Can Mages be Ghouled?
Chris Page
If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
ancient ghoul would have).
Does the Mage just use the ingested blood as Tass?
While the blood is in the mage, does it impair or completely negate
his/her spheres?
Let me know your ideas and if any precidents are set by any of the
W.o.D. books.
My e-mail is cap...@nic.smsu.edu
Contact me there.
Thanks!
-Chris
James Lai
Chris Page <cap...@nic.smsu.edu> wrote:
>If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
>have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
>ancient ghoul would have).
>Does the Mage just use the ingested blood as Tass?
>While the blood is in the mage, does it impair or completely negate
>his/her spheres?
>Let me know your ideas and if any precidents are set by any of the
>W.o.D. books.
I think so. I know Werewolves can be made into ghouls. As far as
precedents go, the best I can suggest is Samuel Haight, who is a True
Mage, despite the dubious nature of the origin of his Avatar. All
that it would mean is that the mage would get a dot in potence like
all ghouls do, and then also be blood bound to the vampire.
Greg Ingber
> If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
> What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> ancient ghoul would have).
>
I find it somewhat hard to believe a mage could be ghouled in the first
place. Compared to sleepers, Mage are incrediably strong willed people.
The rulebook says that even Mages without any dots in Avatar have a much
stronger will than others. It is this that allows them to change
reality. Because of this, it seems to me that a mage could not be
ghouled/controled through normal means. Furthermore, isn't this sort of
Vampire stuff really connected to the power that Vampires have over
mortals/regular people? I guess that this raises the question of to what
extent a mage is a human being and to what extent a mage is something
else... Same question for Changlings...
At any rate, if one did manage to ghoul a Mage in one of my games, I would
rule that by doing so you would have had to reduce to reduce the mages
will to such a degreee that the Mage is no longer strong enough to alter
reality.
-G Chez
--
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DeeDee Mao
In article <53fi05$6...@news.cland.net> Chris Page <cap...@nic.smsu.edu> writes:
>If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
>What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
>have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
>ancient ghoul would have).
>
>
make the mage lose a point of aerte for every point of discipline.
When she loses all aerte she stops being a mage.
>While the blood is in the mage, does it impair or completely negate
>his/her spheres?
>
>Let me know your ideas and if any precidents are set by any of the
>W.o.D. books.
>
Look in Freak Legion to see an example of mages becoming fomori.
>
>Contact me there.
>
>Thanks!
>
> -Chris
>
>
>.
>.
I didn't kill her! My pushing | DeeDee Mao
her was an omen that she would | t2...@academic.truman.edu
fall to her death. I don't buy| Man on a Mission
into that paradigm of | Boy With a Gun
"CAUSUALITY" |
Keith
Chris Page wrote:
>
> If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
> What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> ancient ghoul would have).
>
> Does the Mage just use the ingested blood as Tass?
>
> his/her spheres?
>
> Let me know your ideas and if any precidents are set by any of the
> W.o.D. books.
>
>
> Contact me there.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Chris
manage to turn the blood to Tass as it is entering their body. This is
unlikely and VERY difficult though
Thomas Bogigian
[snip]
>All that it would mean is that the mage would get a dot in potence like
>all ghouls do, and then also be blood bound to the vampire.
If the mage drank the same vamp's blood 3 times.
verkuilen john v
Keith <Crow...@cris.com> writes:
>Yes they can be ghouled. they only way they can avoid this is if they
>manage to turn the blood to Tass as it is entering their body. This is
>unlikely and VERY difficult though
It would take Prime 3 to extract the quintessence, IMO. Once that's
gone, I guess I'd rule that the blood would just be normal blood.
As far as the general question of whether mages can become ghouls goes,
M:tA2 is relatively clear on that point--yes--but of course the likelihood
of becoming blood-bound is pretty high. It's not a ticket to immortality
for most mages and my guess would be that many mages would view the
whole notion with disgust, certainly Euthanatos or Akashics, both of whom are
reincarnationists. (See DSoBH for some examples of Verbena who drank
vampire blood.)
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
Marc KTW Mielke
Greg Ingber <ging...@swarthmore.edu> wrote in article
<gingber1-101...@res104.mary-lyon01.swarthmore.edu>...
> At any rate, if one did manage to ghoul a Mage in one of my games, I
would
> rule that by doing so you would have had to reduce to reduce the mages
> will to such a degreee that the Mage is no longer strong enough to alter
> reality.
OK, but if the Vamp happened to be a Thaumaturgist, could HE affect
realiuty using the Level Four Ritual "Drawing Upon the Bound"? That's
pretty much the only book-legal way I've seen for a Leech to use True
Magick, and so far I can't see any reason why it shouldn't work. And I've
been looking, believe me.
-Marc
"Whatever comes, I shall not flinch.
Prodded by some unfathomable urge, I have given
my whole life to the quest of unholy mysteries.
I came here for nothing else, and will not quarrel with fate."
-H.P. Lovecraft and William Lumley, "The Diary of Alonzo Typer"
mir...@lascruces.com
Chris Page wrote:
>
> If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
> What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> ancient ghoul would have).
>
every point they have in a discipline they would lose the point, or
for every 10 years after they would have naturally died. Either way,
after a while they will no longer be a mage.
Julian Mensch
For a Ghoul-Mage, read Book of Chantries - Klaus Hortimone is a mage of the
OoH, allied with clan/house Tremere. He has disciplines and spheres.
Dayz n fuz
Can't revenants be mages? Not sure if I remember right, but if they can,
then there's no reason why mages can't be ghouls.
Jay Mehaffey
mir...@lascruces.com wrote:
>
> Chris Page wrote:
> >
> > If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
> >
> > What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> > have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> > ancient ghoul would have).
I really don't see this as a problem, remember that that dynamic and
static
power would have to be developed seperatly. The cost for ghouls to
increase
disciplines is quite high, so a mage ghoul would be stuck developing one
or
the other.
> I think that the mage would start losing her arete points. Perhaps for
> every point they have in a discipline they would lose the point, or
> for every 10 years after they would have naturally died. Either way,
> after a while they will no longer be a mage.
Personally I think your trying to stop a rule abuse that doesn't exist.
A mage dealing with vampires that much has enough problems beyond losing
his magik. But if you want to rule that way in your own campaign feel
free.
Becoming a ghoul may seem an easy way to achive imortality, but remember
that you need a regular supply, and you have to avoid being blood bonded
somehow. If your using the blood to power disciplines then you need to
get even more blood somehow.
From an offical rule perspective there is no reason to believe there
would
be any problems at all. The rules state clearly that an embraced mage
looses dynamic magik, but several of the books allude to relations
between
mages and vampires and the Book of Chantries mentions talks about a mage
that obviously ghouled to the Tremere.
Jay Mehaffey
Allen L McIver [Mc Iver of Mc Iver's]
Chris Page wrote:
>
> If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
> What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> ancient ghoul would have).
Yes, they can. The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand has a revenant
family of witches (revenants are ghoul families... beings born of
Ghouled parents and having a natural supply of renewing Vitae) of which
most of the Family are Hedge mages but has many True Verbena among
them... Also they are rumored not to need further Vitae from their
Vampire masters so maybe the Mistresses of Blood magic have found a way
to produce Vitae..
Or maybe they have a meth on tap?? Who knows??
>
> Does the Mage just use the ingested blood as Tass?
Lots of magi use Vitae as tass, but the smart ones don't drink it!
Eternal life is not worth the blood bond... And a lot of witches were
burned at the stake for their Undead Regnant so the bit about eternal
life isn't right either...
--
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thrown with great force. -- Dorothy Parker
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The Baron
On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:27:50 -0500, The Dark and Evil
ging...@swarthmore.edu (Greg Ingber) wrote:
>In article <53fi05$6...@news.cland.net>, Chris Page <cap...@nic.smsu.edu> wrote:
>
>> If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>>
>> What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
>> have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
>> ancient ghoul would have).
>>
>
>I find it somewhat hard to believe a mage could be ghouled in the first
>place. Compared to sleepers, Mage are incrediably strong willed people.
>The rulebook says that even Mages without any dots in Avatar have a much
>stronger will than others. It is this that allows them to change
>reality. Because of this, it seems to me that a mage could not be
>ghouled/controled through normal means. Furthermore, isn't this sort of
>Vampire stuff really connected to the power that Vampires have over
>mortals/regular people? I guess that this raises the question of to what
>extent a mage is a human being and to what extent a mage is something
>else... Same question for Changlings...
>
>At any rate, if one did manage to ghoul a Mage in one of my games, I would
>rule that by doing so you would have had to reduce to reduce the mages
>will to such a degreee that the Mage is no longer strong enough to alter
>reality.
>
>-G Chez
There is a Ghould Mage in The Book of Vhauntries...a Powerful Hermetic
in Doissep (sp).
Philippa Elizabeth BORLAND
Chris Page (cap...@nic.smsu.edu) wrote:
: If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
: What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
: have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
: ancient ghoul would have).
I have vague memories of either a merit or flaw (can't remember which),
which is a ghoul mage. Not sure if it from book of shadows or soomewhere
else, but it was fairly high points. 5+ from memory. I think it was in the
same place a psychic vampire, but I could be wrong. Does anyone know what I
am talking about, or was it all just a dream . . .
Philippa Borland
(pbor...@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au)
James Desborough
Yes Mages can be ghouled, as werewolves can be ghouled, as Changelings
can be ghouled. Blood bonding is the primary control method available
to all Vampires.
The ghoul maintains his free will except with regard to his master, whom
he loves. You wouldn't say that someone in love lacks free will would you?
The ghoul gets potence, immortality, the ability to heal and boost stats
with blood and if it's master is powerful enough, may gain other disciplines
as well to start with.
GRIM
--
*****************************************************************************
* 100,000 Lemmings Can't be wrong *
* Gr...@postmort.demon.co.uk *
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Clayton Oliver
Philippa Elizabeth BORLAND wrote:
> I have vague memories of either a merit or flaw (can't remember
> which), which is a ghoul mage. Not sure if it from book of shadows
> or soomewhere else, but it was fairly high points. 5+ from memory.
I believe there's a ghoul merit in Ascension's Right Hand, but I could
be wrong... don't have a copy on hand.
There is an example of a ghouled mage in the Book of Chantries. Klaus
Hortemone, pg. 24. He's not formally written up as a cross-game
character, but anyone familiar with Vampire should be able to figure out
what his Discipline levels are.
...---... ...---... ...---...
Clayton Oliver ae...@white-wolf.com
...---... ...---... ...---...
I took a wrong turn on the astral plane
Now I keep on thinking my life is gonna change
Someday
Bad karma - coming after me
Bad karma - killing me by degrees
- Warren Zevon, "Bad Karma"
Duncan
Uh, pardon me, but the definition of a Revenant is someone who is a
ghoul and produces _vampiric_ blood intirely on their own, so of course
they don't need the blood of a vampire any more.
William Scott Owen
In article <53vth2$5...@manuel.ocs.mq.edu.au>, pbor...@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au (Philippa Elizabeth BORLAND) writes:
> Chris Page (cap...@nic.smsu.edu) wrote:
> : If a mage is turned into a vampire, he/she looses all dynamic magic.
>
> : What happens, then, if a mage is ghouled? It would seem that they can't
> : have both dynamic and static magic at once (like all the disciplines an
> : ancient ghoul would have).
>
> I have vague memories of either a merit or flaw (can't remember which),
> which is a ghoul mage. Not sure if it from book of shadows or soomewhere
> else, but it was fairly high points. 5+ from memory. I think it was in the
> same place a psychic vampire, but I could be wrong. Does anyone know what I
> am talking about, or was it all just a dream . . .
>
> Philippa Borland
> (pbor...@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au)
>
Yes I saw it too... but I also don't remember where....
--
--http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/users/w/wsowen/public/--
"Why do you keep insisting that you are God?"
"Why do you keep insisting that I am not?"
-----------------------------------------------------
Will/God/Stretch/That guy over there
Kyle Anderson Felker
My Lord, the Umbrood Spirit Duncan reports:
: Uh, pardon me, but the definition of a Revenant is someone who is a
: they don't need the blood of a vampire any more.
They don't need the blood to have disciplines, but they still need it if
they want the other benefits (non-aging, healing damage, add to physical
stats, etc). And like any other ghoul, they can be blood-bound, so they
have to be careful.
--
---------------------------------------
Kyle Felker (kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu)
"Boil, boil, toil and trouble
Fire burn and cauldron bubble!"
- Shakespeare, _Macbeth_
---------------------------------------
devilBoy
I believe Tremere was a Mage prior to his drinking vampiric blood. My
guess would be that a Mage would lose his abilities if he were ghouled.
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Sven Skoog
William Scott Owen (wso...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
(in response to Philippa Borland, who wrote:)
: > I have vague memories of either a merit or flaw (can't remember which),
: > which is a ghoul mage. Not sure if it from book of shadows or soomewhere
: > else, but it was fairly high points. 5+ from memory. I think it was in the
: > same place a psychic vampire, but I could be wrong. Does anyone know what I
: > am talking about, or was it all just a dream . . .
:
: Yes I saw it too... but I also don't remember where....
It was meant to be in _Ascension's Right Hand_, but was mistakenly
omitted. The (5 pt.) 'Ghoul' Merit was later published in the Errata,
which Ms. Brooks has been nice enough to post here every now and again.
-- S. Skoog
JANET FARACE
devilBoy wrote:
>
> I believe Tremere was a Mage prior to his drinking vampiric blood. My
> guess would be that a Mage would lose his abilities if he were ghouled.
Tzimizse(sp?)
vampire ghouled the Cult of Ecstasy mage while he was too high to notice
or care,
and he retained his powers, but had to deal with the fact that he was
now being
controlled by a monster that happily kills people with no remorse.
The Tzimizse character in question was designed and played by a munchkin
who always
felt the need for his character to control every other character in the
game. His
vampires invariably have a very high Dominate and/or Presence, and the
Iron Will
merit. He's like a munchkin that grew up and decided, OK, enough
fighting, I'll
just make everybody else do my fighting for me! :) Before the campaign
disintegrated
into hopeless silliness, the Get of Fenris and the Brother thought the
Tzimizse was
just splendid, and would follow him anywhere, the Cultist was ghouled,
and the
13th gen. Gangrel was patiently waiting for the opportunity to kill him.
> --
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> devi...@eViliVe.com Mankind is inherently evil...
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> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
RaViNg MaDmAn
devilBoy wrote:
>
> I believe Tremere was a Mage prior to his drinking vampiric blood. My
> guess would be that a Mage would lose his abilities if he were ghouled.
That's a bit severe, maybe raising diff of all magic rolls by 2 times
the no. of vampiric blood points in his system? As the "Static"
Reality of the blood affected the mages connection to his avatar.
This means that a tanked up Mage would slowly regain his magical
powers as he ridded himself of the blood. Of course a little
life/matter magic would flush that stuff right out.
Daniel Haddon
devilBoy <devi...@eViliVe.com> wrote:
>I believe Tremere was a Mage prior to his drinking vampiric blood. My
>guess would be that a Mage would lose his abilities if he were ghouled.
Yeah, Mages can become Ghouls, no they don't lose anything.
If embraced, then their Avatar is shattered, but being a Ghoul is
fine.
Clayton Oliver
JANET FARACE wrote:
> The Tzimizse character in question was designed and played by a munchkin
> who always
> felt the need for his character to control every other character in the
> game. His
> vampires invariably have a very high Dominate and/or Presence, and the
> Iron Will
> merit. He's like a munchkin that grew up and decided, OK, enough
> fighting, I'll
> just make everybody else do my fighting for me! :)
High Dominate?
1) Iron Will back at him.
2) Blind flaw. Combine it with the blind-fighting special ability and
Auspex 1 and combat abilities will be virtually unimpaired.
High Presence?
1) Pavis of Foul Presence ritual.
2) Blase merit (Toreador Clanbook).
I repeat myself: For every powertwink, there is a way to counter him,
her, it, or them without resorting to deus ex machina. Think sideways.
Be devious. And when all else fails, let Clan Tremere (or the Uktena,
or the Hermetics, or the Hierarchy, or the Unseelie Court) take an
interest in them for their special abilities, and they'll soon be carted
off to a hidden laboratory for the rest of their unnaturally-attenuated
lives.