Chi pool vs. Blood pool
N. Tomlinson
>
> Is it just me, or is the Chi pool of Kuei-jin quite low compared to the
> Blood pool of western vampires? Kuei-jin start with a total Chi pool of a
> measly six, compared to ten for a kin-jin. Sure, their maximal Chi pool
> could get as high as ten at Dharma level one, but raising Chi is hard. I
> know you have to account for P'o too, but IMO it doesn't compensate for the
> difference.
>
> Kuei-jin of higher Dharma are even more unbalanced - at Dharma five (which
> should roughly correspond to generation 8) still have a total of ten Chi,
> while generation eight kin-jin have 15 points, and can on top of it all
> spend one more point per turn.
>
> It gets worse the higher we go. A Bodhisattva, who only has 18 Chi points to
> play with, wouldn't be much of a match for fifth or fourth generation
> vampire, with their 40-50 Blood points and 8-10 points/turn burn rate. I
> guess the Bodhisattva would have to rely on his wickedly sharp twin silver
> katanas, eh? ;)
>
> I'm sure The Most August of all Role Playing Game Creators have some reason
> for this, but what? Any ideas?
>
> --
> -------------------------------
> Mike Tilly - Helsingborg/Sweden
> - ti...@algonet.se
> - http://www.algonet.se/~tilly
> -------------------------------
Maybe because (I am purely guessing here) they are two totally different
sorts of creatures. Its sort of like comparing apples and oranges, for
thier milieu the kuiejin(sp?) are quite powerful and deadly. They are
not necessarily designed nor meant for heads up direct
competition/comparison to the western vampires. Again, this is only a
guess so I may be so far out in left field that it isn't funny.
Mike Tilly
Michael Mullin
Erik Stutzman
N. Tomlinson <nto...@surfsouth.com> wrote in message
news:393D73...@surfsouth.com...
> sorts of creatures. Its sort of like comparing apples and oranges, for
> thier milieu the kuiejin(sp?) are quite powerful and deadly. They are
> not necessarily designed nor meant for heads up direct
> competition/comparison to the western vampires. Again, this is only a
> guess so I may be so far out in left field that it isn't funny.
Sure they're designed for it, the books have gone to a great deal of trouble
to explain how they're kicking anarch butt all over California. I'm still
not sure how they're doing it though..
Deirdre M. Brooks
Mike Tilly wrote:
>
> Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
> should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
> coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
> between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
> likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
> the outcome of a conflict.
The lines really aren't balanced against each other, only within
themselves. At that, you don't see a huge degree of balance.
As for the Kuei-Jin vs. Kindred, most of the conflict will have nothing
to do with hand-to-hand combat or Discipline-flinging, and more to do
with careful and subtle tactics.
The Kuei-Jin, IMO, never really had a chance of winning, only of
becoming a huge thorn in the Camarilla's side for a time.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"Hyperbole is the arc sarcasm makes when you throw it too hard."
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Kish
Mike Tilly wrote in message <8hjq18$bg0$1...@cubacola.tninet.se>...
>Is it just me, or is the Chi pool of Kuei-jin quite low compared to the
>Blood pool of western vampires? Kuei-jin start with a total Chi pool of a
>measly six, compared to ten for a kin-jin. Sure, their maximal Chi pool
>could get as high as ten at Dharma level one, but raising Chi is hard. I
>know you have to account for P'o too, but IMO it doesn't compensate for the
>difference.
>
<snip>
This is actually addressed in the KotE FAQ.
<<Q: This temporary imbalance thing sucks. If I don’t raise my Chi Virtues, I
can only take in six Chi points without risking imbalance.
A: True . . . but imbalance factors in only if you have to make a roll or use
your Chi in some other risky way. Using Chi for healing or animating yourself
nightly, for instance, is perfectly safe no matter how imbalanced you are. So,
for a lot of feats, you can effectively have 20 Chi available.
Besides, the system is designed to nudge you gently toward raising those
Virtues.>>
--
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.replacewithcom
rjk2000
possess is that no one knows jack about them. They can appear to be much
stronger than they truly are, simply because no one knows anything about
them. The Camarilla knows what it's like to stomp all over some 13th
Generation Caitiff thug, but what do you do to vampires that can exist in
the sunlight? To the Camarilla, this would seem unbelieveably powerful.
Population, stats, powers -- all of it is unknown. It's the Cold War,
WOD-style. No one knows who has the most nuclear missiles, so everyone
treads lightly. IMO, this unknown quality is seriously lacking in many of
the games I see. Even a werewolf should be wary the first time they meet a
vampire, because all he might know is Dracula, and how buff that vampire can
be.
And the Kuei-Jin have only made a strong foothold in the Anarch States.
Which is no real surprise. A highly organized, heirarchial organization
suddenly surprising a group of unorganized, territorial, back-stabbing,
Anarch factions of California? Wipe out the Camarilla (or even the
Anarchs) -- doubtful. Permanently ingrain themselves into the landscape of
the American World of Darkness, and never be dislodged -- very likely.
Sorry for the rambling. Hopefully, that made sense.
Robert Kirkpatrick
Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:393D9A41...@teleport.com...
Erik Stutzman
rjk2000 <rjk...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:h4j%4.70$O96....@nnrp1.sbc.net...
> Yeah, pretty much what Deirdre said. The main advantage that the Kuei-Jin
> possess is that no one knows jack about them. They can appear to be much
> stronger than they truly are, simply because no one knows anything about
> them. The Camarilla knows what it's like to stomp all over some 13th
> Generation Caitiff thug, but what do you do to vampires that can exist in
> the sunlight? To the Camarilla, this would seem unbelieveably powerful.
> Population, stats, powers -- all of it is unknown. It's the Cold War,
> WOD-style. No one knows who has the most nuclear missiles, so everyone
> treads lightly. IMO, this unknown quality is seriously lacking in many of
> the games I see. Even a werewolf should be wary the first time they meet
a
> vampire, because all he might know is Dracula, and how buff that vampire
can
> be.
>
> And the Kuei-Jin have only made a strong foothold in the Anarch States.
> Which is no real surprise. A highly organized, heirarchial organization
> suddenly surprising a group of unorganized, territorial, back-stabbing,
> Anarch factions of California? Wipe out the Camarilla (or even the
> Anarchs) -- doubtful. Permanently ingrain themselves into the landscape
of
> the American World of Darkness, and never be dislodged -- very likely.
>
> Sorry for the rambling. Hopefully, that made sense.
>
> Robert Kirkpatrick
So Robert Pedder didn't learn a damn thing about them during his
century-long reign as prince of Hong Kong? Oliver Thrace (a 6th gen Tremere
with Spirit Thaum and numerous rituals to interact with spirits- all this is
stated in the "World of Darkness" book) didn't learn anything worth passing
on during that same century? I guess the Camarilla really is incompetent.
Surely they would have picked up something just by being observant,
especially since the Kuei-jin are stated as not having a Masquerade...
Mike Tilly
news:393D843B...@netcom.ca...
> Damn the WoD isn't fair! Duhh.
If constructive replies were vampires, yours would be a 15th generation
quadruple amputee with severe hemophobia.
Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
the outcome of a conflict.
--
Angela Christine
>Sure they're designed for it, the books have gone to a great deal of trouble
>to explain how they're kicking anarch butt all over California. I'm still
>not sure how they're doing it though..
Maybe they are all highly trained ninjas? Their kung fu is mighty?
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Georgie porgie puddin pie,
kissed the girls and made them cry.
When the boys came out to play
he kissed them too, turns out he's gay!
Bruce Baugh
>Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
>should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
>coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
>between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
>likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
>the outcome of a conflict.
Whenever people say "kuei-jin overpower Cainites", we say "no, not
really, because while they're more powerful in some ways, they have
compensatory restrictions". People say "KotE is so racist and
stereotypical with its Asians-uber-alles stuff, how can any V:TM
character stand a chance?" We say "really, there is a balance, and it's
a fairly complex one, with trade-offs in various directions".
So now people discover the restrictions and say kuei-jin are too weak.
The irony is palpable.
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
Angela Christine
>century-long reign as prince of Hong Kong? Oliver Thrace (a 6th gen Tremere
>with Spirit Thaum and numerous rituals to interact with spirits- all this is
>stated in the "World of Darkness" book) didn't learn anything worth passing
>on during that same century? I guess the Camarilla really is incompetent.
>Surely they would have picked up something just by being observant,
>especially since the Kuei-jin are stated as not having a Masquerade...
Have they leaned anything about the Kuei-jin? Probably. Have the sent
newsletters about it to the anarch states? Doubtful.
Mant
> news:393D843B...@netcom.ca...
> > Damn the WoD isn't fair! Duhh.
>
> If constructive replies were vampires, yours would be a 15th
generation
> quadruple amputee with severe hemophobia.
>
the rules
> should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US
west
> coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-
wise
> between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is
more
> likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will
decide
> the outcome of a conflict.
There isn't a balance rules-wise. VSH has a section on how character
creation purely within VtM isn't balanced. Step beyond and it gets more
extreme. A starting Garou will shred a starting Kindred or Kuei-jin,
and almost anyone will take apart a mortal or hunter.
Conflicts in the WoD aren't like Street Fighter, two enemies don't just
go into an arena and duke it out. Kuei-jin could be beating the Anarchs
becuase they are better organised.
If you want a Balance reason perhaps its there to offset the fact Kuei-
jin get more innate powers than Kindred, or their Disciplines are more
flexable. More likely they are just different.
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mant
"rjk2000" <rjk...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Yeah, pretty much what Deirdre said. The main advantage that the
Kuei-Jin
> possess is that no one knows jack about them. They can appear to be
much
> stronger than they truly are, simply because no one knows anything
about
> them. The Camarilla knows what it's like to stomp all over some 13th
> Generation Caitiff thug, but what do you do to vampires that can
exist in
> the sunlight? To the Camarilla, this would seem unbelieveably
powerful.
> Population, stats, powers -- all of it is unknown.
It should work both ways though, the Kuei-jin should be just as
ignorant and worried, even if they aren't showing it. The recent source
material has been more balanced, but the KotE companion had
some /horrible/ stuff about K-Js going to Europe becuase it had the
most powerful Kindred, so they could kill them!
The Kuei-Jin should be as much out of their depth in the west as the
Kindred in the east are. Worse in a way becuase at least Kindred can
embrace the locals.
Also I would expect the Camarilla has through debreifed Pedder (former
Prince of Hong Kong) so they should have some ideas how the Kuei-jin
work.
>It's the Cold War,
> WOD-style. No one knows who has the most nuclear missiles, so
everyone
> treads lightly. IMO, this unknown quality is seriously lacking in
many of
> the games I see. Even a werewolf should be wary the first time they
meet a
> vampire, because all he might know is Dracula, and how buff that
vampire can
> be.
True, although the Great Leap Outwards isn't really a "cold" war, its
pretty hot.
> And the Kuei-Jin have only made a strong foothold in the Anarch
States.
> Which is no real surprise. A highly organized, heirarchial
organization
> suddenly surprising a group of unorganized, territorial, back-
stabbing,
> Anarch factions of California? Wipe out the Camarilla (or even the
> Anarchs) -- doubtful. Permanently ingrain themselves into the
landscape of
> the American World of Darkness, and never be dislodged -- very likely.
Not really. Nearly every new recruit has to come from back home, they
can just be ground down through attrition. The most likely to remain
permanatly in the west are though that "go native" and pick up Anrach
ideas like not following dumb orders from Elders.
Hell the Cammies might even cut a deal whereby they turn over any Kuei-
jin who pop up in Chinatowns in their cities, once they figure out
thats important to the Kuei-jin.
Mant
> Sorry for the rambling. Hopefully, that made sense.
>
> Robert Kirkpatrick
>
> Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@teleport.com> wrote in message
> news:393D9A41...@teleport.com...
> >
> > The lines really aren't balanced against each other, only within
> > themselves. At that, you don't see a huge degree of balance.
> >
> > As for the Kuei-Jin vs. Kindred, most of the conflict will have
nothing
> > to do with hand-to-hand combat or Discipline-flinging, and more to
do
> > with careful and subtle tactics.
> >
> > The Kuei-Jin, IMO, never really had a chance of winning, only of
> > becoming a huge thorn in the Camarilla's side for a time.
>
>
--
Mant
bruce...@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <8hk344$rgu$1...@cubacola.tninet.se>, "Mike Tilly"
<ti...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> >Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but
the rules
> >should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US
west
> >coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-
wise
> >between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is
more
> >likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue)
will decide
> >the outcome of a conflict.
>
> really, because while they're more powerful in some ways, they have
> compensatory restrictions". People say "KotE is so racist and
> stereotypical with its Asians-uber-alles stuff, how can any V:TM
> character stand a chance?" We say "really, there is a balance, and
it's
> a fairly complex one, with trade-offs in various directions".
>
> So now people discover the restrictions and say kuei-jin are too weak.
>
> The irony is palpable.
I guess you just can't please everyone ;)
I think they balance quite well. You have Disciplines with multiple
powers, but they cost a lot, often have restriction and are still quite
specialised compared to the common Kindred Disicplines. You have a
bunch of good inate abilites, but the P'o and the Kindred ability to
boost stats, Ghoul and sire.
There were some uber-twink combos you could pull off, but really if you
trust players thats not a problem. Besides the VSH pretty much put a
stop to them with the revised rules for KotE.
Mant
Erik Stutzman
Angela Christine <aca.Rem...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:393df35a...@news.telus.net...
> Rumor has it that "Erik Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net> wrote:
> >So Robert Pedder didn't learn a damn thing about them during his
> >century-long reign as prince of Hong Kong? Oliver Thrace (a 6th gen
Tremere
> >with Spirit Thaum and numerous rituals to interact with spirits- all this
is
> >stated in the "World of Darkness" book) didn't learn anything worth
passing
> >on during that same century? I guess the Camarilla really is incompetent.
> >Surely they would have picked up something just by being observant,
> >especially since the Kuei-jin are stated as not having a Masquerade...
>
> Have they leaned anything about the Kuei-jin? Probably. Have the sent
> newsletters about it to the anarch states? Doubtful.
So you're saying that the Camarilla would prefer pissed-off, dangerous Asian
vamps to irritating yet predicatable anarchs? "We'll let the punks get
slaughtered and let the Kuei-jin take over California! That'll show those
damn anarchs!"
I find it hard to believe that their reasoning would be THAT addled by
spite..
Bruce Baugh
>Have they leaned anything about the Kuei-jin? Probably. Have the sent
>newsletters about it to the anarch states? Doubtful.
And what they've learned comes filtered through their available frames
of reference - just like the misconceptions we see here when people
insist that Mage must work in Werewolf terms, say. I had a blast writing
the Lasombra stereotypes about the Cathayans.
Michael Mullin
others. But if you wanna balance everything... Mage should be worked over
again... even a 5th Gen Methusilah(sp?) isn't a match for an archmage
5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana study him.
Mike Tilly wrote:
> Michael Mullin <co...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:393D843B...@netcom.ca...
> > Damn the WoD isn't fair! Duhh.
>
> If constructive replies were vampires, yours would be a 15th generation
> quadruple amputee with severe hemophobia.
>
> Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
> should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
> coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
> between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
> likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
> the outcome of a conflict.
>
Michael Mullin
In this game the only winners are those who have fun, and the only losers are those who
don't. So maybe Kuei-jin arn't as powerful as regular Vamps... maybe they are more
powerful. In the Immortal words of the Rock "IT DOESN'T MATTER..."
Bruce Baugh wrote:
> In article <8hk344$rgu$1...@cubacola.tninet.se>, "Mike Tilly" <ti...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> >Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
> >should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
> >coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
> >between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
> >likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
> >the outcome of a conflict.
>
> Whenever people say "kuei-jin overpower Cainites", we say "no, not
> really, because while they're more powerful in some ways, they have
> compensatory restrictions". People say "KotE is so racist and
> stereotypical with its Asians-uber-alles stuff, how can any V:TM
> character stand a chance?" We say "really, there is a balance, and it's
> a fairly complex one, with trade-offs in various directions".
>
> So now people discover the restrictions and say kuei-jin are too weak.
>
> The irony is palpable.
>
Johnny Mayall
> Anyway... I'm not saying the World of Darkness should be fair, but the rules
> should. Or maybe you'd like the Kuei-jin to lose the war on the US west
> coast because they haver fewer dots? If you maintain a balance rules-wise
> between Kuei-jin and Kin-jin (or any two faction of the WoD), it is more
> likely that other things than rules (like plotting and intrigue) will decide
> the outcome of a conflict.
If you're going to attempt to determine the outcome of the West Coast
Kuei-jin vs. Yankee Imperialist Vampire Dogs by dots, at least have the
decency to factor in the /correct/ dots. Here's a hint: levels of
chi/blood and funky powers that the chicks dig aren't them.
--
Johnny Mayall But the lies we live will always be
joh...@prometheus.frii.com confessed in the stories we tell.
prometheus.frii.com/~johnny/ -Orson Scott Card
Johnny Mayall
> Angela Christine <aca.Rem...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:393df35a...@news.telus.net...
> > newsletters about it to the anarch states? Doubtful.
>
> vamps to irritating yet predicatable anarchs? "We'll let the punks get
> slaughtered and let the Kuei-jin take over California! That'll show those
> damn anarchs!"
The Camarilla would prefer the Camarilla to either. As such, they will
make decisions with that in mind. These decisions will most likely
involve letting both the Anarchs and the Kuei-jin fuck each other up as
much as possible while building up their own power.
> I find it hard to believe that their reasoning would be THAT addled by
> spite..
No, their reasoning is addled by arrogance. They have yet to dislodge
the Anarchs. Do you really think that they believe a few boatloads or
dumbshit newcomers will be able to do what they've been unable to?
pco...@my-deja.com
"Mike Tilly" <ti...@algonet.se> wrote:
> Is it just me, or is the Chi pool of Kuei-jin quite low compared to
the
> Blood pool of western vampires? Kuei-jin start with a total Chi pool
of a
> measly six, compared to ten for a kin-jin. Sure, their maximal Chi
pool
> could get as high as ten at Dharma level one, but raising Chi is
hard. I
> know you have to account for P'o too, but IMO it doesn't compensate
for the
> difference.
>
(which
> should roughly correspond to generation 8) still have a total of ten
Chi,
> while generation eight kin-jin have 15 points, and can on top of it
all
> spend one more point per turn.
>
> It gets worse the higher we go. A Bodhisattva, who only has 18 Chi
points to
> play with, wouldn't be much of a match for fifth or fourth generation
> vampire, with their 40-50 Blood points and 8-10 points/turn burn
rate. I
> guess the Bodhisattva would have to rely on his wickedly sharp twin
silver
> katanas, eh? ;)
>
> I'm sure The Most August of all Role Playing Game Creators have some
reason
> for this, but what? Any ideas?
Well, first of all, the chi pool of a Kuei-Jin is not limited to his
chi rating. He can have more blood of each type than he has dots, only
risking the minor danger of getting some aggravated if they botch rolls
that involve chi spending. Considering that most usages of chi envolve
no roll...
Actually, AFAIK, a kuei-jin has only a 20 bp limitation, and nothing
else. At any Dharma Level. It just gets safer each time.
Paulo Bruno Contopoulos
Bruce Baugh
>I think they balance quite well.
I do too.
>There were some uber-twink combos you could pull off, but really if you
>trust players thats not a problem.
And honestly, you can't stop such things. Make it possible to do
anything at all, and someone will figure out how to abuse it. Too many
gamers and game designers waste effort trying to close all loopholes, at
the expense of fun opportunities for the majority who aren't twinks.
Mant
bruce...@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <8hl2tf$j7k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mant <man...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> >There were some uber-twink combos you could pull off, but really if
you
> >trust players thats not a problem.
>
> And honestly, you can't stop such things. Make it possible to do
> anything at all, and someone will figure out how to abuse it. Too
many
> gamers and game designers waste effort trying to close all loopholes,
at
> the expense of fun opportunities for the majority who aren't twinks.
I don't think its the game designers job really, its the STs and the
players. I've seen complaints about Aberrant becuase you can build
invulnerable or mega-destructive characters but I just don't see it as
an issue, it comes with any flexable chargen, and the more power
avalaible the greater the abuse potential. Trying to limit it in the
rules always strikes me as coming across as not really trusting the
players, which shouldn't be what a game for mutual entertainment should
be about.
Storyteller's just say "No" ;)
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Mike Shannon
news:lQj%4.1446$vV5....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Kuei-Jin
> > possess is that no one knows jack about them. They can appear to be
much
> > stronger than they truly are, simply because no one knows anything about
> > them. The Camarilla knows what it's like to stomp all over some 13th
> > Generation Caitiff thug, but what do you do to vampires that can exist
in
> > the sunlight? To the Camarilla, this would seem unbelieveably powerful.
> > WOD-style. No one knows who has the most nuclear missiles, so everyone
> > treads lightly. IMO, this unknown quality is seriously lacking in many
of
> > the games I see. Even a werewolf should be wary the first time they
meet
> a
> > vampire, because all he might know is Dracula, and how buff that vampire
> can
> > be.
> >
> > Which is no real surprise. A highly organized, heirarchial organization
> > suddenly surprising a group of unorganized, territorial, back-stabbing,
> > Anarch factions of California? Wipe out the Camarilla (or even the
> > Anarchs) -- doubtful. Permanently ingrain themselves into the landscape
> of
> > the American World of Darkness, and never be dislodged -- very likely.
> >
> >
> > Robert Kirkpatrick
>
> century-long reign as prince of Hong Kong? Oliver Thrace (a 6th gen
Tremere
> with Spirit Thaum and numerous rituals to interact with spirits- all this
is
> stated in the "World of Darkness" book) didn't learn anything worth
passing
> on during that same century? I guess the Camarilla really is incompetent.
> Surely they would have picked up something just by being observant,
> especially since the Kuei-jin are stated as not having a Masquerade...
>
the butt? Or other types of spirits who are forced by the Vampire? I'm sure
in both cases you are going to get lots of useful, truthful information. And
they won't try to twist your words or do just what they have to to get free?
:)
Lets not think a Tremere with Spirit Thaum is like a Dreamspeaker or
Theurge. :)
>
>
Mike Shannon
players saying "this is not just how it works in MtA, but in WoD, because
MtA is so far superior to any of the other games." :)
--
Mike
Bruce Baugh <bruce...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:8hkuu3$298...@enews.newsguy.com...
> In article <393df35a...@news.telus.net>, aca.Rem...@telus.net
(Angela Christine) wrote:
>
> >Have they leaned anything about the Kuei-jin? Probably. Have the sent
> >newsletters about it to the anarch states? Doubtful.
>
> And what they've learned comes filtered through their available frames
> of reference - just like the misconceptions we see here when people
> insist that Mage must work in Werewolf terms, say. I had a blast writing
> the Lasombra stereotypes about the Cathayans.
>
>
Kish
Mike Shannon wrote in message <8hlsae$tnl$1...@nw001t.infi.net>...
>I find werewolf players saying "This is how it works in WtA", while Mage
>players saying "this is not just how it works in MtA, but in WoD, because
>MtA is so far superior to any of the other games." :)
>
I've probably known the largest number of people who try to cram all the games
into Mage, but, ime, most players have a favorite WoD game and try to cram all
the games into it. I know one guy who tries to explain everything in Wraith
terms. I can't think of any Werewolf-crammers I've met, but I'm sure there are
quite a few.
Alexander Bateman
>
> I do too.
And me.
> >There were some uber-twink combos you could pull off, but really if you
> >trust players thats not a problem.
>
> And honestly, you can't stop such things. Make it possible to do
> anything at all, and someone will figure out how to abuse it. Too many
> gamers and game designers waste effort trying to close all loopholes, at
> the expense of fun opportunities for the majority who aren't twinks.
While were On the subject, Blood and Silk was Great by the way.
Alex ;-)
Bruce Baugh
>I don't think its the game designers job really, its the STs and the
>players.
It's both. One thing I try to do in my writing is discuss consequences:
if you allow X, you get opportunities 1 and 2, but there will also
probably be 3 and 4, and if you don't like those, maybe you'll want to
restrict X. Conversely, if you like 2 and 3 but not 1 and 4, maybe doing
Y instead will help. I like to think that we owe customers that sort of
context.
Then each group can make informed decisions, knowing what we cannot
about how they play.
Mike Tilly
> Well, first of all, the chi pool of a Kuei-Jin is not limited to his
> chi rating. He can have more blood of each type than he has dots, only
> risking the minor danger of getting some aggravated if they botch rolls
> that involve chi spending. Considering that most usages of chi envolve
> no roll...
>
> Actually, AFAIK, a kuei-jin has only a 20 bp limitation, and nothing
> else. At any Dharma Level. It just gets safer each time.
>
> Paulo Bruno Contopoulos
Yes, you're right. It's described under Temporary Imbalance on p. 140 in
KotE.
You'd think that I would have noticed this after reading through the KotE
book five times. :/ With this in mind, I must say the rules are quite
balanced. I'm ashamed for ever doubting the Most August Creators of Role
Playing Games...
Mike Tilly
news:Pine.BSF.4.02A.10006...@prometheus.frii.com...
>
> If you're going to attempt to determine the outcome of the West Coast
> Kuei-jin vs. Yankee Imperialist Vampire Dogs by dots, at least have the
> decency to factor in the /correct/ dots. Here's a hint: levels of
> chi/blood and funky powers that the chicks dig aren't them.
If a western vampire could easily polish off his eastern enemies through raw
power, I'm sure a lot of them would gladly avoid time-consuming and tedious
intriguing with an enemy they know little about. While there are vampires
who'd plot and scheme just for the fun of it, they are ultimately quite
violent predators. If there's no terror balance keeping them back, I think
we'd see a lot of violent conflict instead of more interesting ways to solve
problems. I'm not saying it's just the Chi/blood pool that will decide the
outcome, but they will affect it. IMO, if you keep the rules balanced, it is
more likely that player interaction and not game mechanics will decide the
outcome of a conflict.
--
Nicolas Hughes
trouble
> >to explain how they're kicking anarch butt all over California. I'm still
> >not sure how they're doing it though..
>
> Maybe they are all highly trained ninjas? Their kung fu is mighty?
>
>
Think "Hit and Run" - how many Kindred can follow them when they do that
annoying "Drop a piece of Jade and Vanish" trick? Even beginning K-J have a
bunch of tricks that Kindred struggle to understand much less counter - so
maybe they just don't need bucketloads of Chi (but see my other post, they
are not really short of Chi at all IMO).
Nic
Nicolas Hughes
Mike Tilly <ti...@algonet.se> wrote in message
news:8hjq18$bg0$1...@cubacola.tninet.se...
> Is it just me, or is the Chi pool of Kuei-jin quite low compared to the
> Blood pool of western vampires? Kuei-jin start with a total Chi pool of a
> measly six, compared to ten for a kin-jin. Sure, their maximal Chi pool
> could get as high as ten at Dharma level one, but raising Chi is hard. I
> know you have to account for P'o too, but IMO it doesn't compensate for
the
> difference.
>
Well I guess the answer comes in two parts;
1) They are not limited to Chi of 6, its just that unlife can be a little
more *interesting* if they hold more than this. Plus, as you say, they
probably have another few points of Demon Chi anyway.
2) They are different games, why compare apples with antelopes in the first
place.
HTH HAND CHI
Nic
Mike Tilly
news:dex%4.904$PC4....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> 2) They are different games, why compare apples with antelopes in the
first
> place.
It's not like I'm not comparing Dungeons and Dragons with backgammon.
Besides, conflict between kuei-jin and western vampires is not uncommon, so
I think a little balancing to make things interesting is in place. As it
turns it, the games are balanced.
(re)flex
Bruce Baugh wrote in message <8hljv8$31o...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>In article <8hl2tf$j7k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mant <man...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>There were some uber-twink combos you could pull off, but really if you
>>trust players thats not a problem.
>
>And honestly, you can't stop such things. Make it possible to do
>anything at all, and someone will figure out how to abuse it. Too many
>gamers and game designers waste effort trying to close all loopholes, at
>the expense of fun opportunities for the majority who aren't twinks.
The most twinkish uber-combos don't even require any assembly on the part of
the players. The Lasombra meta-discipline (Arms of Ahriman or something
similar) that requires level 3 Obtenebration and Level 3 Potence easily
surpasses anything I've seen any player try and come up with in terms of
over-the-top ridiculous power.
And for the record, I thought Kuei-jin were malnourished wimps from the
get-go. ;)
Mike Shannon
--
Mike
Kish <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8hlt21$8hs$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
>century-long reign as prince of Hong Kong?
Being Prince of Hong Kong really doesn't allow much when your
opposition has been in place (literally) for milennia, and you are
a newcomer allowed in (but not to your knowledge) so that they
can get a good look at YOU.
>Oliver Thrace (a 6th gen Tremere with Spirit Thaum and numerous
>rituals to interact with spirits- all this is stated in the "World of
>Darkness" book) didn't learn anything worth passing on during
>that same century?
I'm sure he did, and if he wasn't hiding from any Cainite that comes
within 100 miles of his hideyhole in Korea (thanks to the Kuei-jin
and his paranoia due to the Week of Nightmares), I'm sure he
might say something...or he'd do his best to kill you and go back
to hiding. That is to say, yes, he did learn much. So much, he's
hiding out with the "opposition".
-Feyd (a blackguard)
"Feyd looking innocent is about as likely as a scorpion looking cuddly"-TTK
[I deny allegations of former A.G.S-F membership as thouroughly possible]
(plausible deniability? what a strange concept!)
Mant
bruce...@sff.net (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> In article <8hlr2q$5dd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mant <man...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>
> >I don't think its the game designers job really, its the STs and the
> >players.
>
> It's both. One thing I try to do in my writing is discuss
consequences:
> if you allow X, you get opportunities 1 and 2, but there will also
> probably be 3 and 4, and if you don't like those, maybe you'll want
to
> restrict X. Conversely, if you like 2 and 3 but not 1 and 4, maybe
doing
> Y instead will help. I like to think that we owe customers that sort
of
> context.
>
> Then each group can make informed decisions, knowing what we cannot
> about how they play.
I'll go with that, informing groups of potential consequences is
definately a Good Thing(tm) and quite different from the Thou Shalt Not
school of game design.
Bruce Baugh
>I'll go with that, informing groups of potential consequences is
>definately a Good Thing(tm) and quite different from the Thou Shalt Not
>school of game design.
I'm bored with commandments. Moses got a fine set and doesn't need me
adding any. On the other hand, gamers who want to have fun with a
particular style or setting or mood often do need some help, because the
desire to do it doesn't automatically translate into insight.
Nicolas Hughes
> Nicolas Hughes <nicolasD...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:dex%4.904$PC4....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> > 2) They are different games, why compare apples with antelopes in the
> first
> > place.
>
> It's not like I'm not comparing Dungeons and Dragons with backgammon.
> Besides, conflict between kuei-jin and western vampires is not uncommon,
so
> I think a little balancing to make things interesting is in place. As it
> turns it, the games are balanced.
>
They also come into conflict with Garou and Mages as well (not to mention
Hunters of course), do you worry about the size of *their* blood-pools? My
point being that they are different critters with different rules and there
is no simple way to say that one is "tougher" than the other.
Nic
Eric Tolle
> Think "Hit and Run" - how many Kindred can follow them when they do that
> annoying "Drop a piece of Jade and Vanish" trick? Even beginning K-J have a
> bunch of tricks that Kindred struggle to understand much less counter - so
Of course for that matter, the Kindred should also have a bunch of
tricks that the Kui-jin cannot understand, much less counter. But
if WW did that, it would reduce the "Kui-jin are taking over the
world" aspect.
Personally, I liked the bit of desperate retconning, where it
turned out that a Kui-jin team did _not_ wander through Europe
geeking princes at will- but just think they did. Ideally though,
the reaction to the both sides for the invasion would be "There's a
war going on?"
(Or as Corley would say: "They want to invade? Great- I'll sell
them Sunset Boulevard".)
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA,
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!
Eric Tolle
>
> 5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
> Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana study him.
Storyteller. OK...your mage explodes.
The balance is there, but on usenet discussions of "whose more
powerful", the elements that enforce that balance are generally
ignored.
Eric Tolle
>
> Mike Tilly wrote:
> The lines really aren't balanced against each other, only within
> themselves. At that, you don't see a huge degree of balance.
Actually, in some respects they are balanced- vampires have their
strengths, kui-jin have others. Ditto for weaknesses. A bit like
the mage/vampire contrast.
>
> As for the Kuei-Jin vs. Kindred, most of the conflict will have nothing
> to do with hand-to-hand combat or Discipline-flinging, and more to do
> with careful and subtle tactics.
Yeah. I tend to think that politicking will be more important then
combat, myself. Thought that won't appeal to some players.
"Look brother! Not only have I wrested a victory over the vampires,
I have acquired title to all of their real estate holdings in...what
is...Compton?"
> The Kuei-Jin, IMO, never really had a chance of winning, only of
> becoming a huge thorn in the Camarilla's side for a time.
And given the reality of California, I doubt they could "rule" it.
Nobody can. That's one of the main reasons the anarchs are
successful there.
I like the idea of Corley's that California will absorb the
invasion, just as it has everyone else who has come here, into it's
own particular melange of weirdness and deal-making. Within a
couple years, there won't be Kui-jin, merely Californians.
"Brother Chen, when you left us six months ago, you were the noblest
warrior I ever saw, a paragon of dharma. Now...now you have a cell
phone and an SUV- what the hell _happened_ to you?"
prei...@my-deja.com
> The Kuei-Jin should be as much out of their depth in the west as the
> Kindred in the east are.
Yup. Until elders who have been dealing with their own kind for
centuries realize that, hey, these guys _aren't_ just like us, each side
is going to have a lot of misunderstandings and mistakes. And we all
know how famously fast elder vampires change their habits...
> Also I would expect the Camarilla has through debreifed Pedder (former
> Prince of Hong Kong) so they should have some ideas how the Kuei-jin
> work.
Each side has probably captured and...experimented with...a few of the
other. My guess would be that they've each got a moderate idea what the
other can do, but there's the inertia problem to overcome.
> True, although the Great Leap Outwards isn't really a "cold" war, its
> pretty hot.
Is there actually much physical conflict? That's just not something
I've ever seen the Kuei-jin being able to do well in against the large
Cainite groups, largely because...
> Not really. Nearly every new recruit has to come from back home, they
> can just be ground down through attrition.
Quite.
IIRC, there are about 20,000 Kuei-jin in the world, and new ones
generally get a lifetime or so to tie up loose ends from their mortal
time - this suggests an average Kuei-jin lifespan of, say, 100 years.
If the population of Kuei-jin is fairly steady at 1 per 100,000 (giving
that 20,000 per 2,000,000,000 figure), there is one new one per
10,000,000 people per year, or about one Kuei-jin ready to join the
ranks every other day.
Of these, how many can be spared for this distant invasion? How many
are needed to deal with matters in Asia, or are _wanted_ to deal with
matters in Asia? One in ten being sent to California is probably high;
still, this gives a new recruit every three weeks.
In three weeks, a single Cainite can generate a veritable horde of loyal
vampiric and ghoulish servants. Each one may be less powerful than the
Kuei-jin, but a hundred years of unlife are no substitute for a hundred
barking guns. And those are just the potential forces of _one_ Cainite.
The Kuei-jin have (IMHO) very little chance of being able to actually
overpower the Cainites, even on their own turf, which is probably a
severe misunderstanding and mistake on their part.
Of course, much of the conflict is conducted via influence battles, and
here the waters get rather murkier - it's much harder to say what each
side can do. With the greater ability of the Cainites to risk and
engage in violent confrontations, though, they've got a powerful tool
that the Kuei-jin are much less able to make effective use of. It adds
an extra difficulty to your plans when being discovered risks having
several dozen cranky Brujah tear you or your hard-to-replace flunkies to
pieces.
And, finally, should the Kuei-jin ever seriously threaten the Cainites
in an area, the Cainites can pull a Sherman. Given a week undisturbed,
a lone Brujah could make an army of dozens of vampires and ghouls,
unleashing them in a screaming frenzy in the home territory of an
annoying group of Kuei-jin. If the Brujah slips away a night or two
before this happens, the sponsoring Cainite group has lost nothing more
than a week; the Kuei-jin have both a severe disruption and potential
battles to deal with. While new Brujah and ghouls aren't that powerful,
large numbers could certainly swarm and tear apart one or two isolated
Kuei-jin, above and beyond wreaking distressing havoc.
To help prevent "vampire bombs" like this from springing up in their
home areas, the Kuei-jin would have to beef up their internal and border
security, leaving even less resources free for their invasion. When
they receive only one replacement vampire every month, or two months, or
half-year, there's only so much the Kuei-jin in the invasion can risk
doing. Cainites have much less to worry about in that respect.
There's enough kewl powerz available to each supernatural that they
could, conceivably, influence humanity against the others. Since that's
arguably the most powerful force any of them have to content with, the
outcomes of the power struggles are uncertain enough that they can
result however one wants - "X can out-influence Y" arguments often hinge
on the unspoken "because _IMHO_ the powers of X are better than those of
Y." All fine and dandy, but not the solidest basis for a convincing
argument...
-P
Nicolas Hughes
Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote in message
news:393FFCDB...@silcom.com...
> Nicolas Hughes wrote:
>
> > Think "Hit and Run" - how many Kindred can follow them when they do that
> > annoying "Drop a piece of Jade and Vanish" trick? Even beginning K-J
have a
> > bunch of tricks that Kindred struggle to understand much less counter -
so
>
> Of course for that matter, the Kindred should also have a bunch of
> tricks that the Kui-jin cannot understand, much less counter. But
> if WW did that, it would reduce the "Kui-jin are taking over the
> world" aspect.
>
They do. Blood bonding for starters. To some extent I think the aggressor
has the upper hand with kooky powers, but the tables are turned as soon as
the other side regroups and counterattacks with their own kooky powers. The
ability to travel the umbra is *way* wierd from a Kindred perspective and
they have few defences against it. Similarly some of the blood tricks of
the Kindred (blood bonds, embracing lots of cannon fodder, ghouls) are
unfamiliar to the Kuei-Jin and their usual strategies may prove to be little
defence against such things.
Makes for an interesting conflict methinks, but they *still* don't have to
have equal "blood pools" to be a match for one-another.
Nic
Daniel Livingston
> Angela Christine <aca.Rem...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:393d9890...@news.telus.net...
> > Rumor has it that "Erik Stutzman" <sstu...@skyenet.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Sure they're designed for it, the books have gone to a great deal of
> trouble
> > >to explain how they're kicking anarch butt all over California. I'm still
> > >not sure how they're doing it though..
> >
> > Maybe they are all highly trained ninjas? Their kung fu is mighty?
> >
> >
>
> Think "Hit and Run" - how many Kindred can follow them when they do that
> annoying "Drop a piece of Jade and Vanish" trick? Even beginning K-J have a
> bunch of tricks that Kindred struggle to understand much less counter - so
> maybe they just don't need bucketloads of Chi (but see my other post, they
> are not really short of Chi at all IMO).
>
> Nic
Don't all Kuei-jin effectively have Celerity and Potence, at least at low
levels (and costly to use)? A dot or two of Celerity or Potence against a
Kindred without any is a major factor in a fight, and since any Kuei-jin can
whip it out when needed, wouldn't this give them a serious edge even in
toe-to-toe situations. Of course, when the Brujah come rolling in they better
get their asses out of there...
Dan
Mike Tilly
>
> They also come into conflict with Garou and Mages as well (not to mention
> Hunters of course), do you worry about the size of *their* blood-pools?
My
> point being that they are different critters with different rules and
there
> is no simple way to say that one is "tougher" than the other.
Again, the whole point of my original question was that I'd rather see
different supernaturals somewhat balanced rules- and dot-wise. There's not
much point in playing political games with an enemy you can easily crush
with raw power. If western vampires would discover that those strange asians
ran out of energy after three turns, they'd be an easy match. Werewolves
would probably not be so prone to violence against vampires if the vampires
could kick their hairy butts. I'm not trying to decide who's the meanest
ass-kicker.
And what do you mean, different rules? We're still talking the storyteller
system, with minor differences that can be easily overcome.
Mike Tilly
>
> The Kuei-jin have (IMHO) very little chance of being able to actually
> overpower the Cainites, even on their own turf, which is probably a
> severe misunderstanding and mistake on their part.
It can hardly be their intention to wipe out the vampiric population of the
west coast. That would be quite idiotic. AFAIK, they're out to establish a
presence there to have their say in the comic sixth age.
> Of course, much of the conflict is conducted via influence battles, and
> here the waters get rather murkier - it's much harder to say what each
> side can do. With the greater ability of the Cainites to risk and
> engage in violent confrontations, though, they've got a powerful tool
> that the Kuei-jin are much less able to make effective use of. It adds
> an extra difficulty to your plans when being discovered risks having
> several dozen cranky Brujah tear you or your hard-to-replace flunkies to
> pieces.
This kinda illustrates my original question about chi vs. blood. If one side
was weaker, they'd be phsyically overrun. Now (when I'm proven wrong :) )
we're having a much more interesting conflict than just Brujah badass vs.
Devil Tiger demon form.
> To help prevent "vampire bombs" like this from springing up in their
> home areas, the Kuei-jin would have to beef up their internal and border
> security, leaving even less resources free for their invasion. When
> they receive only one replacement vampire every month, or two months, or
> half-year, there's only so much the Kuei-jin in the invasion can risk
> doing. Cainites have much less to worry about in that respect.
It's not like Kuei-jin don't have servants themselves. I'm sure a Devil
tiger could bring in some bad-ass banes. Any Kuei-jin could probably get
some help from wraiths or spirits. Obligation can be just as effective as
Presence or Dominate.
> There's enough kewl powerz available to each supernatural that they
> could, conceivably, influence humanity against the others. Since that's
> arguably the most powerful force any of them have to content with, the
> outcomes of the power struggles are uncertain enough that they can
> result however one wants - "X can out-influence Y" arguments often hinge
> on the unspoken "because _IMHO_ the powers of X are better than those of
> Y." All fine and dandy, but not the solidest basis for a convincing
> argument...
If western vampires could pump more blood into their kewl powers, they'd
probably win. With the balance those powers will still be important, but
they won't decide the outcome alone.
Nicolas Hughes
> And what do you mean, different rules? We're still talking the storyteller
> system, with minor differences that can be easily overcome.
>
Mostly I mean the whole Spirit thing, which a tiny number of Kindred are
vaguely aware of yet which is a major palyground for the Kuei-Jin. Put
crudely, Kin-Jin have blood powers and Kuei-Jin have spirit powers, they
don't "balance" because they are utterly different in purpose and effect.
Strategically I think they will eventually come to some sort of stalemate -
probably along the lines of mutually assured destruction persuading the
elders of both sides to back off. Then it just becomes another cold war
battling for influence with just the occasional bit of bloodshed - like most
other faction fights in the WoD.
Nic
Araknid
>
>IIRC, there are about 20,000 Kuei-jin in the world, and new ones
>generally get a lifetime or so to tie up loose ends from their mortal
>time - this suggests an average Kuei-jin lifespan of, say, 100 years.
>
>If the population of Kuei-jin is fairly steady at 1 per 100,000 (giving
>that 20,000 per 2,000,000,000 figure), there is one new one per
>10,000,000 people per year, or about one Kuei-jin ready to join the
>ranks every other day.
>
>Of these, how many can be spared for this distant invasion? How many
>are needed to deal with matters in Asia, or are _wanted_ to deal with
>matters in Asia? One in ten being sent to California is probably high;
>still, this gives a new recruit every three weeks.
I agree that this should be the Kuei-jin's biggest weakness along with
culture shock ... how many young kuei-jin of the cannon-fodder variety
would want to become footsoldiers in this crusade? A great many might
leap at the chance to establish their own territories free from the
grasp of the 5 Courts' elders but why would they continue the fight
once they've acheived their personal goals (and grabbed a slice of the
LA pie). If further conflict meant sacrificing their gains why
wouldn't they "betray" the 5 Courts and seek a separate peace with the
local Cainites?
>In three weeks, a single Cainite can generate a veritable horde of loyal
>vampiric and ghoulish servants. Each one may be less powerful than the
>Kuei-jin, but a hundred years of unlife are no substitute for a hundred
>barking guns. And those are just the potential forces of _one_ Cainite.
One Cainite who doesn't give a damn about the Masquerade. A Cainite
who suddenly Embraces or ghouls scores of people and lets them loose
to kill his enemies is definitely not taking as much care as is
customary when Kindred create childer or ghouls. Ghouls should be a
factor but the impact of a Cainite with a band of carefully cultivated
ghouls would be many times greater than a vampire with two score
freshly ghouled thugs.
>The Kuei-jin have (IMHO) very little chance of being able to actually
>overpower the Cainites, even on their own turf, which is probably a
>severe misunderstanding and mistake on their part.
>
>Of course, much of the conflict is conducted via influence battles, and
>here the waters get rather murkier - it's much harder to say what each
>side can do. With the greater ability of the Cainites to risk and
>engage in violent confrontations, though, they've got a powerful tool
>that the Kuei-jin are much less able to make effective use of. It adds
>an extra difficulty to your plans when being discovered risks having
>several dozen cranky Brujah tear you or your hard-to-replace flunkies to
>pieces.
My reading of the Invasion material was that the Kuei-jin had several
wu's dedicated to performing acts of supernatural ultraviolence to
distract the Cainites from where the real threat was ... expanding
influence in the West through scarlet screens, financial investments,
etc. If the Anarchs (or Camarilla) think that they can win a vampiric
war by killing gun-toting Running Monkeys then it's no wonder the
Kuei-jin have been so successful thus far.
>And, finally, should the Kuei-jin ever seriously threaten the Cainites
>in an area, the Cainites can pull a Sherman. Given a week undisturbed,
>a lone Brujah could make an army of dozens of vampires and ghouls,
>unleashing them in a screaming frenzy in the home territory of an
>annoying group of Kuei-jin. If the Brujah slips away a night or two
>before this happens, the sponsoring Cainite group has lost nothing more
>than a week; the Kuei-jin have both a severe disruption and potential
>battles to deal with. While new Brujah and ghouls aren't that powerful,
>large numbers could certainly swarm and tear apart one or two isolated
>Kuei-jin, above and beyond wreaking distressing havoc.
That isn't pulling a Sherman ... he wasn't that stupid. The collapse
of the Masquerade would cost the Cainites /vastly/ more than letting
the Cathayans set up shop in California. Performing such a "vampire
bombing" would be like Sherman deciding that a good way to defeat the
Confederacy would be to invade Canada (and get the British Empire to
come in on the side of the South).
>To help prevent "vampire bombs" like this from springing up in their
>home areas, the Kuei-jin would have to beef up their internal and border
>security, leaving even less resources free for their invasion.
The numbers involved in the Californian phase of the Great Leap
Outward (perhaps 300 vampires each side) are way too low for "border
security" to have much meaning. With the millions of bodies moving
around Southern California how is one group of 300 going to stop
another group of 300 from slipping in mostly undetected in small
groups or individually?
The only way to detect inflitrators that aren't trying to be obvious
would be to look for the results of their actions. In a city with as
much stuff going on as LA that wouldn't be very reliable.
>When
>they receive only one replacement vampire every month, or two months, or
>half-year, there's only so much the Kuei-jin in the invasion can risk
>doing. Cainites have much less to worry about in that respect.
The numbers involved are so low that /what/ each vampire is doing mean
a great deal more than they would if this was a mortal war with
hundreds of thousands aside. A single vampire with influence in the
right area is worth more than 20 vampires running around with katanas
and MAC-10s. If the Kuei-jin are using the vampires they have more
efficiently and intelligently than the Cainites are then they will
continue to win.
As the Camarilla learns more about the Cathayans then they will be
able to focus their efforts more efficiently and the tide of the war
will probably turn.
>There's enough kewl powerz available to each supernatural that they
>could, conceivably, influence humanity against the others. Since that's
>arguably the most powerful force any of them have to content with, the
>outcomes of the power struggles are uncertain enough that they can
>result however one wants - "X can out-influence Y" arguments often hinge
>on the unspoken "because _IMHO_ the powers of X are better than those of
>Y." All fine and dandy, but not the solidest basis for a convincing
>argument...
Agreed. Victory due to better thinking, greater determination, better
use of available resources or even due to ironic accident make for a
better story than a recounting of the uses of assorted Discipline
powers.
Araknid.
Eric Tolle
>
> Strategically I think they will eventually come to some sort of stalemate -
> probably along the lines of mutually assured destruction persuading the
> elders of both sides to back off. Then it just becomes another cold war
Strategically, I think it will come dow to the Elders trying to
recall their troops, before California completely corrupts them.
"Yeah yeah, I'll come home- I just need to finish up this deal.
Look- can I call you back? I've got my agent on the
line. Kiss kiss."
prei...@my-deja.com
> LA pie). If further conflict meant sacrificing their gains why
> wouldn't they "betray" the 5 Courts and seek a separate peace with the
> local Cainites?
Now wouldn't that be interesting - many of the invading Kuei-jin decide
to ignore the 5 Courts and band together with the Anarchs to protect
themselves from both East and West.
I'm not sure _anyone_ would be too happy with that outcome...
> >In three weeks, a single Cainite can generate a veritable horde of
> >loyal vampiric and ghoulish servants. Each one may be less powerful
>
> One Cainite who doesn't give a damn about the Masquerade. A Cainite
Not necessarily. One could use some of those people society is _trying_
to ignore _anyway_ (homeless, addicts, gangs, ...); with the ultra-happy
World of Darkness setting, there's probably an ample supply, and they're
probably not too likely to be missed, given a little bit of care in
choosing.
> who suddenly Embraces or ghouls scores of people and lets them loose
> to kill his enemies is definitely not taking as much care as is
> customary when Kindred create childer or ghouls. Ghouls should be a
> factor but the impact of a Cainite with a band of carefully cultivated
> ghouls would be many times greater than a vampire with two score
> freshly ghouled thugs.
Most likely. It's hard to carefully cultivate a band of ghouls in a
week, though, but two score blood-bound thugs are possible. Take two
weeks, give 'em a crash course in Melee or Guns, and buy a bunch of axes
or shotguns at the local hardware stores. Voila - 4d+1 damage in melee
or 8d (or fire ammo) at range. They're not the hardest attacks to dodge
(most would be 3 dice), but one only has so many dodges in a round...
The "instant army of fanatics" trick is by no means the sovereign
solution to all problems, but it's useful, fairly fast and easy, and
pretty much any Cainite can do it. It's a tool that, IMHO, is likely to
skew straight-out fights against the Kuei-jin. Which is, I guess, part
of the reason they're probably not doing many...
> My reading of the Invasion material was that the Kuei-jin had several
> wu's dedicated to performing acts of supernatural ultraviolence to
> distract the Cainites from where the real threat was ... expanding
> influence in the West through scarlet screens, financial investments,
Given the influence-peddling focus of several of the clans, I would be
immensely surprised if this worked. It is, after all, one of the oldest
tricks in the book.
Heck, it's pretty much _in_ the book (Sun Tzu's, in this case -
something like "make a noise in the north and strike from the south").
It's debatable whether groups of Anarchs might fall for this, but I
doubt anyone else would.
> etc. If the Anarchs (or Camarilla) think that they can win a vampiric
> war by killing gun-toting Running Monkeys then it's no wonder the
> Kuei-jin have been so successful thus far.
Depending on how quickly they kill them, they might be able to - it's
not like they're a dime a dozen...
(Personally, I suspect the situation is what someone else suggested,
that the Kuei-jin are doing well mainly because they're fighting Anarchs
who have little or no organization or knowledge about these new
creatures. The Camarilla/Sabbat are probably content to let the Anarchs
and Kuei-jin beat on each other for a while before moving to thump
whoever staggers out of the dust cloud.)
> That isn't pulling a Sherman ... he wasn't that stupid. The collapse
> of the Masquerade would cost the Cainites /vastly/ more than letting
> the Cathayans set up shop in California. Performing such a "vampire
Given that this is a fairly mild and localized version of Sabbat
tactics, I don't know why you think it would collapse the Masquerade,
_especially_ since it would take place in Asia and most information
about it would have to come through the major news sources (and there's,
what, 5 people who control almost all of the US's newspapers? Tell me
there's no vampiric hand in there...). Even if information is leaked,
if the Camarilla can cover up the Sabbat's activities, this should be no
trouble whatsoever - make a few references to the Moro fanatics' attacks
on US Marines, a little skewed explanation of where the phrase "running
amok" came from, say some leading things about fanatical cults, drum up
some juicy domestic scandal, and voila. (I'm sure someone with a dice
pool of 14 for Spin Doctor could, and would, come up with better...)
Given that the Kuei-jin don't seem too worried about a Masquerade, there
probably wouldn't be much problem in Asia, either. Besides, it's pretty
much "some crazy guys with guns and machetes running around killing
people" - stuff like that happens in real life sometimes, and probably
rather more often in the WoD. The Camarilla would have to be run by
dufuses (dufi?) to not be able to cover that up or spin it to their
benefit.
> The numbers involved in the Californian phase of the Great Leap
> Outward (perhaps 300 vampires each side) are way too low for "border
> security" to have much meaning. With the millions of bodies moving
> around Southern California how is one group of 300 going to stop
> another group of 300 from slipping in mostly undetected in small
> groups or individually?
Customs agents and smugglers are both fairly small groups, but they tend
to run into each other fairly often. Add in some supernatural abilities
and vastly greater resources, and it's not so unreasonable.
There's not all that many different ways to go from Asia to California
or vice versa; commercial ships or flights can be checked fairly easily,
and unscheduled ones are likely to be detected and subject to search.
Some will slip through most likely, but attempts at border control are
not such absurd ideas as they might seem.
> hundreds of thousands aside. A single vampire with influence in the
> right area is worth more than 20 vampires running around with katanas
Not if those 20 vampires are running around in that single vampire's
haven. Physical confrontation is just another tool in the conflict;
IMHO, it may be one that gives Cainites an edge. Of course, getting
organized would likely give them _more_ of an edge - one can only wonder
why the Anarchs haven't formed up into a hierarchy... ;)
> Agreed. Victory due to better thinking, greater determination, better
> use of available resources or even due to ironic accident make for a
> better story than a recounting of the uses of assorted Discipline
> powers.
Often. Not much to add here - I just thought that was a more
appropriate thought to end on.
Araknid
>> The numbers involved in the Californian phase of the Great Leap
>> Outward (perhaps 300 vampires each side) are way too low for "border
>> security" to have much meaning. With the millions of bodies moving
>> around Southern California how is one group of 300 going to stop
>> another group of 300 from slipping in mostly undetected in small
>> groups or individually?
>
>Customs agents and smugglers are both fairly small groups, but they tend
>to run into each other fairly often. Add in some supernatural abilities
>and vastly greater resources, and it's not so unreasonable.
That's one model although I'd suspect that the US Coast Guard, Customs
and Immigration & Naturalization Service have far more resources
devoted to the problem of border security than almost any supernatural
group could afford to spend. As an idea of how much effort goes into
securing the borders of the US against smugglers etc my copy of Delta
Green lists their manpower and budgets (mid 1990s) as being:
US Coast Guard - approx 43,000 personnel and $2.7 billion.
US Customs Service - approx 17,000 personnel and $1.7 billion.
INS - approx 12,000 personnel and $1.5 billion.
Not all of that would be devoted to border security but the resources
involved are massive.
The other model would be guerrilla warfare the Russians in Afghanistan
... despite using minefields, sensors, dogs and thousands of troops
patrolling the Russians couldn't keep the Mujahideen from regularly
penetrating into Kabul. The Russians had a great deal more resources
devoted to the problem than a vampire faction could bring to bear
(especially if they have to keep things covert).
>There's not all that many different ways to go from Asia to California
>or vice versa; commercial ships or flights can be checked fairly easily,
>and unscheduled ones are likely to be detected and subject to search.
>Some will slip through most likely, but attempts at border control are
>not such absurd ideas as they might seem.
Any vampires interested in maintaining border security against other
vampires would be well served by establishing influence within the
existing arms of government devoted to the role. Other methods would
be untenable (such as getting together a bunch of vampires with Auspex
and having them aura scan the plane loads of people flying into LA).
The problem is that they'd have to be rather careful with their
suggestions to the police/Customs Service or risk a Masquerade
breach...
>> hundreds of thousands aside. A single vampire with influence in the
>> right area is worth more than 20 vampires running around with katanas
>
>Not if those 20 vampires are running around in that single vampire's
>haven. Physical confrontation is just another tool in the conflict;
>IMHO, it may be one that gives Cainites an edge.
You'd have to factor in intelligence gathering into the equation. The
vampire who enables you to point the 20 katana wielders in the
direction of a haven would be very valuable indeed.
The Cainites /should/ have the advantage in intel gathering ... they
have successfully held their positions for decades against other
Cainite factions such as the Sabbat who make extensive use of
infiltrators and scouting.
> Of course, getting
>organized would likely give them _more_ of an edge - one can only wonder
>why the Anarchs haven't formed up into a hierarchy... ;)
Forming a hierarchy would hardly be Anarchaic would it :)
Perhaps the physical destruction of the Anarch Free States will be the
catalyst that sees the Anarch movement grow into something more
organised - less pointless Anarchy and more a foreward thinking
modernist movement like the Bamboo Princes - young, clever and
dangerous. Something that provides a viable alternative for the savvy
young vampires looking at centuries of sucking hind teat in the
Camarilla or a few short years of suicidal lunacy in the Sabbat.
Araknid.
aetherson
"Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Mike Shannon wrote in message <8hlsae$tnl$1...@nw001t.infi.net>...
> >I find werewolf players saying "This is how it works in WtA", while
Mage
> >players saying "this is not just how it works in MtA, but in WoD,
because
> >MtA is so far superior to any of the other games." :)
> >
>
> I've probably known the largest number of people who try to cram all
the games
> into Mage, but, ime, most players have a favorite WoD game and try to
cram all
> the games into it. I know one guy who tries to explain everything in
Wraith
> terms. I can't think of any Werewolf-crammers I've met, but I'm sure
there are
> quite a few.
People have a strong tendancy to assume that the Triat dominates all
three games, and to force the Mage factions into Triatic terms
(Nephandi = Wyrm, Marauder = Wyld, Technomancer = Weaver). Which was,
I think, what Bruce was talking about.
And, for the record, people try to cram all the games into Mage because
Mage presents a very simple and easy-to-understand explanation for,
potentially, everything, be it supernatural or mundane. And, further,
once you admit Magi into your game, there's strong evidence that
they're, to some extent, correct.
Of course, the other games totally fly in the face of the Mage
Subjective Reality, but hey...
Mike (aetherson)
Mike Shannon
news:8i3kk5$nh8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8hlt21$8hs$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > Mike Shannon wrote in message <8hlsae$tnl$1...@nw001t.infi.net>...
> > >I find werewolf players saying "This is how it works in WtA", while
> Mage
> > >players saying "this is not just how it works in MtA, but in WoD,
> because
> > >MtA is so far superior to any of the other games." :)
> > >
> >
> > I've probably known the largest number of people who try to cram all
> the games
> > into Mage, but, ime, most players have a favorite WoD game and try to
> cram all
> > the games into it. I know one guy who tries to explain everything in
> Wraith
> > terms. I can't think of any Werewolf-crammers I've met, but I'm sure
> there are
> > quite a few.
>
> People have a strong tendancy to assume that the Triat dominates all
> three games, and to force the Mage factions into Triatic terms
> (Nephandi = Wyrm, Marauder = Wyld, Technomancer = Weaver). Which was,
> I think, what Bruce was talking about.
>
People have a strong tendancy to assume that consentual reality exists in
all three games and to force the other game lines into Mage terms, Avatar,
paragram. Which is what I was talking about. :)
> And, for the record, people try to cram all the games into Mage because
> Mage presents a very simple and easy-to-understand explanation for,
> potentially, everything, be it supernatural or mundane. And, further,
> once you admit Magi into your game, there's strong evidence that
> they're, to some extent, correct.
>
I think you might have been joking. "Very simple and easy-to-understand
explanation for, potentially, everything,"? What book was that? Mage is not
that easy to understand, although thanks to MtA rev. it is better. If you do
back flips you can could up with explanations for the things that Mage
doesn't handle well in regards to the rest of the WoD(it explains how its
own game functions as well as any other line). Like why the other supers
can't do magic even though sendings show non-humans can work magic. Why the
other supers don't have avatars, why they don't get paradox, why they aren't
bygones, how the Vhujunka exist. Sure you can explain it all, but the more
you try to explain the more complex it becomes and the harder to understand.
Each game's theories about how everything works, works best within its own
context.
The fact that hubris plays such a role in MtA, the subjectivity of their
magic,
and all the things a mage has such a hard time explaining, suggests that
they're wrong to some extent in the greater workings of WoD.
I think Mage players try to cram the other lines into MtA, for the same
reason Werewolf players do it, because it is their favorite game. All the
games explain how things work. I don't think any of them are any better or
any worst that any other.
Scott Staten
>
> In article <3940027F...@silcom.com>,
> Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> > Michael Mullin wrote:
> > >
> > > 5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
> > > Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana
> study him.
> >
> > Storyteller. OK...your mage explodes.
> >
> > The balance is there, but on usenet discussions of "whose more
> > powerful", the elements that enforce that balance are generally
> > ignored.
>
> into Jell-O isn't going to cause anyone to explode. Of course, the
> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
> what? Slim or none?
>
That's why a Changeling is more fun.
Primal 5
Actor 5
Turn Garou (BSD) into turnip.
It got amusing when the Pooka in question walked into the freehold, threw a
turnip down and said: "Thats a Turnip."
--
Scott
ICQ 6561915
sst...@erols.com
http://www.dragonmage.net/~scott/
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/sstaten/sstaten.html
NE:CiF Historical MUSH - netr.betterbox.net 6999
- http://netr.betterbox.net/
We are the music makers and we are the dreamers of dreams.
- Willy Wonka
aetherson
Michael Mullin <co...@netcom.ca> wrote:
> Who cares who is more powerful then who... who needs balance? Its a
roleplaying game.
> In this game the only winners are those who have fun, and the only
losers are those who
> don't. So maybe Kuei-jin arn't as powerful as regular Vamps... maybe
they are more
> powerful. In the Immortal words of the Rock "IT DOESN'T MATTER..."
Me! I care about balance.
Maybe this is a strange mode of play, these days, but my face-to-face
gaming almost invariably consists of a group of characters who are
basically cooperative, involved in an ensemble adventure. It's
important for each of them to get a chance to accomplish specific goals
in the pursuit of their shared objective. The game becomes boring for
me if another PC accomplishes 80% of the goals for our objective,
leaving only 20% for the rest of the group.
Now, in games in which there is not an ensemble objective, balance
becomes much less important to me, /unless/ the game features PC vs. PC
conflict in a fairly prominant role. Then I feel like I should have
some sort of level starting ground, so that our characters tactics are
what provide the difference between success and defeat.
I know it's fashionable in this day and age to dismiss "game balance"
as a wargaming legacy, but I think that doing so ignores the fact that
RPG's are /not/ merely excercises in shared storytelling, but that each
player is, ideally, personally attached to the role that he is playing,
and wishes to build a personal story as well as the ensemble story. If
everyone's in balance, that personal story can exist cooperatively with
the ensemble story ("Hey, remember that time when the Prince had
declared Blood Hunt on us, and I led those Brujah right into the Lupine
Caern in Central Park?"), but if the ensemble story does not have a
place for the personal story of a character, it's hard to stay
interested ("Say, you remember when that Prince had declared Blood Hunt
on us, and I uselessly took a few pokes at those Brujah before you
turned them into lawnchairs?").
aetherson
Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> Michael Mullin wrote:
> >
> > 5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
> > Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana
study him.
>
> Storyteller. OK...your mage explodes.
>
> The balance is there, but on usenet discussions of "whose more
> powerful", the elements that enforce that balance are generally
> ignored.
Actually, the 'Dox gained from a single instance of turning a Vampire
into Jell-O isn't going to cause anyone to explode. Of course, the
odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
what? Slim or none?
Mike (aetherson)
(Who isn't a fan of the high difficulty rating of Vulgar Magic)
Daemeon Lethe
worse. I have always felt that vulgar magic should be easier but much
more costly in paradox.
--
Regards;
Daemeon
aetherson
Daemeon Lethe <daemeo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8i3uq9$ulp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aetherson <aeth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Actually, the 'Dox gained from a single instance of turning a
Vampire
> > into Jell-O isn't going to cause anyone to explode. Of course, the
> > odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
> > what? Slim or none?
> >
> > Mike (aetherson)
> >
> > (Who isn't a fan of the high difficulty rating of Vulgar Magic)
> >
> Is that still true in revised? I don't own it but I hear paradox
is
> worse. I have always felt that vulgar magic should be easier but much
> more costly in paradox.
I believe that it is still true, yes. In Revised, you gain 'Dox whether
you're succesful or not for Vulgar Magic, and you gain more 'Dox, but
the difficulties are the same as 2e. I think.
Mike (aetherson)
Wade Lahoda
: Me! I care about balance.
[snip]
: I know it's fashionable in this day and age to dismiss "game balance"
: as a wargaming legacy, but I think that doing so ignores the fact that
: RPG's are /not/ merely excercises in shared storytelling, but that each
: player is, ideally, personally attached to the role that he is playing,
: and wishes to build a personal story as well as the ensemble story. If
: everyone's in balance, that personal story can exist cooperatively with
: the ensemble story ("Hey, remember that time when the Prince had
: declared Blood Hunt on us, and I led those Brujah right into the Lupine
: Caern in Central Park?"), but if the ensemble story does not have a
: place for the personal story of a character, it's hard to stay
: interested ("Say, you remember when that Prince had declared Blood Hunt
: on us, and I uselessly took a few pokes at those Brujah before you
: turned them into lawnchairs?").
Ahh...there does have to be a balance - in importance to plot.
Otherwise known as 'stage time'. This doesn't have to be power balance,
although if your game is highyl goal/strategy oriented, it usually will.
But how many times has a helpless child stolen the show on stage? Many,
many, many. Often, having a compelling story is more than a match for
having a powerful character... The other character might 'do' more...but
more stage/story time is spent on the less powerful character.
'Yes...General Karkoff orders the nuclear strike...now we will spend the
next hour watching little Susan soliloquise about the angst of not having
any friends her own age.' I do believe it is important to balance
stage/story time... General Karkoff will get just as irritated if his
nuclear strike gets written off with a 'yeah, consider it done' as little
Susan will get annoyed when answered with 'Whatever...your character's
actions aren't going to affect the plot, anyways...' Balance is
important. But whether power balance is nessisary to story balance
completely depends on your style of play...as I believe you did point
out in a way. ;)
Of course, one could just point out that it's silly trying to
balance power levels between different supernatural groups, and that's
why crossovers often are just plain silly... But that's a whole new
debate, which may/may not belong in this thread. Correction, an old worn
out debate, which may/may not belong in this thread...probably not.
A. Wade Lahoda
ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
aetherson
"Mike Shannon" <am...@trib.infi.net> wrote:
> aetherson <aeth...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8i3kk5$nh8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > People have a strong tendancy to assume that the Triat dominates all
> > three games, and to force the Mage factions into Triatic terms
> > (Nephandi = Wyrm, Marauder = Wyld, Technomancer = Weaver). Which
was,
> > I think, what Bruce was talking about.
> >
>
> People have a strong tendancy to assume that consentual reality
exists in
> all three games and to force the other game lines into Mage terms,
Avatar,
> paragram. Which is what I was talking about. :)
I know what you were talking about. You seemed confused by the notion
of Werewolf players forcing their viewpoint on the other games. I
provided an explanation.
> > And, for the record, people try to cram all the games into Mage
because
> > Mage presents a very simple and easy-to-understand explanation for,
> > potentially, everything, be it supernatural or mundane. And,
further,
> > once you admit Magi into your game, there's strong evidence that
> > they're, to some extent, correct.
> >
> I think you might have been joking. "Very simple and easy-to-
understand
> explanation for, potentially, everything,"?
"The only cause for all effects is human belief." I put it forward
that anyone who can not grasp this as a fundamental concept should be
kept away from pointy objects and choking hazards. There are frills
and elaborations and complexities, but the basic concept is quite
simple.
> What book was that? Mage is not
> that easy to understand, although thanks to MtA rev. it is better. If
you do
> back flips you can could up with explanations for the things that Mage
> doesn't handle well in regards to the rest of the WoD(it explains how
its
> own game functions as well as any other line). Like why the other
supers
> can't do magic even though sendings show non-humans can work magic.
<... yaddah yaddah yaddah ... snip>
Maybe you missed the paragraph below, conveniantly reprinted for your
reading enjoyment.
> > Of course, the other games totally fly in the face of the Mage
> > Subjective Reality, but hey...
Mike (aetherson)
aetherson
ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Wade Lahoda) wrote:
> Ahh...there does have to be a balance - in importance to plot.
> Otherwise known as 'stage time'.
Or spotlight time, yes.
> This doesn't have to be power balance,
> although if your game is highyl goal/strategy oriented, it usually
will.
> But how many times has a helpless child stolen the show on stage?
Many,
> many, many. Often, having a compelling story is more than a match
for
> having a powerful character... The other character might 'do'
more...but
> more stage/story time is spent on the less powerful character.
I don't exactly agree with this. Certainly, a 'powerful character'
might not actually be powerful in the context of the game. No matter
how high your combat stats are, if the game is primarily social, you
aren't actually powerful (unless you broker your combat abilities into
social status -- the roughest toughest mo'fo' in town).
But I think that the 'doing' is still the most important part. Long
periods of spotlight on somebody who's not getting anything done are,
bluntly, boring as hell. For everyone. It's, at its very best, a
chance for a player to soliliquize on his character, which I find non-
interesting except for astonishingly charismatic and insightful players.
> 'Yes...General Karkoff orders the nuclear strike...now we will spend
the
> next hour watching little Susan soliloquise about the angst of not
having
> any friends her own age.' I do believe it is important to balance
> stage/story time... General Karkoff will get just as irritated if
his
> nuclear strike gets written off with a 'yeah, consider it done' as
little
> Susan will get annoyed when answered with 'Whatever...your
character's
> actions aren't going to affect the plot, anyways...' Balance is
> important. But whether power balance is nessisary to story balance
> completely depends on your style of play...as I believe you did point
> out in a way. ;)
Simply put, if you're going to soliliquize on the angst of not having
any friends, write a book. I probably won't buy it. Now, wrap the
that concept of the angst of not having any friends into an interesting
conflict and resolution, and maybe I will. And yes, it is possible to
make that into a conflict/resolution within the context of an RPG --
but, I'd argue, anyone who's spawning a /lot/ of purely personal plots
that have no relevance for anyone else in the game, in typical Face-to-
face game where there's a group of 4-6 players sitting around a table,
is a selfish little bastard who ought to have been taught to share back
in kindergarten.
Personal plots are fine -- as an occaisional thing, or on a one-on-one
basis with the GM. Sucking up valuable game time in an effort to,
essentially, say, "Lookit my characters background! Aren't I brilliant
to have thought all this up?" is pre-school behaviour.
Unless, I guess, you really are brilliant. In which case it's not a
storytelling game, it's just storytelling, but that can be fun, too.
> Of course, one could just point out that it's silly trying to
> balance power levels between different supernatural groups, and
that's
> why crossovers often are just plain silly... But that's a whole new
> debate, which may/may not belong in this thread. Correction, an old
worn
> out debate, which may/may not belong in this thread...probably not.
Right, but the claim mutated from 'balance between games' to balance
within a game.
Mike (aetherson)
(Who's feeling a bit cranky this morning)
David Johnston
>
> In article <8i46du$eqa$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,
> "Mike Shannon" <am...@trib.infi.net> wrote:
> > aetherson <aeth...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:8i3kk5$nh8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com..
>
Note that they don't if you amend the Mage metaphysic to leave out
"human". Maybe humans don't believe in vampires, although of course
many humans do in the WoD. But that does mean that vampires don't
believe in vampires, that Cain doesn't believe in vampires, that "God"
doesn't believe in vampires...
Eric Tolle
>
> In article <3940027F...@silcom.com>,
> Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> > Michael Mullin wrote:
> > >
> > > 5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
> > > Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana
> study him.
> >
> > Storyteller. OK...your mage explodes.
> >
> > The balance is there, but on usenet discussions of "whose more
> > powerful", the elements that enforce that balance are generally
> > ignored.
>
> into Jell-O isn't going to cause anyone to explode. Of course, the
The Paradox depends on the version of Mage. In 2nd. edition there's
a fair chance that such a feat would turn a mage into mage flambe-
in MageRev, it's nearly a certainty.
> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
> what? Slim or none?
10+ successes, a level 5 vulgar rote...I'd make it into a ritual.
Of course if the Archmage can coax the vampire into his lair for tea
and cookies, and convince the vampire to sit still for the extent of
the ritual, then Paradox might not be a problem. Assuming of course
that MageRev hasn't defenstrated the Sanctuary background like it
did the Mentor and Library backgrounds.
> Mike (aetherson)
>
> (Who isn't a fan of the high difficulty rating of Vulgar Magic)
A viable alternative is to make vulgar magic easier, and make the
paradox consequences worse.
aetherson
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> aetherson wrote:
> >
> > > > Of course, the other games totally fly in the face of the Mage
> > > > Subjective Reality, but hey...
>
> Note that they don't if you amend the Mage metaphysic to leave out
> "human". Maybe humans don't believe in vampires, although of course
> many humans do in the WoD. But that does mean that vampires don't
> believe in vampires, that Cain doesn't believe in vampires, that "God"
> doesn't believe in vampires...
I disagree. They still fly in the face of the Mage metaphysic. Don't
get me wrong -- you can stretch the Mage metaphysic to work, but I think
it's a serious change. To go from your examples:
"But that doesn't mean that vampires don't believe in vampires..."
Sure, but the vampires don't constitute nearly as big of a voting bloc
as do, say, practitioners of Voudoun, or Christianity, or the like, and
those folks don't seem to get to do the wanton Vulgar acts that Vampires
can.
"That Cain doesn't believe in vampires, that 'God' doesn't believe in
vampires..."
By which I'm taking you to mean that some people might get higher voting
shares than others. But if there are entities out there who get a
voting power that's on some kind of par with billions of humans, then
I'd say that the Mage metaphysic is fundamentally different. It becomes
one of essentially static reality, that humans can sometimes alter --
much more like the Technomancer line than the Traditional one.
Mike (aetherson)
aetherson
Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> aetherson wrote:
> >
> > In article <3940027F...@silcom.com>,
> > Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com> wrote:
> > > Michael Mullin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 5th Gen: I attempt to dominate him.
> > > > Archmage: I turn him into Jello.... Still alive mind you I wana
> > study him.
> > >
> > > Storyteller. OK...your mage explodes.
> > >
> > > The balance is there, but on usenet discussions of "whose more
> > > powerful", the elements that enforce that balance are generally
> > > ignored.
> >
> > Actually, the 'Dox gained from a single instance of turning a
Vampire
> > into Jell-O isn't going to cause anyone to explode. Of course, the
>
> The Paradox depends on the version of Mage. In 2nd. edition there's
> a fair chance that such a feat would turn a mage into mage flambe-
> in MageRev, it's nearly a certainty.
Er? A succesful casting of Vulgar Magic, with or without witnesses, in
Mage 2 gives the casting Mage one, count-'em-one point of 'Dox.
If the Mage botches, granted, he gets 12 points of 'Dox. Which does
tend to sting, yes. Though an immediate backlash will only cause 4.8
levels of agg damage, on average.
But I don't regard any of that as terribly relevant, on the grounds that
if a Mage fails to immediately flambe an elder Vampire, the Mage is dead
before the Mage's next action comes 'round.
Under MRev, as I understand it, the Mage picks up 6 points of 'Dox
immediately, regardless of success or failure -- but I've also been
given to understand that bleeding off 5-ish points of 'Dox in MRev is
likely to do no more than a few levels of Bashing and a minor flaw.
But I don't have MRev, so I dunno.
<snip>
> > (Who isn't a fan of the high difficulty rating of Vulgar Magic)
>
> A viable alternative is to make vulgar magic easier, and make the
> paradox consequences worse.
Under the rules I'm currently writing for Mage, Vulgar Magic will be
exactly as hard as Coincidental Magic. Coincidental Magic will /always/
be delayed in taking effect, though, and Vulgar Magic will always give
fairly heavy 'Dox penalties.
I'm hoping this will make using Vulgar Magic a viable alternative.
Wade Lahoda
: I don't exactly agree with this. Certainly, a 'powerful character'
: might not actually be powerful in the context of the game. No matter
: how high your combat stats are, if the game is primarily social, you
: aren't actually powerful (unless you broker your combat abilities into
: social status -- the roughest toughest mo'fo' in town).
: But I think that the 'doing' is still the most important part. Long
: periods of spotlight on somebody who's not getting anything done are,
: bluntly, boring as hell. For everyone. It's, at its very best, a
: chance for a player to soliliquize on his character, which I find non-
: interesting except for astonishingly charismatic and insightful players.
[snip]
: Simply put, if you're going to soliliquize on the angst of not having
: any friends, write a book. I probably won't buy it. Now, wrap the
: that concept of the angst of not having any friends into an interesting
: conflict and resolution, and maybe I will. And yes, it is possible to
: make that into a conflict/resolution within the context of an RPG --
: but, I'd argue, anyone who's spawning a /lot/ of purely personal plots
: that have no relevance for anyone else in the game, in typical Face-to-
: face game where there's a group of 4-6 players sitting around a table,
: is a selfish little bastard who ought to have been taught to share back
: in kindergarten.
Oh...I completely agree. My examples were purposely absurd -
neither General 'I nuke New York cause I don't like it' Karkoff or little
"Listen to me whine about my social life" Susan are interesting
characters for the other players. It is an interactive game, afterall.
It doesn't matter whether the 'stage' is combat or angst, if it doesn't
involve others - or simply doesn't add to the plot - it's more or less
useless.
But...my point was that stats do not nessisarily have anything to
do with how critical your character is to the plot. You don't have to be
good at /anything/ to be interesting for yourself or for others. To take
the helpless child example...they may not be able to accomplish much in
the way of quantifiable 'accomplish objective B' goals...but they can
still get a lot of story done. There still has to be a reason for the
other characters to get involved, but that's often easy to come by. One
can move a plot forward through failure almost as well as one can by
success. ;)
What's important is making sure the characters all have something
to do. Equality in stats is only important in that it may/may not
open/close doors in terms of what the characters can do, but if you're
careful to provide for everyone, it won't be a problem. Just look at
freeform games - no stats, but a well-written freeform still makes sure
each character has plenty of plot to work through.
I might add that it isn't nessisarily important for a given
character to do things successfully - but it does need to be
interesting. And before anyone points this out, failure can become less
and less interesting all the time. ;)
I had more to say. But I've forgotten it. ;) Ahh well.
A. Wade Lahoda
ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
AJSolis
twenty points (ten of each) in their systems, they just have to feel up to
risking exploding like a frog in a microwave when they "overfeed."
aetherson
ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Wade Lahoda) wrote:
I agree. And, conversely, just because people do have "balanced" stats
doesn't mean that they're balanced in play. But I have found balanced
stats to be an enormously useful tool in working towards the goal of
balance in play. Generally, for someone who is noticably weaker in
statistics than another character to be equally effective in play
requires a plot or setting which hinges around that character for one
reason or another. Which works okay in one-shots, but poorly in
campaigns, in my experience. The statted character is more versatile
than the character who requires the crutch of the plot or setting.
Jess Heinig
presuming that the Consensus is all-consuming. The Consensus describes a
very general shape of reality but it is not entirely specific, absolute and
complete in and of itself. Sure, much of the shape of reality is dictated
by current human thought, but there are cracks in the pavement -- sometimes
the Consensus doesn't quite apply; sometimes weird things seem to escape.
Just another puzzle for mages to figure out.
Among other things, that does mean that from time to time something that
would be vulgar just isn't (like in sancta) or something that should work
doesn't (like computer code). It also means that things related to, but not
the same as humanity (like vampires), sometimes slip through those cracks.
Jess Heinig
Mage developer
WWGS
aetherson wrote:
aetherson
Jess Heinig <je...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> As I see it (and this is just another viewpoint), the mistake here
is in
> presuming that the Consensus is all-consuming. The Consensus
describes a
> very general shape of reality but it is not entirely specific,
absolute and
> complete in and of itself. Sure, much of the shape of reality is
dictated
> by current human thought, but there are cracks in the pavement --
sometimes
> the Consensus doesn't quite apply; sometimes weird things seem to
escape.
> Just another puzzle for mages to figure out.
> Among other things, that does mean that from time to time something
that
> would be vulgar just isn't (like in sancta) or something that should
work
> doesn't (like computer code). It also means that things related to,
but not
> the same as humanity (like vampires), sometimes slip through those
cracks.
I guess I'd take a somewhat similar view in a Mage crossover game (the
only crossover game I'm currently involved in, I'm playing a
Changeling, and could care less about the Magi). But, again, I don't
really regard this as making the other games fit into Mage, so much as
just saying that they can live in harmony.
David Johnston
> > "human". Maybe humans don't believe in vampires, although of course
> > many humans do in the WoD. But that does mean that vampires don't
> > believe in vampires, that Cain doesn't believe in vampires, that "God"
> > doesn't believe in vampires...
>
> I disagree. They still fly in the face of the Mage metaphysic. Don't
> get me wrong -- you can stretch the Mage metaphysic to work, but I think
> it's a serious change. To go from your examples:
>
> "But that doesn't mean that vampires don't believe in vampires..."
>
> Sure, but the vampires don't constitute nearly as big of a voting bloc
> as do, say, practitioners of Voudoun, or Christianity, or the like, and
> those folks don't seem to get to do the wanton Vulgar acts that Vampires
> can.
>
There is no reason to think that one person necessarily equals one vote
in the Mage metaphysic. It makes sense to me that more powerful
beings with a greater degree of certainty get more of a vote, and that it
takes more belief to totally wish someone out of existence as opposed to
just restricting their power some, and that it takes more belief to take
away a power already possessed than it does to not give people powers they
don't already have. Nobody believes that vampires have tight limitations
on the blatancy of their power. They believe vampires don't exist.
(And, incidentally, vampires and their ghouls DO constitute a bigger voting
bloc than either practitioners of Voudoun or practitioners of Christianity
who expect drastic biblical level miracles. The most that average believers
expect is "healing by touch", and unsurprisingly, there are faith healers who
actually work in the WoD, just as there are vampires.)
Eric Tolle
> > The Paradox depends on the version of Mage. In 2nd. edition there's
> > a fair chance that such a feat would turn a mage into mage flambe-
> > in MageRev, it's nearly a certainty.
>
> Er? A succesful casting of Vulgar Magic, with or without witnesses, in
> Mage 2 gives the casting Mage one, count-'em-one point of 'Dox.
I assumed that it would require an extended vulgar ritual- where
Paradox stacks, and there's a good chance of failure. I don't want
to see the PC mage that can turn a vampire into Jell-O in one fell
swoop.
> But I don't regard any of that as terribly relevant, on the grounds that
> if a Mage fails to immediately flambe an elder Vampire, the Mage is dead
> before the Mage's next action comes 'round.
There's that, yes.
> given to understand that bleeding off 5-ish points of 'Dox in MRev is
> likely to do no more than a few levels of Bashing and a minor flaw.
So he ends up looking like a Warner Character that's been blown up.
;')
> But I don't have MRev, so I dunno.
I don't have the book handy myself. Perhaps someone else can
helpfully recite chapter and verse.
> Under the rules I'm currently writing for Mage, Vulgar Magic will be
> exactly as hard as Coincidental Magic. Coincidental Magic will /always/
> be delayed in taking effect, though, and Vulgar Magic will always give
> fairly heavy 'Dox penalties.
I kind of like that version- the coincidence having to wait for the
right conditions I take it?
>
> I'm hoping this will make using Vulgar Magic a viable alternative.
Methods to make vulgar magic more desirable are a good thing, AFAIC.
aetherson
I think I addressed this in the paragraph just after the one you quoted.
In addition, I should note that it's already different from the Mage
Paradigm to think of the Consensus as having to affirmatively remove
Vampire's powers, over some level of resistance. The "pure Mage" line
would be that unless people affirmatively believe that Vampires do
exist and do have these powers, they don't exist.
> (And, incidentally, vampires and their ghouls DO constitute a bigger
voting
> bloc than either practitioners of Voudoun or practitioners of
Christianity
> who expect drastic biblical level miracles. The most that average
believers
> expect is "healing by touch", and unsurprisingly, there are faith
healers who
> actually work in the WoD, just as there are vampires.)
I honestly have no idea the census numbers that Whitewolf is quoting
for Vampires, Ghouls, or Magi, at this stage.
David Johnston
So unless people (non-Andorran people) affirmatively believe that
Andorrans exist, Andorra and the Andorrans don't exist regardless of
what the Andorrans think?
Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
The last entry above is essential to this argument.
It takes more than some people not actively believeing to effect
Consensual Reality. To use the above quote, just because non-Andorrans
don't know that Andorra exists, does not mean it doesn't exist.
They would have to actually *believe* that Andorra does not exist
in order for it to have any effect.
There is a difference between "I firmly believe vampires do not exist!"
and "Vampires? Aren't those myths?"
There are two extremes here: active belief and active disbelief.
In order for Consensual Reality to "remove" vampires, a large
majority of the sentient population of the planet would have
to *actively disbelieve* in them. However, vampires, thier ghouls,
those mortals and other supernaturals who know about them
in effect *actively believe* in them. And really, how hard it is
for the subconscious of someone who has a limited ability to twist
reality to say "well, I can do this, so I guess it's possible for things
like vampires to exist too."
The grey area in between active belief and active disbelief is the
playground of the subconscious, and the effects of the subconscious
on Consensual Reality cannot be discounted.
That is to say, Mages, by the very act of *knowing what they are
and can do* stretch the bounds of reality enough for other supernatural
creatures/entities to exist as well.
Belief and disbelief are not black and white. To use Christianism for
an example, with a nod towards Catch-22..."the god I don't beleive in
is a kind and just god, not a cruel and vicious god like you make him
out to be." *Consciously*, a person may choose to disbelieve something,
but that does not mean that their subconscious agrees.
This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the Technocracy
forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
-Feyd (a blackguard)
"Feyd looking innocent is about as likely as a scorpion looking cuddly"-TTK
[I deny allegations of former A.G.S-F membership as thouroughly possible]
(plausible deniability? what a strange concept!)
David Johnston
> This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the Technocracy
> forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
Whatever that means. I mean, honestly, before you decide who lost
the Ascension War, you'd have to set victory conditions. If your
victory conditions are "Totally annihilate all opposition permanently"
nobody has ever won a war no matter how much they kicked the other side's
ass.
Mant
> vote
> > in the Mage metaphysic. It makes sense to me that more powerful
> > beings with a greater degree of certainty get more of a vote, and
> that it
> > takes more belief to totally wish someone out of existence as
opposed
> to
> > just restricting their power some, and that it takes more belief to
> take
> > away a power already possessed than it does to not give people
powers
> they
> > don't already have. Nobody believes that vampires have tight
> limitations
> > on the blatancy of their power. They believe vampires don't exist.
>
> I think I addressed this in the paragraph just after the one you
quoted.
>
> In addition, I should note that it's already different from the Mage
> Paradigm to think of the Consensus as having to affirmatively remove
> Vampire's powers, over some level of resistance. The "pure Mage" line
> would be that unless people affirmatively believe that Vampires do
> exist and do have these powers, they don't exist.
There are references to the Consensus having inertia though, if people
once beleived in vampires with powers they exited. If later disbeleif
doesn't actively get rid of them, they can still be around.
Of course V:tM vampires don't match vampire legends at all, so it
doesn't really help explain them ;)
> > (And, incidentally, vampires and their ghouls DO constitute a bigger
> voting
> > bloc than either practitioners of Voudoun or practitioners of
> Christianity
> > who expect drastic biblical level miracles. The most that average
> believers
> > expect is "healing by touch", and unsurprisingly, there are faith
> healers who
> > actually work in the WoD, just as there are vampires.)
>
> I honestly have no idea the census numbers that Whitewolf is quoting
> for Vampires, Ghouls, or Magi, at this stage.
IIRC about 40,000 Canities, 20,000 Kuei-Jin, and between 2,000 and
10,000 Mages.
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Mant
fey...@aol.comspamtrap (Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen) wrote:
<snip>
> This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the Technocracy
> forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
There is also the problem of conflicting beleifs. In any large urban
area you will get religious people of various denominations, aetheists,
agnostiscs, rationalists and superstitious people. How is this suppoed
to resolve itself into a single, consistent set of laws for reality?
If two groups of people beleive different things and live in the same
area, what does the local consensus support? One belief? Both? Neither?
Its easy to see why it might have grey areas and cracks. Its easy to
get people to beleive in something, but almost impossible to stop other
people from beleiving something different, particularly in the modern
age where ideas communicate so quickly. The Ascention War could have
simply clogged up with all these competing ideas which never actually
go aways. Frighteningly the only way left is something like the Bei Dei
plan, wipe out most of mankind to "reset" the consensus.
Mant
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
>
> > This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the Technocracy
> > forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
>
> the Ascension War, you'd have to set victory conditions. If your
> victory conditions are "Totally annihilate all opposition permanently"
> nobody has ever won a war no matter how much they kicked the other
side's
> ass.
If the point of the A-War was "get the masses to beleive what we want"
then its clearly still going on, as Mages are still trying to do this.
I never saw it suggested anywhere that the Trads wanted the Mythic age
back or wanted to change the world all at once in one big sweeping act.
The presence, or lack, of Masters and various Chantries really means
squat in terms of the war for the hearts and minds of sleepers.
It is possible though the Consensus has simply clogged up with
competing ideas. The Technocracy has had great success pushing science
and technology, but religion and superstition are very cleary a major
part in the lives of a majority of mankind, and are not going anywhere.
Araknid
wrote:
>aetherson wrote:
>
>> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
>> what? Slim or none?
>
>10+ successes, a level 5 vulgar rote...I'd make it into a ritual.
>Of course if the Archmage can coax the vampire into his lair for tea
>and cookies, and convince the vampire to sit still for the extent of
>the ritual, then Paradox might not be a problem. Assuming of course
>that MageRev hasn't defenstrated the Sanctuary background like it
>did the Mentor and Library backgrounds.
As an exercise in alcohol enhanced reasoning and ignoring the question
of what kind of paradigm a mage would require to cover death by Jell-O
transmutation...
IMHO the rote would be Life 5, Matter 5 (with Correspondence 5 to do
it safely at range). A Life 5, Matter 2 rote could turn a mundane into
stone - so if you up the Matter rating required to meet the "must use
Matter equal to Life in order to affect the undead" rule you have the
rote.
Make it vulgar w/ witness if the vampire Jell-O-fies in public or
vulgar w/o witness if done at high noon when the vampire is locked in
his haven. So it could be base difficulty 9. Adding in Correspondence
5 would add to the successes required but would allow all sorts of
things to be done to reduce target numbers as well as increase the
odds of the mage getting away with it. Cast from a node, spend
quintessence, take extra time, take advantage of specialised foci ...
well spent effort could make the difficulty 6.
Successes required would be 1 to effect another pattern, 1 or 2 for
the Correspondnce range assuming the mage had a blood sample from the
vampire or a prized possession up to 4 if the mage is merely casually
familiar with the vampire. A further 4 successes would be required to
do enough "damage" to kill the vampire (since turning someone into
Jell-O is simply an inane way of killing them). So somewhere between 6
- 11 successes would cover this.
I'd allow Fortitude to soak the direct pattern "aggravated damage" of
the Jell-O transmutation so a tough vampire could survive partially
transformed. Countermagic from Thaumaturgy etc would be an even more
effective defense if the vampire was awake enough to use it. A mage
could opt to accumulate more successes to "over-damage" the target to
make sure they succeed.
The paradox a mage would receive if successful would be 5 points
assuming vulgar w/o witness - 5 dice bashing damage and a minorly
annoying flaw for a minute or two. If someone witnessed the
transformation it would result in 6 paradox points - 6 dice bashing
damage and a more annoying flaw. If the mage botched however they
could generate truly astounding amounts of paradox depending on the
number of rolls made thus far in the ritual ... this kind of magic is
the kind that could give a careless mage one of those 21+ point "Kiss
Ass Goodbye" backlashes. Since having anyone interrupt the ritual
requires the mage to make a difficulty 8 Willpower roll of suffer a
botch this could be happen failry easily.
Turning a vampire into Jell-O seems like a Really Stupid Thing To Do.
A vulgar Prime 2, Correspondence 2 zap spell is much more likely to
result in a dead vampire, as is a coincidental Forces 3,
Correspondence 3 "The house burnt down, damn shoddy wiring" spell.
Both of these are more likely to be doable in a given mage's magical
style and both are much less likely to result in the Storyteller
dropping an elephant on the character's head (or bouncing a drink can
off the player's).
Araknid.
Mant
araknidm...@hotmail.com (Araknid) wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:25:51 -0700, Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >aetherson wrote:
> >
> >> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
> >> what? Slim or none?
> >
> >10+ successes, a level 5 vulgar rote...I'd make it into a ritual.
> >Of course if the Archmage can coax the vampire into his lair for tea
> >and cookies, and convince the vampire to sit still for the extent of
> >the ritual, then Paradox might not be a problem. Assuming of course
> >that MageRev hasn't defenstrated the Sanctuary background like it
> >did the Mentor and Library backgrounds.
>
> As an exercise in alcohol enhanced reasoning and ignoring the question
> of what kind of paradigm a mage would require to cover death by Jell-O
> transmutation...
Almost any paradgim /could/ do it if you know the True Name/Source
Code/Etheric vibrations or whatever your paradgim needs of the Jello.
The Trad and Techno paradgims are flexable enough that any effect that
can be though up /can/ be done given some time (nobody could beat
Blake's challenge on the newsgroup). Its just most aren't likely to do
such outlandish things.
> IMHO the rote would be Life 5, Matter 5 (with Correspondence 5 to do
> it safely at range). A Life 5, Matter 2 rote could turn a mundane into
> stone - so if you up the Matter rating required to meet the "must use
> Matter equal to Life in order to affect the undead" rule you have the
> rote.
Where was that from? I aways though you simply treated them as both, so
needed the Spheres at apropriate level as the levels are not quite the
same. Matter 4 covers complex Matter Pattern for Transformation,
although you could rule a vampire is an "impossible" Matter pattern and
so need Matter 5.
> Make it vulgar w/ witness if the vampire Jell-O-fies in public or
> vulgar w/o witness if done at high noon when the vampire is locked in
> his haven. So it could be base difficulty 9. Adding in Correspondence
> 5 would add to the successes required but would allow all sorts of
> things to be done to reduce target numbers as well as increase the
> odds of the mage getting away with it.
Why Correspondence 5? Surely two would be enough. If you can scry on
the target you can zap 'em with magick. Or is this an MRev thing, need
Correspondence as high as the Sphere you are using?
> Cast from a node, spend
> quintessence, take extra time, take advantage of specialised foci ...
> well spent effort could make the difficulty 6.
>
> Successes required would be 1 to effect another pattern,
Is that from MRev? M2 one success is never enough to effect something
else. And trasformations are 5+ successes.
> 1 or 2 for
> the Correspondnce range assuming the mage had a blood sample from the
> vampire or a prized possession up to 4 if the mage is merely casually
> familiar with the vampire. A further 4 successes would be required to
> do enough "damage" to kill the vampire (since turning someone into
> Jell-O is simply an inane way of killing them).
Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect will
wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
thinking in M2 terms though.
Question, is a vampire with the Eat Food Merit eats a vampire turned to
Jello, is that Diablerie?
> So somewhere between 6
> - 11 successes would cover this.
Duration?
> I'd allow Fortitude to soak the direct pattern "aggravated damage" of
> the Jell-O transmutation so a tough vampire could survive partially
> transformed.
Half vampire, half jelly?
Really this is just a more edible version of the old Lawn Chair
argument.
Mirober
>
>If the point of the A-War was "get the masses to beleive what we want"
>then its clearly still going on, as Mages are still trying to do this.
>I never saw it suggested anywhere that the Trads wanted the Mythic age
>back or wanted to change the world all at once in one big sweeping act.
>
>The presence, or lack, of Masters and various Chantries really means
>squat in terms of the war for the hearts and minds of sleepers.
>
>It is possible though the Consensus has simply clogged up with
>competing ideas. The Technocracy has had great success pushing science
>and technology, but religion and superstition are very cleary a major
>part in the lives of a majority of mankind, and are not going anywhere.
This would suggest there are more competing ideas than in the past. I
think the problem lies more with previous ideas (science, religion,
magic) becoming increasingly opposed to one another (due to
manipulations on both sides of the A-War). In the past they were able
to more or less coexist with one another. In the modern WoD, they have
become almost an all or nothing choice, which has created the current
stoppage of progress.
Then there is my pet theory about humanity just becoming resistant to
the manipulations of the supernaturals, which has been misinterpreted
as apathy by the Mage community.
__
Matt Roberts
http://www.cybermesa.com/~mirober/main.html
"Please Don't Feed the Screen Monkey."
- South West Gamers Association Motto
Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
>> forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
>
>Whatever that means. I mean, honestly, before you decide who lost
>the Ascension War, you'd have to set victory conditions. If your
>victory conditions are "Totally annihilate all opposition permanently"
>nobody has ever won a war no matter how much they kicked the other side's
>ass.
The Ascension War had nothing to do with who kicked whose ass,
but rather, whose paradigm was successfully adopted by Consensual
Reality.
The Technocracy attempted to install technology as the defining parameters
of "magick", but failed to get the conditions they required of the paradigm
adopted, and therefore can be said to have lost by default, although the
paradigm they *thought* they wanted was successfully shifted to.
-feyd
Bruce Baugh
Mages don't know everything about how the universe works. It becomes
problematic only when you insist that the parts of the universe that
Mages understand must trump all others.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> bruce...@spiretech.com
Web pages offline for the duration of current medical regimen.
aetherson
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> aetherson wrote:
> >
> > I think I addressed this in the paragraph just after the one you
quoted.
> >
> > In addition, I should note that it's already different from the Mage
> > Paradigm to think of the Consensus as having to affirmatively remove
> > Vampire's powers, over some level of resistance. The "pure Mage"
line
> > would be that unless people affirmatively believe that Vampires do
> > exist and do have these powers, they don't exist.
>
> Andorrans exist, Andorra and the Andorrans don't exist regardless of
> what the Andorrans think?
People believe that there are cute little countries with no power,
economy, or world significance. That should manage it.
In addition, it's a flawed analogy because Andorra's existance or lack
thereof is not an issue of physical law, even under fairly broad
definitions thereof (but not universally broad definitions).
Mike (aetherson)
aetherson
Mant <man...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > 1 or 2 for
> > the Correspondnce range assuming the mage had a blood sample from
the
> > vampire or a prized possession up to 4 if the mage is merely
casually
> > familiar with the vampire. A further 4 successes would be required
to
> > do enough "damage" to kill the vampire (since turning someone into
> > Jell-O is simply an inane way of killing them).
>
> Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect
will
> wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
> transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
> thinking in M2 terms though.
>
> Question, is a vampire with the Eat Food Merit eats a vampire turned
to
> Jello, is that Diablerie?
>
> > So somewhere between 6
> > - 11 successes would cover this.
>
> Duration?
Well, I think the advantage of doing it like damage, and thus giving
them an opportunity to maybe soak, is that you don't need duration, any
more than you need duration on a fireball. It's essentially a really
stupid fireball with a special-effect ending and massively overpowered
Spheres required, right?
Or maybe I play too much GURPS.
David Johnston
>
> >> This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the Technocracy
> >> forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the Ascension War.
> >
> >Whatever that means. I mean, honestly, before you decide who lost
> >the Ascension War, you'd have to set victory conditions. If your
> >victory conditions are "Totally annihilate all opposition permanently"
> >nobody has ever won a war no matter how much they kicked the other side's
> >ass.
>
> The Ascension War had nothing to do with who kicked whose ass,
> but rather, whose paradigm was successfully adopted by Consensual
> Reality.
And the Technocracy's paradigm was successfully adopted by Consensual
Reality.
>
> The Technocracy attempted to install technology as the defining parameters
> of "magick", but failed to get the conditions they required of the paradigm
> adopted, and therefore can be said to have lost by default, although the
> paradigm they *thought* they wanted was successfully shifted to.
So the only reason why they can be said to have lost is because they
chose totally unrealistic and unachievable victory conditions.
David Johnston
>
> In article <8i96uf$p02$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> aetherson <aeth...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <3947ED...@telusplanet.net>,
> > > There is no reason to think that one person necessarily equals one
> > vote
> > > in the Mage metaphysic. It makes sense to me that more powerful
> > > beings with a greater degree of certainty get more of a vote, and
> > that it
> > > takes more belief to totally wish someone out of existence as
> opposed
> > to
> > > just restricting their power some, and that it takes more belief to
> > take
> > > away a power already possessed than it does to not give people
> powers
> > they
> > > don't already have. Nobody believes that vampires have tight
> > limitations
> > > on the blatancy of their power. They believe vampires don't exist.
> >
> quoted.
> >
> > In addition, I should note that it's already different from the Mage
> > Paradigm to think of the Consensus as having to affirmatively remove
> > Vampire's powers, over some level of resistance. The "pure Mage" line
> > would be that unless people affirmatively believe that Vampires do
> > exist and do have these powers, they don't exist.
>
> once beleived in vampires with powers they exited. If later disbeleif
> doesn't actively get rid of them, they can still be around.
>
> Of course V:tM vampires don't match vampire legends at all, so it
> doesn't really help explain them ;)
Vampire legends are so inconsistent and varied that there's a lot of
flex.
Angela Christine
>On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:25:51 -0700, Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com>
>wrote:
>>aetherson wrote:
>>
>>> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
>>> what? Slim or none?
>>
>>10+ successes, a level 5 vulgar rote...I'd make it into a ritual.
>>Of course if the Archmage can coax the vampire into his lair for tea
>>and cookies, and convince the vampire to sit still for the extent of
>>the ritual, then Paradox might not be a problem. Assuming of course
>>that MageRev hasn't defenstrated the Sanctuary background like it
>>did the Mentor and Library backgrounds.
>
>As an exercise in alcohol enhanced reasoning and ignoring the question
>of what kind of paradigm a mage would require to cover death by Jell-O
>transmutation...
>Turning a vampire into Jell-O seems like a Really Stupid Thing To Do.
Indeed. If you ask me, it would be much more sensible to turn vampires
into blood pudding.
But nobody asked me.
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Georgie porgie puddin pie,
kissed the girls and made them cry.
When the boys came out to play
he kissed them too, turns out he's gay!
Mant
>In article <394828...@telusplanet.net>,
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>> aetherson wrote:
>> >
one you
>quoted.
>> >
>> > In addition, I should note that it's already different from
the Mage
>> > Paradigm to think of the Consensus as having to
affirmatively remove
>> > Vampire's powers, over some level of resistance. The "pure
Mage"
>line
>> > would be that unless people affirmatively believe that
Vampires do
>> > exist and do have these powers, they don't exist.
>>
that
>> Andorrans exist, Andorra and the Andorrans don't exist
regardless of
>> what the Andorrans think?
>
>People believe that there are cute little countries with no
power,
>economy, or world significance. That should manage it.
>
>In addition, it's a flawed analogy because Andorra's existance
or lack
>thereof is not an issue of physical law, even under fairly broad
>definitions thereof (but not universally broad definitions).
Reality is rather more than physical laws though.
Mant
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Mant
>Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
>>
>> >> This may be the grey area that, to use Mage canon, the
Technocracy
>> >> forgot to consider, which is why *everyone* lost the
Ascension War.
>> >
>> >Whatever that means. I mean, honestly, before you decide
who lost
>> >the Ascension War, you'd have to set victory conditions. If
your
>> >victory conditions are "Totally annihilate all opposition
permanently"
>> >nobody has ever won a war no matter how much they kicked the
other side's
>> >ass.
>>
>> The Ascension War had nothing to do with who kicked whose ass,
>> but rather, whose paradigm was successfully adopted by
Consensual
>> Reality.
>
>And the Technocracy's paradigm was successfully adopted by
Consensual
>Reality.
But they never really got rid of the rival paradgims, reduced
them in strength but not gone, and not going either.
Araknid
>In article <3948b318...@news.picknowl.com.au>,
> araknidm...@hotmail.com (Araknid) wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:25:51 -0700, Eric Tolle <sch...@silcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >aetherson wrote:
>> >
>> >> odds of the Archmage succeeding in turning the Vamp to Jell-O are,
>> >> what? Slim or none?
>> >
>> >10+ successes, a level 5 vulgar rote...I'd make it into a ritual.
>> >Of course if the Archmage can coax the vampire into his lair for tea
>> >and cookies, and convince the vampire to sit still for the extent of
>> >the ritual, then Paradox might not be a problem. Assuming of course
>> >that MageRev hasn't defenstrated the Sanctuary background like it
>> >did the Mentor and Library backgrounds.
>>
>> As an exercise in alcohol enhanced reasoning and ignoring the question
>> of what kind of paradigm a mage would require to cover death by Jell-O
>> transmutation...
>
>Almost any paradgim /could/ do it if you know the True Name/Source
>Code/Etheric vibrations or whatever your paradgim needs of the Jello.
>The Trad and Techno paradgims are flexable enough that any effect that
>can be though up /can/ be done given some time (nobody could beat
>Blake's challenge on the newsgroup). Its just most aren't likely to do
>such outlandish things.
I agree that any paradigm could be stretched to cover any effect ...
that any mage would actually have enough knowledge of his paradigm to
do so might be a more relevant question.
>> IMHO the rote would be Life 5, Matter 5 (with Correspondence 5 to do
>> it safely at range). A Life 5, Matter 2 rote could turn a mundane into
>> stone - so if you up the Matter rating required to meet the "must use
>> Matter equal to Life in order to affect the undead" rule you have the
>> rote.
>
>Where was that from? I aways though you simply treated them as both, so
>needed the Spheres at apropriate level as the levels are not quite the
>same. Matter 4 covers complex Matter Pattern for Transformation,
>although you could rule a vampire is an "impossible" Matter pattern and
>so need Matter 5.
I was working on the basis that the effect was essentially a variant
of the Life 5 Animal Form spell that can turn a person into a toad or
a tree or what have you. The Matter 2 would be required to create the
resultant simple substance (what the Americans call Jello and I should
be calling jelly). You could have the rote be Prime 5, Matter 2 -
Prime 5 to turn the vampire into free quintessence and Matter 2 to
turn that quintessence into a wobbly snack. An argument could be made
that Life or Matter might only be required at rank 3, on the level of
Rip the Man Body, if it's simply a weird direct pattern damaging
attack.
The Matter equal to Life required to affect a vampire was my
(mis?)remembering the Crossover rules (probably from an old FAQ). A
check of the Book of Mirrors would have the mage require conjunctional
Matter 2 to perform a Life effect on a vampire (thus not changing the
rote from what would be required to transform a mundane). A peek into
the Vampire Revised Storyteller's Handbook has the rule that pure
Matter alone is required to cast a "Life" effect on a vampire - I
guess this rule is the most recent and it is what you suggest.
>> Make it vulgar w/ witness if the vampire Jell-O-fies in public or
>> vulgar w/o witness if done at high noon when the vampire is locked in
>> his haven. So it could be base difficulty 9. Adding in Correspondence
>> 5 would add to the successes required but would allow all sorts of
>> things to be done to reduce target numbers as well as increase the
>> odds of the mage getting away with it.
>
>Why Correspondence 5? Surely two would be enough. If you can scry on
>the target you can zap 'em with magick. Or is this an MRev thing, need
>Correspondence as high as the Sphere you are using?
It's a Revised thing to make magic from a distance less available. You
require Correspondence equal to the rating of the highest other Sphere
involved in the rote.
>> Cast from a node, spend
>> quintessence, take extra time, take advantage of specialised foci ...
>> well spent effort could make the difficulty 6.
>>
>> Successes required would be 1 to effect another pattern,
>
>Is that from MRev? M2 one success is never enough to effect something
>else. And trasformations are 5+ successes.
MRev again ... you add up the successes required to purchase the stuff
involved in your spell. A single success is spent just buying the
ability to start affecting a pattern other than your own. Additional
successes above that are required to accomplish anything. Hence a 5
success damage attack would do 4 successes worth of damage to anyone
but yourself ... all damage is worked out as successes "spent" on
damage x 2. In the above calculation I spent successes to effect the
other pattern and to acheive the Correspondence range before any start
going into the Damage part of the spell.
>> 1 or 2 for
>> the Correspondnce range assuming the mage had a blood sample from the
>> vampire or a prized possession up to 4 if the mage is merely casually
>> familiar with the vampire. A further 4 successes would be required to
>> do enough "damage" to kill the vampire (since turning someone into
>> Jell-O is simply an inane way of killing them).
>
>Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect will
>wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
>transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
>thinking in M2 terms though.
I went for the approach that turning a creature into Jello was merely
a stupid way of killing it. I suppose you could look at this as a
variant of the Life/Matter or Forces effects that a mage can use to
assume a form composed of rock or shadow etc.
IMO such a Jellofied vampire would collapse under it's own weight and
go SPLAT! on the floor thus effecting a decapitation :)
>Question, is a vampire with the Eat Food Merit eats a vampire turned to
>Jello, is that Diablerie?
Another reason to prefer that the vampire is merely transformed into
dead mundane Jello rather than some kind of Unliving Jello Beast!
Worst case scenario - let Vissicitude 5 be your guide.
>> So somewhere between 6
>> - 11 successes would cover this.
>
>Duration?
Damage effects don't require successes spent on Duration unless you
want the damage to occur slowly over time ... although it might be
amusing to have the vampire madly running around town seeking
Thaumaturgical help whilst their extremities slowly transform into a
lurid green sugary treat and dribble off :)
>> I'd allow Fortitude to soak the direct pattern "aggravated damage" of
>> the Jell-O transmutation so a tough vampire could survive partially
>> transformed.
>
>Half vampire, half jelly?
Yep :) You could calculate just how much of a vampire would be
required to be Jello to result in the appropriate wound level's
impairment.
>Really this is just a more edible version of the old Lawn Chair
>argument.
Exactly ... it's the sort of thing non-Mage players can look at and
say "Mages are way over-powered ... they can not only kill vampires
but they can do so in silly and demeaning ways".
Of course you can turn a vampire into Jello with Prime 2, Matter 2 -
you zap the vamp for lots of aggravated damage with Prime 2 alone (a
MRev rules change) resulting in a pile of dust. Matter 2 then
transforms the pile of dust into Jello. You would require Matter 3 if
you wanted your resultant Jello to have the same shape as the original
vampiric ingredient but it sure is easier than a Life5 or Matter 5
effect.
Araknid.
Araknid
wrote:
>Well, I think the advantage of doing it like damage, and thus giving
>them an opportunity to maybe soak, is that you don't need duration, any
>more than you need duration on a fireball. It's essentially a really
>stupid fireball with a special-effect ending and massively overpowered
>Spheres required, right?
That was what I thought too. If you want to kill a vampire as well as
have a sugary treat to munch on you should kill the vampire in a way
more likely to succeed and then use a packet mix.
>Or maybe I play too much GURPS.
How much is too much? ;)
Araknid.
aetherson
Depends on how broad your definition of physical laws is. Humans
believe that humans exist. Humans believe that the area of land that
Andorra is in exists. It's not like the Consensus has to believe
specifically that you, Mant, have said "Hello" to your friend Jane
today. Just that such things are possible.
That's what I mean by it not being a matter of physical laws. The
Consensus creates the framework for things like Andorra to exist, by
affirmative belief. It doesn't instantiate them.
David Johnston
Which is precisely what I mean. As long as you don't think that
victory means "having to totally eliminate all the opposition"
by any reasonable standard the Technocracy won.
Angela Christine
>>Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect will
>>wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
>>transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
>>thinking in M2 terms though.
Hmm, would that be possible, or would it require a seperate effect? It
seems to me that Jello suddenly turning into a vampire (or even a human)
would be rather vulgar. Does the mage get 'dox twice?
>I went for the approach that turning a creature into Jello was merely
>a stupid way of killing it. I suppose you could look at this as a
>variant of the Life/Matter or Forces effects that a mage can use to
>assume a form composed of rock or shadow etc.
>
>IMO such a Jellofied vampire would collapse under it's own weight and
>go SPLAT! on the floor thus effecting a decapitation :)
Nah, the "head" hasn't seperated from the "body," it's just moved down a
bit. Some vampires can turn themselves into mist, dust, ash, animated
pools of blood and probably other unlikely substances that aren't even
remotely man-shaped. Apparently if you don't have a head you can't be
decapitated.
Also, Jello now has a recipie for what they call "Jello Jigglers" that
uses less liquid. You use cookie cutters to make rubbery shapes that do
hold together pretty well.
And at the level of spheres required to affect the transformation at
all, I don't think the mage would have to maintain the victim in same
mass, volume or shape. There is no reason he can't turn 200 lbs of
vampire into a cup and a half of neatly cubed jello.
>Exactly ... it's the sort of thing non-Mage players can look at and
>say "Mages are way over-powered ... they can not only kill vampires
>but they can do so in silly and demeaning ways".
Which is why no one will teach Thaum to Malkavians. ;)
One Malk with Movement of mind and a pants fetish ruined it for
everyone.
>Of course you can turn a vampire into Jello with Prime 2, Matter 2 -
>you zap the vamp for lots of aggravated damage with Prime 2 alone (a
>MRev rules change) resulting in a pile of dust. Matter 2 then
>transforms the pile of dust into Jello. You would require Matter 3 if
>you wanted your resultant Jello to have the same shape as the original
>vampiric ingredient but it sure is easier than a Life5 or Matter 5
>effect.
Indeed. Unless you are an Orphan or Maurader with a Jello based
paradigm the only reason to go with the more complex route is because
you _do_ want to keep him "alive" but inert. Ok, staking would
certainly be easier, but if the Mage in question doesn't have vampire
lore he may not know that; he might think staking is completely
ineffective (as so many things the folklore advises are) or he may
believe it would utterly destroy the vampire.
Perhaps he even wants to vampire concious but harmless. He could use
Mind to communicate with the Jelpire, and stir in a point of blood each
day to keep it healty--rather like a peculiar sour dough recipie. Maybe
he played too much D&D as a kid, and he _wants_ a horrible Undead Jello
Beast for guarding his lair!
In some paradigms it should be easier to turn a vampire into jello than
it would be to turn him into a lawn chair. Vampires are organic and
jello is organic, but lawn chairs are usually inorganic.
Maybe he was just trying to "cure" some poor slob of vampirism and
botched.
"I've got some good news, and some bad news. The good news is that
you are no longer a vampire! However, the bad news...."
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
-The Brain
David Johnston
>
> >>Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect will
> >>wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
> >>transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
> >>thinking in M2 terms though.
>
> seems to me that Jello suddenly turning into a vampire (or even a human)
> would be rather vulgar. Does the mage get 'dox twice?
No. It's already paid for.
Araknid
Christine) wrote:
>Rumor has it that araknidm...@hotmail.com (Araknid) wrote:
>>On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:32:19 GMT, Mant <man...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>>Well they aren't dead, just Jello. Hell given some time the effect will
>>>wear off. It is pretty fatal if anyone attacks, but that is why
>>>transforming other people requires a bunch of successes. Again I
>>>thinking in M2 terms though.
>
>Hmm, would that be possible, or would it require a seperate effect? It
>seems to me that Jello suddenly turning into a vampire (or even a human)
>would be rather vulgar. Does the mage get 'dox twice?
No. That would open the whole retroactive paradox can of worms. I'm
fairly sure that all paradox acrues then and there when a mage casts a
spell - if it were otherwise the already monumental task of running
Mage would be much more difficult. I might give a single paradox point
or trigger a backlash of already accumulated paradox if a mage did
something that was initially coincidental but later resulted in
something blatantly vulgar (shifting into cat form in your sanctum and
then wandering outside in view of the neighbours and shifting back
into human form when the duration runs out springs to mind).
>>I went for the approach that turning a creature into Jello was merely
>>a stupid way of killing it. I suppose you could look at this as a
>>variant of the Life/Matter or Forces effects that a mage can use to
>>assume a form composed of rock or shadow etc.
>>
>>IMO such a Jellofied vampire would collapse under it's own weight and
>>go SPLAT! on the floor thus effecting a decapitation :)
>
>Nah, the "head" hasn't seperated from the "body," it's just moved down a
>bit. Some vampires can turn themselves into mist, dust, ash, animated
>pools of blood and probably other unlikely substances that aren't even
>remotely man-shaped. Apparently if you don't have a head you can't be
>decapitated.
IMO vampire powers that convert a vampire into a form without a head
are an exception. Just because a vampire has Protean 5 and can
potentially turn into mist doesn't mean that he is immune to beheading
when not in that form. Being turned into jelly against your will by a
power that isn't yours doesn't equate with turning into mist etc under
your own steam.
Plus I was being silly.
>Also, Jello now has a recipie for what they call "Jello Jigglers" that
>uses less liquid. You use cookie cutters to make rubbery shapes that do
>hold together pretty well.
Even these types of jello probably wouldn't allow the thin neck
section to survive the nearly 6' drop the vampire's jello head would
take when the creature topples over.
This has definitely gotten silly...
>And at the level of spheres required to affect the transformation at
>all, I don't think the mage would have to maintain the victim in same
>mass, volume or shape. There is no reason he can't turn 200 lbs of
>vampire into a cup and a half of neatly cubed jello.
He could theoretically transform the vampire into a 12 course yum cha
if he wanted to. Although the quality of the resultant meal would
depend on the mage's Crafts (Cooking) skill level as well as avoiding
the use of Nosferatu ingredients :)
>>Exactly ... it's the sort of thing non-Mage players can look at and
>>say "Mages are way over-powered ... they can not only kill vampires
>>but they can do so in silly and demeaning ways".
>
>Which is why no one will teach Thaum to Malkavians. ;)
>
>One Malk with Movement of mind and a pants fetish ruined it for
>everyone.
All powers are open for abuse by people who want to do that sort of
thing. Highly flexible powers like Sphere magic just make it easier.
>Indeed. Unless you are an Orphan or Maurader with a Jello based
>paradigm the only reason to go with the more complex route is because
>you _do_ want to keep him "alive" but inert. Ok, staking would
>certainly be easier, but if the Mage in question doesn't have vampire
>lore he may not know that; he might think staking is completely
>ineffective (as so many things the folklore advises are) or he may
>believe it would utterly destroy the vampire.
>
>Perhaps he even wants to vampire concious but harmless. He could use
>Mind to communicate with the Jelpire, and stir in a point of blood each
>day to keep it healty--rather like a peculiar sour dough recipie. Maybe
>he played too much D&D as a kid, and he _wants_ a horrible Undead Jello
>Beast for guarding his lair!
I have to remember this for use in one of those drink a six pack of
beer each before starting games :)
Araknid.