Some thoughts on the Wyrm, a Kindred's angle.
Christopher Beattie
recently, so bear with me for a moment.
It has been said that the Wyrm is the manifestation and
symbol of entropy and decay and that Vampires are "of the
Wyrm." but is the latter really so? Now it can be said that
Vampires are in general Wyrm tainted to a great extent, but
are they of themselves "of the Wyrm." I would like to
propose arguments for why this is not the case, and show
arguments for why they are indeed highly tainted. These are
just ideas that have been on my mind. Lupines are always
free to ignore these ramblings.
Mention "Wyrm" and things like decay, toxic waste, nuclear
testing, forest clearcutting, and so forth come to mind.
The Wyrm is a corrupter, destroyer, defiler. It is like a
cancer on the world, growing, eating, and spreading.
Yet, I really doubt that any Kindred wake up each evening
with the though, "Ah now what can I do to make this world a
more polluted and fetid place?" Quite the contrary, the
smart Kindred is concerned with one and only one thing,
preserving the blood supply, which in the case of powerful
Kindred, is preserving the supply of lesser kindred. Lesser
kindred still need to feed on mortals, and as such do have
to worry about keeping mortals generally alive and healthy,
and obviously the Wyrm wants no one to be healthy.
And yet, Kindred are in general Wyrm tainted. Why is this
so? Well, in general, Kindred like to exist around areas
with large human populations, towns, cities and the like.
Where many men are wont to gather, the Wyrm is sure to
follow. Mortals, who are victims of the Wyrm, are then fed
upon by Kindred, and thus the essence of the Wyrm corrupts
the Kindred, as it does the people and the land. But unlike
the people and the land, the long life of the Kindred
accumulates the Wyrm, as many fish accumulate toxic metals.
As long as Kine deaths due to the toxic environment is far
less than the Kindred feeding rate, most Kindred either do
not recognize the threat or choose to ignore it as a part of
getting adequate feeding populations.
Even nature loving Kindred, such as the Gangrel, will
occasionally feed in a city, or even a town which had people
who lived in the city, so the taint of the Wyrm is
impossible to escape.
And there is, perhaps a reason why the Kindred should also
concern themselves with the corrupting Wyrm. Toxic wastes,
chemicals, radioactive materials are a part of technology,
are to a small part a part of the Technocracy the Mages
refer to. Now it has been said that the Technocracy and the
Kindred are not openly at war with each other, but is there
a more sinister secret plot? Kindred descend from Cane, and
Cane from Eve and Adam, according to stories which some may
or may not take credence. The Technocracy, on the other
hand is a strong supporter of "evolution." By replacing
Eve, with Lucy as it were, perhaps they hope to one day
remove the Kindred threat literally at the source, by
destroying the very fabric which the Kindred believe they
exist. It doesn't matter if the young Kindred believe this
or not, it's the sleeping antediluvians in topor who believe
and perhaps the Technocracy hopes that one day, when all the
whos in whoville believe in Lucy and no longer believe in
Eve, that the Antediluvians will slip from topor into
oblivion without raising even a finger in protest. Scary,
isn't it?
Anway, those are my thoughts, such as they are.
| _____ |Christopher Beattie |Tantalus Incorporated|
| ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus @ Key West | P.O. Box 2310|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Division| Key West, FL 33045|
| O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chr...@mpgn.com |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| Opinions expressed here belong to me! | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
byer...@utdallas.edu
> The Wyrm is a corrupter, destroyer, defiler. It is like a
> cancer on the world, growing, eating, and spreading.
> Yet, I really doubt that any Kindred wake up each evening
> with the though, "Ah now what can I do to make this world a
> more polluted and fetid place?"
I see what you're saying, but don't quite agree. Continue.
> Even nature loving Kindred, such as the Gangrel, will
> occasionally feed in a city, or even a town which had people
> who lived in the city, so the taint of the Wyrm is
> impossible to escape.
are my cousins
That last bit.....whoa.
Rewrite belief to get rid of our kind? Yech.
Possible, but not very probable. Scary idea though.
About the Wyrm taint. YOu're right about what we concern ourselves with,
but I don't see the reasoning behind the other. Here's how I've seen it.
Part of the Wyld is a maintaining of the natural cycle of birth, life,
and death, correct? Then vampires, by breaking the circle, become of the
Wyrm whether we like it or not. It's not what we do, it's what we are.
Since we continure to defy the true cycle set by the Wyld, we are
...automatically?....assigned to be of the Wyrm.
Unless, o'course, you're a Tzimche. Then your every day is an attempt to
fuck over as many pwople as possible.
My change, ladies and gentles....
Jonothan Kael
Gangrel Antitribu
--
"I walk a fine line, and I step to the edge, to see my world below...
and I laugh to myself, as the tears roll down, cause it's the world
I know..." Collective Soul-"The world I know"
"My life's become cumbersome....." 7 Mary 3-"Cumbersome"
Aeacus
>And yet, Kindred are in general Wyrm tainted. Why is this
>so? Well, in general, Kindred like to exist around areas
>with large human populations, towns, cities and the like.
>Where many men are wont to gather, the Wyrm is sure to
>follow. Mortals, who are victims of the Wyrm, are then fed
>upon by Kindred, and thus the essence of the Wyrm corrupts
>the Kindred, as it does the people and the land. But unlike
>the people and the land, the long life of the Kindred
>accumulates the Wyrm, as many fish accumulate toxic metals.
>As long as Kine deaths due to the toxic environment is far
>less than the Kindred feeding rate, most Kindred either do
>not recognize the threat or choose to ignore it as a part of
>getting adequate feeding populations.
>Even nature loving Kindred, such as the Gangrel, will
>occasionally feed in a city, or even a town which had people
>who lived in the city, so the taint of the Wyrm is
>impossible to escape.
I don't think its that they feed in a city, its that they feed have to
feed on Humans. The act of taking blood from a person and drinking it
is not a very nice thing to do. The fact that vampires drink human
blood to survive is why they often have Wyrm-taint. But that is not
the only reason. There has been talk on several threads that a Vampire
'loses' his Avatar when he is embraced and it is replaced with a shard
of Caine's. But my belief is that they do not lose their Avatar and
have it replaced, but that their Avatar is corrupted by Caine's blood
coarsing through their veins, creaing the curse of Vampirism. This
corruption of the Avatar will cause the vampire to have the
Wyrm-taint. But a vampire will only have the taint if his humanity is
less than 7.
Of course the Sabbat, haviing rejected their humanity and embraced the
Beast could be considered 'of the Wyrm' and not merely Wyrm-tainted.
After all, the Beast is the peice of the Wyrm within the Garou, so why
is it not in the Vampires.
Aeacus
aka Corey Rose
Michael Lindseth
writes:
>This is something that has been wyrming into my mind
>recently, so bear with me for a moment.
>
>It has been said that the Wyrm is the manifestation and
>symbol of entropy and decay and that Vampires are "of the
>Wyrm." but is the latter really so? Now it can be said that
>Vampires are in general Wyrm tainted to a great extent, but
>are they of themselves "of the Wyrm." I would like to
>propose arguments for why this is not the case, and show
>arguments for why they are indeed highly tainted. These are
>just ideas that have been on my mind. Lupines are always
>free to ignore these ramblings.
>
>Mention "Wyrm" and things like decay, toxic waste, nuclear
>testing, forest clearcutting, and so forth come to mind.
>cancer on the world, growing, eating, and spreading.
>
>with the though, "Ah now what can I do to make this world a
>smart Kindred is concerned with one and only one thing,
>preserving the blood supply, which in the case of powerful
>Kindred, is preserving the supply of lesser kindred. Lesser
>kindred still need to feed on mortals, and as such do have
>to worry about keeping mortals generally alive and healthy,
>and obviously the Wyrm wants no one to be healthy.
>
>so? Well, in general, Kindred like to exist around areas
>with large human populations, towns, cities and the like.
>Where many men are wont to gather, the Wyrm is sure to
>follow. Mortals, who are victims of the Wyrm, are then fed
>upon by Kindred, and thus the essence of the Wyrm corrupts
>the Kindred, as it does the people and the land. But unlike
>the people and the land, the long life of the Kindred
>accumulates the Wyrm, as many fish accumulate toxic metals.
>As long as Kine deaths due to the toxic environment is far
>less than the Kindred feeding rate, most Kindred either do
>not recognize the threat or choose to ignore it as a part of
>getting adequate feeding populations.
>
>Even nature loving Kindred, such as the Gangrel, will
>occasionally feed in a city, or even a town which had people
>who lived in the city, so the taint of the Wyrm is
>impossible to escape.
>
Being of the wyrm has nothing to do with one's intentions, one's needs,
or especially with where one tends to live. Rather it involves one's
existence, or how one came to be. A vampire is a creature which has
been unnaturally animated from the dead, and unnaturally sustains
itself by feeding in living blood and corrupting it into fuel for both
its exitence and its powers. It is because of this that vampires are
considered to be of the wyrm. Glasswalkers do not exhibit wyrm taint
even though they prefer the city. Get of Fenris do not carry wyrm
taint even though many of them are racist assholes. Shadowlords do not
smell of the wyrm , and yet their lust for power supercedes all other
desires.
Just a few opinions that I hope helped.
Jo Hart
impressed with it (I enjoyed it a lot more than the main Werewolf book
which probably says more about me ;-)). But as a Vampire ST, my first thought
was 'Why doesn't Pentex have a Setite on the Board'?
I would have thought this Wyrm-corruption thing would have been right up
their street.
Wyrm=Set anyone? :-)
jo
ps. My other thought was that I really don't understand the dependence of
the Wyrm taint on humanity. I would have thought that either vamps are Wyrm-
tainted by nature (if you buy the Garou cosmology) or not. A vamp could have
humanity 5/6 for being able to kill when necessary without remorse (I think
killing by negligence is cited as the example for humanity 6 in the Vampire
book).. something which some Garou (and Mages and Changelings) do all the
time - it seems like a double standard to me...).
Sorry if this gets brought up a lot - as I said, I only just read the Book.
==========================================================================
"I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean" G. K. Chesterton
Jo Hart <----> jh...@ic.ac.uk
<Yes the reply address in the header is wrong>
Ventrue Home Page: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ven.html
===========================================================================
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Interesting. I only read The Book of the Wyrm last week and was quite
>impressed with it (I enjoyed it a lot more than the main Werewolf book
>which probably says more about me ;-)). But as a Vampire ST, my first thought
>was 'Why doesn't Pentex have a Setite on the Board'?
>I would have thought this Wyrm-corruption thing would have been right up
>their street.
>Wyrm=Set anyone? :-)
While Set'd probably be tainted, the Wyrm predates him by millenia.
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Being of the wyrm has nothing to do with one's intentions, one's needs,
>or especially with where one tends to live. Rather it involves one's
>existence, or how one came to be. A vampire is a creature which has
>been unnaturally animated from the dead, and unnaturally sustains
>itself by feeding in living blood and corrupting it into fuel for both
I've always had a problem with people saying unnatural=bad.
Skyscrapers, computers, and cars aren't exactly natural, but THEY
aren't bad.
>its exitence and its powers. It is because of this that vampires are
>considered to be of the wyrm. Glasswalkers do not exhibit wyrm taint
Especially when they have Humanity of 10 and have achieved Golconda!
>even though they prefer the city. Get of Fenris do not carry wyrm
>taint even though many of them are racist assholes. Shadowlords do not
>smell of the wyrm , and yet their lust for power supercedes all other
>desires.
Except that whether or not someone is Wyrm-tainted depends on the
individual. There have been Glasswalkers, Get, and Shadow Lords that
were Wyrm-tainted.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>I don't think its that they feed in a city, its that they feed have to
>feed on Humans. The act of taking blood from a person and drinking it
>is not a very nice thing to do. The fact that vampires drink human
>blood to survive is why they often have Wyrm-taint. But that is not
Interesting. So if you drink only from animals, you'll keep high
Humanity? No. The fact that vampires often lose control while feeding,
not the feeding itself, is what causes their descent.
>the only reason. There has been talk on several threads that a Vampire
>'loses' his Avatar when he is embraced and it is replaced with a shard
>of Caine's. But my belief is that they do not lose their Avatar and
>have it replaced, but that their Avatar is corrupted by Caine's blood
>coarsing through their veins, creaing the curse of Vampirism. This
>corruption of the Avatar will cause the vampire to have the
>Wyrm-taint. But a vampire will only have the taint if his humanity is
>less than 7.
Explain. You just said that the blood causes the Wyrm-taint, and then
said it doesn't if you have good Humanity. These two results are
exclusive.
BTW, we'd like to point out that humans with <7 Humanity are tainted,
too ;p
>Of course the Sabbat, haviing rejected their humanity and embraced the
>Beast could be considered 'of the Wyrm' and not merely Wyrm-tainted.
>After all, the Beast is the peice of the Wyrm within the Garou, so why
>is it not in the Vampires.
Except several members of the Sabbat have 10 in their path, and are
capable of reaching Golconda.
Lea Crowe
it the first time round... I'll declare my allegiances now: I'm primarily
a "Werewolf" GM, though I also use "Vampire." I don't at present use
"Mage," so I'm reluctant to consider the Technocracy angle.
In article <30E318...@mpgn.com> chr...@mpgn.com "Christopher Beattie"
writes (much snippage by me):
> Yet, I really doubt that any Kindred wake up each evening
> with the though, "Ah now what can I do to make this world a
> more polluted and fetid place?"
Yes, but (media demonising apart) nor does the CEO of Shell or Exxon
wake up each morning with the thought "Now, what can I do to make this
world a more polluted place?/back up an oppressive Third World regime?/
etc." (No, really. I rang them up this morning and checked. Of course,
maybe it's just the season of goodwill.)
Some things, by their very nature, are unwitting servitors of the Wyrm.
Industries such as oil and nuclear power, for instance, must strive hard
to avoid assisting the Wyrm. It *is* possible, but unless they actively
take care to work in harmony with Gaia, they will do the Wyrm's work.
So it is with vampires. Their parasitism, their manipulative nature, and
most crucially their refusal to die and thus to rejoin the cycle, distances
them from Gaia and aligns them towards the Wyrm. By working hard to maintain
their connections to life (in game terms: high Humanity), a vampire can
deny the Wyrm its prize; but their nature mitigates against this.
> And yet, Kindred are in general Wyrm tainted. Why is this so?
Well, you have offered your own argument--basically that vampires are at
the top of the food chain, so all of the pollutants and toxins accumulate
in them. It's an attractive, original and ironic idea, and I like it,
but I'd like to back it up with a more Garou/spiritual approach.
Nature has its cycles, and life reflects those cycles. We are born, we
live, we create, we destroy, we reproduce, we die and return to earth for
the worms to feed on. Vampires, in both mystical and practical senses,
violate this cycle. They take from the living, but give nothing back.
I have a Glass Walker NPC who is particularly venomous on the subject of
vampires. To her, as to many Glass Walkers, the city is a living thing:
it has its daily and seasonal cycles, its predators and prey, its intake
and its excreta. Cities listen and speak; they have skins, hearts, minds,
memories. The homeostatic flow of human life and livelihood is like a
living creature's breath or heartbeat. Vampires are parasites on the
city which destroy its life: to them, the human beings which are the life
of the city are nothing but cattle, to be shunted around, crated up, ordered
around and destroyed as required. (Do the words "cattle trucks," taken
in the context of human life, conjure up as much horror in you as they do
in me?) They stop the natural life of the city, turning it into something as
unnatural as themselves. Yes, parasites are part of Gaia's rich tapestry:
but even parasites participate in the cycle. Vampires do not.
> Anway, those are my thoughts, such as they are.
I enjoyed them very much: concise, clear and original. Thank you.
--
l...@hestia.demon.co.uk Ka ao, ka ao, ka awatea!
tachyon
> It has been said that the Wyrm is the manifestation and
> symbol of entropy and decay and that Vampires are "of the
> Wyrm." but is the latter really so? Now it can be said that
> Vampires are in general Wyrm tainted to a great extent, but
> are they of themselves "of the Wyrm." I would like to
> propose arguments for why this is not the case, and show
> arguments for why they are indeed highly tainted. These are
> just ideas that have been on my mind. Lupines are always
> free to ignore these ramblings.
I cannot ignore this rambling. Let me make something perfectly clear. Kindred are abominations to Gaia. Therefore, kindred are not only tainted by the Wyrm, they ARE the Wyrm.
Tachyon Mania
The Grand Thief
>But a vampire will only have the taint if his humanity is
>less than 7.
>Of course the Sabbat, haviing rejected their humanity and embraced the
>Beast could be considered 'of the Wyrm' and not merely Wyrm-tainted.
>After all, the Beast is the peice of the Wyrm within the Garou, so why
>is it not in the Vampires.
Yeah, but if one's path rating is 7 or above, would that Sabbat
still be considered "of the Wyrm?" After all, this means the vampire is
leading his way toward Golconda, where such "earthly" things mean nothing
to him.
Clifford Low
l...@hestia.demon.co.uk writes:
>I have a Glass Walker NPC who is particularly venomous on the subject of
>vampires. To her, as to many Glass Walkers, the city is a living thing:
>it has its daily and seasonal cycles, its predators and prey, its intake
>and its excreta. Cities listen and speak; they have skins, hearts, minds,
>memories. The homeostatic flow of human life and livelihood is like a
>living creature's breath or heartbeat. Vampires are parasites on the
>city which destroy its life: to them, the human beings which are the life
>of the city are nothing but cattle, to be shunted around, crated up, ordered
>around and destroyed as required. (Do the words "cattle trucks," taken
>in the context of human life, conjure up as much horror in you as they do
>in me?) They stop the natural life of the city, turning it into something as
>unnatural as themselves. Yes, parasites are part of Gaia's rich tapestry:
>but even parasites participate in the cycle. Vampires do not.
Actually, Vampires are the origin of the cities and they direct and
channel it's life into productive goals. Toreador push mankind towards
greater expression, and Ventrue push mankind towards establishing
security. Brujah push forward progress and new ideas. All of the clans
push mankind towards goals which define cities. Even Tzimice who seem to
encourage cruelty, lend the city a dynamic. The fact that all of the
clans represent extremities of human passion primes them for
unnaturality, but this extremity is also what makes their ability to
promote these qualities so much stronger. And these qualities in humans
are what make life, define it, glorify it.
The Vampires may be outsiders of the lifecycle, but someone has to push
cycle from outside, like stirring a pot. It is the very compression and
unnatural quality of the cities which cause vitality as well as
corruption to erupt out of it and wrestle.
Why are Vampires wyrmy then? It isn't because they aren't a part of the
lifecycle, but because they as individuals cause more death than any
other being. The entire species is tainted by this burden. The Vampire
steals life gingerly, most of the time- but the bodies of the many killed
during frenzies accumulate over the centuries- and the Vampire knows
there is no forgiveness. The whole species is tainted by loss and crime
which cannot be recompensed. As dead things, the only things they create
are commentaries on life, not life itself- so stolen life cannot be
repaid in kind. And a Vampire knows every time he or she bites into a
vein, that Life is the only thing that matters in the end.
Vampires are the originators of war; corralling and directing humans at
each other, seeking death on an incredible scale. Humans could not
concieve of a horror like that- a panorama of death and pain and gore-
but a Vampire could. It is an externalized representation of the life of
any Vampire should he/she exist long enough. A wyrm-tainted Vampire
believes this, the wyrm-corrupted Vampire embraces it. A Vampire in
Golconda believes there is hope, despite it.
-CHL
+-+-------------------------------------+------------------------------+
|C| Cth...@tfs.necronomi.com | We enter into life naked and |
|L| fami...@intac.com | howling, covered with blood. |
|I| lucky...@tfs.necronomi.com | The fun doesn't have to end |
|F| http://tfs.necronomi.com/u/cthulhu/ | there. |
|F| fngr: Cth...@lilith.necronomi.com | - The Book of Madness |
+-+-------------------------------------+------------------------------+
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Nature has its cycles, and life reflects those cycles. We are born, we
>live, we create, we destroy, we reproduce, we die and return to earth for
>the worms to feed on. Vampires, in both mystical and practical senses,
>violate this cycle. They take from the living, but give nothing back.
Tell that one to the Gangrel.
>I have a Glass Walker NPC who is particularly venomous on the subject of
>vampires. To her, as to many Glass Walkers, the city is a living thing:
>it has its daily and seasonal cycles, its predators and prey, its intake
>and its excreta. Cities listen and speak; they have skins, hearts, minds,
>memories. The homeostatic flow of human life and livelihood is like a
>living creature's breath or heartbeat. Vampires are parasites on the
>city which destroy its life: to them, the human beings which are the life
>of the city are nothing but cattle, to be shunted around, crated up, ordered
>around and destroyed as required. (Do the words "cattle trucks," taken
>in the context of human life, conjure up as much horror in you as they do
>in me?) They stop the natural life of the city, turning it into something as
>unnatural as themselves. Yes, parasites are part of Gaia's rich tapestry:
>but even parasites participate in the cycle. Vampires do not.
They do, they're just removed from the cycle. Saying that Kindred
don't have a place in the food chain or the life cycle is like saying
that styrofoam isn't bio-degradable. It is. You're just impatient ;p
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
<snip!>
>Why are Vampires wyrmy then? It isn't because they aren't a part of the
>lifecycle, but because they as individuals cause more death than any
Again, not true. The Garou have been doing it for millenia, and on a
much wider scale. Most of the time, Kindred let their victims live.
>other being. The entire species is tainted by this burden. The Vampire
>steals life gingerly, most of the time- but the bodies of the many killed
>during frenzies accumulate over the centuries- and the Vampire knows
>there is no forgiveness. The whole species is tainted by loss and crime
<coughcoughcoughcoughGOLCONDAcoughcoughcoughcough>
>which cannot be recompensed. As dead things, the only things they create
>are commentaries on life, not life itself- so stolen life cannot be
>repaid in kind. And a Vampire knows every time he or she bites into a
>vein, that Life is the only thing that matters in the end.
>Vampires are the originators of war; corralling and directing humans at
Wrong. Though the Kindred were warring early on, so were the Garou and
the mortals.
>each other, seeking death on an incredible scale. Humans could not
>concieve of a horror like that- a panorama of death and pain and gore-
Especially those hunter-gatherers. Peace-loving people, they were.
>but a Vampire could. It is an externalized representation of the life of
>any Vampire should he/she exist long enough. A wyrm-tainted Vampire
>believes this, the wyrm-corrupted Vampire embraces it. A Vampire in
>Golconda believes there is hope, despite it.
Sorry, no. Most Kindred I've seen don't particularly care for war. A
great many want out of the Jyhad, even.
Rotten Randy
>mod...@ix.netcom.com(Michael Lindseth ) wrote:
>>Being of the wyrm has nothing to do with one's intentions, one's needs,
>>or especially with where one tends to live. Rather it involves one's
>>existence, or how one came to be. A vampire is a creature which has
>>been unnaturally animated from the dead, and unnaturally sustains
>>itself by feeding in living blood and corrupting it into fuel for both
>I've always had a problem with people saying unnatural=bad.
>Skyscrapers, computers, and cars aren't exactly natural, but THEY
>aren't bad.
I don't think that he meant "unnatural" in the context of manmade.
By his usage skyscapers, computers, and cars would be natural.
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
Say, what part of the Metroplex are you in?
Rotten Randy
Servant of Entropy
Steve Collington
> Interesting. I only read The Book of the Wyrm last week and was quite
> impressed with it (I enjoyed it a lot more than the main Werewolf book
> which probably says more about me ;-)). But as a Vampire ST, my first
> thought was 'Why doesn't Pentex have a Setite on the Board'?
>
Good question. There is a Malkavian, there is a Giovanni, so how come
the Setites aren't aboard. Send a memo to the Board immediately. Get
one of the Serpent Brotherhood (see Freak Legion) inducted into the Clan
and go from there...
> I would have thought this Wyrm-corruption thing would have been right up
> their street.
>
> Wyrm=Set anyone? :-)
Set isn't old enough. But he is on speaking terms with the Wyrm.
>
>
> jo
>
> ps. My other thought was that I really don't understand the dependence of
> the Wyrm taint on humanity. I would have thought that either vamps are
> Wyrm-tainted by nature (if you buy the Garou cosmology) or not. A vamp
> could have humanity 5/6 for being able to kill when necessary without
> remorse (I think killing by negligence is cited as the example for
> humanity 6 in the Vampire book).. something which some Garou (and Mages
> and Changelings) do all the time - it seems like a double standard to me.
)
>
> Sorry if this gets brought up a lot - as I said, I only just read the Book.
Actually this hasn't arisen for a while. Perhaps Destiny's Price might be
a little more informative but to the fine-tuned senses! of the Garou, many
Euthanatos smell of the Wyrm. Garou of Rage 6 or higher may smell a little
too... (see 2nd ed Werewolf and being 'in thrall'). So perhaps there is a
bit of equilibrium there after all.
> ==========================================================================
> "I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean" G. K. Chesterton
>
> Jo Hart <----> jh...@ic.ac.uk
> <Yes the reply address in the header is wrong>
>
> Ventrue Home Page: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ven.html
> ===========================================================================
--
Until we speak again, think happy thoughts...;-)
Spiral
******************************************************************************"Goddamn creatures of the night. They never learn..." *
* Mr Gideon, The Crow. ** *
****************************************************************************
Lea Crowe
r...@airmail.net "Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon" writes:
> Lea Crowe <l...@hestia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Nature has its cycles, and life reflects those cycles. We are born, we
> >live, we create, we destroy, we reproduce, we die and return to earth for
> >the worms to feed on. Vampires, in both mystical and practical senses,
> >violate this cycle. They take from the living, but give nothing back.
>
> Tell that one to the Gangrel.
With pleasure. They may be more feral than other vampires, but they're
still undead parasites...
Seriously, I don't see that the Gangrel are any exception. I know that
they're keener on trees and wolves and nature and stuff than other
vampires, but they still don't participate in the natural cycle. Like
all vampires, their very existence is in defiance of that cycle.
> They do, they're just removed from the cycle. Saying that Kindred
> don't have a place in the food chain or the life cycle is like saying
> that styrofoam isn't bio-degradable. It is. You're just impatient ;p
I've just been too long around Garou who aren't willing to give the vampires
even five minutes to biodegrade on their own, but want to help them rejoin
the cycle now now now...
(Hey, maybe we should try to create a bloodline of vampires descended from
non-renewable hardwoods and *really* piss the Garou off...)
Lea Crowe
Cth...@tfs.necronomi.com "Clifford Low" writes:
> Actually, Vampires are the origin of the cities and they direct and
> channel it's life into productive goals.
I'll reiterate now that what I was trying to present was why Garou--
specifically Glass Walkers--might see vampires as being of the Wyrm.
That said, I don't buy the whole "vampires are the origin of the cities"
line anyway: I don't like the approach of giving supernatural explanations
for the natural flow of human civilisation. (Similarly, I don't buy
the idea that the Soviet Union fell because some vampire woke up.)
Cities arose because it was advantageous to people that they should arise.
It was also advantageous to vampires, who promptly moved in.
Obviously you can play it either way--I think that what you've stated is
much closer to the official line. I just get ticked off with the idea that
fleas invented dogs (yes, a wildly extreme example).
> Toreador push mankind towards
> greater expression, and Ventrue push mankind towards establishing
> security. Brujah push forward progress and new ideas. All of the clans
> push mankind towards goals which define cities.
Well, we are definitely taking a different approach to the setting here.
> The Vampires may be outsiders of the lifecycle, but someone has to push
> cycle from outside, like stirring a pot.
This I can't accept. I offer you reality as a counterexample. We live in
a world which has active, vibrant cities, several civilisations which have
grown at extraordinary rates; we have the expression, progress and
authority (rather than security) which you attribute to the vampires.
Cities and civilisation grow in the real world regardless of supernatural
intervention; there is no need to invoke this explanation in the World of
Darkness. (I mean, unless you want to, in which case, fine; but you don't
*have* to!)
ThunderFoot
like to throw in another take...
Vampires don't smell of the Wyrm, they smell of death. I believe the
Wyrm used to serve this function, cutting the threads whose time was up.
But the aspect of the Wyrm the Garou fight against is _not_ death, which
many of them embrace and still see as a natural part of the world, but
corruption of which Vampires do not automatically have any.
Vampires are creatures of the Weaver. When the Wyrm reached out to grab
them and pass them on to Oblivion as an appetizer the Vampires made a
pact with the Weaver who spun them tightly in her Web, holding them
where they were. This is why they do not change, and why the Wyrm of
Death cannot pull them ever closer. Vampires constantly resist death,
usually for far longer than any Garou ever could, they are unjustly
accused, their Wyrm-taint coming from the same place that of a righteous
Garou does, from battle with the enemy.
Unfortunately being of the Weaver they never get the opportunity to
remove any taint they may acquire, as it is tied into their existance
with them.
Vampires smell predominantly of death not corruption. Most Garou are too
bigoted and closeminded to care.
--
"The longer I am off a leash the more feral I become; living
.oooO hand to mouth, like a stray petted on the street yet never
( ) Oooo. taken home and knowing not where such place lies, having
\ ( ( ) danced with despair and teased a smile to her lips, but
\_) ) / ne'er mine own... Beyond this lies but death and oblivion
(_/ and... of the two... Oblivion is the kinder master..."
__ Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson __
~~Bale Wolf of the Greater Yawning Dark~~
Daedalous
blood down through the generations spreads the taint, like HIV. And that
is the tragedy of Vampire: that no matter what good a kindred does, he is
still destined to burn in hell, both literally(?) and in the eyes of
garou. Perhaps that is why so many vampires choose paths of darkness.
("I'm going to hell, and I don't want to have to wait in line.")
~~~Daedalous~~~
Catherine Galley
ACtually, I think about the Vampires `Wyrm Taint` in the same context
as Terry Pratchetts novel (really wicked novel) _Good Omens_.
What Kindred call `The Beast` is their tainted nature, the servant of the
Wyrm. But, like Pratchett`s humanity, when faced with the rat maze
the Wyrm created for them, they climbed the walls and went their own way.
I think the Wyrm expected them to serve him because of their basic
nature (an undead, bestial parasite will contribute to the general corruption
of the world, no matter if he doesn`t intend it), but the Vampires,
for the most part, acted, for good or for ill, like people; and the only
word to describe that middle ground is Humanity.
The Humanity `meter` shows how well the Kindred has broken free of their
dark purpose.
It`s a shame the Kindred and Garou don`t work together. If a Gangrel
(8th gen or so) went up against a NExus Crawler, I know where my money
would be [not the crawler].
Andrew Galley (FFRPG: Malia Durant)
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Part of the curse of Caine was an infection of the Wyrm. The passing of
>blood down through the generations spreads the taint, like HIV. And that
Hence, how that vicious bastard Saulot was Wyrm-tainted through and
through.
>is the tragedy of Vampire: that no matter what good a kindred does, he is
>still destined to burn in hell, both literally(?) and in the eyes of
No, and no. Several Garou understand that not all Kindred are the
vicious killers lore proclaims them to be, and it's already been shown
that a significant minority do NOT got to Hell/Oblivion/whatever.
>garou. Perhaps that is why so many vampires choose paths of darkness.
Then again, it might be out of necessity. When your enemies are
ruthless, you tend to become so yourself.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>> The Vampires may be outsiders of the lifecycle, but someone has to push
>> cycle from outside, like stirring a pot.
>This I can't accept. I offer you reality as a counterexample. We live in
>a world which has active, vibrant cities, several civilisations which have
>grown at extraordinary rates; we have the expression, progress and
>authority (rather than security) which you attribute to the vampires.
>Cities and civilisation grow in the real world regardless of supernatural
>intervention; there is no need to invoke this explanation in the World of
>Darkness. (I mean, unless you want to, in which case, fine; but you don't
>*have* to!)
You're right. Immortals won't look after their own holdings in a city.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>> >Nature has its cycles, and life reflects those cycles. We are born, we
>> >live, we create, we destroy, we reproduce, we die and return to earth for
>> >the worms to feed on. Vampires, in both mystical and practical senses,
>> >violate this cycle. They take from the living, but give nothing back.
>>
>> Tell that one to the Gangrel.
>With pleasure. They may be more feral than other vampires, but they're
>still undead parasites...
>Seriously, I don't see that the Gangrel are any exception. I know that
>they're keener on trees and wolves and nature and stuff than other
>vampires, but they still don't participate in the natural cycle. Like
>all vampires, their very existence is in defiance of that cycle.
Protecting Gaia isn't part of the natural cycle? Gaia IS the natural
cycle.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>> Interesting. I only read The Book of the Wyrm last week and was quite
>> impressed with it (I enjoyed it a lot more than the main Werewolf book
>> which probably says more about me ;-)). But as a Vampire ST, my first
>> thought was 'Why doesn't Pentex have a Setite on the Board'?
>>
>Good question. There is a Malkavian, there is a Giovanni, so how come
>the Setites aren't aboard. Send a memo to the Board immediately. Get
>one of the Serpent Brotherhood (see Freak Legion) inducted into the Clan
>and go from there...
Set's a mean bastard, but the Wyrm is meaner. Set wants to control
everything, the Wyrm wants to make everything and everyone suffer.
>> I would have thought this Wyrm-corruption thing would have been right up
>> their street.
>>
>> Wyrm=Set anyone? :-)
>Set isn't old enough. But he is on speaking terms with the Wyrm.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>>I've always had a problem with people saying unnatural=bad.
>>Skyscrapers, computers, and cars aren't exactly natural, but THEY
>>aren't bad.
>I don't think that he meant "unnatural" in the context of manmade.
>By his usage skyscapers, computers, and cars would be natural.
In what POSSIBLE way are they natural?
>Say, what part of the Metroplex are you in?
Lewisville. Yourself?
Mark L. Neidengard
80 columns is a very good thing. =) Now, it's _probably_ true that vampires
are abominations before "Gaia". The question is: _who_cares_?! (Beyond the
werewolves, of course =) Gaiaism is just one a multitude of apparently
conflicting religous views written into the White Wolf literature. In a
Werewolves cum Vampires game, it might make sense to assume that the doggies
have it right. In a Vampires cum Werewolves game, it might make sense to
assume that the Kindred are correct. Certainly, the Vampire system make a
_strong_ case for accepting the Judeo-Christian notion of One God who set
events in motion (Adam and Eve and all that).
Or, you could do something else. Assume that both are at least partially
mistaken and try to invent your own view of why the world is as it is.
Certainly, it doesn't have to matter at the level of the players. All it
takes is for the werewolves to _think_ that there's a Gaia and that the
vampires are affronts to her, and presto. All it takes is for people to
believe in Adam and Eve, and presto. At least in my campaign, the truth,
unlikely to be appreciated by almost anyone, is a tad more complicated.
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Geoffrey Brent
>It`s a shame the Kindred and Garou don`t work together. If a Gangrel
>(8th gen or so) went up against a NExus Crawler, I know where my money
>would be [not the crawler].
You sure ? It only takes that Nexus Crawler a little effort to turn the
Gangrel's body to jelly, and then the Crawler can do whatever it feels
like doing (knowing a Nexus Crawler, something pretty bizarre.)
The single most useful vampire you could have when facing a Crawler
might just be a Malkavian Antitribu. He's more likely than anyone else
to know just _what_ the Crawler might do.
Geoffrey Brent
--
(gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au)
Marizhavashti Kali
> Clifford Low <Cth...@tfs.necronomi.com> wrote:
> >Why are Vampires wyrmy then? It isn't because they aren't a part of the
> >lifecycle, but because they as individuals cause more death than any
>
> Again, not true. The Garou have been doing it for millenia, and on a
> much wider scale. Most of the time, Kindred let their victims live.
Oh, you mean, like say...the IMPERGIUM? Never.
> >other being. The entire species is tainted by this burden. The Vampire
> >steals life gingerly, most of the time- but the bodies of the many killed
> >during frenzies accumulate over the centuries- and the Vampire knows
> >there is no forgiveness. The whole species is tainted by loss and crime
>
> <coughcoughcoughcoughGOLCONDAcoughcoughcoughcough>
You know, there wouldn't be a rule in the Litany forbidding the consuming
of human flesh if Garou haven't ever been caught at it...
> >which cannot be recompensed. As dead things, the only things they create
> >are commentaries on life, not life itself- so stolen life cannot be
> >repaid in kind. And a Vampire knows every time he or she bites into a
> >vein, that Life is the only thing that matters in the end.
>
> >Vampires are the originators of war; corralling and directing humans at
>
> Wrong. Though the Kindred were warring early on, so were the Garou and
> the mortals.
Yeah... Garou too... I mean, come on...it's not like the Garou waged war
against every other breed of Shapeshifter which happens to be out
there...then again...
> >each other, seeking death on an incredible scale. Humans could not
> >concieve of a horror like that- a panorama of death and pain and gore-
>
> Especially those hunter-gatherers. Peace-loving people, they were.
Pain and horror...such as that caused by a pack of Garou who set out to
maintain a minimal population. I mean, the Delirium is there for a
reason. Now, why don't Kindred evoke the same reaction? Perhaps they are
closer to humans?
> >but a Vampire could. It is an externalized representation of the life of
> >any Vampire should he/she exist long enough. A wyrm-tainted Vampire
> >believes this, the wyrm-corrupted Vampire embraces it. A Vampire in
> >Golconda believes there is hope, despite it.
>
> Sorry, no. Most Kindred I've seen don't particularly care for war. A
> great many want out of the Jyhad, even.
On the other hand, Garou dive into the jaws of the Wyrm daily for the
sake of war.
Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead."
Marizhavashti Kali
> I cannot ignore this rambling. Let me make something perfectly
> clear. Kindred are abominations to Gaia. Therefore, kindred are not
> only tainted by the Wyrm, they ARE the Wyrm.
Unlike those paragons of virtue we call the Garou...
No, Kindred are *not* the Wyrm. They are still capable of finding
salvation, so...
ThunderFoot
`each other, seeking death on an incredible scale. Humans could not
`concieve of a horror like that- a panorama of death and pain and gore-
I would disagree with this strongly. Humans definitely can and regularly
do concieve of horrors far beyond any that the supernatural creatures in
the world of darkness can. Humans have far more imagination and sadism
than other creature. The most incredible artist and most sadistic
torturer in history have both been completely normal humans.
Vampires would _not_ invent war at all. It is stupidity incarnate to
make the means of your own survival try to kill itself off. Vampires
would have been very busy trying to _prevent_ the war to ensure the
survival of their own species. When your business is drinking human
blood war is definitely not good for business.
The Garou on the other hand have never been adverse to a little
genocide. By your earlier argument they should be far more Wyrm tainted
than the Vampires. (Actually I think most of them _should_ be, but then
I've always found the Garou method of fighting the Wyrm by killing
creatures it has infected as stupid and self-defeating. The Wyrm was the
bringer of death. Everytime a Garou kills someone they make themself
into a little version of the very thing they claim to be stopping, all
they are doing is deposing the Wyrm and putting themselves in it's
place. They are _more_ corrupt than it is, as the Wyrm is insane, but
the Garou commit attrocities by choice. They are an evil, corrupt,
murderous race, and I'm _not_ talking about the Black Spiral Dancers, at
least they have the same excuse of insanity that the Wyrm has. It is the
ordinary Garou who are the abominations to nature, their sentience
defeating any arguments they make about the laws of the jungle.
` It is an externalized representation of the life of
`any Vampire should he/she exist long enough. A wyrm-tainted Vampire
`believes this, the wyrm-corrupted Vampire embraces it. A Vampire in
`Golconda believes there is hope, despite it.
--
Brendan
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
For once, I agree with Kestrel (on all his posts on this subject, not only the one I quoted.)
Plus, I hate to be cynical (No, who am I kidding, I adore being cynical), but the biggest threat
to Gaia are those annoying hairless apes that build huge swaths of concrete wastelands and
mow down animals with lots of fancy weapons. Everything in Gaia has something that preys
on it *except humans*. Vampires kill off surplus humans, so that's something. In my WoD,
certain more radical Garou (the Red Talons, and factions of the Furies, Get, Fianna, and
Wendigo) have mixed feelings about the Kindred. They're walking dead things, and so tainted
by the Wyrm (to a certain degree anyway), but at least they kill humans.
Of course, you could look at Kindred and humans as having a relationship analogous to ranchers
and cattle: the Kindred drive human society to overpopulation to fatten their herd, in which
case they contribute heavily to Gaia's woes.
Wyrm-taint, with sentient beings, depends to a certain degree, on the observer's point of view.
It also depends on the way the Storyteller and the troupe wish to portray the Kindred and the
Wyrm.
-Brendan
____________________________________
"all my words are secondhand,
and useless in the face of this"
-The Sisters of Mercy
"the dullard sees no eros in fine
champagne; the sorcerer can
fall intoxicated on a glass of
water"
-Hakim Bey
Andrew Galley
(my quotes don`t work; this is manual)
> I cannot ignore this rambling. Let me make something perfectly clear. Kindred are
> abominations to Gaia. Therefore, kindred are not only tainted by the Wyrm, they ARE
> the Wyrm.
> Tachyon Mania
A lot of mortals are just starting to get over this kind of thinking about eachother,
and the Garou should get over the chip on their shoulder. The Garou hate almost
everyone else in the WoD, and if the Kindred and the Garou stopped hunting
eachother, the Kindred (Gangrel in particular) could help a lot *fighting* the
Wyrm. I hardly think this is the time for the Mother to start getting picky
about her defenders.
Andrew Galley (Malia Durant)
Alik S. Widge
have a slightly skewed view of history in order to draw attention away
from their mistakes and in order to support the agenda of the
higher-ups. For an example, take all those while supremacists who say
the Holocaust never happened.
So, it is possible that both the Silver Record and the Book of Nod
don't tell the whole truth. Perhaps some Garou elder way back when had
a scuffle with some Kindred, and in order to get the tribe to support a
war against them, he declared them "of the Wyrm." In the same way, the
Kindred might be after the Garou merely because they see a threat to
their bases of power, the cities. I mean, a megacorp like Pentex is a
great tool for anyone who wants to do some manipulating, wyrm-touched
or not.
Vampires are derived from the pool of humanity in general. So, their
natures reflect those of the normals. If the vampires are what we might
call "evil," it's beacuse the human race as a whole is slanted toward
that end of the scale. I think it does say somewhere in the Werewolf
book that humanity has become more and more a tool of the Wyrm than of
the Weaver. And yes, there are some Kindred who _are_ diabolic fiends
out to destroy Gaia, but the Kindred as a whole is not a tool of the
Wyrm like the Black Spirals. Heck, in many V:TM games I've played,
nobody even KNEW about the Garou. We'd heard a few whispered tales
about lupines, but never really ran into them. I think the entire war
is a product of some messed-up Garou somewhere, not a command of Gaia.
Alik
Marizhavashti Kali
> Most times, Kindred look just like mortals. A 8 foot tall wolfish dude
> does not.
You are awarded a prize for Missing the Point. Most times, Garou look
like wolves or humans, and they still cause unease for humans.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Pain and horror...such as that caused by a pack of Garou who set out to
>maintain a minimal population. I mean, the Delirium is there for a
>reason. Now, why don't Kindred evoke the same reaction? Perhaps they are
>closer to humans?
Most times, Kindred look just like mortals. A 8 foot tall wolfish dude
does not.
Brendan
>On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
>
>> does not.
>
>like wolves or humans, and they still cause unease for humans.
>
dawn of agriculture, seen Nature (i.e. Gaia) as the Other, a potentially hostile
force in need of taming. The Garou, like hurricanes and earthquakes, are
personifications of nature at its most dangerous. This combined with the history
of tearing through villages killing, maiming, and devouring humans has left some
nasty psychological scarsd in the CollectiveUnconscious.
Marizhavashti Kali
> Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial
> taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche. Whatever
So, wait...are you saying the Judeo-Christian deity is "The Wyrm?" I can
deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
> than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
> 99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
> you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
is all in accordance with Garou mythology, so, for any of you mages out there
who think that the Wyrm is just the expression of the Garou's subconscious
guilt, I say "thppppt" :P
Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial
taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche. Whatever
their intentions might be in the beginning, as time goes by it becomes
increasingly harder for vampires to identify with humans. I mean, think about
it...death to a human means the loss of anywhere up to 100 years. That's a
pretty piddling amount when you've been around five times that long, and can
theoretically be around a thousand times that. Vampires have to constantly
struggle to keep their humanity, while their own inner nature (the Beast)
strives to tear it away. In all of my vampire playing, I have only seen twice
where a vampire regained a point of humanity, and I have never seen one reach
Golconda. Golconda is not some everyday thing. Unless you happen to be a
member of the Inconnu (and they really are the good guys they say they are),
I doubt that you would know of maybe, just maybe one person in Golconda. It's
supposed to be some exalted, upper state, like inner peace that most humans
strive for. And how many humans, who don't have to worry about the Beast,
frenzying, or their own dark natures, have true inner peace? Most vampires
don't even accept Golconda as a truth, just a fable to keep the younger,
more inexperienced vamps in line.
So most vampires, who start out Wyrm tainted, stay that way as they slowly
have their humanity stripped from them, and cease to care about the natural
order of life (which they are no longer a part of). Now, I will grant you,
there are some who keep their humanity. And that's why vampires with a
higher humanity don't register a Wyrm taint. But for the rest, once you
start sliding down, it is near impossible to stop. And that is why Garou
attack vampires on sight. They believe, through the trials of experience,
that vampires eventually fall to the Wyrm, and it is better to kill them now,
Lea Crowe
r...@airmail.net "Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon" writes:
> Protecting Gaia isn't part of the natural cycle? Gaia IS the natural
> cycle.
Again, the Garou take would arguably be that the Gangrel protect Gaia in
the same way that Exxon cleaned up Prince William Sound, or British
Nuclear Fuels pay to have trees planted: it's a thin disguise over their
Wyrmy hearts.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Gangrel (I have only read "Vampire"
and the "Players' Guide", not the clan books) to know much about their
ethos, I'm afraid, but my impression was generally of feral wilderness
survivors, not of tree-huggers with a taste for blood. (This is based
on the clan description, especially "Background," in the main rules.
Please forgive me if my understanding is wrong.)
Lea Crowe
Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu "Alik S. Widge" writes:
> Perhaps some Garou elder way back when had
> a scuffle with some Kindred, and in order to get the tribe to support a
> war against them, he declared them "of the Wyrm."
Mumble frotz... but the taint of the Wyrm is a mystical thing, not a political
thing. Garou don't need to be taught that vampires are tainted for them
to show up on Sense Wyrm. This suggests that the taint is as real as
the Wyrm (and, to the Garou, that is entirely real).
> Vampires are derived from the pool of humanity in general. So, their
> natures reflect those of the normals. If the vampires are what we might
> call "evil," it's beacuse the human race as a whole is slanted toward
> that end of the scale.
But, to drag out the old Sense Wyrm gift again, vampires seem in general
to be significantly more tainted than humans. (There are, of course,
exceptions on both sides.) It's not just that vampires are as Wyrmy
as humans; they're much more Wyrmy than humans. How are we to account
for this?
> the Kindred as a whole is not a tool of the
> Wyrm like the Black Spirals.
No, indeed they're not.
They're a tool of the Wyrm like McDona-- uh oh, lawyers!
Marizhavashti Kali
> That's because of the Impergium. It's also because Humanity has, since the
> dawn of agriculture, seen Nature (i.e. Gaia) as the Other, a potentially hostile
> force in need of taming. The Garou, like hurricanes and earthquakes, are
> personifications of nature at its most dangerous. This combined with the history
> of tearing through villages killing, maiming, and devouring humans has left some
> nasty psychological scarsd in the CollectiveUnconscious.
*This* is the point that Kestrel missed... Blaming the Vampires for all
the horrors of the world when the Garou did *this* is sorta,
well...silly, don't you think?
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Mumble frotz... but the taint of the Wyrm is a mystical thing, not a political
>thing. Garou don't need to be taught that vampires are tainted for them
>to show up on Sense Wyrm. This suggests that the taint is as real as
>the Wyrm (and, to the Garou, that is entirely real).
Yeah, but can you imagine the surprise on a Talon's face when a
Kindred doesn't show up on it?
>But, to drag out the old Sense Wyrm gift again, vampires seem in general
>to be significantly more tainted than humans. (There are, of course,
>exceptions on both sides.) It's not just that vampires are as Wyrmy
>as humans; they're much more Wyrmy than humans. How are we to account
>for this?
First off, it depends on who the Garou find. The Camarilla takes great
pains to avoid conflict with the Garou. The Sabbat actively attacks
Garou. This could easily make most Garou think ALL Kindred are
Wyrm-tainted.
Before the Sabbat, Garou most often came across Kindred who were
exiled from one city or another, Kindred who didn't know where their
next meal would come from. Desperation helps the Beast greatly.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial
While I'm sure there are many here that would agree with you, the
Christian God and the Wyrm are not the same thing.
>taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche. Whatever
>their intentions might be in the beginning, as time goes by it becomes
>increasingly harder for vampires to identify with humans. I mean, think about
Saulot and his brothers were well-known for their rampant brutality.
Remember, this isn't always true. Some Kindred identify with mortals
more AFTER they were sired (particularly some of the Brujah and
Nosferatu).
>it...death to a human means the loss of anywhere up to 100 years. That's a
>pretty piddling amount when you've been around five times that long, and can
>theoretically be around a thousand times that. Vampires have to constantly
>struggle to keep their humanity, while their own inner nature (the Beast)
>strives to tear it away. In all of my vampire playing, I have only seen twice
>where a vampire regained a point of humanity, and I have never seen one reach
It's supposed to be rare. No fun unless the odds are stacked against
you.
>Golconda. Golconda is not some everyday thing. Unless you happen to be a
>member of the Inconnu (and they really are the good guys they say they are),
Good guys don't summon up demons. The Inconnu has.
>I doubt that you would know of maybe, just maybe one person in Golconda. It's
>supposed to be some exalted, upper state, like inner peace that most humans
>strive for. And how many humans, who don't have to worry about the Beast,
>frenzying, or their own dark natures, have true inner peace? Most vampires
A lot of humans have a Beast. We call them psychotics.
>don't even accept Golconda as a truth, just a fable to keep the younger,
>more inexperienced vamps in line.
True, but there are enough Elders who DO believe it to give support to
each other.
>So most vampires, who start out Wyrm tainted, stay that way as they slowly
>have their humanity stripped from them, and cease to care about the natural
>order of life (which they are no longer a part of). Now, I will grant you,
>there are some who keep their humanity. And that's why vampires with a
>higher humanity don't register a Wyrm taint. But for the rest, once you
>start sliding down, it is near impossible to stop. And that is why Garou
>attack vampires on sight. They believe, through the trials of experience,
>that vampires eventually fall to the Wyrm, and it is better to kill them now,
>than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
>99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
>you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
Not 99%. Not even 50%. There are Methuselahs with high Humanity,
Childer with high Humanity, Elders and Ancillae with high Humanity. As
you yourself said, once the downward spiral begins, it's hard to stop.
Maintaining Humanity isn't just a nicety to the Camarilla, it's a
requirement for survival.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>> Protecting Gaia isn't part of the natural cycle? Gaia IS the natural
>> cycle.
>Again, the Garou take would arguably be that the Gangrel protect Gaia in
>the same way that Exxon cleaned up Prince William Sound, or British
>Nuclear Fuels pay to have trees planted: it's a thin disguise over their
>Wyrmy hearts.
The Garou that know the Gangrel know better than to say that.
>I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Gangrel (I have only read "Vampire"
>and the "Players' Guide", not the clan books) to know much about their
>ethos, I'm afraid, but my impression was generally of feral wilderness
>survivors, not of tree-huggers with a taste for blood. (This is based
>on the clan description, especially "Background," in the main rules.
>Please forgive me if my understanding is wrong.)
There are several Garou who fit that description as well.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
>> Most times, Kindred look just like mortals. A 8 foot tall wolfish dude
>> does not.
>You are awarded a prize for Missing the Point. Most times, Garou look
>like wolves or humans, and they still cause unease for humans.
I got the point, I was just disagreeing with it.
Wyldwalker
> In article <4cdvob$3...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
> Alik.S...@dartmouth.edu "Alik S. Widge" writes:
>
> > Perhaps some Garou elder way back when had
> > a scuffle with some Kindred, and in order to get the tribe to support a
> > war against them, he declared them "of the Wyrm."
Moiner
Mcguigan (SAR)) wrote:
>Marizhavashti Kali (xe...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: On 4 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
>
>: > Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an
initial
>: > taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche.
Whatever
>
>: So, wait...are you saying the Judeo-Christian deity is "The Wyrm?" I can
>: deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
>
>As I explained in the beginning of my previous post, I was taking this from
>the angle of the Garou mythology...and in Garou mythology, they were created
>by the Wyrm, not Jehovah...
>
>: > than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
>: > 99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
>: > you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
>
>: Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
>: Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
>
>I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
>slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
>the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
>spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
>decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
>is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
>This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
Right. When you're on a sinking lifeboat, don't waste time refreshing
everybody's knowldge of how to swim (or paddle together towards land) when
you can just shoot holes in the hull.
...and if you can indulge a little petty hatred while you're at it, why not?
--
Moiner
"nobody knows everything, SO use everything you know!"
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: On 4 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
: > Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial
: > taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche. Whatever
: So, wait...are you saying the Judeo-Christian deity is "The Wyrm?" I can
: deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
As I explained in the beginning of my previous post, I was taking this from
the angle of the Garou mythology...and in Garou mythology, they were created
by the Wyrm, not Jehovah...
: > than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
: > 99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
: > you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
: Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
: Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
: Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
Brian Trotter
>On 5 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
>> I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
>> slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
>> the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
>> spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
>> decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
>> is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
>> This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
>What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
>about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
>such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
>difficult to strike back at?
How about attacking the easy targets because, after millenia of decline,
that is all you have a chance against :/ Actually, Werewolf does seem
to be prone to hack and slash, either against the Kindred, or
Pentex goons, or the state of Missouri... Just an artifact of
having one of the defining traits be called 'Rage', I suppose.
>Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
I like this retort better than the "be a _real_ roleplayer"
line, but maybe I've heard that from too many annoying people. And
I've even played Warhammer.
Of course, you are correct, Werewolf is not about mindless hack and
slash. It is about _directed_ hack and slash :) Unless you get
away from the whole Apocalypse theme, but then I don't see the point
of being Garou, aot normal humans, or some other supernatural critter.
--Brian Trotter
btro...@turing.colorado.edu
Marizhavashti Kali
> : So, wait...are you saying the Judeo-Christian deity is "The Wyrm?" I can
> : deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
>
> As I explained in the beginning of my previous post, I was taking this from
> the angle of the Garou mythology...and in Garou mythology, they were created
> by the Wyrm, not Jehovah...
Is that really what it says? Wow.
> : Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
> : Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
>
> I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
> slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
> the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
> spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
> decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
> is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
> This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
difficult to strike back at?
Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
Brendan
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
>
I would say more (many more) than several. Take a good look at the Garou.
I don't understand where people get the idea that Garou are tree-hugging
Deadheads. Go tribe by tribe. The only tribe that seems to believe that
worshipping Gaia has anything to do with peace, love, and harmony are the Children
of Gaia, who are generally regarded with disdain and derision in Garou society.
The Stargazers are sort of of that mindset, but in a more esoteric way, and some
Wendigo and a couple of people in other tribes. But by and large, the main tribes
that actually have a major say in Garou society (the Furies, the Get, the Silver
Fangs, the Shadow Lords, and the Wendigo) are all extremely warlike. To the
Garou ***mainstream***, following Gaia means being a "feral wilderness survivor"
more than an environmentalist hippie.
Brendan
>Lea Crowe <l...@hestia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
>
Yeah, but the Sabbat are on better terms with the Garou then the Camarilla.
Their Auctoritas and Ignoblis Ritae are often derived from Native American
rites, both the Garou and the Sabbat (in general) have a complete disregard
for the supposed "importance" of the human race in the grand scheme, and both
are sort of "savages" trapped in the modern over-civilized world.
The Livewire
:)What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
:)about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
:)such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
:)difficult to strike back at?
:)Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
Point for Deidre! I fell out of my chair on this one. (Especially
with Jennifer's recent comments)
:) Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
:)"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
:)is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
:)baby. Hubbard's dead."
Livewire
Marizhavashti Kali
> How about attacking the easy targets because, after millenia of decline,
> that is all you have a chance against :/ Actually, Werewolf does seem
> to be prone to hack and slash, either against the Kindred, or
> Pentex goons, or the state of Missouri... Just an artifact of
> having one of the defining traits be called 'Rage', I suppose.
Indeed, but there are spiritual aspects, philosophical aspects... There
are five different Auspices... I mean, a Ragabash's first response
generally wouldn't be "KILL!" Nor would a Theurge's... Yet people play
all Garou as if they are Ahroun... I dunno, I just see more there than
"Kill everything in sight."
> >Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
>
> I like this retort better than the "be a _real_ roleplayer"
> line, but maybe I've heard that from too many annoying people. And
> I've even played Warhammer.
It was semi-tongue in cheek, so. :-) Anyway, there are degrees of
roleplaying, and all of them are real...some are just less... intense...
than others. :-)
> Of course, you are correct, Werewolf is not about mindless hack and
> slash. It is about _directed_ hack and slash :) Unless you get
> away from the whole Apocalypse theme, but then I don't see the point
> of being Garou, aot normal humans, or some other supernatural critter.
Exactly. Planning, strategy...tactical thinking... Garou should behave
like guerillas, not Godzilla. Know your target, have contingencies, and
remember that no plan survives contact with the enemy. :-)
Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead."
Brendan
>In article <4cjn2h$1...@mother.usf.edu>, mcgu...@virtu.sar.usf.edu (Colin
>Mcguigan (SAR)) wrote:
>
>>: On 4 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
>>
>>: > Besides the fact that the Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an
>initial
>>: > taint to begin with), take a look at the average vampire's psyche.
>Whatever
>>
>>: deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
>>
>>As I explained in the beginning of my previous post, I was taking this from
>>the angle of the Garou mythology...and in Garou mythology, they were created
>>by the Wyrm, not Jehovah...
>>
>>: > 99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
>>: > you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
>>
>>: Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
>>
>>I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
>>slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
>>the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
>>spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
>>decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
>>is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
>>This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
>
>everybody's knowldge of how to swim (or paddle together towards land) when
>you can just shoot holes in the hull.
>...and if you can indulge a little petty hatred while you're at it, why not?
>
>--
>Moiner
>
Basically I agree with M. Kali: Werewolf is about making a heroic (?) last stand
against the forces of Darkness. It's Ragnarok: Everyone fights and basically everyone
dies. The question facing Werewolves is not: How do we spread Gaia's love and
peace, but rather, Are we going to die as warriors or cowards?
David Johnston
-> dude >> does not.
-> >
-> >You are awarded a prize for Missing the Point. Most times, Garou
-> look >like wolves or humans, and they still cause unease for humans.
It's simple. Humans don't have the same instinctive fear of vampires,
because vampires haven't been specifically killing everyone who isn't
afraid of them. In fact they often maintain symbiotic relationships
with such humans.
Alik S. Widge
Brendan <bmo...@hampshire.edu> writes:
> >>I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Gangrel (I have only read "Vampire"
> >>and the "Players' Guide", not the clan books) to know much about their
> >>ethos, I'm afraid, but my impression was generally of feral wilderness
> >>survivors, not of tree-huggers with a taste for blood. (This is based
> >>on the clan description, especially "Background," in the main rules.
> >>Please forgive me if my understanding is wrong.)
> >
> >There are several Garou who fit that description as well.
> >
> >
> >Kestrel
> >The Fairly Decent Dragon
> >
> >
>
> I would say more (many more) than several. Take a good look at the Garou.
> I don't understand where people get the idea that Garou are tree-hugging
> Deadheads. Go tribe by tribe. The only tribe that seems to believe that
> worshipping Gaia has anything to do with peace, love, and harmony are the Children
> of Gaia, who are generally regarded with disdain and derision in Garou society.
> The Stargazers are sort of of that mindset, but in a more esoteric way, and some
> Wendigo and a couple of people in other tribes. But by and large, the main tribes
> that actually have a major say in Garou society (the Furies, the Get, the Silver
> Fangs, the Shadow Lords, and the Wendigo) are all extremely warlike. To the
> Garou ***mainstream***, following Gaia means being a "feral wilderness survivor"
> more than an environmentalist hippie.
>
> -Brendan
The thing is, they were created to be Gaia's armies. Basically, these
are soldiers. Originally the Silver Fangs were generals, now they're a
bunch of inbred cretins. The problem is that the army was created,
given the general directive "Protect me," and let loose. No recon
information, no nothing. What we have now is basically the result of
several hundred years of cluelessness and a desire to do something.
Garou were made to fight. So, they fight. However, they don't always
get the right target.
Alik
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>How about attacking the easy targets because, after millenia of decline,
>that is all you have a chance against :/ Actually, Werewolf does seem
That is not true. Were the Garou to organize, Pentex and especially
the Seventh Generation would be decimated. Many Garou realize this,
and work towards the goal of organization. IMO, the REAL reason most
Garou take on individual baddies rather than Pentex and its ilk is
because there is more personal glory involved. Which gives more
Reknown, killing a Kindred or giving Pentex's computers a good purge?
Which, in the long run, does more for the Garou cause?
>to be prone to hack and slash, either against the Kindred, or
>Pentex goons, or the state of Missouri... Just an artifact of
>having one of the defining traits be called 'Rage', I suppose.
Yes, but using Rage can also be used for the purposes of RP. A Frenzy
can be effective against your lover, too.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Yeah, but the Sabbat are on better terms with the Garou then the Camarilla.
>Their Auctoritas and Ignoblis Ritae are often derived from Native American
>rites, both the Garou and the Sabbat (in general) have a complete disregard
>for the supposed "importance" of the human race in the grand scheme, and both
>are sort of "savages" trapped in the modern over-civilized world.
The Sabbat are allied with the BSDs and Pentex, and actively hunt
Garou. They are riddled with Wyrm-influence, and have repeatedly
attempted to violate the Masquerade (and, by extension, the Veil).
More than likely, the Uktena and Wendigo would find the rites of the
Sabbat horrible corruptions.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Well, the thing is , we don't know how Sense Wyrm decides what is Wyrm.
>I submit that it's based on the perceptions of the user, so if a Garou
>believes something is of the Wyrm, it shows up to him as such.
Hence, why no Kindred with Humanity <7 have Wyrm taint (exception of
Fomori).
<snip!>
>Not _all_ vampires are more Wyrmy than humans. Some are far less than
>some humans. Again, I see the whole Wyrm-taint thing as a matter of
>perception. The Garou think that they should see it, so they do. And
>they are well-known for refusing to acknowledge a mistake in judgement
>once it's been made.
Not all of them. Children of Gaia, Silent Striders, and Stargazers
have all realized the mistakes they and others have made, and
acknowledged them.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
>slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
>the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
>spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
As opposed to engaging in needless warfare that would further thin
their numbers. That's what GOT them into this mess.
>decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
>is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
>This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
Actually, they DO have time, just not much. The Garou know that they
can't stop the Apocalype, but they can forestall it.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>>A lot of humans have a Beast. We call them psychotics.
>I think one of the main strengths of Vampire is the idea that ALL humans have a Beast.
If that were so, there would be no flaw that allows for a human to
have a Beast. There is, in Hunters Hunted.
>Vampires are a mythic creation that blows certain aspects of the human psyche into
>huge proportions and serve as a fable to see ourselves in an exaggerated form. No,
>humans (most of them) don't have the overpowering urge to run out every night to kill
>people. But they all do have the (sublimated) desire to kill, as well as the
>psychological capacity to do so.
Oh, really? I suppose you're willing to back this up.
>I don't know that Golconda can be equated with "goodness" or harmony with Gaia
>in some objective sense. Maybe the Sabbat Harmonists or the Assamites or whoever
>are cosmically and objectively "right."
Golconda is acceptance of the Beast and of the vampire nature. Because
they can control the Beast, this goes a long way towards being 'good.'
>>Not 99%. Not even 50%. There are Methuselahs with high Humanity,
>>Childer with high Humanity, Elders and Ancillae with high Humanity. As
>>you yourself said, once the downward spiral begins, it's hard to stop.
>>Maintaining Humanity isn't just a nicety to the Camarilla, it's a
>>requirement for survival.
>I disagree with the way that the moral code exemplified by the Hierarchy
>of Sins associated with Humanity is either more typically "human" or more
It's based on the general standards of humanity. Go figure.
>objectively "good." It's a subjective and utterly arbitrary moral code, like all
>moral codes; it can't claim access to a "higher" or "more pure" state of being.
Which is why it's a guideline. Stealing to survive and stealing for
profit are two different things, and most sensible STs recognize this.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Well, I don't have the books in front of me but going by memory I would
>have to say that per se, the number one priority of the Gangrel really
>has noting to do per se with Gaia. Now the gangrel travel through the
Large factions of the Gangrel put Gaia's survival ahead of their own.
This is part of the reason why Garou are more accepting of the Gangrel
than the other Clans.
>areas and they have a bond of sorts with the Gypsies (I am not sure
>about the Gyspies relations to Gaia if any.) and they have certain
According to some lore, both Garou and Gypsies are descended from
Lillith's daughter Ennoia, who later became an Antedeluvian.
>features which sort of allows them the "Dances with wolves" but by
>in large Gangrel are not worried about drag nets catching dolphins,
>the chemical plant in the center of the city, and also have no
>spiritual aspect to their outlook.
Many, many Gangrel are exceptions to that rule. Environmentalism is as
good a qualifier to be brought into the Clan as survivalist instincts
and storytelling ability.
<snippage of irrelevance>
>Remember, just because Gangrel can sneak around lupine territory, does
>not imply or infer that they invite each other for tea every afternoon.
Which is why I did not say that it did. The Red Talons, Wendigo, Get,
and Furies all tend to kill Kindred on sight, Gangrel included. Still,
the Gangrel are more accepted in Garou society than any other Clan.
ThunderFoot
`> Perhaps some Garou elder way back when had
`> a scuffle with some Kindred, and in order to get the tribe to support a
`> war against them, he declared them "of the Wyrm."
`Mumble frotz... but the taint of the Wyrm is a mystical thing, not a political
`thing. Garou don't need to be taught that vampires are tainted for them
`to show up on Sense Wyrm. This suggests that the taint is as real as
`the Wyrm (and, to the Garou, that is entirely real).
Garou are _taught_ Sense Wyrm... Therefore it is quite possible that
some of the things that show up on Sense Wyrm are not related to the
Wyrm at all, but the Garou was simply taugh that they were. After all
there are many different types and shades of Wyrm Taint...
--
"The longer I am off a leash the more feral I become; living
.oooO hand to mouth, like a stray petted on the street yet never
( ) Oooo. taken home and knowing not where such place lies, having
\ ( ( ) danced with despair and teased a smile to her lips, but
\_) ) / ne'er mine own... Beyond this lies but death and oblivion
(_/ and... of the two... Oblivion is the kinder master..."
__ Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson __
~~Bale Wolf of the Greater Yawning Dark~~
Ravenskana/Jon Scott Hall
Hello. I'm posting for a friend, who is attempting to complete the
inital Jyhad card set. She would like to trade if possible, as she has a
lot of extras. :)
Needed are:
Arcane Library -- unique location
Burst of Sunlight -- combat
Cat Burglary -- action
EcoTerrorists -- unique location
Gangrel Justicar -- political action
Kindred Society Games -- master
Madness Network -- unique master
Malkavian Justicar -- political action
Mr. Winthrop -- retainer
Nosferatu Justicar -- political action
Resplendent Protector -- retainer
RPG Launcer -- equipment
Soul Gem of Etruis -- equipment
Succubus Club -- unique location
Toreador Justicar -- political action
Vampiric Disease -- master
Ventrue Justicar -- political action
If anyone is willing to trade those, please let me know, and I'll pass
the message on to my friend.
Thanks for your attention.
ravenskana
Brendan
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
there, anyway? There are very few of the latter two, and none are liked or
trusted by the Garou in general. The Silent Striders are usually suspected of
Wyrm-taint, the Children of Gaia are ignored at best, and the Stargazers are
perceived as being ineffectual. They are (along with the Gnawers and the GW)
the outcasts and fringe members of the Garou Nation.
Brendan
>>I disagree with the way that the moral code exemplified by the Hierarchy
>>of Sins associated with Humanity is either more typically "human" or more
>
>It's based on the general standards of humanity. Go figure.
>
And you mean to tell me that humanity **has** "general standards"?????
You've GOT to be kidding!!!!
Brendan
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
Garou there (which, incidentally, is more than I can say for any Camarilla
city I've ever seen). And you can't even tell me that the Camarilla isn't
Wyrm-tainted as Hell (not to mention the Inconnu). I also don't see why
the Uktena (also pretty sketchy on the Wyrm-taint-o-meter) or the Wendigo
would have a problem with Sabbat rites. Most of the Garou could empathise
more with a sect that emphasized a sort of feral, bestial existence more than one
emphasizing corrupt and cowardly city life as a skulking parasite.
I think the Garou-Sabbat animosity is a product of the idea that the Sabbat are
"the bad guys." Yes, their leaders are corrupt, but they (as a sect) have the right
idea. The Kindred are not human and should not pretend to be. The Sabbat
understands that humans are irrelevant as far as vampires are concerned. If I
were a Kindred, I would join the Sabbat ASAP.
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: In article <4cjn2h$1...@mother.usf.edu>, mcgu...@virtu.sar.usf.edu (Colin
: Mcguigan (SAR)) wrote:
: >: > than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
: >: > 99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at stake,
: >: > you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent...
: >
: >: Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
: >: Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
: >
: >I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
: >slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
: >the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
: >spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
: >decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
: >is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
: >This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
: Right. When you're on a sinking lifeboat, don't waste time refreshing
: everybody's knowldge of how to swim (or paddle together towards land) when
: you can just shoot holes in the hull.
: ...and if you can indulge a little petty hatred while you're at it, why not?
: --
: Moiner
Oh lovely. My favorite. The WoD is _not_ about people working together. It's
about the hatreds and the ignorance that keep people apart. Yes, if every-
one could get along, life would be peachykeen. But that doesnt exactly
breed a nice gothicpunk atmosphere, does it?
Just so that people don't think I'm calling the Garou "right"--I'm not. I'm
just presenting an argument from their side. But if you want a world where
the Garou have "realized how wrong they are, and have stopped warring against
the vamps" then why don't you have the Sabbat and the Camarilla make up, too,
or the Technocracy, the Nephandi, and the Traditions all get together for a
big convention on how best they could work things out?
: "nobody knows everything, SO use everything you know!"
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: On 5 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
: > : So, wait...are you saying the Judeo-Christian deity is "The Wyrm?" I can
: > : deal with this... I've been saying it all along...
: >
: > As I explained in the beginning of my previous post, I was taking this from
: > the angle of the Garou mythology...and in Garou mythology, they were created
: > by the Wyrm, not Jehovah...
: Is that really what it says? Wow.
Nod. Yep, funny that, you know, different factions in WoD having different
beliefs, and, get this, they don't all agree...
: > : Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
: > : Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
: >
: > I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
: > slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
: > the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
: > spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
: > decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
: > is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
: > This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
: What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
: about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
: such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
: difficult to strike back at?
: Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
Even funnier, that Rage is a part of the Werewolf characters that many people
tend to forget about. The Garou are inherently violent, and I too often
find this either just overlooked (most characters) or taken to a ridiculous
extreme (Get of Fenris Ahrouns, for example). Garou DO go after corporations,
all the time. Pentex does come to mind, with all its subsidiaries. But they
go after Kindred, too. It all depends on, really, what interests the story-
teller more. And, I find it kind of humorous that you compare Kindreds as
easy targets to corporations who, for the most part, are staffed only with
humans...
And this is an RPG. However, it's an RPG where you're supposed to feel a
little out of control of your character sometimes, and just a little bit
scared at what your character is....you know, gothicpunk horror?
: Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
Marizhavashti Kali
> Oh, it's not so much that I want all the supernaturals to get along. I
> don't, necessarily. But when you have a war to fight, and you're going to
> lose it primarily because you're so busy shooting yourself in the foot
> that you can't co-ordinate your attack against the greater enemy, well,
> you *deserve* to lose...
Precisely. Look at the infighting within the Garou nation.
Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
Sad, isn't it?
Moiner
Mcguigan (SAR)) wrote:
>Moiner (moi...@io.com) wrote:
>: In article <4cjn2h$1...@mother.usf.edu>, mcgu...@virtu.sar.usf.edu (Colin
>: Mcguigan (SAR)) wrote:
>: >I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them slips
>: >slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the dying of
>: >the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires over for a nice
>: >spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The Garou have been on the
>: >decline for thousands of years now...the time for talking has past, and now
>: >is the time for war. They don't have the time before the Apocalypse comes.
>: >This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
>: Right. When you're on a sinking lifeboat, don't waste time refreshing
>: everybody's knowldge of how to swim (or paddle together towards land) when
>: you can just shoot holes in the hull.
>: ...and if you can indulge a little petty hatred while you're at it, why not?
>Oh lovely. My favorite. The WoD is _not_ about people working together. It's
>about the hatreds and the ignorance that keep people apart. Yes, if every-
>one could get along, life would be peachykeen. But that doesnt exactly
>breed a nice gothicpunk atmosphere, does it?
Not entirely my point-- more that it's sad to see the dogboys failing at
their own mission precisely *because* of their own simple-minded hatred.
Not being an admirer of Poodle: The Self-Righteous Whining, I don't mind
that so much, but I do appreciate the irony.
>Just so that people don't think I'm calling the Garou "right"--I'm not. I'm
>just presenting an argument from their side. But if you want a world where
>the Garou have "realized how wrong they are, and have stopped warring against
>the vamps" then why don't you have the Sabbat and the Camarilla make up, too,
>or the Technocracy, the Nephandi, and the Traditions all get together for a
>big convention on how best they could work things out?
Oh, it's not so much that I want all the supernaturals to get along. I
don't, necessarily. But when you have a war to fight, and you're going to
lose it primarily because you're so busy shooting yourself in the foot
that you can't co-ordinate your attack against the greater enemy, well,
you *deserve* to lose...
--
Moiner
Marizhavashti Kali
> Nod. Yep, funny that, you know, different factions in WoD having different
> beliefs, and, get this, they don't all agree...
Actually, I never got the impression that Garou believed that Kindred
were created by the Wyrm... but I certainly got the impression they
considered them of the Wyrm... This is not the same thing, mind you.
> : What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
> : about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
> : such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
> : difficult to strike back at?
> : Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
>
> Even funnier, that Rage is a part of the Werewolf characters that many people
> tend to forget about. The Garou are inherently violent, and I too often
> find this either just overlooked (most characters) or taken to a ridiculous
> extreme (Get of Fenris Ahrouns, for example). Garou DO go after corporations,
> all the time. Pentex does come to mind, with all its subsidiaries. But they
> go after Kindred, too. It all depends on, really, what interests the story-
> teller more. And, I find it kind of humorous that you compare Kindreds as
> easy targets to corporations who, for the most part, are staffed only with
> humans...
I think it's odd you make assumptions about my behavior.
And yes, Kindred are very easy targets compared to corporations.
Otherwise, the Amazon war would be won.
However, the idea of Garou going after Kindred instead of other targets
comes not from reading the books, but from reading messages from Garou
players. For the most part, these Garou players are enamored of how well
they can shred vampires.
> And this is an RPG. However, it's an RPG where you're supposed to feel a
> little out of control of your character sometimes, and just a little bit
> scared at what your character is....you know, gothicpunk horror?
I wouldn't know man...I mean, I'm new to all this White Wolf stuff...
Marizhavashti Kali
> Oh lovely. My favorite. The WoD is _not_ about people working together. It's
> about the hatreds and the ignorance that keep people apart. Yes, if every-
> one could get along, life would be peachykeen. But that doesnt exactly
> breed a nice gothicpunk atmosphere, does it?
We never said that, we only said that the Garou are not particularly wise
in their choice of actions.
So, what is Gothic-Punk to *you*, oh new-face-on-the-newsgroup?
> Just so that people don't think I'm calling the Garou "right"--I'm not. I'm
> just presenting an argument from their side. But if you want a world where
> the Garou have "realized how wrong they are, and have stopped warring against
> the vamps" then why don't you have the Sabbat and the Camarilla make up, too,
> or the Technocracy, the Nephandi, and the Traditions all get together for a
> big convention on how best they could work things out?
Never said that...just thought that most Garou should apply more
intelligence to their tactics. Killing off some neonates will *not* help
the war against the Apocalypse. Rendering Weyerhauser's operations
ineffective *will*.
OKULOS
Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial taint to begin with),
might be in the beginning, as time goes by it becomes increasingly harder
for vampires to identify with humans. I mean, think about it...death to a
human means the loss of anywhere up to 100 years. That's a pretty
piddling amount when you've been around five times that long, and can
theoretically be around a thousand times that. Vampires have to
constantly struggle to keep their humanity, while their own inner nature
(the Beast) strives to tear it away. In all of my vampire playing, I have
only seen twice where a vampire regained a point of humanity, and I have
never seen one reach Golconda. Golconda is not some everyday thing.
Unless you happen to be a member of the Inconnu (and they really are the
good guys they say they are), I doubt that you would know of maybe, just
maybe one person in Golconda. It's supposed to be some exalted, upper
state, like inner peace that most humans strive for. And how many humans,
who don't have to worry about the Beast, frenzying, or their own dark
natures, have true inner peace? Most vampires don't even accept Golconda
as a truth, just a fable to keep the younger,
more inexperienced vamps in line.
So most vampires, who start out Wyrm tainted, stay that way as they slowly
have their humanity stripped from them, and cease to care about the
natural
order of life (which they are no longer a part of). Now, I will grant
you,
there are some who keep their humanity. And that's why vampires with a
higher humanity don't register a Wyrm taint. But for the rest, once you
start sliding down, it is near impossible to stop. And that is why Garou
attack vampires on sight. They believe, through the trials of experience,
that vampires eventually fall to the Wyrm, and it is better to kill them
now,
than allow them to grow in power to bring more corruption upon Gaia. And
99% of the time, they are right. But when the fate of reality is at
stake,
you can't bother yourself to worry about that other percent..."
Well said, for the most part. In our games locally (most of which are
LARP), we run across this "now exactly WHY are we so wyrm-tainted again?"
question frequently in conversation between Garou and Vampire characters.
However, I would like to comment on a part or two. First, the average
werewolf also has trouble identifying with ordinary humans, also. They
don't have the age difference, but they DO have the power difference, as
well as the faith difference. Most humans don't have to contend with
living on two separate worlds (the near world and the near Umbra), nor do
they have to be responsible for their supernatural powers. The Rage that
struggles within all Garou makes them quite a different species (humans
can even pick this up, after a while). Most humans are religious (or
belong to organized religions), but darned few of them have in-your-face
proof that their religion is right. In a human-way-of-thinking, the
Garou are more alien and frightening than the most depraved of vampires.
The werewolves, after all, are FANATICS. How do you reason with something
that has an innate sense that tells it that you are evil/tainted?
Though the Garou are monsters, the Kindred are, too (that is my favorite
part of the game -- trying to portray a monster, from a human point of
view). The Garou KNOW that the Kindred are, for the most part, corrupted
and/or tainted. Nip 'em now, while we can. Also, the Kindred KNOW (from
centuries of experience) that they can outlive this Lupine menace
eventually. Look at the numbers.
Christopher Beattie
[Nice discussion about how vampires were probably not created by the
Wyrm and probably created by the Weaver deleted.]
Sticking my neck out for a moment, I would have to disagree with both
those who say that Vampires were created by Wyrm or Weaver. First
the Wyrm, is a corrputing, destroying, poluting, foul thing, and
Vampires are not that. Second the Weaver is one who wants to cement
reality, to isolate the "ture reality" from the myraid of posibilities
that lie in the umbra. This is not really a good description of
Kindred either. So although Kindred may be used as pawns by both
wyrm and weaver, it seems clear that had either the Wyrm or Weaver
created something, they would not have created Kindred.
Now there have been a few arguents, that have been proposed supporting
the notion that Kindred = Wyrm Tool. The first of them being that
Kindred are not in the normal chain of nature. Here I would suggest
that one should keep a broader more open mind. It is well known that
there exist a wide variety of creatures and bacteria that live off of
dead things. There also exist a wide variety of creatures and bateria
that live in and off of living things, forming a symbiosis where the
host and the parasite each contribute to each other.
With Kindred the symboisis is different, here the Kindred Vitae, supports
the body and in turn the body supports the Kindred Vitae. This symbiosis
can occur with the living as well as the dead, but in the living (ie Ghouls)
the Vitae can not assume the dominant role.
So do Kindred fit in a wonderful ecological niche? Probably as much as
Ramore (spelling?) eels, who attach themselves to sharkes and feed off
of what the shark doesn't eat. They simply feed off of humans, who
through intelligence have placed themselves on the top of the food chain.
They are as "natural" as the mighty morphing people dogs who can not
even breed among themselves without causing serious reprocussions and
who have to breed with two species who normally cannot breed with each
other. As is the case, Wherewolves calling Vampires "not natural" is
indeed the pot calling the kettle black.
So who created the Kindred? I would like to assume that no one created
the kindred, that it was either an accident of some kind, between Cain and
Abel (There was a thread if I recall correctly with the theory that Abel
was an early Mage who caused Cain to be cursed and in so doing killed himself)
or a corruption of some other process that was originally meant to be a
different end.
> Personally I have mortals starting to show as mildly tainted around
> Humanity 5 or so, and showing as tainted as a sub-humanity 7 vampire
> by Humanity 3 or so, but that's an ST's call.
I like the idea that Wyrm Taint is like lead poisioning in river fish.
As Kindred feed off of various Wyrm tainted mortals and other Kindred
they accumulate a small amount of the taint. Thus although low humanity
kindred will show signs of taint, so will extreemely old kindred.
(Assuming that their lives have not been spent mostly in topor.)
| _____ |Christopher Beattie |Tantalus Incorporated|
| ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus @ Key West | P.O. Box 2310|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Division| Key West, FL 33045|
| O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chr...@mpgn.com |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| Opinions expressed here belong to me! | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
Paul Strack
>Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
>terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
>tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
>Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
Actually, seems to me that most of the World of Darkness groups are
plagued with infighting. The Sabbat is ripped apart by Loyalists versus
Conservatives, Inquisition vs Diabolists and everybody mistrusts the
Black Hand. The NWO-Syndicate conflict is getting closer to open war,
and the Void Engineers could jump ship any day. The Wyrm bites its own
tail on a fairly regular basis. In fact, you might say that the only
thing keeping the *villains* together is their common conflict with the
heroes...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll.
pfst...@email.unc.edu | Please have exact change.
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: On 8 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
: > Oh lovely. My favorite. The WoD is _not_ about people working together. It's
: > about the hatreds and the ignorance that keep people apart. Yes, if every-
: > one could get along, life would be peachykeen. But that doesnt exactly
: > breed a nice gothicpunk atmosphere, does it?
: We never said that, we only said that the Garou are not particularly wise
: in their choice of actions.
: So, what is Gothic-Punk to *you*, oh new-face-on-the-newsgroup?
Why's that? Kindred use their influence to expand the cities. Expanding
cities means less wilderness. Less wilderness means less homes for Garou.
But, yes, the Garou go after corporations--Monkeywrenching Pentex sourcebook
should be enough to support that claim.
And as for what's gothicpunk to me? Oh, the usual. Under gothic-darkness,
a little bit of fear, ignorance of the unknown, and tragic mistakes made in
the past that doom the people in the present. Punk-violence, highenergy,
little value on life, burning out rather than fading away. And if I might
be so bold, what's gothicpunk to *you*, oh old-face-on-the-newsgroup?
: > Just so that people don't think I'm calling the Garou "right"--I'm not. I'm
: > just presenting an argument from their side. But if you want a world where
: > the Garou have "realized how wrong they are, and have stopped warring against
: > the vamps" then why don't you have the Sabbat and the Camarilla make up, too,
: > or the Technocracy, the Nephandi, and the Traditions all get together for a
: > big convention on how best they could work things out?
: Never said that...just thought that most Garou should apply more
: intelligence to their tactics. Killing off some neonates will *not* help
: the war against the Apocalypse. Rendering Weyerhauser's operations
: ineffective *will*.
Why not? The less neonates today, the less ancillae fifty years from now.
The Garou attack on all fronts. I've played games where the enemy is Pentex,
where the enemy is Developmental Neogenetics Amalgamated, the Black Spiral
Dancers, etc., without ever bring vampires into it once.
: Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: > beliefs, and, get this, they don't all agree...
: Actually, I never got the impression that Garou believed that Kindred
: were created by the Wyrm... but I certainly got the impression they
: considered them of the Wyrm... This is not the same thing, mind you.
Ok, so that's differing opinions...just in my view (and this is my view),
Garou see Kindred as created by the Wyrm as much as any Bane spirit...
: > : What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
: > : about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
: > : such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
: > : difficult to strike back at?
: > : Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
: >
: > Even funnier, that Rage is a part of the Werewolf characters that many people
: > tend to forget about. The Garou are inherently violent, and I too often
: > find this either just overlooked (most characters) or taken to a ridiculous
: > extreme (Get of Fenris Ahrouns, for example). Garou DO go after corporations,
: > all the time. Pentex does come to mind, with all its subsidiaries. But they
: > go after Kindred, too. It all depends on, really, what interests the story-
: > teller more. And, I find it kind of humorous that you compare Kindreds as
: > easy targets to corporations who, for the most part, are staffed only with
: > humans...
: I think it's odd you make assumptions about my behavior.
: And yes, Kindred are very easy targets compared to corporations.
: Otherwise, the Amazon war would be won.
: However, the idea of Garou going after Kindred instead of other targets
: comes not from reading the books, but from reading messages from Garou
: players. For the most part, these Garou players are enamored of how well
: they can shred vampires.
Yes, and if Kindred were such easy targets, the Bone Gnawers would never
have lost Russia to the Shadow Council of the Brujah, and would not right
now be living in fear of Baba Yaga...
And as for the Garou players, well, you get that in all kinds of games, the
people who think they're bad cause they're character can beat up someone
else's...but I think it's really bad to judge a game by those type of people.
: > And this is an RPG. However, it's an RPG where you're supposed to feel a
: > little out of control of your character sometimes, and just a little bit
: > scared at what your character is....you know, gothicpunk horror?
: I wouldn't know man...I mean, I'm new to all this White Wolf stuff...
I can't tell...are you being serious?
Colin Mcguigan (SAR)
: On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, Moiner wrote:
: > Oh, it's not so much that I want all the supernaturals to get along. I
: > don't, necessarily. But when you have a war to fight, and you're going to
: > lose it primarily because you're so busy shooting yourself in the foot
: > that you can't co-ordinate your attack against the greater enemy, well,
: > you *deserve* to lose...
: Precisely. Look at the infighting within the Garou nation.
: Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
: terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
: tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
: Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
: Sad, isn't it?
Yes, it is. Exactly my point.
Brendan
>Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
>terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
>tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
>Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
>
>Sad, isn't it?
>
I don't know how sad it is in the case of Camarilla vs. Sabbat. I really take the
side of the Sabbat in this one, and I'm ecstatic that the Camarilla is so disorganized.
> Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
>"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
>is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
>baby. Hubbard's dead."
>
>
-Brendan
ERIC E TOLLE
>>
>Basically I agree with M. Kali: Werewolf is about making a heroic (?) last stand
>against the forces of Darkness. It's Ragnarok: Everyone fights and basically everyone
>dies. The question facing Werewolves is not: How do we spread Gaia's love and
>peace, but rather, Are we going to die as warriors or cowards?
Funny, I don't think that was what she was saying at all. Let me check
the scripture....;')
And of course that basic philosophy you stated completley cuts out a
few minor factions such as the Children of Gaia and the Stargazers,
factions of the Black Furies, and some Uktena and Wendigos....
I happen to think that there isn't one 'thing' that WTA is about. There
are a lot ofthemes that can be explored, from spirituality to the
question of 'what is humanity'. The _background_ though is that of
an impending apocalypse, and the question that raises is 'how are you
going to deal with that- and what are you going to do about it?'
And Brendan...
70 character lines, PLEASE! (as Eric gets a headache trying to
read what was written before...)
Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the terminal room
screaming "The system's crashing! The system's crashing!"
-Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Garou are _taught_ Sense Wyrm... Therefore it is quite possible that
>some of the things that show up on Sense Wyrm are not related to the
>Wyrm at all, but the Garou was simply taugh that they were. After all
>there are many different types and shades of Wyrm Taint...
Garou can also instinctively use Sense Wyrm, if my ST's statements to
such effect are true.
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu
|> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
|> >Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
|> >terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
|> >tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
|> >Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
|> >
|> >Sad, isn't it?
|> >
|>
|> I don't know how sad it is in the case of Camarilla vs. Sabbat. I really take the
|> side of the Sabbat in this one, and I'm ecstatic that the Camarilla is so disorganized.
|>
But it's the Camarilla that's supposed to represent order while the Sabbat stands
for chaos.
|> > Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
|> >"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
|> >is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
|> >baby. Hubbard's dead."
|> >
|> >
|>
|>
|>
|> -Brendan
|> ____________________________________
|> "all my words are secondhand,
|> and useless in the face of this"
|> -The Sisters of Mercy
|>
|> "the dullard sees no eros in fine
|> champagne; the sorcerer can
|> fall intoxicated on a glass of
|> water"
|> -Hakim Bey
|>
|>
|>
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
David Miller
> [Yes, and if Kindred were such easy targets, the Bone Gnawers would never
> now be living in fear of Baba Yaga...
I think EVERYONE! is living in fear of Baba Yaga!
She big and she's bad and so are her stats!
--
D.M.
David E. Miller, Harlequin Ltd, Cambs UK
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jax-Ur at The Gathering, Orinoko at Labyrinthe, Obsidian at Mayfest
loonies we are least loonies we become
Alik S. Widge
Brendan <bmo...@hampshire.edu> writes:
> >>Not _all_ vampires are more Wyrmy than humans. Some are far less than
> >>some humans. Again, I see the whole Wyrm-taint thing as a matter of
> >>perception. The Garou think that they should see it, so they do. And
> >>they are well-known for refusing to acknowledge a mistake in judgement
> >>once it's been made.
> >
> >Not all of them. Children of Gaia, Silent Striders, and Stargazers
> >have all realized the mistakes they and others have made, and
> >acknowledged them.
> >
> >
> >Kestrel
> >The Fairly Decent Dragon
> >
> Yeah, but how many Children of Gaia, Stargazers, and Silent Striders are
> there, anyway? There are very few of the latter two, and none are liked or
> trusted by the Garou in general. The Silent Striders are usually suspected of
> Wyrm-taint, the Children of Gaia are ignored at best, and the Stargazers are
> perceived as being ineffectual. They are (along with the Gnawers and the GW)
> the outcasts and fringe members of the Garou Nation.
>
>
>
> -Brendan
Well, I think perhaps that's going too far. I mean, nobody trusts the
Shadow Lords, everyone thinks the Silver Fangs are genetically
unstable, the Red Talons are considered extremists, as are the Get,
Wendigo and Uktena sometimes have Wyrm Taint...
The point is that technically, they're ALL outcasts in some way. OK,
some more than others, but on the whole, nobody really gets along that
well. Like the other half of this thread has been saying, if they'd
actually stop fighting each other and band together, they might have a
chance at winning. The Garou are incredibly divided. That's why they're
likely, IMHO, to lose the War of the Apocalypse.
Alik
Brendan
>In <167cc$1133...@news.hampshire.edu> Brendan <bmo...@hampshire.edu> writes:
>>>
>>Basically I agree with M. Kali: Werewolf is about making a heroic (?) last stand
>>against the forces of Darkness. It's Ragnarok: Everyone fights and basically everyone
>>dies. The question facing Werewolves is not: How do we spread Gaia's love and
>>peace, but rather, Are we going to die as warriors or cowards?
>
>Funny, I don't think that was what she was saying at all. Let me check
>the scripture....;')
>
>And of course that basic philosophy you stated completley cuts out a
>few minor factions such as the Children of Gaia and the Stargazers,
>factions of the Black Furies, and some Uktena and Wendigos....
Exactly-minor factions. No one likes the Uktena, the Wendigo don't
really like anyone else, and for both tribes you accurately said "some."
There aren't that many of either the Black Furies or especially
Stargazers left, and the survivng ones tend to pick isolated locales,
either to watch over them or to seek solitude in meditation. The
Stargazers' introspective qualities tend to take them out of Garou society,
and hence they have little influence. Finally, the Children of Gaia are
hardly the most popular tribe, regarded by the most powerful tribes as
weak, useless, and ineffectual. Their opinions are largely ignored. Their
predictability makes ignoring them easier. Say the Get want to attack
something; the Children of Gaia, most of the time, would look for a more
peaceful solution. However, this surprises no one. It's sort of like the way
that resistance to the Gulf War was portrayed in this country. "Everyone
is pro-war, except of course, the leftist pinko hippie communist eco-freaks,
but, hey, they're *never* gonna come around....."
>
>I happen to think that there isn't one 'thing' that WTA is about. There
>are a lot ofthemes that can be explored, from spirituality to the
>question of 'what is humanity'. The _background_ though is that of
>an impending apocalypse, and the question that raises is 'how are you
>going to deal with that- and what are you going to do about it?'
>
Point taken.
>And Brendan...
>70 character lines, PLEASE! (as Eric gets a headache trying to
>read what was written before...)
>
Sorry.
>
>
>Eric Tolle unde...@mcl.ucsb.edu
>"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the terminal room
>screaming "The system's crashing! The system's crashing!"
> -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
>
>
-Brendan
Steve Collington
> On 5 Jan 1996, Colin Mcguigan wrote:
>
>
> Is that really what it says? Wow.
>
> > : Yes, why *should* Garou bother to think...especially for themselves!
> > : Better to charge around and kill things in the name of fanatic hatred.
> >
> > I know. I mean, it's just sooo obvious that as the world around them
> > slips slower and slower towards Oblivion, instead of raging against the
> > dying of the light, the Garou just need to simply invite the vampires
> > over for a nice spot of tea so they can work out these problems. The
> > Garou have been on the decline for thousands of years now...the time for
> > talking has past, and now is the time for war. They don't have the time > > before the Apocalypse comes.
> > This is what part of the Werewolf theme is all about...
>
> What? You mean mindless hack and slash carnage is what Werewolf is all
> about? Killing Kindred who cause less damage than the corporations and
> such? Attacking the easy targets because the real enemies are too
> difficult to strike back at?
>
> Funny, I thought it was an RPG, not...say... WARHAMMER.
>
> Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
> "Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
> is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
> baby. Hubbard's dead."
>
Y'know, I sense a distinct theme here Deid're. Something about Warhammer?
But seriously, how do you combat a corporation in an RPG and make it really
interesting? Eco-sabotage is good for so long but the corporate intrigue is
more Vampire's bag than Werewolf. After all, if your Garou messes a merger,
he'll be murder on his office staff...
Perhap the Garou should get a vampire consultant. After reading Monkeywrench
I am inclined to think they already have...
--
Until we speak again, think happy thoughts...;-)
Spiral
******************************************************************************"Goddamn creatures of the night. They never learn..." *
* Mr Gideon, The Crow. ** *
*****************************************************************************
Brendan
>In article <197cc$a2b3...@news.hampshire.edu>, Brendan <bmo...@hampshire.edu> writes:
>|> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>|> >Indeed, one thing many of the groups have in common is that they are
>|> >terminally engaged in infighting while their enemies are more organized,
>|> >tactically aware, and strategically minded than they. Camarilla-Sabbat,
>|> >Garou Nation vs. Pentex, Traditions vs. Conventions...etc.
>|> >
>|> >Sad, isn't it?
>|> >
>|>
>|> I don't know how sad it is in the case of Camarilla vs. Sabbat. I really take the
>|> side of the Sabbat in this one, and I'm ecstatic that the Camarilla is so disorganized.
>|>
>
>But it's the Camarilla that's supposed to represent order while the Sabbat stands
>for chaos.
Three points:
1) "Supposed to" and "Does" are not the same thing.
2) Name for me any social structure, in any time period, that wasn't completely
chaotic, when it came riight down to it.
3) Is "orderly" society necessarily desirable? IMHO, the quality of human
life is inversely proportional to the degree of order present.
>
>|> > Deirdre M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
>|> >"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
>|> >is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
>|> >baby. Hubbard's dead."
>|> >
>|> >
>|>
>|>
>|>
>|> -Brendan
>|> ____________________________________
>|> "all my words are secondhand,
>|> and useless in the face of this"
>|> -The Sisters of Mercy
>|>
>|> "the dullard sees no eros in fine
>|> champagne; the sorcerer can
>|> fall intoxicated on a glass of
>|> water"
>|> -Hakim Bey
>|>
>|>
>|>
>
>--
>Jim Burdo
>jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
>"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
>
-Brendan
Brendan
The Get are seen as extremists only in the frequency and readiness to commit
acts of violence. Most Garou have no problems with killing people, and
human lives have neglible value to them. It's just that the Get do it so
*often*, and are always just a little too eager to go to war, and their tribe
puts a little too much stock in equating success with a high body count. It's
more like, "You know, Bob, we were all thinking that you've been drinking
a little too much for your own good. Maybe you ought to slow down for a while>"
than it is "You crazed monster! You killed all those innocent people!" Most
Garou (the Shadow Lords, the Silver Fangs, the Fianna, the Wendigo, the Furies,
the Talons, and the Get) have similar philosophies. There are small
prejudices that flare up (often) into mini-wars, but despite the differences they
might have, a Fang is going to side with a Fianna or a Get or a Shadow Lord
on most issues before he would even deign to speak to a wretched Bone Gnawer,
cowardly Child of Gaia, or Wyrm-tainted city-dwelling Glass Walker.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>>>I disagree with the way that the moral code exemplified by the Hierarchy
>>>of Sins associated with Humanity is either more typically "human" or more
>>
>>It's based on the general standards of humanity. Go figure.
>>
>And you mean to tell me that humanity **has** "general standards"?????
>You've GOT to be kidding!!!!
Let's review, shall we: killing is Real Bad. Theft is Real Bad. That
covers half of the Hierarchy of Sins, and both killing and theft are
rather serious crimes worldwide.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Sticking my neck out for a moment, I would have to disagree with both
>those who say that Vampires were created by Wyrm or Weaver. First
>the Wyrm, is a corrputing, destroying, poluting, foul thing, and
>Vampires are not that. Second the Weaver is one who wants to cement
>reality, to isolate the "ture reality" from the myraid of posibilities
>that lie in the umbra. This is not really a good description of
>Kindred either. So although Kindred may be used as pawns by both
>wyrm and weaver, it seems clear that had either the Wyrm or Weaver
>created something, they would not have created Kindred.
Besides, it's already been stated that only the Wyld could create
things. The Weaver could give them permanence, and the Wyrm can
destroy them.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>>>Yeah, but the Sabbat are on better terms with the Garou then the Camarilla.
>>>Their Auctoritas and Ignoblis Ritae are often derived from Native American
>>>rites, both the Garou and the Sabbat (in general) have a complete disregard
>>>for the supposed "importance" of the human race in the grand scheme, and both
>>>are sort of "savages" trapped in the modern over-civilized world.
>>
>>The Sabbat are allied with the BSDs and Pentex, and actively hunt
>>Garou. They are riddled with Wyrm-influence, and have repeatedly
>>attempted to violate the Masquerade (and, by extension, the Veil).
>>More than likely, the Uktena and Wendigo would find the rites of the
>>Sabbat horrible corruptions.
>When did this happen? The Sabbat of New York are at peace with the
>Garou there (which, incidentally, is more than I can say for any Camarilla
Yes, and they're out for Garou blood in Rite of Passage and, I
believe, Vancouver.
>city I've ever seen). And you can't even tell me that the Camarilla isn't
>Wyrm-tainted as Hell (not to mention the Inconnu). I also don't see why
Not as badly as the Sabbat is.
>the Uktena (also pretty sketchy on the Wyrm-taint-o-meter) or the Wendigo
>would have a problem with Sabbat rites. Most of the Garou could empathise
They don't have a problem with a bunch of leeches dancing around in
imitation of their sacred rites? Funny, I would.
>more with a sect that emphasized a sort of feral, bestial existence more than one
>emphasizing corrupt and cowardly city life as a skulking parasite.
The Sabbat revel in their evil, AND they emphasize life in cities and
oppressing the masses. One of the Sabbat's favorite games involves
murdering a Garou (see the Sabbat PG).
>I think the Garou-Sabbat animosity is a product of the idea that the Sabbat are
>"the bad guys." Yes, their leaders are corrupt, but they (as a sect) have the right
That's your opinion, anyway. I seriously doubt how someone who
preaches liberty AND slavery could be right.
>idea. The Kindred are not human and should not pretend to be. The Sabbat
>understands that humans are irrelevant as far as vampires are concerned. If I
>were a Kindred, I would join the Sabbat ASAP.
Irrelevant? I'd say the food supply's pretty relevant.
Julian Kuleck
: Garou. They are riddled with Wyrm-influence, and have repeatedly
: attempted to violate the Masquerade (and, by extension, the Veil).
: More than likely, the Uktena and Wendigo would find the rites of the
: Sabbat horrible corruptions.
One would think that there were both "gaia" and "wyrm" aligned
tribes of Native Americans... as in the CoC book "Walker in the
Wastes".
- Fred
Julian Kuleck
: In a posting earlier, Colin McGuigan had said, "Besides the fact that the
: Wyrm created the vampire race (and thus an initial taint to begin with),
: take a look at the average vampire's psyche. Whatever their intentions
: might be in the beginning, as time goes by it becomes increasingly harder
: for vampires to identify with humans.
I like the fact in Elysium they describe the fact that Elders
become somewhat insane and/or senile...
: Well said, for the most part. In our games locally (most of which are
: LARP), we run across this "now exactly WHY are we so wyrm-tainted again?"
: question frequently in conversation between Garou and Vampire characters.
The local LARP Garou are the opposite, treating Kindred like
equals... of course, that's what's getting them killed...
By the way... the WW Vampires aren't "monsters" or "horror"
IMHO - more like an alternate race...
- Fred
Andrew Galley
a bit:
Stop knocking the Children. Just because they don`t want to
automatically eviscerate anything that gets in their way
doesn`t make them weak. Speaking of weak, I don`t know where
you got the idea; people assume it, but if you read more carefully,
youll find:
Tha Children of Gaia are the *only* international tribe, and
one of the largest.
They are widely credited with the survival of the Uktena, and
to a lesser extent, the Wendigo.
They are the most united tribe amongst themselves: they are encouraged,
not prevented, to argue loudly with equals and elders in council,
their debates are heated, but this helps channel their Rage into
productive argument and *gets things done*, with minimum
long-term resentment between tribe members.
Finally, don`t think that because they preach peace and love, they
will not fight, or adopt a `please don`t hurt me` position.
Children of Gaia can and will fight. Their wrath is terrible,
and their Rage as frightening as any Gets.
Yet they fight not for the so-called `glory` of battle and death,
but for a time when the peoples will not fight and hate eachother.
In a large part, they fight to reclaim Gaia`s lost children. We,
humanity. Make no mistake about this: the Children of Gaia still Rage.
Thank you,
Andrew Galley (FFPRG: Malia Durant)
Doug Kern
d...@harlqn.co.uk (David Miller) writes:
> I think EVERYONE! is living in fear of Baba Yaga!
> She big and she's bad and so are her stats!
Maybe she's just misunderstood. I mean if you were in topor for a
while, woldn't you be hungry when you awoke. I bet if she met the right
kindred she would mellow down a lot!^_^
Doug Kern
dk...@soho.ios.com
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
>Yeah, but how many Children of Gaia, Stargazers, and Silent Striders are
>there, anyway? There are very few of the latter two, and none are liked or
>trusted by the Garou in general. The Silent Striders are usually suspected of
There are enough liked and trusted for them to call off the Impergium.
>Wyrm-taint, the Children of Gaia are ignored at best, and the Stargazers are
>perceived as being ineffectual. They are (along with the Gnawers and the GW)
>the outcasts and fringe members of the Garou Nation.
No, the Ronin are the outcasts and fringe members. Every Garou counts
now, remember? So few left...
Brendan
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
>
Not exactly. The Weaver creates my weaving Patterns, which become
reality by tking the formless Stuff (Quintessence) which is the Wyld.
The Weaver is Form without Substance, the Wyld Substance without Form.
The convergence of the two is the creation of tangible objects.