Technocrats: Misguided or EVIL?
Winter
Paul F. Strack wrote:
>
> The Epiphanist (rmy...@smartec.com) wrote:
> : I'd like to poll some opinions. After Mage's release, I though the
> : Technocracy was a fabulous idea and a really cool villainous plot device.
> : Imagine an organization with a philosophy like Orwell's Big Brother regime,
> : operating as a secret conspiracy like the Smoking Man's illuminati from the
> : X-Files, that is armed with every scary technology from dozens of SF-Horror
> : movies from "The Stepford Wives" to "The Terminator." The text fiction
> : piece at the start of the First Edition Mage book presented a really
> : unnerving villain, twisting skulls, possessing people from a distance,
> : making the most commonplace household appliances seem really threatening.
> :
> : My initial enthusiasm became dampened, however, by the treatment that
> : Technomancers received subsequently. They were just too... wimpy. Almost
> : everybody who wrote game supplements or fiction seemed to migrate to the
> : Nephandi as the "real" villains, while the Technomancers were universally
> : relegated to the role of misguided-but-well-meaning-yutzes subscribving to
> : a flawed philosophy. More often than not Technomancers are depicted as
> : being dimwitted pawns being secretly manipulated by Nephandi. This is the
> : impression I got from both the novels "Such Pain" and "The Road to Hell"
> : and half the stories in the "Truth Until Paradox" collection, and from
> : virtually every Mage sourcebook dealing with the Technocratic Union. Even
> : when they are presented as genuinely *evil*, it is the kind of direct,
> : blunt evil typical of action movie villains instead of horror villains.
> : Such Technomancers are at best challenging threats but never terrifying
> : menaces. I think the Technocracy is losing credibility as an antagonist.
EXACTLY
and you wanna know why??
because they aren't the enemy!!!
they are right!!
hahaha
the technocracy is the way to go
all those silly traditions are the screwed up ones
hehe
> The true horror of the Technocracy comes from the fact that they *are*
> well-meaning. The goals of the Technocracy are very noble: Protect
> Humanity. Use Technology to improve their lives. Develop Science to the
> point where "magick" is accessible to all. Somewhere along the way,
> though, the means overtook the goals. The Technocracy has become
> preoccuppied with power for its own sake, and perpetuating its own
> existence.
i've always wanted to run a dark ages game
where the PCs were well-meaning but quarelous proto-technocrats
trying to bring down the oppresive and corrupt OOH and CC
and change the paradigm and win the asscension war
show a nice side of things i think
i'm still waiting for the Players Guide to the Technocracy
i want to play a group of men in black and progenitors and void engineers
out to purge all "Deviants" from static reality
ah well, perhaps after the wraith chronicle ends
L8R
--
Winter---------...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu
NetWraithInnerCircle Member #242, SpamFerryman
and keeper of the almighty Wraith-L FAQ
"You'll burn in Hell for this!"
"Burn, what a limited imagination"
Dialouge between the preacher and Pinhead- Hellraiser III
The Epiphanist
I'd like to poll some opinions. After Mage's release, I though the
Technocracy was a fabulous idea and a really cool villainous plot device.
Imagine an organization with a philosophy like Orwell's Big Brother regime,
operating as a secret conspiracy like the Smoking Man's illuminati from the
X-Files, that is armed with every scary technology from dozens of SF-Horror
movies from "The Stepford Wives" to "The Terminator." The text fiction
piece at the start of the First Edition Mage book presented a really
unnerving villain, twisting skulls, possessing people from a distance,
making the most commonplace household appliances seem really threatening.
My initial enthusiasm became dampened, however, by the treatment that
Technomancers received subsequently. They were just too... wimpy. Almost
everybody who wrote game supplements or fiction seemed to migrate to the
Nephandi as the "real" villains, while the Technomancers were universally
relegated to the role of misguided-but-well-meaning-yutzes subscribving to
a flawed philosophy. More often than not Technomancers are depicted as
being dimwitted pawns being secretly manipulated by Nephandi. This is the
impression I got from both the novels "Such Pain" and "The Road to Hell"
and half the stories in the "Truth Until Paradox" collection, and from
virtually every Mage sourcebook dealing with the Technocratic Union. Even
when they are presented as genuinely *evil*, it is the kind of direct,
blunt evil typical of action movie villains instead of horror villains.
Such Technomancers are at best challenging threats but never terrifying
menaces. I think the Technocracy is losing credibility as an antagonist.
I think the Technocracy works better if it is horrific. The Technocratic
ideal may have internal justification, but by any ordinary value scheme
such justification is woefully inadequate for the methods the Technocracy
employs. No, Technomancers should not be sadistic--but intelligent
ruthlessness can be much more frightening than impulsive cruelty. These
guys won't torture you for jollies, but would do so simply to document the
psychological effects of intense physical distress.
It seems to me that most people disagree with my interpretation of the
Technocracy. I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions on this.
The Epiphanist
"Join me or die! Can you do any less?"
--Mr. Sparkle, "The Simpsons"
Rhaven
pfst...@math.unc.edu (Paul F. Strack) wrote:
>The Epiphanist (rmy...@smartec.com) wrote:
>: I'd like to poll some opinions. After Mage's release, I though the
>: Technocracy was a fabulous idea and a really cool villainous plot device.
>: Imagine an organization with a philosophy like Orwell's Big Brother regime,
>: operating as a secret conspiracy like the Smoking Man's illuminati from the
>: X-Files, that is armed with every scary technology from dozens of SF-Horror
>: movies from "The Stepford Wives" to "The Terminator." The text fiction
>: piece at the start of the First Edition Mage book presented a really
>: unnerving villain, twisting skulls, possessing people from a distance,
>: making the most commonplace household appliances seem really threatening.
>:
>: My initial enthusiasm became dampened, however, by the treatment that
>: Technomancers received subsequently. They were just too... wimpy. Almost
>: everybody who wrote game supplements or fiction seemed to migrate to the
>: Nephandi as the "real" villains, while the Technomancers were universally
>: relegated to the role of misguided-but-well-meaning-yutzes subscribving to
>: a flawed philosophy. More often than not Technomancers are depicted as
>: being dimwitted pawns being secretly manipulated by Nephandi. This is the
>: impression I got from both the novels "Such Pain" and "The Road to Hell"
>: and half the stories in the "Truth Until Paradox" collection, and from
>: virtually every Mage sourcebook dealing with the Technocratic Union. Even
>: when they are presented as genuinely *evil*, it is the kind of direct,
>: blunt evil typical of action movie villains instead of horror villains.
>: Such Technomancers are at best challenging threats but never terrifying
>: menaces. I think the Technocracy is losing credibility as an antagonist.
>I am of the opinion that the best villains (the Technocracy included) are
>those that are well motivated. As such, I dislike the idea of the
>Technocracy as the "malevolent Big Brother".
>The true horror of the Technocracy comes from the fact that they *are*
>well-meaning. The goals of the Technocracy are very noble: Protect
>Humanity. Use Technology to improve their lives. Develop Science to the
>point where "magick" is accessible to all. Somewhere along the way,
>though, the means overtook the goals. The Technocracy has become
>preoccuppied with power for its own sake, and perpetuating its own
>existence.
>I think that it is much more awful if (for example) the Technocracy
>chooses to wipe out a small American town with small pox, not because the
>Technocracy is evil, but because it *genuinely believes* that these
>actions are best for humanity as a whole. Even worse, Tradition mages
>must always face the possibility that the Technocracy is right. The
>Traditions' war with the Technocracy is a major reason for the extreme
>views the Technocracy now holds. It might be that without the Traditions'
>interference, the Technocracy would have long since raised humanity to a
>state of Utopia.
>I'm not sure how far this differs from your opinions, but those are my
>views of the Technocracy.
I'd have to agree. The best way to set the Technocracy up as villains
for your players is to demonstrate how FACELESS they can be
initially...the technocracy, after all, with it's resources, can be
nothing more than a vast machine of destruction in practice... then,
at some horrific point, show the other side of the story... there is
no truer element to horror than to suddenly see the side of the enemy
you have come to hate as the object of all your world's sorrows. It
builds a lot of character.
----Rhaven----
The Epiphanist
I received a response to my original post by email that didn't get posted
on the usenet. It had some good comments, which I reproduce below:
>quote<
My interpretation of the Technocracy has always been that they're the only
faction whose origins are firmly rooted in benevolence, and whose goals
are entirely pure and honest. And that, much as most human organizations
which come from such noble beginnings, it's lost sight of those goals and
has gotten mired in its day-to-day activities, kneejerk reactions, and
by-the-book-literalism. I've never seen them as _evil_, and certainly not
sadistic. I mean, these are the mages who said "Let the Sleepers do what
we can do; alter the paradigm so that there's nothing special about being
a mage, so that people with weak or nonexistent Avatars can do everything
that everyone else can, so that pain and war and death and all the ills
that plague mankind are eliminated." They invented _medicine_, for god's
sake.
They'd be heroes, if they hadn't gotten sidetracked into this stupid
factional dispute between the Traditions and the Nephandi. Now they're
busy trying to fight a war which they would've won a century ago if they'd
simply hidden themselves away and stuck to their original goals.
I think that's why the published background material has been shying away
from making the Technocracy the "bad guys"; the accusation's just too
ludicrous to stick. You can't call the folks who gave electricity,
modern medicine, telephones, and schools to humanity _evil_ (well, you
could, but you'd be a complete weirdo if you did, because any one of those
things is a million times better than everything the Traditions ever did
for the masses put together and multiplied by fifty). You can portray
them as being intelligently ruthless, yes, and some Technomancers can be
portrayed as caring very little about the Sleepers. But some of them
still care. Some of them still remember what the Technocracy was all
about, and why they're part of it.
Their methods, by and large, aren't even particularly evil, except in some
rare cases and in early examples (back when the WW stance was "if it's
technology, it's evil and dehumanizing"). Much of the nastiest stuff the
Technocracy has done has been targeted at the other three factions (Trads,
Nephandi, and Marauders), and generally it's retaliation rather than
aggression. (Of course, I'm in the camp that hated the Progenitor book;
none of the things they were listed as doing had _anything_ to do with
what their goals were, any basis in modern science, or even any usefulness
in a game setting...so I'm probably not much of an authority, because I
instinctively delete about half of the stuff that WW has published about
the Technocracy. I find it hard to buy into the "evil" things that the
Technocracy has done because there's no reason for the Technocracy to _do_
those things, and no explanation for why they did them anyway. It's just
easier to say they don't do it and that the stories saying they do are
bogus, or legends based off an isolated incident.)
The Nephandi, on the other hand, are thoroughly corrupt, to the point of
being cartoons. That makes them uninteresting to me as villains; you
_know_ they're bad guys, and totally unredeemable besides, so you just
kill 'em and feel like you've won. Boooo-ring. Fighting the Technocracy,
though, puts Tradition characters in an interesting position: is the
program they're trying to thwart truly evil, or do they just not
understand it? Are they just afraid of what they can't comprehend? Are
they just fighting the idea because they didn't think of it first? Did
they even stop for a second to consider whether that program would benefit
the Sleepers? Have they bought into the Tradition propaganda that says
that the Technocracy wants to remove all free will and creative thought
from human existence, or have they considered that most technological
innovations have actually increased the opportunities for people to
express their creativity, and limited the ability of others to hamper
their free will? That's much more interesting to me. Setting up
situations where the internal politics of the Technocracy (the
powermongers versus the idealists) are a matter of concern to the
Traditions (who suddenly have to make moral decisions which run deeper
than "There's the Technomancer! Get him!"), where the Technocracy isn't
the dull monolithic steamroller that Trad propaganda says it is...that's
good stuff for a game. Suddenly there's room for intrigue and convoluted
plots and cunning plans and all that stuff, instead of boring bug-hunt
scenarios.
--
of course, that's just me, and i'm something of a freak
>unquote<
Good comments re: the Technocracy, and I think dead-on accurate concerning
the way the Technocracy is handled in recent materials. But I still prefer
to interpret the Technocracy the way they were presented in the early first
edition materials. Under this interpretation (which is no more or less
valid than any other, since the Technocracy is entirely fictional) I would
have to disagree.
For instance, this bit about the Technocrats being the benevolent
proponents of a better way of living, while true from their point of view,
would be viewed very differently by nearly any of their intended
"beneficiaries" if they were given the other side of the story. For every
"advance" the Technocracy has permitted, it has squashed ten others. Yeah,
they encouraged the development of electricity, modern medicine, and
telephones (but I would say schools, and even the Socratic method, predate
the Technocracy by a wide margin and cannot be credited to any mage
faction). But they have supressed alchemy, scrying, faith healing, most
forms of accupuncture/pressure and "holistic" healing, etc., all of which
performed similar functions and were available centuries or even millenia
before their "technological" counterparts were made available.
Perhaps the most telling example that shows the lie in the "benevolent"
propaganda of the Technocracy and demonstrates its hypocrisy is their
destruction of the ether. The SoEs followed the Technocracy's claimed
"ideals": they were developing an internally consistent paradigm
constructed on purely logical principals. But, as I see it, they went too
far too fast. The utopian "Gernsback Continuum" the Sons offered--a
society with no disease, no poverty, food pills, and a flying car in every
garage--didn't offer as much hands-on control to the Technocracy. So the
Technocracy "disproved" the ether and punted the Electrodyne Engineers.
How many purely technological advances have the Technocrats suppressed?
I'd make an argument that most forms of energy advances that would take us
away from internal-combustion engines and hydroelectric generators have
been squashed by the Technocracy. In my interpretation, high efficiency
solar panels and desktop "cold fusion" have been invented several times and
each time the inventor was discredited or turned up dead within a few days
of submitting papers to the local patent office or scientific journals.
The tensions created by a demand in dwindling oil reserves are just too
useful to the Union.
No, I like the view of the Technocracy HOLDING HUMANITY BACK. They keep
the Masses at least two steps behind--self-sufficient sheep, after all,
have no need for a shepherd.
--
chris nasipak
Long ago in the mists of time, Lord Dispater= mumbled:
: This is where I would agree with you the most. This is almost
: exactly what I think the Technocracy is. To the extent that they may be
: Big Brother, they are doing it for our own good, to keep us safe from
: ourselves. After all, we could hurt ourselves, and the Technocracy is
: here to protect us from that. That is why mages are a threat: They offer
: a different path that is frought with dangers. They are subversive and
: offer a counter-culture that is utterly incompatible with the way that a
: rational man or woman knows that things should be.
So, I suppose this reveals the political outlook of the 'Mage' teams...
Traditions == Conservatives - let people be what they want to make themselves
Technocracy == Liberals - create the world and -make- everyone equal and
happy to be that way
Marauders == Libertarians - Hey! Get up off your asses and kick some Liberal
Butt!
Nephandi == Politicians - Need I say more?
--
===============================================================================
| cro...@servtech.com | "I *HEARD* That!!!" |
| Known to Reality as | -- Warrick Morgannen, |
| Chris Nasipak |_________________ Archmage of Pittsburgh. |
| http://www.servtech.com/public/croaker/index.html | |
===============================================================================
GAT/CS: d? s+:++ a? C++ U*+ P+ L+.5 E W++ N++ K- w--- O+ M-- V-
PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X++ R+ tv+ b+++ DI- D+ G e+.5 h! r- z?
===============================================================================
Copyright 1995, Chris Nasipak.
Unsolicited commercial email to this address will be billed at a rate
of $50.00 US per message received for use of my storage space,
download time and bandwidth, and reading time. Transmission of
unsolicited commercial email constitutes acceptance of these terms.
===============================================================================
Z
chris nasipak <cro...@cyber3.servtech.com> spake unto us:
>Long ago in the mists of time, Lord Dispater= mumbled:
>: This is where I would agree with you the most. This is almost
>: exactly what I think the Technocracy is. To the extent that they may be
>: Big Brother, they are doing it for our own good, to keep us safe from
>: ourselves. After all, we could hurt ourselves, and the Technocracy is
>: here to protect us from that. That is why mages are a threat: They offer
>: a different path that is frought with dangers. They are subversive and
>: offer a counter-culture that is utterly incompatible with the way that a
>: rational man or woman knows that things should be.
>So, I suppose this reveals the political outlook of the 'Mage' teams...
I don't think they translate easily.
>Traditions == Conservatives - let people be what they want to make themselves
>Technocracy == Liberals - create the world and -make- everyone equal and
> happy to be that way
Hello?! Do you know the meanings of the terms liberal and
conservative?
Liberal: 1) Not limited to authoritarian attitudes or dogmas.
2) Open to new ideas. Screams Traditions to me (of course the
traditions had more orthodox members, such as Hermitics and Choristers
and Etherites)
Conservative: 1) Tending to oppose change 2) Restrained in
style. The first is the essence of the Technocracy (not the method,
but the essence)
Of course there are individuals in both groups that would be
conservative and liberal, but as far as the general movement goes, you
have it backwards, since you are using words that apply to typical
members of America's major political parties; not the correct use of
the words.
Now replace liberal with Democrat and conservative with republican
and you have an argument (although still flawed, I think, but this
isn't the place for political discussions)
>Marauders == Libertarians - Hey! Get up off your asses and kick some Liberal
> Butt!
They are revolutionaries, they want magick back and they want it now.
They would be the last to fit into a political system. (as a group)
>Nephandi == Politicians - Need I say more?
Nephandi may = corrupt polititions, but, for purposes other than
humor, it is a huge stretch to say all polititians are corrupt (unless
you show me that all politicians in all countries throughout all time
are corrupt)
The screaming nagging voice of reason keeping you sane? Try new
improved Fireball, guarenteed to bring on Quiet faster than any other
leading brand,
Z
________________________________
"If this is some Ninja
trick, I will feast on
your steaming entrails!"
"Oooo. Nice image.
You must save on your grocery
bills."
-Paul the Samuri and one of a million zillion ninjas
Tick, "A Big Fight"
-----------------------------------
Note: Any use of my email for advertisement or anything
commercial is strictly forbidden and considered extremely
obscene by myself, in which case makes it illegal
under the Communications Indecency Act and liable for
up to $50,000 in fines.
j_h...@hotmail.com
In article <336e5...@130.166.1.64>,
> >So, I suppose this reveals the political outlook of the 'Mage' teams...
>
> I don't think they translate easily.
>
> >Traditions == Conservatives - let people be what they want to make themselves
>
> >Technocracy == Liberals - create the world and -make- everyone equal and
> > happy to be that way
>
)
> Conservative: 1) Tending to oppose change 2) Restrained in
> style. The first is the essence of the Technocracy (not the method,
> but the essence)
Oh I'd have said it was the essence of the Traditions. After all, who is
it that wants to turn the world back to the 'good old days' when people
believed that evil spirits gave them the plague (Dreamspeakers, Verbena),
men and women had fixed roles in society (OoH, SoE, Verbena) etc etc ?
;-) Then again, who is it that is actively changing and shaping society
and driving it forwards, technologically as well as socially...?
Traditional even /means/ Conservative!
jo
*ducking*
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
nicholas louis rogal
On Tue, 6 May 1997 j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
Hehe i love the truth, the traditions are keeping me down
Ian Turner
j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Oh I'd have said it was the essence of the Traditions. After all, who
> is it that wants to turn the world back to the 'good old days' when
> people believed that evil spirits gave them the plague (Dreamspeakers,
> Verbena), men and women had fixed roles in society (OoH, SoE, Verbena)
> etc etc ? ;-) Then again, who is it that is actively changing and
> shaping society and driving it forwards, technologically as well as
> socially...?
> Traditional even /means/ Conservative!
>
> jo
> *ducking*
:) And who sits back in the Umbra smoking a pipe and reminiscing about
the good old days when you had to walk 7 leagues to school uphill both
ways in the snow and dragons walked the earth as they slip into the
senility that is Quiet? Sure aint the Technocracy...
Your unisex jumpsuit is ready unit 47, please report to the foodvats for
processing.
Agent 12
Scott Ricketts
Winter wrote in article <336BDF...@odin.cmp.ilstu.edu>...
>Paul F. Strack wrote:
<snip>
>> : Such Technomancers are at best challenging threats but never
terrifying
>> : menaces. I think the Technocracy is losing credibility as an
antagonist.
>
>EXACTLY
>and you wanna know why??
>because they aren't the enemy!!!
>they are right!!
>
>hahaha
>
>the technocracy is the way to go
>
>all those silly traditions are the screwed up ones
Damn skippy! Is it just me or do most Traditions (and the OOH are the worst
at this) sound like sore losers? Let's face it, we tried the "magic out in
the open, stir the cauldron, poof-poof" version of reailty and IT DIDN'T
WORK! People are much better off under the Technocracy than they ever were
in the middle ages, which if the OOH had their way, we'd still be. No
thanks guys, I like my phones and computers just fine.
>i've always wanted to run a dark ages game
>where the PCs were well-meaning but quarelous proto-technocrats
>trying to bring down the oppresive and corrupt OOH and CC
>and change the paradigm and win the asscension war
Now, there's a good idea for a Mage historical game!
------------------------------------
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
-Cardinal Biggles
Scott Ricketts
gre...@itookmyprozac.com
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6242
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
mQCNAzNbmL0AAAEEAOgnZRfQA0W9az2CPe41G92FOICtMtovoOC+XS2nj+4eMldY
trq5lP6XzVMrhukwn6AT/NkSmUtwmZyi51Nc7XL8rPqB18Oz1ySR7G+eIU7lgBCi
gT9FMNGUosoqSG6/6iM2nhoN3tdufuXFIn1eI0ahRI6DHCaOHv7Ord9mcj3BAAUR
tCpTY290dCBXLiBSaWNrZXR0cyA8Z3JlbmRlbEBpbmV0LmF0dC5jby5rcik=
=/nuA
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
j_h...@hotmail.com
In article <336F5C...@wpine.com>,
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>
> :) And who sits back in the Umbra smoking a pipe and reminiscing about
> the good old days when you had to walk 7 leagues to school uphill both
> ways in the snow and dragons walked the earth as they slip into the
> senility that is Quiet? Sure aint the Technocracy...
So you've met my father then...?
>
> Your unisex jumpsuit is ready unit 47, please report to the foodvats for
> processing.
>
> Agent 12
But I only have one more set of simulations to run! I know it will work
this time, I found the bug in the last version. Just another day of
labtime?
j0
ItX Acolyte: damn damn damn
Ian Turner
j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <336F5C...@wpine.com>,
> Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
> > :) And who sits back in the Umbra smoking a pipe and reminiscing
> > about the good old days when you had to walk 7 leagues to school
> > uphill both ways in the snow and dragons walked the earth as they
> > slip into the senility that is Quiet? Sure aint the Technocracy...
>
> So you've met my father then...?
I've got three dads myself, sometimes I wish I was a Progenitor
test-tube growth, I'd save a lot of money on cards... And the
grandparents and in-laws and step-this and ex-that and cousins, ARG!
Ian T
Z
"Ian Lowe (at work!)" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
>>J_hart's comments seem to be representative of a common perception--that
>>the Technocracy is the source of all progress and that without it we'd
>all
>>be serfs living in wattle-floored huts, dying of plague before our
>>twenty-fifth birthdays, and bowing and scraping to feudal lords.
>Perhaps not quite this bad, but the level wouldn't be much greater. the
>Traditions are all about personal ascension, and personal power. the two
>ways to be most powerful are a) to develop more and b) to maintain secrecy
>Tradition Mages take on very few apprentices, and keep their knowledge to
>themselves as much as possible. Apart from obvious exceptions like the VA
>and SoE, but then they aren't really traditions are they? they are
>misplaced technocrats.
Wow its a good thing that the stereotype for Mythic Age Order of
Hermes is dead and gone (roll of eyes). Maintaining secrecy, to a
point, is a nessecity, because if they go public the Technocracy will
come down on them. Outside the Order of Hermes (and even inside the
Order) the Traditions have realized the folly of trying to horde the
power, mainly because of the rise or Reason. For the most part, they
are not out to rule over humanity like gods, they are trying to bring
magick back into the world. Magick is almost gone. Sleepers can only
use things when they stop being magick, and become normal gadgets.
The "misplaced technocrats" are in the Traditions because they
realize the horrors/misguided views of the Technocracy. By enforcing
order you limit possibilities. The Sons of Ether didn't get lost,
they saw the Technocracy change from a savior of humanity to being a
force that will decide the fate of science and progress because they
think they know best. The Virtual Adepts didn't get kicked out
because they are "throwbacks to the mythic age," they chose to leave
because the Technocracy was seeking to limit the access of the
information technology they pioneered.
>>My own take on the materials is that this is the propaganda the
>Technocracy
>>wants us to believe, but is far from the truth.
>of course it is ;)
>>The Technocracy has
>>progressed further along to its view of Ascension than any other faction,
>>but only by cropping out everything it couldn't control. In the WoD,
>other
>>possibilities exist(ed). Had, say, the OoH gotten the lead, today we
>might
>>all be immunized from disease by spells instead of vaccines and
>>communicating by crystal balls and scrying pools instead of PCs and Macs.
>>But my own take is that we would have had a pretty comparable standard of
>>living.
>I see the Altruism of the technocracy, in wanting to raise everyone a
>little at a time, rather than massively increasing individuals, as being
>ultimately more rewarding to all of society, rather than the very selfish
>Tradition viewpoints.
Yes, because the modern Celestial Chorus never seeks to improve the
neighborhoods that Sleepers live in and the Cult of Ecstacy never
fights for freedom of expression, Sons of Ether are selfish because
they never try to open up the possibilities of Science for the Masses,
the Akashic Brotherhood is selfish because they never spread the word
of the introspective methods of the Far East, the Virtual Adepts are
selfish because they never try to make all information free (which
means free to the Masses as well), the Dreamspeakers never try to
bring an awareness of our connection to the natural world (including
greenhouse and other more abstract ideas), the Verbena never try to
enhance our connection with nature or open up healing options outside
modern medicine (ones that work too), the Order of Hermes never tries
to organize this effort or ritualize all this Magick for easier use by
others (including Sleepers or easier Awakening for Sleepers), and the
Euthanatos never try to remove the "bad" parts of our world to help
this all along, and they never support rehabilitation for people that
will take it.
You can't honestly expect to judge the Traditions for the mistakes
they have made 800 years ago, I mean the mistakes that the Order of
Hermes and Celestial Chorus made.
Ryan Franklin
[ WARNING: a long rant follows. Hopefully a fun and thought-provoking
one, though. ]
In article <3378c...@130.166.1.64>, Z <ejz...@csun.edu> wrote:
>"Ian Lowe (at work!)" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
>
>>Perhaps not quite this bad, but the level wouldn't be much greater. the
>>Traditions are all about personal ascension, and personal power. the two
>
>come down on them. Outside the Order of Hermes (and even inside the
>Order) the Traditions have realized the folly of trying to horde the
>power, mainly because of the rise or Reason. For the most part, they
>are not out to rule over humanity like gods, they are trying to bring
>magick back into the world. Magick is almost gone. Sleepers can only
>use things when they stop being magick, and become normal gadgets.
I have a few quibbles with this:
First of all, given the way that the Traditions "recruit" new mages, it
doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their power or
not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the average Sleeper
is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest piece of that power,
for the simple reason that the average Sleeper is not going to Awaken, is
not going to have a sufficiently large Avatar to work real magick even if
Awakened, and is not going to meet a member of the Traditions who will be
both willing and able to guide them in the intricacies of a specific
paradigm. Who _cares_ if the Traditions don't have the rule "Thou shalt
not share thy powers with the Sleepers" chiseled in the cornerstone of
every Chantry? It's so ingrained in their methodology that it's beyond
being just a matter of policy--it's an integral part of being a
Traditional mage.
Secondly, it sounds a bit weird to claim that the Traditions are "only
trying to bring magick back into the world" as if this is somehow
desirable, excusable, or even vaguely altruistic. They're the only ones
who can _use_ magick; bringing it back into the world is strictly within
the bounds of their self-interest, and hardly worth applauding.
> The "misplaced technocrats" are in the Traditions because they
>realize the horrors/misguided views of the Technocracy. By enforcing
>order you limit possibilities.
Misguided views I'll grant, but _every_ side of the Ascension War is
loaded down with misguided views. I fail to see why the misguided views
held by the Traditions (and there are many) are forgivable, while the
Technocracy is held to a higher standard. I mean, get a load of this
line:
> You can't honestly expect to judge the Traditions for the mistakes
>they have made 800 years ago, I mean the mistakes that the Order of
>Hermes and Celestial Chorus made.
The other side of this coin says that you can't honestly expect to judge
the Technocracy for the mistakes _they've_ made over the years, either.
And I suspect that most of these mistakes can be traced to one very big
mistake--letting the Traditions win a seemingly minor point by buying into
the idea of an "Ascension War." It shouldn't be a "War" at all,
particularly not to the Technocracy. What the hell should it matter to
_them_ whether Vicki Verbena wants to show off nifty New-Agey crystal
healing tricks to the granolaheads who come into her store? If they kept
their noses to the grindstone, modern medicine would have gotten past
these quintessence shortages and paradox flaws that have been tripping it
up in recent decades and would be so obviously superior to the
"Traditional" techniques that the Sleepers would be flocking to the local
clinics and snickering behind their hand at poor deluded Vicki who hasn't
figured out that gene therapy is where it's at.
But no, the Technocracy heard about this "War" thing, declared a Pogrom
(and I'm surprised that the logic boys over in Iteration-X didn't kick
over that word, as it clearly suggests that this was an emotional decision
and not a rational one), and started devoting their precious time and
effort to _removing_ Tradition mages, as if _that_ would "win the War."
They should've been looking back at their records and thinking "Gee, we
were winning when we were just showing the Sleepers an easy-to-understand,
effective, and flexible way of doing things that they could master with
just a little practice and absolutely _no_ innate magickal ability
whatsoever; maybe we should stick to that." Killing one Tradition mage
(or even a dozen) isn't nearly as effective as making them all look like
idiots, which is precisely what would happen if the cause of science were
still the primary focus of the Technocracy. You don't have to get rid of
the Traditions--just prove that they're _wrong_, and considering that this
judgement will come from the vast masses of Sleepers who can easily grasp
and use Technocratic magick but will have absolutely no facility with the
Traditional versions, proving that the Traditions are wrong is a complete
no-brainer.
I don't know. Maybe I'm alone here, but I can say that if the Ascension
War were real and I could pick who won, I'd go with the Technocracy in a
New York minute. I would much prefer a world founded on the ideas that
_all_ humans can be powerful, happy, and effective, that all things can be
ultimately within the grasp of human knowledge, and that all problems are
essentially solvable, to the Traditional alternative, which is a world
founded on the idea that ordinary humans are less powerful than a host of
supernatural critters, that ancient and inhuman intelligences exist and
can reshape the universe at a whim, and that such things as hopeless
struggles are unavoidable. I suspect that most normal people would agree
with me.
Oh, does that mean that mages, spirits, vampires, werewolves, the Fae, and
all those other supernatural things would cease to exist? That the
World of Darkness would lose all the shadowy figures in the wings?
That's fantastic! If I were living in the WoD, I would much prefer to see
supernaturals as stories, or as characters in role-playing games, or as
fantasy artwork, or whatever; not as real, concrete entities. Hell, if I
found evidence that vampires, mages, or whatnot existed in the _real
world_, I'd be very upset. They're much, much, MUCH better as fiction
than they could ever be as fact, and the Technocratic paradigm will assign
whatever benevolent functions they might have (a tiny bucketful of good
things in a vast ocean of evil) to ordinary humans. Creativity? Gotcha
covered, babe; check out the latest neuroscience and psychology journals.
Caring for the environment? I dare you to name a biologist who _doesn't_
think that the environment is a pretty nifty thing to have. Humans don't
need supernaturals to make our lives wonderful and exciting, because as
humans we're all perfectly capable of being wonderful and exciting all on
our lonesome, thank-you-very-much.
And to lurch suddenly onto a different topic, I also don't see what's so
inherently awful about "limiting possibilities." Anyone who can't see the
incredible and awe-inspiring vista that modern science opens up (and
instead bitches about how it's "nitpicking, rigid, and boring, and it
destorys all the wonder in the world") has absolutely no appreciation for
wonder or beauty in the first place, and is simply faking it (probably
assuming that things of wonder and beauty are somehow spoiled rather than
enhanced by closer examination). Folks, even Iteration-X wouldn't want
(or, actually, considering the stupid "War" they've let themselves get
caught in, I should say that they _shouldn't_ want) human creativity and
individual willpower to be crushed out of existence.
The cogs-in-the-great-machine metaphor is really scary and sounds awful,
but in the end it's only a metaphor; there are far too many benefits
associated with free will for it to _ever_ be removed from the paradigm.
If all the Technocracy wanted was soulless zombies, they could've done
that five hundred years ago (and the Nephandi would've bent over backwards
to help them). They don't _want_ zombies; they want humans in a universal
paradigm which allows them to truly live up to their potential, and
whether you think they're going about accomplishing that in the right way
or not, the fact remains that it's their primary goal and their methods of
achieving it are better (and infinitely more appealing) than anything the
Traditions have managed to cough up.
In another article in this thread, McMackinTi <mcmac...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I have two problems with the Technocracy's methods. First of all, they
>don't offer any other option; you have to do things their way or die.
>Yeah, democracy is rough in today's world, but Ascension is something that
>(I think) you can't force on anyone like they are trying to.
True enough, and this is an extremely valid criticism. The current
methods (the Pogrom and its associated bullshit) aren't effective because
they're attempting to force a particular decision on the masses. Not in a
"do this our way or die" way, mind you, but in a "we're going to kill any
mage who tries to demonstrate a different way." The worst Technocracy
excesses are always dropped on the heads of supernaturals, never on the
Sleepers. Rather than trying to force the decision they want by ending
the debate, they just have to stick to their original argument, which is
so much more appealing to the Masses that they'll come to the desired
decision on their own.
>Second, are we sure that they're totally benevolent? The movement started
>as a road to Ascension, but I have a problem with their methods. Is
>killing people and suppressing every other viewpoint justified by a
>universal Ascension? It's like the "Just War" question: can you kill
>people, maybe lots of people, for a "good" goal? Not today. Modern
I'm not sure I buy this, though. Arguments which boil down to
"Utilitarianism: threat or menace?" aren't particularly appealing to begin
with, and I'm not even convinced that the Technocracy _is_ killing people
and suppressing every other viewpoint. You can argue that they're
suppressing other mages, to be sure; this isn't the same as suppressing
other viewpoints. You can argue that they haven't paid enough attention
to what the Masses want; this isn't the same as forcing the Masses to
follow their commands (especially since the Technocracy lacks the
manpower, influence, and raw power it would take to accomplish such a
task).
I also suspect that Traditional methods would lead to far, far more deaths
and suffering for Sleepers than the Technocracy's methods, for the simple
fact that under the Technocracy's system, the Sleepers are able to help
_themselves_ rather than wait for a mage to come and bail their pathetic
ass out. After all, the Technocracy's road to "Ascension" is going to
have to fit the desires and will of the Masses; the Traditional paths
(everyone makes their individual journey to full enlightenment) just have
to cater to the desires of individuals, and I'm afraid the "Love your
neighbor as you love yourself" philosophy isn't as ingrained in the
Traditional paradigms as it would have to be to keep abuses to a minimum.
The key thing to remember is that in the Mage setting, the Masses are
_always_ right, and if they want something, there isn't a damn thing that
all the mages in the universe can do about keeping that thing from them.
The Technocracy "won" early because they showed the Masses something
_worth_ wanting; they can "win" now just by sticking to that. But if they
act like the Traditions, fighting this gloriously idiotic "Ascension War"
as though winning it would prove anything at all, well, they deserve what
they get.
--
which will be a big paradox-loaded kick in the ass
ry...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu
Ian Lowe (at work!)
You know, that was one of the most thought provoking posts I have come
across in a long time. well said that man!
(pity is, it looks like some of the replies to my bit haven't reached my
news server, so I am reading out of sync!)
Ian.
Kyle Anderson Felker
Ryan Franklin (ry...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:
: >come down on them. Outside the Order of Hermes (and even inside the
: >Order) the Traditions have realized the folly of trying to horde the
: >power, mainly because of the rise or Reason. For the most part, they
: >are not out to rule over humanity like gods, they are trying to bring
: >magick back into the world. Magick is almost gone. Sleepers can only
: >use things when they stop being magick, and become normal gadgets.
: I have a few quibbles with this:
: First of all, given the way that the Traditions "recruit" new mages, it
: doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their power or
: not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the average Sleeper
: is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest piece of that power,
: for the simple reason that the average Sleeper is not going to Awaken, is
: not going to have a sufficiently large Avatar to work real magick even if
: Awakened, and is not going to meet a member of the Traditions who will be
: both willing and able to guide them in the intricacies of a specific
: paradigm. Who _cares_ if the Traditions don't have the rule "Thou shalt
: not share thy powers with the Sleepers" chiseled in the cornerstone of
: every Chantry? It's so ingrained in their methodology that it's beyond
: being just a matter of policy--it's an integral part of being a
: Traditional mage.
Very true. Of couse, the Technocracy does the same thing.
: Secondly, it sounds a bit weird to claim that the Traditions are "only
--
---------------------------------------
Kyle Felker (kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu)
"Boil, boil, toil and trouble
Fire burn and cauldron bubble!"
- Shakespeare, _Macbeth_
---------------------------------------
Roland X
In article <5lbtms$dv0$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, ry...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu
(Ryan Franklin) wrote:
> [ WARNING: a long rant follows. Hopefully a fun and thought-provoking
> one, though. ]
It was. 8^)
> In article <3378c...@130.166.1.64>, Z <ejz...@csun.edu> wrote:
> >"Ian Lowe (at work!)" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
> >
> >>Perhaps not quite this bad, but the level wouldn't be much greater. the
> >>Traditions are all about personal ascension, and personal power. the two
> >
> >come down on them. Outside the Order of Hermes (and even inside the
> >Order) the Traditions have realized the folly of trying to horde the
> >power, mainly because of the rise or Reason. For the most part, they
> >are not out to rule over humanity like gods, they are trying to bring
> >magick back into the world. Magick is almost gone. Sleepers can only
> >use things when they stop being magick, and become normal gadgets.
Oh really? This is precisely why the Trads have so much
trouble working together-because many of them _have_
tried to take over the world, and some still are. The Her-
metics (especially back at Doisettep) still don't get it.
Neither do a lot of the members of the other old Trads.
The whole point of Mage is that the 'balance' within
the Traditions is the last best hope of humanity, but
the Trad mages deny it with annoying regularity. Read
any Tradbook and you'll find that the Tradition in question
is the 'only true hope' for the Council and the human race.
And they turn around and accuse the Techies of being
blind...
> I have a few quibbles with this:
>
> First of all, given the way that the Traditions "recruit" new mages, it
> doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their power or
> not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the average Sleeper
> is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest piece of that power,
> for the simple reason that the average Sleeper is not going to Awaken, is
> not going to have a sufficiently large Avatar to work real magick even if
> Awakened, and is not going to meet a member of the Traditions who will be
> both willing and able to guide them in the intricacies of a specific
> paradigm. Who _cares_ if the Traditions don't have the rule "Thou shalt
> not share thy powers with the Sleepers" chiseled in the cornerstone of
> every Chantry? It's so ingrained in their methodology that it's beyond
> being just a matter of policy--it's an integral part of being a
> Traditional mage.
This, OTOH, is untrue. Paradigm-reality is now fully realized
by all the Traditions. They _are_ trying to convince the Sleepers
that magic (not, of course, Magick) can be used by anyone, and
Hedge Magic is in fact still possible. But it isn't easy, and they're
playing an 800 year-old game of catch-up. And the Technocracy
isn't fighting fair, because they're certain that _they_ are right.
> > The "misplaced technocrats" are in the Traditions because they
> >realize the horrors/misguided views of the Technocracy. By enforcing
> >order you limit possibilities.
>
> Misguided views I'll grant, but _every_ side of the Ascension War is
> loaded down with misguided views. I fail to see why the misguided views
> held by the Traditions (and there are many) are forgivable, while the
> Technocracy is held to a higher standard. I mean, get a load of this
> line:
>
> > You can't honestly expect to judge the Traditions for the mistakes
> >they have made 800 years ago, I mean the mistakes that the Order of
> >Hermes and Celestial Chorus made.
>
> The other side of this coin says that you can't honestly expect to judge
> the Technocracy for the mistakes _they've_ made over the years, either.
> And I suspect that most of these mistakes can be traced to one very big
> mistake--letting the Traditions win a seemingly minor point by buying into
> the idea of an "Ascension War." It shouldn't be a "War" at all,
> particularly not to the Technocracy.
True, except that the Technocracy is making the _same_
mistakes that the Hermetics made way back when! The
Trads aren't making them as often or as badly.
However, 1) the Trads aren't in any position to, and 2)
they've been there & done that. The Techies have a solid
hold on reality for the first time since the Roman Empire,
if they even had one then.
> But no, the Technocracy heard about this "War" thing, declared a Pogrom
> (and I'm surprised that the logic boys over in Iteration-X didn't kick
> over that word, as it clearly suggests that this was an emotional decision
> and not a rational one), and started devoting their precious time and
> effort to _removing_ Tradition mages, as if _that_ would "win the War."
> They should've been looking back at their records and thinking "Gee, we
> were winning when we were just showing the Sleepers an easy-to-understand,
> effective, and flexible way of doing things that they could master with
> just a little practice and absolutely _no_ innate magickal ability
> whatsoever; maybe we should stick to that."
Except human nature is interfering. They're on top now,
and it's time to deal with age-old, imagined slights. It's the
same old story being played out all over the world as the
old Colonial tyranny is removed; the natives have neither
forgiven nor forgotten the old feuds...
> I don't know. Maybe I'm alone here, but I can say that if the Ascension
> War were real and I could pick who won, I'd go with the Technocracy in a
> New York minute. I would much prefer a world founded on the ideas that
> _all_ humans can be powerful, happy, and effective, that all things can be
> ultimately within the grasp of human knowledge, and that all problems are
> essentially solvable, to the Traditional alternative, which is a world
> founded on the idea that ordinary humans are less powerful than a host of
> supernatural critters, that ancient and inhuman intelligences exist and
> can reshape the universe at a whim, and that such things as hopeless
> struggles are unavoidable. I suspect that most normal people would agree
> with me.
Ah, so you _have_ been reading NWO propaganda. <G>
Read Horizon: Stronghold of Hope. I'd take the Star Trek
future over that mismash, but it's still more benevolent
than the WoD...
> Oh, does that mean that mages, spirits, vampires, werewolves, the Fae, and
> all those other supernatural things would cease to exist? That the
> World of Darkness would lose all the shadowy figures in the wings?
> That's fantastic!
Ah, genocide is a _good_ thing. Are you sure you're not
talking about the Nephandi here?
> And to lurch suddenly onto a different topic, I also don't see what's so
> inherently awful about "limiting possibilities." Anyone who can't see the
> incredible and awe-inspiring vista that modern science opens up (and
> instead bitches about how it's "nitpicking, rigid, and boring, and it
> destorys all the wonder in the world") has absolutely no appreciation for
> wonder or beauty in the first place, and is simply faking it (probably
> assuming that things of wonder and beauty are somehow spoiled rather than
> enhanced by closer examination). Folks, even Iteration-X wouldn't want
> (or, actually, considering the stupid "War" they've let themselves get
> caught in, I should say that they _shouldn't_ want) human creativity and
> individual willpower to be crushed out of existence.
Read the ConBook on ItX. X itself is self-aware, and is
doing what it feels is necessary for self-preservation.
As for the 'wonder and beauty' bit, the problem is that
both sides think that 'winning the War' means destroying
the other side. Which limts wonder and beauty either
way. Try asking your average HIT Mark what it thinks
of a rainbow; it can probably give you exact statistics of
every frequency of light involved, but not one honest
opinion. OTOH, we have the Celestial Chorus, which spent
most of the end of the Mythic/Dark Ages killing Void
Engineers for seeing the beauty of the stars for what
they are: the true limitlessness of creation.
Any bets on the Nephandi being behind the whole thing?
<snip>
> The key thing to remember is that in the Mage setting, the Masses are
> _always_ right, and if they want something, there isn't a damn thing that
> all the mages in the universe can do about keeping that thing from them.
> The Technocracy "won" early because they showed the Masses something
> _worth_ wanting; they can "win" now just by sticking to that. But if they
> act like the Traditions, fighting this gloriously idiotic "Ascension War"
> as though winning it would prove anything at all, well, they deserve what
> they get.
There's a great quote in MtA about the last act of a
democracy being to elect a dictatorship. Once the
Masses voted in the Technocracy (not to be confused
with the Order of Reason) the Technocracy's ability to
_prevent_ the Masses from changing their minds made
them tyrants. The Technocracy isn't evil as a group; only
the Nephandi qualify, and even they may have members
who don't eat babies and violate innocents.
But misguided? IMO, _all_ the Mage groups are mis-
guided. Until they realize that the 'we're right and every-
one else is wrong' attitude is what's screwed up the
human race since day one, none of them, Technocracy,
Council, Marauder or Craft, will truly 'Ascend.'
--
=== / "What good is life...without friends?" -Barry Allen
O (/) "No evil shall escape my sight!" -Hal Jordan| Roland X:
=== / Support the Green Lantern Net Corps | Freelance
Jinx by Design: http://home.earthlink.net/~jinxmccoy | Immortal
Ian Turner
Ryan Franklin wrote:
>
> [ WARNING: a long rant follows. Hopefully a fun and thought-provoking
> one, though. ]
VERY fun and VERY thought-provoking. I eagerly await the Players Guide
to the Technocracy so that we can give these anachronistic table tilters
the what for!
Ian T
Information technology is the future. As I write the language, I
program the reader...
Mundstocks (Eric and/or Kymbr)
okay, here's my two cents worth...
IMHO, the main problem we have is that the Traditions <and
players> see the Technocracy as monolithic. This is the same
assumption that gets anti-government conspiracy theorists into
trouble.
The reason Technocracy aims and goals seem contradictory, excessive,
or just plain stupid is the same reason our government's policies
often seem that way: We are on the outside seeing the results of
various factions, cabals, and interest groups struggling for control
<or compromising, which is even more confusing :) >;, and from the
outside we can't tell any of them apart much less know what their aims
and goals are.
Admittedly, there are some very scary Conventions in the Technocracy,
with the New World Order and Iteration X springing immedately to mind.
On the other hand, the Euthanatos, Verbena, and OoH aren't much <any?>
better. I mean, how about _I_ decide when I'm going to die, no
bleeding into a cauldron to celebrate being alive, and I'm having
enough trouble with C++ much less Aramaic or Edomic or whatever the
secret language of the week is :)
<BTW don't get me started on the Chorus...>
Anyways, on the face of it the moral high ground belongs to the
Technocracy. They are merely doing now what the OoH did when they had
power...but by no means is Science Evil.
I could get started on what seems to be the inherent
anti-intellectualism of WoD, but I think we all agree this post is
long enough...
Ecm
Nope, no mage character name, no kewl .sig, that's it.
Ian Turner
Kyle Anderson Felker wrote:
> : First of all, given the way that the Traditions "recruit" new mages,
> : it doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their
> : power or not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the
> : average Sleeper is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest
> : piece of that power, for the simple reason that the average Sleeper
> : is not going to Awaken, is not going to have a sufficiently large
> : Avatar to work real magick even if Awakened, and is not going to
> : meet a member of the Traditions who will be both willing and able to
> : guide them in the intricacies of a specific paradigm. Who _cares_
> : if the Traditions don't have the rule "Thou shalt not share thy
> : powers with the Sleepers" chiseled in the cornerstone of every
> : Chantry? It's so ingrained in their methodology that it's beyond
> : being just a matter of policy--it's an integral part of being a
> : Traditional mage.
>
> Very true. Of couse, the Technocracy does the same thing.
Does it indeed? What about the computer I type on, the light I see the
keyboad by, the heater in my home, the electricity and the televisions
and the radio and my car and the printing presses that bang out my
gaming books???
Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or
a magic potion? No, they don't share like the Technocracy does. The
Technocracy is all about giving and sharing its power with the Sleepers
and so the Sleepers subconsciously help them. Paradox doesn't get
toasters, because we all like toasters. Paradox zaps those wands of
lightning bolts, because we all know that the Hermetics aren't going to
give us any, so why the Hell should we allow them to work???
Ian T
Ian Turner
Roland X wrote:
> Ah, so you _have_ been reading NWO propaganda. <G>
READING NWO propaganda? He IS NWO propaganda! It's wonderful, he
should write the intro to the Players Guide to the Technos.
Ian T
Jason Corley
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
: Roland X wrote:
: > Ah, so you _have_ been reading NWO propaganda. <G>
: READING NWO propaganda? He IS NWO propaganda! It's wonderful, he
: should write the intro to the Players Guide to the Technos.
There is no NWO propaganda, only varying degrees of truth.
(one of the perks of controlling the dictionary)
--
****************************************************************************
"Generally, things have gone about as far as they can possibly go when
things have got about as bad as they can reasonably get."--Tom Stoppard
Jason D. Corley (aka cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) is a fugitive from Reality
Z
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spake unto us:
>Ryan Franklin wrote:
>>
>> [ WARNING: a long rant follows. Hopefully a fun and thought-provoking
>> one, though. ]
>VERY fun and VERY thought-provoking. I eagerly await the Players Guide
>to the Technocracy so that we can give these anachronistic table tilters
>the what for!
I will be one of the first to buy it as well!!
Anachronistic table straightener,
Z
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spake unto us:
>Kyle Anderson Felker wrote:
>> : First of all, given the way that the Traditions "recruit" new mages,
>> : it doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their
>> : power or not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the
>> : average Sleeper is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest
>> : piece of that power, for the simple reason that the average Sleeper
>> : is not going to Awaken, is not going to have a sufficiently large
>> : Avatar to work real magick even if Awakened, and is not going to
>> : meet a member of the Traditions who will be both willing and able to
>> : guide them in the intricacies of a specific paradigm. Who _cares_
>> : if the Traditions don't have the rule "Thou shalt not share thy
>> : powers with the Sleepers" chiseled in the cornerstone of every
>> : Chantry? It's so ingrained in their methodology that it's beyond
>> : being just a matter of policy--it's an integral part of being a
>> : Traditional mage.
>>
>> Very true. Of couse, the Technocracy does the same thing.
>Does it indeed?
Yes it does, where are the space ships, the holo projectors, the high
tech weapons, the perfect drugs, the medical cures? They sure aren't
in my reach.
> What about the computer I type on, the light I see the
>keyboad by, the heater in my home, the electricity and the televisions
>and the radio and my car and the printing presses that bang out my
>gaming books???
The Computer and electricity is supposedly pioneered by the Virtual
Adepts and Sons of Ether (before they defected true)
Where did the farmers learn to farm the food that keeps you alive?
Where did the Japanese (that make many of the electronics in your
home) learn to sharpen their mental discipline? Who helps shape the
music and art that enhances your life (and the things that came about
as a result of previous art)? Who built the first weapons to hunt?
Who tracked down the spirits of the animals that were hunted and asked
them to sacrifice one life from their herd to feed the band of humans?
Who discovered fire to cook the meat? Who preseved the knowledge of
ancient times? Who brings billions of people hope in the world?
>Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or
>a magic potion? No, they don't share like the Technocracy does. The
>Technocracy is all about giving and sharing its power with the Sleepers
>and so the Sleepers subconsciously help them. Paradox doesn't get
>toasters, because we all like toasters. Paradox zaps those wands of
>lightning bolts, because we all know that the Hermetics aren't going to
>give us any, so why the Hell should we allow them to work???
Huh? Paradox zaps wands because hermetics don't give them out? if
Hermetics did give them out the wands would still get zapped.
Paradox doesn't get toasters because every one believes they should
work. I wouldn't say everyone likes nuclear weapons, but they work
because everyone believes they work.
Now ask what the Traditions done for you. most of the things I
mentioned were *not* done by the Technocracy, mainly because the
Technocracy didn't exist in any form until the 12th century, and they
didn't have any real force until the 13th or 14th century.
What if you did get a wand to cure a loved one of cancer? Well, dang
it doesn't work because the Masses say it doesn't work (thanks to the
Technocracy). So what is the point fo giving a wand to a Sleeper if
the wand won't work? Same reason that the Technocracy doesn't give
out plasma rifles or fusion engines.
Again you are judging the modern Traditions based on the stinginess of
the medieval Hermetics. The Dreamspeakers *always* gave out spiritual
charms and protections and healings to their people. The Verbena
weren't stingy with their people. The Akashiacs would share their
power to those with the strength of will and desire to live the style
of life that was neccesary to learn it. Same with most of the other
traditons, they require a certain life style, you must follow a path
if you want the power, because to weild power without becoming
corrupot, you need lots of discipline.
The Technocracy offers the quick and easy path, so its more
seductive to the Sleepers. :) Easy access to power; can you blame the
Sleepers?
Ryan Franklin
In article <337cf...@130.166.1.64>, Z <ejz...@csun.edu> wrote:
>Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spake unto us:
>>Kyle Anderson Felker wrote:
>>> : it doesn't matter whether they recognize the folly of hoarding their
>>> : power or not; hoarding is unavoidable and inevitable. Because the
>>> : average Sleeper is never, ever, EVER going to get even the tiniest
My vanity compels me to point out that I wrote this section. Besides,
this way poor Kyle won't get hit by the various rocks and bottles I expect
to be hurled at me for feeding this particular fire.
So anyway, Ian said:
>>Does it indeed?
>
>Yes it does, where are the space ships, the holo projectors, the high
>tech weapons, the perfect drugs, the medical cures? They sure aren't
>in my reach.
They're on the way. (Although why you're so eager for high-tech weapons
is beyond me. Target practice, right?)
Science is slow progress punctuated by sudden leaps of understanding, not
an omniscient genie in a magic lamp; and in retrospect, the reasons
why those sudden leaps occurred are often easily spotted. It seemed
like a major shock when Oswald Avery proved that DNA was the molecule
which carried genetic information, or when the potential of nuclear
fission was realized, or when any number of other truly world-changing
discoveries came to light...but generally, upon further examination, you
can see that the ideas which were so "novel and ground-breaking" really
_did_ build directly upon the foundations laid by earlier research.
In game terms, those foundations are the crucial underpinnings of the
Technocracy's plan. Simply dropping a device in the Masses' laps and
saying "oh, here's that Sony 3DTV surround sound entertainment system you
wanted" won't work, because the delicate framework of belief in the basic
concepts of such a machine hasn't been built yet. Until it is, it's
outside consensual reality and thus draws a ton of Paradox which makes it
spark and give off a weird smell and blow all the fuses in your house when
you plug it in. If you want to know whether the Technocracy is going to
come up with something, you have to try to read between the lines of the
basic research being done today; there have been steady advances in areas
like holography, drug design, electronics, etc., etc...and it's those
advances that will make it possible for you to get a Holovision set that
you can trust, because you'll have been exposed to the underlying
principles enough to know that such a device works, and doesn't contradict
any of our basic knowledge about how the universe operates.
Saying that the Technocracy isn't giving up their advances to the Sleepers
is a bit like saying that your kid is a failure because she hasn't
landed a high-paying job and gotten rich and famous...while you're
standing in the delivery room watching her birth. Some things take time,
and it's every bit as ridiculous to think that scientific advances can
happen overnight as it is to expect "grownup" achievements from a newborn
baby. Have a little patience, and take heart in the fact that the signs
are all indicating that all the things you wanted (and more) are possible
and will be available someday.
>The Computer and electricity is supposedly pioneered by the Virtual
>Adepts and Sons of Ether (before they defected true)
Before they defected, they were as much the Technocracy as the most
dedicated NWO operative. What have the VAs and the SoEs done since
leaving that rivals the contributions they made to human society when they
were working with an entire organization dedicated to replacing magick
with science? _Those_ are the things you can attribute solely to them.
Just 'cause they were the Supervising Convention for the big electricity
or computer project doesn't mean they ran the whole show themselves; the
other Conventions all had a hand in developing and introducing those
things.
> Where did the farmers learn to farm the food that keeps you alive?
Who introduced crop rotation? Who gave _reasons_ for paying attention to
replenishing the nutrients in the soil? Who has been improving farming
techniques and increasing crop yields? Who developed the infrastructure
that lets people in New York buy pineapples in the dead of winter? Who
developed our knowledge of nutrition? Who hasn't been sitting on their
butt for a thousand-odd years saying "Yup, we invented farming?"
>Where did the Japanese (that make many of the electronics in your
>home) learn to sharpen their mental discipline?
The Akashic Brothers, of course. Why did Japan make so many electronics,
and prove to be as adept at marketing them as it was at manufacturing
them? Who made that kind of accomplishment possible?
>Who helps shape the music and art that enhances your life (and the things
>that came about as a result of previous art)?
Creative and talented humans, of course. Society at large, too. The
input of Mages (who have things they think are more important to worry
about) is minuscule compared to the wonderful things that humans could and
still do all on their own. I find the implication that art needed to be
shaped by supernaturals to be rather offensive; are ordinary humans then
soulless, dull cretins who are incapable of any real inspiration?
Who has introduced many new media for humans to exercise their creativity
with? Who has encouraged literacy and provided inexpensive and
far-reaching ways of distributing art to people all around the world?
>Who built the first weapons to hunt?
>Who tracked down the spirits of the animals that were hunted and asked
>them to sacrifice one life from their herd to feed the band of humans?
Who made hunting a merely recreational activity in most countries, by
providing easier and safer ways of acquiring food?
>Who discovered fire to cook the meat?
Certainly not a Tradition mage; _that_ far back in human history, you can
safely assume that all mages were de facto Orphans. Who has been
providing easier ways of cooking meat and other things? Who has improved
our ability to keep food fresh and contaminant-free, so that less of it
gets wasted?
>Who preseved the knowledge of ancient times?
No one; not the _really_ ancient times, anyway. Who introduced the study
of history as a critical discipline rather than just a jumble of confused
and unsubstantiated tales? Who championed the cause of education for
_everyone_?
> Who brings billions of people hope in the world?
Here's a Free Clue[tm]: it's not most of the Traditions. Billions of
people aren't looking to hermetic magic or martial arts or mediums or
virtual reality or Ether or any of that other crap to give them reasons to
wake up and get out of bed every morning. The only Tradition that can be
honestly said to provide hope to any sizable number of people is the
Celestial Chorus. So bravo for them; what the hell are they _doing_ with
that opportunity, hmm? What are they giving to the Sleepers other than
this warm fuzzy hope? I'm happy and hopeful when I get my first
Publisher's Clearing House envelope, but by the time I've received my 20th
one without winning even a lousy Fifth Prize, well, I can't help but think
that my hope was misplaced. Right now the CC is looking an awful lot like
Ed McMahon--all "you might be a winner" talk, but no really effective
action.
The Technocracy is trying to instill hope in the Sleepers by empowering
them. Interesting that this brand of hope includes the notion that the
Sleepers _can_ be hopeful because _they_ are capable of overcoming the
challenges before them. Mostly effective action, little emphasis on
giving them a concrete focus for hope (which is why they've made so little
headway against the CC in this arena).
>Now ask what the Traditions done for you.
And after you've done that, ask the important question: What are the
Traditions _doing_ for you, as in right now, not thousands of years ago?
Since the list will be rather short, you'll have plenty of time to ponder
what they _will_ do for you in the future. Which won't amount to much in
comparison to what the Technocracy has already done and the things it is
clearly hoping to accomplish later.
>most of the things I
>mentioned were *not* done by the Technocracy, mainly because the
>Technocracy didn't exist in any form until the 12th century, and they
>didn't have any real force until the 13th or 14th century.
And most of the things you mentioned have improved considerably since the
12th century, with truly staggering advances in the last hundred years.
Yeah, great, pats on the back all around for those early mage pioneers who
did such wonderful things--but even though their paradigms were quite
Traditional, it seems likely that personality-wise they would have been
more comfortable with the Technocracy, had it existed at that time. But
in the modern world, the best things the Traditions do for people are
almost entirely small-scale efforts rather than the major, sweeping
improvements the idealists in the Technocracy regularly attempt. The
Trads do a fair job with "Act locally"; it remains to be seen whether they
can master the second half ("Think globally"), and it looks to me like
their paradigms aren't flexible or inclusive enough to make that an easy
task.
Any of 'em who had any _real_ committment to the idea of empowering the
masses would be looking for ways to correct the abuses and mismanagement
within the Technocracy, not supplant the Technocracy entirely. Because
right now the Technos are the ones who have the best shot at making
humanity live up to its full potential, the ones with the best track
record, and the ones who can get the Sleepers excited about the
possibilities ahead of them.
>Again you are judging the modern Traditions based on the stinginess of
>the medieval Hermetics. The Dreamspeakers *always* gave out spiritual
>charms and protections and healings to their people.
But not the ability to make spiritual charms and protections and healings,
because they couldn't confer that power on the Sleepers under their
paradigm. And they didn't usually do nice things to anyone who wasn't
"their people." And what the hell does the ancient Dreamspeaker practice
of doing things for his/her tribe have to do with the modern Traditions?
What do Dreamspeakers _today_ do for humanity?
>The Verbena weren't stingy with their people.
Just with other people, usually. And again, what about the modern-day
Verbena? What's their major contribution to human society? Crop circles?
>The Akashiacs would share their power to those with the strength of will
>and desire to live the style of life that was neccesary to learn it.
And if you lacked that strength of will or preferred a different
lifestyle, well, the path also _leaves_ our temple, Sleeper. We have
nothing to teach you. The Akashic Brotherhood has stuck to their
paradigm, which is admirable, I suppose; it's just a shame that their
paradigm does a poor job of addressing the Masses.
>Same with most of the other
>traditons, they require a certain life style, you must follow a path
>if you want the power, because to weild power without becoming
>corrupot, you need lots of discipline.
Or strong ideals. Or both. And on the subject of discipline, I think
you'd find that only the Akashic Brotherhood rivals the Technocracy in the
discipline category. Science _requires_ discipline, and attention to
detail.
> The Technocracy offers the quick and easy path, so its more
>seductive to the Sleepers. :) Easy access to power; can you blame the
>Sleepers?
Nope, I can't. And just because the path is quick and easy doesn't mean
it's the Dark Side of the Force; sometimes it's quick and easy because
it's just a better path. Am I being "seduced" by the "quick and easy
path" of my front door because I choose to use it rather than a wrecking
ball to get into my apartment? Or am I just doing the best thing for me
(and my walls)? Maybe the Traditions should be thinking about that
question; it might inspire them to shift their paradigm to something which
doesn't ignore the feelings and desires of the Sleepers around them.
--
god knows they need _something_ to inspire them that way
ry...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu
Deirdre M. Brooks
>> Very true. Of couse, the Technocracy does the same thing.
>Does it indeed? What about the computer I type on, the light I see the
>keyboad by, the heater in my home, the electricity and the televisions
>and the radio and my car and the printing presses that bang out my
>gaming books???
Point for the Technos.
>Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or
>a magic potion? No, they don't share like the Technocracy does. The
>Technocracy is all about giving and sharing its power with the Sleepers
>and so the Sleepers subconsciously help them. Paradox doesn't get
>toasters, because we all like toasters. Paradox zaps those wands of
>lightning bolts, because we all know that the Hermetics aren't going to
>give us any, so why the Hell should we allow them to work???
I'm sure the CoXers will share their magick potions... :-)
Seriously, of all Traditions which are most likely to have a sympathetic
view for the masses, I tend to think that the:
Sons of Ether
Cult of Ecstasy
Virtual Adepts
Celestial Chorus
are the most likely. Given the chance, they certainly would try to bring
benefits to the Sleepers.
As for the others, it's hard to say.
>Ian T
Mike Bruner
There's one thing that keeps popping up in Tradition vs. Technocratic
disputes, and that is creating things the sleepers can use. Supposedly
the Technocracy is the only good group because only they can help the
sleepers. Reason I was thinking of this is because of something I read
recently. Someone was talking about this thing called affirmations. You
come up with some kind of goal, write it 15 times on a piece of paper
(i.e. "I, John Doe, will become rich") each day, and supposedly
coincidences will occur that achieve your goal because you're focusing
your mind on it. This got me thinking, maybe the way the Traditions
could give sleepers benefits via their systems by popularizing such
things. One could argue things like hedge magic can be encouraged in the
populace at large for the Order of Hermes type paradigm (or similar such
things for other groups, maybe meditating on a goal for Akashic
Brotherhood, prayer for Celestial Chorus (heck, considering the powers
of True Faith one could almost say it's the hedge magick of the
Celestial Chorus paradigm)), etc.) and the beliefs of the mages behind
the static magic in questions could be gradually worked into it as new
discoveries (which is pretty much how the Technocracy works its stuff
into technology; it pushes scientists along until they "discover"
Technocratic inventions and theories). So it probably wouldn't actually
be that hard for Tradition mages to work out ways to help the sleepers
out with their styles of magick; all they need to do is work enough
belief into a static version of their magick and they've got the tool
they need to extend what they learn to others. Heck, I'd say quite a few
of them are helping try to aid the sleepers through such methods now;
Celestial Chorus is teaching them the power of prayer and such. So
nothing says if the Technocrats lose control of reality that the
sleepers will be automatically left to rot; the Traditions have ways to
make sure they can have more power over their enviroment. The only
reason it wasn't done before is because the Traditionists weren't paying
enough attention to that kind of thing, something it can argued they
won't forget again as badly (considering how close it's coming to wiping
them out now). So the Technocracy's arguments about what they are doing
fall somewhat flat; there were other options for helping the sleepers
besides going after everyone else who disagrees with their paradigm.
They could have used their strength as a group to demand the other mages
do better about helping the sleepers, but instead of really trying to
help the sleepers (imagine how much good ALL the mages of the world
working on aiding the sleepers could have done) they're just doing the
same thing the Traditions did at that point by forcing their paradigm
down everyone's throats and any "help" they give is secondary to that
goal. Heck, if say a Celestial Chorus priest figured out how to convince
people in a poor neighborhood that prayer would indeed work miracles and
helped them use such things to better their lives, do you think the
Technocracy would sit there and say "Well done, you've helped those
people!"? Or isn't it juuust a little more likely they'd arrange the
Chorister's death and/or discredit his stuff enough to screw it up, even
though it ruins the lives of the people he was helping since they can't
afford to buy the technology of the Technocracy to help their lives
instead? I think that one's pretty easy to figure out the answer to, and
also pretty clearly points out what the Technocracy is really interested
in... For all their preaching, the Technocracy only helps sleepers
because it helps themselves too.
--
Mike Bruner
mbr...@knox.edu (remove .nospam from email)
"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it."
"Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me?"
"One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run
with a wooden stake"
--Jack Handly, Deep Thoughts
"But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and
Juliet is AAAHHHHHHH THE SUN!!!!!" *FOOM!*
-- Toreador Theatre
David Johnston
>
> >keyboad by, the heater in my home, the electricity and the televisions
> >and the radio and my car and the printing presses that bang out my
> >gaming books???
>
> Point for the Technos.
>
> >Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or
> >a magic potion? No, they don't share like the Technocracy does. The
> >Technocracy is all about giving and sharing its power with the Sleepers
> >and so the Sleepers subconsciously help them. Paradox doesn't get
> >toasters, because we all like toasters. Paradox zaps those wands of
> >lightning bolts, because we all know that the Hermetics aren't going to
> >give us any, so why the Hell should we allow them to work???
>
> I'm sure the CoXers will share their magick potions... :-)
>
> Seriously, of all Traditions which are most likely to have a sympathetic
> view for the masses, I tend to think that the:
>
> Sons of Ether
> Cult of Ecstasy
> Virtual Adepts
> Celestial Chorus
>
> are the most likely. Given the chance, they certainly would try to bring
> benefits to the Sleepers.
Frankly I'm surprised that you left out the group among the non
technomancers who I think would work the hardest to transmit at least
part of their power to the masses. The Verbena. While the CC would
probably work hard to benefit the masses, most of their benefits would
come through mediation by a priestly class, but the Verbena would
probably prefer a world where everyone had a functional charm or two,
particularly the women.
Steven True
Wait! The fact of the matter is that the tech was started to help people.
They looked around a world in the grasp of fear and superstition and
wanted to bring a little order so that the Sleepers who have no idea whats
really happening can get through it.
In today's world, what we have good or bad is the result of technocracy's
efforts. And since I tend to think that the present is better than the
past then that means what they have done is good for mankind.
Now I can see the traditions views of limiting human imagination and the
sheer wonder of the world. But, aren't many of them just afraid of losing
power.
POWER. That's what its about now, idealogy is a convient cover.
If the tech or traditions wanted to help the Sleepers then they would make
them relize the power their thoughts and sheer numbers have on the world
around them. I.E. relativity only works because 5.2 billion believe it
can.
The freakiest show I know,
Is the show of my own,
Living my life all alone,
In and out of the Twilight Zone.
-Red Hot Chili Peppers
"Nobody Weird Like Me"
Mike Bruner
Jason Corley wrote:
>
> Mike Bruner (mbr...@knox.edu) wrote:
>
> : Heck, if say a Celestial Chorus priest figured out how to convince
> : people in a poor neighborhood that prayer would indeed work miracles and
> : helped them use such things to better their lives, do you think the
> : Technocracy would sit there and say "Well done, you've helped those
> : people!"?
>
> control of their own lives, not turn over the control to mages _or even to
> some mystical omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity with their best
> wishes at heart_. They help those who help themselves. Ask any
Interesting expression, "They help those who help themselves"; I often
hear it as justification for leaving someone in the gutter instead of
lifting a finger to help...
$yndicate
> mage who is more important, the consumer or the producer and he'll just
> laugh and ask you which there are more of.
I ain't buying it; MAYBE you could ignore that example (I still think
they are choosing of their own free will to worship and if the Celestial
Chorister is doing what he should he's letting them decide what to pray
for and who to pray to (under the paradigm of the One it doesn't really
matter who you pray to for the most part)) but the Technocracy would
crack down just as hard on humans being taught thaumaturgy, and that
certainly goes with the idea of "the power comes from you". They aren't
even generous with Sons of Ether and Virtual Adept technology; if they
can't twist it to fit their own views they'll discredit/destroy it even
if it would help mankind. And they're the ones judging what helps
mankind, not mankind itself.
> --
> ****************************************************************************
> "Generally, things have gone about as far as they can possibly go when
> things have got about as bad as they can reasonably get."--Tom Stoppard
> Jason D. Corley (aka cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) is a fugitive from Reality
--
Z
"Ian Lowe (at work!)" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
>>Celestial Chorus
>NO NO NO NO NO NO
>The benefit that the celestial chorus brings to sleepers is the once only,
>offer of a lifetime, choice between turning to our lord (fill in the
>blank), or burning to death on this here bonfire with six inches of steel
>rammed up your ass. In modern terms? well, I know of at least one crank who
>has come out with opinions like: "they" (another religious group) don't
>deserve a vote, shouldn't get benefits(welfare), shouldn't get health care,
>should be left to rot in the streets etc. now, in the WoD, where force of
>will have a real power (and arguably in our own world as well), what is the
>spiritual effect of having so many fervent people all running around
>believing in a violent horrible twisted hell for everyone except
>themselves?????
First of all, I'm not a fan of the "Big Three" of organized religion
(Judeu-Chirsitian-Islamic). But, I have a real problem with this view
of the Celestial chorus as well. Not even close to every ordained
member to a monotheistic religion is a Celestial Chorus member. The
Celestial Chorus sees the One as being the Supreme being of the
universe, its a cross culture thing. Just because one member may have
Awoke to calling the One "Jesus", and another awoke to calling the One
"Allah" doesn't mean they continue to think that they worship two
seperate Ones. Part of the fundamentals of the Chorus is that the One
has many faces and many trappings, but is ultimatly the same. The
view you are putting forth of the Chorus is the mortal members who use
their religious organization for political purposes (men like Pat
Robertson and Louis Farakhan are not even close to being Awakened).
I agree that the Chorus has persecuted *other* beliefs, like the
various Verbena sects, and Dreamspeaker's tribes, Cultists and others.
But people who use their religion to decry how "they" shouldn't have
certain rights are both rare and chances are not Awakened. Hubris has
a real effect in WoD.
Z
________________________________
"The great sin of the Technocracy
is not science, or even murder --
it is the oppression under one vision."
"So You're a tick. So What?
I mean I get all kinds here.
Imperial Romans, Extraterrestrials,
Time Travelling Fish. You think
being a tick is bad, try being
The Walking Dead."
"Gee, no thanks."
"Yeah, well, you see
what I mean, right."
- The soda jerk and The Tick
conversing
Tick #1
Z
Queenie <lrobi...@qnet.com> spake unto us:
>Jason Corley wrote:
>>
>> Mike Bruner (mbr...@knox.edu) wrote:
>>
>> : Heck, if say a Celestial Chorus priest figured out how to convince
>> : people in a poor neighborhood that prayer would indeed work miracles and
>> : helped them use such things to better their lives, do you think the
>> : Technocracy would sit there and say "Well done, you've helped those
>> : people!"?
>>
>> Not a bit, and why should they? The Technocrats want the Sleepers to have
>> control of their own lives, not turn over the control to mages _or even to
>> some mystical omniscient omnipresent omnipotent entity with their best
>> wishes at heart_. They help those who help themselves. Ask any $yndicate
>> mage who is more important, the consumer or the producer and he'll just
>> laugh and ask you which there are more of.
>Actually the Technocracy does want to protect the mortals - but they do
>not want them to decide for themselves.
>The truth is the way the technocracy relates to sleepers isn't much like
>Big Brother - its more like early 18th century Husband. Think about it
>- the technocracy wants the sleepers to be safe, and they accomplish
>this by sheltering them, keeping them ignorant of the truth of affairs,
>restricting their choices, giving them candy and frilly things to keep
>them content, speaking down to them, and generally smothering them with
>their chivalry.
>Any comments from the women on the list about how wonderful a system
>that was? About how it was better to be a woman in the days when you
>didn't have to do anything yourself - because you couldn't?
>The women wouldn't take it from the men, I doubt the sleepers would tech
>it from the techs if they knew about it. People may not like the world,
>and we all know it can be tough - but historically any group who has
>been force sheltered, smothered with over-protectivness has rebelled.
Wow, great insight. I just read a book called "The Awakening" many of
you probably read it as well. If not, its about just what the great
Queenie just said, a woman in the late 19th century who is beginning
to Awaken and break free from the repressive Victorian Husband, a very
good analogy to what the Sleepers are beginning to do in the late 20th
century with the repressive Victorian Technocracy.
>This, however, is not to say the Traditions are right. Most of them
>don't really want the sleepers to be free to choose, to strive, to seek,
>or to find for themselves. They want the sleepers to be free to decide
>that their particular way is right.
Ian R Lowe
Z wrote in article <33812...@130.166.1.64>...
>"Ian Lowe (at work!)" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
"spake"?????
<snip>
>First of all, I'm not a fan of the "Big Three" of organized religion
>(Judeu-Chirsitian-Islamic). But, I have a real problem with this view
>of the Celestial chorus as well. Not even close to every ordained
>member to a monotheistic religion is a Celestial Chorus member.
Very true!
<snip, of good stuff>
Yes, you are quite right, the position of stating that ALL of the celestial
chorus think this way is wrong, and as another poster made the point, is
shown up as ridiculous when we take into account people like Mother Teresa
et al.
The point I was making (rather badly, on the second reading) is that the
whold concept of having a "One" who is a distinct entity above, greater etc
than humans, as opposed to the "Force" concept from star wars etc, of a One
that is in and of al things, leads to humanisation of the divine, and
therefore to the addition of human motives and sentiments to this divine
"thing". Almost imediately you have the "well (s)he is more like me than
like you" arguments, and voila: a divisive organisation.
just as ITx are more prone than most to undervalue biological life, and the
NWO are more prone to power mad politics, the celestial chorus are more
prone to fanatical lunatics.
Basically, the generalisation that All celestail chorists are mad Swaggart
types, is just as wrong as the assertion that (all) Technocrats are evil or
misguided!!
Ian.
Christopher Daub
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
: Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or
: a magic potion? No, they don't share like the Technocracy does. The
: Technocracy is all about giving and sharing its power with the Sleepers
: and so the Sleepers subconsciously help them. Paradox doesn't get
: toasters, because we all like toasters. Paradox zaps those wands of
: lightning bolts, because we all know that the Hermetics aren't going to
: give us any, so why the Hell should we allow them to work???
Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
layer?
: Ian T
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Daub (AKA BF Groove), Phys. Sci., Univ. of Guelph SV '91 Carleton
*Event Horizon* -- Sundays at 10pm on CFRU 93.3 FM
http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~cfru/programs/shows/e_horizon/index.html
SLEEP WHEN YOU'RE DEAD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Johnston
Steven True wrote:
>
> Wait! The fact of the matter is that the tech was started to help people.
> They looked around a world in the grasp of fear and superstition and
> wanted to bring a little order so that the Sleepers who have no idea whats
> really happening can get through it.
> In today's world, what we have good or bad is the result of technocracy's
> efforts. And since I tend to think that the present is better than the
> past then that means what they have done is good for mankind.
>
> Now I can see the traditions views of limiting human imagination and the
> sheer wonder of the world. But, aren't many of them just afraid of losing
> power.
>
> POWER. That's what its about now, idealogy is a convient cover.
> If the tech or traditions wanted to help the Sleepers then they would make
> them relize the power their thoughts and sheer numbers have on the world
> around them. I.E. relativity only works because 5.2 billion believe it
> can.
On the other hand, if they knew they had the power, they couldn't use
it. It's only because they don't know they have the power that that
they are unified enough in their ideas that they shape the world
effectively.
Z
"Ian R Lowe" <ian....@btinternet.com> spake unto us:
>"spake"?????
yeah :)
> The point I was making (rather badly, on the second reading) is that the
>whold concept of having a "One" who is a distinct entity above, greater etc
>than humans, as opposed to the "Force" concept from star wars etc, of a One
>that is in and of al things, leads to humanisation of the divine, and
>therefore to the addition of human motives and sentiments to this divine
>"thing". Almost imediately you have the "well (s)he is more like me than
>like you" arguments, and voila: a divisive organisation.
>just as ITx are more prone than most to undervalue biological life, and the
>NWO are more prone to power mad politics, the celestial chorus are more
>prone to fanatical lunatics.
Execpt it is It X's inherent paradigm that biology is flawed and
should be imporved with the machine. But I think the corellation
between power mad politics (as opposed to just power politics normally
practiced :) ) and fanatical lunatics is a good one.
>Basically, the generalisation that All celestail chorists are mad Swaggart
>types, is just as wrong as the assertion that (all) Technocrats are evil or
>misguided!!
The problem with Swaggart types is they use religion as a guise for
making money. The problem that has been in the Chorus is (mostly was)
when they begin to think they are right to the point they start
burning those that don't agree.
I think very few Technocrats are evil or misguided; people just
forget that the official stance of the Technocracy is "One Universe,
One Paradigm." Like any extreme view, its dangerous.
Z
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> spake unto us:
>Frankly I'm surprised that you left out the group among the non
>technomancers who I think would work the hardest to transmit at least
>part of their power to the masses. The Verbena. While the CC would
>probably work hard to benefit the masses, most of their benefits would
>come through mediation by a priestly class, but the Verbena would
>probably prefer a world where everyone had a functional charm or two,
>particularly the women.
The Verbena aren't feminists, if I am correct, they are just more
balanced. They are just stereotyped that way because during the witch
hunts it was easier to pick on the women, since virtually all of them
lacked resources to defend themselves without resorting to magick (and
worsening their case and others accused). The females may have a
majority in the Tradtion, if so its because they are based more on an
equal basis (which would attract women, as opposed to the Sons of
Ether's reported policies, for example).
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Christopher Daub wrote:
[in response to Ian Turner]
[snip pieces where Ian states 'Technomagick works because it generally
helps humanity, and we've come to trust it, not so for Traditions']
> Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
> layer?
I can give you three answers -- I don't know which one is right.
(1) The Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether (and similar scientifically-
aware Tradition Mages), in their constant attempt to snafu the
Technocracy, have introduced these lingering doubts and weaknesses
into 'reliable science,' with the hope of ultimately persuading
mankind to desert their 'dangerous' practices.
(Quantum theory was introduced by the Etherites for the same reason;
they sought to shoot inexplicable holes in the Technocrat theories.)
The Technocracy, of course, is 24-7 on the move to try to eliminate
(disprove) these theories -- but they're dealing with Mages as well-
versed in the scientific paradigm as they are themselves, so it's
extremely slow going, and they risk undoing the rest of their work.
(2) The Technocracy (who continually keep 'future developments' ten or
twenty years down the line away from Sleepers, so they can slowly
introduce them) already has answers (or future ramifications) for
these problems.
Perhaps the depleted ozone layer, for instance, will lead to the
development of some gaseous 'patch' or 'shield' (like _Highlander 2_
(heh)), which will have latent mind-control powers, or will make
possible some unforeseen future development (bubbles of atmosphere).
Or the nuclear threat will lead to a new form of power, which
happens to somehow garner Quintessence for the Technocracy, I dunno.
(3) The Technocracy simply screwed up! Creating something so vast and
reality-encompassing as the 'laws of physics,' etc., etc., is such
an intricate and complicated practice that, if you're not careful,
some of your rules will invariably contradict one another -- and,
even if you are careful, some of the factors you've introduced may
have unwanted side effects due to pre-existing theories you failed
to take into account.
Hence a Progenitor lab team is cloistered away somewhere and, after
perfecting this 'miracle of science' called the chlorofluorocarbon,
sets it loose on the world, only to receive a frantic call from a
atmospheric research team of Void Engineers hours later --
'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!? Our established work proves that your new gas
will erode the 'protective ozone shield' we got them to believe in
twelve years ago! Now if we try to pull one or the other back,
we'll end up with a Paradox backlash the size of Manhattan!'
(Of course, the Technocrats won't use the above meta-terminology --
most of them truly believe in science, and their creations, and do
not share the other factions' "We-shape-reality" viewpoint -- but
you get the idea.)
This (harmful Technocratic science) makes for interesting discussion.
-- S. Skoog
Blake
>Christopher Daub wrote:
>[in response to Ian Turner]
>
>[snip pieces where Ian states 'Technomagick works because it generally
> helps humanity, and we've come to trust it, not so for Traditions']
>
>> Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
>> layer?
>
want them, I'm not sure: It could be that the Cold War and Nuclear
Proliferation were just steps in a technarch plan to eventually
produce
a unified World Government; or it could be that they eventually plan
to use them on the Traditions, or other threats; maybe they're going
to use them to stop and asteroid or commet from striking the earth
(actually a monsterous Nephandic attack).
CFC's and other polutants, were probably meant to be benign or were
unexpected paradox side effects that became mired in consensual
reality.
In either case they have been picked up by the nephandi (the Garou
Wyrm) and twisted towards evil ends. Why do you think
environmentalism
gets so much support? It's because the Technocracy *does* want to do
something about it, they just can't suddenly dump many useful
technologies
that they spent decades (or centuries) working into the dominant
paradigm,
and so the Wyrm continues to benefit from them...
-----------Posted via Billyboard News-----------
http://www.billyboard.com -Free Public Web News Server-Read, Subscribe and Post
K Kuhn
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.970519...@rigel.oac.uci.edu>,
Steven True <spt...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
<snip>
> Now I can see the traditions views of limiting human imagination and the
> sheer wonder of the world. But, aren't many of them just afraid of losing
> power.
>
> POWER. That's what its about now, idealogy is a convient cover.
> If the tech or traditions wanted to help the Sleepers then they would make
> them relize the power their thoughts and sheer numbers have on the world
> around them. I.E. relativity only works because 5.2 billion believe it
> can.
5.2 billion people believe in relativity? I'm not sure 5.2 billion people
even know algebra or how to balance a checkbook ;)
And maybe the Techies aren't actually doing anything to change the
paradigm. Myabe what the NWO is doing instead is persuading the rest of
the mages, Techie and Traddie, that all the inventions and scientific
discoveries the Sleepers come up with are actually due to mages inventing
them. Given the hubris of the mages, it would be a far easier task to
make them think they're the greatest, after all. And there's no way the
Tradition types could stop the changing paradigm either, because this
brilliant strategy ensures that the Traditions will keep attacking the
Technocracy, and never figure out that the reason blowing up Autochthonia,
etc. doesn't do a thing to stop the Technocracy from instituting their
goals is because the Technocracy has simply jumped on the bandwagon and
doesn't have anything to do with it at all.
Jason Corley
Mike Bruner (mbr...@knox.edu) wrote:
: Jason Corley wrote:
: > $yndicate
: > mage who is more important, the consumer or the producer and he'll just
: > laugh and ask you which there are more of.
: I ain't buying it; MAYBE you could ignore that example (I still think
: they are choosing of their own free will to worship and if the Celestial
: Chorister is doing what he should he's letting them decide what to pray
: for and who to pray to (under the paradigm of the One it doesn't really
: matter who you pray to for the most part))
It doesn't matter to the Technocracy either, that's my point. The
Technocracy doesn't want miracles to work because they don't want people's
lives controlled by some omniscient omnipotent force _even if that force
has people's best interests at heart_. Turning over _any_ amount of
control over one's life (beyond the usual social contract stuff of
'agreeing', loosely speaking, not to murder people or shout fire in
crowded theatres and the like) to _anything_ is unacceptable to the
concept of freedom, which, by the way, was _invented_ by the Technocracy.
: but the Technocracy would
: crack down just as hard on humans being taught thaumaturgy, and that
: certainly goes with the idea of "the power comes from you".
What, are you _nuts_? Sure, that's fine for those of us who have big
mighty Avatars or lots and lots of willpower with which to influence
reality, but if we replaced technology with thaumaturgy, the average joe
on the street is _instantly screwed_ because he can't use it one little
bit when you compare him to people like Mages. The Technocracy couldn't
care less about thaumaturgy if it empowered sleepers, but the only people
who thaumaturgy empowers are people who are mages or near-mages anyway,
and those are _precisely_ the sorts of people the Technocracy opposes.
And yes, they _are themselves those sorts of people_. Which is why the
last act of the Technocracy will be to abolish itself.
: They aren't
: even generous with Sons of Ether and Virtual Adept technology; if they
: can't twist it to fit their own views they'll discredit/destroy it even
: if it would help mankind.
Well, gee, let me see, if they can 'twist it to fit their own views', and
their views are pointed towards helping mankind, then sure, I guess they
do go around twisting that technology. And why not?
: And they're the ones judging what helps
: mankind, not mankind itself.
This is a valid point. But of course the same can be said for _any_ Mage.
All Mages suffer from hubris, it comes with the territory.
Jason Corley
Christopher Daub (cd...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
: layer?
Nuclear Weapons:
The Sleepers are in control of those. If nuclear reactions were written
out of the paradigm, all those people who need radiation therapy for their
cancer are just out of luck, eh? And what is the sun supposed to run on?
CFCs:
Paradox. Even the Technomancers get it. Since the $yndicate paradigm is
more prevalent than any other paradigm, new developments are greeted with
the 'there ain't no such thing as a free lunch' effect. Inventions that
produce CFCs are credible because of this effect, whereas things like cold
fusion aren't. (Yet.) You'll notice that as soon as technology
'advanced' to the point where CFCs no longer were produced, there was a
movement to ban them. (Get rid of those Paradox spirits.)
David Johnston
Z wrote:
>
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> spake unto us:
>
> >Frankly I'm surprised that you left out the group among the non
> >technomancers who I think would work the hardest to transmit at least
> >part of their power to the masses. The Verbena. While the CC would
> >probably work hard to benefit the masses, most of their benefits would
> >come through mediation by a priestly class, but the Verbena would
> >probably prefer a world where everyone had a functional charm or two,
> >particularly the women.
>
> The Verbena aren't feminists, if I am correct, they are just more
> balanced. They are just stereotyped that way because during the witch
That is feminism. But I did not mean to imply that magic wouldn't be
available to men as well. Just that men might be less likely to take
the time to learn charms.
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <5lvoib$geg$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason
Corley) writes:
>Mike Bruner (mbr...@knox.edu) wrote:
>It doesn't matter to the Technocracy either, that's my point. The
>Technocracy doesn't want miracles to work because they don't want people's
>lives controlled by some omniscient omnipotent force _even if that force
>has people's best interests at heart_. Turning over _any_ amount of
Shall we rephrase that? The Technocracy doesn't want miracles because they
don't want people to have the freedom to choose which Paradigm they'd
rather pursue. Instead, they'd rather ram their own pre-approved reality
down everyone's throats and reduce the masses to the lowest common
denominator.
>control over one's life (beyond the usual social contract stuff of
>'agreeing', loosely speaking, not to murder people or shout fire in
>crowded theatres and the like) to _anything_ is unacceptable to the
>concept of freedom, which, by the way, was _invented_ by the Technocracy.
Jason Corley, I usually find your opinions well-thought-out and
reasonable... But this... How can you even imagine the Union (One World,
One Truth, One Paradigm) does more than give lip-service to the concept of
freedom?
The Progenitors decide what goes into our bodies, Iteration X wants us all
to be a part of the Machine, the New World Order actively rewrites and
reinterprets history to influence how we think (not to mention the concept
of "Mindscaping"). The Syndicate tells you what to buy, where to eat, how
to dress...and people do it.
Look at MECHA and Null-B...Look at what they did with the Consensus to
"teach the Sons of Ether a lesson."
To quote the ST Guide:
"* Low-Level Consors: The lowest levels of the Technocracy don't require
Awakened mages. Conditioned Sleepers perform many of the simplest tasks.
Obedience is paramount. Resistance is futile." What are these? Vorlons
crossed with the Borg?
>What, are you _nuts_? Sure, that's fine for those of us who have big
>mighty Avatars or lots and lots of willpower with which to influence
>reality, but if we replaced technology with thaumaturgy, the average joe
>on the street is _instantly screwed_ because he can't use it one little
Indeed?
>bit when you compare him to people like Mages. The Technocracy couldn't
Doubtful...look at all of those nifty *static* tricks which won't attract
Paradox. It'll also open the door to other *static* magical practices
which would then allow investigation into, and even a breaching of, the
gauntlet...from there, it all goes to hell...
Oh, and the Traditions get less Paradox and more previously vulgar
effects become Coincidental. Sort of a death blow to the Pogrom.
>care less about thaumaturgy if it empowered sleepers, but the only people
>who thaumaturgy empowers are people who are mages or near-mages anyway,
>and those are _precisely_ the sorts of people the Technocracy opposes.
>And yes, they _are themselves those sorts of people_. Which is why the
>last act of the Technocracy will be to abolish itself.
The problem with your last sentence:
Never, in human history, has any group managed to successfully take power
and once their goals have been achieved, give it up. It is not typical of
human nature to take such altruistic actions...
Even if this was the intent when it was founded, 700 years ago, it's
unlikely to happen. Real world example: The Constitution was intended (by
the authors) to be re-written every twenty years or so, to change and
adapt with the times...indeed, the American populace was expected to
revolt against the government if it turned sour.
Have you seen this? The statis quo wins out. The Technocracy is no
different...hell, the Technocracy *encourages* the attitude which prevails
in the human mind about holding onto power.
>: They aren't
>: even generous with Sons of Ether and Virtual Adept technology; if they
>: can't twist it to fit their own views they'll discredit/destroy it even
>: if it would help mankind.
>Well, gee, let me see, if they can 'twist it to fit their own views', and
>their views are pointed towards helping mankind, then sure, I guess they
>do go around twisting that technology. And why not?
Certainly, they claim to help mankind, but truly, what actions do they
take? Destruction of spirituality (which in the WoD is a real force, and
one which should not be ignored). How does severing humanity from the
spiritual help humanity? Try to reply in an unbiased manner, rather than
using the Technocracy party line.
You're making assertions about the motives and actions of the Technocracy,
but providing nothing to support your views.
>: And they're the ones judging what helps
>: mankind, not mankind itself.
>This is a valid point. But of course the same can be said for _any_ Mage.
>All Mages suffer from hubris, it comes with the territory.
On the contrary, that is simply not true. The Technocracy have
demonstrated a greater degree of Hubris than any other faction within the
Ascension War. They believe that only they can decide what is best for the
masses, and screw what the masses would prefer...give them their couch,
beer, and television and they'll sit fat, dumb and happy and accept every
little tidbit the Technocracy feeds them. Who needs original thought when
you can watch Homeboys from Outer Space?
Ian R Lowe
K Kuhn wrote in article ...
<snip>
>5.2 billion people believe in relativity? I'm not sure 5.2 billion
people
>even know algebra or how to balance a checkbook ;)
Perhaps not the actual mechanics of it, but they believe in the concept,
even if they don't know what it means. after all if the intelligent guy
believes it, then I must too!
>And maybe the Techies aren't actually doing anything to change the
>paradigm. Myabe what the NWO is doing instead is persuading the rest of
>the mages, Techie and Traddie, that all the inventions and scientific
>discoveries the Sleepers come up with are actually due to mages inventing
>them. Given the hubris of the mages, it would be a far easier task to
>make them think they're the greatest, after all. And there's no way the
>Tradition types could stop the changing paradigm either, because this
>brilliant strategy ensures that the Traditions will keep attacking the
>Technocracy, and never figure out that the reason blowing up
Autochthonia,
>etc. doesn't do a thing to stop the Technocracy from instituting their
>goals is because the Technocracy has simply jumped on the bandwagon and
>doesn't have anything to do with it at all.
Now that's a really weird concept. the trouble here, and something that I
had to shy away from in my stuff is if you remove the reality forming
powers of the technocracy, you kinda make the "fantasy" on the front of
role-playing disappear, which isn't much fun. remember the end goal is to
quantify, not destroy the world of darkness.
Ian.
David Johnston
K Kuhn wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.970519...@rigel.oac.uci.edu>,
> Steven True <spt...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Now I can see the traditions views of limiting human imagination and the
> > sheer wonder of the world. But, aren't many of them just afraid of losing
> > power.
> >
> > POWER. That's what its about now, idealogy is a convient cover.
> > If the tech or traditions wanted to help the Sleepers then they would make
> > them relize the power their thoughts and sheer numbers have on the world
> > around them. I.E. relativity only works because 5.2 billion believe it
> > can.
>
> even know algebra or how to balance a checkbook ;)
They believe in atomic power and nuclear weapons, which boils down to
the same thing.
>
> And maybe the Techies aren't actually doing anything to change the
> paradigm. Myabe what the NWO is doing instead is persuading the rest of
> the mages, Techie and Traddie, that all the inventions and scientific
> discoveries the Sleepers come up with are actually due to mages inventing
> them. Given the hubris of the mages, it would be a far easier task to
> make them think they're the greatest, after all. And there's no way the
> Tradition types could stop the changing paradigm either, because this
Your premise assumes that there is no paradigm to change.
Jimmy McKinney
On Thu, 22 May 1997, Ian R Lowe wrote:
> >5.2 billion people believe in relativity? I'm not sure 5.2 billion
> people
> >even know algebra or how to balance a checkbook ;)
>
> even if they don't know what it means. after all if the intelligent guy
> believes it, then I must too!
I seriously doubt even half of those 5.2 billion people are AWARE of
relativity. Consider how many of those 5.2 billion are children, and how
many are uneducated adults, and you might even find as little as 1/3 are
actually aware of it, much less believe in it. I doubt the largest portion
of those that are aware of it even vaguely care. Of those that do, a
goodly portion could easily go in for newer paradigms like quantum
physics.
> Now that's a really weird concept. the trouble here, and something that I
> had to shy away from in my stuff is if you remove the reality forming
> powers of the technocracy, you kinda make the "fantasy" on the front of
> role-playing disappear, which isn't much fun. remember the end goal is to
> quantify, not destroy the world of darkness.
Which amounts to the same thing if you believe that much of the WoD and
Mage in particular is about possibilities. Quantify Reality == Eliminate
Unknown == Eliminate Possibilities == Destroy WoD
Jimmy McKinney, better known as Gregor on IRC - vor...@iglou.com
Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5: http://www.midwinter.com
Ander's Mage Page: http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/mage.html
My Homepage: http://members.iglou.com/vorlon
--This line exists to be nonconformist with 4 line .sig limits--
Jason Corley
Deirdre M. Brooks (xe...@kelly.teleport.com) wrote:
: In <5lvoib$geg$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason
: Corley) writes:
: >control over one's life (beyond the usual social contract stuff of
: >'agreeing', loosely speaking, not to murder people or shout fire in
: >crowded theatres and the like) to _anything_ is unacceptable to the
: >concept of freedom, which, by the way, was _invented_ by the Technocracy.
: Jason Corley, I usually find your opinions well-thought-out and
: reasonable... But this... How can you even imagine the Union (One World,
: One Truth, One Paradigm) does more than give lip-service to the concept of
: freedom?
Because, m'dear, I was baiting people. The NWO, in my opinion, is all
about freedom, but what freedom really _is_ is not at all clear. For
instance, in a NWO-Ascended society, people could believe whatever the
heck they wanted, but they could only be _right_ if they believed certain
things. In a NWO-Ascended society, everyone would be happy not because
happiness was legislated, but because everyone would be fulfilling the
role that they were best suited for. Nobody would be 'rammed into'
anything (to swipe a phrase from an earlier part of the thread) because
for every set of talents there would be a place to use them. No talents
would go undeveloped, and nobody would be expected to do anything they
weren't talented at. There _is_ an underlying assumption here, that
people enjoy performing functions that they are talented at, and, further,
that there is a role for every talent. This is why the NWO is the core of
the Technocracy: their paradigm lies halfway between the 'no-waste',
'no-surplus' and 'no-mistakes' Iteration X paradigm and the 'supply
creates demand creates supply' $yndicate paradigm.
We can debate over whether or not this is freedom, and of course, like all
philosophical debates, it comes down to our definitions. I can come up
with a legitimate definition of freedom that this situation does _not_
fit. But there can be really _no_ debate about whether or not there's any
freedom in a Tradition-run society: there isn't the tiniest little bit.
In a Tradition-run society the average Sleeper doesn't have any _power_ to
choose, and therefore can't be said to be free under _any_ reasonable
definition of freedom.
This is why the only hope for the Trads (philosophically speaking, if they
want to be the villains, hey, go to it) is to stick together: at least
then Sleepers have the option of denying that inscribing the Sacred Circle
and calling on the spirit of the grass to carry the message to your wife
that you will be late getting home for dinner is the way you want to do
things and can instead just zip her a 3d video e-mail message...
: [examples of supposedly terrible things the Technocracy has supposedly
: done or are doing snipped]
This I think is the key to my argument: that I do not think the _goals_ of
the Technocracy as stated by White Wolf correspond in _any way_ to the
actions of the Technocracy as stated by White Wolf. Since the original
subject was about their goals, that's what I wanted to talk about.
All of these examples are of course perfectly awful, but really, how did
_any_ of them advance the real Technocratic agenda: Sleeper empowerment?
In some ways, some of them did, and to the extent that they did, they were
justified under the Technocratic agenda, and only to that extent, and no
further. Frankly, if I were in charge of the $yndicate and It-X came to
me asking me for the money (Quint) to build a cyborg killer robot that
looked like a person with chainguns that popped out of it's arms, etc, I'd
report them to the NWO ASAP and have the whole operation shut down. And
if I were an It-Xer I'd discard that option immediately as being not only
counterproductive but extremely wasteful.
: >What, are you _nuts_? Sure, that's fine for those of us who have big
: >mighty Avatars or lots and lots of willpower with which to influence
: >reality, but if we replaced technology with thaumaturgy, the average joe
: >on the street is _instantly screwed_ because he can't use it one little
: >bit when you compare him to people like Mages. The Technocracy couldn't
: Doubtful...look at all of those nifty *static* tricks which won't attract
: Paradox. It'll also open the door to other *static* magical practices
: which would then allow investigation into, and even a breaching of, the
: gauntlet...from there, it all goes to hell...
: Oh, and the Traditions get less Paradox and more previously vulgar
: effects become Coincidental. Sort of a death blow to the Pogrom.
This is perfectly legit, but I will bet you a dollar on your dime that the
minute the Sleepers choose a static Traditional effect that begins to get
no paradox at all, the Technomancers will (sigh) "twist it to their plans"
by incorporating it into the paradigm. Look at magnetism. If you want a
more modern example, look at chiropractic medicine and acupuncture, both
now legitimate medical treatments with a body of literature, experts and
malpractice insurance.
Yes, this brings a Tradition, or part of one, closer to the Technomancers,
but according to their agenda, they couldn't care less about Mages except
insofar as they pose a threat. If they're _contributing_ to the paradigm,
then you'd have to be crazy to work against them.
: >Which is why the
: >last act of the Technocracy will be to abolish itself.
: The problem with your last sentence:
: Never, in human history, has any group managed to successfully take power
: and once their goals have been achieved, give it up. It is not typical of
: human nature to take such altruistic actions...
Well, I could argue that the object of the Technocracy all along has been
to remove it's own power. For God's sake, the stars used to be fixed on a
dome: they _made up the rest of the universe_. Now they have trouble
keeping rein on Sleeper science (assuming they do, of course.) It looks
to me very much like they are much much much less powerful than they used
to be. Furthermore, I could argue that one of the goals of the
Technocracy is to change human nature for the better.
But since I think you're right and the Technocratic agenda in it's current
form will never succeed anyway, it's a moot point.
: >Well, gee, let me see, if they can 'twist it to fit their own views', and
: >their views are pointed towards helping mankind, then sure, I guess they
: >do go around twisting that technology. And why not?
: Certainly, they claim to help mankind, but truly, what actions do they
: take? Destruction of spirituality (which in the WoD is a real force, and
: one which should not be ignored). How does severing humanity from the
: spiritual help humanity? Try to reply in an unbiased manner, rather than
: using the Technocracy party line.
Now that's cruel! I've been _talking about_ the Technocracy party line
all this time, and about how it has implications that people just don't
seem to be getting.
Take spirituality for instance. In a Technocrat-Ascended world, would
there be no spirituality? Who knows? Who cares? Remember, you can
believe whatever you want, but you can't be -right- just because you want
to be right. The effects of spiritual beliefs certainly are beneficial to
any society. Further, those effects are the same regardless of whether
any actual spirits exist. Finally, the existence of spirits independent
of Sleeper control (SLEEPER control, mind you, not your local voodooienne
or the creepy Ghostbuster up the block) is definitely detrimental to
Sleeper (and Technocracy, admittedly) control of the paradigm.
: You're making assertions about the motives and actions of the Technocracy,
: but providing nothing to support your views.
Tish tosh. What should I provide? Quotes from the White Wolf canon?
When I've said all along that the canon is inadequate?
: On the contrary, that is simply not true. The Technocracy have
: demonstrated a greater degree of Hubris than any other faction within the
: Ascension War. They believe that only they can decide what is best for the
: masses, and screw what the masses would prefer...give them their couch,
: beer, and television and they'll sit fat, dumb and happy and accept every
: little tidbit the Technocracy feeds them. Who needs original thought when
: you can watch Homeboys from Outer Space?
I seriously doubt you really mean this. Are you suggesting that the
Technocracy does not encourage original thought? Hm. Well, maybe this
'information economy' I've been hearing so much about is just a myth. And
maybe the Internet isn't a powerful tool. And maybe the growth of
literacy isn't conducive to original thought. And maybe science doesn't
require you to have original thoughts. And maybe...well, I'm being
facetious now. I'll just assume you were, too.
Anna Troy
cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason Corley) wrote:
>Because, m'dear, I was baiting people. The NWO, in my opinion, is all
>about freedom, but what freedom really _is_ is not at all clear. For
>instance, in a NWO-Ascended society, people could believe whatever the
>heck they wanted, but they could only be _right_ if they believed certain
>things. In a NWO-Ascended society, everyone would be happy not because
>happiness was legislated, but because everyone would be fulfilling the
>role that they were best suited for.
<big snip>
All this kind of reminds me of the motto at that's on the wall at
Uppsala University (Engraved in stone from the mid 19th century I
think)
Translated from Swedish:
"To think freely is Great, but to think rightly is Greater."
Anna T
David Johnston
Jason Corley wrote:
>
> Mike Bruner (mbr...@knox.edu) wrote:
> : Jason Corley wrote:
>
> : > $yndicate
> : > mage who is more important, the consumer or the producer and he'll just
> : > laugh and ask you which there are more of.
>
> : I ain't buying it; MAYBE you could ignore that example (I still think
> : they are choosing of their own free will to worship and if the Celestial
> : Chorister is doing what he should he's letting them decide what to pray
> : for and who to pray to (under the paradigm of the One it doesn't really
> : matter who you pray to for the most part))
>
> Technocracy doesn't want miracles to work because they don't want people's
> lives controlled by some omniscient omnipotent force _even if that force
When did the N.W.O. stop being an omniscient omnipotent force?
j_h...@hotmail.com
In article <5m3a57$ji2$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason Corley) wrote:
>
> Deirdre M. Brooks (xe...@kelly.teleport.com) wrote:
> : Who needs original thought when
> : you can watch Homeboys from Outer Space?
>
> I seriously doubt you really mean this. Are you suggesting that the
> Technocracy does not encourage original thought? Hm. Well, maybe this
> 'information economy' I've been hearing so much about is just a myth. And
> maybe the Internet isn't a powerful tool. And maybe the growth of
> literacy isn't conducive to original thought. And maybe science doesn't
> require you to have original thoughts.
I thought the 'science is bad/ uncreative/ wyrm-tainted' line was one of
the WW canon arguments. Its always been weak at best, and hopelessly
early '90s new-age-trendiness at worst (the standard line from people who
consider themselves artistic and have to damn alternative endeavours
which they don't understand and make them feel inadequate ;) ).
Speaking as a research engineer, I know that isn't true - this is one of
the reasons I much prefer Vampire to Mage or Werewolf or Changeling - it
doesn't hav quite such a painfully silly view of the high moral ground
IMO (which is strange really).
jo It-X in-training (and the first thing we'll do is re-engineer the
sphere of spirit; it is an anachronism)
And no I don't want to be a Son of Ether ;) - they're a sexist bunch of
anachronisms who wouldn't know real science if it bit them on the bum.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Alexander T Greene
In article <337cf...@130.166.1.64>, ejz...@csun.edu says...
>
Y'know, it's a damned fine thing to see discussions of this nature on a RPG topic. With D&D,
they're still in the rut of "How about if I used a +3 broadsword on a half-orc wearing +5 Elven
Chainmail, and there's ice on the floor?"
> Where did the farmers learn to farm the food that keeps you alive?
>Who helps shape the music and art that enhances your life?
Cult of Ecstasy. No question.
>Who tracked down the spirits of the animals that were hunted and asked
>them to sacrifice one life from their herd to feed the band of humans?
Dreamspeakers.
>Who discovered fire to cook the meat?
Women. (Just a speculation, guys and gals!)
>>Now what have the Traditions done for me? Do I get a wand or a Node or a magic potion?
Or a prayer for Divine intercession, or a lucky rabbit's foot charm that miraculously deflects
that otherwise-fatal bullet, or that set of lucky numbers that win you the Lottery, or a
poultice of strange herbs which made all that pain go away, or a hell of an idea for a science
fiction show on TV, or a cracking computer program, or ...
Because of their statically-inclined Avatars, Techno paradigms have always tended toward the
"don't rock the boat" philosophy, until they became the Technocratic Union, of course, and began
spawning monsters and HIT Marks and stuff, Technocrats' aims were all based on the good of the
community. The Artificers (now known as Iteration X) lead the field in prosthetics, and their
goal of giving limbs to Thalidomide sufferers and landmine victims can be nothing but laudable.
The Cabal of Pure Thought strove to bring knowledge to all, not just to the privileged; the
Progenitors sought to improve living conditions, general health and promote longer lifespans,
and so on. Based on their past record, the Sleepers side with the Technos, for their benefits
far outweighed the liabilities (such as dark, Satanic mills and guns).
It's only in the modern era that the dream of a world existing to benefit the Community has been
warped into a world made to keep the Community safe by crushing its will to dream and feel. So
I'd say that the Technocratic Union should be portrayed as misguided, rather than evil.
(And if you think it's the other way around, play the following scenario and watch your
characters' faces ...
The premise is simple. You're an Awakened Verbena Healer, who has mastered Life 3. You know
it'll be years and years before you can attain Life 5, whence you can take your little kid
brother, on whom you dote, and give him the arms he was born without because your Mom took some
drug during her pregnancy.
And then some Iteration X doctor comes up to you in a neutral place while you're out getting
some healing herbs, and offers you the chance to give your beloved brother those arms. No
strings attached. He's not interested in a spy; he knows you're not into any sensitive Verbena
stuff, and he may already know twice what you know about your Tradition. He's doing this out of
medical duty, because he saw your kid brother painting with his feet in his school, and it broke
his heart.
What does your character do then?)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
jatlhbe' yajwI'. yajbe' jatlhwI'.
He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.
email: mi95...@newi.ac.uk Web: http://io.newi.ac.uk/students/mi950012/index.htm
Blake
In article <5m3a57$ji2$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, Jason Corley
(cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:
>
>I seriously doubt you really mean this. Are you suggesting that the
>Technocracy does not encourage original thought? Hm. Well, maybe this
>'information economy' I've been hearing so much about is just a myth. And
>maybe the Internet isn't a powerful tool. And maybe the growth of
>literacy isn't conducive to original thought. And maybe science doesn't
>require you to have original thoughts. And maybe...well, I'm being
>facetious now. I'll just assume you were, too.
>
economy' or the Internet, could be claimed by the Virtual Adepts.
Likewise, science - of the type that encourages original thought, not
conformity - can be claimed as the perview of the Sons of Ether.
Just because they aren't Conventions anymore doesn't mean the
aren't still influencing reality. :)
As to the growth of literacy, I don't think the Technarchs who
invented the printing press were thinking: "This will encourage
widespread literacy and original thought." They were probably
thinking "This will be a good tool in our efforts to promote
conformity" or "Lets throw our allies in the Church a bone by
printing some bibles." The Technocracy doesn't want the sleepers
to be literate so they can read James Joyce, they want literate
sleepers who will obey signs that say "Authorized Personel Only"
and who can fill out forms legibly.
Jason Corley
Anna Troy (ark...@stud.got.kth.se) wrote:
: <big snip>
: All this kind of reminds me of the motto at that's on the wall at
: Uppsala University (Engraved in stone from the mid 19th century I
: think)
: Translated from Swedish:
: "To think freely is Great, but to think rightly is Greater."
Very true. The idea is much more ancient: even Aristotle writes about how
truth and justice are stronger than their opposites.
Jason Corley
David Johnston (rgo...@telusplanet.net) wrote:
: Jason Corley wrote:
: >
: >
: > It doesn't matter to the Technocracy either, that's my point. The
: > Technocracy doesn't want miracles to work because they don't want people's
: > lives controlled by some omniscient omnipotent force _even if that force
: When did the N.W.O. stop being an omniscient omnipotent force?
Aw, come on, they haven't won _yet_. ;-)
Jason Corley
Blake (blak...@technologist.com) wrote:
: Any encouragement of original thought comming out of the 'information
: economy' or the Internet, could be claimed by the Virtual Adepts.
Well, you snipped out my earlier argument that if an idea is classified as
sound, the Technocrats will incorporate it into the paradigm and not care
about who invented the damn thing. Tradition mages and a previous poster
called this "twisting the innovations of the Traditions" and I called it
"the way the cookie crumbles." If the Trads really cared about Sleeper
empowerment, they would be jumping for joy every time one of their ideas
was good enough that the Technocrats would adopt it.
: As to the growth of literacy, I don't think the Technarchs who
: invented the printing press were thinking: "This will encourage
: widespread literacy and original thought." They were probably
: thinking "This will be a good tool in our efforts to promote
: conformity" or "Lets throw our allies in the Church a bone by
: printing some bibles." The Technocracy doesn't want the sleepers
: to be literate so they can read James Joyce, they want literate
: sleepers who will obey signs that say "Authorized Personel Only"
: and who can fill out forms legibly.
Ha! Very funny. But this argument ignores completely the _actual
results_ of the invention of the printing press. Do you think the
Technocracy was ignorant of these results? Do you really think they
didn't forsee the development of the novel, the golden age of literature,
a Shakespeare first folio? Do you seriously believe that anyone who even
gives lip service to the idea of Sleeper control of reality wouldn't put
_all available resources_ into making the printing press successful? And
as for the church, they knee-jerk _opposed_ the use of the press for
secular materials for many years, for no apparent reason. Clearly the
Choristers just being ornery.
Jefgorbach
The way I understand it:
1. The paradigm is defined by the greatest local number of agreeing
thoughts (ie: sleepers).
2. The Sleepers have been taught to acceptable technlogy -- a form of
magik which depends heavily upon the use of mechanical foci.
Thus the Technocracy, whose ideas are based upon technological foci,
currently have the more advantageous position in the Acension War.
Needless to say, the NWO, Syndicate, etc all attempt maintain the Sleepers
current point-of-view to retain this favorable position.
As to whether th Technocracy created this situation or merely took
advantage of the paradigm shift after it occured is rather moot since that
is the situation the characters (and we?) must deal with.
Ok, sure a historical review *might* reveal that had a move been made at
some critcal juncture the Traditions *might* have altered the future (ie
the current), but since reverse Temporal travel is prohibited to std
players, the question remains pointless since the resulting data is most
likely useless. Sleepers tend to ignore what they consider Historical Fact
-- why would they be concerned about a theoretical manuver made centuries
ago by a hidden organization?? How does that impact tomarrow nights poker
game?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JefGo...@aol.com
Jack Rogers
To the question presented in the subject heading, I will give you this
paraphrased quote
"..and the weaver was driven insane as it saw the wyrm destroying its
beautifull web and spun madly as it tryed to out do the wyrm, the wyrm
saw this and destroyed even more of the web, the weaver in her madness
then wove the wyrm into her web driving the wyrm insane in-turn..."
make of that what you will.
--
Jack Rogers /// ///
\ // / /
"the most mercyfull thing \ //// _/ /
about the human mind is \_ //// /
its ability to forget \___/ /
that which it can not / \_ The opinions
understand" /,)-_( \_ \ above in no way
H.P.Lovecraft (/ \\ /\\\\ represent those of
// my Employer
-===========================((==========================
Blake
In article <5m78mi$ml6$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, Jason Corley
(cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:
>Blake (blak...@technologist.com) wrote:
>
>
>: Any encouragement of original thought comming out of the 'information
>: economy' or the Internet, could be claimed by the Virtual Adepts.
>
>Well, you snipped out my earlier argument that if an idea is classified as
>sound, the Technocrats will incorporate it into the paradigm and not care
>about who invented the damn thing. Tradition mages and a previous poster
>called this "twisting the innovations of the Traditions" and I called it
>"the way the cookie crumbles." If the Trads really cared about Sleeper
>empowerment, they would be jumping for joy every time one of their ideas
>was good enough that the Technocrats would adopt it.
I don't think the Technarchs actually have that much control over
consensual reality. Ultimately, it is the Sleepers who deteremine
what is and is not 'accepted.' The Time Table never called for
an Internet like we have today, it is the result of the V-dept's
messing with reality, and the Sleepers liking - or at least,
accepting
the result. The Technocracy is mainly doing damage control on the
Net.
>
>: As to the growth of literacy, I don't think the Technarchs who
>: invented the printing press were thinking: "This will encourage
>: widespread literacy and original thought." They were probably
>: thinking "This will be a good tool in our efforts to promote
>: conformity" or "Lets throw our allies in the Church a bone by
>: printing some bibles." The Technocracy doesn't want the sleepers
>: to be literate so they can read James Joyce, they want literate
>: sleepers who will obey signs that say "Authorized Personel Only"
>: and who can fill out forms legibly.
>
>
>Ha! Very funny. But this argument ignores completely the _actual
>results_ of the invention of the printing press. Do you think the
>Technocracy was ignorant of these results? Do you really think they
>didn't forsee the development of the novel, the golden age of literature,
>a Shakespeare first folio? Do you seriously believe that anyone who even
Yes, I do. That's the kind of mages they are. They aren't as
creative and free thinking as others (even some sleepers) are.
And the *don't* control the acutal results of an invention. They
put it out there if they think it's 'safe' and try to control
the uses it's put to, but ultimately any technology can get away
from them. That's exactly what happened with printing and literacy.
>gives lip service to the idea of Sleeper control of reality wouldn't put
>_all available resources_ into making the printing press successful? And
>as for the church, they knee-jerk _opposed_ the use of the press for
>secular materials for many years, for no apparent reason. Clearly the
>Choristers just being ornery.
I also think that, at that time, the Choristers and the Technocracy
were working together. In fact, you could think of the CC as the
first Convention to split from the Technocracy! :) Heck, if you
think about it, they didn't nescisarily give up on the Technos
until Darwinism.
Anders Sandberg
On Tue, 27 May 1997, Jack Rogers wrote:
> To the question presented in the subject heading, I will give you this
> paraphrased quote
>
> "..and the weaver was driven insane as it saw the wyrm destroying its
> beautifull web and spun madly as it tryed to out do the wyrm, the wyrm
> saw this and destroyed even more of the web, the weaver in her madness
> then wove the wyrm into her web driving the wyrm insane in-turn..."
Fortunately the enlightened Technocracy is taking steps to ameliorate
this situation by removing all need for anthropomophic entities to
represent physical forces. Soon there will be (and have ever been) no
Weaver, Wyld or Wyrm, just complexity theory, statistics and
thermodynamics, all governed by deterministic laws. There is no need
for supernatural explanations, since the world will be shown to be
strictly consistent and knowable. Closure will be achieved and
questions of ethics can be settled through game theory.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg One World, One Truth, One Reality!
nv91...@nwo.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
Jason Corley
Blake (blak...@technologist.com) wrote:
: >Ha! Very funny. But this argument ignores completely the _actual
: >results_ of the invention of the printing press. Do you think the
: >Technocracy was ignorant of these results? Do you really think they
: >didn't forsee the development of the novel, the golden age of literature,
: >a Shakespeare first folio? Do you seriously believe that anyone who even
: Yes, I do. That's the kind of mages they are.
Well, if you think that the Technocracy is stupid, then I guess there's
nothing I can say that will convince you that they aren't.
David Johnston
Jack Rogers wrote:
>
> To the question presented in the subject heading, I will give you this
> paraphrased quote
>
> "..and the weaver was driven insane as it saw the wyrm destroying its
> beautifull web and spun madly as it tryed to out do the wyrm, the wyrm
> saw this and destroyed even more of the web, the weaver in her madness
> then wove the wyrm into her web driving the wyrm insane in-turn..."
>
Propaganda by Wyld lovers.
SpiralMan
Anders Sandberg wrote in article ...
>> "..and the weaver was driven insane as it saw the wyrm destroying its
>> beautifull web and spun madly as it tryed to out do the wyrm, the wyrm
>> saw this and destroyed even more of the web, the weaver in her madness
>> then wove the wyrm into her web driving the wyrm insane in-turn..."
>
>Fortunately the enlightened Technocracy is taking steps to ameliorate
>this situation by removing all need for anthropomophic entities to
>represent physical forces. Soon there will be (and have ever been) no
>Weaver, Wyld or Wyrm, just complexity theory, statistics and
>thermodynamics, all governed by deterministic laws. There is no need
>for supernatural explanations, since the world will be shown to be
>strictly consistent and knowable. Closure will be achieved and
>questions of ethics can be settled through game theory.
I love this guy...!!!! :)
--
_ SpiralMan
Deirdre M. Brooks
References: <5mhpul$sme$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
In <5mhpul$sme$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu (Jason
Corley) writes:
>Blake (blak...@technologist.com) wrote:
>: Yes, I do. That's the kind of mages they are.
>Well, if you think that the Technocracy is stupid, then I guess there's
>nothing I can say that will convince you that they aren't.
Which is too bad... I love the idea of the intelligent Technocrat...I
mean, they had to get their Ph.Ds. somehow. :-)
Jo Hart
Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote in article
<5mjg0m$f9p$1...@kelly.teleport.com>...
You don't have to be THAT intelligent to get a PhD (she says, hoping that
she won't have to do any /more/ corrections to her thesis this time round
;-) )
jo
(soon to be Dr?)
Luke Morey
OK, I can't resist getting in my 2 cents worth...
The Technocracy invented the printing press with a reason, and it was good;
to permit information to freely flow to the masses, once they gained
literacy. That was also part of the pogrom. The whole key to the WOD slant
is that the Cabal of Pure Thought, later called the NWO, intended to
control the printing press in order to control what the sleepers actually
get to read. I'd like to point out that the NWO abandoned the Catholic
Church in the WOD setting when they discovered that Religion couldn't be
brought under one clearly defined, rigid set of controls. The Technocracy
wants Humanity to ascend just as much as the Trads do...the difference
(with the exception of the O of H) is that the Technocracy wants to control
the rate and limits to that ascension, and the Trads want everyone to
ascend based on individual merit. Even the O of H preaches individual
merit, just with "overseers".
Blake <blak...@technologist.com> wrote in article
<338b2...@news.billyboard.com>...
JamesE1
Ian Lowe" <ian....@btinternet.com> sez
>>Celestial Chorus
>The benefit that the celestial chorus brings to sleepers is the once
only,
>offer of a lifetime, choice between turning to our lord (fill in the
>blank), or burning to death on this here bonfire with six inches of steel
>rammed up your ass.
That sounds more like your personal opinion than what the Celestial Chorus
truly is about. Sure, there are a few radicals and a few radical periods
within the Chorus' history, but I think this statement falls into the
category of "gross generalization".
It would be much akin to saying that all atheists shoot priests, simply
because it happened in the Communist regime in the Soviet Union's history.
James Estes
===================================
james estes, looking eagle
storyteller, writer & game designer
washington, d.c.
Deirdre M. Brooks
References: <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
In <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Keith Russell <ds...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> writes:
>> >> Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
>> >> layer?
>Nuclear warheads *don't* work. Ever seen a limited tactial exchange
>take place? I doubt that you'll ever see one given that the wraiths
There are fifty years of nuclear tests in the Pacific to prove that
statement wrong. Of *course* exchanges never occurred - most governments
are more intelligent than that.
>like to keep station around military units and such, try and stop
>another storm down there. Why do you think boot-camp is so emotionally
Do they? I'm not so sure about that...also consider the high shroud in
such areas as missile silos.
>violent? Got to have some pathos around. :) Even given that the
What does Fort Leonard Woode have to do with nuclear silos?
>wraiths weren't in the way nuclear weapons are very likely to be
>*opposed* magick, hell even if they aren't "boosted" with spheres
>they're still likely to be opposed magickally.
If that's the case, then why were Hiroshima and Nagasaki cinders at the
end of WWII.
>> Nuclear weapons work because the Technocracy wants them to. Why they
>> want them, I'm not sure: It could be that the Cold War and Nuclear
No... Nuclear weapons work because they were made a part of the consensus.
If things only worked because the Technos wanted them to, then the
Progenitors would have no difficulties with their Damage Control beasties,
and HIT Marks could pop off with their chainguns with impunity.
>> Proliferation were just steps in a technarch plan to eventually
>> produce a unified World Government; or it could be that they eventually plan
>> to use them on the Traditions, or other threats; maybe they're going
>> to use them to stop and asteroid or commet from striking the earth
>> (actually a monsterous Nephandic attack).
Or maybe proliferation occurred because two major world powers played a
game of brinkmanship for over four decades. Why blame everything on the
supernaturals?
>Cf: CCCP/US antagonism as faction wars between Syndicate(Marxist) and
>Syndicate(Capitalist) factions, similarly between NWO(Russian
>Nationalist) and NWO(US Nationalist) forces.
I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of mortals...although
I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
>> CFC's and other polutants, were probably meant to be benign or were
>> unexpected paradox side effects that became mired in consensual
>> reality.
><nods>
Probably a fairly good explanation. Now why has the Technocracy not
offered an alternative fuel source into the paradigm which isn't harmful
to the atmosphere? I mean, other than gasoline?
>> In either case they have been picked up by the nephandi (the Garou
>> Wyrm) and twisted towards evil ends. Why do you think
>> environmentalism gets so much support?
Ah, the easy out. Blame anything that goes wrong on the Nephandi. After
all, it's not like one would pop up to contradict you. Of course, the
bastards would probably accept the credit for it anyway.
>Because its cheaper to chrome something than to structurally re-enforce
>it. Environmentalism, if it gets any sponsorship from the Technocracy,
>is funded largely by ItX who are trying to minimalise the importance of
>Heavy Industry in a post-ascention paradigm, and by Progenitors who have
>some kind of nostalgia for an agricultural economy.
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
John H
xe...@kelly.teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks) spit out some electrons
that said:
<SNIP>
>I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of mortals...although
>I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
>couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
I thought it was so that the paranoia would cause everyone to build
bomb shelters, then latter abandon them, and have lots of places for
the Nosferatu to be underground and safe.
John -
Estne volumen in toga, an
solum tibi libet me videre
Jason Corley
John H (jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu) wrote:
: I thought it was so that the paranoia would cause everyone to build
: bomb shelters, then latter abandon them, and have lots of places for
: the Nosferatu to be underground and safe.
This explanation is one of those that makes so much sense that it can't
possibly be true. Someone at White Wolf was eating their Wheaties the day
they wrote that one down.
Stunt Borg
On 2 Jun 1997, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
> In <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Keith Russell
> <ds...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> writes:
>
( stuff about nuclear exchanges not happening )
>
> >I doubt that you'll ever see one given that the wraiths
> >like to keep station around military units and such, try and stop
> >another storm down there. Why do you think boot-camp is so
> >emotionally
>
> Do they? I'm not so sure about that...also consider the high shroud
> in such areas as missile silos.
The Hierarchy book made it relatively clear that the wraiths of the
Hierarchy have started 'acting in the spirit' of Charon's Code to
counter the acts of Spectres in the waking world, to the point that the
Hierarchy tries to act to forstall cataclysms. If this means possessing
people away from base and skinriding them all the way to the silo, so
be it (although skinriding the people with 'the Button' is likely to be
easier and more productive).
I'm sure there are enough war-veteran wraiths around who can get Pathos
from a Passion of 'prevent atrocity (Love)' to make this work from the
Hierarchy's point of view, as well as provide these war veterans with
duties that reward them and strengthen their loyalty to the Hierarchy.
<uber-snip, pretty much agreeing with Deidre>
> >Cf: CCCP/US antagonism as faction wars between Syndicate(Marxist)
> >and Syndicate(Capitalist) factions, similarly between NWO(Russian
> >Nationalist) and NWO(US Nationalist) forces.
>
> I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of
> mortals...although I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs
> to the USSR so the US couldn't dominate the world via nuclear
> blackmail.
The given material in Vampire (specifically CB:Brujah and CB:Ventrue
and CB:Lasombra) strongly points to the Brujah as being the factors
behind the success of non-Oriental Communist states (as opposed to the
communist philosophy, which did great even in Eastern Kindred lands).
The Brujah are pinned by themselves (and by the Ventrue who lost! ... a
rare case of corroboration by the losers) as overthrowing the
Ventrue-controlled czars in first one revolution, then the second
Bolshevik one. The Lasombra book mentions extreme ire to losing Cuba to
Brujah-backed Castro, and plans at regaining the isle.
I find it easier to attribute nations _rivalling_ each other as the
work of vampires, and nations _unifying_ as the work of the
Technocracy. Note that the issues of union are often completely
different from the sources of friction: territory concerns and
resources and ethnic feuds and political power webs drive war and
tension (and are all standard vampire concerns). On the other hand,
abstract issues like 'European monetary union' (Syndicate, anyone?) and
'arms control treaties' (NWO?) and 'research on climate change' (ItX
Statisticians?) bring nations together.
> >> CFC's and other polutants, were probably meant to be benign or
> >>were unexpected paradox side effects that became mired in
> >>consensual reality.
> ><nods>
>
> Probably a fairly good explanation. Now why has the Technocracy not
> offered an alternative fuel source into the paradigm which isn't
> harmful to the atmosphere? I mean, other than gasoline?
In terms of what's theoretically available:
1. Hydroelectric
2. Wind
3. Geothermal
4. Natural Gas/Hydrogen
5. Solar
6. 'Utopian' (SoE stuff - cold fusion and so on)
7. Fission
8. Fusion
9. Antimatter
(all these examples are real world events, with 'Technocracy influence'
tacked on for WoD crossover)
1. Hydroelectric - the Technocracy DOES support this in abundance.
There's a drawback - talk to the poor mummies trapped in their crypts
at the bottom of Lake Aswan. Plans to build MASSIVE dams of incredible
power are underway in China and Uruguay (the Uruguay dam will power the
entire nation, and it will export the rest to Brazil and Argentina).
2. Wind - ItX built the first windmills long ago as the Articifers. The
modern versions are probably Sleeper upgrades of the technology.
Problem: real world physics - only near-coastal countries have enough
consistent wind to provide a noticable percentage of power needs.
Denmark and Iceland do ok. Elsewhere, it's a piddling fraction of
demand.
3. Geothermal - used avidly, but rare. The problem is one of access: it
takes years of exploration to find worthwhile vents sometimes, and
millions of dollars are lost if nothing comes up. The Voids are also
MUCH too busy fighting Umbraspawn to help the Syndicate out much as it
scouts for new resources.
Note: Iceland is a nation powered INCREDIBLY much by wind, hydro, and
geothermal power. It is in many ways a Technocratic utopia (of a bare
million people).
4. Natural Gas/Hydrogen - methane is VERY clean-burning, and growing in
use. The problem is one of the Syndicate: coal and oil are cheaper
under the current market in many cases. It has vast growth potential.
Hydrogen is, ultimately, not a FUEL to be gathered, but a way to store
energy (like batteries). Hydrogen has to be _made_ by electrolysis of
water, which consumes more energy than the hydrogen provides. The
advantage of hydrogen is that it stores a lot of energy very compactly,
and when it burns the only product is water vapor. Fuel cells using it
are very efficient, but also ruinuously expensive (Syndicate again).
5. Solar - currently, an issue of a lack of effeciency to make it
profitable, a lack of ongoing investment, and a glut of patents held by
companies who sit on the technology. WoD: Syndicate is holding this one
up to milk more profitable cows first.
6. 'Utopian' SoE stuff. Cold fusion and the like. The problem here is
that the Sons have a damnable way of making their 'dream science' not
even vaguely conform to the paradigm at all. It is very likely that
many of these pie-in-the-sky 'Mr. Fusion' ideas simply CAN'T work
outside of an Etherite Sanctum. _Hundreds_ of scientists tried to
replicate cold fusion by Pons, which is far more scientists than ItX
has to spare. Only _one_ of these groups showed even minimal results,
and those turned out to be artifactual.
The difficulty in WoD is that the Sons very rarely link their work to
the consensual reality paradigm at all levels. ItX often doesn't even
_need_ to refute it, because it falls apart under normal testing. The
Sons might make one of these theories work if they were less utopian
and more thoroughly researched, such that small business labs could
replicate it (there are thousands of power-generation research labs
worldwide, scattered across all nations and hundreds of companies - the
Sons _CAN_ appeal to the profit motive if they make something simple
that actually holds up in Technocrat reality, and the Syndicate would
likely jump on the bandwagon).
Then again, maybe the Technocracy would repress it for spite
(introducing it later, to fit the Time Table).
7. Fission - other than some icky bars that need to be sealed in glass
and concrete for 40,000 years, no pollution at all. Far fewer people
die or get injured per Watt of nuclear power than get into coal-truck
accidents or oil refinery mishaps. Unfortunately, anything but the most
CAREFULLY regulated nuclear power is Wyrm-tainted in the WoD, and the
Garou and Dreamspeakers and Gangrel and Verbena have made this so
stigmatized that the Syndicate simply can't profit much from it. So it
languishes for the most part.
8. Fusion - being worked on avidly. Fusion works (H-Bombs are
uncontrolled Hydrogen fusion set off by a fission bomb). Controlled
fusion even works in a reactor, but thus far requires more energy to
maintain the field and the heat than the fusion gives back. Current
research is supported by national governments needing energy badly
(Japan is in the forefront). At the current rate of progress, 'break
even' of more power gained than expended is expected in about 20 years,
with actual power plants possible in 10 to 20 years afterward. Drawback
is that fusion plants will HAVE to be expensive and huge. They'll
provide a ton of power, but they'll be one or two to a nation type
things, and cost hundreds of millions.
WoD: ItX's baby, pushing physics to the limit. Used in conjunction with
the Voids, who want static fusion drives to take men into the solar
system. The Syndicate is _daunted_ by the costs, but also in ecstasy
over the projected profits, as _all_ fusion plants will be centrally
run things (if this comes to fruition, the entire Syndicate will orgasm
in unison).
Fusion uses hydrogen (made by electrolysis) to work, fusing things to
make helium. It works best with heavy isotopes of hydrogen, one of
which is pretty radioactive, but shortlived (12 year half-life). If
that isotope can be avoided, fusion will be incredibly cheap, as
infinite as ocean water, pollution free, and damn safe. If the reactor
goes, the reaction will immediately shut off as the hydrogen/helium
plasma slags the magnetic field and ruins the entire reactor. This
would kill everyone in the building (likely way underground), but
wouldn't have any meltdown or nasty side effects (other than cutting
off the whole nation's power).
The reason this is so delayed is probably Paradox and safety concerns.
Paradox would likely manifest as reactors slagging themselves, a
proposition the Syndicate is NOT willing to entertain. Nor is it going
to expose itself to Tradition mage sabotage. So until the Statisticians
and Time-Motion Managers can prove the thing is Paradox free, the
Syndicate is keeping it in testing (also, perhaps, they want to finish
sucking the oil fields dry before offering cheap power).
9. Antimatter - it exists. In billions and trillionths of a gram. It
costs millions of times the energy to make than it actually releases.
There is no known natural source nearby to be mined. Like Hydrogen,
antimatter is ultimately not a Fuel, but a way to store energy
effeciently. The energy must first come from elsewhere. Given current
rates of progress, microgram quantities may be manufactured in 80 to
100 years, creating enough antimatter to use in unmanned probes or for
certain precise medical treatments and metallurgical scans/repairs.
WoD: The Syndicate is tired of funneling money into this ItX and Void
Engineer black hole with no return. Some avant-garde Progenitors like
the idea of using picogram quantities of antimatter to cure lesions,
but the long projected delay on affordable 'mass' production is far
away. The Syndicate acts accordingly.
> >> In either case they have been picked up by the nephandi (the Garou
> >> Wyrm) and twisted towards evil ends. Why do you think
> >> environmentalism gets so much support?
>
> Ah, the easy out. Blame anything that goes wrong on the Nephandi.
Nah. Blame the Changelings. They're the REAL problem ;)
> After all, it's not like one would pop up to contradict you. Of
> course, the bastards would probably accept the credit for it anyway.
Egotists, all.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
probably reads too much Scientific American and Popular Science
for his own good
Christopher Beattie
John H wrote:
>
> xe...@kelly.teleport.com (Deirdre M. Brooks) spit out some electrons
> that said:
> <SNIP>
> >I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
> >couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
>
> bomb shelters, then latter abandon them, and have lots of places for
> the Nosferatu to be underground and safe.
turtle. And the song rights too. <G>
Or was it the anarch who once said, "Let that antidiluvan come,
I bet even his fortitude won't stand a 100 meagton bomb at zero
range."
--
| _______ |Christopher Beattie | 801 Eisenhower Dr|
| /__ __\ Peace |Tantalus Inc. | Key West, FL 33040|
| / \ and |Development Div. |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| /___\ Good |chr...@Tansoft.com | Fax: (305) 292-7835|
| |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp> |
Dave Connors
John H showed us the 1's and 0's:
>
> I thought it was so that the paranoia would cause everyone to build
> bomb shelters, then latter abandon them, and have lots of places for
> the Nosferatu to be underground and safe.
Yeah, that's it. :} Of course, not just the Nossie's but a few of my
good Sluagh friends are chillin' too. :} I thank you, Sidhe thanks you,
my Sluagh thanks you. :}
> John -
> Estne volumen in toga, an
> solum tibi libet me videre
*grin*
Ender
Pooka, Schollar, Poet, Troubador, Cancer, Geek.
"There is no such thing as coincidence, only coincidental magick."
------------------
"There are -no- such thing as Pooka, I'm a...uh, a werewolf, yeah!"
------------------
"Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur"
(Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound)
Carlos A. Andrade
The book rocks, we all love it (Creamy Jade gives me shivers still), but
my group and I
have a question. The pack 25:17, were did it get its name from?
We were thinking book of psalms but since we dont have a bible handy we
thought I would just
ask the net world...
thank you
--
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2
blablablablabla, if you really want it I can give it to you, like any
one really wants to have safe email
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
****************************************************************
Carlos A. Andrade http://mail.utep.edu/~candrade/
(cand...@mail.utep.edu)
****************************************************************
The Baron Samedi
>The book rocks, we all love it (Creamy Jade gives me shivers still), but
>my group and I
>have a question. The pack 25:17, were did it get its name from?
>We were thinking book of psalms but since we dont have a bible handy we
>thought I would just
>ask the net world...
>thank you
Ezekil 25:17, a la Pulp Fiction
Blessed is he....
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <Pine.A41.3.96.970602...@aruba.u.arizona.edu> Stunt
Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>On 2 Jun 1997, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>The Hierarchy book made it relatively clear that the wraiths of the
>Hierarchy have started 'acting in the spirit' of Charon's Code to
>counter the acts of Spectres in the waking world, to the point that the
>Hierarchy tries to act to forstall cataclysms. If this means possessing
>people away from base and skinriding them all the way to the silo, so
>be it (although skinriding the people with 'the Button' is likely to be
>easier and more productive).
This, however, has nothing to do with whether the Technocracy has made it
possible to use nuclear weapons. The testing has borne out the fact that
the weapons *will* work.
>The given material in Vampire (specifically CB:Brujah and CB:Ventrue
>and CB:Lasombra) strongly points to the Brujah as being the factors
>behind the success of non-Oriental Communist states (as opposed to the
>communist philosophy, which did great even in Eastern Kindred lands).
It did? Well, I suppose on the surface it looks good, but I'm not sure
it works well for the populace.
>I find it easier to attribute nations _rivalling_ each other as the
>work of vampires, and nations _unifying_ as the work of the
>Technocracy. Note that the issues of union are often completely
Of course, "One Truth, One World, One Reality." They'd prefer the nations
of earth to get along...all the better to assimilate, them, my dear.
>different from the sources of friction: territory concerns and
>resources and ethnic feuds and political power webs drive war and
>tension (and are all standard vampire concerns). On the other hand,
>abstract issues like 'European monetary union' (Syndicate, anyone?) and
>'arms control treaties' (NWO?) and 'research on climate change' (ItX
>Statisticians?) bring nations together.
True...and gives the Union more ways to exert control over the respective
societies.
>> Probably a fairly good explanation. Now why has the Technocracy not
>> offered an alternative fuel source into the paradigm which isn't
>> harmful to the atmosphere? I mean, other than gasoline?
>In terms of what's theoretically available:
> 1. Hydroelectric
> 2. Wind
> 3. Geothermal
> 4. Natural Gas/Hydrogen
> 5. Solar
> 6. 'Utopian' (SoE stuff - cold fusion and so on)
> 7. Fission
> 8. Fusion
> 9. Antimatter
Yes, I know these exist...why do we still have millions of automobiles
expelling far too much carbon monoxide into the atmosphere? The oil
companies are certainly not all for an alternative, and seem to spend
money to prevent the use of such.
Then, of course, there is the tobacco lobby. Biased research papers
offered as proof that smoking cigarettes is not hazardous...of course a
point could be made that the Progenitors are trying to stop this, the
Syndicate seems to enjoy the great cash cow of cigarettes.
>The difficulty in WoD is that the Sons very rarely link their work to
>the consensual reality paradigm at all levels. ItX often doesn't even
This is a problem...far too many Sons are too impatient to take the time
necessary to give their theories a solid grounding within the
consensus...like, introducing it a bit at a time rather than all at once.
In WoD-terms, this is where Pons and Fleischman made their mistake.
>_need_ to refute it, because it falls apart under normal testing. The
>Sons might make one of these theories work if they were less utopian
>and more thoroughly researched, such that small business labs could
>replicate it (there are thousands of power-generation research labs
>worldwide, scattered across all nations and hundreds of companies - the
>Sons _CAN_ appeal to the profit motive if they make something simple
>that actually holds up in Technocrat reality, and the Syndicate would
>likely jump on the bandwagon).
Probably true...but the Artificers and the Progenitors would probably
fight it every step of the way.
>Then again, maybe the Technocracy would repress it for spite
>(introducing it later, to fit the Time Table).
Like so...
>7. Fission - other than some icky bars that need to be sealed in glass
>and concrete for 40,000 years, no pollution at all. Far fewer people
A minor setback... Odds are that we'll find a way to deal with these more
efficiently within the next century.
>die or get injured per Watt of nuclear power than get into coal-truck
>accidents or oil refinery mishaps. Unfortunately, anything but the most
>CAREFULLY regulated nuclear power is Wyrm-tainted in the WoD, and the
>Garou and Dreamspeakers and Gangrel and Verbena have made this so
>stigmatized that the Syndicate simply can't profit much from it. So it
>languishes for the most part.
I don't think that nuclear power itself is wyrm...after all, the radiation
elementals are truly bizarre. Rather, I think it's the *results* of said
radiation which the Wyrm-things find "tasty." It also probably makes it
easier to make fomori and other odd things.
>8. Fusion - being worked on avidly. Fusion works (H-Bombs are
>uncontrolled Hydrogen fusion set off by a fission bomb). Controlled
>fusion even works in a reactor, but thus far requires more energy to
>maintain the field and the heat than the fusion gives back. Current
>research is supported by national governments needing energy badly
>(Japan is in the forefront). At the current rate of progress, 'break
>even' of more power gained than expended is expected in about 20 years,
>with actual power plants possible in 10 to 20 years afterward. Drawback
>is that fusion plants will HAVE to be expensive and huge. They'll
>provide a ton of power, but they'll be one or two to a nation type
>things, and cost hundreds of millions.
Is this an accurate timetable for introduction?
>WoD: ItX's baby, pushing physics to the limit. Used in conjunction with
>the Voids, who want static fusion drives to take men into the solar
>system. The Syndicate is _daunted_ by the costs, but also in ecstasy
>over the projected profits, as _all_ fusion plants will be centrally
>run things (if this comes to fruition, the entire Syndicate will orgasm
>in unison).
Quite probably... The amount of power possible would skyrocket (in
theory).
>WoD: The Syndicate is tired of funneling money into this ItX and Void
>Engineer black hole with no return. Some avant-garde Progenitors like
>the idea of using picogram quantities of antimatter to cure lesions,
>but the long projected delay on affordable 'mass' production is far
>away. The Syndicate acts accordingly.
I like the idea of developing other, efficient energy sources first, then
working on producing larger amounts of anti-matter from there.
>> Ah, the easy out. Blame anything that goes wrong on the Nephandi.
>Nah. Blame the Changelings. They're the REAL problem ;)
Yeah, what do they contribute? Nothing!
>> After all, it's not like one would pop up to contradict you. Of
>> course, the bastards would probably accept the credit for it anyway.
>Egotists, all.
They are...that's how they get into this sort of thing.
>Paul Lowe Hlavacek
> probably reads too much Scientific American and Popular Science
> for his own good
That's okay, I read it as well.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Paul ('Stunt Borg') wrote:
> The given material in Vampire (specifically CB:Brujah and CB:Ventrue
> and CB:Lasombra) strongly points to the Brujah as being the factors
> behind the success of non-Oriental Communist states (as opposed to the
> communist philosophy, which did great even in Eastern Kindred lands).
I was under the impression, more as a general feel from reading than any
specific reference, that the Soviet Union was, in many ways, a larger-
scaled Brujah utopian experiment -- a continental Carthage, if you like.
Like many of their previous experiments, it fell apart, for reasons the
book doesn't get into (aside from shadowy Baba Yaga references).
This idea ties in nicely with the notion that the modern violent-
frustrated-iconoclast Brujah archetype is becoming increasingly dominant
-- too many of their sociopolitical reforms have failed.
-- S. Skoog
K Kuhn
In article <5n1ubq$mel$1...@kelly.teleport.com>, xe...@kelly.teleport.com
(Deirdre M. Brooks) wrote:
<snip>
>
> Yes, I know these exist...why do we still have millions of automobiles
> expelling far too much carbon monoxide into the atmosphere? The oil
> companies are certainly not all for an alternative, and seem to spend
> money to prevent the use of such.
>
Quick comment - car engines have definitely improved at producing CO2
instead of CO. And IIRC, it's something of a tradeoff with NOx - NOx
formation is pretty much temperature dependent, so low-NOx burners (such
as in boilers) produce more CO.
The interesting point, IMO, is that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas -
so even if you make car engines that *don't* emit any carbon monoxide, you
still haven't reached the promised land. Of course, cows emit methane,
another greenhouse gas, so returning to ox-drawn carts instead of cars
might not be a good solution either...<g>.
<snip>
Steven A White
In article <5mu4no$a49$1...@kelly.teleport.com>,
Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote:
>References: <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
>>> >> layer?
>>Nuclear warheads *don't* work. Ever seen a limited tactial exchange
>>take place? I doubt that you'll ever see one given that the wraiths
>
>There are fifty years of nuclear tests in the Pacific to prove that
>statement wrong. Of *course* exchanges never occurred - most governments
>are more intelligent than that.
My take on the concensus.
Everything is magic. The fundamental nature of existance before things
started playing was a base sphere -10 realm. No dimensions, time, entropy
forces, matter, spirit, etc. Calling base world sphere level 0 is a
mistake we fools make. We are really at +10. Right now.
So correspondance is like
Really What we fools think
0 Space? We can't even conceive or express the previous sentence.
1 Idea of space. Don't have any yet though.
2-6 several spacial dimentions
(here isn't there)
7 perception of own location (Hey, there is here and there)
8 being able to percieve at a distance
(light sound, much connected to forces for these)
(I can see there... Man, how funky)
9 being able to move
(Look, I can make there here. Cool!)
10 Current reality. You can walk, drive fly, swim, etc, 0
(I'm also likely wrong about parts, but..... I also don't know the real
number of levels either)
Things slowly got more complicated.
Magic is based on going over current base reality sphere levels.
In a time in the past, walking used to be magic (equivalent of
correspondance +3) Life used to be paradoxical. Heck, even
matter was paradoxical during the time when only forces where
really active (And you though the big bang was a joke.) Heck,
even forces came after time correspondence and spirit. (Very
low level spirit, just enough to make realms and rough elementals.)
Also, there are many different versions of things. (For example, you
could have the hermetic world, where you place three herbs, a gold coin,
and a bowl of water in order to consensually make a phone call (Assuming
hermetics won, and two, opened up for everyone. :) So you have a pattern
that determines what fits. High tech in current world, agrirural in
past, when the Hermitics take over it with be a hermetic realm. So
if you follow reality's pattern you can do what is allowed. And maybe
even expand it. But if you want something else, you have to push harder.
And if you want to force it, you may need to be a mage.
So cars are a base level taslismen generatable by a damn complex matter
rote. But it's an arete 0 rote. So you can make one by hand, and you can
make many by sleepers in a factory. (Planes are a bit harder, need a
more difficult ritual :) But a sleeper can extend a car, can work on it
so to improve it. A bit of performance here, a bit of that there. Sure
mages help, but....
Oil is tass, processed oil can be used by by a car to generate it's
magical effect. We on the other hand, use food for life and so for
motion (walking, which is a correspondance -3 (from current base, other
realms may be different) effect)
>>> Nuclear weapons work because the Technocracy wants them to. Why they
>>> want them, I'm not sure: It could be that the Cold War and Nuclear
>
>No... Nuclear weapons work because they were made a part of the consensus.
>If things only worked because the Technos wanted them to, then the
>Progenitors would have no difficulties with their Damage Control beasties,
>and HIT Marks could pop off with their chainguns with impunity.
The first couple nukes were gastly complicated talismans with god knows
how much tass inside them (thousands? Consider how much uranium ore must
be processed to extract it all. Of course, It's extracted in a veryveryvery
bound form that is mostly limited to low or high level forces output (heat :))
The later ones still needed mages to help, but they were slowly becoming
coincidental. Uranium processing plants could start doing without mages,
then assembly.... But still, it's a horrible complicated ritual, requiring
thousant of accolites. (billions and billions of dollars of manufacturing,
thousands of workers and scientists).
And now? You get the parts (still, need nasty rituals for those, but
getting much simpler) and any university science student can make
a nuke in his basement.
And that's my view point on why trad mages don't make nukes out of boredom.
To make the raw parts, they have to get a thousand succeses, or wind up
spending a thousand quint to build the toy. Any half decent SoE
can play with atomic forces, it's just that most of the time they make
pretty pictures in cloud chambers. :) (And well, prevent children and
get incorporated into spiffy ray guns, but that's another matter. No
install city destruction. ))
That and it's easier to buy one. If you don't mind running into the
syndicate mafia. :)
>>> CFC's and other polutants, were probably meant to be benign or were
>>> unexpected paradox side effects that became mired in consensual
>>> reality.
>><nods>
>
>Probably a fairly good explanation. Now why has the Technocracy not
>offered an alternative fuel source into the paradigm which isn't harmful
>to the atmosphere? I mean, other than gasoline?
So, why do cars need oil? Tanstaafl Tanstaafl Tanstaafl. There aint no
such thing as a free lunch. Cars need fuel, bound tass, and you can't
avoid this. With a higher level paradigm though, you can shift it so
that it's cheaper, faster, cleaner, but you can't force things though.
The we have the scum we can ignore who want them bad. But even so,
tanstaafl is primary.
Mages can get by. They grab more then their share and well, really
others don't notice. But try giving transporation to millions and
you find your supposedly environmentally safe flying carpet causes
increased birth defects within several hundred meters of their
flight path.
>>Because its cheaper to chrome something than to structurally re-enforce
>>it. Environmentalism, if it gets any sponsorship from the Technocracy,
>>is funded largely by ItX who are trying to minimalise the importance of
>>Heavy Industry in a post-ascention paradigm, and by Progenitors who have
>>some kind of nostalgia for an agricultural economy.
So, we will all fly in our spiffy shiny metal suits and teleport all about,
once we've raised the base realm sphere level to 14 (up from 10 (we fools
think it's arete 0, but we are idiots))
Steven White
Stunt Borg
On 3 Jun 1997, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
> In <Pine.A41.3.96.970602...@aruba.u.arizona.edu>
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>
> >On 2 Jun 1997, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:>
>
> >I find it easier to attribute nations _rivalling_ each other as the
> >work of vampires, and nations _unifying_ as the work of the
> >Technocracy. Note that the issues of union are often completely
>
> Of course, "One Truth, One World, One Reality." They'd prefer the
> nations of earth to get along...all the better to assimilate, them,
> my dear.
Quite true. But the fact is, this isn't a bad idea in and of itself.
The European Monetary Union is an example of what I like to call 'the
nice side of the Syndicate'. For 50 years, there has been *no* military
tension between France and Britain and (West) Germany, nor any of the
Union members. They argue and yell and rant about trade and tariffs and
laws, that's certain, but they deal with these issues without killing
each other or threatening to. And they haven't threatened to for over
half a century ... in all the history of that continent, this is
unprecedented.
Efforts at a Pacific Rim Union continue to grow, as do fledgling
efforts to extend NAFTA to Chile. These pacts have flaws, yes. Many.
But if the result is that China doesn't threaten to invade Japan and
Korea and fights are spent in currency and not in blood, it is worth
the effort to see these Syndicate efforts succeed.
The 'good side' of the Syndicate dream is that black will stop hating
white, Tutsi will stop fighting Hutu, Muslim and Jew will find peace,
and everyone will settle to the business making everyone filthy rich.
The 'bad side', of course, is that the Syndicate frequently forgets
about such things as 'working conditions' and 'environmental effects'
in their utopian zeal. The good sides of the NWO and ItX help
somewhat, respectively, but without the Traditions, these areas would
suffer more than they do.
> >abstract issues like 'European monetary union' (Syndicate, anyone?)
> >and 'arms control treaties' (NWO?) and 'research on climate change'
> >(ItX Statisticians?) bring nations together.
>
> True...and gives the Union more ways to exert control over the
> respective societies.
Given that the above three issues are about: 1) never fighting wars,
2) controlling the carnage of what wars do occur, and 3) controlling
the side-effects of technology, I would again assert that this control,
in and of itself, is not a bad thing.
(The uses to which this control is put, on the other hand, is a
completely different manner :) ).
> >In terms of what's theoretically available:
> > 1. Hydroelectric
> > 2. Wind
> > 3. Geothermal
> > 4. Natural Gas/Hydrogen
> > 5. Solar
> > 6. 'Utopian' (SoE stuff - cold fusion and so on)
> > 7. Fission
> > 8. Fusion
> > 9. Antimatter
>
> Yes, I know these exist...why do we still have millions of
> automobiles expelling far too much carbon monoxide into the
> atmosphere? The oil companies are certainly not all for an
> alternative, and seem to spend money to prevent the use of such.
You snipped out all of my point by analysis of these, where I pretty
much granted just that. I see this as a schism in the Techs,
specifically between the 'MegaCorp' faction of the Syndicate and a
group of Physicist/Artificer ItX and the entrepeneur-faction of the
Syndicate.
The old-guard Syndicate wants to make every last penny off the oil and
coal trades. The new guard wants to worship at the altar of new power
sources from enormous structures (fusion plants, mega-dams, windmill
collectives). For now, the old guard has the upper hand, and suppresses
threats to oil's hegemony, while permitting research into alternatives.
> Then, of course, there is the tobacco lobby. Biased research papers
> offered as proof that smoking cigarettes is not hazardous...of course
> a point could be made that the Progenitors are trying to stop this,
> the Syndicate seems to enjoy the great cash cow of cigarettes.
I'd agree. I dislike a 'monolithic' Union, painted as some sort of
omnipotent Big Brother. It is much more enjoyable to see it as a Union
filled with debate and compromise. The Syndicate/Pharmacopeist group
*loves* tobacco, while the Progenitor Surgeon/Doctors hate it (and
possibly make common cause with some technopagan Verbena to undermine
it? ...).
<snipped agreement on Sons theories often being too 'out-there'>
> >The Sons might make one of these theories work if they were less
> >utopian and more thoroughly researched, such that small business
> >labs could replicate it (there are thousands of power-generation
> >research labs worldwide, scattered across all nations and hundreds
> >of companies - the Sons _CAN_ appeal to the profit motive if they
> >make something simple that actually holds up in Technocrat reality,
> >and the Syndicate would likely jump on the bandwagon).
>
> Probably true...but the Artificers and the Progenitors would probably
> fight it every step of the way.
At first, certainly. But this ability to play the Conventions off of
one another is the best part of the Technocracy. At least, that's how
any rational Trad mage should look at it.
If a Trad mage can make something so desirable that the Sleepers
really, really want it, the Syndicate immediately becomes an unwitting
ally. No matter how much the NWO *hates* occult TV shows and
paraphenalia, they're never going away with the Syndicate around,
making an obscene profit on it all. Yes, the NWO still steps in and
says 'it is all hocus-pocus', but the Syndicate loves it and sells it
still.
Unlike the other 4 Conventions, the Syndicate has *nothing* to do with
Science. It is all about helping the Sleepers fulfill their material
dreams, *whatever* those dreams are (yes, this isn't all good). It is
about marketing, and making, and selling, and trading. The Syndicate
keeps MTV alive, no matter how much the NWO hates the access this gives
the Cultists of Ecstasy. It reaps a share of homeopathic medicine,
despite the wailings of the Pharmacopeists. It profits from acupunture
and martial arts dojos, whatever the Surgeons/Doctors say. It makes
money on the stocks of all those VA companies, and puts its fingers all
over the Web.
The Syndicate is the Trad mage's greatest ally, if you know how to play
the game :)
> >7. Fission - other than some icky bars that need to be sealed in
> >glass and concrete for 40,000 years, no pollution at all.
>
> A minor setback... Odds are that we'll find a way to deal with these
> more efficiently within the next century.
True. But the staunch opposition *anything* 'nuclear' has in the public
perception turns the Syndicate off in a big way. The Syndicate does not
market things against the grain of the Consensus if it can help it.
Nuclear power is *way* against the grain of the consensus (Werewolf
books help push it that way :) ).
> >Unfortunately, anything but the most CAREFULLY regulated nuclear
> >power is Wyrm-tainted in the WoD, and the Garou and Dreamspeakers
> >and Gangrel and Verbena have made this so stigmatized that the
> >Syndicate simply can't profit much from it. So it languishes for the
most part.
>
> I don't think that nuclear power itself is wyrm...after all, the
> radiation elementals are truly bizarre. Rather, I think it's the
> *results* of said radiation which the Wyrm-things find "tasty." It
> also probably makes it easier to make fomori and other odd things.
I agree, hence my proviso 'anything but the most CAREFULLY'. It's my
opinion that Pentex is a huge share of the nuclear power market in the
WoD, given the horrid effects nuclear waste has on Garou and spirits
and the general Wyrm-love for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Syndicate has still mostly given in here, I think. Too low of a
profit/effort ratio.
> >8. Fusion - being worked on avidly. Fusion works (H-Bombs are
> >uncontrolled Hydrogen fusion set off by a fission bomb). Controlled
> >fusion even works in a reactor, but thus far requires more energy to
> >maintain the field and the heat than the fusion gives back. Current
> >research is supported by national governments needing energy badly
> >(Japan is in the forefront). At the current rate of progress, 'break
> >even' of more power gained than expended is expected in about 20
> >years, with actual power plants possible in 10 to 20 years
> >afterward. Drawback is that fusion plants will HAVE to be expensive
> >and huge. They'll provide a ton of power, but they'll be one or two
> >to a nation type things, and cost hundreds of millions.
>
> Is this an accurate timetable for introduction?
That is the current 'if things keep going as well as they have'
estimate, and it assumes a *lot* of things. Like continued funding. And
no new unforseen theoretical limitations. And no public outcry a-la
fission power (because, after all, this is *nuclear* fusion ...
*sigh*). And assuming that once it's possible they can convince nations
for the billions of investment it'll take to get the first plants
running. And assuming there isn't some horrible disaster with the first
plants that turns off the public (read: Tradition sabotage).
40 to 50 years to fusion is realistically *possible*, but by no means
guaranteed.
<snipped agreement over Syndicate orgasm when fusion arrives>
<other points I agree with snipped>
> >> Ah, the easy out. Blame anything that goes wrong on the Nephandi.
>
> >Nah. Blame the Changelings. They're the REAL problem ;)
>
> Yeah, what do they contribute? Nothing!
heheheh
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
still thinks the Articifer/Void vision that reached the moon is
far more wondrous than anything the fae have managed since ...
Justin78tx
I'm not positive for sure, but I think that the name of the pack is based
off of Pulp Fiction, since the pck's leader is named Ezekial
I t would be Ezekial 25:17, I f you've seen the movie( which is likely)
you'll know what I'm talking about
Richard Chilton
Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote in article
<5mu4no$a49$1...@kelly.teleport.com>...
> References: <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
> I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of mortals...although
> I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
> couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
According to the clan book they wanted both sides to build underground
shelters. THey considered the chance nukes use be use to be low enough
that the risk was acceptable. Sooner or later, they figured, the threat of
nuclear war would end and they'd be vast underground complexes for the
Noferatu to move into.
Richard
CJ
Ok, I saw the movie. A LONG time ago. And don't recall, so could
someone email with details? :) Thanks.
CJ cy...@linknet.net http://www4.linknet.net
CJ_Avatar or CJ_Ferret on undernet I.R.C.
"Everything is possible, including the impossible."
"Visit the condom god before you visit the love goddess."
Richard Bell
In article <Pine.A41.3.96.970602...@aruba.u.arizona.edu>,
Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>
>9. Antimatter - it exists. In billions and trillionths of a gram. It
>costs millions of times the energy to make than it actually releases.
>There is no known natural source nearby to be mined. Like Hydrogen,
>antimatter is ultimately not a Fuel, but a way to store energy
>effeciently. The energy must first come from elsewhere. Given current
>rates of progress, microgram quantities may be manufactured in 80 to
>100 years, creating enough antimatter to use in unmanned probes or for
>certain precise medical treatments and metallurgical scans/repairs.
>
>WoD: The Syndicate is tired of funneling money into this ItX and Void
>Engineer black hole with no return. Some avant-garde Progenitors like
>the idea of using picogram quantities of antimatter to cure lesions,
>but the long projected delay on affordable 'mass' production is far
>away. The Syndicate acts accordingly.
>
But antimatter does not fit into the Techncratic paradigm. It is
easier to describe antimatter as a paradox backlash from dispelling
the Ether. Producing ton lots of antimatter today is no more unbelievable
than television would have been to the people who ridiculed Marconi;
therefore, there must be something that the technos dislike about it.
Stunt Borg
On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Richard Bell wrote:
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >9. Antimatter - it exists. In billions and trillionths of a gram.
<snip me own stuff)
> >WoD: The Syndicate is tired of funneling money into this ItX and
> >Void Engineer black hole with no return. Some avant-garde
> >Progenitors like the idea of using picogram quantities of antimatter
> >to cure lesions, but the long projected delay on affordable 'mass'
> >production is far away. The Syndicate acts accordingly.
>
> But antimatter does not fit into the Techncratic paradigm.
Why do you say this? It is a natural result of most nuclear theory, and
and essential side effect of many of the Grand Unification Theories.
Enrico Fermi, one of the pioneering particle physicists, who helped
define the field, strikes me as a perfect ItX Physicist/Void Celestial
Master. The theory is an essential component of much of the work of
Stephen Hawking, who posited that black holes could slowly evaporate
under the influence of quantum-spawned particle/antiparticle pairs.
The entire theory is based in the idea that matter is composed of
particles, but those particles have theoretical mirror images of
identical mass but reversed charge and magnetic moment.
The theory posits that making the stuff is insanely difficult, and all
efforts of production to date have borne this out.
Where does this not fit the Technomancer paradigm?
> It is easier to describe antimatter as a paradox backlash from
> dispelling the Ether.
Localized ether winds are alive and well in the Deep Umbra according to
the Son of Ether book. I don't see the need for a paradox backlash at
the loss of universal ether any more than there was a backlash when the
dragons went away and the unicorns disappeared.
> Producing ton lots of antimatter today is no more unbelievable than
> television would have been to the people who ridiculed Marconi;
> therefore, there must be something that the technos dislike about it.
No self-respecting journal reader would grant that at all. The
recently-discovered antimatter plume near the galaxy's core is *always*
mentioned in the press as being 'nearly inexplicable, for antimatter is
incredibly difficult to create'. Or some such variant.
Any physics-educated Sleeper will not accept the notion of antimatter
in more than millionth of a millionth of a gram quantities. Star Trek
fantasy aside, it will likely be several decades before we can even
start reliably making nanograms of the stuff. The entire set of theory
which predicts it places extreme constraints on its nature. Unlike the
Sons of Ether, the Techs cannot just pop off a new discovery without
considering previous theory - they *must* make their advances mesh with
previous work or somehow coherently overwrite part of their previous
work while linking up with the rest seamlessly. This is a dauntingly
difficult task.
However, once we can reliably make micrograms of the stuff in a century
or so, *lots* of interesting applications become feasible (though it
would still be cheaper to use nukes for explosive, given the
*enormously* prohibitive cost/yield of antimatter).
To those interested in the topic, I would recommend 'Mirror Matter', a
book on practical antimatter history and theory, written by Robert L.
Forward and Joel Somethingorother.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
will go to work now and push some boxes around
Eric Robert Sylwester
Deirdre M. Brooks (xe...@kelly.teleport.com) wrote:
: >8. Fusion - being worked on avidly. Fusion works (H-Bombs are
: >uncontrolled Hydrogen fusion set off by a fission bomb). Controlled
: >fusion even works in a reactor, but thus far requires more energy to
: >maintain the field and the heat than the fusion gives back. Current
: >research is supported by national governments needing energy badly
: >(Japan is in the forefront). At the current rate of progress, 'break
: >even' of more power gained than expended is expected in about 20 years,
: >with actual power plants possible in 10 to 20 years afterward. Drawback
: >is that fusion plants will HAVE to be expensive and huge. They'll
: >provide a ton of power, but they'll be one or two to a nation type
: >things, and cost hundreds of millions.
: Is this an accurate timetable for introduction?
Weeeelll...Since it's inception in the '50s and '60s, Fusion power has
always been only 20 years away.
So, if you want to believe the scientists today who tell you "yeah, but
now we MEAN it" go ahead. :)
And he's completely right about the hugeness, and not many people realize
just how big a problem this is. For example, the US stays away from
centralized power sources because you don't want to knock out, say, all of
New York (the state) every time a wire falls down.
If it turns out that we can eventually build a fusion plant, but that it's
only cost effective if we build it big enough to power all of California,
chances are it will never get built simply because- what happens when it
goes down for maintenance? After all, it's too costly to build a backup.
: >Paul Lowe Hlavacek
: > probably reads too much Scientific American and Popular Science
: > for his own good
: That's okay, I read it as well.
SiAm; "Physics for Poets."
Got a subscription myself <g>.
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <5n1ubq$mel$1...@kelly.teleport.com>,
Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote:
>Then, of course, there is the tobacco lobby. Biased research papers
>offered as proof that smoking cigarettes is not hazardous...of course a
>point could be made that the Progenitors are trying to stop this, the
>Syndicate seems to enjoy the great cash cow of cigarettes.
Maybe there are Progenitors in the tobacco lobbies who are trying to
return us to the time when cigarettes were viewed as healthy.
Indeed, cigarettes were once seen as good for the respiratory system. So
the obvious solution for Progenitors who want to keep tens of thousands of
people working and cigarette users still smoking is to remove the health
problems. By making a formerly healthy and enormously popular activity
a cause of a terrible and degenerative illness, perhaps a group like
Pentex is gaining.
Why? Infusing cigarettes with the Wyrm is one reason. Spreading disease
is another. Forcing people to confront their addictions is another. What
are in those little patches people wear, anyway? Experimental chemo
treatments may allow Pentex to make more fomori than ever. I am sure that
lots of Garou smoked. Now they are taking part in a suddenly wyrm-tainted
activity.
Most of this is just story type material, but I think two points bear
mentioning out of this:
1) If reality is subjective, you have to apply that rule consistantly.
Blaming the messenger is very important. Environmentalists are to blame
for the ozone layer problem, the greenhouse effect and acid rain. (You
could argue that deforestation and extinctions aren't). Tobacco problems
are the result of doctors' studies, not cigarette companies, who did a
moral service by covering it up for as long as possible. If this seems
bass ackwards to you, blame the subjectivity of reality, not me for
applying that rule.
2) The very fact that there is so much public debate (and that the
tobacco lobbies are losing) seems to show that in the WoD, the ruling
Technocracy is at odds with itself over policy. And government regulation
of the lucrative tobacco industry would likely be very much a New World
Order-friendly policy. The Syndicate, no doubt, would oppose it. There
is a perception that the Technocracy is a single, unified bloc of power,
and that it is uniformly malevolent and Weaver-dominated.
But since the Technocrats (except perhaps ItX) don't view reality that
way, they should not be characterized that way. That's why they have
internal debates and oppositions; that's why they have Symposiums at all.
I preferred Mage 1st in that regard; for about two months after Mage was
originally released the emphasis was on the Technocracy as being evil
since it took the magic and possibility out of life; now it is more a
generically evil organization, much like Pentex or the Sabbat.
That Brucato-era Mage is returning to that original view is a very
positive step. It makes the roleplaying more interesting when your enemy
is an enemy for philosophical reasons, not because he is trying to hunt
you and your family down to please his demon overlords. Sure, it makes
you think more about what tactics are right and wrong, and, yes, you have
to consider whether your side is actually right. But I prefer that kind
of gaming to the kind where your opponent is indefensibly malevolent.
Rob
--
Robert Mayberry Student of Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu | "Never underestimate the power of
tanz...@r56h193.res.gatech.edu | human stupidity"- R.A. Heinlein
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <Pine.A41.3.96.970603...@f1n7.U.Arizona.EDU>,
Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
Excellent post. I have to take issue with this, though:
>Unlike the other 4 Conventions, the Syndicate has *nothing* to do with
>Science. It is all about helping the Sleepers fulfill their material
Wrong, IMO. Either Economics is a science, or political science isn't a
science. Either way, you have the muchy Social science Conventions: the
NWO and Syndicate. And you have the technological Conventions: Void
Engineers, Iteration X and Progenitors. Frankly, I can't tell what the
paradigm differences are between the VEs and ItX, they seem primarily
social. And I can't see why there isn't a Convention for materials
technology (ceramics, textiles, and aggregates)- one of the oldest and
most powerful technologies. Bruce Sterling once wrote an article for FSF
about superglue; I think that WW should have someone look it up and read
it. Even if the traditions don't know about it, they would have to be one
of the most successful and subtle of the Conventions.
ROb
flagator
In article <5n45fb$l...@drn.zippo.com>, Blake (blak...@technologist.com) wrote:
> I'm not sure about this. Remember, in the subjective reality of Mage,
> 'science' works backwards. The Progenitors didn't discover that germs
> caused disease, they created the germs (and possibly some of the diseases),
> The Void Engineers didn't discover the moons of Jupiter, they put them
> there by the act of looking for them, and the Syndicate - in some bizarre
> validation of Say's Law - don't give the sleepers what they want, they
> cause the sleepers to want what they give. Sounds wierd, I know, but,
> that's actually how Technomancy works. Now, it doesn't always work, so
> the Sleepers might start demanding something the Syndicate never planned
> to produce, and other sleepers would start producing it, using the paradigms
> of the Conventions that they have access to.
[snip]
So *that's* where Chia Pets come from.
Or maybe the opposite is true. I can see it now: Ron Popeil, Son of
Ether... "Now, vile Nephandus, feel the barbs of my Ronco Pocket
Fisher-of-Souls!"
--
Another Thoughtful Posting Lovingly Crafted By SteveO.,
Who Watches Far Too Much Late Night TV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Email addy is ANTI-SPAM modified. Remove the NO-SPAM part to reply.
Ian R Lowe
Stunt Borg wrote in article ...
>Quite true. But the fact is, this isn't a bad idea in and of itself.
>The European Monetary Union is an example of what I like to call 'the
>nice side of the Syndicate'. For 50 years, there has been *no* military
>tension between France and Britain and (West) Germany, nor any of the
>Union members. They argue and yell and rant about trade and tariffs and
>laws, that's certain, but they deal with these issues without killing
>each other or threatening to. And they haven't threatened to for over
>half a century ... in all the history of that continent, this is
>unprecedented.
And let me tell you, as a citizen of the UK, I am really really really
happy with that situation! It's one of the things that really pisses me off
about flag wavers who are anti-europe, anti-federal, anti-union. If people
trade on a level platform, then there will not be another world war. The
only danger of that now looks like the various "nutter" states.
In game terms I believe that one of the largest positives for the
technocracy is the elimination of global conflict!
>Efforts at a Pacific Rim Union continue to grow, as do fledgling
>efforts to extend NAFTA to Chile. These pacts have flaws, yes. Many.
>But if the result is that China doesn't threaten to invade Japan and
>Korea and fights are spent in currency and not in blood, it is worth
>the effort to see these Syndicate efforts succeed.
And let's hope that this paves the way succesfully for a single world
government!
>The 'good side' of the Syndicate dream is that black will stop hating
>white, Tutsi will stop fighting Hutu, Muslim and Jew will find peace,
>and everyone will settle to the business making everyone filthy rich.
I agree completely!
>The 'bad side', of course, is that the Syndicate frequently forgets
>about such things as 'working conditions' and 'environmental effects'
>in their utopian zeal. The good sides of the NWO and ItX help
>somewhat, respectively, but without the Traditions, these areas would
>suffer more than they do.
Well, you can't have the syndicate being perfect now can you?
;)
Ian.
---
This message has been protected against SPAM mailers. to reply to me in
person,
please remove the word " PRIVACY " from the return address.
sorry for any inconvenience, but I value both my time and money !
Kurt Heyder
CJ wrote:
>
> On 4 Jun 1997 06:19:07 GMT, justi...@aol.com (Justin78tx) wrote:
>
> >I'm not positive for sure, but I think that the name of the pack is based
> >off of Pulp Fiction, since the pck's leader is named Ezekial
> >I t would be Ezekial 25:17, I f you've seen the movie( which is likely)
> >you'll know what I'm talking about
Yes it is the now famous (infamous?) "path of the righteous man"
Ezekiel 25:17.
-Kurt
Microvore
In article <864388...@dejanews.com>, j_h...@hotmail.com writes:
>I thought the 'science is bad/ uncreative/ wyrm-tainted' line was one of
>the WW canon arguments. Its always been weak at best, and hopelessly
>early '90s new-age-trendiness at worst (the standard line from people who
>consider themselves artistic and have to damn alternative endeavours
>which they don't understand and make them feel inadequate ;) )
I don't think that White Wolf are against technology, per se. They just
think it needs a bit of... Glamour!
High King "Cool, I Used A Changeling Word" David
Kyle Anderson Felker
JamesE1 (jam...@aol.com) wrote:
: <<do you have to also beleive that you can unite with deity somehow, a la
: Hinduism, say. I mean, how widespread is that "all return to the One"
: line>>
: Oooh, good question. Tough one!
: Choristers might maintain that while their mystical experience results in
: the dissolution of the ego into the divine (there is no "I" but for the
: One), but the degrees of dissolution could vary. Some Choristers may say
: that the return to the One is inevitable, while others could easily say
: that the One fractured into Many for a reason, and while the Many will
: ultimately be reconciled to the One, they will not necessarily be fully
: absorbed into it, thus maintaining some sense of "I and Thou".
: This is just a quick off-the-cuff answer; hope it helps...
What I'm specifically asking is; Can I call myself a chorister and beleive
that I will *not* ultimately become part of the One? I can beleive in his
existence, and that he or she is the source of my magick, which I would
probably refer to as "miracles" or "Wonders" or "blessings" rather than
"magick", which is a pagan term and denotes internal power rather than
external, but what if I don't think that the Many will ever become One? I
mean, from what I've seen of christian religion, the basic beleif is that
we all go to heaven and share a different relationship with god, not
neccessarily becoming "part" of him per se.
: James Estes
: ===================================
: james estes, looking eagle
: storyteller, writer & game designer
: washington, d.c.
--
---------------------------------------
Kyle Felker (kafe...@ocean.st.usm.edu)
"Boil, boil, toil and trouble
Fire burn and cauldron bubble!"
- Shakespeare, _Macbeth_
---------------------------------------
Stunt Borg
On 5 Jun 1997, Bruno Panz-Jones wrote:
> In article <Pine.A41.3.96.970603...@f1n7.U.Arizona.EDU>,
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>
> Excellent post. I have to take issue with this, though:
>
> >Unlike the other 4 Conventions, the Syndicate has *nothing* to do with
> >Science. It is all about helping the Sleepers fulfill their material
>
> Wrong, IMO. Either Economics is a science, or political science isn't a
> science. Either way, you have the muchy Social science Conventions: the
> NWO and Syndicate.
Heheheh. Mea Culpa. I will admit, being a double-major grad of Biology
types, to often shorthanding 'physical science' to 'science', kinda
slapping the social scientists without thinking about it. I see a few
hard scientists in the NWO, but mostly social scientists. Syndicate is
ONLY social science.
You are right. I should restate:
'Unlike the other conventions, the Syndicate has *nothing* to do with
the hard scientific underpinnings of natural law/reality. They share
ground with some NWO in helping Sleepers fulfill their material dreams
(with all the good and bad this entails).'
> And you have the technological Conventions: Void Engineers,
> Iteration X and Progenitors. Frankly, I can't tell what the paradigm
> differences are between the VEs and ItX, they seem primarily social.
I see the Voids as cosmologists/ecologists/surveyors, but their
research is done primarily with detection devices and protective
materials. ItX, being the old articifers, should be the ones designing
most of the Void Engines, then letting the Voids make more.
> And I can't see why there isn't a Convention for materials
> technology (ceramics, textiles, and aggregates)- one of the oldest
> and most powerful technologies. Bruce Sterling once wrote an article
> for FSF about superglue; I think that WW should have someone look it
> up and read it. Even if the traditions don't know about it, they
> would have to be one of the most successful and subtle of the
> Conventions.
Given WoD history, the Articifers were this Convention. They had a
simple role: they made things. This Convention became ItX in 'the Great
Renaming'.
I really think that the 'cyborg fixated', 'Tradition-hating' ItX should
more properly be the remnant of the Electrodyne and Difference
Engineers, bitter as hell at their departed brethren for undermining so
much work, and now lost in Autochthonic Utopia and hatred.
The Articifer-ItX should be the main faction, filled with Architects
and Physical Scientists and Statisticians and Time-Motion Managers. The
ultimate stereotypical engineers, out to effeciently build a better
reality :)
The complete absence of this faction in the ItX book ticks me off.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
has to remind himself that social scientists are scientists
too :)
Keith Russell
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> >> >> Then why do nuclear warheads work? Why do CFC's destroy the ozone
> >> >> layer?
>
> >Nuclear warheads *don't* work. Ever seen a limited tactial exchange
> >take place? I doubt that you'll ever see one given that the wraiths
> There are fifty years of nuclear tests in the Pacific to prove that
> statement wrong. Of *course* exchanges never occurred - most governments
> are more intelligent than that.
Does an island which is far from civilisation (thus sleeper) seem like a
sanctum to you? Admittedly later on in the affair everyone knew about
the tests, but early on they were state secrets, and protected from
media-induced paradox. Fall-out and the theory of nuclear winter seem
like paradox flaws, the perfect bomb which worked too well. I guess
they became death personified in sleeper minds after their media release
(see below).
> >like to keep station around military units and such, try and stop
> >another storm down there. Why do you think boot-camp is so emotionally
> Do they? I'm not so sure about that...also consider the high shroud in
> such areas as missile silos.
Suicide rates and emotional disturbances are high among silo operators.
Submariners have no privacy, and there were many catastrophes in early
Russian nuclear vessels at least. The pathos here is hate and angst.
Boot-camp is the first step in generating really fucked up individuals.
You have to be fucked up to include killing people in your job specs.
> >violent? Got to have some pathos around. :) Even given that the
> What does Fort Leonard Woode have to do with nuclear silos?
> >wraiths weren't in the way nuclear weapons are very likely to be
> >*opposed* magick, hell even if they aren't "boosted" with spheres
> >they're still likely to be opposed magickally.
> If that's the case, then why were Hiroshima and Nagasaki cinders at the
> end of WWII.
US SoE High-Physics & High-Maths divisions, boosted with input from
dislocated Jewish and anti-Fascist SoEs from Europe with NWO(US)
assistance. Big Brass believed in Big Bombs, the public believed in
Bringing the Boys home, and after the failure of NWO(Third Reich),
NWO(Nippon) just wasn't able to resist it. They weren't able to oppose
firebombings. Keys to the success: Secrecy, Technocracy Backstabbing,
Public desire. If it had been more open that they were going to play
with this kind of stuff Euthanatos would have wanted in, so would have
wraiths, OoH, Verbena and almost every super on the block. Then again
if it was that open propagandists would have been decrying it to the
general public.
But it worked. And the media re-inforced the fact. I have no doubt
that Traditions and Conventions in targeted countries would have opposed
MAD launches or Tactical uses. Command structures, equipment failures,
and at the individual level an unwillingness to use weapons of
mass-destruction would have knocked out at least half of the arsenal.
A similar question may be asked "Why weren't chemical weapons used by
NWO(UK) or NWO(Third Reich) during WWII?" Probably because the goal of
war for Syndicate and NWO is acquisition of resources, not elimination
of Sleepers. Even carpet bombing had to be used in limited
circumstances first (Spain), and after that success the media criticised
the act, thus publicising it for later use.
> >> Nuclear weapons work because the Technocracy wants them to. Why they
> >> want them, I'm not sure: It could be that the Cold War and Nuclear
>
> No... Nuclear weapons work because they were made a part of the consensus.
> If things only worked because the Technos wanted them to, then the
> Progenitors would have no difficulties with their Damage Control beasties,
> and HIT Marks could pop off with their chainguns with impunity.
Any sensible Progger just lets steriod boys and gals do their work,
breed 'em strong, make 'em stronger. Leave the half-man half-bull
half-octopus in the play-pen. Similar with HIT Marks.. why bother when
two hired suits could do it and it'd just be a gang-land assasination.
Nuclear weapons worked at the end of WWII because of secrecy and a large
investment in their function. They worked in tests because the
witnesses believed in them. But its obvious that the "Wonder Bomb" idea
failed because of unforseen paradox flaws, fall-out, EMP, long term
radiation, climatic change. Sleepers just don't want to think about
that much death at once.
> >> Proliferation were just steps in a technarch plan to eventually
> >> produce a unified World Government; or it could be that they eventually plan
> >> to use them on the Traditions, or other threats; maybe they're going
> >> to use them to stop and asteroid or commet from striking the earth
> >> (actually a monsterous Nephandic attack).
> Or maybe proliferation occurred because two major world powers played a
> game of brinkmanship for over four decades. Why blame everything on the
> supernaturals?
Why aren't supernaturals petty in a nationalistic way just like sleepers
are. A Jewish CC doesn't stop being Jewish. A Russian or American NWO
doesn't stop being who they were.
> >Cf: CCCP/US antagonism as faction wars between Syndicate(Marxist) and
> >Syndicate(Capitalist) factions, similarly between NWO(Russian
> >Nationalist) and NWO(US Nationalist) forces.
> I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of mortals...although
> I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
> couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
I see the cold war as a natural extention of the brinkmanship between
differant NWO and Syndicate factions for the past 200 years or so. Its
still a Sleeper thing though, the Sleepers want a Strong Nation with the
Right Method of Economics, and the awakened from those nations will try
to help them get what they want, at least in the Technocracy they
usually have some bent sense of altruism.
> Probably a fairly good explanation. Now why has the Technocracy not
> offered an alternative fuel source into the paradigm which isn't harmful
> to the atmosphere? I mean, other than gasoline?
>
> >> In either case they have been picked up by the nephandi (the Garou
> >> Wyrm) and twisted towards evil ends. Why do you think
> >> environmentalism gets so much support?
>
> Ah, the easy out. Blame anything that goes wrong on the Nephandi. After
> all, it's not like one would pop up to contradict you. Of course, the
> bastards would probably accept the credit for it anyway.
I was just thinking about this one.
Perhaps Paradox flaws in Technocracy plans are because they're trying
for Ascention by Unified Field Theory. Goedel's poked a hole in their
efforts, and try as they might there will be things implicit in their
theories which they can't predict. On a larger note Paradox-flaws in
unopposed magic are probably just reality following through with the
entire desire of the mage, including the subconscious elements which
they didn't think of. "Sure we need a Wonder-bomb, we'll make something
which can kill anything." And it did: it promised to kill the entire
world when used en-mass.
Li2CO3
Queenie
Actually, in the book "The Enchanted" for CtD it says that the reason
that steel doesn't hurt fae while iron does is that human sceince
brought creativity to iron, that sceince made the banal metal non-banal
through its sheer creativity.
Remember that WW is hardly one being. There are a lot of diffrent
writters and editors working on these books, and some of each ones bias
is going to sneak in - as well as the fact that a lot of what they write
is in character. So one minute you are going to have the "Oh no, the
sceintist destroyed my freehold." in a book the next "Sceince is so
great it can make the most banal thing in the world really cool."
I often play Changeling characters who have big sceince backgrounds.
But the one problem that I see with the fae and sceince is this. Stunt
Borg once said something about how sceintists must be sceptical - they
can not, as sceintists, accept something without proof (and or
observation). But what about the situation where the mear act of
sceptical observation kills that which is being observed.
"Well, I don't beilve you are fae, but let me do some tests - I'll stay
skeptical till the evidence comes in."
"Never mind Doc, by the time your tests are done there won't be any fae
left to discover."
Z
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Bruno Panz-Jones) spake unto us:
>In article <5n1ubq$mel$1...@kelly.teleport.com>,
>Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote:
>>Then, of course, there is the tobacco lobby. Biased research papers
>>offered as proof that smoking cigarettes is not hazardous...of course a
>>point could be made that the Progenitors are trying to stop this, the
>>Syndicate seems to enjoy the great cash cow of cigarettes.
>Maybe there are Progenitors in the tobacco lobbies who are trying to
>return us to the time when cigarettes were viewed as healthy.
>Indeed, cigarettes were once seen as good for the respiratory system. So
>the obvious solution for Progenitors who want to keep tens of thousands of
>people working and cigarette users still smoking is to remove the health
>problems. By making a formerly healthy and enormously popular activity
>a cause of a terrible and degenerative illness, perhaps a group like
>Pentex is gaining.
They were seen as this, doesn't mean they were. Whoever made them
unhealthy (Progenitors, Syndicate, Nephandi, Pentex, or Paradox) did a
good job of hiding the truth for many years.
>Most of this is just story type material, but I think two points bear
>mentioning out of this:
>1) If reality is subjective, you have to apply that rule consistantly.
>Blaming the messenger is very important. Environmentalists are to blame
>for the ozone layer problem, the greenhouse effect and acid rain. (You
>could argue that deforestation and extinctions aren't). Tobacco problems
>are the result of doctors' studies, not cigarette companies, who did a
>moral service by covering it up for as long as possible. If this seems
>bass ackwards to you, blame the subjectivity of reality, not me for
>applying that rule.
What if the greenhouse effect is Paradox striking back at the
Technocracy's solidification of reality? Maybe Reality (and Gaia)
isn't as passive as the Mages think?
The Technocrats are the ones that made CO2 and other gases the way
they are, either by design or Paradox in their formation.
Environmentalists are the Sleepers who have listened to the
Dreamspeakers and Verbena (and possibly Garou). Alternatively the
Greenhouse is a manifestation of the sickness of Gaia, either in a way
that Sleepers could understand or the only way it could in the current
paradigm.
Even in subjective reality, blaming the messenger is the easy way
out.
>2) The very fact that there is so much public debate (and that the
>tobacco lobbies are losing) seems to show that in the WoD, the ruling
>Technocracy is at odds with itself over policy. And government regulation
>of the lucrative tobacco industry would likely be very much a New World
>Order-friendly policy. The Syndicate, no doubt, would oppose it. There
>is a perception that the Technocracy is a single, unified bloc of power,
>and that it is uniformly malevolent and Weaver-dominated.
>But since the Technocrats (except perhaps ItX) don't view reality that
>way, they should not be characterized that way. That's why they have
>internal debates and oppositions; that's why they have Symposiums at all.
>I preferred Mage 1st in that regard; for about two months after Mage was
>originally released the emphasis was on the Technocracy as being evil
>since it took the magic and possibility out of life; now it is more a
>generically evil organization, much like Pentex or the Sabbat.
The Technocracy's "evil" still is, and always has been taking the
possibility out of magick (and life) and trying to solidify Reality's
paradigm. But at the core, the Technocracy is run by humans, and as
such, they won't agree whole heartedly in the way to accomplish that
goal (ItX's stereotypical conformity comes from their removal of their
humanity, but even they have internal debates, just look at the story
in the Convention book for an example)
>That Brucato-era Mage is returning to that original view is a very
>positive step. It makes the roleplaying more interesting when your enemy
>is an enemy for philosophical reasons, not because he is trying to hunt
>you and your family down to please his demon overlords. Sure, it makes
>you think more about what tactics are right and wrong, and, yes, you have
>to consider whether your side is actually right. But I prefer that kind
>of gaming to the kind where your opponent is indefensibly malevolent.
Z
________________________________
"The great sin of the Technocracy
is not science, or even murder --
it is the oppression under one vision."
"So You're a tick. So What?
I mean I get all kinds here.
Imperial Romans, Extraterrestrials,
Time Travelling Fish. You think
being a tick is bad, try being
The Walking Dead."
"Gee, no thanks."
"Yeah, well, you see
what I mean, right."
- The soda jerk and The Tick
conversing
Tick #1
Note: Any use of my email for advertisement or anything
commercial is strictly forbidden and considered extremely
obscene by myself, in which case makes it illegal
under the Communications Indecency Act and liable for
up to $50,000 in fines.
Deirdre M. Brooks
In <5n3g8f$d55$1...@thor.atcon.com> "Richard Chilton" <rchi...@auracom.com>
writes:
>Deirdre M. Brooks <xe...@kelly.teleport.com> wrote in article
><5mu4no$a49$1...@kelly.teleport.com>...
>> References: <339212...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
>> I tend to think the Cold War was primarily the work of mortals...although
>> I read a rumor that Nosferatu leaked the designs to the USSR so the US
>> couldn't dominate the world via nuclear blackmail.
>According to the clan book they wanted both sides to build underground
>shelters. THey considered the chance nukes use be use to be low enough
>that the risk was acceptable. Sooner or later, they figured, the threat of
>nuclear war would end and they'd be vast underground complexes for the
>Noferatu to move into.
You're right... I was confusing the Nosferatu's actions with the motives
of a LARP character I once played... :-) (loooong story, and inappropriate
for this thread)
>Richard
Deirdre M. Brooks
References: <5n5jgb$j...@acmez.gatech.edu>
In <5n5jgb$j...@acmez.gatech.edu> gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Bruno
Panz-Jones) writes:
>In article <5n1ubq$mel$1...@kelly.teleport.com>,
>Maybe there are Progenitors in the tobacco lobbies who are trying to
>return us to the time when cigarettes were viewed as healthy.
Maybe there was never a time when they *were* healthy, however.
>Indeed, cigarettes were once seen as good for the respiratory system. So
>the obvious solution for Progenitors who want to keep tens of thousands of
>people working and cigarette users still smoking is to remove the health
>problems. By making a formerly healthy and enormously popular activity
>a cause of a terrible and degenerative illness, perhaps a group like
>Pentex is gaining.
Perhaps...however, it's entirely possible that belief may have been that
tobacco was healthy...it really was not.
After all, we didn't need belief in gravity to avoid falling off the
planet, or belief in poisonous snakes for them to bite and kill people...
>1) If reality is subjective, you have to apply that rule consistantly.
>Blaming the messenger is very important. Environmentalists are to blame
>for the ozone layer problem, the greenhouse effect and acid rain. (You
>could argue that deforestation and extinctions aren't). Tobacco problems
>are the result of doctors' studies, not cigarette companies, who did a
>moral service by covering it up for as long as possible. If this seems
>bass ackwards to you, blame the subjectivity of reality, not me for
>applying that rule.
The point is, reality isn't subjective... In some ways, the way it works
*is*, but there were constants to the universe before the Union came along
and tried to get it all labeled and numbered. People fell down, no one
could predict the weather, the crops grew...and so on.
To reduce it all to a purely subjective belief-ruled reality is an
oversimplification.
On the other hand, the purely objective universe is (in reality) a thing
of the past, and has been since the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. :-)
>2) The very fact that there is so much public debate (and that the
>tobacco lobbies are losing) seems to show that in the WoD, the ruling
>Technocracy is at odds with itself over policy. And government regulation
>of the lucrative tobacco industry would likely be very much a New World
>Order-friendly policy. The Syndicate, no doubt, would oppose it. There
>is a perception that the Technocracy is a single, unified bloc of power,
>and that it is uniformly malevolent and Weaver-dominated.
That's not my opinion... The Weaver does not dominate the Technocracy, but
the Technocracy feeds the Weaver. It's a complex relationship. I also
don't feel that the Technos are a unified power-bloc (although there are
many who apparently think so). In my Mage chronicle, I've begun by making
them appear to be such...but over time, internal strife will be revealed.
>But since the Technocrats (except perhaps ItX) don't view reality that
>way, they should not be characterized that way. That's why they have
>internal debates and oppositions; that's why they have Symposiums at all.
Absolutely.
>I preferred Mage 1st in that regard; for about two months after Mage was
>originally released the emphasis was on the Technocracy as being evil
>since it took the magic and possibility out of life; now it is more a
>generically evil organization, much like Pentex or the Sabbat.
It has? I don't agree entirely... I never saw them as evil, rather I saw
them as the antagonist (NOT the same thing as evil).
Btw, Pentex and the Sabbat both have an equal amount of potential as
adversaries over simple evil presentations... One should *never* present
the antagonists as evil (from their own PoV), rather they should act as if
they believe they are doing the right thing...much more believable.
In the case of the Technocracy, they are out to *protect* humanity.
>That Brucato-era Mage is returning to that original view is a very
>positive step. It makes the roleplaying more interesting when your enemy
>is an enemy for philosophical reasons, not because he is trying to hunt
>you and your family down to please his demon overlords. Sure, it makes
>you think more about what tactics are right and wrong, and, yes, you have
>to consider whether your side is actually right. But I prefer that kind
>of gaming to the kind where your opponent is indefensibly malevolent.
Absolutely. No oppoenent, *even* a Nephandus, should be indefensibly
malevolent...I save things like that for one-shots.
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult." "Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?" "Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Bruno Panz-Jones
In article <33966E...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au>,
Keith Russell <ds...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>Suicide rates and emotional disturbances are high among silo operators.
>Submariners have no privacy, and there were many catastrophes in early
>Russian nuclear vessels at least. The pathos here is hate and angst.
>Boot-camp is the first step in generating really fucked up individuals.
>You have to be fucked up to include killing people in your job specs.
I agree that the shroud would be lower near missile silo control rooms.
But none of the submariners I know, and very very few of the other
soldiers I know could be described as 'really fucked up individuals'.
Most of my friends in the military are hard working, moral and very
concerned about human life. Many accounts of the Gulf War credit its
early end to the revulsion of the front-line soldier for the slaughter the
war had become, and the willingness of higher command to listen.
Deterrance exists because rational actors engage in cost-benefit analysis.
The costs of nuclear war are too high, and the benefits are destroyed by
the weapons. That's also why seven Justicars is enough to enforce the
Masquerade, even in non-Camarilla cities. Their very existance (and the
related Princes, Archons and Harpies) raise the cost of Traditions
violations far beyond the benefits. Deterrence only works because a
nuclear war is unwinnable. If nations (or people) are always trying to
maximize their security, they are not going to begin a war that will
eliminate them.
It's also why legions of fomori don't all just simultaneously descend upon
every garou caern one night. The costs are just too high.
Rob