue want the
>> possibility
>to
>> take Thaumaturgy, but I consider it a particular Discipline who must
>> be studied with the teaching of someone not "simply" take from the
>> Blood.
>>
>> What's your opinion on this ???? Answer me plz !
>
>I don't remember the new rules for diablerie, but I'd say you should go
>with what works best story-wise.
Agreed - there is some optional rules (or not so optional now in the
current system?) that allow for 'bits' of the original personality (ala
Mithras/Monty Coven, or the nigh-tediously known Saulot/Tremere) to remain,
and even overpower the diablerist (going through a bit of a plot line about
this right now - an influential Giovanni NPC has developed a bit of a
'drinking' problem). IF you go with this, and there is "enough" (ST
discretion) bits of the Tremere left then I'd say sure - let him develop
Thaumaturgy - no research needed (at least to the level that the Tremere
originally possessed it) - but isn't it fun that while he sleeps, or fugues
(my favourite derangement btw, a common one to develop after diablerie) Mr
Tremere is off doing his own thing. I did this to a Tremere who had been
corrupted by a Baali (no diablerie), and found herself slowly developing
this new path of magic (Daimoinon), all the while strange things were
happening around her (as the Baali corruption grew and took control at odd
moments). Great fun!
Diablerie is a great story hook, the tricky part is how to run it with just
enough carrot (poisoned though it may be) that the player sees it as a good
thing... and enough of a slowly developing stick that the player has no
idea how much hell they're getting into.
Think of it as the vampire version of the Blood Treachery ghouled mage
rules. Quick fix, nasty side-effects,
Have fun, and keep us up to date with what you do :)
--
Matthew H. (Tiama'at) ~ THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Matthe...@icqmail.com ~
ICQ 12954569 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He-Zin Kwon
mentor who can teach you the needed level! Look the rules!
If some player of my group diablerizes, I make the rule, that the
disciplines they get are temporarily only. If they take the time to learn
them properly, its cheaper, because they have a natural knack for it (as
long as they have it temporarily). Of course they have other problems too.
-- He-Zin "Yasseira" Kwon
Zwei Seelen wohnen, ach! in meiner Brust...
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, "Faust - Der Tragoedie erster Teil"
"Xolotl" <maths...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9h4e49$9gb$1...@wanadoo.fr...
Thomas Weinbrenner
> Nonono, Thaumaturgy is a discipline which can only be learned if you
> have a mentor who can teach you the needed level! Look the rules!
And how did the first Tremere learn Thaumaturgy? :-)
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
He-Zin Kwon
> > Nonono, Thaumaturgy is a discipline which can only be learned if you
> > have a mentor who can teach you the needed level! Look the rules!
>
> And how did the first Tremere learn Thaumaturgy? :-)
Hm... he developed it? ^_^
> Thomas Weinbrenner
He-Zin "Yasseira" Kwon
Tiama'at
told as follows:
>Nonono, Thaumaturgy is a discipline which can only be learned if you
>have a mentor who can teach you the needed level! Look the rules!
The rules take no precedence over individual stories (and those STs).
Plus, there is precedent for people developing even the memories of their
victims - such as the lessons learned from Thaumaturgical tutoring, and so
develop the power (I'd make them buy their way up to what their victim
knew). Plus, if there is enough of your victim left to give you access to
their secret powers then there is enough of them left to make (un)life...
interesting. :)
Thomas Weinbrenner
> > > Nonono, Thaumaturgy is a discipline which can only be learned if you
> > > have a mentor who can teach you the needed level! Look the rules!
> >
> > And how did the first Tremere learn Thaumaturgy? :-)
>
> Hm... he developed it? ^_^
All right, you can't *learn* Thaumaturgy without a mentor. But you can
*develop* something which is exactly like Thaumaturgy. :-)
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
Mike Tilly
news:90CA70A8...@24.2.9.61...
> Diablerie is a great story hook, the tricky part is how to run it with
just
> enough carrot (poisoned though it may be) that the player sees it as a
good
> thing... and enough of a slowly developing stick that the player has no
> idea how much hell they're getting into.
Exactly. Like most other aspects of vampiric existance, diablerie can be
used for great stories. Same goes for the special traits of all other splats
too. Many can't see beyond the rules though, and let good stories go to
waste just because of something in the rulebook.
> Have fun, and keep us up to date with what you do :)
"Have fun" is the most important rule IMHO. People should remember that when
asking about what's possible and impossible, and certainly when answering
such questions. A newbie roleplayer will be unessecarily limited if people
obsessed with rules tell him what works and what doesn't.
He-Zin Kwon
> *develop* something which is exactly like Thaumaturgy. :-)
At least you can try... ^_^
The Dracon
And how do you think new paths are made? Have you seen the character in the
Revised Tremere clanbook that made the Technomancy path?
The Dracon
> "Tiama'at" <matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
> news:90CA70A8...@24.2.9.61...
>
> > Diablerie is a great story hook, the tricky part is how to run it with
> just
> > enough carrot (poisoned though it may be) that the player sees it as a
> good
> > thing... and enough of a slowly developing stick that the player has no
> > idea how much hell they're getting into.
>
> Exactly. Like most other aspects of vampiric existance, diablerie can be
> used for great stories. Same goes for the special traits of all other splats
> too. Many can't see beyond the rules though, and let good stories go to
> waste just because of something in the rulebook.
>
> > Have fun, and keep us up to date with what you do :)
>
> "Have fun" is the most important rule IMHO. People should remember that when
> asking about what's possible and impossible, and certainly when answering
> such questions. A newbie roleplayer will be unessecarily limited if people
> obsessed with rules tell him what works and what doesn't.
I'm currently running a high powered game where I gave every player the 'Hidden
Diablerie' Merit for free. And we are having LOADS of fun!
He-Zin Kwon
> And how do you think new paths are made? Have you seen the character in
the
> Revised Tremere clanbook that made the Technomancy path?
Hey, we don't speak of Thaumaturgy PATHS, but of making a discipline which
simulates Thaumaturgy. ^_^
But you are right, if you have Thaumaturgy you can (someday) develop own
paths.
Tiama'at
told as follows:
>He-Zin Kwon tried to say something but ended up writing:
>
>> > All right, you can't *learn* Thaumaturgy without a mentor. But you
>> > can *develop* something which is exactly like Thaumaturgy. :-)
>>
>> At least you can try... ^_^
>>
>> > Thomas Weinbrenner
>>
>> He-Zin "Yasseira" Kwon
>>
>
>And how do you think new paths are made? Have you seen the character in
>the Revised Tremere clanbook that made the Technomancy path?
That's not a really great example. It's obvious that her "discoveries"
were assisted by something else (and risking opening this flame war again)
she's a broken character - not only has she developed her won path
(Technomancy) to level 5 (complete with rituals) but she is also a master
of Blood Thaumaturgy as well - not bad for someone embraced in 1985
(considering, if you read the rules for Thaumaturgy it implies that level 5
in one path alone takes over 25 years of non-stop learning, and that
developing your own path should take about a century).
CB:Tremere is not a great source of info on "Blood Magic". Pick up the
book of the same name for a much better treatment, and one that is a bit
more inline with the information in the Revised rulebook - especially in
the area of Technomagic.
The Dracon
> As the Pellis Artisan read from the skins, the story of The Dracon was
> told as follows:
>
> >He-Zin Kwon tried to say something but ended up writing:
> >
> >> > All right, you can't *learn* Thaumaturgy without a mentor. But you
> >> > can *develop* something which is exactly like Thaumaturgy. :-)
> >>
> >> At least you can try... ^_^
> >>
> >> > Thomas Weinbrenner
> >>
> >> He-Zin "Yasseira" Kwon
> >>
> >
> >And how do you think new paths are made? Have you seen the character in
> >the Revised Tremere clanbook that made the Technomancy path?
>
> That's not a really great example. It's obvious that her "discoveries"
> were assisted by something else (and risking opening this flame war again)
> she's a broken character - not only has she developed her won path
> (Technomancy) to level 5 (complete with rituals) but she is also a master
> of Blood Thaumaturgy as well - not bad for someone embraced in 1985
> (considering, if you read the rules for Thaumaturgy it implies that level 5
> in one path alone takes over 25 years of non-stop learning, and that
> developing your own path should take about a century).
>
> CB:Tremere is not a great source of info on "Blood Magic". Pick up the
> book of the same name for a much better treatment, and one that is a bit
> more inline with the information in the Revised rulebook - especially in
> the area of Technomagic.
I found out that it was a bad exaple just after I posted it...
Anyway, another point I wanted to add is that some people also give extra
knowledges to the Diablerist. Things like an extra dot of occult and such. If
you use that rule, then Thaumaturgical knowledge can be recieved through
Diablerie.
Another point: Do newly Ebraced Vampires get Thaumaturgy immedeately? Normal
character creation allows that to happen (at least as far as I know).
LadyCin
> >
> > "Have fun" is the most important rule IMHO. People should remember that
when
> > asking about what's possible and impossible, and certainly when
answering
> > such questions. A newbie roleplayer will be unessecarily limited if
people
> > obsessed with rules tell him what works and what doesn't.
>
> I'm currently running a high powered game where I gave every player the
'Hidden
> Diablerie' Merit for free. And we are having LOADS of fun!
>
>
> The Dracon of Revised Clanbook Tzimisce, and loving it!
>
> The Exalted Lexicon collection:
> http://home.wanadoo.nl/the_dracon/exalted_lexicon.rtf
>
> (-=\V/=-)
Thank you Thank you Thank you....someone finally remembered the basic rule
of any RPG....Have Fun
I absolutely HATE rules lawyers...gaming books of ANY kind are 'guides' not
freaking 'written in stone commandments'...it is up to the ST to decide what
is and isn't allowed...just because WW wrote it doesn't mean you have to
believe it or use it
Anything can happen in an RPG....and I mean "ANYTHING"...a good ST will be
able to handle anything a player can come up with...and if the player can
develop a reasonable and plausible explanation of what they are wanting to
do, the ST can usually allow whatever his/her players can dream up
I will admit that most would consider me to be a 'power gamer', but I also
work for the good of the group first and personal power as the opportunity
arises...but after 20+ years as a gamer, methinks that I can usually find a
loophole in any game system and know how to manipulate things to my own
advantage...*weg*
Just my opinion :) comments or criticism accepted...flames will be
ignored
Lady Cin
"If you can't laugh at yourself...why do you think everyone else is???"
http://www.alabamatechnologies.com
BlakXXJack
question phrased anything like "Should a character with X be able to do Y?",
the overwhelming reply is, "Do what's best for the story." Some people like to
know if the folks at White Wolf have supplied an official answer. Yes, the
rulebooks are just suggestions that don't have to be religiously followed, but
there's no need to be hostile towards storytellers that find it more convenient
to know if there's been a published "suggestion," or if other people have
encountered similar problems and how those people dealt with them. I'm fairly
sure most people coming to this forum with a problem already know to do what's
best for the story; their problem is most likely that they're not entirely sure
what that is and could use some advice. Maybe I'm shooting way off the mark
here, but in this thread in particular I saw a lot of pro-golden rule venting
and not a lot of suggesting. As for my idea on whether diablerie could
reasonably grant Thamaturgy, I'd say yes. It's something in the blood, and as
others have already noted, diablerie could reasonably grant memories of
thamaturgical study.
--M
Mike Tilly
news:20010626025847...@ng-mo1.aol.com...
> You know, every time someone running a game comes on here asking a
> question phrased anything like "Should a character with X be able to do
Y?",
> the overwhelming reply is, "Do what's best for the story."
As far as I can remember, most answers follow the rules as if they were the
word of God. If there is no rule, answers go with what would've been the
logical rule in this case. Maybe it's just me and my liberal views of what's
in the books, but I remember most answers as negative too. Most X's can't do
Y in any way, that is. Sure, a fair share of the questions come from
beginners or twinks, but still, answers to this kind of question are too
often limiting and boring IMHO.
> Maybe I'm shooting way off the mark
> here, but in this thread in particular I saw a lot of pro-golden rule
venting
> and not a lot of suggesting.
I agree. Just answering "do whatever you think is fun" is as bad as bashing
the guy asking over the head with the rulebooks. I just think that with a
little imagination and less rule obession, you can create very interesting
stories, and that's the whole point of roleplaying. The only limits I impose
on myself are the ones of the WoD in general . I try to keep the game
Vampire or whatever it is we're playing, so it doesn't space out.
Besides, my liberal view is just one of many. If the guy takes all answers
into consideration, he'll still follow the rules pretty much. I just don't
think there's any point in saying "no, you can't do Y" if five people
already have said it. The best thing then is to think of why it can be done
and share it. If you read my first suggestions to what could happen in the
case of the diablerist who wanted Thaumaturgy, I think you'll find my
suggestions more interesting that what the rules seem to say (i.e. nothing
happens).
Stephenls
> Another point: Do newly Ebraced Vampires get Thaumaturgy immedeately?
> Normal character creation allows that to happen (at least as far as I
> know).
The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several years
before the game actually starts.
--
Stephenls
Geek
I'd like to, but I'm paralyzed with not caring very much.
--Spike
The_Livewire
news:3B3CED24...@dccnet.com...
> The Dracon wrote:
>
> > Another point: Do newly Ebraced Vampires get Thaumaturgy immedeately?
> > Normal character creation allows that to happen (at least as far as I
> > know).
>
> The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several years
> before the game actually starts.
(I know, picking on tpyos bad form, but...)
Did anyone else get the idea of the poor vamp being embraced by an e-mail or
something when they read Ebraced?
> --
> Stephenls
The Livewire
The Dracon
In a time where everybody stays at home Vampires need to be resourceful to
create new ones ;)
Triple E
This makes me wonder if those nasty spams and chain mails aren't
really some really crafty Malkavian with insane levels of Auspex
finding a clever way to feed.
Although personally, if I were a vampire in this stay at home age,
I'd order out for a lot of things, and feed off the delivery people.
Not a bad gig, esp. if you have Dominate or some other way to cover
things up.
~EEE~
Brandon Quina
> > > The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several
> > > years before the game actually starts.
> >
> > (I know, picking on tpyos bad form, but...)
> >
> > Did anyone else get the idea of the poor vamp being embraced by an
> > e-mail or something when they read Ebraced?
>
> In a time where everybody stays at home Vampires need to be
> resourceful to create new ones ;)
Yep:) It was a natural outgrowth of Ehunting.
--
Brandon L. Quina, Jacksonville, FL
EMAIL: bran...@bellsouth.net ICQ: 39755700
Brandon Quina
> Although personally, if I were a vampire in this stay at home age,
> I'd order out for a lot of things, and feed off the delivery people.
> Not a bad gig, esp. if you have Dominate or some other way to cover
> things up.
Nah. Hit the internet chatrooms! Find people who live nearby, and hit
them with everything you've got. I imagine a vampire with a bit of
practice at this could get where he could feed several times a week off
his stable. Plus, it makes it a lot easier to keep track of your herd
and everything. All the socialization is conducted through email and
chatrooms;) You've got to be careful, though. Don't want to let any
other internet players move in on your territory...
RonGin21
>> The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several years
>> before the game actually starts.
>
>(I know, picking on tpyos bad form, but...)
>
>Did anyone else get the idea of the poor vamp being embraced by an e-mail or
>something when they read Ebraced?
>
WARNING! If you recieve an email with the subject line "Caine says Hi!" DO
NOT OPEN IT! It will send copies of itself to everyone in you address book,
trash your harddrive and turn you into an unholy blood-drinking fiend of the
night. It does this by exploiting certain security flaws in Outlook and
Outlook express...
Owlfeather
rong...@aol.com
Raoul Borges
> who live nearby, and hit them with everything
> you've got. I imagine a vampire with a bit of
> practice at this could get where he could feed
> several times a week off his stable. Plus, it
> makes it a lot easier to keep track of your herd
> and everything. All the socialization is
> conducted through email and chatrooms;) You've
> got to be careful, though. Don't want to let any
> other internet players move in on your territory...
This is the Jyhad of the future: After the control
over the peasant herds, after the control of the
nightclubbers herds, the control of the Chat-roomers
herds!
8th Tradition: You shall not transgress the IRC
number of your sire's (IP) Domain , because Caine
did say it was 'Baaaaaaaad'...
[Rationnalisation: This, my Childe, is the proof
Caine was really a modern guy...]
; p
Raoul Borges
http://wod.augias.org/
P.S.: Of course, the 7th Tradition (''Don't get
caught!'') still applies!
; p
Chris J. Whitcomb
Triple E <ewsc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:66dd031a.01070...@posting.google.com...
I've actually had a player in one of my games do this... it was a Toreador
who was low on blood and knew that there were some Brujah watching his haven
for when he left... so he called up a pizza place and snacked on the
delivery boy... well lets just say he went a little overboard and the pizza
place was placing help wanted ads... :P
StormGryphon (Shane Mahon)
Stephenls <step...@dccnet.com> wrote in message
news:3B3CED24...@dccnet.com...
Kish
>
> NO, it doesn't....
A most convincing argument.
--
Kish
ICQ# 28085879
AIM Kish K M
Thomas Weinbrenner
<http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nquote.html>]
"StormGryphon (Shane Mahon)" <sma...@qwest.net> writes:
> Stephenls <step...@dccnet.com> wrote in message
> news:3B3CED24...@dccnet.com...
> > The Dracon wrote:
> > > Another point: Do newly Ebraced Vampires get Thaumaturgy
> > > immedeately? Normal character creation allows that to happen
> > > (at least as far as I know).
> > The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several
> > years before the game actually starts.
> NO, it doesn't....
"All players' characters are assumed to have no more than 25 years of
experience as Kindred." (V:tM p.102)
--
Thomas Weinbrenner
Kish
>
> [Quoting repaired, please read
> <http://member.newsguy.com/~schramm/nquote.html>]
Thank you. (Quite serious.)
>
> "StormGryphon (Shane Mahon)" <sma...@qwest.net> writes:
>
> > Stephenls <step...@dccnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B3CED24...@dccnet.com...
> > > The Dracon wrote:
>
> > > > Another point: Do newly Ebraced Vampires get Thaumaturgy
> > > > immedeately? Normal character creation allows that to happen
> > > > (at least as far as I know).
>
> > > The game system assumes that the character was "Ebraced" several
> > > years before the game actually starts.
>
> > NO, it doesn't....
>
> "All players' characters are assumed to have no more than 25 years of
> experience as Kindred." (V:tM p.102)
Of course, it's worth noting that that gives an upper limit--not a lower
limit.
Stephenls
> NO, it doesn't....
Yes, it does. Look at vampire society. A neonate is considered a
nonentity for upwards of ten years after its embrace, and only after
passing a series of tests does it gain the protection of the Traditions.
Now, do player characters start out as nonentities still apprenticed to
their sires? Find me the page in the book that talks about storytelling
that period (which would be incredibly boring and rather humiliating).
You can't, can you? That's because it isn't there. Thus, I can only
assume that the game's "default" is to have PCs who have already gone
throught their "apprenticeship" and have been agnoledged by the Prince.
Thus, they have been vampires for some time.
Same with Sabbat characters. The game assumes that player characters
are already True Sabbat. While the waiting period is shorter, it's
still there.
Therefor, you are the one who is wrong, and I am the one who is right.
--
Stephenls
"Ever closer to the goal of being Almost Always Right."
Geek
I hate everybody.
-Daria
Brandon Quina
> Therefor, you are the one who is wrong, and I am the one who is right.
*cheers!*
Good arguement, by the way. I agreed with you, but couldn't think of a
way to prove it.
Idly though, how do you think one WOULD represent newly embraced
vampires? The cavaet of just making them as brand new characters always
seemed sort of... wrong ...to me.
--
Brandon L. Quina, Jacksonville, FL
EMAIL: bran...@bellsouth.net ICQ: 39755700
LIVEJOURNAL: http://www.livejournal.com/users/brandonq/
Fangorn
>
> Stephenls wrote:
> > Therefor, you are the one who is wrong, and I am the one who is right.
>
> *cheers!*
>
> Good arguement, by the way. I agreed with you, but couldn't think of a
> way to prove it.
>
> Idly though, how do you think one WOULD represent newly embraced
> vampires? The cavaet of just making them as brand new characters always
> seemed sort of... wrong ...to me.
>
Probably just make a mortal character. Prelude the week or so leading up
to his Embrace, possibly with him noticing that he seems to be being
watched by someone, then roleplay the Embrace.
When he wakes up from his first frenzy, he'll have to learn how to spend
blood, extend his fangs, feed and so on. Depending on Clan, he may
develop his first three dots of Disciplines naturally, or have to be
taught all but the most instinctive use of them.
-Fangorn
Paint is the only reality.
Dave Shelton
> of a
> way to prove it.
>
taught by someone on how to use their powers, but it doesn't take into
account non-Camarilla and non-Sabbat vampires. Caitiffs don't have a
sire to teach them. But the game does assume that the neonate has
mastered his or her abilities and can function without problems.
Otherwise you'd have vampire's running around as players who wouldn't
know if the discipline they were going to use actually will work when
they need it. However I've never read anywhere where it says that a
vampire is not recognized as a member of the society until 10 years has
passed unless your talking about KotE. You can play a character that
has mastered his powers but isn't finished with his instructions. It
might even make for a great character, considering that they have to
walk lighly in kindred society because everything that they do has an
impact on their sire's unlife.
As far as Thaumaturgy, I've always assumed it was a mixture of blood use
and hedgemagic that has been bonded to the blood of the thaumaturge.
I've told my players that A) the Tremere doesn't take too kindly to
other Tremere teaching them the discipline and B) it takes 2d10 years
minus there intellegence to learn the basics of the first Path that is
chosen even in the event of diablery. This time is needed to learn the
proper rituals and to learn how to combine their blood with the magic.
BTW the same goes for necromancy as well. In my WOD, these and any
other discipline that was created after the original clans were aren't
necessarily part of Caine's legacy. It takes time to learn how to get
your blood to do the things that allow you to use that discipline.
Exceptions would be Dementation and Visicitude, both of which seems to
be a disease rather than a manifestation of Caine's power....or are
they. hmmmmmmmmm
noi...@zdnetmail.blockspamcom
>vampires? The cavaet of just making them as brand new characters always
>seemed sort of... wrong ...to me.
A number of the LARPs that I have participated in internationally have
new childer as player characters - often this is due to a ghoul PC
being embraced in the course of the game.
One player in my current chronicle (Danse Macabre, New Zealand) has
been playing his PC from a new ghoul to a childe to an Acknowledged
Camarilla Kindred over the course of... hmm.. almost three years now?
His now-neonate character has had a long and rocky road under the
watchful eye of Clan Ventrue (currently under the auspice of my PC as
Primogen/Ancilla/Aedile) and the player has accepted the role of a
downtrodden little creature stoically and enjoyed the journey - he's
had his own goals and achieved a few personal victories along the way,
and the player has had fun (at least that's what he told me when I was
chatting with him this evening!)
I've played a mortal-turned-ghoul here in NZ, and the learning process
of a "blank-slate" style character who's bottom of the heap is as
rewarding a role as playing a prince (and comes with a significantly
lighter workload!) Another NPC I ran for some Storytellers in Northern
Virginia was a brain-damaged Caitiff worth less than nothing to anyone
- the character ran effectively as a contribution to the game for
about three months before it was destroyed as part of a hunter plot
The story of the underling or the insignificant worm follows a
different style from those of a Kindred - not better or worse, more or
less fun, just different! The Minion Coterie potential is there if you
have a group of such characters supporting each other while attempting
to cater to the whims of their own masters (and praying that the job
your friends are helping you with isn't counter to any of their own
sires'/domitors'/regnants' plans...(and hoping that they don't find
out that you /do/ know when they discover what it is they're actually
doing...)).
The Learning Curve (ie "How to not play as if your character had White
Wolf Lore : 5 Traits.") can also be a fun lesson as you learn from the
other players in the game. You can end up with a character with some
very warped viewpoints ;o)
It's not for every player, I guess, but I find I enjoy it as a
character role that I can step in to. It helps keep me humble for the
times I get to play the Big Guns in a game. :o) Call it a balanced
character diet :o)
Dunx
Stephenls
> Idly though, how do you think one WOULD represent newly
> embraced vampires? The cavaet of just making them as brand new
> characters always seemed sort of... wrong ...to me.
6/4/3, 11/7/4, five dots in backgrounds, eight dots in virtues. Give
out double experience for the first six months of a vampires unlife.
Just off the top of my head.
--
Stephenls
"The opinion expresed in my .sig quote is not necessarily my own."
Stephenls
> It was right and it was wrong, IMHO. It assumes that the neonates
> were taught by someone on how to use their powers, but it doesn't take
> into account non-Camarilla and non-Sabbat vampires. Caitiffs don't
> have a sire to teach them. But the game does assume that the neonate
> has mastered his or her abilities and can function without problems.
> Otherwise you'd have vampire's running around as players who wouldn't
> know if the discipline they were going to use actually will work when
> they need it. However I've never read anywhere where it says that a
> vampire is not recognized as a member of the society until 10 years has passed unless your talking about KotE.
I didn't say ten years. I said "upwards of ten years". It's a variable
figure, depending on how fast the neonate learns and how much the prince
likes the sire/likes the child/needs a new functioning lackey/whatever.
> You can play a character that has mastered his powers but isn't
> finished with his instructions. It might even make for a great
> character, considering that they have to walk lighly in kindred
> society because everything that they do has an impact on their sire's
> unlife.
True. Still, it takes months/years for certain vampires to even learn
how to spend blood.
--
Stephenls
"The opinion expresed in my .sig quote is not necessarily my own."
Machiavelli132
know if the discipline they were going to use actually will work when
they need it.>>>>>>
Wouldn't it be cool if the Disciplines were far less reliable?
Add a bit of uncertainty to the game, I think.
Stephenls
> Wouldn't it be cool if the Disciplines were far less reliable?
> Add a bit of uncertainty to the game, I think.
I believe they tried that with first edition Werewolf Gifts, as an
excuse to only half-develop the mechanics.
No, I don't think it would be a good idea to make Disciplines "Wild
Magic". Far too much paperwork and dice rolls. I prefer to concentrate
on characterization and plot.
--
Stephenls
Geek
It's because they're stupid, that's why! That's everyone does
everything! --Homer Simpson
Sven Weihusen
Don't think so.
A Nosferatu character without a reliabel Obfuscate is unplayabel. "I have the
Power to jump over to the other skyscraper",uups,"How can I integrate my
other character in this Story?". "When the sun comes over the horizon I meld
with the earth, ehh I said I meld wiTH THE EARTH, OH SHIT!!!!" Britzel.
greetings Sven
Machiavelli132
Potence, it might "run out" at a bad time. It might just help make the game
less like Superheroes with Fangs.
Leo Fellmann
"Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B53B82D...@pacbell.net...
IIRC, the 15 bonus points represent what a character has learnt after being
embraced.
Silverfeet
roleplaying out the Embrace and the fledgling years and *then* entering into
the neonate game? (core rulebook, guidebooks, but especially St handbook)
Silverfeet
Stephenls <step...@dccnet.com> wrote in message
news:3B53C8DE...@dccnet.com...
Otaku
Well I don't know about heroes, but vampires are certainly
super/human/. That's part of their essence. In most cases, the
Masquerade prevents them from overexerting their superhumanity, though.
At least in my game, the Masquerade is not defined simply as "using
Disciplines in front of mortals." If a vampire insists on being part of
a murder investigation for some reason, but doesn't have the background
to provide him access to police, he may well end up endangering the
Masquerade by getting the police curious about his past. Similarly,
some Disciplines (like Auspex off the top of my head) can be used almost
freely in front of mortals without causing a breach. Almost. It's all
a matter of subtlety. Vampires need to be subtle in order to stay alive
(unalive), so they can't go running around in a cape and tights unless
they really want a stake between the ribs.
Kish
And more like Call of Cthulhu, hmm?
Machiavelli132
Not exactly. But I think "Personal Horror" might be aided if one's superpowers
weren't quite as...well...cool. If they were dangerous and unpredictable, you
might get that whole Gee-I-Can-Get-Awesome-Power-But-At-A-Steep-Price angle.
Kish
Bruce Baugh wrote something along you might find interesting a while
ago. Try this:
Mant
> Yeah, but it would add an element of risk. If the Brujah over-used that
> Potence, it might "run out" at a bad time. It might just help make the game
> less like Superheroes with Fangs.
The game is only Superheroes with Fangs if thats who the players want
it to be. Erratic powers just piss off players and STs. Many need a
roll/BP anyway so there is some chance of failiure or running out.
And I'll say now, for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong
with Superheros with Fangs. Seriously.
The genre of vampire (small 'v' deliberate) stories is massively
broad, no reason Vampire games need to keep to a small part of it. If
people's ideas of Vampire characters are from Angel or Forever Knight
then whats wrong with that?
Mant
Mant
How sacry would the Elders be if their powers failed on them half the
time? Not very.
Being cool is very, very much part of the vampire mystique. Its why
all those LARPers think vamps dress up neo-goths. In the modern
version of the vampire myth they *are* cool and hip and sexy, and wear
lots of black.
If you want to play up the personal horrror (and despite its tagline,
I think Vampire hasn't much to do with personal horror in most played
games) the "coolness" is the tempting factor, but underneath there is
a price.
The more powers the vampire has the harder it is to relate to humans.
Is a vampire who can Presence or Dominate someone really going to
respect their opinion and debate a point with then? Not likely. The
more power they have, the less connection they have, and the harder it
becomes to hold onto Humanity.
In my games I also tend to play up the side effects of Disciplines. A
vampire who uses a power a lot will start to develop small quirks
reflecting it. A heavy user of Presence will find they attract people
all the time, power use or no. Its fairly subtle, but helps emphasis
the growing difference between them and mortals.
Mant
Sven Weihusen
What's the problem? A mere Human is no danger to a Vampire. Nearly every
vampir can kill nearaly any human. But a mere human is normaly not the enemy.
The enemy has fangs and a lot of points in his disciplines. If that's not
enough add some points or add the enemys twin brother. The point is, that the
players should have problems with the enemy and not with their neighbours. In
every RPG a character after the first grad can kill a normal citizen.
Fangorn
Excellent article. I think that the whole "price of immortality" thing
is something that can only be dealt with by the Storyteller, not just a
system of rules that mean your powers might not work.
The true price of having power is that you have to deal with being
someone who has power. You have to deal with the temptation to prove
that you're better than everyone else. You have to deal with the
temptation of a Titan complex, the thought that you have the right to do
what you like just because you can. Basically, if you have power you
have to deal with the temptation to get it out and wave it around once
in a while.
This can be incredibly tricky to run a game about, especially if your
group still has to evolve past the D&D mentality.
Has anyone out there managed to run a game based on this theme?
-Fangorn
Cool powers are the only reality! Let's go kick some righteous ass!
Huzzah!
Coridan
"Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B5791D9...@pacbell.net...
> Machiavelli132 wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, but it would add an element of risk. If the Brujah over-used that
> > Potence, it might "run out" at a bad time. It might just help make the
game
> > less like Superheroes with Fangs.
>
> And more like Call of Cthulhu, hmm?
That would be a good thing, yes. CoC is regarded by many as the best horror
RPG ever written. It's certainly won it's share of awards.
--
"No one can make you do anything."
"Violence is always an option."
"Mistakes are made, and fixed."
"A good man does all things well."
- The proverbs of Orlanth, King of the Storm Gods.
"Orlanth is King, and we are his tribe!"
Orlanthi Rallying Cry
Chris Bell
arg...@agoron.com
cor...@telocity.com
Coridan
> > > > > years before the game actually starts.
> > >
> > > > NO, it doesn't....
> > >
> > > "All players' characters are assumed to have no more than 25 years of
> > > experience as Kindred." (V:tM p.102)
> >
> > Of course, it's worth noting that that gives an upper limit--not a lower
> > limit.
>
> IIRC, the 15 bonus points represent what a character has learnt after
being
> embraced.
It's largely a question of play style. Again, as mentioned before, many
players have a visage of the vampire as being powerful and cool. This is
certainly part of the genre, and if running a game with this tone, the ST
needs to plan accordingly. A game of high powered characters can be handled
quite well using some tips from Aberrant, with the PC's having to deal with
the widening gulf between them and the majority of sentients on the planet.
Aberrant is a fine game, but it takes many cues from Vampire, which is not
necessarily a bad thing.
Quriky powers aren't necessarily a good thing, unless dealing with something
really dangerous, like Thaumaturgy. Mssr Baugh's notes on how Kindred powers
can corrupt the vampire and turn him or her into a monster even more quickly
are well thought out - I plan on using them.
That said, my preferred style of Vampire is to always run the Embrace and a
full prelude, as well as a good establishing chunk of the character's mortal
life. I find that it's better that the player and GM have a strong image in
their mind of what the PC is like before the embrace, so, like in a film,
there is a strong shock when the Embrace takes place, a moment of exquesit
and absolute horror.
My preferred play style for vampire is as a horror setting - where the
character is just as much afraid of him or her self as he or she is of the
rest of the world.
patrick burke
"Coridan" <sart...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C9q67.2488$A4....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> "Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3B5791D9...@pacbell.net...
> > Machiavelli132 wrote:
> > >
> > > Yeah, but it would add an element of risk. If the Brujah over-used
that
> > > Potence, it might "run out" at a bad time. It might just help make the
> game
> > > less like Superheroes with Fangs.
> >
> > And more like Call of Cthulhu, hmm?
>
> That would be a good thing, yes. CoC is regarded by many as the best
horror
> RPG ever written. It's certainly won it's share of awards.
So why reinvent the wheel? Truth is Vampire: tM does not work esp. well
as a horror game. It works very well as a game of personal horror. Many
people seem to feel these are synonymous, but they are not at all. Indeed
they are somewhat at odds. In a horror game fear comes from without, The
Things That Go Bump In The Night. In personal horror, you ARE The Thing That
Goes Bump In The Night. In horror it is important that you be hopelessly
outclassed by the adversary. In personal horror you should outclass just
about everything.
Jim Burdo
> news:3B5791D9...@pacbell.net...
> > Machiavelli132 wrote:
> > >
> > > Yeah, but it would add an element of risk. If the Brujah over-used that
> > > Potence, it might "run out" at a bad time. It might just help make the
> game
> > > less like Superheroes with Fangs.
> >
> > And more like Call of Cthulhu, hmm?
>
> That would be a good thing, yes. CoC is regarded by many as the best horror
> RPG ever written. It's certainly won it's share of awards.
Like David Mack (creator of Kabuki) said, when you try to make
something like another work, it becomes stale and lifeless. You
certainly aren't a fan of making Mage like Vampire Revised. Besides,
the powers work reliably enough in coC (taking into account things
like resistance), it's Sanity that ends to fail.