[MAGE] A less shiny happy Cult of Ecstasy
Kish
Beau Yarbrough wrote in message <84uetu$2sm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
>made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
>too shiny.
>
>Do people agree with this assessment?
>
Yes. Lots of people.
Lots of people also disagree with it, and I'm one of them. The Traditions
are the heroes of the game, after all.
Just thought I'd mention it.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
Marizhavashti Kali
Beau Yarbrough wrote:
>
> At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
> made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> too shiny.
>
> Do people agree with this assessment?
Not particularly, no. They're very well defined, and they have very
strong ethics. I don't think that ethics are necessarily a bad thing,
even in the WoD. It's also clear that not all of them abide by these
ethics.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
"You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Beau Yarbrough
made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
too shiny.
Do people agree with this assessment?
Now, without going overboard in the other direction ("they harbor lots
of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining consistent
to what's been said about the group in the past?
(And, yes, some of this may well be addressed in MageRev in a few
months.)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matthew
> At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a
> comment made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound
> too happy, too shiny.
>
> Do people agree with this assessment?
That was me - talking to Webwalker (who's played one).
I'd say that for a Tradition so laid back as far as rules were
concerned, the absolute code (and the general feeling that these self
-centered egotistical people with the power to shape reality actually
unanimously followed it) was a bit out of place.
> Now, without going overboard in the other direction ("they harbor
> lots of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people
> feel are missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still
> remaining consistent to what's been said about the group in the past?
>
> (And, yes, some of this may well be addressed in MageRev in a few
> months.)
It (and most of the Trad books for that matter) were just too... nice?
The Verbena were really distanced from the blood and nasty magic they
appeared to have in the 1st Ed main book (applicable b/c TB: Verbena
came out under 1st ed). The rants on other books have been explored ad
nauseum. I could, after going back through them, come up with a very
firm set of objections - but the basic gist is that the authors
sometimes seemed to be trying too hard to make them the white hats.
All of them were happy and cooperative and tolerant. Hell, even all
the crap you'd assume would be in the CC tradbook was missing.
I'm not advocating that the Trads are as vile as the Nephandi, but
we've seen both faces of the Technocracy, we see the two edges of the
Marauder's sword, where's the downside to the Traditions? So far it's
been a few naughty mages, the House of Hekelar and their rude treatment
of the Crafts - that's it.
--
Matthew Hickey aka Tiama'at ][ WS/Soc (H) III - Carleton U
matthe...@hotmail.com ][ "Hold On To Nothing
ICQ: 12954569 (Tiama'at) ][ As Fast As You Can" - T.A.
Julian Mensch
set of Traditions overall and did an extensive post on
just this topic; search Deja for "Mensch Ecstacy Verbena
Hermes Akashic" and it should come up. Or ask and I'll
repost it for you.
That said, I won't reiterate everything I said, but I
will reiterate the general point: the CoX ideology is a
beautiful, compelling and very important part of Mage
for me, because it brushes so close to my ideologies in
real life; only the NWO (my version) is closer. What I
do think is that the Cult should contain a reasonable
number of people who follow the ideology well, another
reasonable number who follow it to some extent, inter-
mixed with selfishness and a lack of personal respons-
ibility and a significantly smaller group who simply
indulge themselves without any regard for others
whatsoever.
I think this has to be conveyed in such a manner so
as not to tarnish the ideology itself or pervert what
the Cult stands for - the idea isn't to make the Cult
paradigm evil - indeed, IMO, it's one of the best and
most 'good' in the WoD - but merely to show that
Cultists are fallible and don't always follow their
tradition's ideology perfectly.
I _don't_ advocate removing the personal responsibility
element from the Cult. This undercuts the entire reason
they exist and makes them Awakened Cathars.
Just my thoughts; dig up my old post for the full
Cult/Traditions rewrite.
-- Julian Mensch
Netdancer
>of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
>missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining consistent
>to what's been said about the group in the past?
The thing that seems obvious to me: That the CoE probably has a burnout
factor that affects members the same way that Jhor hits Euthanatos...an
accumulation of things really, that leads the mage away from what they -
intended- to be to a place where they're lost and consumed by the tools
(Drugs, sex, what have you) that they were using to attain the enlightenment
they were seeking.
A downwards spiral that leads to a dead end, to stagnation and a wallowing in
hedonistic excess for it's own sake...possibly even to death as the mage gets
more and more obsessed with the tools, and less careful. OD, HIV, murder by a
random stranger picked up in a club, obsession with pleasure that leads to
teh Mage throwing themselves to the Kindred, what have you.
Kennet
--
----------------------------------------
http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html - Fight World hunger.
----------------------------------------
Julian Mensch
suspect they deleted one of their old archives - so
I'll make things easy and repost it.
========================================================================
========================================================================
This article will be included in the Another World of Darkness site I
mentioned last month if I ever get it up. One thing mentioned in the
Technocracy threads is that in 2nd Edition Mage the Traditions have
been "sanitized" - made politically correct and virtious at the expense
of a realistic view of human nature. I thought I'd write this up as one
of my first revisions for people who would like to take a darker look
at the Trads in their game. I decided to include info on the Technos as
well; for another look at how to do a dark Union while keeping them
sympathetic look at Stunt Borg's article on the Technocracy morality
thread. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to villify the Traditions, I'm
trying to humanize and darken them. Take what's written here as
obsticles the Trads must strive to overcome, not reasons the Traditions
are an evil faceless orginization that must be destroyed for the good
of humanity. :)
==============
Important Note
==============
THIS ISN'T CANON. I think it's a reasonably logical extrapolation
of how things would be based on canon and human nature, but it's
certainly not what the writers had in mind when they wrote up the
Traditions, and there's little or no direct support for many of
these ideas in the books, and probably a bit of direct proof against
them. Thus it falls heavily on the side of revisionism. Just thought
you'd like to know that.
===============
Council of Nine
===============
The Council of Nine is a grouping of pragmatism - the ordering of
the nine most powerful non-Technocracy true magickal groups in the
world. While the modern council views itself as a unified body with
each of the nine sections providing a different path to those that
wish to take it and working in harmony to protect the Sleepers from
the soulless depridations of the Technocracy, this is not the case.
Like the Camarilla, the council is only a unified political body
at it's highest levels. Horizon Chantry is the only place where the
Nine Traditions work together in full unity under an orginizational
and effective hierarchy. Beyond Horizon the agendas of Council magi
are largely left either to their own devising or to the rulers of
their respective Chantries. The Council does not rule the Traditions
in anything other than name - Hermetic policy is decided in Doissetep
(if it still exists in your Chronicle), not by Sao Cristavao. The
Primii do not _rule_ the Traditions, they _represent_ them.
H:SoH describes the Council as a "magickal United Nations," and the
description is accurate. The Council has no real authoritative power,
no control over actions of individual members, is dominated by people
out of contact with the real-world situation and continually comprim-
ises to meet the demands of the political reality imposed by the
unimaginably diverse Traditions. The very world of Concordia shows
the disharmony that the Traditions experience: they had to literally
divide their Horizon Realm of Peace and Unity into nine pie slices to
reach anything resembling harmony! In fact, Horizon as written is as
much a dystopia as a utopia if one reads between the lines. It's nothing
resembling Ascension. Look closer...
Horizon is reminiscent of one of those multiculturalism posters where
all the children of different ethnic divisions are playing happily
together while dressed in the (horribly exaggerated) clothing of their
own culture. The Council realized this and asked the Traditions to make
"gifts" to each other's sections of the Realm. While most of the gifts
are tolerable, if eccentric, they are either assimilated flawlessly
into the accepting Tradition's ethos or left alone as garish and out-of-
place landmarks. The simple truth the Council refuses to acknowledge
that a world where both the Celestial Chorus and Verbena are ascendant
is logically impossible - or at least very, very difficult in practice.
===================
Akashic Brotherhood
===================
In the minds of Westerners Buddhism conjures images of wise old monks
meditating on mountaintops and engaging in acts of selfless charity as
they search for enlightenment. Of course, this is as much a stereotype
as anything else, though a positive one that PC culture encourages.
Because much of the Akashic's values are based in Buddhism it's
important to form a more realistic view of the religion. Please note
that I'm not trying to insult Buddhists or their religion here, but
I am noting that LIKE CHRISTIANITY AND EVERY OTHER MAJOR RELIGON it
has it's dark side and it's share of injustices. Just like with
Christianity, there are open-minded, kind and pious Buddhists, but
there are also close-minded fundamentalists, and this is the group
I'm examining below.
Firstly, Buddhism teaches the denial of desire as a path to
enlghtenment. Though it claims the "middle path," not true asceticism,
Buddhism is still heavily condemning of sexuality and hedonism to an
even greater degree then Christianity. The ethos of the CoX is not only
repugnant to the average Buddhist, it's unholy. Buddhism also focuses
strongly on discipline and tradition - the old ways are the right ways.
While hours on end of meditation can certainly be used to gain wisdom,
it's also easy to use them to indoctrinate obediance, thoughtless
reverance for tradition and exaggerated humility to the point of
damaging self-esteem.
Buddhist tradition is very strongly ingrained in many Eastern nations,
and the rigid traditions can be very difficult to maintain. Buddhism
places great value on composure and thus is a very restrictive religon
for those who wish to appear pious. Trying to pay for the extensive
funeriary rights Buddhist tradition demands can easily bankrupt a poorer
Oriental family. Buddhist teachers often ingrain the principles of the
religion to younger monks through extremely strict discipline.
What does this mean to Akashics? Well, Akashic apprenticeship is
extremely ardous and trying. While seemingly pointless excersizes may
be used by a wise mentor to instill wisdom, more often they are used
by authoritarian mentors to imprint respect for elders, a need for
strict decorum and to burn away any kind or rebellious instinct. In
a different manner, (some) Akashic mentorships can be as authoritarian
as those of the New World Order.
Another thing to remember is that the Akashics are tied to reincarnation
more closely than any other Tradition and speak to their Avatars more
regularily. This means two things: firstly, when an Akashic mage is
reincarnated the Brotherhood will try *very hard* to draw the new mage
into membership. If the revered Akashic sage Long Shui dies and a young
computer hacker gets his Avatar, the Akashics will very likely indoctrinate
the youth into their Tradition with some authority without even mentioning
the existance of the Virtual Adepts. Why? Because it's his destiny, and it
would be an injustice to Long Shui not to do so. Besides, they'll teach the
youth far more wisdom and respect then the anarchistic hacker Tradition,
and he's far too young to make such decisions on his own. The Akashics
probably wouldn't forcefully kidnap and mind-control an initiate, but they
would certainly explain the Technocracy from a biased perspective and then
leave the new initiate to accept their "protection" and tutelage or risk
the Technocracy and destroying himself through a lack of understanding of
his own abilities.
Secondly, because of their strong ties to their Avatars the past can never
really be forgotten for the Akashics. They've been at war with the Euthanatos,
Stargazers and Wu Lung, and though never officially mentioned I bet they really
have problems with the Cult of Ecstacy. Though the Himalayan Wars ended over a
millenia ago, old Avatars cannot let the ashes lie and often upon meeting modern
Euthanatos or other mages an Akashic will feel driven to war by his Avatar. The
present incarnation may not remember the war, but the Avatar certainly does.
Another dark aspect to the Tradition is their somewhat arrogant desire to "rise
above." While Adepts, Verbena and Hermetics die in the trenches of the Ascension
War, the Traditions' most powerful warriors are content to meditate in their
temples and not sully themselves with the unclean issues of the material world.
The lifestyle demanded of Akashics is also very rigid. Many are celibate and
even those not are expected to be restrained and disciplined in their sexuality.
Attachment to wealth or any kinds of luxury is looked on poorly by the Tradition,
and petty Akashics aren't about stepping up the ladder by pointing out a senior's
indiscretions. Perhaps the Golden Dragons' (Book of Chantries) wise use of wealth
will change the Tradition's opinions as a whole, but it doesn't seem likely.
================
Celestial Chorus
================
Few people have any problem visualizing the dark side of the Chorus. Suffice
it to say that the hostility between world religons does not vanish upon
initiation into this magical order, nor does the strong fundamentalist streak
members of this Tradition have. There's a few powerful cabals of Chorusers
in the Celestial Temple of the Sun that think having an African sun-worshipper
as a Primi is nothing short of an abomination and are working to oust Bantu
as quickly as possible.
The Awakened situation in Israel is as gruesome as the Sleepers', with Chorus
Jews, Muslims and Christians fighting visciously with each other and a few wise
souls being trampled in their attempts to end the violence. As stated in the
Tradbook the Chorus actively plans to betray the Traditions once the Technocracy
is defeated, or at least will strive to assert their supremacy and expel the most
offensive Traditions (Verbena, Dreamspeakers, Ecstatics). Though there are open-
minded Chorusers who genuinely like and wish to cooperate with all the Traditions,
they are far outnumbered by those who consider them allies of necessity.
The Inquisition may not be directly a tool of the CC, but it is certainly likely
that it recieves support from the more fundamental factions of the Trad, making
it a far more effective and frightening orginization overall.
The Chorus faces the same dilemma in regards to magickal conversion that the
Cult does regarding magickal seduction: what is fair play, and what's stepping
over the line? A favoured trick of many CC magi is to use Mind 2 to induce strong
guilt whenever members of the Choruser's "flock" do something their shepard sees
as sinful or inappropriate. This seemingly minor effect can lead to a strangehold
on the Sleepers' minds as rigid as anything the NWO has ever attempted if not
worse, for guilt erodes self esteem and will like a knife through butter.
===============
Cult of Ecstacy
===============
The Ecstatic Tradbook is very clear on the issue that the official
doctrine of the CoX stresses personal responsibility and respect for
the rights of the individual. Largely, this is true. The majority of
Cult mages follow the "consensual" rule - as long as everyone's having
fun it's kosher.
But there's no rule that stops rapists, pederasts and sickos from
Awakening - and what group will they join when they do? Not the
Technocracy - they'd never want to be that monitored or controlled. Not
the Nephandi - most perverts desperately want to rationalize what they
do and avoid thinking of it as "wrong" or "evil". Instead, they think
of it as "free expression" - and this perverted form of the Cult's
doctrine leads them straight into it's membership.
Possibly a third of the entire Tradition engages in unethical behaviour
by the standards of the Tradbook itself. Pedophillia, rape and exploit-
ation are not as uncommon as the more "upright" Cultists believe. It's
simply human nature that this Trad will attract the sickos and power-
mongers who "spit on the Lakashim" as the Tradbook puts it.
Lets look now at the most common penalty the Cult lays against those
who violate it's standards: explusion. The sickos are branded, cast out
and left to do their thing without their official Cult membership card -
clearly this isn't any kind of answer. The outcasts have been trained in
magick by true Ecstatics, a power that makes their crimes completely
unpunishable by authority save the Technocracy - and the Cult is far from
ready to acknowledge the rightful authority of the NWO.
So what can they do? Well, to be fair to the Cult they do do a lot.
Marianna and her group of "responsible" Cultists are activley working
against groups like the Seventh Generation and the darker Cultists, Satyrs,
Settites and Toreador. But how can they truly fight these people? Mages are
so individual by their very nature that they can catch only a disturbingly
small number of mystical sex offenders. Clearly, the only way for the Cult
to truly enforce personal rights and prevent the violation of Sleepers would
be to monitor the mages of the Cult in their daily lives, and given the way
that Awareness works with Corraspondance it just can't be done that way. To
manage such a monumental task would not only violate privacy in a way
completely unacceptable to the cult but work require the Tradition do
deticate a significant portion of it's manpower and resources to espionage
and undercover observation. The only *other* way would be to mystically
indoctrinate all initiates against doing such things: to forcibly change
the values of another individual using magick, propaganda or bindings. In
short, the only effective way for the Cult to enforce their "no sex crimes"
law would be to use the methods of the New World Order - and to them, that's
anathema. Even if they tried, all the young, brash rebels of the Tradition
would label Marianna's crown blockheads and censors and they'd lose any power
they had to implement stricter measures.
What about hard drugs? Heroin, Meth and even stronger, magickally potent
substances - the drugs the Ecstatic Tradbook calls "walking away" drugs. Well,
Cultists aren't supposed to use them - these are the drugs that destroy lives,
after all; they just aren't on par with smoking a few joints. But there's no
_law_ against doing them; Marianna's lot have no real _right_ to tell young
Cultists not to use these, or even to pass them out to willing Sleepers. In the
eyes of young Cult initiates the forbidden thrills of stronger drugs seem
alluring once the old standbys grow mundane, and who are the grand poobahs
in Horizon to whine about your engaging in an act they hurts no one and violates
no one's rights? Besides, so what if they say they're dangerous? That's just
NWO propaganda to keep you away from potentially mind-expanding experiences. If
your will is strong enough to warp reality itself, surely a drug all your Sleeper
friends use could never addict *you*, a mage! And of course once addiction occurs
only the most powerful magicks can break it - magicks that are as unattainable to
the typical street mage as anything imaginable. And of course addicts become
unstable and need more of their drug, and there's very few depths they will not
fall to in order to get it. Furthermore, Resonance taints their magicks, making
them twisted and violent. The addicted mage is a mass tragedy waiting to happen.
There are published Cult rotes for seduction. Surely there's nothing unethical
about adding a few dots to your Charisma before you try to talk up a pretty girl -
it's still her choice to go home with you, after all. But what about using magick
to turn her on? Strip away her inhibitions? Implant the subliminal suggestion that
adultry isn't half as bad as she thinks? Where is the line between using magick to
charm and magickal rape? This is surely a "hot issue" in the Cult, but in the
meantime the Sleepers have no idea how mages can manipulate their minds and many
Cultist don't see much wrong with this.
And lets not forget that the Cult is at war here. The Pogrom demands their
extermination and most Cultists aren't squemish about taking the lives of Technocrats
either. So what happens when the HIT-Marks are banging down your door, your friends
are in danger and your Forces foci is sex? There's no time for a seduction, and
the remaining options aren't pretty. To be fair, a great many Cultists would try
to find a better way, but many others wouldn't. Furthermore, every war effort needs
resources, right? Not just money - that's easy enough for mages to get - but manpower,
influence and connections. There's no way the Cult isn't involved in the sex industry,
however much Marianna and the body of more ethical Cultists may flinch at the notion.
In short, the ethos held by the majority of the Cult of Ecstacy is laudable;
their Tradition's values are IMO one of the best in the entire game. But the
sort of people the Cult attracts are often not strong on personal responsibility,
no matter how much Cult teachings stress it, and the Cult isn't able to control
it's members without becoming everything it despises. Furthermore, while the Code
of Ananda is a beautiful thing, sticking to it in the heat of the Ascension War
is next to impossible and only the most pure and responsible of Cultists avoid
any infraction ever.
=============
Dreamspeakers
=============
Though all the mystic Traditions have a slight Luddite twist to them, I see the
Dreamspeakers as the most anti-technology of all the Traditions. They also tend to
pursue a philosophy of racial supremacy in many cases, almost always favouring
tribal societies (Amerindians, African tribes, Austrailian aborigines) over the
most structured, modern societies (Eurpoeans, Chinese, South Americans). While this
may not seem bad initially, given how those societies have suffered at the hands
of Europeans, consideration will reveal that responding to hate with hate is never
a good answer, and many Dreamspeakers place little or no value on a white man's life.
Another thing to remember is that the spirits the 'Speakers commune with are a
very real force in the World of Darkness, and more often then not have their own
agendas. Giving control of the hearts and minds of all the Sleepers on a Native
reservation to Grandfather Thunder can hardly be considered a good thing. In the
Mythic Age tribes starved to death simply because they offended the spirits of
Caribou, Trout or Deer... or because they offended the proto-Dreamspeaker that
spoke with those spirits.
A shaman does not choose his path; he is Called by the spirits. Thus many
Dreamspeakers are given very little choice as to their membership in the Tradition.
While the 'Speakers likely don't kidnap and brainwash initiates, they do lay
an extreme burden on those they feel have been called and level a huge amount of
peer pressure from the ethnic community the would-be shaman belongs to against
him. Magickal "lessons" and spirit pranks often hound he who would turn away from
the shaman's path to "show him the spirits' displeasure." By harrasment, pressure,
guilt-laying and scare tactics, the Dreamspeakers ensure that the spirits' Call
is rarely refused.
The simple truth is that in traditional tribal societies the medicine man held
an immense amount of authority and respect, whereas in modernized societies they
are seen as laughable primitives and purveyors of freakish holistic religon. Thus,
it comes as no suprise that the eldest members of the Dreamspeakers will go to
nearly any length to preserve the remaining tribal societies in Africa and South
America. Under catchy, politically correct terminology such as "preservation of
our ancient cultural heritage" and "counterbalancing destructive eurocentricism"
the Dreamspeakers use terrorism, guriella warfare and spiritual mayham to isolate
the remaining tribal societies from the modern global community.
While preserving one's heritage is an admirable goal, old Dreamspeaker Masters
and Archmagi walk a much more twisted path to preserve tribalism. Innoculation?
But then the tribes would not have to trust the spirits to ward off disease!
Feminism? Such foolish notions offend the spirits - just watch and see if that
outspoken woman doesn't coincidentally come down with some horrible malady.
Modern Agriculture? Arrogant notions placing men above the whims of the spirits
and therefore unacceptable - starvation is simply part of life; it shows the
spirits have been offended and must be placated, usually with lots and lots of
fanatical belief in the power of the medicine men. Education? Foolish gabber
deemed unclean by the spirits, the way of the white man to dissolve tribal
societies.
==========
Euthanatos
==========
Voormas is not a Nephandi. He's never been through the Caul, he has no Dark
Master and his Avatar is perfectly normal. He is simply an example of a mage
who pursued Euthanatos philosophy without the humanity and compassion to handle
the Chakravanti's sacred duty responsibly. He's every bit as much a Euthanatos
as any other, whatever Horizon Council may claim.
But we all know about that dark side to the Euthies; lets examine the ones
that _don't_ kill. Instead, they "right the karmic balance" by arranging coin-
cidences and shifting probabilities to favous justice. Sounds nice, right? But
because they don't kill, surely they don't need to examine their actions with
as great detail as the killing Eutanatos - right? See a rich man act condesen-
ding to a poor man, arrange a coincidence to benefit the poor man at the expense
of the rich. Simple, neh? But what if the poor man is poor because his hateful
and bigoted behaviour alienated all possible employers, and the rich man is a
philosophical capatalist who worked his way up the ladder scrupously fairly and
earned every penny, thus rightfully holding the poor man in contempt.
But we all know this doesn't happen - the Euthanatos use magick to determine
if every adjustment of fortune - be it killing, healing or coincidence - is
right or wrong. Unfortunately, the Big Purple Book explains with crystal clarity
in many different places how subjective magick is. Thus a bigoted Euthanatos
who believes all Native Americans are drunk good-for-nothings will find, upon
using is handy Detect Readyness for Return to the Great Cycle rote, that a
disproportionate number of Amerinds need to be recycled. Now very few Euthanatos
are bigots, but every person on Earth has biases and opinions that make them
less then perfect judges of everyone else's fate. Technocrats, for example, are
much more likely to get the short end of the Dharmic stick in the Chakravat's
eyes, simply because their ethos is anathema to the Trads.
The Euthanatos just don't understand "live and let live." Ultimately, they
are meddlers, no matter how well intentioned, who consider it their sacred
duty to judge and punish or reward the actions of everyone they encounter.
While many say this is necessary, particularily in the corrupt World of Darkness,
it does tend to be somewhat arrogant; what gives them the right?
Now stop and think about how insular, morbid and psychologically unhealthy
being in a death cult is. The Euthanatos have a sacred duty, and they must
constantly second-guess themselves on whether they are doing it right - and if
they aren't, they are guilty of atrocity greater then most people can ever
imagine. While many Euthanatos are psychologically healthy, they live extremely
morbid lifestyles under _inconcievably extreme_ pressure, are hunted by a
worldwide conspiracy, are shunned by the other Traditions and are subject to
the effects of Jhor, supernatural death taint. It seems extremely likely that
more Euthantos go way off the deep end of sanity then members of any other
Tradition, and the insanity of a death-mage is a particularily nasty. Compared
to the Euthanatos, the psychological pressure facing your average Investigator
in Call of Cthuhlu is realtively minor.
As a final note, the Euthies police their own kind more stringently than any
other Trad. While this makes them ultimately more responsible, it also makes
them nearly as invasive and controlling as the NWO or ItX. Think about it -
this isn't explicitly stated, but it's the only way to police a sect of less
than 1000 people spread around the world effectively.
===============
Order of Hermes
===============
Few Mage players have trouble seeing negative aspects in this Tradition -
they're a bunch of power-hungry, fanatically reactionary politicos who believe
their Art is the only way to do magick properly, have little regard for the
Sleepers and would like to bring about the neo-Dark Ages. That about sums up
the stereotype, right?
Hermetics are secretive, *very* secretive. I honestly think they consider
their magick to be completely above the other Traditions' in objective,
provable ways. That said, it means that they are *very* protective of their
spells and tomes. I do not even think they would be above shedding Sleeper
blood to protect the secrets they believe give them power.
=============
Sons of Ether
=============
The Sons certainly get brownie points for being the most idealistic and
optimistic of the Traditions, and are most often viewed it a comical and campy
light. Nonetheless, in ways they number among the darkest of the Traditions
when treated with seriousness. The Etherites wear rose-tinted sunglasses. They
just don't see the darkness of the world, the evil and the pragmatism. They
live in a happy, civilized delusion completely seperate from reality. To the
Sons, life really is a 30s pulp sci-fi story, or an Indiana Jones movie, wherein
they're the heroes and the Technocrats and other enemies get to wear the black
hats. Only the Sons could create an "X14 Death Ray - Intended for Purely Peaceful
Purposes" as the Techno's Toybox describes. While the Progenetors and Iteration
X may be scientists who've discarded some ethical principles in reasoned pursuit
of a greater good, many Etherites seem not to understand why ethical principles
should be necessary in the first place. They are much more truly the stereotypical
scientist without ethics than the Technocrats are.
"How dare you laugh - I'll destroy you all!"
That's from the back of the SoE Tradbook and is likely meant in a campy light.
Nonetheless, it epitomizes a lot of the Sons' failings. They're antisocial, and
firmly anchor their egos in their inventions - the world thinks you're an
ignorant nobody, but when they see the miracle of your latest invention you'll
be redeemed and they'll all admire you. Of course, when the decidedly quirky tech
of the Etherites is mocked and ridiculed, destructive rage is an entirely human
response. Think about the movie _Carrie_, and how much of her self esteem the
title charecter invested in the Prom. Now imagine that invested into an invention,
and the quote doesn't seem very funny anymore.
Etherites are well known for their Victorian sexism, but there could be
something much deeper behind the Etherites derision of women. All straight men
desire women at some point or another; no one avoids lust completely. And yet the
Etherites are so lacking in social skills that any attempts at flirtation most
often end in humiliation and ridicule. This can lead to misogyny and severe mental
deviance. "She laughs at me now, but once I've integrated her consciousness into
my cybernetic hivemind she'll come to her senses and love me!" Even those Etherites
that aren't this deranged often resent women and don't want them around more for
fear of ridicule and uncomfterble emotions than true Victorian mores.
Etherites are mad scientists. Think about that. Have you ever known a really,
truly _disturbed_ Star Trek fan? I mean no insult to the many responsible fans,
but think about the real over the edge types - the ones who make their living
rooms into full mockups of the Enterprise Bridge, who are constantly imitating
their favourite charecters, who slowly delude themselves into thinking that Star
Trek is really the true future. Everything real is cold and ugly and nasty, so
why not escape into a pleasant fantasy? That's the Etherite mindset, at least in
many of the nastier cases. Now imagine this person trying to raise a child, or
being put in a position is responsibility for the lives of others. Give him the
power to warp reality at will, and you have a tragedy of epic proportions just
waiting to happen.
The Sons have a Victorian mentality and defend the theories that modern science
has discarded. While I see the Convention as a whole as far to Utopian to allow
this, many deviant Etherites probably hold to theories of genetic racial super-
iority, scientific eurocentracism, eugenics and other odious scientific oddities.
They probably even sport a few Holocaust deniers ("It's all the NWO! Really - I
have proof!"). And of course they engage freely in that most awful of scientific
atrocities: human experimentation, often justifying it by experimenting only on
captured Technocrats and other enemies. Remember that there were Sons with the
Axis as well as the Allies in WWII, and Mengele's followers have as much place
among the Sons as among the Progenetors.
Etheric science is fun and entertaining, but in the end it's not real science.
It's not repeatable, rational or grounded in previous principles. It's the science
of science fiction - dramatically driven and ultimately as mystical in nature as
any Verbena rite. Though the Sons' Utopian dreams of improving the masses' lives
through science are kind and well-intentioned, they aren't ultimately possible.
Every Son follows a _different_ paradigm - one might believe in Victorian pseudo-
science, another in medieval alchemy and a third in the physics of Star Trek.
There's no way they can ever truly market their science to the Masses and get it
into the paradigm, because it doesn't follow rational laws and isn't internally
consistant. This sad truth epitomizes the ultimate tragedy of the Sons of Ether.
=======
Verbena
=======
We all know that modern Verbena have forsaken human sacrifice as
immoral and lacking respect for life (and Life). But ask any magician
about sacrifice, and he'll tell you it raises power in ways no other
rite ever can. The ending of life is one of the most powerful changes
in the cycle; of course it has great mystical significance. And the
Verbena are fighting a _war_, and no wars are ever fought with
perfect ethics and honor...
Above and beyond this grisly detail, there's a strong schism in the
Tradition. The Verbena are composed primarily of members of two diff-
erent religions: pagans and neopagans. While the distinction might
seem laughable, in reality these two ethos are very different. Ask
any neo-pagan or Wiccan what her opinion is on blood magic and blood-
letting, but be prepared for an earful; modern neopagans find these
practices quite repugnant. It is not even unreasonable that some
neo-pagans end up in the Celestial Chorus, given their tolerance for
Christianity and their aversion to blood magic. Though the CC (as a
Trad; many individuals surely do) doesn't seem to have a problem
with a female view of the One, elder Verbena surely view these folk
as great traitors.
The elder pagans likely hold their new-age bretheran in an equal
degree of contempt. Neopaganism would be seen as a watered-down
paganism made acceptable to the Technocratically-influenced Masses'
sensibilities, and it's followers among the Verbena would be seen
as weak crystal-gazers, trend-chasers and conformists without the
spiritual backbone to embrace "true" paganism. Furthermore, deep and
subtle within the Verbena Tradition there are surely truly ancient
witches, druids and priestesses - callous, ancient magi who want
"what is to be no more and what once was to be again," regardless of
the cost in human life. To these ancient ones the enemy is not the
Technocracy or even the other Traditions but the entire world that
has changed in frightening and bblasphemous ways and must now be
put back on the correct path by any means necessary.
Verbena embrace the carnal. Everyone takes this to mean sex, but
that isn't all that's implied. Hatred and violence are carnal as
well, and the Verbena understand these too. They aren't prone to
random violence or bigotry, but they can certainly let passions
run wild and uncontrolled, leading to bloodshed - particularily
among acolates and other Sleepers less able to defend themselves.
(Remember the fight with the Horned Man in the Tradbook, under
"Challenge"?) Against their enemies and those who violate their
religion or the Earth I can see Verbena being very vengeful (cf.
Avenging Witch template, again from the Tradbook) and cruel, and
in terms of violence employing visceral magicks inducing states
similar to the vampires' and werebeasts' frenzies.
The Verbena believe in the bloodline of the Wyck and the power
of blood; this does not only refer to the physical liquid. Instead,
many Verbena may pressure or compel Sleepers to breed selectivley,
preserving the ancient bloodlines of power. Taken to extremes, this
process can lead to magickal rape, incest and oppression as wicked
as anything the Technocracy ever dreamed of. I don't see this as
freely condoned by the Tradition as a whole, but that it occurs
would be an open secret among the elder Gardeners of the Tree. Yes,
they say, it is a repugnant practice, but necessary nonetheless. It
is obvious that magick is leaving this modern, sanitary world, and
sometimes extreme measures must be taken to preserve it. Anne Rice's
excelent horror series, Lives of the Mayfair Witches, gives disturbing
examples of this gruesome practice of "breeding magick".
Finally, a note about the Verbena paradigm overall. The emphasis of
Fate is strong with the Verbena, and in the WoD belief defines reality.
It's thus tragic that the Verbena believe so strongly in an invisible,
supernatural force guiding our lives - because their belief gives Fate
power. It's clear that Fate is a power in the WoD outside Mage
(Fatalism, Soothsay, Dan, Oath, etc.) and that to some extent it does
affect the lives of every person in the WoD. But free will is also
clearly apparent, thanks to groups like the Cult of Ecstacy and the New
World Order. But the Verbena work to slowly bring that balance closer
to Fate everyday - and thus institute a form of supernatural influence
over the Masses greater than any vampire conspiracy or Technocracy ever
could.
==============
Virtual Adepts
==============
The thing to keep in mind when viewing the Virtual Adepts is
that they're, well, hackers. Their Achilles heel is their lack
of maturity, responsibility and discipline. Put yourself in their
shoes. You're fourteen years old, antisocial and a computer
genius. Some guy comes to you and explains that he's a mage,
there's a war for reality and that conspiracy from The X-Files
is for real. Seems a little whacked, but you can deal - especially
'cause he'll teach you to "hack reality" like he can. Now imagine
you have the power to alter reality at whim and an attitude that
just won't quit. You finally have a chance to break all the
rules, stick it to everyone you hate and generally act as
stupidly irresponsible as you want. It seems likely that the
Adepts have the highest initiate turnover-rate of any Tradition,
because they tend to do really, _really_ stupid things.
Now, we all know the "hackers' ethic," but we also know how
strongly they stick to their values when captured by the FBI or
other police agencies. Cooperate fully, anyone? Of course, the
NWO plays a considerably harder game then the FBI, and many Adepts
become completely changed people once the Ascension War touches
their lives. They might not be able to fight (or even find) the
Technocracy, but they can fight The Man easily. Many bitter Adepts
who've lost their friends or parents to the Ascension War are
complete anarchists, using magick and hacking to ruin innocent
businessmen and civil servants' lives - like many teens, taking
out their anger on the easiest target to hit.
Not all VA anarchists are motivated by bitterness. Many newer
Adepts are such strong ideological anarchists that they reject
even the leadership of their own Tradition, spreading chaos in
their path. _Digital Web 2.0_ brings out this element of the
Tradition very effectivley. Of course, some Adepts are crackers,
getting a sick thrill out of destroying any computer system they
can hack into, just like Sleeper crackers. Still, these devaints
are ostracized by their own Tradition and end up with few friends.
Forget Chorusers and Etherites - hands down Adepts are the most
sexist Tradition, largely because of their maturity level. Girls
aren't regarded as incompetant or unfit to be mages, but they are
regarded as a chance to "score". Being antisocial, many Adepts
seek to avoid women out of self confidance issues; others seek
them out solely online, proceeding to badger and harrass them on
the web. Female Adepts find this less of a problem then female
Chorusers or Etherites as they can simply choose an androgynous
handle and most Adepts assume their men, but it's hard on the
Sleeper women that become targets of an Adept's "affection" or
have to try to work with them in real life.
It's obvious that Adepts are the most elitest Tradition; their
entire culture is based on "Eliteness." Some idealists speak of
making everyone "Elite," but if that was really their intention
would not they have chosen a different word? In point of fact,
most Adepts are almost pathetically glad to have something that
makes them "special" and distinct from the masses, and much of
their culture is based on this ego trip.
Likewise, their entire system of Tradition status is basically
a high school popularity contest. This can be _very_ hard,
emotionally speaking, on those Adept programmers, thinkers and
designers who aren't as stylish and up on net.culture as the
webspinners and are thus regarded as Lame, despite the fact that
they do more to bring about the Tradition's Ascension then any
of it's other members.
======================
Joining the Traditions
======================
There are some good reasons to join the Trads - wanting freedom of
belief, wanting to explore your own inner spirituality and search
for enlightenment, wanting the ability to truly help the world while
unfettered by a system or bureaucracy. But this document isn't about
the good stuff, and many, many magi join the Traditions for all the
wrong reasons.
Firstly, realize how much larger the Trads are than any other mystick
group. Add the membership of the Technocracy, Crafts, Marauders,
Neffies and Orphans together and you might - *might* - equal the
numbers of the Council of Nine. The Traditions obviously have one
hell of a recruitment program; lets have a look at the factors that
make the Traditions so desirable to the dark side of human nature.
1) Freedom
Lets face it - OoH aside, the Traditions don't really have any
system of legal enforcement. There is no Damage Control or Reality
Police in the Council. Only the Euthanatos and Hermetics have any
true kind of stricture on the uses of the immense power that magick
grants.
A Tradmage lives pretty good when all is said and done. She can
spend her time however she likes and can use magick however she
pleases. There are no really effective means among the Traditions
of preventing Tradmagi from wallowing in degenerate luxury, abusing
Sleepers or using magick for all kinds of sordid acts from immature
pranks (VAs, anyone?) to mystical power-brokering (Hermetics) to
magick-aided sex crimes. Because mages are so rare (6000 TOTAL in
canon, and usually not more than 1 per 100,000 in people's house
rules) they can secrete themselves away somewhere distant and live
in outrageous luxury.
2) Super Powers
Lets face it. You train for *years* as a Technocrat and you can
then perform a number of subtle Procedures that seem next to
indistinguisable from other scientific processes with equipment
and preparation. Or, you join the Trads and they'll teach you to
fly, throw lightning bolts, hack reality, build teleportation gates
and perform martial arts moves that leave Bruce Lee drooling. Yes,
it's vulgar, but between Sanctums, Chantries, the Umbra and the
occasional Paradox binge Tradmagi still get plenty of chances to
play Superman.
3) Elitism and Exotic Allure
The Traditions tell their initiates that they're the Enlightened
few, the last best hope of mankind. Because of their Awakened Avatars
they possess wisdom far beyond the Sleepers - the callow masses who
must be guided and taught. Unlike the Technos, who stress that being
a willworker doesn't make one any "better" than Sleepers, the Trads
philosophy openly states that mages are more enlightened then Sleepers
and form an extremely selective elite.
And the Traditions are just _cool_. They're trendy, mysterous and
alluring. If IRL you had the oppurtunity to sit in on a truly secret,
centuries-old Masonic rite, wouldn't that pique your intrest? What if
you'd just had true experience with the supernatural, knew it was real
and were offered initation into a Lodge you knew to be supernatural?
Regardless of who's right, Tradition magick is flashy, strange and
downright _fun_. It seems strange to us as normal people, but once
Awakening has completely blown someone's mind, the exotic nature of
the Verbena's skyclan rituals or the Etherites' wierd science may
be very appealing. Face it - the Trads are hip, and that goes a lot
further then most people think it would.
4) Moral Righteousness
Regardless of who's really right, the Trads come off looking a lot
nicer than the Black Hats and Mirrorshades at first glance, and nobody
hands out free copies of The Guide to the Technocracy upon Awakening.
Thus, the newly Awakened mage hears the Technos described as "the NSA,
except worse" and "like the conspiracy on the X-Files." The Nephandi
just aren't an option to anyone remotely normal; ditto the Marauders.
The Crafts are secretive and don't recruit. And then there's the Trads.
They just scream "we're all the virtues of Liberal 20th Century Ethics
personified!" They _seem_ liberal, tolerant, humanitarian, responsible
all around nice guys. Sure, the Euthanatos are a little creepy, but we
have to tolerate and learn from differing views, right? And best of all,
they're the underdog. We all know the underdog is always the good guy,
right?
And it's so much easier to feel virtious as a rebel. All you have to
do is denounce how bad the other contenders are: the Technocrats want to
oppress all free will! The Nephandi worship Cthuhlu! The Marauders are
all psychopaths! Awakening most often happens early in life, and the
Traditions' ethos caters to adolescent rebellion like a fish to water.
Everybody hates The Man, after all, and the Trads offer their initiates
a chance to kick Authority in the balls and claim the moral high ground
while doing so. Whether or not that's actually the best thing to do in
the long run, it's certainly fun!
5) Lack of Duties and Obligations
Despite the Trads' seeming virtue when compared with the Technocracy,
Nephandi, Marauders and Crafts they really don't ask a lot of their
recruits. You can elect to fight the Ascension War and try to enlighten
the Masses... or not. The Trads aren't the soulless, authoritarian
Technocracy after all - they don't have a central authority assigning
missions down the ranks. If Jane Verbena feels her personal Ascension
would be best served by an extended Hawaiian vacation (with magick to
take care of all those annoying temporal concerns like money) she's
free to make that choice and she won't have to worry about her local
Gilledian coming by and ordering her back to the Labyrinth to serve her
Dark Masters.
6) Normalicy and Training
One thing the Orphan's Survival Guide gets across is just how scary
and life-shattering Awakening is. The new mage has no idea if she's
a mutant, a god or simply going insane. She's seeing thing no one else
sees, has voices in her head (Avatar) and is being pursued by the Men
in Black. Even worse she may have bumped into vampires, ghosts and
assorted other supernatural wierdness. The Traditions look pretty warm
and inviting at this point for one reason: they can give a coherant,
logical explanation as to What The Flying Fuck Is Going On Here and How
a Modicum of Sanity Can be Restored to My Life. The Traditions can train
their initiates to use magick in a controllable manner, explain Avatar
manefestations and explain what the Technocracy and the other races are
up to. After the extremely unsettling experience of Awakening alone, many
mages cling to Tradition ethos like a liferaft in a dark and turbulent
sea, and it really isn't hard to empathize with their motives.
====================
Concluding Statement
====================
I don't want, contrary to what some posters may believe, to turn
the Traditions into cartoon-evil black hats for my heroic Technocrats
to blow away. This isn't a "the Traditions are the bad guys" argument;
it isn't any kind of argument at all. In my eyes, despite all this,
the Traditions remain the heros in my Mage games even though I like to
give the Technocracy a lighter shade as well.
Why this, then? Well, for one, the Trads shouldn't be good guys by
fiat; they should be heroes by charecter and effort - and that requires
that they be subject to human weaknesses. The Ascension War is as real
as any war, and no side stays lily-white in a war - ever. The streets
of the WoD are hellish and dehumanizing, the people scummy and
repugnant, and there isn't any good reason the Traditions should be
able to easily rise above all that.
When you set out to play a hero within one of the Traditions as I
desribe them here (and not every player charecter has to be a hero,
but it's certainly an option) you have to do more than simply blow
up Technocrats and foil the evil plots of the Nephandi. You have to
look within your own Tradition and have the conviction to hold to
hold to your beliefs in the face of corruption within, and then try
to find some way to make it better. That's a much harder, bitterer
and ultimately more human confict then blowin' shit up. And maybe,
with blood and sweat and tears your make you Trad a bit of a nicer
orginization. But you don't start out with the white hat by virtue
of Tradition membership - you have to earn it.
And of course this opens up the floor for some truly wicked
Tradition antagonists - or evil Tradition PCs, of course. The Technos,
good or bad, are a shadowy conspiracy that rarely comes directly
into play on a charecter interaction level. The Traditions are the
core of the Mage game, and the conflict to purge corruption within
them adds another, more personal facet to the game.
Ok, that's it. Any comments, suggestions, ideas, flames?
-- Julian Mensch
============================================================================
-- Julian Mensch
Webwalker
> At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
> made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> too shiny.
> Do people agree with this assessment?
Yep. Completely.
> Now, without going overboard in the other direction ("they harbor lots
> of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
> missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining consistent
> to what's been said about the group in the past?
The CoX uses drugs as foci in a _major_ way. Same with sex. Yet there
doesn't seem to be much talk in any book about burnout factors, about
Cultists becoming addicted to their drugs, etc. Having friends who are
either addicts or recovering addicts, I can see how a very large
percentage of Cultists would become hopelessly addicted to their drugs of
choice. A Cultist who uses speed to replenish his Quint would not only
get the effect of the replenishment of Quint, but coupled with the speed.
IMO, that would be something that a Cultist could _easily_ become addicted
to. To the point of searching out nodes (Caerns, in Werewolf speak) and
raiding them just for the high.
I can also see a Cultist becoming "addicted" to sex, if the sex is
coupled with a pleasurable magical effect, for many of the same reasons
above.
In a game I'm about to start running, I've decided to split the
CoX into two factions: the Seers of Chronos, aka the "Mature" CoX. The
group which does not allow the "degenerate Cultists" into their Tradition,
and the CoX, who are much more diverse than the Seers, but much more of
them are hopelessly addicted to something. (not that the seers are immune
to addiction, mind you. they just cope with it better, and have very
strict recruitment policies. ie: no PC will be a Seer to begin with,
though some may possibly be recruited later on.)
> (And, yes, some of this may well be addressed in MageRev in a few
> months.)
I hope so. I really hope so.
--
"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
-- Thomas A. Edison
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
Marizhavashti Kali
Julian Mensch wrote:
>
> I _don't_ advocate removing the personal responsibility
> element from the Cult. This undercuts the entire reason
> they exist and makes them Awakened Cathars.
I agree. One element of magic use is discipline, and without discipline,
you have no magic. A bunch of awakened sybarites wouldn't really have
much drive or purpose, would they?
mdf
<snip vast majority of excellent effort>
While I disagree with a few assertions in your fine work, those are largely due to
personal assumptions I have made concerning Mage, assumptions that wander
deliberately away from canon. OTOH, in my opinion you only drop the ball with this
paragraph:
> Etheric science is fun and entertaining, but in the end it's not real science.
> It's not repeatable, rational or grounded in previous principles. It's the science
> of science fiction - dramatically driven and ultimately as mystical in nature as
> any Verbena rite. Though the Sons' Utopian dreams of improving the masses' lives
> through science are kind and well-intentioned, they aren't ultimately possible.
> Every Son follows a _different_ paradigm - one might believe in Victorian pseudo-
> science, another in medieval alchemy and a third in the physics of Star Trek.
> There's no way they can ever truly market their science to the Masses and get it
> into the paradigm, because it doesn't follow rational laws and isn't internally
> consistant. This sad truth epitomizes the ultimate tragedy of the Sons of Ether.
I strongly disagree, to the point where I wonder if the above was part of your
"warning: revisionism" disclaimer.
The "science of science fiction" is internally consistant, repeatable, rational
etcetera _within the reality presented_ in the story [if it is a well-written story].
Each Son of Ether is a sci-fi novel of his or her own, so to speak. If their reality
as envisioned "sells" to the Masses, it becomes as "scientific" as Technocratic science
is [in the WoD]. Each Etherite doesn't "follow a different paradigm" per se, they
follow variations on a set of common understandings, just like the members of other
Traditions, only a bit more so. They HAVE "market(ed) their science to the Masses"
successfully, according to canon. They even seem to have done so collectively, which
only makes sense to me; it only figures that Etherites with very similar overlapping
ideas would band together semi-permanently.
It feels like you let a bit of RL trip up your commentary on the Sons
of Ether, frankly. Shame on you. ;)
Well done, otherwise...
mdf
--
"'Petaflop computers certainly make you salivate,' says Stephen Mayo, a protein-folding expert at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena."
-----Real quote taken from InSCIght, a serious Internet science news magazine.
mdf
words. Here it is again. Note that one doesn't have to touch the CoX as
written, IMO, to make them scary as hell to the average comfortable 1st
World suburbanite, i.e. most of us here.
*************************************************************************
"Who the hell are you," shrieked Alexander at the intruder sitting in
the shadows. "Why are you DOING this to me??"
"Because you asked me to, Mr. Somerville," spoke a voice just as
tenebrous as the man behind it, a man little more than a wild-haired
silhouette sitting upon Alexander's teakwood piano bench. The glowing
miasma of Manhattan flowed from the picture window and around the
stranger like a brook around a black river stone. Alexander watched as
the form lit a thin cigarillo, his attention helplessly caught in a net
that had been drawing around him for the last six days.
The agonizing reminder of his week to date broke the web for a
moment.
"Asked you? I asked you?!" Alexander tore raggedly at his graying
coiffure. "Why in God's name would I ask you to ruin my life? My
accounts, my professional reputation...even my sweet Julia thinks I've
gone insane!" His gestures ripped uselessly at the blue smoke emerging
from the quiet figure. "The horrible things that've happened to me, I
can't explain a single one of them...and you say I ASKED you for this??
Asked to watch as my friends shake their heads and whisper?"
The shadow brought the orange tip of his cigarillo to his face,
illuminating his thick, indolent features.
"Yes, Mr. Somerville. You did. Remember? At the..."
"The Jasmine nightclub," interrupted Alexander, recognizing. "Oh
my God...you? The hippie...I was so drunk that night..."
"You were so unhappy, Mr. Somerville. You, the great concert
pianist, the man adored by the sparkling doves of this city, the
prodigy, the musician who had mastered Chopin by ear." His black, wispy
hair floating like a dark halo, the intruder took another drag before
continuing. "Do you remember what you had said so sincerely that day?"
Alexander's mouth opened and closed before he finally whispered, "I
said...that I was...tired of my life..." He shook his head in
amazement. "But, Jesus Christ, I meant that I needed a vacation!
Not..." He threw his arms open at the thoroughly violated apartment.
The stranger's dangerous smile was barely visible. "You have had
vacations before. They couldn't break the chains you'd forged from
years of suppressed desire and perception. Nothing would, except the
destruction of everything you think you hold dear." He shrugged. "Hey,
it worked for me."
Alexander hissed wide-eyed in a nerveless panic, "I don't FEEL
rested and relaxed, you God damned madman!"
The figure stood, the light of the distant millions filling behind
him.
"Relaxation is for quitters, Alex. You gotta destroy before you
can rebuild. And there is one more thing you must lose."
"One more..? You have taken EVERYTHING from me!" wept Alexander in
stark bewilderment.
"Hardly. You get to keep your life, your hands, your eyes, your
incredible sense of beauty. Make the most of it, Alex. Good luck."
With that, the man evaporated along with the smoke, leaving behind a
vacuous, profound silence.
To Alexander's horror, the silence remained.
************************************************************************
This is how I play the CoX, generally speaking. Breaking
boundaries, particularly personal ones, is largely what the CoX is
about, I think, and that is easily one of the toughest, most terrifying
things a person can do. And they do it over and over -- to themselves,
and to others who think they wish to change.
Beau Yarbrough
Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> A bunch of awakened sybarites wouldn't really have
> much drive or purpose, would they?
They'd be fun to party with, though.
Conrad Hubbard
vice rather than freedom is particularly shiny-happy. Consider for
example the boisterous libido that alcohol can create in some people and
the freedom from inhibitions. Then compare this with alcoholicism. The
dark path for the Cult of Ecstasy is already there. They must struggle
to avoid the ultimate dependency upon their own foci for breaking
barriers.
--
Conrad Hubbard - Computer Projects Assistant
White Wolf Publishing
http://www.white-wolf.com
The Howl heard 'round the World
Marizhavashti Kali
Beau Yarbrough wrote:
>
> In article <3872FB96...@teleport.com>,
> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >
> > A bunch of awakened sybarites wouldn't really have
> > much drive or purpose, would they?
>
> They'd be fun to party with, though.
Point taken.
"Oh show me the way to the next whiskey bar..."
Alexis K
> >of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
> >missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining consistent
> >to what's been said about the group in the past?
>
> factor that affects members the same way that Jhor hits Euthanatos...an
> accumulation of things really, that leads the mage away from what they -
> intended- to be to a place where they're lost and consumed by the tools
> (Drugs, sex, what have you) that they were using to attain the enlightenment
> they were seeking.
>
> A downwards spiral that leads to a dead end, to stagnation and a wallowing in
> hedonistic excess for it's own sake...possibly even to death as the mage gets
> more and more obsessed with the tools, and less careful. OD, HIV, murder by a
> random stranger picked up in a club, obsession with pleasure that leads to
> teh Mage throwing themselves to the Kindred, what have you.
>
> Kennet
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------
> http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html - Fight World hunger.
> ----------------------------------------
>
While I love the CoE, and agree pretty much 100% with their ideals, the Code
of Ananda, and all that, they can be so boring and safe sometimes. I really
like the tone and the prose of the CoE book, and I think it was important to
dispel the whole idea of the Cult as being completely self-destructive
hedonistic assholes with little or nothing to contribute to the world beyond
a good lay. However, it may have gone a bit too far to the other end.
Obsession is a good word to pick up on here. Most of the Cultists we've seen
thus far are pretty, well-adjusted, wise loving people and end up coming
across as just waaaaaaaaay too bland and safe. Marianna of Balador is the
prime example of this- she's just so whitebread. For a Tradition that claims
Jim Morrison as one of it's members, you'd think there would be more
obsessive, manic-depressive, drunken, poetic, insane, gifted, glorious
fuckups and nutbags hanging around. Though I think the whole Code of Ananda
should be the ideal most of the Tradition clings to, I don't think everyoen
should be so damn good at it.
Balador itself is so sanitized and neatly packaged (Tuesdays are rave night
and the S/M dungeons all have medics on call all the time... yawn) that it
comes across as the Umbral Club Med for the Awakened. There's no vitality,
risk, or danger ... everything's just a really high-end version of stuff you
can get in any major city. The main problem is that all the things they have
at Balador are pretty well-established, mainstream activities (bungee-jumping
for God's sake...), but nothing cutting-edge, new, unheard of or even
particularly extreme. Balador is removed from the pulse of the real world,
whereas I see most Cultists spending their nights in clubs listening to bands
playing music no one has ever heard before, throwing ritualistic and
wonderful parties and orgies, backpacking around the world, pushing their own
physical and mental limits well past the breaking point, yada yada yada,
rather than transplanting well-established subcultures into Horizon Realms
and enjoying them safely.
I'm just prattling now, but the point is that the Cult needs to less mellow
and well-adjusted, and more obsessional and passionate, or they'll come off
as the white middle class, vaguely Neo-Pagan, yuppie Tradition of suburban
swingers and cannabis cultivators.
Just my $0.02
Alexis K
--
"Because, as you know, chocolate is peanut
butter's natural enemy," - Dr. Evil
Alexis K
"Kish" <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Beau Yarbrough wrote in message <84uetu$2sm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> >too shiny.
> >
> >Do people agree with this assessment?
> >
>
> Lots of people also disagree with it, and I'm one of them. The Traditions
> are the heroes of the game, after all.
>
> Just thought I'd mention it.
>
I have to put myself firmly on the other side here. Mage in particular, and
the WoD has always been at its best when it doesn't make any faction out to
be pure and heroic. Personally, I really am not too fond of heroism as a
concept, but if you want heroes in your game, making the existing
institutions, even and one might argue especially the sympathetic ones,
deeply flawed gives the *players* the opportunity to *be* the heroes that fix
the broken stuff. Having a clearly heroic faction like the way the Council of
Nine Traditions tends to be portrayed has the annoying tendency to make the
players chantry seem like the local chapter of the Justice League of the
Tellurian. In their absence, the players have more opportunity to shine,
bringing the squabbling factions of mages together, making wrong things
right, getting cats out of trees, finding true love, etc.
Everything I've heard about breaking up the Council, making the Traditions
less heroic and the Technocracy less evil, and putting more in the hands of
lower-powered mages actually living on Earth makes me abundantly happy,
though some of the methods used (the Avatar Winds) could have been less
cheesy.
Angela Christine
>Beau Yarbrough wrote:
>>
>> In article <3872FB96...@teleport.com>,
>> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > A bunch of awakened sybarites wouldn't really have
>> > much drive or purpose, would they?
>>
>> They'd be fun to party with, though.
>
>Point taken.
>
>"Oh show me the way to the next whiskey bar..."
To bad there aren't more of them, they could solve the vampire feeding
dilemma--people who would be willing to trade blood for pleasure and
have no intrest in letting the unwashed hordes of normal mortals in on
the secret. :)
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry if this is a duplicate message,
I'm having some Y2K related oddness.
DShomshak
<webw...@peekaboospam.icu> writes:
>Describe the basic characteristics of each variable, Beau:
>> Now, without going overboard in the other direction ("they harbor lots
>> of CHILD MOLESTORS!"), what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
>> missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining consistent
>> to what's been said about the group in the past?
My own observation: That the CoX makes a big deal about their ethics suggests
that they *need* that code -- that all too many practitioners do slide down
that slippery slope into destructive behavior.
>The CoX uses drugs as foci in a _major_ way. Same with sex. Yet there
>doesn't seem to be much talk in any book about burnout factors, about
>Cultists becoming addicted to their drugs, etc.
A good subject for Seekings. Beat the addiction, and gain Arete as you
reaffirm that the magick is in you, not the drug or the sex or whatever.
> In a game I'm about to start running, I've decided to split the
>CoX into two factions:
I give them more than that. All the "factions" are very informal, of course;
the natural unit of organization for my CoX is the single cultist. It's not as
if the groups were voting blocs.
The "Ravers" are the stereotypical sex-drugs-&-rock 'n roll CoXers. Also
called Rockers and many other names, some of them unprintable, by other mages.
They have the highest incidence of addiction and burnout.
"Delphians" are classic Greco-Roman oracles. They use meditation and religious
devotion as well as special sacramental drugs to achieve ecstasy.
"Ghost Dancers" use exhaustion and pain techniques, from whirling-dervish
dancing to self-mutilation.
"Musides" focus on the fine arts. Theirs is the quiet ecstasy when the artist
and her art become one, their magic wrought by the fusion of vision with
perfect technical mastery.
"Tantrics" are most notorious for using ceremonial sex, but they also employ
breathing techniques, chanting, ritual implements and other methods. And the
ones who don't burn out lay special emphasis on the "ceremonial" in their sex:
a true Tantric would no more engage in casual sex than a good Catholic priest
would munch consecrated Hosts while watching TV.
The Ravers give the CoX their reputation in the Western world, because they are
the noisiest. Other Ecstatics often find them obnoxious and (as Webwalker
suggests) rather childish.
Dean Shomshak
**********************************************************
Send e-mail responses to DSho...@juno.com.
The AOL address is a spam trap.
**********************************************************
Beau Yarbrough
dsho...@aol.com (DShomshak) wrote:
And, of course, no cultist necessarily stays in one of these categories
for long. As they gain in enlightenment, I think it'd only be natural
that a cultist would change in behavior and outlook. And if they picked
up Spheres at different stages of their journey (not an unreasonable
thought), you might thus end up with a Cultist whose early Spheres have
the cliched destructive focii (hard drugs for Time magic, perhaps) and
more traditional ones later on (meditation for Correspondence).
Dr Nuncheon
Alexis K <ale...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <84ujim$u68$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Kish" <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<are the CoX too 'shiny-happy'?>
>> Lots of people also disagree with it, and I'm one of them. The Traditions
>> are the heroes of the game, after all.
>>
>> Just thought I'd mention it.
>
>I have to put myself firmly on the other side here. Mage in particular, and
>the WoD has always been at its best when it doesn't make any faction out to
>be pure and heroic.
Yeah. Even my personal favorite for the "real heros" of Mage, the
Marauders, are effin' scary bastiches.
>Everything I've heard about breaking up the Council, making the Traditions
>less heroic and the Technocracy less evil, and putting more in the hands of
>lower-powered mages actually living on Earth makes me abundantly happy,
Me too!
I've always thought the Traditions would be in no way better than the
Technocracy if they were in power - in fact, most of them would be *worse*
than the Technos. The Technocracy wants to put power and magic (in the
form of technology) into the hands of the masses, while the Traditions
are, in general, a bunch of elitists who are keeping it to themselves.
(You didn't see the Order of Hermes distributing magic wands to everyone
back when they were on the top of the heap, did ya?)
J
--
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
Mike Hicks
"Dr Nuncheon" <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:852h96$egi$1...@hiram.io.com...
> In article <851l90$ei4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Alexis K <ale...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <84ujim$u68$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "Kish" <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I've always thought the Traditions would be in no way better than the
> Technocracy if they were in power - in fact, most of them would be *worse*
> than the Technos. The Technocracy wants to put power and magic (in the
> form of technology) into the hands of the masses,
Who said the masses are capable of handling that power?
while the Traditions
> are, in general, a bunch of elitists who are keeping it to themselves.
May I remind you that all the Awakened ARE the elite?
> (You didn't see the Order of Hermes distributing magic wands to everyone
> back when they were on the top of the heap, did ya?)
Again, who said the masses could handle that kind of power? Hmm?
Coralius the Chariot
Robin Lim
Mike Hicks <hicks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:852si4$14c6$1...@news.inc.net...
>
> >I've always thought the Traditions would be in no way better than the
> > Technocracy if they were in power - in fact, most of them would be
*worse*
> > than the Technos. The Technocracy wants to put power and magic (in the
> > form of technology) into the hands of the masses,
>
> Who said the masses are capable of handling that power?
The entire modern philosophical tradition, for the most part.
> while the Traditions
> > are, in general, a bunch of elitists who are keeping it to themselves.
>
> May I remind you that all the Awakened ARE the elite?
Doesn't stop them from BEHAVING like a bunch of elitist prigs. Just because
you're better than everyone else doesn't mean you have to lord it over them
like a vampire/elf. I don't ;)
> > (You didn't see the Order of Hermes distributing magic wands to everyone
> > back when they were on the top of the heap, did ya?)
>
> Again, who said the masses could handle that kind of power? Hmm?
Because a lot of people have guns and use them responsibly? A lot of people
use their medications responsibly? A lot of people use their demolitions
skills responsibly?
Rob
Julian Mensch
>
> I have to put myself firmly on the other side here. Mage in particular, and
> the WoD has always been at its best when it doesn't make any faction out to
I do think there are three approaches to heroism
in the World of Darkness:
1] The Antiheroes. Groups with sympathetic aspects and
compelling motives that do things we simply can't
condone. Sabbat and Garou fit here for me. I want to
try to shove the changelings in this direction IMC.
2] The White Hats. True blue factions composed wholly
of basically decent people following a good ideology
to whom moral conduct seems to come naturally. The
canon Traditions fall here, IMO, as do most Seelie.
3] Human Heroes. Groups of people with human flaws,
fallibility, selfishness and even spite along with
a few basically good folk and genuinely heroic
types grouped together under a good ideology. The
cause is right, but the heroes aren't perfect and
tend to pervert it through human failing, or at
least need to overcome their own petty faults before
they (as individuals) can champion it properly. This
is how I want both the Traditions and the Technocracy
to be in my WoD.
The problem with 3, of course, is that you have to
stain the group without staining it's ideology. The
values of the CoX as presented in the Tradbook are a
truly beautiful, compelling, moving vision of how
people should treat each other and expand their vision
through pleasure and joy. To twist that ideology, to
turn it into something like a cheap rip of the Settite
Path of Ecstacy cheapens everything the Cult should
represent. The cheesy part is not the ideology, it's
that Cultists are automatically possessed of sufficient
moral fiber to always live up to that ideology. Sure,
Cultists should act like degenerate selfish assholes
as much as they do like PC hippies, but when they do
it should be clear that they are betraying what the
Cult stands for, not epitomizing it.
> concept, but if you want heroes in your game, making the existing
> institutions, even and one might argue especially the sympathetic ones,
> deeply flawed gives the *players* the opportunity to *be* the heroes that fix
> the broken stuff. Having a clearly heroic faction like the way the Council of
Amen.
> Nine Traditions tends to be portrayed has the annoying tendency to make the
> players chantry seem like the local chapter of the Justice League of the
> Tellurian. In their absence, the players have more opportunity to shine,
The problem with the JLA in the WoD is that morality
comes so easily to them, IMO. The Council should have to
fight like the bloody dickens to earn their White Hats
instead of having it given to them by authorial fiat,
and be fight I mean fight to perfect themselves, not go
blow up Technarchs.
> bringing the squabbling factions of mages together, making wrong things
> right, getting cats out of trees, finding true love, etc.
Even better, IMO, is players start out as not entirely
model Tradmagi and have a chance to learn responsibility,
develop a respect for their Tradition's ideology and
eventually come to embody the goodness of the ideology
through overcoming their own personal flaws. The game /is/
called Mage: the *Ascension*, after all.
_Such Pain_, the Mage novel, shows how a rather callous
CoX charecter manages to overcome his personal flaws to
more fully represent the ideals a Cultist should represent.
This story, IMO, is the model for how to run Tradmages.
(Everything said here applies to Technocrats too, BTW.)
-- Julian Mensch
Joseph Duncan Carriker, Jr.
>I'd say that for a Tradition so laid back as far as rules were
>concerned, the absolute code (and the general feeling that these self
>-centered egotistical people with the power to shape reality actually
>unanimously followed it) was a bit out of place.
Honestly, I've always perceived the CoX as being "laid back" about
*society's* rules. Despite their reputation as slacker-hippy types, I don't
think *any* Mage has an "aaah, whatever" attitude.
>The Verbena were really distanced from the blood and nasty magic they
>appeared to have in the 1st Ed main book (applicable b/c TB: Verbena
Thaaaaank YOU! I was *severely* disappointed by TradBook: Verbena. I mean,
I'm pagan and my reaction was: "AAAh! Newage!" (rhymes with 'Sewage').
I want visceral, organic mages, baby -- I want Anthony Ludgate, from the
Marvel limited series 'Druid', written by Warren Ellis. (Though it might be
argues that his Ludgate is closer to a Euthanatos of the Aided, but
still....)
And Mage who threatens to nail people's guts to The Great Oak is okay in my
book. :)
Joseph Carriker
oakt...@hotmail.com
ICQ 40818122
Oakthorne's World of Darkness
http://members.tripod.com/oakthorne/welcome.htm
Semper Somnus Wolf Pack Web Site
http://members.tripod.com/semper_somnus/index.htm
********************************************************************
"Didja hear about the Texas cowboy who went to Benares and became a Hindu
monk? Wore a ten-gallon hat with his dhoti, and took the name Haudhi
Padma."
--Len/Black Lotus
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Steve Collington
Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:3872F694...@teleport.com...
>
>
> Beau Yarbrough wrote:
> >
> > At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
> > made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> > too shiny.
> >
> > Do people agree with this assessment?
>
> strong ethics. I don't think that ethics are necessarily a bad thing,
> even in the WoD. It's also clear that not all of them abide by these
> ethics.
>
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
> Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
> "You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
> http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Funny, but when I read the CoX Tradbook, I came across sects like the
Acharne (venom-injecting sado-masochistic demon-summoning visionaries who
haunt the Hellfire Clubs), Aghoris (fearsome Indian cultists who believe in
orgies, rape, desecration and breaking of boundaries without restraint) and
the Hagalaz, all of whom *reject* the Code of Ananda as weak. The Maenads
go on berserk drunken killing sprees when they aren't performing good public
works and they *follow* the Code of Ananda.
"Temperate and mild, every last one." Yeah, right.
More insidiously, consider the effects of casual sex on existing
relationships (not all of them sexual). Going back to TB: CoX - when Cassie
falls in love with Wolf he's enjoying a different partner - it creates
feelings that are not happy and shiny - Cassie leaves partially to deal with
the pain of being unable to deal with Wolf's infidelity after he Awakens
her - why are your characters going to be so well-adjusted about a similar
situation??
IMHO, the Cult is OK as written. Consider the consequences of your
actions - regrets, infidelity, jealousy - why shouldn't the 'happy, shiny
Cultists' know these emotions? It's a rare Cultist who isn't a social
animal and you have a whole group of them with the power to make every dark
impulse you feel towards those special ex's happen...
However, the Verbena DO need a re-write. Whilst the Tradition is gaining a
shot in the arm from the New Age movement, I'd rather hope that the New Age
mystick gets a shock when she summons a pegasus to carry her into the spirit
world - I'm not for all of them being 'bloody bitches' but 'midwife, doctor,
butcher' - all of them have a solid practicality to them and a willingness
to do what must be done. That to me, is Verbena attitude - not to say they
can't be flighty - however, there *are* limits.
Been a while since I was here. Good to be back.
Steve.
Blake
Beau Yarbrough <comic...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
> made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> too shiny.
>
> Do people agree with this assessment?
>
Pretty much. Them and the Dreamspeakers. Yeah. WW = PC. No big
revelation there...
> Now, without going overboard in the other direction ("they harbor lots
> of CHILD MOLESTORS!"),
Well, they do trace back to the Seers of Chronos, who lived in a place
& time where carnal relations between men and boys were considered
normal...
> what's the sort of rough edges people feel are
> missing from the Tradition's portrayal, while still remaining
consistent
> to what's been said about the group in the past?
Frankly, I don't see what's so bad about the supposed heroes of the
game (Traddies in general) being portrayed in a positive light.
But, yeah, the CoX have thier rough edges, vice (even in a spiritual
cause) can be corruptive, they tend to be unrealistic, less than
dependable, idealistic in an anoying rather than inspiring sort of
way... not to mention pretty darn hypocritical - just like the
generation they're based on (The American 'Baby Boomers' who came of
age in the 60's and 70's - drugs, sex, rock & roll...).
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317 '-|---
Bruce Baugh
>My own observation: That the CoX makes a big deal about their ethics suggests
>that they *need* that code -- that all too many practitioners do slide down
>that slippery slope into destructive behavior.
Makes sense. As C.S. Lewis noted, a generous people do not have to be
exhorted to generosity, nor a sober people exhorted to sobriety.
>A good subject for Seekings. Beat the addiction, and gain Arete as you
>reaffirm that the magick is in you, not the drug or the sex or whatever.
I like that. It'd fit a CoX character in my Mage game, who's seeking
enlightenment with as few frills as he can get.
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with guns, that
I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
Alexis K
aca.Rem...@telus.net (Angela Christine) wrote:
> Rumor has it that, Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >Beau Yarbrough wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <3872FB96...@teleport.com>,
> >> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > A bunch of awakened sybarites wouldn't really have
> >> > much drive or purpose, would they?
> >>
> >> They'd be fun to party with, though.
> >
> >Point taken.
> >
> >"Oh show me the way to the next whiskey bar..."
>
> To bad there aren't more of them, they could solve the vampire feeding
> dilemma--people who would be willing to trade blood for pleasure and
> have no intrest in letting the unwashed hordes of normal mortals in on
> the secret. :)
>
Little groups of people like that are a part of my WoD setting, though they
haven't come up much, if at all.
> Angela Christine
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sorry if this is a duplicate message,
> I'm having some Y2K related oddness.
>
--
"Because, as you know, chocolate is peanut
butter's natural enemy," - Dr. Evil
Alexis K
"Steve Collington" <steve.co...@diamond.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote in message
> news:3872F694...@teleport.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > At some point in the "Curse of Caine" mega-thread, there was a comment
> > > made that the Cult of Ecstasy tradbook made the group sound too happy,
> > > too shiny.
> > >
> > > Do people agree with this assessment?
> >
> > strong ethics. I don't think that ethics are necessarily a bad thing,
> > even in the WoD. It's also clear that not all of them abide by these
> > ethics.
> >
> > --
> > Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
> > Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant
> > "You are using the time-honored strategy of ignoring my point."
> > http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
>
> Funny, but when I read the CoX Tradbook, I came across sects like the
> Acharne (venom-injecting sado-masochistic demon-summoning visionaries who
> haunt the Hellfire Clubs), Aghoris (fearsome Indian cultists who believe in
> orgies, rape, desecration and breaking of boundaries without restraint) and
> the Hagalaz, all of whom *reject* the Code of Ananda as weak. The Maenads
> go on berserk drunken killing sprees when they aren't performing good public
> works and they *follow* the Code of Ananda.
> "Temperate and mild, every last one." Yeah, right.
>
Yes, but these are pretty explicitly outside of the tradition. What is
necessary is more grey area, between the loving Earth Goddesses and Gods and
the psycho sadist black metal creeps. I like the Maenads for that reason and
the all-female Tantric order whose name escapes me at the moment as well, but
we could still use more generally well-intentioned people with glorious
ideals and high codes of ethics they need to work at because they're
passionately deranged and intense people.
> More insidiously, consider the effects of casual sex on existing
> relationships (not all of them sexual). Going back to TB: CoX - when Cassie
> falls in love with Wolf he's enjoying a different partner - it creates
> feelings that are not happy and shiny - Cassie leaves partially to deal with
> the pain of being unable to deal with Wolf's infidelity after he Awakens
> her - why are your characters going to be so well-adjusted about a similar
> situation??
>
> IMHO, the Cult is OK as written. Consider the consequences of your
> actions - regrets, infidelity, jealousy - why shouldn't the 'happy, shiny
> Cultists' know these emotions? It's a rare Cultist who isn't a social
> animal and you have a whole group of them with the power to make every dark
> impulse you feel towards those special ex's happen...
>
I wouldn't at all characterize Wolf's sexual relatiosnhips with another
person as "infidelity." Infidelity requires betrayal of an ideal or of faith
or trust someone has in you. Wolf and Cassie (and Aria and the nameless woman
Cassie picks up on the way to Burning Man and the lovers she takes there) are
engaging in consensual polyamory. It's not cheating, it's an open
relationship. Wolf didn't do anything "wrong" nor did anyone else. Jealousy
and insecurity and all that are part of the emotional cocktail yo down with
that sort of thing. As someone in a polyamorous relationship, I can testify
that it is not at all easy or always "shiny happy" to be in Cassie's
position, but the sum total of such a relationship can be profoundly
uplifting, intense, and liberating. Being free in the company of other free
people is rewarding as well as completely fucking terrifying, which as I see
it is the point of the CoE tradbook.
> However, the Verbena DO need a re-write. Whilst the Tradition is gaining a
> shot in the arm from the New Age movement, I'd rather hope that the New Age
> mystick gets a shock when she summons a pegasus to carry her into the spirit
> world - I'm not for all of them being 'bloody bitches' but 'midwife, doctor,
> butcher' - all of them have a solid practicality to them and a willingness
> to do what must be done. That to me, is Verbena attitude - not to say they
> can't be flighty - however, there *are* limits.
>
Couldn't agree more here. I would also like to have the "dark side" of
European fertility and nature religions - the plausible and historically very
common mingling of neopaganism and fascism. The Nazis were big on their
Teutonic heritage and the sacred oak and Grail mythology and neo-druidic
ritual and all that crap, and they're only the most extreme example of
neopaganism hand-in-hand with extreme nationalism. Even now, there are the
so-caled "brown Greens" (fascists in the Green party tent who pursue an
enivronmental agenda as part of a larger overall program of defending the
sacred earth of the Fatherland) and a lot of militaristic right-wingers who
draw on rune magic and Wagner and whatnot. They aren't alone either. The
Hermetics are potentially even worse in this regard, with the various
connections between mystery lodges and extreme anticommunism and fascism.
Most of the more mystical Traditions in the last two centuries would have
found the secular slant of Marxism (and the watered-down versions of it that
influenced modern American liberalism and European social democracy) utterly
repellent, and those that saw it as a major threat would have taken a hard
line against them that would in many cases lead to affiliation with some
scary people.
This isn't to say that those traditions are completely or inevitably, or even
mostly, affiliated with reprehensible ideologies, but it does mean that you
shouldn't be able to walk into Horizon and expect to find everyone or even
most people agreed on issues of race and national identity, or social policy
in general. Too often, it seems like th Traditions are superpowered champions
of a tolerant and safe modern liberal ideology that many gamers (including
myself, for the most part) adhere to themselves. The reality is more complex
than that.
Alexis K
> Been a while since I was here. Good to be back.
> Steve.
>
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